S06.E12: America First

[ElectricBoogaloo]

SEASON FINALE!

Quote

Pieces fall into place.

Promo:

[Mabel]

 Alex Gansa on season's finale: 'I think first and foremost you have to look at the Peter Quinn-Carrie Mathison relationship. That was the first dramatic scene of this season, Carrie and Quinn together in that VA hospital. In large part, that has functioned as the emotional center of Season 6. One can expect that that relationship is going to come to some head in the finale, because that was the first and foremost idea we came into this season with — so there’s that on the table.

There is also how the show plans to dispatch this season’s villain, and this season’s villain is the deep state, that permanent government led by Dar Adal in collusion with Senator Elian Coto and with General Jamie McClendon. These people have been conspiring to first persuade a President-elect to change her mind about her policies, and then try to coerce her to change her mind about her policies. Now it looks like they may try to kill her in an attempt to change her policies. So that story is coming to a head and will be resolved one way or another in the finale.

Then finally, Saul Berenson and where he fits in. A man who has served as the moral conscience of the CIA in our storyline — in what way does he come to terms with his own agency and its checkered past and its current troubles? Where does that all come home in the end? That also will play a big part in this last episode.'

Full text here: http://deadline.com/2017/04/homeland-season-finale-spoilers-alex-gansa-emmys-claire-danes-damian-lewis-rupert-friend-showtime-1202064212/

[SimoneS]

I enjoyed this season a lot. Farewell, Peter. He was a great character. I will miss him. I am glad that Saul survived. l am glad that Max is alive.

I enjoyed watching Dar behind bars. I hope that he stays there, if only his part in Peter Quinn's death. It  was pretty obvious that his doubts about Keane will come to pass. I am just surprised that Carrie wasn't arrested as well. Can't say that I blame Keane for wanting her revenge and taking the opportunity to clean house.

I can't believe that the social worker hasn't been locked up for her role in the conspiracy. She seemed nervous during the visit too.

So the solicitor general wasn't a traitor, he was killed in the explosion.

Edited April 10, 2017 by SimoneS

[Deanie87]

Godammit. I know that Quinn was on borrowed time, but a lot of my interest in the show died along with him.

[Lemons]

Just now, Deanie87 said:

Godammit. I know that Quinn was on borrowed time, but a lot of my interest in the show died along with him.

I was hoping someone would write so I would know if peter made it before I watched. I couldn't handle the suspense.  That's too bad but they were torturing him so much!  It's not going to be as good without him. 

[Stealthy]

Quinn deserved better. I'm going to be super annoyed if they have Dar's doubts about Keane come to fruition, especially when Quinn died saving her life.  I don't know if I will be watching next season. 

[LoveLeigh]

I am very sad to see Peter Quinn gone... but that is not my issue with this season's finale. It was convoluted and layered with confusing intrigue. Who is this mysterious student Dar wants Saul to visit? Peter Quinn's long lost twin brother? Good way to bring back Rupert Friend.  

Who were the traitors dressed in camo who orchestrated a hit on the PEOTUS? Who was the kid in the photos that Carrie was looking at? Plus, the President's expression at the end makes me feel she may be a spy who won the election. 

Homeland probably will not be back until November 2018. So on to other shows that have more satisfying closure. 

Edited April 10, 2017 by DakotaLavender

[JocelynCavanaugh]

That was extremely stressful, but I'll probably watch next season. Rupert Friend is an excellent actor and Quinn was a great character, but he doesn't make or break the show for me.

I know it's not a common opinion these days, but I'm still rooting for Carrie. I just wish they hadn't saddled her with a child. It's been such a drag this season. Dear TV writers: a woman of childbearing age does not actually need to HAVE a child to be a well-rounded or compelling character. Give it a try sometime. 

[jacksgirl]

Was gonna binge watch the season, but with Quinn gone, I am out. Oh, and yes I read forums (and the last page of novels) first.

Edited April 10, 2017 by jacksgirl

[Stealthy]

6 minutes ago, DakotaLavender said:

Who was the kid in the photos that Carrie was looking at? 

Quinn's son, most likely. They've mentioned him a couple times, but I can't recall if we've ever seen him.

[MartyQui]

The kid was Quinn's son...he mentioned that he had one and he had "screwed up".    The student is Dar's boyfriend.  The guys in camo were Dar and McLelland's operatives...clearly they had a dark state going, and I guess next season will be spent figuring out how deep it went.

Great to see Linus Roache...last time he was on my TV he was dying in a Roman bath.

[LoveLeigh]

6 minutes ago, Stealthy said:

Quinn's son, most likely. They've mentioned him a couple times, but I can't recall if we've ever seen him.

Maybe that is "the student" Dar told Saul to visit. 

[Deanie87]

7 minutes ago, DakotaLavender said:

I am very sad to see Peter Quinn gone... but that is not my issue with this season's finale. It was convoluted and layered with confusing intrigue. Who is this mysterious student Dar wants Saul to visit? Peter Quinn's long lost twin brother? Good way to bring back Rupert Friend.  

Who were the traitors dressed in camo who orchestrated a hit on the PEOTUS? Who was the kid in the photos that Carrie was looking at? Plus, the President's expression at the end makes me feel she may be a spy who won the election. 

Homeland probably will not be back until November 2018. So on to other shows that have more satisfying closure. 

I thought that the person Dar was referring to might be a romantic partner of some kind.  The photos were of Quinn's kid. When he was originally introduced he had that Polaroid of the mother and baby. They did a good job with the the oldest photo, he looked just like Quinn. I wish they had explored some of that while he was alive. I would have traded a few Franny scenes for a little more Quinn backstory.

The writers were incredibly prescient this season but it ended up leaving a bad taste in my mouth. I guess they thought Hillary would win and then the 1st female president turns out to be both "soft" on foreign enemies but also perhaps dishonest and retaliatory, with Authoritarian overtones at the end.  Meh, real life is fraught enough these days without trying to figure out whether or not Homeland has an agenda.

[SimoneS]

I know that Homeland is going to sell it as Dar being right about Keane, but the way I see it, he and his conspirators basically validated her opinions about the intelligence services and created the situation where she got the power to expand the Patriot Act so she could take action against them. If Dar had listened to Saul when he told him that they would have to work with Keane and guide her when she is wrong, none of this would have happened.

[Lemons]

Didn't the president say something to Carrie about the Baltic states?  Maybe next season will show the president involved with Russia somehow. 

[grommit2]

Dear show runners and writers,

    You killed Peter.
    I will never watch your show again.

Bye

[Joimiaroxeu]

Even though this only a TV show it was still stunning to watch the attempt to assassinate Keane go down. However, it wasn't believable me that Keane would be so vulnerable. Seems like her inner circle was only one or two people. How does that work? The president should not be so isolated.

Aw, Quinn. At least Dar fcuking Adal ended up in prison. He'll probably weasel his way out though unless they give him the death penalty for treason.

Is there not a VP in this universe? Whatever, apparently COS Wellington is feeding Keane's paranoia. Keane just stays being somebody's patsy. I see an impeachment in her future unless she decides to arrest Congress.

Interesting that Carrie didn't tell the social worker she'd be working for the POTUS. Would that revelation have been a liability at the time? It certainly is now that Keane has gone off the deep end.

I think this would've made a good show finale had it not been renewed for two more seasons.

Bye, Rupert. We'll miss ya, buddy. Now go get your Emmy.

Edited April 10, 2017 by Joimiaroxeu

[numbnut]

Quinn's gone. *sniffle* They needed an epilogue before that six-week timejump. So why wasn't the Alex Jones character arrested for being complicit? And wasn't the child services woman doing Dar's bidding? It's like half an episode was edited out.

[TrininisaScorp]

I was heartbroken that Quinn died.  Seeing Rupert on the talk show circuit this past week made me worry about Quinn, so seeing it all come to fruition was sad.  I would like to think that Quinn didn't really die to save Keane, but to help and save Carrie.  This way when we find out more about Dar being fairly right about her (b/c...of course), it won't seem like my dear Quinn died for nothing.  That said at some point, his character was always going to die for Carrie; I don't agree with it, but that seemed to be the direction of Quinn for a couple of seasons now.  I truly hope Rupert gets some recognition b/c seeing his interviews and the clip at the beginning of Quinn prior to the saren and stroke were jarring to me, as I had gotten used to this Quinn.  Rupert has been amazing this season!

Carrie's reaction to the pictures of Quinn's son and the one of herself was heartbreaking.  I don't know that she knows how to grieve for him b/c like me, I don't think she understands a world without a dude like Quinn in it.  

Carrie's final scene look at the Cap with a sense of anguish and anger brings me back to Brodie's look at the Cap with the same feelings in season 1 (I think).  Does this mean next season is about Carrie sussing out if/how evil Keane actually is?  Is she "unAmerican" and an enemy, like Dar said?  Ugh.  I'm not sure I'm loving that, but Homeland brings me back each season.  

Edited April 10, 2017 by TrininisaScorp
She was looking at the Capitol, not the WH. My bad for not paying attention.

[Lemons]

32 minutes ago, numbnut said:

Quinn's gone. *sniffle* They needed an epilogue before that six-week timejump. So why wasn't the Alex Jones character arrested for being complicit? And wasn't the child services woman doing Dar's bidding? It's like half an episode was edited out.

Dar didn't need to let the child services worker in on the plan. All he had to do was file a complaint against Carrie and of course the "kidnapping" was all over the news. The phone call about Carrie's child being sick was done without the caseworkers knowledge 

I hope something happens to that Alex jones creep and Max is able to nab him for kidnapping and attempted murder. 

[Artsda]

Quinn. :(( He died saving a life he probably shouldn't have saved. He deserved a better ending. 

[LilaFowler]

I wonder if Dar Adal knew something about Keane before he put his big plan into action, something that he couldn't trust anyone with.  Maybe she is a puppet.  The first half of the episode was so exciting and then the last half was just... The writing was very uneven this season. I hope they right the ship and figure it all out before they start to film the final two seasons.  This would have been a good place to end it, actually.  I don't even see where they can logically and coherently take this.

[Bannon]

This season went off the rails, and nearly sunk as low as the abyss that we saw about halfway through season two, which the show didn't climb out of for a very long time. Truly awful writing, on so many levels. I think I'm done.

[nara]

2 hours ago, DakotaLavender said:

I am very sad to see Peter Quinn gone... but that is not my issue with this season's finale. It was convoluted and layered with confusing intrigue. Who is this mysterious student Dar wants Saul to visit? Peter Quinn's long lost twin brother? Good way to bring back Rupert Friend.  

Who were the traitors dressed in camo who orchestrated a hit on the PEOTUS? Who was the kid in the photos that Carrie was looking at? Plus, the President's expression at the end makes me feel she may be a spy who won the election. 

Homeland probably will not be back until November 2018. So on to other shows that have more satisfying closure. 

 

2 hours ago, DakotaLavender said:

Maybe that is "the student" Dar told Saul to visit. 

I don't think so. It seemed more put in to show Saul's reaction, or lack thereof, to Dar being gay. 

2 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I know that Homeland is going to sell it as Dar being right about Keane, but the way I see it, he and his conspirators basically validated her opinions about the intelligence services and created the situation where she got the power to expand the Patriot Act so she could take action against them. If Dar had listened to Saul when he told him that they would have to work with Keane and guide her when she is wrong, none of this would have happened.

They created the monster. She went to the exact opposite extreme of what they feared.

10 minutes ago, Artsda said:

Quinn. :(( He died saving a life he probably shouldn't have saved. He deserved a better ending. 

I think he was still right to save her. IMO, she only became dark because of the assassination ordeal. Dar probably sensed her weather vane attitudes, but I doubt she was a tyrant to begin with.

As much as I liked Quinn, I am glad they killed him. He had suffered enough. And I am glad the public knew he was a hero. I was hoping that Dar would die for Quinn, but the jail scene was pretty good too.  He looked pretty good for a prisoner. Perhaps he got some credit for warning Carrie and saving the president's life.

I was hoping for an assassination of the troll guy, but no such luck.

Looking forward to next season. I wonder if Linus Roache will be the next Big Bad.

[chocolatine]

Sad about Quinn's death, but not at all surprised. It was heavily foreshadowed all season.

How did Saul survive the car bombing? Wasn't he in on the first two cars that were blown up?

I can see the president wanting to clean house after what happened, but using Carrie to lie to everyone on her behalf was shitty. Use someone else for your dirty work who didn't just save your life.

The show has been renewed for two more seasons, yes? Is it too much to hope that there will be a 13-year time jump and Frannie is an adult in the next season, so we don't have to sit through any more of the tedious custody stuff? 

[nara]

2 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

How did Saul survive the car bombing? Wasn't he in on the first two cars that were blown up?

Saul was in the first car and it was the second one with the African American young man who was COS that was blown up. 

[chocolatine]

2 minutes ago, nara said:

Saul was in the first car and it was the second one with the African American young man who was COS that was blown up. 

Aw, poor Rob!

[Andromeda]

Very sad about Quinn.

As for Keane, to me it turned into a self-fulfilling prophecy. The trauma the anti-Keane people put her through would make any rational person look for conspiracies under every bush (or in every department). Thanks to Dar and his wicked cohorts, he gave her a healthy dose of PTSD, so now she's not acting rationally.

Edited April 10, 2017 by Andromeda

[slowpoked]

Yes, why wasn't O' Keefe arrested? Especially as the POTUS outed him during their interview as being the head of the troll department operated by people within the government. Was that place shut down? I'm thinking it would be and it would bring O'Keefe with it.

Ay, Quinn. There was really only one way that will end for Quinn, I would have called BS had he survived, again. But I wished we had actually seen his memorial.

This season had a lot of casualties - Quinn, Astrid, FBI Guy, Dar's hitman, Emons. When Dar had his last minute change of heart, I figured he isn't dying. Sigh, he really loved Quinn.

[NitneLiun]

As disagreeable as many think O'Keefe is, there is no evidence he had any part in a conspiracy to kill the PE.

As for shutting down the troll operation, there is still that thing called the 1st Amendment.

[numbnut]

8 minutes ago, NitneLiun said:

As disagreeable as many think O'Keefe is, there is no evidence he had any part in a conspiracy to kill the PE.

O'Keefe was involved with the assassination attempt -- he tried to hide it when Quinn's photo (on the laptop) tipped off Dar to the patsy scenario.

[Lemons]

2 minutes ago, numbnut said:

O'Keefe was involved with the assassination attempt -- he tried to hide it when Quinn's photo (on the laptop) tipped off Dar to the patsy scenario.

Plus the murder of the FBI agent who was investigating the troll building 

[econ07]

Why did the President offer Carrie a job just to in all likelihood rescind it after the last scene?  If she knew she would betray Carrie, why offer the permanent job?  What strategic advantage does it get her? 

[StevedeMena]

3 hours ago, TrininisaScorp said:

Carrie's final scene look at the White House with a sense of anguish and anger brings me back to Brodie's look at the White House with the same feelings in season 1 (I think).  Does this mean next season is about Carrie sussing out if/how evil Keane actually is?  Is she "unAmerican" and an enemy, like Dar said?  Ugh.  I'm not sure I'm loving that, but Homeland brings me back each season.  

I think Carrie was looking at the Capitol. 

[lullaby]

Quinn's death was awful, and not because he died, I was expecting that. All the gratious suffering since season 5 had to end.

But this death was so badly written I didn't feel anything, and he was my favourite character. Carrie was like "oh yeah, Keane, he's dead". Six weeks later we're told there was a memorial and Carrie didn't even speak. Dar was in jail. Quinn didn't have a lot of people in his life, so thanks for not showing that mess. Then she starts throwing his things in a trash bag, and yes, she starts crying when she notices a picture of herself. Didn't she know he deeply loved her?

 

Maybe I'm just in shock, but I think Quinn deserved a better farewell scene.

[albaniantv]

Painful finale. I knew it was time for Quinn to go --he was so unhappy in his current state--but still, it made my heart hurt when he took those bullets for Carrie and the President Elect. Agree with those who noted it's unlikely she would have had such a small circle of protectors, but at same time, I love that Quinn got to go out as a hero.

Loved when Carrie discovered her photo in the collection stored in Great Expectations (thanks Gansa) she did not pretend to be surprised that she meant so much to Quinn--good writing, there. It would have been much easier to make her act out ignorance. Next year maybe we will find out something about that boy in his photos, most likely his son. 

I was very amused by some stuff, but not sure how it was meant:

--Keane, who might originally have been written as a sort-of-Hillary-like -President, ends the season by "Locking them Up," all those folks in the govt and congress who might have had a hand in her assassination attempt; 

--General Jamie McClendon, weirdo conspiracy theorist, sure does look a lot like Michael Flynn, Trumpy's most recently fired conspiracy theorist;

--When Dar Adal handcuffed a chubby senator in an ice room, I kept thinking about ICE and, can't help it, Marco Rubio, Ted Cruz or Corpus, no Chris Christie (but this is no doubt my own affliction)

Finally, I don't like Keane much but it is so hackneyed to think of her as a Manchurian Candidate. Hope it is more interesting than that next season...

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Poor Rob! And poor Agent Thomas!

And fuuuuuuck, poor Quinn! He survived numerous near-death experiences only to be shot by a firing squad.

Honestly, after Quinn died, I wondered what the show was going to do for another half hour.

I couldn't with Brett Blowhard. Who gives a shit if the President put her hand on a bible to be sworn in?

Carrie wiping off her lipstick reminded me of the scene in My So-Called Life when she did the same thing. Hard to believe that was over twenty years ago.

Knowing that drunk Max was hiding in the basement, I was begging Carrie to turn on a radio or the tv just in case he made any noise during the home visit. It's a good thing that lady didn't ask, "Hey, what's behind that door?" and see the wall of crazy upstairs.

On a related note, I'm glad that Veep is starting again soon. When Carrie called to talk to Keane, I was imagining Sue dealing with Carrie's phone calls.

When Carrie found the pictures of Quinn's son, I thought she might try to get information from Dar or have Saul start digging for information so that she could find him. That brief clip of Quinn from S1 or S2 telling Carrie about his son was so jarring. I mean, he wasn't laughing hysterically but he looked so much less emotionally tortured than he has been for the last two seasons. As much as I will miss Quinn's badassedness, that is a guy who deserves to finally rest in peace. And at least he died a hero, not framed for the assassination of the President-Elect. Honestly, I just assumed that he would die anonymously (like in the dumpster in Berlin) so this was an upgrade.

[JocelynCavanaugh]

54 minutes ago, lullaby said:

But this death was so badly written I didn't feel anything, and he was my favourite character. Carrie was like "oh yeah, Keane, he's dead". Six weeks later we're told there was a memorial and Carrie didn't even speak. Dar was in jail. Quinn didn't have a lot of people in his life, so thanks for not showing that mess. Then she starts throwing his things in a trash bag, and yes, she starts crying when she notices a picture of herself. Didn't she know he deeply loved her?

 

In Quinn's goodbye letter to Carrie last season he asked her not to put a star on the wall for him or make a speech. She was honoring his wishes. 

56 minutes ago, albaniantv said:

Loved when Carrie discovered her photo in the collection stored in Great Expectations (thanks Gansa) she did not pretend to be surprised that she meant so much to Quinn--good writing, there. It would have been much easier to make her act out ignorance. Next year maybe we will find out something about that boy in his photos, most likely his son. 

I thought Claire gave us a bit of surprise there. Carrie can be pretty oblivious, especially when she's focused on a mission. 

I think it's assumed to be his son, since his name was John Jr. Quinn was known as John in whatever town that was that he had a kid in (Philadelphia? Boston?).

[chick binewski]

5 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Interesting that Carrie didn't tell the social worker she'd be working for the POTUS. Would that revelation have been a liability at the time? It certainly is now that Keane has gone off the deep end.

 

5 hours ago, numbnut said:

Quinn's gone. *sniffle* They needed an epilogue before that six-week timejump. So why wasn't the Alex Jones character arrested for being complicit? And wasn't the child services woman doing Dar's bidding? It's like half an episode was edited out.

I spent much of this episode scratching my head. The home visit was edited so oddly; between drunk Max (oh hi glad you're ok!), the caseworker's manner, the dialogue and the creaking Carrie heard upstairs it just didn't work.

2 hours ago, econ07 said:

Why did the President offer Carrie a job just to in all likelihood rescind it after the last scene?  If she knew she would betray Carrie, why offer the permanent job?  What strategic advantage does it get her? 

I left this season with a lot of questions about Keane's actual nature, but maybe she thought a job offer would be enough for Carrie to acquiesce to Keane's cleaning house? Or it had something to do with getting Carrie's take on the Baltic file?  

46 minutes ago, lullaby said:

But this death was so badly written I didn't feel anything, and he was my favourite character. Carrie was like "oh yeah, Keane, he's dead". Six weeks later we're told there was a memorial and Carrie didn't even speak. Dar was in jail. Quinn didn't have a lot of people in his life, so thanks for not showing that mess. Then she starts throwing his things in a trash bag, and yes, she starts crying when she notices a picture of herself. Didn't she know he deeply loved her?

Maybe I'm just in shock, but I think Quinn deserved a better farewell scene.

Yeah, having him slowly drive into a parked car was crap so I am choosing to believe his death was faked and/or his twin will be here next season to avenge his brother and tell Carrie to kick rocks.

I have a great appreciation for what must go into putting this show together but the storytelling for me this year was incredibly uneven and I found it almost impossible to focus at certain times. But I'm still all in for season 7.  

[Ina123]

46 minutes ago, JocelynCavanaugh said:

In Quinn's goodbye letter to Carrie last season he asked her not to put a star on the wall for him or make a speech. She was honoring his wishes. 

Yup.

[WaltersHair]

Too many deaths, plot too convoluted, no one comes out looking good.

And Quinn.

Not sure I'll be back.

They bring cartoon radio dude back, I'm definitely skipping out.

[RedFiat]

This show always entertained, except Season 3 when the character of Brodie stayed too long. This season for me was excellent in that I was so interested in the Quinn arc, he was more of a peripheral character in past seasons, but this was incredibly well done by Rupert Friend, and I really felt for him in the end and when Carrie happened to be one of the pictures he kept inside Great Expectations.  The fans wanted to see how a broken man could return, and for him to regain a lot of his insight and instinct was a great gift. 

Regardless of what we may think of Keane, he died protecting the elected president of the United States. That was his mission as a patriot. I am not so sure that Dar knows something, or that Keane was pushed into her actions because she fears for her life, but the show is reflecting that the deep state is real, and we really shouldn't be surprised by it, since we have a character in the White House who is at the very least sympathetic to countries who have never been so regarded.  It will be interesting the direction the show takes next season, but I for one still regard Quinn a hero, regardless of how the President is revealed. 

[Pallas]

2 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

When Carrie found the pictures of Quinn's son, I thought she might try to get information from Dar or have Saul start digging for information so that she could find him.

In season 2, off Carrie's and Saul's suspicions of this nasty pretty-boy Adal brought in for the Brody interrogation, Max and Virgil tossed Quinn's monk's-cell of a room. They found little but intruder alarms and the copy of Great Expectations with its letter containing baby pictures ("John Jr."), now updated. Saul then visited Quinn's ex-girlfriend, a Philadelphia cop who reported the visit to Quinn. Carrie now has the same information. Well, more. 

[SimoneS]

6 hours ago, slowpoked said:

Yes, why wasn't O' Keefe arrested? Especially as the POTUS outed him during their interview as being the head of the troll department operated by people within the government. Was that place shut down? I'm thinking it would be and it would bring O'Keefe with it.

I think it would be difficult to arrest O'Keefe just on suspicion of his involvement because he is a "journalist" even with her expanded powers under the Patriotic Act. She would need hard evidence against him. However, I am willing to bet that she got the FBI to crush his "sock puppet" operation and cut off any other sources of money that were funding him. That wouldn't have been hard to do since the funding was coming from the CIA. 

Let me add my voice to the "poor Rob." He was a good guy and loyal to Keane. I bet getting justice for him is one of Keane's major motivation in taking action against the conspirators and their sympathizers in the intelligence services.

I felt for both Carrie and Max who were grieving Quinn. Max seemed to be suggesting that people were turning Quinn into a hero. Maybe he would not have wanted that, but I am glad. He suffered and sacrificed for his country. It is only right that people respect and honor Quinn.

The only thing that rang false for me about the last two episodes were the large vocal protests against Keane. It is impossible that hundreds of conservative protesters could have such a large presence in NYC without hundreds of thousands of counter protesters coming in and overwhelming them.

Edited April 10, 2017 by SimoneS

[ahpny]

Unless it's later backed up by some intelligence not yet shared with us, Dar's take on the "unAmericanness" and "darkness" of Keane is puzzling. If Dar is such a sharp observer of peoples' inner character, why couldn't he see that those in his "modest" plot to pressure Keane toward their world view would never be content to remain modest? And why share Dar's take on Keane with Saul, and then have Saul locked up and unable to share it with Dar's professor-friend? I guess a lot can happen between now and next season.

Keane's turn toward the dark side reminded me of Dick Cheney after 9-11. Before he was VP, Cheney was considered a pretty normal, pro-business, middle of the road Republican not known to have any extremist views. He long served in prior administrations with no hint of anything out of the mainstream. After 9-11, became the epicenter the civil-liberties-be-damned world view. See the One Percent Doctrine. 

This plot was more personal than 9-11. While attempting to whack the President by hitting the White House was part of the 9-11 plan, that wasn't its sole focus. Indeed, its perpetrators considered it success despite the White House-bound plane's failure to reach its target. The assassination plot against Keane wasn't about sending message, it was about personally taking her down. It's credible that that should send her off the rails. And the talk show guy's complaint that Reagan didn't resort to such extreme measures after he was shot isn't fair at all. Reagan was shot by a lone crazy person involved in no conspiracy and for no particular political reason. Keane was targeted by a unprecedented conspiracy of high-level personnel in her own government who had nefarious political motives.

[Ottis]

2 hours ago, RedFiat said:

Regardless of what we may think of Keane, he died protecting the elected president of the United States. That was his mission as a patriot.

I don't understand how this unfolded. They escaped the 2 Delta guys, and were outside, in view of lots of people, when Quinn had to make a decision. Because the road was blocked in one direction, he drove toward the many soldiers/cops with guns. And he died. Question: Are we supposed to believe that all of those people with guns would shoot Carrie, Quinn and the president in the open like that (or that the 2 remaining Delta guys would)? Why not just get out of the car? Question 2: If we think that was too dangerous, how was driving a little ways past the blockade any better? He couldn't have gone far after being shot. The soldiers could have run up to the car (though they didn't). They weren't any more protected there than they were outside the building.

Yes, Quinn has issues and was in "protect mode." But it made no sense to me that it went down like that. If you buy that "protect mode" was the reason, then Carrie let Peter down. Again. 

Quote

I think Carrie was looking at the Capitol.

She was. Which made me think that she was thinking that, with the presidency corrupted, she now has to work with Congress to make things right.

Edited April 10, 2017 by Ottis

[RedFiat]

5 minutes ago, Ottis said:

Question: Are we supposed to believe that all of those people with guns would shoot Carrie, Quinn and the president in the open like that (or that the 2 remaining Delta guys would)? Why not just get out of the car

Yeah, we're forgetting the snipers on the rooftop aren't we?  They could easily take all three down if they were outside of the car.  Snipers as we know can fade into the woodwork and nobody would know the difference. No Zapuder tape.   The only way to get out was to get into the vehicle and drive.

Edited April 10, 2017 by RedFiat

[Ottis]

1 minute ago, RedFiat said:

Yeah, we're forgetting the snipers on the rooftop aren't we?  They could easily take all three down if they were outside of the car.  The only way to get out was to get into the vehicle and drive.

So wave over the people on the ground. Or hold your hands up and slowly guide the car to the people on the ground. Or yell to the people on the ground, "Hey, snipers are targeting us!" I mean, there were options. 

[Ina123]

2 minutes ago, RedFiat said:

Yeah, we're forgetting the snipers on the rooftop aren't we?  They could easily take all three down if they were outside of the car.  The only way to get out was to get into the vehicle and drive.

And the vehicle was bullet proof...or as bullet proof as it can be made. The windshield did finally bust, but it took a hell of a barrage.

[RedFiat]

1 minute ago, Ottis said:

So wave over the people on the ground. Or hold your hands up and slowly guide the car to the people on the ground. Or yell to the people on the ground, "Hey, snipers are targeting us!" I mean, there were options. 

Options that endanger innocent people aren't options.