S06.E10: Latching

[humbleopinion]

If a Girls Soundtrack comes out with the Marnie version of Fast Car and not Tracy Chapman's 1989 Grammy winning Best Female Pop Vocal of Fast Car, a song Chapman wrote then I'm going to have to ask you to pull the car over...

[guilfoyleatpp]

I was satisfied with this ending. It does seem like a coda to the penultimate episode.

I also wondered why Hannah was bitching about "still bleeding" and wearing underwear that made it look like she wasn't.  

Grover was almost 10 pounds.  Holy shit.  

I found her final freakout very selfish and Hannah-ish. And her meanness to Marnie was super post partum and sort of understandable, even if it was off putting.

And like PP said, I also discovered when I was dealing with a close family member's illness and death that sometimes people do the right things for the wrong reasons. And those reasons might bug the shit out of you, but the net is a win and for the best.

[humbleopinion]

Grover Horvath...no actual person with that name.

But fully expect to meet some little Grovers in the near future by parents who like the name.

[colorbars]

On 4/16/2017 at 11:40 PM, WhosThatGirl said:

I really wanted Hannah and Marnie to have a season 1 Dancing on my own moment. I wanted some other nostalgic scene besides the called for opening we got.

I was really hoping for something like this, but after the previous episode ended with the girls dancing (on their own, even), I kinda figured it wouldn't. But just something light in there somewhere would've been nice.

[DianeDobbler]

It's nothing new for shows to skirt over financial realities, but more than most shows, Girls only addressed it when convenient, and, IMO, didn't really focus on the real issues with not having money - the risk of being on the street and not having enough to eat. That's actually a thing. I'm sure most college educated young white girls in the position of the girls on "Girls" have a fallback, which = move home w/mom and dad. Hell, setting aside the suspicion that Jessa has at least a minimal safety net income somewhere - her grandmother is alive. And Shosh is her cousin (and Shosh's parents her aunt and uncle).  So as has been noted, the environment was "struggling to make it" but the options were "Born rich, and don't really know what that is."

Again "Chewing Gum" (now on Netflix) DOES know what it is, and follows the logical conclusions of actually not having money. And is still really funny with tons of story and story payoff. I never thought I'd be on the edge of my seat wanting to know what the hell happened to break up a couple when the break up happened (and the flashbacks were happening) in a homeless shelter. But Michaela Coel is that good.

On SATC, for me, only Carrie's financial circumstances were absurd. The rest were accounted for (assuming Charlotte came from money and was a trust fund baby - a safe assumption, IMO). Charlotte getting her first husband's family apartment in the divorce would never happen in a million, billion, gaztrillion years, but apart from that, the jobs the other three had or the circumstances they came from did allow for the lifestyle, except for Carrie. The taxis and drinks alone would have had her broke in two months.

I think the furniture in Hannah's fantasy house was meant to come with the house. A fully furnished, charming three bedroom with a fairy tale view came with the "professorship" offered to a woman with about 13 MFA credits because she was uniquely qualified to "teach the internet" to 17-22 year olds. A demographic that knows SO little about the web! (For that matter, what does Hannah know about it?)

[chocolatine]

35 minutes ago, DianeDobbler said:

A fully furnished, charming three bedroom with a fairy tale view came with the "professorship" offered to a woman with about 13 MFA credits because she was uniquely qualified to "teach the internet" to 17-22 year olds. A demographic that knows SO little about the web! (For that matter, what does Hannah know about it?)

I think that part was to show how out of touch middle-aged academics are supposed to be with technology that they think "the internet" needs to be taught to undergrads.

[Nordly Beaumont]

3 hours ago, humbleopinion said:

 

Grover Horvath...no actual person with that name.

But fully expect to meet some little Grovers in the near future by parents who like the name.

 

Huh, I never thought of it with Horvath. I kinda dig it. I know a Grover -  in his 30's, tall and lanky - it suits him.

[27bored]

4 hours ago, colorbars said:

I was really hoping for something like this, but after the previous episode ended with the girls dancing (on their own, even), I kinda figured it wouldn't. But just something light in there somewhere would've been nice.

Yeah, that would've been better. In fact, I kinda wish I had someone here to have a Dancing In My Own moment with. And yes, I mean that figuratively and literally.

[WhosThatGirl]

44 minutes ago, 27bored said:

Yeah, that would've been better. In fact, I kinda wish I had someone here to have a Dancing In My Own moment with. And yes, I mean that figuratively and literally.

Right? same. But I really wanted something from season one of Marnie and Hannah. I believed in their friendship in season one. And I don't think it's been the same since that season. I also think they were the only two who had a real friendship and actually cared about one another in an actual friendship way.

I'm not really sure about the others. I think Jessa liked that Hannah wanted to be her friend because Hannah made no objections about her adoration of Jessa. And Jessa loved that. Marnie was never like that with Jessa-although there was that one episode in season 1 but after that nada on that friendship and it always seems like Marnie is bothered by Jessas presence- and Soshonna was just kind of always just there. They never had any real use for her, except when they were using her, like when Jessa and/or Marnie needed somewhere to live.

But I think in the beginning Marnie and Hannah were actual friends. In my head canon because it was never actually stated how they met  they were roommates in college and therefore just decided to live together after. I do think part of the reason they were friends was also mutually beneficial to them: Marnie liked to mirror herself as opposite Hannah in the beginning, she had everything together and hannah was a hot mess and Hannah liked being a mess and not so type A and she probably liked that Marnie was always going to take care of things. By the end of season 1, Marnie was paying all the rent in their shared apartment while Hannah was jobless and Adam was staying over a lot. But I do think there were real actual friendship feelings there. I don't think Hannah admired Marnie the way she did Jessa at times. And then again I could go into an essay about when and why they should have cut off Jessa a long time ago.

[jeansheridan]

Whoever recommended Chewing Gum, thank you.

[selkie]

5 hours ago, chocolatine said:

I think that part was to show how out of touch middle-aged academics are supposed to be with technology that they think "the internet" needs to be taught to undergrads.

Never mind that so many typical middle-aged academics had Mosaic as their first browser and were previously heavily on the pre-WWW internet back when it was supposed to be for non-commercial use only. 

[wendyg]

4 hours ago, selkie said:

Never mind that so many typical middle-aged academics had Mosaic as their first browser and were previously heavily on the pre-WWW internet back when it was supposed to be for non-commercial use only. 

*Cello*. Please. (Actually, Lynx, even before that.)

[qtpye]

I think I realize why this episode bugs me so much.  It really does not feel like a finale, but an attempt at a back door pilot pertaining to a series where Hannah would be Gilmore Girling her way though a small town as a single mother.  It is like how the awful Dexter finale was kinda supposed to open the door to a series about Dexter's girlfriend and son traveling through Europe (so it was rumored).

"Goodbye Tour" serves a much better finale, and I think Lena said as much.

[WhosThatGirl]

7 hours ago, qtpye said:

I think I realize why this episode bugs me so much.  It really does not feel like a finale, but an attempt at a back door pilot pertaining to a series where Hannah would be Gilmore Girling her way though a small town as a single mother.  It is like how the awful Dexter finale was kinda supposed to open the door to a series about Dexter's girlfriend and son traveling through Europe (so it was rumored).

"Goodbye Tour" serves a much better finale, and I think Lena said as much.

It did feel like that. And JA and LD are saying things like "it's the spin off that is never going to happen episode". Which is like.. why did they even do it? It's always been clear that this is the end. I didn't hear any sort of rumblings of extending the story of this series with a spin off so.. this episode is way too open ended..

[Zima]

Unpopular opinion: Marnie is the best god damn character on this show. Her pretentiousness and insufferable personality make everything she does sooooo hilarious to me, and Allison Williams plays it all perfectly.  She was the bright spot in this finale.  Her vaping in the waiting room nearly had me in tears.  I also didn't mind the masturbation stuff. When she came out of the bedroom with her hair in child-like braids, and dressed in the most conservative pajamas I have ever seen, I nearly died with laughter. 

I absolutely hate baby story-lines, so this season sucked to me. I will miss the show though. 

[scrb]

1 minute ago, Zima said:

Unpopular opinion: Marnie is the best god damn character on this show. Her pretentiousness and insufferable personality make everything she does sooooo hilarious to me, and Allison Williams plays it all perfectly.  She was the bright spot in this finale.  Her vaping in the waiting room nearly had me in tears.  I also didn't mind the masturbation stuff. When she came out of the bedroom with her hair in child-like braids, and dressed in the most conservative pajamas I have ever seen, I nearly died with laughter. 

I absolutely hate baby story-lines, so this season sucked to me. I will miss the show though. 

My theory is that Alison was cast for her looks and Lena resented having to do so.  Over the course of the series, Marnie becomes more and more ridiculous as a character.  Of course Lena has a big hand in the direction of these characters.

In the pilot episode, she's the level-headed friend, whose boyfriend worships her and is the one able to pay the rent.  Then she progressively becomes as rootless as Hannah.

[DianeDobbler]

21 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

Whoever recommended Chewing Gum, thank you.

That was me. I hope you like it. Her stories pay off like a motherload. That's what kept me going when I got started on Episode 1. I read ahead to a synopsis of the season finale and thought - WOW! story! And the S2 opening is a gem .

[Snowball II]

1 hour ago, scrb said:

My theory is that Alison was cast for her looks and Lena resented having to do so.  Over the course of the series, Marnie becomes more and more ridiculous as a character.  Of course Lena has a big hand in the direction of these characters.

In the pilot episode, she's the level-headed friend, whose boyfriend worships her and is the one able to pay the rent.  Then she progressively becomes as rootless as Hannah.

I don't see how that would be evidence that Lena resented Alison.  If anything, it'd be more like a compliment.  Actors love having more to work with than just playing the good, responsible characters.

Edited April 21, 2017 by Hrairoo

[Keepitmoving]

Quote

My theory is that Alison was cast for her looks and Lena resented having to do so.  Over the course of the series, Marnie becomes more and more ridiculous as a character.  Of course Lena has a big hand in the direction of these characters.

In the pilot episode, she's the level-headed friend, whose boyfriend worships her and is the one able to pay the rent.  Then she progressively becomes as rootless as Hannah.

I think that was suppose to happen and has nothing to do with anyone's resentment behind the scenes. The Marnie you were introduced to was not real, she was full of shit and not together, none of them were and as we left the show they still weren't there. They still were all works in progress like we all are, but they were just stepping into adulthood. 

I don't think you're supposed to root for or necessarily like characters anymore. The Lena's of the industry aren't interested in you liking or rooting for characters, especially female characters, they are just telling their stories. If you relate at all then fine, if not, then so be it.  Most people IMO at one time or another if not all the time aren't likable, nor worthy of me rooting for, that's real to this viewer anyway.

I watched the Goodbye to Girls episode that HBO aired. Lena says something in the beginning of the show about what she hoped Girls did for girls/women, in that it made it OK for girls to yes, be bitchy, not very nice, sad, messy, etc. I can't remember her exact words, but I got the point. She didn't want viewers to like or root for the characters, I don't think that was her goal. Girls aren't always nice, good, sweet if they are at all, and that's OK, because that's real. It's this whole thing of girls/women feeling like they need to be apologetic all the time and never show an ugly side, nope, not real, not good. Lena showed part of Allison's audition, talked about how they bonded. Talked about how Allison asked to braid her hair and how Lena was embarrassed to let her because it was so dirty; but Allison I guess, figured that would be something that close girlfriend's would do, so she let her to do it while reading for the role.  Lena said that after Allison read for the role they were bonded, like sisters. Heck, I see folks post about how pretty they think not only Allison is but Jemima, and Jemima has been Lena's friend since they were twelve. She had to ask Jemima twice to take on the role of Jessa because Jemima was not interested in acting period. So I don't see how Lena would resent having to hire a female actress for her looks if you're implying that she would be jealous because someone was pretty?  Now I can see her resenting having to hire some girl for a role who TPTB saw as pretty, but she didn't read well for the role, she didn't have the chops in Lena's opinion, now that should be resented. Maybe that's what you mean.  Jenni Konner said that during that time, they weren't even pushed by TPTB to get a name/famous actor for any of the roles. I buy that even more so because they were on HBO.

[txhorns79]

Quote

I think the furniture in Hannah's fantasy house was meant to come with the house. A fully furnished, charming three bedroom with a fairy tale view came with the "professorship" offered to a woman with about 13 MFA credits because she was uniquely qualified to "teach the internet" to 17-22 year olds. A demographic that knows SO little about the web! (For that matter, what does Hannah know about it?)

I did roll my eyes at Hannah's living situation.  She had a lovely, fully furnished home and essentially free (mostly competent) child care for her newborn.   It doesn't get much better than that.  I did appreciate Loreen giving Hannah a giant reality check about what it actually means to be a parent.   

[sugarbaker design]

16 hours ago, scrb said:

My theory is that Alison was cast for her looks and Lena resented having to do so.

Isn't Lena the showrunner?  Wouldn't she have a say in casting?

[Snowball II]

16 hours ago, Zima said:

Unpopular opinion: Marnie is the best god damn character on this show. Her pretentiousness and insufferable personality make everything she does sooooo hilarious to me, and Allison Williams plays it all perfectly.  She was the bright spot in this finale.  Her vaping in the waiting room nearly had me in tears.  I also didn't mind the masturbation stuff. When she came out of the bedroom with her hair in child-like braids, and dressed in the most conservative pajamas I have ever seen, I nearly died with laughter.

A little late with this, but ITA.  I don't think AW is a great actress or anything, but she nailed it with Marnie.  I've met that girl before, many, many times. 

[txhorns79]

Quote

Isn't Lena the showrunner?  Wouldn't she have a say in casting?

My understanding is the network generally has the final say on casting. 

[luna1122]

I hate the idea that Lena--you know, the 'ugly' one--would be resentful and jealous cuz she had to cast a pretty girl. Sure, women can be that petty, but mostly, we aren't. And I hardly think Lena is. She cast her childhood friend, who looks, as she's put it, like Bridgette Bardot and a mermaid had a baby. Judd Apatow, according to the lore, is who spotted AW's campy Mad Men/Nature Boy video and called her in. I've never seen any evidence that LD feels any way about AW but affectionate.

I don't think AW is a great actress, but I agree that she nailed Marnie. I hated Marnie, most of the time, but that's because the actor did her job. She was also effective in "Get Out'. I think she has a good sense of timing, and an understanding of what's needed in a scene, most of the time, and a willingness to be ridiculous. I think she's fine. Also unpopular, I don't hate hearing her sing. She's got a perfectly serviceable voice. Also, I thought her line read of 'see, I just feel like you're both kidding' (I might not have the exact line/phraseology here) when Hannah told her that neither she nor Grover liked her singing was hilarious.

[Snowball II]

Good lord, I almost forgot about one of THE funniest lines from the finale, courtesy of Marnie.  When Hannah tells Marnie that Grover was the perfect weight, she says, "That's the best compliment a person can get!".   Never change, Marn.  Never change. ;)

[CofCinci]

5 hours ago, sugarbaker design said:

Isn't Lena the showrunner?  Wouldn't she have a say in casting?

Showrunners often have to give up battles (casting) to win the war (getting season deal or maintaining control of their series).  Tina Fey had to drop Rachel Dratch as Jenna from 30 Rock and replace her with Jane Krakowski.  They're powerless in other ways too.  J.J. Abrams was forced to cut many from LOST when he had a story in mind for the characters because ABC demanded.  There are some great books on the subject of 'showrunning', if you're interested.  https://www.amazon.com/Showrunners-Art-Running-TV-Show/dp/1783293578/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1492821538&sr=1-1

10 hours ago, Keepitmoving said:

Lena said that after Allison read for the role they were bonded, like sisters.

Didn't she shove rocks into her toddler sister's vagina?  I wouldn't want Lena to regard me as a sister.

[MrWhyt]

On 4/20/2017 at 8:20 PM, scrb said:

My theory is that Alison was cast for her looks and Lena resented having to do so.

because professional women are all really bitchy 12 year olds at heart.

[dinkysquid]

That was undeniably the absolute WORST SERIES FINALE EVER!!!!! I can't believe I invested six years to have it all end in such a shitty, careless, ridiculous manner, that just shows how little Ms. Dunham cares about her characters. There are so many really good shows that completely fall apart at the end - it's almost like the writers don't KNOW HOW TO END IT and boy, this was one of them!

Hannah has irresponsible sex with some hippy-dippy surf instructor/stoner, who may secretly be a towering intellect - but I seriously doubt it - and it turns out that hapless Hannah was using the "rhythm method" or "withdrawal" which everyone knows from the old joke "What do you call people who use withdrawal? Parents."I mean, if this is how Dunham chose her lead character to end up, how she got knocked up is irrelevant, yes? To say I found this rather lazy and thoughtless plot twist a surprise, is putting it mildly. I thought we were watching Girls here..not a fucking CBS soap opera where in this day and age, women are still ignorant when it comes to contraception. These are supposed to be smart, hip, 21 century New York women but one of them is too dumb to figure out that screwing without birth control, will equal a kid?!!! Could this situation be any more lame? And the "sperm donor"? Hannah refuses to let him into her life because she doesn't need one dime of child support from him. She's so stunned as to the never ending expenses of what having a kid entails, that one can just picture her, months/years down the line, serving him with court documents because she needs money. And the guy names it "Grover." Isn't that not only an ex-President, but also a Muppet? It's a good thing his eyes didn't land on a blender instead or the kid would be named "Cuisinart."

Other characters try to be the voice of reason, which really surprised me, seeing how their own lives are not exactly going well. Elijah, when he initially tells Hannah what a ridiculous idea it is and how Hannah will make a horrible mother. Well, truer words were never spoken. Hannah is a vapid, spoiled, self-centered, narcissistic, ditz who can barely take care of herself (the jury's still out on that one!). She can't take care of a bloody CACTUS for God's sake!! And now, she's supposed to responsible for a KID?!!!! Yeah...right. 

Even the doctor at the ER, who she "remembers", tells her to get an abortion. He hardly knows her but knows enough to see that this is a massive mistake. THIS WOMAN IS CLUELESS!!!! I'm surprised that she can even navigate the subway by herself! And you know, it's one thing to be this hip, cute single chick figuring out New York by living by her wits and it's another thing entirely when you are responsible for a screaming, crying, hungry baby, you can't make rent and you're out of diapers and baby food. And as far as going to clubs, gallery openings, parties etc. forget all that too. So how is this going to play out? Is her Mom going to come and live with her? Who's going to look after "Grover" when she's at work?

Now I know you are supposed to suspend all belief when you watch TV shows, but sometimes, it's really, really hard. 

How about just practical things, like where is she going to live, what is she going to do for money? Oh yeah...that was conveniently packaged up in the form of Hannah landing some obscure teaching job - even though she has no degree and where I come from, no degree, no teaching job - she will be "teaching people all about the Internet." Yeah...right. Who made that one up?!! And guess what? She's moved out of New York, leaving the place she swore she'd never leave, and now has a cute, fully furnished little house out in the middle of nowhere. I can see Hannah being happy here. Yeah...right.

I wasn't looking for a nice, little perfect ending to tie up all the loose ends, although after sitting through this train wreck, I wish now they had. It was depressing and what happened to these characters? Jessa, used to be such a foxy little minx. She looks terrible now and isn't Shoshana the miserable bitch of the year, with her ring and her "fiance?" So obviously she's off on her own. Marnie and Desi? Desi is a huge fuck up that Marnie does not need. Get Desi out of your life permanently. She needs to stop being such an uptight, rigid tight-ass and give poor Ray a chance. I used to hate Ray but he's grown on me.

Again, I felt that Dunham just didn't know how to end it all. I can imagine how daunting that is, a show you've been running for SIX YEARS and characters you've created and invested in but this was shit. It was so disappointing on so may levels. 

Now don't get me wrong - I LOVED this show - or else I wouldn't have invested six fucking years in it! I watched them all live, then would watch them again and THEN....binge watch all the seasons so I am not a viewer who didn't stick by it through thick and thin and I always enjoyed it. Until now. 

This ending does more than fail to satisfy me. It makes me angry....really angry. Angry because, I know that Girls is Lena's show, Lena's creation and therefore she can do whatever she wants with the ending, but this season really felt that it was thrown together with very little thought, consideration or care for the characters and their outcomes. Was she tired? Sick of doing it? Who knows. Maybe if she wasn't up to it, then hand it over to someone else. Don't do such a hatchet job on it. And I also can't help but feel she was thumbing her nose at us, her loyal viewers. Like she didn't care enough about us to give us a decent ending.

The only redeeming moment for me in all this? Was when Hannah and Adam realized that they are just no good together and that it is truly the end. Dunham was softly crying and it was truly a beautiful moment, in an otherwise abysmal ending.

Yep. I HATED it. Any thoughts?

[Snowball II]

I'm of the opinion that just because a series finale was not to my personal taste, that doesn't mean the show creator hates their fans or doesn't care.  I never understood that line of thinking.

[Brn2bwild]

On 4/23/2017 at 6:38 AM, dinkysquid said:

And the "sperm donor"? Hannah refuses to let him into her life because she doesn't need one dime of child support from him.

She didn't refuse -- she left it up to him about how much he wanted to be involved, and he chose to stay away.  Forever?  Who knows?  Where did you get the idea she refused??

[dinkysquid]

2 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

She didn't refuse -- she left it up to him about how much he wanted to be involved, and he chose to stay away.  Forever?  Who knows?  Where did you get the idea she refused??

Yes. She did! About three different people asked her about it and she was adamant that she didn't want ANYTHING from him - money, support, anything.

 

14 hours ago, Hrairoo said:

that just because a series finale was not to my personal taste, that doesn't mean the show creator hates their fans or doesn't care.  I never understood that line of thinking.

Well, I never understood people accepting a shitty, poorly written finale either. Dunham was lazy and showed zero creativity. Yeah....that shows that she really cares for her fans!!

Lena Dunham is a brilliant writer as she more than did prove throughout this show but this ending.....a fucking soap opera "accidental" pregnancy is pathetic. I half expected to see Victor Newman come and knock at the door. And it wasn't just her...the whole episode was depressing bordering on tragic. I know that life doesn't always have happy endings but this?!!! For someone who delivered consistent, sharp, edgy and intelligent writing, this was a massive let down.

Does that explain "that line of thinking?" Or perhaps it's simply one person's opinion. That's all. Nothing more.

Edited April 24, 2017 by dinkysquid

[luna1122]

11 minutes ago, dinkysquid said:

Yes. She did! About three different people asked her about it and she was adamant that she didn't want ANYTHING from him - money, support, anything

 

Well, I never understood people accepting a shitty, poorly written finale. Dunham was lazy and showed zero creativity. Yeah....that shows that she really cares for her fans!!

She DID tell people that, but then she called him anyway, and seemed deflated when he showed an utter lack of interest in the baby news. He never offered anything, so I don't think it's quite possible to say she refused it. maybe she would have, based on her earlier conversations, but the fact that she called him indicated, to me, that she might have changed her mind, based at least in part on Dill's comments, and  been open to/hoping for some kind of positive response/involvement from surfer guy. 

Some people liked the finale. I'm not one of them, but some did, so it's not a matter of them accepting a 'shitty' finale. They just have a different opinion of it.

[Melancholy]

I hated the finale. So fucking much. But then, I'll cop to the fact that I frequently disliked this series. I don't like being the girl who hate-watches and writes about it- but I guess I'm that girl...with Girls. Girls' hip place in the 2010s zeitgeist and a few genuinely good moments/stories where the series broke Stupid Form (mainly revolving around Sosh, Elijah and Ray) kept me hanging on. Also Per the Mad Men comparisons upthread, there's a magnetic suspense to a long running human drama featuring dysfunctional, poorly behaved  but privileged and charmed characters. There's big pressure to keep watching to see whether an ordinary life will end up a disaster or paradise or anything between because these assholes really can go both ways. Except Mad Men was basically always brilliant (imo through the finale). Girls just had a similar suspense working with Hannah in particular. But that increases how much of a betrayal a unrealistic, Mary Sue but EVEN STILL a cliched and totally Basic ending feels like. 

Edited April 25, 2017 by Melancholy

[dinkysquid]

Melancholy? Can I buy you a drink?

It was shitty. Really, really shitty.

[qtpye]

Lena is usually pretty decent as Hannah, considering she is not a professional actress.  However, I do not think she sold the emotions in this episode at all.  When Hannah started crying and Adam started backing out, it felt ridiculously abrupt and flaky.  Why the heck would Adam make this grand declaration of wanting to be with Hannah and then want to back out like a man drowning in quick sand?  If anything, the way Adam is, the more he would try to convince her that being together is the right thing in his usual strange and charming manner. 

The fact that it hit both of them at the same time that they should no longer be together seemed so contrived.  Also, they do not even need to be in a relationship for Adam to help out with the baby.  The fact that that moment was...we are never going to see each other again was overly dramatic and ineffective.

The one consistent thing about Adam, is for a weird guy, he does like to be needed.  He likes children and needy women.  Adam loves romantic gestures and showering women with affection.  He really would not give up so easily. 

[jeansheridan]

On Wednesday, April 19, 2017 at 11:00 AM, sugarbaker design said:

If they hadn't made their point in the narrative, who cares what they think?

Sometimes I like hearing why or how they made choices.  Like on the Hannibal DVDs they discuss the logistics of the murder scenes.  I may not agree with the creator but that's okay.  But I only do it for shows I love.  And I have never listened to any Mad Men commentary after season one because the gushing over January Jones was a bit much.  

[taanja]

On ‎4‎/‎20‎/‎2017 at 9:16 PM, Zima said:

Unpopular opinion: Marnie is the best god damn character on this show. Her pretentiousness and insufferable personality make everything she does sooooo hilarious to me, and Allison Williams plays it all perfectly.  She was the bright spot in this finale.  Her vaping in the waiting room nearly had me in tears.  I also didn't mind the masturbation stuff. When she came out of the bedroom with her hair in child-like braids, and dressed in the most conservative pajamas I have ever seen, I nearly died with laughter. 

I absolutely hate baby story-lines, so this season sucked to me. I will miss the show though. 

We are same-same!

Marnie cracks me up! And Allison Williams plays her like someone who isn't comfortable in their own skin. Perfection.

On ‎4‎/‎21‎/‎2017 at 9:07 AM, Keepitmoving said:

I think that was suppose to happen and has nothing to do with anyone's resentment behind the scenes. The Marnie you were introduced to was not real, she was full of shit and not together, none of them were and as we left the show they still weren't there. They still were all works in progress like we all are, but they were just stepping into adulthood. 

I don't think you're supposed to root for or necessarily like characters anymore. The Lena's of the industry aren't interested in you liking or rooting for characters, especially female characters, they are just telling their stories. If you relate at all then fine, if not, then so be it.  Most people IMO at one time or another if not all the time aren't likable, nor worthy of me rooting for, that's real to this viewer anyway.

I watched the Goodbye to Girls episode that HBO aired. Lena says something in the beginning of the show about what she hoped Girls did for girls/women, in that it made it OK for girls to yes, be bitchy, not very nice, sad, messy, etc. I can't remember her exact words, but I got the point. She didn't want viewers to like or root for the characters, I don't think that was her goal. Girls aren't always nice, good, sweet if they are at all, and that's OK, because that's real. It's this whole thing of girls/women feeling like they need to be apologetic all the time and never show an ugly side, nope, not real, not good. Lena showed part of Allison's audition, talked about how they bonded. Talked about how Allison asked to braid her hair and how Lena was embarrassed to let her because it was so dirty; but Allison I guess, figured that would be something that close girlfriend's would do, so she let her to do it while reading for the role.  Lena said that after Allison read for the role they were bonded, like sisters. Heck, I see folks post about how pretty they think not only Allison is but Jemima, and Jemima has been Lena's friend since they were twelve. She had to ask Jemima twice to take on the role of Jessa because Jemima was not interested in acting period. So I don't see how Lena would resent having to hire a female actress for her looks if you're implying that she would be jealous because someone was pretty?  Now I can see her resenting having to hire some girl for a role who TPTB saw as pretty, but she didn't read well for the role, she didn't have the chops in Lena's opinion, now that should be resented. Maybe that's what you mean.  Jenni Konner said that during that time, they weren't even pushed by TPTB to get a name/famous actor for any of the roles. I buy that even more so because they were on HBO.

I love you!

[Snowball II]

I don't know...this finale doesn't strike me as atrociously bad.  I liked it fine, but I understand why other people wouldn't.  Not much happens, it's a little boring, and yeah, it feels more like an epilogue than a series finale.  I get that, but there was nothing about it that seemed super shitty to me.  When I think of shitty finales, I think of Roseanne or Dexter.  Hannah struggling with motherhood and having an argument with her mother isn't the most exciting thing to watch, but the characters still acted the way they had always acted, and there were some funny lines in there.  I get being disappointed, but I don't get being angry about it.  YMMV, as always.

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

Marnie was the WORST but she may be the one of the best worst characters ever written and acted. I took too much joy out seeing her narcicism lead to situations and relationships blowing up spectacularly in her face because she of the writing and acting. It was awful and ridiculous but also the best awful and ridiculous. My dislike of the Marnie character paid off in the later seasons as she kept upon being so awful and causing awful things to happen to her with no self-realization (so they just kept happening). 

I think Marnie was written for us to love to hate. The best things about this show in the later season to me were Ray, Sosh, everything Elijah said, & loving to hate Marnie.

Edited April 27, 2017 by MyPeopleAreNordic

[lidarose9]

On 4/23/2017 at 6:38 AM, dinkysquid said:

Yep. I HATED it. Any thoughts?

I completely agree with you. A huge let-down. 

[booboopbedoo]

This left me unsatisfied and wanting to punch Hannah. Always all about her and what she wants and needs. Whining " Oh Poor Me".

Who was going to take care of Grover when she went to work? Why was Grover so dark? His Dad wasn't.

Grover will always be a Muppet character to me.

Did we really need to see her in all her nakedness again? Bleeding and no pad? 

[Winston Wolfe]

On 4/25/2017 at 11:42 AM, Melancholy said:

Also Per the Mad Men comparisons upthread, there's a magnetic suspense to a long running human drama featuring dysfunctional, poorly behaved  but privileged and charmed characters.

The Mad Men comparison is interesting mainly for one reason - even when there truly seemed to be happy endings for most of those characters, you just knew it wouldn't last.  Despite a lucrative moment of clarity, Don Draper would always be haunted by his childhood.  As couples, Peggy and Stan as well as Roger and Marie, they just weren't built for the long run.  Reunited Pete and Trudy had a 50/50 shot at making it work, IMO.  Except we never got to see any of that play out, the show runner left it to our imagination.  Lena, to her credit, showed us that her characters still had major issues (some more than others) that might take years to resolve, if they ever truly are.  I haven't always been a big LD supporter, but that was some bold, creative shit right there.

Edited May 1, 2017 by Winston Wolfe
Corrected because I somehow forgot the name of the great Peggy Olson.

[Melancholy]

32 minutes ago, Winston Wolfe said:

The Mad Men comparison is interesting mainly for one reason - even when there truly seemed to be happy endings for most of those characters, you just knew it wouldn't last.  Despite a lucrative moment of clarity, Don Draper would always be haunted by his childhood.  As couples, Betty and Stan as well as Roger and Marie, they just weren't built for the long run.  Reunited Pete and Trudy had a 50/50 shot at making it work, IMO.  Except we never got to see any of that play out, the show runner left it to our imagination.  Lena, to her credit, showed us that her characters still had major issues (some more than others) that might take years to resolve, if they ever truly are.  I haven't always been a big LD supporter, but that was some bold, creative shit right there.

I don't give LD such credit. Her ending still involved a big Mary Sue gimme to Hannah. There's just no way on this earth that Hannah ends up getting picked out of the clear blue sky to become a tenure track professor in charge of "teaching the Internet" with the corresponding comfortable income, beautiful house in the country, etc. Hannah would have to overcome some huge professional limitations that she's displayed throughout the series and seriously bid and work for such a position. I know people that are a thousand times the professionals and intellectual giants of Hannah that worked since childhood to become professors and they had to give up or they're adjuncts with insecure employment/income. Academia is that cut-throat. Putting Hannah in a comfortable place, financially and atmosphere and time-wise, to raise a child is an ENORMOUS cheat of epic proportions. That's not bluntly showing the character still had major issues. It's a fairy tale. Marnie's end is more disjointed but leaving her on a note of having some Pawn Shop Epiphany and then, a more flattering mode of behavior in the last two eps after the Pawn Shop Epiphany was also a cheat. Frankly, Sosh and Jessa were so underwritten from the last season and absent from the finale that I don't know that LD was deliberately writing that they still had issues so much as just not writing them this whole season. 

Meanwhile, I just thought Mad Men was complicated. All of the characters grew in different ways, buffered along by increasing standards of progressiveness in the 1960s. They also regressed or stood still in different ways. It did create a genuinely ambiguous ending for anyone. My personal canon includes success and failures in the future for all of the main players. That feels very true to life. However as opposed to Girls, every major Mad Men character had a big moment or more in the finale. Every major character had a clear story for the final season. No one got some unreasonable "professor gimme" that I wouldn't buy them getting a million years based on past performance. If growth was reasonably inferred from a character, it was based on actions over like a half a season or a season. Not a Pawnshop Lecture and more appropriate behavior in the last two ep. 

Edited May 1, 2017 by Melancholy

[qtpye]

14 hours ago, Melancholy said:

I don't give LD such credit. Her ending still involved a big Mary Sue gimme to Hannah. There's just no way on this earth that Hannah ends up getting picked out of the clear blue sky to become a tenure track professor in charge of "teaching the Internet" with the corresponding comfortable income, beautiful house in the country, etc. Hannah would have to overcome some huge professional limitations that she's displayed throughout the series and seriously bid and work for such a position. I know people that are a thousand times the professionals and intellectual giants of Hannah that worked since childhood to become professors and they had to give up or they're adjuncts with insecure employment/income. Academia is that cut-throat. Putting Hannah in a comfortable place, financially and atmosphere and time-wise, to raise a child is an ENORMOUS cheat of epic proportions. That's not bluntly showing the character still had major issues. It's a fairy tale. Marnie's end is more disjointed but leaving her on a note of having some Pawn Shop Epiphany and then, a more flattering mode of behavior in the last two eps after the Pawn Shop Epiphany was also a cheat. Frankly, Sosh and Jessa were so underwritten from the last season and absent from the finale that I don't know that LD was deliberately writing that they still had issues so much as just not writing them this whole season. 

Meanwhile, I just thought Mad Men was complicated. All of the characters grew in different ways, buffered along by increasing standards of progressiveness in the 1960s. They also regressed or stood still in different ways. It did create a genuinely ambiguous ending for anyone. My personal canon includes success and failures in the future for all of the main players. That feels very true to life. However as opposed to Girls, every major Mad Men character had a big moment or more in the finale. Every major character had a clear story for the final season. No one got some unreasonable "professor gimme" that I wouldn't buy them getting a million years based on past performance. If growth was reasonably inferred from a character, it was based on actions over like a half a season or a season. Not a Pawnshop Lecture and more appropriate behavior in the last two ep. 

I love everything about you post.  I wish I could replace you post with some of the "glowing reviews" I have read about this episode.  At the end of the day, Lena Dunham is wealthy woman of some privilege who has no idea how the world works.   In her circles, you get a professor job, because one of your relatives calls in a favor. 

I know she has had a fairly meteoric rise to success, but it was based on getting inside the head of your average millennial woman.  The average millennial is barely getting any recognition for a job, she probably has been underpaid for compared to her male counterparts, struggling with student debt, having to fend off relatives asking "why is she not married yet", and still probably does not have enough money to move out of her parent's basement.

She is not living in a fantasy land called NYC, where one can afford apartments in Brooklyn with very little financial stability.  If one decides to have a baby, a dream job with benefits will fall in your lap from an Academic Fairy Godmother.

People thought this show was going to be realistic with a touch of absurdity, mostly because of the gritty styles and showing the ladies "as less then perfect" in appearance and attitude.  However, at the end it was a fantasy piece in line with a fairy tales.  Mad Men was a great example about how well written characters (with the exception of Megan) should be written off.  They feel like real flesh and blood human beings who will go on making their mistakes, but can sometimes overcome their inherent flaws for chances at happiness.  The ending to Girls feels like....Lena Dunham only likes Hannah and wishes she does not have to share screen time with those other "annoying" actresses.

[Melancholy]

38 minutes ago, qtpye said:

I love everything about you post.  I wish I could replace you post with some of the "glowing reviews" I have read about this episode.  At the end of the day, Lena Dunham is wealthy woman of some privilege who has no idea how the world works.   In her circles, you get a professor job, because one of your relatives calls in a favor. 

I know she has had a fairly meteoric rise to success, but it was based on getting inside the head of your average millennial woman.  The average millennial is barely getting any recognition for a job, she probably has been underpaid for compared to her male counterparts, struggling with student debt, having to fend off relatives asking "why is she not married yet", and still probably does not have enough money to move out of her parent's basement.

She is not living in a fantasy land called NYC, where one can afford apartments in Brooklyn with very little financial stability.  If one decides to have a baby, a dream job with benefits will fall in your lap from an Academic Fairy Godmother.

People thought this show was going to be realistic with a touch of absurdity, mostly because of the gritty styles and showing the ladies "as less then perfect" in appearance and attitude.  However, at the end it was a fantasy piece in line with a fairy tales.  Mad Men was a great example about how well written characters (with the exception of Megan) should be written off.  They feel like real flesh and blood human beings who will go on making their mistakes, but can sometimes overcome their inherent flaws for chances at happiness.  The ending to Girls feels like....Lena Dunham only likes Hannah and wishes she does not have to share screen time with those other "annoying" actresses.

Yup. Most showrunners of prestige dramas and comedies are older. They had some time where they were toiling in standup or they were the unrecognized 12th most important writer on a series or they had other careers before getting into TV. There was a novelty in seeing how an unbelievably privileged twenty something approaches running a prestige HBO comedy (as like, her second project!) with fresh eyes. However, the freshness and arrogance of youth was the gaze-at-the-car-accident draw- not a particularly wise or battle tested view of life. Moreover, LD didn't have a youth that was tested through hardship lending premature wisdom or she's FAR from some Lin Manuel Miranda type genius amazing person who open mindedly sucks up such varied artistic lessons and life experiences with both humility and savant brilliance that she can be wise beyond her years that way. 

I predict Girls will age poorly. It's whole reason for being was to embody the trends and sentiments of a specific time period. It did that well. However beyond that, it was a sloppily written series with little else recommending it other than some great performances (Elijah, Sosh). And I don't see any sign that LD has learned much over the tenure of her show other than how to be a celebrity- how to dress on the red carpet, how not to make pedophilia or anti-Semetic remarks that offend her base, how to give better interview. But she learned nothing about how to be an ordinary person who truly has lived a non-celebrity, non-fabulously wealthy life. 

Edited May 1, 2017 by Melancholy

[wendyg]

Actually, one thing I liked about the way GIRLS ended was that so often in TV/movies characters with big dreams solve some personal issue and then achieve them - they write their breakthrough hit song, or whatever - and in GIRLS two of the four lead characters have those dreams and wind up having to accept they're not going to happen and build other lives than the ones they envisioned for themselves. Hannah is *not* going to be the "voice of my generation" or even "*a* voice of *a* generation". She's going to scrap along doing things she's not particularly qualified for because she's got just enough talent to keep herself visible and she's good at conning people into things. Marnie's big dream was to be a singer - and that's utterly failed. She may not go to law school, but going back to school and getting qualifications for a middle class sort of job may be her best option. Neither of them got the brass ring, and that seems very real to me.

Edited May 2, 2017 by wendyg

[SerenityNow721]

I binge watched the entire series, so I didn't see the characters unfold over several years.  That may not have been a good thing.

I loved Adam and Hannah together - I loved how, once he decided to be the boyfriend, he was all in.  I don't think people IRL get over that type of relationship easily.  I guess thats why i can't hate Adam.  I got really invested in his devotion to Hannah.  I'm just a total sucker for that kind of thing.

There was a time when I thought maybe Jessa and Adam got together and bonded because of their love for Hannah and the fact that they had each betrayed her.

Anyway, I would have totally bought a sister wives type of situation where the three of them lived together and raised the baby.  Why not?  It's not like any of them were conventional people looking to live conventional lives.  That's that he ending I would have loved.

Edited May 2, 2017 by SerenityNow721
Correction

[qtpye]

5 hours ago, wendyg said:

Marnie's big dream was to be a singer - and that's utterly failed. She may not go to law school, but going back to school and getting qualifications for a middle class sort of job may be her best option. Neither of them got the brass ring, and that seems very real to me

Marnie also hoped to marry well (someone with a little money)...I have a feeling that she has not given up on that dream, yet.

[Readalot]

Well that was a waste of my free HBO week.