S01.E06: Burning Love

[madam magpie]

27 minutes ago, sasha206 said:

Maybe I wasn't paying attention but what i don't get is if she went out to see Saxon, with gun in purse, after Maddie did her searches and told her where to find him, why wouldn't she have also googled him prior to taking off to see him?  Sure it's an unusual name, but wouldn't you want to be sure before to you drive off to confront someone that this is the right person?

And I know that she has told Maddie that she went with gun in purse to see him, has she actually ever said, "It was him?"

I'm with others who speculate that it was Perry that did the rape using Saxon as the name.  Saxon certainly didn't look like he knew who she was; hell, he seemed like he wouldn't even like girls.  Clearly the show is leaving that question open because seemingly there would be a conversation with Maddie that it was or wasn't him.

I think she did look at his picture online. I remember a scene with Jane, Madeline, and Celeste...at the coffee shop even, maybe...where Jane looked at picture but wasn't sure it was him. She wanted to hear his voice or smell him, I think (which sounds much weirder when I write it than when she said it on the show!).

Part of the problem (and part of her shame) is that she was drunk and may not remember things clearly. She knows she was raped, she remembers the shoe print, the sounds and smells, but the rest is fuzzy.

Edited March 28, 2017 by madam magpie

[Razzberry]

I'd be more willing to buy into Abby's alleged social activism as motivator if I'd seen one iota of it before this stunt.  I even went back and searched her bedroom posters - nada.   I tend to think she's a bit lazy and doing it for attention.

[humbleopinion]

Platinum Vageen for auction...NIB

[Razzberry]

Lady Gaga for potus 

[Razzberry]

1 minute ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

Why would a lazy teen set up a web site for a cause?  Attention seeking, sure.  Is sitting in a chair evidence of laziness?

No, that's just the only screenshot I had of her this episode.  If there were other mentions of AI I completely missed it.

[heatherchandler]

On 3/26/2017 at 9:40 PM, madam magpie said:

 

That said, I fully expected Ziggy to ask her how women eat with eggs and babies in their bellies.

I showed my 3 year old son a picture of myself when pregnant with him, and I told him that he was in the picture, but in my belly!  "You ate me???" was his response.  

[kokapetl]

2 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

Yeah, people are always commenting on how she looks just like her 17 year old daughter.

[Mabinogia]

2 hours ago, Atlanta said:

I love Mark Ruffalo.  But I think he's too smoldering sexy for that role.

I had to look him up to make sure it was who I thought it was because smoldering and sexy are not words I think of when thinking of Mark Ruffalo. Of course I don't think smoldering with Adam Scott either. He has a more boy next door appeal which makes him quite perfect as Ed. If I had to guess I would have said Ed was younger than Madeline, but that is more because he's in a young industry, wed design, and usually in casual clothes while she is drinking with the girls in her fancy dresses making her seem older.

I think it was incredibly selfish, though she probably didn't mean it to be, of Madeline to tell her daughter about the affair. So now Abby has to look her step-dad in the eyes knowing his wife betrayed him and she's supposed to just keep it to herself. That is not a position any parent should put their child in.  The more I see of Madeline the more I think she's probably the worst mother on the show. Not that she's horrible, but she is not the best mother on the show. Her motives always seem to not really be about children.

[Atlanta]

1 minute ago, Mabinogia said:

I had to look him up to make sure it was who I thought it was because smoldering and sexy are not words I think of when thinking of Mark Ruffalo. Of course I don't think smoldering with Adam Scott either. He has a more boy next door appeal which makes him quite perfect as Ed. If I had to guess I would have said Ed was younger than Madeline, but that is more because he's in a young industry, wed design, and usually in casual clothes while she is drinking with the girls in her fancy dresses making her seem older.

I think it was incredibly selfish, though she probably didn't mean it to be, of Madeline to tell her daughter about the affair. So now Abby has to look her step-dad in the eyes knowing his wife betrayed him and she's supposed to just keep it to herself. That is not a position any parent should put their child in.  The more I see of Madeline the more I think she's probably the worst mother on the show. Not that she's horrible, but she is not the best mother on the show. Her motives always seem to not really be about children.

Sasha206 said that. :)

[Mabinogia]

Sorry, I still can't quite get the whole quoting system on this site. Sometimes it works for me, sometimes it goes awry.

[Clanstarling]

28 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

I had to look him up to make sure it was who I thought it was because smoldering and sexy are not words I think of when thinking of Mark Ruffalo. Of course I don't think smoldering with Adam Scott either. He has a more boy next door appeal which makes him quite perfect as Ed. If I had to guess I would have said Ed was younger than Madeline, but that is more because he's in a young industry, wed design, and usually in casual clothes while she is drinking with the girls in her fancy dresses making her seem older.

I think it was incredibly selfish, though she probably didn't mean it to be, of Madeline to tell her daughter about the affair. So now Abby has to look her step-dad in the eyes knowing his wife betrayed him and she's supposed to just keep it to herself. That is not a position any parent should put their child in.  The more I see of Madeline the more I think she's probably the worst mother on the show. Not that she's horrible, but she is not the best mother on the show. Her motives always seem to not really be about children.

My father did that to me. Not entirely the same sort of confession, but close. It was horrible.

15 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

Sorry, I still can't quite get the whole quoting system on this site. Sometimes it works for me, sometimes it goes awry.

What I've found is that if you use multi-quote, you won't have a problem. But if you quote either by highlighting, or single quote, you need to make sure you put a space (or word) after the quote. Otherwise,  the next time you quote, it replaces the contents of the first quote, but doesn't change the attribution.

[sasha206]

31 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

I had to look him up to make sure it was who I thought it was because smoldering and sexy are not words I think of when thinking of Mark Ruffalo. Of course I don't think smoldering with Adam Scott either. He has a more boy next door appeal which makes him quite perfect as Ed. If I had to guess I would have said Ed was younger than Madeline, but that is more because he's in a young industry, wed design, and usually in casual clothes while she is drinking with the girls in her fancy dresses making her seem older.

Ha, now that I see recent photos of him, I withdraw smoldering and sexy.  But I thought he was hot in the move "You Can Count on Me" and was young! 

[Clanstarling]

19 minutes ago, sasha206 said:

Ha, now that I see recent photos of him, I withdraw smoldering and sexy.  But I thought he was hot in the move "You Can Count on Me" and was young!

Just goes to show how different tastes are - I've only recently started to think of him as sexy. I didn't find him at all sexy when he was younger.

[sasha206]

Just now, Clanstarling said:

Just goes to show how different tastes are - I've only recently started to think of him as sexy. I didn't find him at all sexy when he was younger.

How funny!

[susannot]

Neither Mark nor Adam are sexy in my opinion.  I've always been drawn to tall blond men so....(cringing)  Alexander.

[Clanstarling]

I like men with lived in faces. Which isn't to say AS hasn't drawn my eye, or that the occasional pretty man doesn't appeal.

Edited March 28, 2017 by Clanstarling

[Mabinogia]

Thinking about it, I don't find any of the guys on the show that sexy. I'm picturing each of them and oddly, I can't really say what Perry looks like. I mean, I know he's tall and blonde but I feel like we don't really see him the way we do the other men. For me he's almost just this vague outline of a good looking man. I find Ed more attractive because of his personality than his looks. I don't care for Nathan physically or personality-wise. And Renata's husband, though I find the actor physically attractive, he always comes off as slightly douchey to me. The coffeeshop guy is adorable, probably because he is this safe haven and just very normal and, from what we see, uncomplicated. I can't picture him to save my life, but I like him better than most of the husbands.

[txhorns79]

Quote

I've been thinking about this some more. I wonder if there's some sexual abuse in Bonnie's past, and that's why she seems more zen about Abigail's project than the other adults. Not because she agrees with the way Abigail is doing things, but because she feels strongly about the cause and touched that Abigail cares about it. I feel like there's some mystery around Bonnie still to be revealed.

I feel like Bonnie doesn't get it because it's not her daughter, and she views Abigail more like a friend/peer than a teenager needing guidance.  

[tennisgurl]

4 hours ago, stillshimpy said:

Heh.  Maybe the Monterey tourism board suggested that, "Uh...so...if you're going to say the name of our town eleventy billion times, maybe you could include at least one character who isn't a complete butt munch?  That would be swell."   

I do wonder what Monterey thinks about this show, considering how often they mention the name of the town and how its clearly set in a real place. On the one hand, its clearly beautiful with lots of amazing views, beach front property, and kids who jam to the same music their parents grew up with. On the other hand, its filled with domestic abusers, children who abuse other children and no one can stop it, affairs, passive aggressiveness, back stabbing, and possibly a rapist or two. So...do you want to visit?

[Stella]

1 hour ago, Mabinogia said:

Thinking about it, I don't find any of the guys on the show that sexy. I'm picturing each of them and oddly, I can't really say what Perry looks like. I mean, I know he's tall and blonde but I feel like we don't really see him the way we do the other men. For me he's almost just this vague outline of a good looking man. I find Ed more attractive because of his personality than his looks. I don't care for Nathan physically or personality-wise. And Renata's husband, though I find the actor physically attractive, he always comes off as slightly douchey to me. The coffeeshop guy is adorable, probably because he is this safe haven and just very normal and, from what we see, uncomplicated. I can't picture him to save my life, but I like him better than most of the husbands.

Personally I find Joseph the most attractive guy on this show, and my daughter tells me his real life accent is swoon worthy!

But I do agree with your assessments about Nathan and Gordon.

And I get what you mean about visualizing Perry. I've noticed he is often filmed from a slightly peculiar angle with his head a little tilted down or slightly sideways. Sometimes in that posture he comes off a little bit like an ashamed boy asking his mama's forgiveness.

[Razzberry]

33 minutes ago, Stella said:

And I get what you mean about visualizing Perry. I've noticed he is often filmed from a slightly peculiar angle with his head a little tilted down or slightly sideways. Sometimes in that posture he comes off a little bit like an ashamed boy asking his mama's forgiveness.

Perfect description. It will take me a while to exorcise Perry from my mind.  I hope his next big role is of a decent man.

[Lemons]

8 hours ago, Cardie said:

That's the European style and Skarsgard was born in Sweden. Americans do the switching hands deal. Were you raised by European parents?

ETA: Oops, sorry for hitting quote function before ascertaining that others had explained this.

As for the ocean as metaphor, it has seemed to me to connote all the secrets and lies that roil beneath the placid surfaces the women try to present.

A French Canadian mother does that count?  i always thought I was the only one and my manners must be horrible. I'm gonna have to watch my sisters eat instead of stuffing my own face next time I'm with them. 

[Gem 10]

On March 26, 2017 at 10:13 PM, CleoCaesar said:

I'm so sad there's only one episode left.

The Celeste/Perry scenes make me anxious and uncomfortable. Probably like they're intended to.

Once again for me the highlight of the episode were the therapy sessions. Just fantastic acting and Robin W. is incredible. She makes it feel like the producers grabbed a real therapist and cast her on a TV show. She sounds completely authentic.

I agree about the scenes with Perry and Celeste.   Whenever I see Perry, he's after her like a starving animal pouncing all over her.   He's a sick bastard.   Nicole Kidman is a good actress, but i don't understand her ease in taking her clothes off in a lot of her movies IMO.  And, that scene in the shower a few episodes back .. Even my husband of many years was stunned.

[Clanstarling]

44 minutes ago, Gem 10 said:

Nicole Kidman is a good actress, but i don't understand her ease in taking her clothes off in a lot of her movies IMO.  And, that scene in the shower a few episodes back .. Even my husband of many years was stunned.

Showing she still has the goods at 50 (well almost). More power to her.

[FemmyV]

5 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

The show has shown that Abigail is taking on a lot of Bonnie's values.  

Do Bonnie's values include getting an appearance on CNN? Abby's strategy is kind of dependent on that. But millennial.

Quote

It will take me a while to exorcise Perry from my mind.  I hope his next big role is of a decent man.

Well there's Tarzan. Kind of cheesy but it does involve a lot of shirtlessness.

Going back a couple pages ...

23 hours ago, madam magpie said:

She also really needs help figuring out how to tell Ziggy the truth in age-appropriate ways. I'd love to see that evolve and wish there were time for her to go back to that child psychologist to sort it out.

I can't imagine there is any way to tell a child they're the product of a rape, that's not going to do some damage once it starts to sink in. People whose existential crises start early in life tend to be very interesting, but people without seem to be a lot happier.

[madam magpie]

Just now, FemmyV said:

I can't imagine there is any way to tell a child they're the product of a rape, that's not going to do some damage once it starts to sink in. People whose existential crises start early in life tend to be very interesting, but people without seem to be a lot happier.

If Jane continues to evade and ignore his questions, that will also do damage. Secrets like this can wreck people. Ziggy clearly knows something is up. He also knows that the something is bad, hence "maybe his dad is Darth Vader." Working with a child psychologist to explain to him that his father hurt his mother and that's why they're not together is really the only solution I can see. He's six; he doesn't know what rape is, and there's no need to lead with that. He does understand hurting people, and he's empathetic. If Jane makes up a lie, he will eventually grow up and find her out. That will be crushing.

Jane would have to be able to pull it off calmly, though. She'd have to field questions like "How did he hurt you," "Did you love him," "Why did he do that," "Why doesn't he want me," etc. She doesn't strike me as there yet. But her own therapist could also help her sort out what she wants to say in the meantime. (Since there's only one episode left, though, my guess is we'll never get to see this anyway.)

[madam magpie]

11 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

In Jane's shoes, I don't think I would mention rape or violence at all.  I would just say it was a brief encounter and Jane didn't want anything further or really know how to find him if she ever did, but that in no way lessened her love for Ziggy, etc., etc.  

She seems to be trying that actually, saying a lot of "I don't know" or one time even "You know I don't know" when Ziggy asks her questions, implying that this has been building for awhile. He clearly doesn't believe her. She doesn't seem to be trying to forge a relationship with him where she falls back on, "That's grown-up stuff, inappropriate for kids." I hate that crap, but if she were choosing that parenting approach, she could maybe continue to evade. Instead, she's open with him about everything else, so he knows she's lying. He knows there's more to it. That's why he pushes. And the fact that this questioning is really the only time she EVER yells or gets angry with him? He already knows it's bad. As is, it's also a secret, which is awful for a kid to carry. 

Edited March 29, 2017 by madam magpie

[FemmyV]

She needs to make up something with no loose ends, and stick to it.

[CofCinci]

4 hours ago, susannot said:

Neither Mark nor Adam are sexy in my opinion.  I've always been drawn to tall blond men so....(cringing)  Alexander.

I'm not kicking any of these men out of bed for eating crackers -- except for James Tupper. He belongs to Anne Heche and I wouldn't want to anger that beast. 

[madam magpie]

20 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

They are similar but I think there's a difference between "I don't know" and "It was a short relationship and he's gone for good; I'm sorry, I can't tell you anything about him."  One makes it clear she's not evading or procrastinating.  

Maybe, though "I don't know" seems pretty specific. Even so, your approach would be flat-out lying. Jane doesn't strike me as the type of parent who wants to lie to her kid about anything, much less something as important as who his father is. She seems super into the two of them trusting each other; it's come up a couple of times. Lying to Ziggy about this would wreck their relationship if he ever found out, and I'm not sure Jane could live with the guilt. She'd fold eventually and then have to deal with the fallout. Children can't be protected from the world, and the reality is that some kids have to cope with ugly things sooner than others. Ziggy would be in a fairly lucky position because he has a mother who adores and supports him and would fall all over herself to help him through it. But lying about how he came to be? I can't support that, and more importantly, it doesn't fit with the character of Jane.

Edited March 29, 2017 by madam magpie

[Cardie]

2 hours ago, Lemons said:

A French Canadian mother does that count?  i always thought I was the only one and my manners must be horrible.

I think the American method of knife and fork handling is the exception rather than the rule. I do believe Canadians eat in the European style. I have adopted it myself because it makes so much more sense than all the utensil switching Americans do.

[madam magpie]

17 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

To me, that's not lying.  She really can't tell him anything about the guy.  She doesn't even know his real name at this point in the story.  All she could tell him about him was he raped her and I don't think omitting irrelevant, painful details is lying.  I don't know anything about how the sex was the night I was conceived.  There's stuff better kept quiet and it's not a lie.  

If the bio-dad rapist bites it next week, in Jane's shoes I might decide to tell more details, depending.  

Why would it matter if he were dead? Except that I guess she could just try to tell Ziggy his father was dead and hope he didn't press for details.

Jane didn't have a relationship with the rapist at all. That's absolutely a lie. 

If Jane were the type of character who wanted to lie to her son and she'd been doing that all along, it might work. But she's not. She's been as honest as she can without details. "I don't know who, what, or where he is" is 100% true. It's not working. Ziggy already knows something is wrong. He already thinks his father is dangerous. Jane has been (understandably) unable to hide that from him, even as she's tried. Lying is an approach that may have worked at the start if she'd really committed to it, but when we meet the characters, they're already past it. I really wish we could get a second season to see how all that plays out. I'd love to know what her parents think happened too. Did she lie to them? Maybe said it was a one-night stand? But alas...

Edited March 29, 2017 by madam magpie

[madam magpie]

1 hour ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

If it turned out he's Perry and he's dead because someone finds out he's the rapist, Ziggy probably stands to inherit something and Jane also has no more concern about the guy possibly getting parental rights.  So I might tell more in that case, in her shoes.  Because the whole murder/inheritance thing would need explained.  

Jane's relationship with the rapist was one night.  They had drinks in the hotel bar then went up to his room.  I also used the word 'encounter'.  I'm not suggesting she sugarcoat that it was a one night stand, just give it a less 'adult'/pejorative name and leave out the violence (as the story stands now, without any dead rapist on her hands).  

It's just literally 'what I would do'.  I don't know why what I would do is up for moral scrutiny or being compared to what Jane is the type of person to do?  

I thought we were talking about Jane? 

I wouldn't say she had relationship with the rapist at all, no. Not short, or one night, or five minutes. None. He picked her up in a bar, got her drunk (underage, no doubt), and raped her. That's it.

Don't get me wrong...I don't think she should tell Perry! (We all think it's him, right?? I don't know any spoilers.) That asshole doesn't need to know a damn thing, and if I were talking to Jane, I'd absolutely say she should hide whatever she needed to or lie to whomever necessary in order to keep her kid to herself. The law would not be on her side here, so the hell with them. Ziggy should belong to her alone. My thoughts were entirely related to the questioning she was getting from Ziggy about his father and the only plausible way I see for her to address it. But I get that others disagree. That's how it goes...

In other news, I found that scene where Madeline says the barista is gay. Neither Celeste nor Jane believes her! Jane is surprised and goes, "Really??" Celeste says, "Come on." So I'm reading that like Madeline's just gossipy and has no idea if what she's saying is true or not. (When Jane and the cutie barista get together in the sequel, they can laugh about how Madeline thinks he's gay. :)

Edited March 29, 2017 by madam magpie

[Llywela]

6 hours ago, Stella said:

Personally I find Joseph the most attractive guy on this show, and my daughter tells me his real life accent is swoon worthy!

Oh yes, very much so!

Someone also commented up-thread on how we rarely seem to get a good look at Perry, so that mostly what we see is a vague outline, and I think that's true. Maybe because most of his scenes are told from Celeste's point of view, and she's quite cowed at this point, rarely looks at him directly, it's more fleeting glances. Which ties in with her very soft voice to create a very specific image of her as a person.

There's so much still to resolve - I can't imagine how they are going to cram it all into an hour.

Edited March 29, 2017 by Llywela

[chocolatine]

I have absolutely no experience with this, but would it do lasting damage to Ziggy if Jane told him that his father had been "mean" or "a bully" to her, which is why she has no contact with him, to keep her and Ziggy safe? As has been said, Ziggy already thinks his father is Darth Vader, so how much worse can it get? That way Jane would tell him the truth in an age-appropriate way, and he wouldn't feel like she's keeping something from him.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

15 hours ago, stillshimpy said:

The character I can't figure out for love nor money is the barista at the coffee place they all go to.  The guy pops up kind of a lot, chimes in when it seems an odd thing to have him doing and I can't figure out what purpose he could be serving.  To show that they are all the type of people, despite privilege, to get to know people they see on a regular basis, regardless of status?  Is that it?  Is it supposed to be a character note for Madeline?  

Genuinely asking here because I've noticed him before and he unexpectedly chimed in on Jane's residency status there and offered to help get her name out for bookkeeping too.   Is he supposed to be representing some kind of warm and welcoming, west coast acceptance, or something? 

He hasn't shown up in the police interviews, has he? 

I think part of his purpose is to show that even before Jane came to town, Madeline was a regular at the cafe. I know there are places I've frequented where they know my name, what I like (sometimes to the point where they made my favorite thing when they saw me pulling into the parking lot), my birthday, like A LOT because I was there so often and I chatted with the employees. I don't think it's necessarily to show anything about Madeline and Celeste being nice to people who aren't as rich as they are.

But maybe it's to show another aspect of the gossipy people in town. I don't recall seeing him in the police interviews, but Madeline, Celeste, and Jane are shown talking about personal things (and not in whispers) in a public place. As we saw in the episode with the car accident, the barista isn't the only one at the cafe who knows them. Harper was there and made some comment about wondering why Madeline was talking to the director guy (yes, it's SO suspicious for two co-workers to be seen having a conversation in public - insert eyeroll). We've seen how gossipy and judgmental the Greek chorus is so it seems that their impressions aren't based solely upon what they see at pickup/dropoff times at school.

Heh, or maybe he's just supposed to be the one person in town with a penis who isn't a complete dick.

[txhorns79]

Quote

I have absolutely no experience with this, but would it do lasting damage to Ziggy if Jane told him that his father had been "mean" or "a bully" to her, which is why she has no contact with him, to keep her and Ziggy safe? As has been said, Ziggy already thinks his father is Darth Vader, so how much worse can it get? That way Jane would tell him the truth in an age-appropriate way, and he wouldn't feel like she's keeping something from him.

I think he's pretty young to be told anything besides the fact that his father is not in the picture, and there is no expectation he will be in the picture.  I also think Jane is a very private person, and she knows that Ziggy might end up repeating anything she tells him about his father to other people.  With that in mind, I don't think she would tell him anything that could get back to her.     

[Ina123]

If it were me it would be imperative that no one ever know who Ziggy's father is, simply because I would never want the rapist to know that Ziggy exists. Rapists who father a child of the rape have actually sued for parental rights. I would never risk that.

http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21607887-when-alleged-rapists-sue-parental-rights-question-proof

[LucyHoneychrrch]

In a show full of people who have terrible secrets and make terrible decisions, what is most surprising to me is that the character I have the most visceral abhorrence to is Bonnie.

We see all these characters do terrible things -- Maddy has an affair, Joseph nearly stalks her, Jane makes decisions about what to tell Ziggy that are clearly divisive among the viewers, Celeste stays with an abuser, Perry is an unrelenting sociopath, Renata overreacts, Nathan is a horrible people-pleaser. But frankly, Bonnie is, to me, the WORRRSTTTT.

She kind of flits along the periphery of all of this, making jewelry, staying quiet, and does not once that we've seen ever own her role in either the strain between Nathan and Maddy or Abigail's newfound social awareness. She very clearly knows that her influence over Abigail is massive; but she neither acknowledges this to Nathan and Maddy, nor does she attempt to use it as a bridge between them.

It's unusual for me to dislike a character simply for their inaction, but there it is. Maddy openly admits her selfishness; that Bonnie stays so quiet about her own makes her loathsome to me.

[hoodooznoodooz]

7 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

If it turned out he's Perry and he's dead because someone finds out he's the rapist, Ziggy probably stands to inherit something and Jane also has no more concern about the guy possibly getting parental rights.  So I might tell more in that case, in her shoes.  Because the whole murder/inheritance thing would need explained.    

Wow! Is that true? If Perry dies, Ziggy might inherit something, even though Perry didn't know the rape resulted in a child? That would be so fantastic for Jane and Ziggy. 

So it seems we all agree that the twins might be learning aggressive behavior from Perry. Is it likely that Perry's father was abusive, too? I guess I am wondering how the first generation of abuse begins.

[Uncle JUICE]

At this point, is there a principle who is a victim of this crime who'd be LEAST heartbreaking? Going backwards from least heartbreaking:

• Perry seems too easy, too neat, particularly if he's Jane's rapist.
• Nathan? What would be the point of that?
• Renata? Yeah, she's overreacting and kind of a jagoff, but really, isn't she just reacting to the idea someone's hurting her child? Look, I have a ten year old daughter, she's been going through some regular mean girl type stuff at school, and I've been known to call other girls in her class the C word when it's just me and my wife. That's an overreaction too, on my part. And Renata didn't start the petition, which is much grosser than actually taking up for your own kid.
• Bonnie? We don't really know her that well, and I can see why she'd be annoying to these women, but she's hardly an unusual feature (younger second wife), and she doesn't really deserve it, plus she has a young daughter, and Abigail idolizes her.
• Jane? Then Ziggy's an orphan and a child of rape with no family.
• Maddy? She's not a terrible person, in fact she's a pretty decent sort, she's just made mistakes. And I don't think I can watch Adam Scott be a guy who just found out his wife was murdered by the woman whose husband she fucked. Adam Scott is such an identifiable sort of actor that I might actually throw up in sympathy if that happened.
• Ed? 
• Celeste? After all she's put up with, and she's got the two children.

Basically I hope someone kills the barista. 

[Atlanta]

11 hours ago, Gem 10 said:

I agree about the scenes with Perry and Celeste.   Whenever I see Perry, he's after her like a starving animal pouncing all over her.   He's a sick bastard.   Nicole Kidman is a good actress, but i don't understand her ease in taking her clothes off in a lot of her movies IMO.  And, that scene in the shower a few episodes back .. Even my husband of many years was stunned.

Yes! I got tired of seeing her naked. Seriously, woman. We get it. You look amazing and you have a bikini body that a teenager would die for. Okay, now, keep your clothes on unless you're in private with Keith Urban. ;)

[Ina123]

8 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

At this point, is there a principle who is a victim of this crime who'd be LEAST heartbreaking? Going backwards from least heartbreaking:

•  
• Jane? Then Ziggy's an orphan and a child of rape with no family.
•  

Basically I hope someone kills the barista. 

Jane has parents.

[Irlandesa]

24 minutes ago, hoodooznoodooz said:

Wow! Is that true? If Perry dies, Ziggy might inherit something, even though Perry didn't know the rape resulted in a child? That would be so fantastic for Jane and Ziggy. 

I'm not  a lawyer but it would really depend on how the will is constructed.  As it stands, Celeste likely would be the next-of-kin to inherit the estate.  Unless the will creates some trusts for Perry's children as heirs, she would decide what to do with the money.  Children wouldn't automatically inherit. 

Either way, Jane would likely have to sue the estate on Ziggy's behalf.  She may be entitled to child support but I don't know that Ziggy would automatically be entitled to inherit. 

[topanga]

30 minutes ago, LucyHoneychrrch said:

In a show full of people who have terrible secrets and make terrible decisions, what is most surprising to me is that the character I have the most visceral abhorrence to is Bonnie.

We see all these characters do terrible things -- Maddy has an affair, Joseph nearly stalks her, Jane makes decisions about what to tell Ziggy that are clearly divisive among the viewers, Celeste stays with an abuser, Perry is an unrelenting sociopath, Renata overreacts, Nathan is a horrible people-pleaser. But frankly, Bonnie is, to me, the WORRRSTTTT.

She kind of flits along the periphery of all of this, making jewelry, staying quiet, and does not once that we've seen ever own her role in either the strain between Nathan and Maddy or Abigail's newfound social awareness. She very clearly knows that her influence over Abigail is massive; but she neither acknowledges this to Nathan and Maddy, nor does she attempt to use it as a bridge between them.

It's unusual for me to dislike a character simply for their inaction, but there it is. Maddy openly admits her selfishness; that Bonnie stays so quiet about her own makes her loathsome to me.

What's her role in the strain between Maddie and Nathan--being Nathan's wife? IMO, that doesn't make her responsible for their issues. Maddie is the one who gets upset about Nathan's 'perfect life' with Bonnie. She never said that.

And wasn't it Bonnie's idea to have dinner with Madeline and Ed to try to ease the tension among them?

In terms of parenting, the only time I heard about Bonnie overstepping her bounds was when she took Abby to PP. which she later acknowledged was wrong, and she apologized to Maddie. It wasn't her job to decide what to do about Abby's website. She did what she was supposed to, which was to tell Nathan about it. 

How is Bonnie wrong if she made Abby aware of social issues?

I actually don't have strong feelings about Bonnie one way or the other. But I certainly don't think she's the villain in this scenario. 

[Lucelu]

Finally watched last night.

That teenager is attention seeking. I don't know how young she was when her father abandoned her nor when he came back into her life.  However, I do know it was her and Mom against the world for a certain amount of time and that ended at least 6-7 years ago when Madeline and Ed married and had Chloe. She would have been about 10 at that time, fully used to being the one and only. I don't agree with Madeline confiding her infidelity to her. I think she did it not to unburden herself but to try to reach her. Shocking her like she shocked them maybe? She was very dismissive of her mother, convinced her mother would know nothing outside her bubble of her perfect life and that she would never see her as other than a child.

I thought Nathan's initial reaction upon learning the news was appropriate. I felt Bonnie's was not. Yes, Madeline would blame him for not monitoring Abigal's online activity, just as he would to her. She clearly planned to live with he and Bonnie so she could get away with this much easier. The show does not show them as doing any family activities together. Did Nathan and Bonnie bring Abigal to the theater? (I don't remember them being there).

Celeste knows the truth. 

I find it interesting that much of the music is driven by the children much like when you have children in your home your life is dominated by them and their needs, activities etc. The only person to choose her own is Jane.  Jane's music reflects her emotions which is also dominated by her trauma. Of course Ed and Nathan were picking music for the competition. Ed's was motivated by kind of a nerdy romance and love for his wife and Nathans by his desire to compete against Ed and put him "in his place." I think Nathan is threatened by Ed's nobleness/honor-- it clearly rankles him. On the face of it, Nathan has everything -- very young gorgeous hip wife, successful career as a self made businessman, his teenage daughter chose him and another beautiful daughter Skye. Where is the music for Celeste? Has Perry driven that too out of her life?

The bright green vomiting was hilarious.

[LucyHoneychrrch]

10 minutes ago, topanga said:

What's her role in the strain between Maddie and Nathan--being Nathan's wife? IMO, that doesn't make her responsible for their issues. Maddie is the one who gets upset about Nathan's 'perfect life' with Bonnie. She never said that.

And wasn't it Bonnie's idea to have dinner with Madeline and Ed to try to ease the tension among them?

In terms of parenting, the only time I heard about Bonnie overstepping her bounds was when she took Abby to PP. which she later acknowledged was wrong, and she apologized to Maddie. It wasn't her job to decide what to do about Abby's website. She did what she was supposed to, which was to tell Nathan about it. 

How is Bonnie wrong if she made Abby aware of social issues?

I actually don't have strong feelings about Bonnie one way or the other. But I certainly don't think she's the villain in this scenario. 

I think I was mainly so irritated when they discovered Abigail's secret project, and Bonnie had next to nothing to say about it.  I get the sense she tries very hard to distance herself from the drama between these families, without acknowledging her own role simply by being Nathan's wife.  And I get weary of her condescending tone when she speaks to Nathan -- who by all accounts is kind of an idiot, but at least he's trying. 

[Uncle JUICE]

13 minutes ago, LucyHoneychrrch said:

I think I was mainly so irritated when they discovered Abigail's secret project, and Bonnie had next to nothing to say about it.  I get the sense she tries very hard to distance herself from the drama between these families, without acknowledging her own role simply by being Nathan's wife.  And I get weary of her condescending tone when she speaks to Nathan -- who by all accounts is kind of an idiot, but at least he's trying. 

I think part of it is that Bonnie's ostensibly younger than the rest of these women, I think in the show she's closer to Abigail's age than she is to Maddy's (in real life, she's 28, which if Maddy is 41 as Witherspoon is and Abigail is 15 [not sure but she doesn't have a driver's licesne], would put her EXACTLY in between the two, savvy job!). It's extremely unlikely that she finds herself prepared to deal with these complicated interfamily issues, and finding her 'place' in them is going to be super difficult, especially as she's very likely aware that Maddy will be unlikely to welcome her involvement, given that Abigal only recently chose Nathan (by extension Bonnie, who makes Maddy somewhat insecure seeing as Abigail sees her as so 'cool'). When stuff like this crops up, I think he reticence is fairly realistic: the answer to should I inject myself into this rapidly unfolding situation is probably "I'm not sure," and that would leave it up to her fight or flight instinct. She stays out of it out of self preservation, but doesn't do so very consciously, I think. 

[LucyHoneychrrch]

1 minute ago, Uncle JUICE said:

I think part of it is that Bonnie's ostensibly younger than the rest of these women, I think in the show she's closer to Abigail's age than she is to Maddy's (in real life, she's 28, which if Maddy is 41 as Witherspoon is and Abigail is 15 [not sure but she doesn't have a driver's licesne], would put her EXACTLY in between the two, savvy job!). It's extremely unlikely that she finds herself prepared to deal with these complicated interfamily issues, and finding her 'place' in them is going to be super difficult, especially as she's very likely aware that Maddy will be unlikely to welcome her involvement, given that Abigal only recently chose Nathan (by extension Bonnie, who makes Maddy somewhat insecure seeing as Abigail sees her as so 'cool'). When stuff like this crops up, I think he reticence is fairly realistic: the answer to should I inject myself into this rapidly unfolding situation is probably "I'm not sure," and that would leave it up to her fight or flight instinct. She stays out of it out of self preservation, but doesn't do so very consciously, I think. 

I suppose I'm coming at this from a perception of a forty-something, so there's that.  Perhaps suffice it to say, I empathize with Madeleine's eye-rolling dismissiveness of Bonnie.   And the "Goddamnit!" she couldn't help after Maddy threw up on her spoke volumes to me as to how ultimately insincere some of her rhetoric is.  Did you notice Maddy smiling slightly after she did it?  Glorious. 

[Ina123]

2 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

Bonnie doesn't bother me.  I think she's just supposed to be a calm, non-passive-aggressive counterpoint to Maddie.   Her not getting hysterical over situations like Nathan and Maddie tend to doesn't mean she's not taking the situations seriously.  I think Maddie envies her even temper and that's why the 'goddammit!' amused her.  

I think it amused her because she found out Miss Perfect wasn't so perfect. She could lose her cool, after all.