S01.E05: Once Bitten

[Auntie Anxiety]

13 minutes ago, pbutler111 said:

He's not trying to cut his wife off from friends or the outside world; he's not restricting her movements, like preventing her from leaving the house; he's not controlling her access to money.  If she wanted to leave, she could.

Once again, he does this in very subtle ways and she is now conditioned to know what is and is not acceptable. He moved her to Monterrey, away from her old friends and family. He doesn't want her to go back to work; it would make her too independent. She didn't tell him about the planned road trip to San Luis Obispo because she knew he would say no. She simply feels that she cannot do what she really wants to do and feels like she has to ask his permission to do something other than meet her friends at Blue Blues coffee shop. That's not how a grown-ass woman should have to live her life. If she dares to want to do something that she is concerned might not be Perry-approved, she has to pick and chose her words very carefully so as not to piss him off.....and she never knows from one day to another what that might be because he is irrational.

[sasha206]

5 hours ago, Keepitmoving said:

I agree, Kristen does fit the plain Jane type. I posted earlier that I find Shailene's eyes to be more expressive. I've seen this Kristen girl on tv, on red carpets only and I get nothing from her and I don't find her to be strikingly beautiful at all. She looks like just another attractive girl on street, not head turner or anything IMO. There's nothing uniquely beautiful about her face, nor her hair for that matter. She's not too beautiful to play the role to me.

I can't stand her as an actress. I think Shailene is capable.

[sasha206]

I haven't read the book, but one of the fatal flaws in this show to me is that Amabelle is choked and there's people that are acting as if Renata is some tyrant.  Of course, the show is making this the big question mark and the catalyst of the problems, but I just can't imagine a little girl being choked, saying it's Ziggy and having Celeste, Maddie, and others act as if Renata is out of line.  Adding on another incident, no mother wouldn't act like Renata.  I'm enjoying the show, but that's just my big sticking point.  Unless Amabella is a 5 year old who has some history of outrageous lying, seemingly everyone would assume she was telling the truth -- even if you are predisposed to dislike a Amabella's mom like Maddie does.  

[Llywela]

6 hours ago, Auntie Anxiety said:

That's probably what Jane's rift with her family is about.

Jane's rift with her family is about her decision to move to Monterey, as they'd been helping her raise Ziggy and didn't understand why she'd remove him from their support - that was explained in earlier episodes. We've also been told that Madeline was the first person she's ever told about the rape, which means her family don't know.

[Hope]

One thing that has confused/bugged me since watching this episode - in the scene when Jane tells the teacher and principle that Ziggy is the result of rape - is this real or imagined? Because it then cuts to Jane telling Madeline that of she didn't say that, although she wanted to. However, that scene reminded me of when Madeline recounted her kiss with Joseph to Celeste. What Madeline was saying to Celeste wasn't the truth, as the flashbacks showed. Is Jane's situation the same? Did she actually tell them about Ziggy's father? Thanks to whoever can provide clarity. 

[Llywela]

1 hour ago, Hope said:

One thing that has confused/bugged me since watching this episode - in the scene when Jane tells the teacher and principle that Ziggy is the result of rape - is this real or imagined? Because it then cuts to Jane telling Madeline that of she didn't say that, although she wanted to. However, that scene reminded me of when Madeline recounted her kiss with Joseph to Celeste. What Madeline was saying to Celeste wasn't the truth, as the flashbacks showed. Is Jane's situation the same? Did she actually tell them about Ziggy's father? Thanks to whoever can provide clarity. 

Yeah, it was imagined, she didn't actually say that, we were seeing her fantasy version of what she wanted to say, as recounted to Madeline later - and yes, we did see something similar when Madeline discussed Joseph with Celeste, that what she said was not what actually happened. It all links back to the show title, I guess - big little lies. All three protagonists have secrets, and they all tell big little lies about them, in their different ways.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

12 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I think one person has said she didn't sympathize with Celeste because she herself wouldn't stay for the abuse.  I think that's a very normal reaction.  I do feel for Celeste and understand how women get trapped.  But I also see her putting a lot of weight on what people think of her, including her own therapist.  I think that's part of the point of the show-- prioritizing appearances can be hazardous.  They're all hiding secrets, even from themselves, because they live in a world where they want to appear perfect. 

I think it's a normal reaction for people who have not been abused or known someone who was abused. It's easy to say what you would or wouldn't do hypothetically and another to actually be in the situation. When you love someone, that influences your decisions. What if your mother punched you (as an adult) right now? You love her but you know that was way out of line. Would you call the cops on your own mother? Or would you tell yourself that she's never done this before and you don't want her to go to jail and you want to figure out why on earth she would do such a thing to you? Would you assume that this was a one time thing and she'd never do it again? Would you be worried what the neighbors would think if the police showed up at your house or your mom's house? Would you worry that people wouldn't believe you because your mom doesn't seem like that kind of person? Would you worry that they would think your mother was a terrible person? Would you worry that your dad and other family members would accuse you of lying and stop talking to you?

I think that Celeste's concern with appearances is less about her social standing/money/the fancy house and more about the fear of people knowing that he abused her and being judged. Abuse victims from all socioeconomic backgrounds feel ashamed of being abused. It's not just the rich ones who are afraid of what people will think if they find out.

12 hours ago, MyPeopleAreNordic said:

I guess I'm the only one who doesn't mind the scenes of Jane running. Maybe it's because I'm a runner. 

In fact, the only time I'm really sold on Shailene's acting and the intensity of Jane's rage & conflicted thoughts about that night & her son is when she's running or has just entered her house after running.  She definitely has the "pensive/working some deep stuff out in my head/if I didn't take all my anxiety and run, I'd completely lose it" run and running face down.  I sometimes see it in others & I've seen it myself in race pics from fancier races that have photogs along the route (which I don't buy lol).  

I find her to be much better in scenes where she's in motion - walking, moving, etc. She's much more of a physical actress - she is more adept to acting with her body than her face, if that makes sense. She does better IMO in scenes where's a larger physical part to rather (like running, or even walking/entering the house with Ziggy) than sitting and saying lines (especially with Maddie & Celeste). I also think her acting is pretty believable in her interactions with the Ziggy character, but when she has scenes with most of the adults....blah....

I find the running scenes to be boring for the same reason that I would find it boring if we saw her doing her accounting work - it's not interesting to watch someone else do it. I'm more okay with the snippets we have seen of her arriving home from a run because that spares me from watching her run. For me, watching someone run is like watching someone vacuum or mow the lawn - it's repetitive motion so it's boring for me. YMMV of course, but I'd be fine if we didn't see any more running scenes. I'm glad that she has that outlet, but I don't need to see it in every episode.

I have been on the fence about Shailene Woodley's acting. She has seemed very flat, but I was trying to give her the benefit of the doubt that this was a deliberate acting choice because I've seen other actresses get heavily criticized for similar situations (I remember for most of the first season of Revenge, a lot of people complained about what a terrible actress Emily VanCamp was because she showed no emotion and it later turned out that it was the character deliberately being emotionally blank in order to deceive everyone). But given the choice between Shailene Woodley and Kristen Stewart? I'd take SW any day. While both actresses have a very girl you know kind of prettiness (as opposed to blinding supermodel hotness), I think that SW looks noticeably younger than Madeline, Celeste, and Renata (as she's supposed to) and she is the kind of pretty where she can look like an everyday kind of girl (which is appropriate for a single mom who is not wearing tons of makeup or fancy clothes) but she can also look glam. KS, on the other hand, looks like the grown up version of the grunge girl in high school who wrote bad poetry by candlelight and dyed her hair that matte shade of black you find in grocery store hair color. I think she's very capable of looking mousey, but feel like her 100 yard stare often comes off as bored or squinting to read a sign in the distance.

4 hours ago, Lemons said:

So many actresses have careers because of nepotism that it's annoying. They almost always play a version of themselves. Kate Hudson is a perfect example. 

Heh, like Zoe Kravitz? I agree that nepotism is annoying, especially in the entertainment industry when there are so many talented people out there. But at the same time, as much as I want to believe that the world is a meritocracy, the reality is that it's often who you know, not what you know. I haven't seen Zoe Kravitz in anything else so I can't say if she's playing a version of herself here but I think she's doing fine with the little that we've seen of her. I have to admit that when I see an actor play similar roles, I begin to wonder if they're playing a version of themselves or if they're being typecast. I remember Christopher Meloni said that he was primarily a comedic actor before he was cast in Oz and L&O: SVU!

[mochamajesty]

4 hours ago, sasha206 said:

I haven't read the book, but one of the fatal flaws in this show to me is that Amabelle is choked and there's people that are acting as if Renata is some tyrant.  Of course, the show is making this the big question mark and the catalyst of the problems, but I just can't imagine a little girl being choked, saying it's Ziggy and having Celeste, Maddie, and others act as if Renata is out of line.  Adding on another incident, no mother wouldn't act like Renata.  I'm enjoying the show, but that's just my big sticking point.  Unless Amabella is a 5 year old who has some history of outrageous lying, seemingly everyone ould assume she was telling the truth -- even if you are predisposed to dislike a Amabella's mom like Maddie does.  

4

They do not believe that Ziggy did it (neither, for that matter, do I).  They see Renata's tirades as 'picking on Jane' - and so do I.  The teacher did not help matters with the insane way that she handled the situation. 

Why hasn't Renata called the authorities yet?  The school is botching this and if she wanted to get to the bottom of it she should take action. 

11 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

The choking was at that open house at the school I believe, the day before their first day of school. The thing Perry beat Celeste up over because she didn't tell him that was his only chance to go meet the teacher. I'm guessing the kids were off playing while the parents were meeting with teachers which is probably how the incident went unseen. The bite could have happened at any time that day, I'm assuming someone helps Amabella change or bath and would have noticed it if it happened the day before.

I hope Renata does finally take Amabella to therapy. The poor kid is being physically assaulted and is too afraid of whoever is doing it to say their name. She needs someone safe to talk to.

 

Right, that what I said...

[txhorns79]

Quote

She didn't tell him about the planned road trip to San Luis Obispo because she knew he would say no.

In fairness, the road trip was a horrible idea.  I can't imagine any spouse being on board with that plan.  In terms of Celeste and Perry, I'd just say look at how difficult it was for Celeste to even acknowledge the issue of abuse in a way that didn't try to make it both she and Perry's fault.  It can be very hard to get away from an abusive spouse, even if you do have the resources to leave him at any time.       

[CofCinci]

5 hours ago, dd21dd21 said:

and I dont know how to say this without sounding like im blaming her for what happened but why did Celeste say "no you pick it up" to a man she knows has hit her for less

 

and im not a fan of Woodley in this..she's just there haha

To get to the "honeymoon" phase of the abuse cycle quicker. 

[NutMeg]

11 hours ago, scrb said:

Jane has been trying to suppress the event, especially when Ziggy keeps asking about his father.  But the more she tries to push it down, the more it rushes up and she can't seem to deal.

I'm now thinking that Jane thought this was behind her, but the family tree project and Ziggy's questions have reawakened something she thought she had buried for good. 

6 hours ago, violetr said:

On that note, although I think Nicole is compelling as Celeste, I've found myself wondering what another actress could bring to that role, particularly one who can do a consistent American accent! The slipping is making me batty. It's like she's not even trying. Or maybe they just should have made her character Australian. 

I know TV isn't so, but isn't America a land of immigrants and aren't various accents part of everyday life? I'm just thinking Celeste emigrated from Australia to the US and speaks accordingly. As does every person who's not second generation. 

5 hours ago, sasha206 said:

I haven't read the book, but one of the fatal flaws in this show to me is that Amabelle is choked and there's people that are acting as if Renata is some tyrant.  Of course, the show is making this the big question mark and the catalyst of the problems, but I just can't imagine a little girl being choked, saying it's Ziggy and having Celeste, Maddie, and others act as if Renata is out of line.  Adding on another incident, no mother wouldn't act like Renata.  I'm enjoying the show, but that's just my big sticking point.  Unless Amabella is a 5 year old who has some history of outrageous lying, seemingly everyone would assume she was telling the truth -- even if you are predisposed to dislike a Amabella's mom like Maddie does.  

I agree that Renata is not out of lime, but I don't understand either why she does't get to the bottom of that, it's almost as if she has blinders and only see Ziggy. I applaud her intend to have Amabelle see a therapist, and I don't understand why xxx (Renata's husband, can't remember his name) is dragging his feet. Could there be something detrimental  to him that Amabelle has seen that he doesn't want to come out? (Spelling check doesn't get "amabelle" and suggests many variations that I'm sure Renata would not be ok with)  

21 minutes ago, CofCinci said:

To get to the "honeymoon" phase of the abuse cycle quicker. 

Very interesting, and I can relate it to a (non violent) emotionally abusive boyfriend in my past. Now I'm even better armed with this checklist against potential abusers! 

Lastly, why I was on the edge of my seat while watching the episode is due in part to the various potential weapons shown - Jane and the gun, Celeste looking at the knives, was she thinking he might use them or she could use them? I've said it before, but never again in this season had an episode have me so much on edge.

[vixenbynight]

53 minutes ago, CofCinci said:

To get to the "honeymoon" phase of the abuse cycle quicker. 

Thank you for posting the above graphic of the never-ending turmoil that Celeste and her family are going through with Perry. I think that the folks who continue to question, not understand and dismissive about domestic abuse have to educate themselves. 

[stagmania]

2 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Heh, like Zoe Kravitz? I agree that nepotism is annoying, especially in the entertainment industry when there are so many talented people out there. But at the same time, as much as I want to believe that the world is a meritocracy, the reality is that it's often who you know, not what you know. I haven't seen Zoe Kravitz in anything else so I can't say if she's playing a version of herself here but I think she's doing fine with the little that we've seen of her. 

More like a version of her mother! Bonnie is a straight up Lisa Bonet character. 

I find that the nepotism complaints nearly always center on female actors/writers/creators, even though the exact same dynamic (with even more privilege) exists with males. Strange, that. Nepotism and connections are a part of every industry. 

50 minutes ago, NutMeg said:

I know TV isn't so, but isn't America a land of immigrants and aren't various accents part of everyday life? I'm just thinking Celeste emigrated from Australia to the US and speaks accordingly. As does every person who's not second generation. 

Yeah I don't know why people keep getting hung up on this. I don't think Kidman's really doing an accent-that's just how she talks. We know very little about Celeste's background, so there's no reason why this shouldn't be her accent. I actually never understand why so many shows force foreign actors to do accent work for parts that don't have to be American; I find that more distracting than just letting them speak naturally.

[lovinbob]

8 hours ago, violetr said:

On that note, although I think Nicole is compelling as Celeste, I've found myself wondering what another actress could bring to that role, particularly one who can do a consistent American accent! The slipping is making me batty. It's like she's not even trying. Or maybe they just should have made her character Australian. 

I don't care about the accent or lack of it or slipping into it, but I was thinking that Keri Russell could have been a decent choice for this role. She is like the icy counterpoint to Reese's fire.

But regardless, in a cast of standouts, I think Nicole is knocking it out of the park. This production is bringing the book to life such a masterful way. I didn't love the book, and I found the "whodunnit and what did they do" factor distracting. There's enough going on in this that I'm not constantly wondering about what happened. (Also, maybe because I read the book and have some idea of what actually did happen.)

[Mabinogia]

1 hour ago, stagmania said:

Yeah I don't know why people keep getting hung up on this. I don't think Kidman's really doing an accent-that's just how she talks. We know very little about Celeste's background, so there's no reason why this shouldn't be her accent.

I've never thought about Celeste's accent because she sounds like Nicole, the actress playing her, so just assumed they have similar background. I don't worry about stuff like that too much unless she's got a cockney accent and they say she was born and raised in France, it's just not an issue for me.

[Clanstarling]

14 hours ago, Keepitmoving said:

What do you mean? Because Shailene, talks and has those laid back mannerisms in real life. Heck she seems laid back even while protesting, because she was up front and center during this past election season. Protesting for one cause or another and even her raised voice isn't really all that raised to me LOL. She seriously comes off as laid back, chill, and yes, have a puff or two. I think that's why I buy her in the role, and also because I think that's what they wanted in the role.

I saw her on The Late Show and she was pretty much the same as her character. This doesn't particularly bother me. A great many actors (including stars) are limited to roles that are pretty much a version of themselves. They don't have the range. But to be fair, just being yourself on camera is talent in and of itself. It's not as easy as it looks.  What does bother me is that the character feels flat to me - and up against the other women of multiple dimensions, it's a disservice to the character, imo.

11 hours ago, CofCinci said:

Have you seen him in Straw Dogs?  Yikes.

Had no clue they remade Straw Dogs. I know AS from True Blood. He too comes from showbiz royalty - at least where he's from (Sweden, I think). His father is a big time actor there (and appeared in those Avengers movies). The sad thing is, AS looks exactly like his father did at his age, and it doesn't end well. :(

I don't find it odd that many children from parents who work show business go into it. It's like any other field, the people you grow up knowing are the ones who'll give you that first break. But you're not going to get a great career if don't have the chops. Unless your parent is the director (like one actress I hate who claims to have done it all on her own).

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I don't really care if the character/actress has an accent or not, but I'm puzzled as to why someone is listed in the credits as Nicole Kidman's accent coach because someone is getting paid to help her sound like something, but it's not clear exactly what that something is!

Edited March 22, 2017 by ElectricBoogaloo

[kj4ever]

I really think Celeste and Ammabelle have the same issue with why they don't want to admit they are being abused.  Neither one of them want o appear weak.  I know that Ammabelle or however the hell you spell her name is probably afraid, but after seeing her Mother's rant about how she is a bulldog probably just made the poor kid feel like she doesn't measure up to her Mother and has kept her quiet.

Celeste probably has a hard time with the label victim because society has taught us (wrongly so) that victims are supposed to be meek and weak, not strong women who had successful high powered careers.

[Stella]

I thought in one of the conversations between Celeste and Perry  she talked about leaving her home and moving here to be with him (in an effort to prove her love) that the implication was she came from another country, presumably Australia since it's her RL homeland. Obviously I could have been just putting my own spin on their conversation but I just assumed NK wasn't even really trying with the American accent because her character was born and raised someplace else.

10 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

but I'm puzzled as to why someone is listed in the credits as Nicole Kidman's accent coach because someone is getting paid to help her sound like something, but it's not clear exactly what that something is!

Yeah, that is pretty interesting if she has this coach. I've never really thought about her accent before. She's been in so many movies where she plays an American I figure she would have a good accent at the ready. I'm going to continue thinking of Celeste as born elsewhere, LOL.

[sacrebleu]

Quote

So many actresses have careers because of nepotism that it's annoying. They almost always play a version of themselves. Kate Hudson is a perfect example. 

 

 

Quote

Heh, like Zoe Kravitz? 

or, Laura Dern, for that matter. 

[sasha206]

4 hours ago, mochamajesty said:

They do not believe that Ziggy did it (neither, for that matter, do I).  They see Renata's tirades as 'picking on Jane' - and so do I.  The teacher did not help matters with the insane way that she handled the situation. 

Why hasn't Renata called the authorities yet?  The school is botching this and if she wanted to get to the bottom of it she should take action. 

Right, that what I said...

I know that's the hook, but I'm just saying in reality, I have a difficult time thinking that a child gets choked, names her accuser and there's a set of mom's that think she's just "picking on Jane" and believe the accused.  That just isn't a natural reaction until you have a real reason to suspect that Amabella is making it up.  I mean, hell, even Ziggy's mom is worried that maybe he might have rapist dad's violent streak.  It would be different to me if all the mom's knew Ziggy and never experienced any violent outbursts.  But he's a new kid in town.

Anywho, I'm enjoying the series.  I just think that is one thing I roll my eyes at because Ziggy and Jane are both essentially strangers (I mean, Maddie had lunch but she still barley knows her) to everyone on the day of the choking incident.

[Guest]

5 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I think it's a normal reaction for people who have not been abused or known someone who was abused. It's easy to say what you would or wouldn't do hypothetically and another to actually be in the situation. When you love someone, that influences your decisions. What if your mother punched you (as an adult) right now? You love her but you know that was way out of line. Would you call the cops on your own mother? Or would you tell yourself that she's never done this before and you don't want her to go to jail and you want to figure out why on earth she would do such a thing to you? Would you assume that this was a one time thing and she'd never do it again? Would you be worried what the neighbors would think if the police showed up at your house or your mom's house? Would you worry that people wouldn't believe you because your mom doesn't seem like that kind of person? Would you worry that they would think your mother was a terrible person? Would you worry that your dad and other family members would accuse you of lying and stop talking to you?

I think that Celeste's concern with appearances is less about her social standing/money/the fancy house and more about the fear of people knowing that he abused her and being judged. Abuse victims from all socioeconomic backgrounds feel ashamed of being abused. It's not just the rich ones who are afraid of what people will think if they find out.

I think most women aren't abused or aren't close to someone who is, so it's normal to think you wouldn't stand for it.  Just like I think most women don't have PTSD from rape and think they wouldn't sleep with a gun or drive smoking pot, if they did have it.  I don't see a need for the people with PTSD who sleep with a gun to be appalled here that most people (or one person) don't share their sympathy for Jane's actions.   I just think all reactions are valid.  

2 minutes ago, sasha206 said:

I know that's the hook, but I'm just saying in reality, I have a difficult time thinking that a child gets choked, names her accuser and there's a set of mom's that think she's just "picking on Jane" and believe the accused.  That just isn't a natural reaction until you have a real reason to suspect that Amabella is making it up.  I mean, hell, even Ziggy's mom is worried that maybe he might have rapist dad's violent streak.  It would be different to me if all the mom's knew Ziggy and never experienced any violent outbursts.  But he's a new kid in town.

Anywho, I'm enjoying the series.  I just think that is one thing I roll my eyes at because Ziggy and Jane are both essentially strangers (I mean, Maddie had lunch but she still barley knows her) to everyone on the day of the choking incident.

But we do have reason to believe Amabella is lying.  And Renata isn't just investigating her claim, she's treating Ziggy as guilty, and as proven guilty.  

37 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I don't really care if the character/actress has an accent or not, but I'm puzzled as to why someone is listed in the credits as Nicole Kidman's accent coach because someone is getting paid to help her sound like something, but it's not clear exactly what that something is!

Right, she's supposed to sound American.  She doesn't sound 90% American/10% Aussie in real life.  If the story had put a line in about her being from Australia and let her speak normally I'd have no trouble with it.  But she's supposed to sound American so when she slips into the Aussie accent it takes me out of the story, especially in the therapist scenes where you're supposed to hang on her every word and movement and believe this is a battered wife, not Nashville royalty.  That's another normal reaction, when someone is acting and you see they're struggling with some aspect of the role-- it disturbs the illusion for the viewer.  It'd be a bit like seeing a boom mic hovering over the therapy session.   

[mochamajesty]

56 minutes ago, sasha206 said:

I know that's the hook, but I'm just saying in reality, I have a difficult time thinking that a child gets choked, names her accuser and there's a set of mom's that think she's just "picking on Jane" and believe the accused.  That just isn't a natural reaction until you have a real reason to suspect that Amabella is making it up.  I mean, hell, even Ziggy's mom is worried that maybe he might have rapist dad's violent streak.  It would be different to me if all the mom's knew Ziggy and never experienced any violent outbursts.  But he's a new kid in town.

Anywho, I'm enjoying the series.  I just think that is one thing I roll my eyes at because Ziggy and Jane are both essentially strangers (I mean, Maddie had lunch but she still barley knows her) to everyone on the day of the choking incident.

We didn't see the incident (neither did the parents), and Ziggy denied it, so there needs to be an investigation. The school horribly dropped the ball from step one.  Amabella isn't making it up - someone choked her and someone bit her.   They just need to find out who - right now it's a 'he said, she said'.  And until they find out who, there is a chance that Amabella is lying about Ziggy.

6 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I think it's a normal reaction for people who have not been abused or known someone who was abused. It's easy to say what you would or wouldn't do hypothetically and another to actually be in the situation. When you love someone, that influences your decisions. What if your mother punched you (as an adult) right now? You love her but you know that was way out of line. Would you call the cops on your own mother? Or would you tell yourself that she's never done this before and you don't want her to go to jail and you want to figure out why on earth she would do such a thing to you? Would you assume that this was a one time thing and she'd never do it again? Would you be worried what the neighbors would think if the police showed up at your house or your mom's house? Would you worry that people wouldn't believe you because your mom doesn't seem like that kind of person? Would you worry that they would think your mother was a terrible person? Would you worry that your dad and other family members would accuse you of lying and stop talking to you?

 

No...

First, you don't always - or usually - 'know' that someone is abused. They may know someone who is being abused, the person just hides it.   So it really comes down to having sympathy for your fellow man.   I can wrap my head around not understanding how someone can stay with an abuser. I cannot wrap my head around someone not having sympathy for someone in that position.

Celeste may be afraid to tell her friends for that very reason. 

Edited March 22, 2017 by mochamajesty

[Athena]

This is a tough subject and one that is very sensitive to many posters for many reasons. Please be tactful in your posting here. Posts may be removed without notice.

[Llywela]

So far as the Amabella-Ziggy thing goes, Amabella has only accused Ziggy of one thing, the choking incident, and she made that accusation under extreme duress: she was surrounded by her entire class, plus their parents, with everyone staring at her and both her mother and teacher very loudly insisting that she point the finger at someone; she caved to that pressure and pointed, but has never actually said a word against Ziggy. In fact, when asked about him in much calmer, more private circumstances, she said they were friends. Since then there was one accusation of bullying which came entirely from the teacher's imagination - seriously, she noticed that Amabella was a bit quiet one time and that Ziggy happened to be looking in her direction, and from that single moment she spun an elaborate theory about bullying - despite Amabella saying that nothing was wrong. Now Amabella has a bite mark, but has not said one word about who did it; it was her mother who jumped to conclusions about Ziggy, based on zero evidence.

I'm still amused by the debate about Nicole Kidman's accent in the show, since I still couldn't place it if you paid me; the only thing that's really struck me about Celeste's voice is how softly spoken she always is, which is entirely appropriate for the character and her circumstances. Also, since one has answered my earlier question about Joseph's accent, I'm just going to go ahead and assume Cabrera is doing a better job than Kidman in that no one has noticed his accent is every bit as fake as hers - although granted, he's had a lot fewer lines to give himself away!

Edited March 22, 2017 by Llywela

[Ina123]

58 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

Right, she's supposed to sound American.  She doesn't sound 90% American/10% Aussie in real life.  If the story had put a line in about her being from Australia and let her speak normally I'd have no trouble with it.  But she's supposed to sound American so when she slips into the Aussie accent it takes me out of the story, especially in the therapist scenes where you're supposed to hang on her every word and movement and believe this is a battered wife, not Nashville royalty.  That's another normal reaction, when someone is acting and you see they're struggling with some aspect of the role-- it disturbs the illusion for the viewer.  It'd be a bit like seeing a boom mic hovering over the therapy session.   

Accent or not, she's killing it in those therapy scenes. I don't see NK or hear NK. I see a real woman who is uncomfortable admitting anything but dying to say it.

[MaryWebGirl]

4 hours ago, NutMeg said:

I agree that Renata is not out of lime, but I don't understand either why she does't get to the bottom of that, it's almost as if she has blinders and only see Ziggy. I applaud her intend to have Amabelle see a therapist, and I don't understand why xxx (Renata's husband, can't remember his name) is dragging his feet. Could there be something detrimental  to him that Amabelle has seen that he doesn't want to come out? (Spelling check doesn't get "amabelle" and suggests many variations that I'm sure Renata would not be ok with)  

I understood why he didn't want that, because Renata wasn't presenting it as "Amabelle is being bullied and I want her to talk to someone about it." She presented it as "Amabelle is super gifted with extra special feelings and she needs therapy because someone didn't want to come to her birthday party!!!!" 

[stagmania]

1 hour ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I don't really care if the character/actress has an accent or not, but I'm puzzled as to why someone is listed in the credits as Nicole Kidman's accent coach because someone is getting paid to help her sound like something, but it's not clear exactly what that something is!

Oh see now, that's weird. If she's getting coached, I have literally no idea what accent they're trying to pull off.

1 hour ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I think most women aren't abused or aren't close to someone who is, so it's normal to think you wouldn't stand for it.  Just like I think most women don't have PTSD from rape and think they wouldn't sleep with a gun or drive smoking pot, if they did have it.  I don't see a need for the people with PTSD who sleep with a gun to be appalled here that most people (or one person) don't share their sympathy for Jane's actions.   I just think all reactions are valid.  

The idea is to have empathy for people even if you haven't personally experienced their situation, and to make an effort to understand their behavior and feelings whether or not you think you would react the same way. I know that for some they're just TV characters, but a lot of people relate strongly to their situations.

[Clanstarling]

2 hours ago, kj4ever said:

I really think Celeste and Ammabelle have the same issue with why they don't want to admit they are being abused.  Neither one of them want o appear weak.  I know that Ammabelle or however the hell you spell her name is probably afraid, but after seeing her Mother's rant about how she is a bulldog probably just made the poor kid feel like she doesn't measure up to her Mother and has kept her quiet.

That is an interesting observation, makes sense to me.

[Juliegirlj]

Didn't one of the bystander's at the very beginning of the show say something about the whole incident wouldn't have happened if Maddie hadn't sprained her ankle, and subsequently gotten in Jane's car?! I'm trying to wrap my brain around that for a clue. 

It frustrates me that no one has really calmly sat down and talked to Annabelle. Only the teacher publicly demanding she name the bully, and Renata shrieking and freaking. Her Dad made one good comment that the bully could, in fact, hurt others and that Annabelle is too kind to allow that, but then they dropped it. Either Annabelle is confused by which twin hurt her, or she is afraid to tell because the bad kid is popular ( keeps me thinking perhaps Chloe did it) Regardless, If she were my kid I would make her tell me, or even keep her home from school until it is resolved. 

The show very deliberately made the parallels of Madeline being the head bitch in charge, and Chloe running shiz at school. Not a huge stretch to imagine Chloe lashing out at the child of her mother's nemesis. 

[Llywela]

1 minute ago, Juliegirlj said:

Didn't one of the bystander's at the very beginning of the show say something about the whole incident wouldn't have happened if Maddie hadn't sprained her ankle, and subsequently gotten in Jane's car?! I'm trying to wrap my brain around that for a clue.

Yeah, I keep coming back to that, too. Whatever happens, it spins out of Madeline's friendship with Jane somehow, and wouldn't have happened if they hadn't met and become friends that day. That's why I keep coming back to Jane's search for her rapist, which we know both Madeline and Celeste are now helping with - it's the one plotline all three are involved in. It's got to be relevant, and it's got to be leading somewhere, which is why I'm sure it has to be a main character and connected to the murder.

[Atlanta]

I don't think this is spoilery, but it might help bring light/context to the Wright's financial situation..

Spoiler

They are obscenely rich. She regularly donates amounts like $20,000 to random charitable causes and Perry doesn't care. Book wise, you get the sense he doesn't watch their accounts too closely. 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, stagmania said:

Oh see now, that's weird. If she's getting coached, I have literally no idea what accent they're trying to pull off.

The idea is to have empathy for people even if you haven't personally experienced their situation, and to make an effort to understand their behavior and feelings whether or not you think you would react the same way. I know that for some they're just TV characters, but a lot of people relate strongly to their situations.

I do.  But I also understand the people who can't relate, just like I understand the ones who can't relate to Jane's dangerous behavior.  It's a tv show partly designed to get people to think, and this is a forum to discuss our thoughts.  I don't hope we ever get to TWOP levels of not being allowed to comment on others' comments rather than strictly the show itself.  But saying you're appalled at others' sympathy levels doesn't seem much different from having low sympathy for Celeste.  Both require putting yourself in someone else's shoes and understanding their perspective.  I'm with you in that I think sympathy for any victim is warranted but there are going to be levels that vary and I hate to see some perspectives shushed.  

[CKTV123]

On 3/20/2017 at 11:54 AM, GinnyMars said:

There was one odd shot, at first I thought it was directing our attention to Amabella's feet/unsteadiness, but upon replaying it, I wondered if it had more to do with showing us the teacher's shoes. From the waist up, I had always found her pretty unassuming; bland, even. The shoes and toes tell a different story. Dominatrix vibes?

I think those are Renata's shoes. The teacher is indeed too mousy and blah to wear anything like that. And speaking of shoes, I re-watched a couple episodes last night and noticed that they keep showing Gordon in full shots head to toe like they are trying to get all of him in. Normally he wears casual shoes - flip flops or sporty type shoes. This plus the zeroing in on the fancy dress shoes at Jane's assault has me wondering if they aren't trying to tell us something.  I can't recall seeing Ed or Nathan in a full body shot with their shoes not hidden behind a table or a kitchen island. And Perry is Mr. Businessman so of course he wears dress shoes but they don't always show them in every shot. I could be way way way off.  

[topanga]

33 minutes ago, Llywela said:

Yeah, I keep coming back to that, too. Whatever happens, it spins out of Madeline's friendship with Jane somehow, and wouldn't have happened if they hadn't met and become friends that day

But if Madeline were standing there at pick up while Amabella pointed at Ziggy but he insisted he didn't choke her, I can see Maddie's righteous anger flaring up while she tries to get to the bottom of what really happened. 

[Keepitmoving]

11 minutes ago, CKTV123 said:

I think those are Renata's shoes. The teacher is indeed too mousy and blah to wear anything like that. And speaking of shoes, I re-watched a couple episodes last night and noticed that they keep showing Gordon in full shots head to toe like they are trying to get all of him in. Normally he wears casual shoes - flip flops or sporty type shoes. This plus the zeroing in on the fancy dress shoes at Jane's assault has me wondering if they aren't trying to tell us something.  I can't recall seeing Ed or Nathan in a full body shot with their shoes not hidden behind a table or a kitchen island. And Perry is Mr. Businessman so of course he wears dress shoes but they don't always show them in every shot. I could be way way way off.  

They are, I re-watched the scene and the teacher is wearing flat, black closed-in shoes. Those are Renata's feet/shoes.

[Llywela]

1 minute ago, topanga said:

But if Madeline were standing there at pick up while Amabella pointed at Ziggy but he insisted he didn't choke her, I can see Maddie's righteous anger flaring up while she tries to get to the bottom of what really happened. 

Madeline was standing there at pick up when that happened, but we haven't seen her trying to get to the bottom of what happened to Amabella. Getting involved in the search for the rapist is the only thing I can think of that's an ongoing plot point which absolutely would not have happened if Jane hadn't stopped to help Madeline that day. Unless I'm forgetting something?

[Giesela]

On 3/21/2017 at 11:46 PM, Lemons said:

So many actresses have careers because of nepotism that it's annoying. They almost always play a version of themselves. Kate Hudson is a perfect example. 

OMG so this.  I mentally complain about it constantly.  Not just actresses, actors too.  And now we won't only have Kate Hudson (who does do her type of role well) but the failed hockey player brother said he was going to give acting a try.  Really dilutes the talent pool.  Interestingly of the 5 main actresses  2 have industry connections, just off the top of my head.  

Only 2 more episodes?  Doesn't 7 seem sort of lean?  

Edited March 24, 2017 by Giesela

[mochamajesty]

5 hours ago, NutMeg said:

 

I agree that Renata is not out of lime, but I don't understand either why she does't get to the bottom of that, it's almost as if she has blinders and only see Ziggy. I applaud her intend to have Amabelle see a therapist, and I don't understand why xxx (Renata's husband, can't remember his name) is dragging his feet. Could there be something detrimental  to him that Amabelle has seen that he doesn't want to come out? (Spelling check doesn't get "amabelle" and suggests many variations that I'm sure Renata would not be ok with)  

 

See, I don't get why her husband has to 'agree'.  I would TELL him that I was taking Amabella to a therapist. 

[sasha206]

On 3/22/2017 at 10:45 AM, mochamajesty said:

We didn't see the incident (neither did the parents), and Ziggy denied it, so there needs to be an investigation. The school horribly dropped the ball from step one.  Amabella isn't making it up - someone choked her and someone bit her.   They just need to find out who - right now it's a 'he said, she said'.  And until they find out who, there is a chance that Amabella is lying about Ziggy.

Right, she pointed to Ziggy.  If no one actually saw the incident and it's he said, she said, that often IS the investigation.  Typically, parents are going to err on the side of caution and make the assumption that Amabella has no reason to lie about who did something to her.  

My main point is that it's hard for me to believe there'd be parents like Maddie and Celeste that wouldn't see this new kid in school, already accused of choking someone and believe HIM over her.  The only way I'd buy that would be if Maddie and Celeste had this child over to play before the incident and thought this kid would never hurt anyone.  Their first meeting of Ziggy they know nothing about him.  I just don't believe the basic premise that there would be doubt that the girl was lying for whatever reason about WHO did it.  Renata's reaction to the choking would be very typical of a concerned parent.  As pyscho as Perry is, his reaction about wanting his children to play with Ziggy is a typical reaction.  Maddie's wanting him to play with Chloe does not seem like a typical reaction.  Her husband Ed who erred on the side of caution is typical.  That's all I'm saying.  

Anyway, that's beside the point really.  And probably more of a episode 1 discussion.  Clearly some sort of side taking was necessary, even if I don't buy the basic premise, to set up the course of events.

Edited March 23, 2017 by sasha206

[mochamajesty]

10 minutes ago, sasha206 said:

Right, someone she pointed to Ziggy.  If no one actually saw the incident and it's he said, she said, that often IS the investigation.  Typically, parents are going to err on the side of caution and make the assumption that Amabella has no reason to lie about who did something to her.  

My main point is that it's hard for me to believe there'd be parents like Maddie and Celeste that wouldn't see this new kid in school, already accused of choking someone and believe HIM over her.  The only way I'd buy that would be if Maddie and Celeste had this child over to play before the incident and thought this kid would never hurt anyone.  Their first meeting of Ziggy they know nothing about him.  I just don't believe the basic premise that there would be doubt that the girl was lying for whatever reason about WHO did it.  Renata's reaction to the choking would be very typical of a concerned parent.  As pyscho as Perry is, his reaction about wanting his children to play with Ziggy is a typical reaction.  Maddie's wanting him to play with Chloe does not seem like a typical reaction.  Her husband Ed who erred on the side of caution is typical.  That's all I'm saying.  

Anyway, that's beside the point really.  And probably more of a episode 1 discussion.  Clearly some sort of side taking was necessary, even if I don't buy the basic premise, to set up the course of events.

The parents are cliquish and Renata is an outsider (her own words).  It may be as simple as that.

As for Renata's reaction I don't think it's typical at this point.  A typical reaction would be to get authorities involved (again, the school botched the situation) and get to the bottom of it, especially after discovering the bite marks.  That means that this is ongoing.  Everyone is focused on the school taking action - which isn't working.  Sorry that doesn't sound typical to me. If Renata can go to the mayor about a play to get back at Madeline, she can go to a therapist or the cops about her own child.

Edited March 22, 2017 by mochamajesty

[Blakeston]

2 hours ago, sasha206 said:

I know that's the hook, but I'm just saying in reality, I have a difficult time thinking that a child gets choked, names her accuser and there's a set of mom's that think she's just "picking on Jane" and believe the accused.  That just isn't a natural reaction until you have a real reason to suspect that Amabella is making it up.  I mean, hell, even Ziggy's mom is worried that maybe he might have rapist dad's violent streak.  It would be different to me if all the mom's knew Ziggy and never experienced any violent outbursts.  But he's a new kid in town.

I think most of the parents believed Amabella when she made the accusation. Madeline didn't, because she'd seen Ziggy being very sweet, and she didn't like the way the situation was handled, and she has a bias against Renata. But I think she was very much in the minority in seeing Ziggy as innocent.

3 hours ago, kj4ever said:

I know that Ammabelle or however the hell you spell her name is probably afraid, but after seeing her Mother's rant about how she is a bulldog probably just made the poor kid feel like she doesn't measure up to her Mother and has kept her quiet.

I've seen it spelled so many different ways here. It's Amabella, right?

[mochamajesty]

1 hour ago, stagmania said:

Oh see now, that's weird. If she's getting coached, I have literally no idea what accent they're trying to pull off.

The idea is to have empathy for people even if you haven't personally experienced their situation, and to make an effort to understand their behavior and feelings whether or not you think you would react the same way. I know that for some they're just TV characters, but a lot of people relate strongly to their situations.

Thanks for this.

There is a difference between 'empathy' and 'sympathy'.  I don't expect people who have not experienced this to feel empathetic - that is an impossibility or at best, difficult.    I do expect some sympathy, though - which some have said they do not have. I'm not 'appalled', but I am surprised. 

[GinnyMars]

44 minutes ago, CKTV123 said:

I think those are Renata's shoes. The teacher is indeed too mousy and blah to wear anything like that. And speaking of shoes, I re-watched a couple episodes last night and noticed that they keep showing Gordon in full shots head to toe like they are trying to get all of him in. Normally he wears casual shoes - flip flops or sporty type shoes. This plus the zeroing in on the fancy dress shoes at Jane's assault has me wondering if they aren't trying to tell us something.  I can't recall seeing Ed or Nathan in a full body shot with their shoes not hidden behind a table or a kitchen island. And Perry is Mr. Businessman so of course he wears dress shoes but they don't always show them in every shot. I could be way way way off.  

 

31 minutes ago, Keepitmoving said:

They are, I re-watched the scene and the teacher is wearing flat, black closed-in shoes. Those are Renata's feet/shoes.

Whoops, that was the most obvious answer and I missed it completely! Thanks guys.

The shot was still odd though. Does the director have a foot fetish?!

[Guest]

I think we're supposed to see Renate judging Jane for not being one of them, financially.  She and Ziggy are the outsiders and the obvious scapegoats.  

Did Maddie mention that Jane's single when she introduced those two, also?  I guess not, since Renata thought she was a nanny the second time they ran into each other.  

I liked the odd shoe shot.  That shot shows a shy, hesitant little girl and suggests a confident, ballbuster mom.  

The shoes these people wear to drop-off is kind of funny.  Maddie is dressed to the nines, including in heels so high she fell off them, just to take a 1st grader to school.  

We got another scene of her ripping off the CAUTION tape from the stairway to the theater this episode.  Her repeatedly ignoring the caution signs and tapes there is symbolic of her charging confidently toward disasters in the story, I think.  

[lovinbob]

24 minutes ago, mochamajesty said:

The parents are cliquish and Renata is an outsider (her own words).  It may be as simple as that.

As for Renata's reaction I don't think it's typical at this point.  A typical reaction would be to get authorities involved (again, the school botched the situation) and get to the bottom of it, especially after discovering the bite marks.  That means that this is ongoing.  Everyone is focused on the school taking action - which isn't working.  Sorry that doesn't sound typical to me. If Renata can go to the mayor about a play to get back at Madeline, she can go to a therapist or the cops about her own child.

I agree completely. Also, I have a hard time believing Renata feels that strongly about Avenue Q. She was going after the play to go after Maddie. This is obviously a preexisting dynamic between these two, that they hate each other, so the reactions on both parts are not 100% sincere.

I wish we could see one parent point out how poorly the school is handling all of this stuff. Publicly asking Amabella to point out who hurt her, in front of EVERYONE including the parents, was ridiculous. Allowing Renata to interrupt Jane's meeting, without any prior preparation from the principal, was ridiculous. I recognize that I need to just let this go, but I would feel better about this absolutely backwards portrayal of how a school would behave if SOMEONE, ANYONE would acknowledge that they screwed up and only enabled the likes of Renata and Madeline to act out their infantile dislike of each other using children as pawns. 

12 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

I think most of the parents believed Amabella when she made the accusation. Madeline didn't, because she'd seen Ziggy being very sweet, and she didn't like the way the situation was handled, and she has a bias against Renata. But I think she was very much in the minority in seeing Ziggy as innocent.

I've seen it spelled so many different ways here. It's Amabella, right?

Yes, yes, yes.

[stagmania]

16 minutes ago, mochamajesty said:

Thanks for this.

There is a difference between 'empathy' and 'sympathy'.  I don't expect people who have not experienced this to feel empathetic - that is an impossibility or at best, difficult.    I do expect some sympathy, though - which some have said they do not have. 

I actually do think people should be capable of empathy for things they haven't directly experienced-but maybe my standards are too high. :)

[mochamajesty]

1 minute ago, stagmania said:

I actually do think people should be capable of empathy for things they haven't directly experienced-but maybe my standards are too high. :)

:)

I can appreciate how difficult that is for some to do, so I will settle for sympathy. 

[mochamajesty]

2 hours ago, Ina123 said:

Accent or not, she's killing it in those therapy scenes. I don't see NK or hear NK. I see a real woman who is uncomfortable admitting anything but dying to say it.

Yep.

I couldn't pick an Australian accent out of a lineup.  I think she sounds like an upper class woman who is scared out of her mind.

[CKTV123]

19 hours ago, mochamajesty said:

Renata made the statement " I wanted to take her to a psychiatrist, but you wanted to fuck me in the bathroom ", or something like that.

I have no idea why Renata did not take Amabella on her own. 

Wasn't it clear the choking happened at school? The bite could have happened anywhere but the mark on neck would have garnered attention had it happened prior to orientation.

Yeah. Good point. Since when does a ball buster like Renata wait for permission or for her husband to even agree with her before doing what she feels she needs to for her child? Nope, she followed him into the john for a little afternoon delight. Interesting...