S01.E05: Once Bitten

[ElectricBoogaloo]

10 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I think Perry was more upset that she was working.  If Celeste had bought a new gown for Perry to show her off at a gala or something, I doubt he would care.

ITA - it's not the cost of her new suit that upset him. It was the purpose of that outfit and what it meant. He wants her at home, not at work. If it were a fancy dress for the Audrey/Elvis fundraiser where everyone would see her by his side, he wouldn't have cared that she just spent $5K.

10 hours ago, scrb said:

Yeah it's not realistic that Jane, without steady full-time work, would be able to afford to live among people with multimillion dollar oceanfront homes.

We don't know exactly how much Jane is working or how much she's being paid. She said in one of the first few episodes that she kept several of her clients from wherever she just moved from (SC?) and then very shortly after that, Tom (the waiter at the cafe) said he had some local businesses that he could hook her up with. At the very least, we know that she has some clients and income. No, she couldn't afford to live in an expensive oceanfront house like Celeste, but she is renting a one bedroom cottage in a non-oceanfront neighborhood, which is way less expensive. I have lived in San Diego, Los Angeles, and the Bay Area and there is a noticeable price drop if you live right on the beach versus if you live two blocks east, whether you're renting or buying so I think the modest neighborhood she's living in seems reasonable for what we know about her. My sister had a tiny cottage (even smaller than Jane's) but because it wasn't right on the beach, she was able to afford the rent while she was in grad school. It was actually similar in that it was in an older neighborhood with smaller, older, and more modest houses.

The income level difference between Jane and everyone else is noticeable in every way. Her car, her clothes, her food/drink/activities are all much more frugal than what we see of Madeline, Celeste, and Renata. She isn't going out for drinks, taking yoga classes, etc. She drives an older non-fancy car that gets good gas mileage, she lives in leggings and hoodies (and not the expensive kind that Celeste and Madeline were wearing in this episode), and the outing with Ziggy in a previous episode was going to the beach (which is free). The only things we've seen her spend money on in five episodes are coffee at the cafe and the Disney on Ice tickets. One of my friends lived near Monterey right after he got divorced (he figured if he was going to start his life over, he might as well get the hell out of Ohio and go somewhere he'd always wanted to live). He was totally broke and he slept on a friend's couch until he was able to get a job temping. After that, he was able to rent his own place on his meager salary. Like Jane, he wasn't right on the beach in a fancy house but he was just happy to be in a beach town. The one time that the "Jane is poor" characterization didn't match up with her actions for me was this episode when the school called and threw her phone onto the beach. I'm pretty sure I make more money than she does (haha, even though we still have no idea how much money she makes) and even I wouldn't throw my phone because I don't want to pay to replace it!

I also think that Madeline understands that Jane doesn't have as much money as she and Celeste does and makes an effort not to make her feel uncomfortable about it (remember that Friends episode where Joey, Rachel, and Phoebe can't afford to do some of the expensive stuff that Monica, Chandler, and Ross want to do and they get into a huge fight about it?). Madeline is already a regular at the cafe but I think part of the reason that she keeps meeting Jane there is because it's less expensive than other places (like the fancier place where she met Celeste for drinks).

Where did Jane used to live? I swear she said Santa Cruz in the first episode. Even though SC is much more of a hippie town than Monterey, it's still pretty expensive so I would guess that what Jane spent on rent and living expenses there is comparable to what she's spending in Monterey now.

Edited March 21, 2017 by ElectricBoogaloo

[chocolatine]

41 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

The only things we've seen her spend money on in five episodes are coffee at the cafe and the Disney on Ice tickets.

Didn't Madeline get those tickets for free via her job? IIRC, that's what Celeste told Perry when he got angry that he wasn't invited - that there were only so many free tickets available.

43 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Where did Jane used to live? I swear she said Santa Cruz in the first episode.

She did say Santa Cruz.

Some background book info about Jane's finances - not a spoiler in any way, but I'm hiding it just in case:

Spoiler

Jane is apparently a very efficient accountant, so she gets a lot done while Ziggy is at school. While they live modestly, she can afford to house and feed them and doesn't take handouts from her parents.

[Llywela]

1 hour ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

The one time that the "Jane is poor" characterization didn't match up with her actions for me was this episode when the school called and threw her phone onto the beach. I'm pretty sure I make more money than she does (haha, even though we still have no idea how much money she makes) and even I wouldn't throw my phone because I don't want to pay to replace it!

In fairness to Jane, she did hurry down to the beach immediately to retrieve the phone, which had landed in soft sand and seemed undamaged.

Celeste's story has been hitting home hard for me this week, because my little sister finally plucked up the nerve to leave an abusive relationship just last Thursday - and had to climb out of a window to do so, as she'd been locked in. It's been a rollercoaster few days packed with police and interviews, and even now I'm not convinced she won't just go back when the dust dies down. She is completely conditioned to make the other girl happy at all times, or else - which is probably also part of Celeste's problem. That kind of conditioning builds up gradually - we've been spotting red flags for months, but she would never admit anything, never wanted to talk about it - and it is very, very hard to break down. Celeste seems to be slowly edging her way toward that breakthrough moment of admission and action, but she isn't there yet.

I've been kind of amused by the discussions above about Celeste's accent, because only after reading that discussion does it occur to me that I couldn't place her accent in the show if I tried! On a similar note, five episodes in and I'm still surprised every time Joseph opens his mouth because (Heroes notwithstanding) I'm not used to hearing Santiago Cabrera with an American accent. Does his sound any better than Nicole's? I can't tell, I have no ear for American accents!

There's also been some comment on Ed's standing desk, so I'll just note here that I work in a large IT department and quite a few of our guys have uppy-downy desks (what? that's the technical term we like to use...). They are meant to be good for people with back problems who struggle to sit for extended periods. We also have quite a few guys who use standing stations permanently, because they prefer to work that way. So I didn't bat an eyelash at Ed's standing desk, it seems bang on for his character.

Show has made a point of bringing all three leads into a place of crisis as the story moves toward its endgame - Jane and her rape trauma, Celeste and her domestic abuse, Madeline and her affair - I guess to keep us all guessing as to who the killer and victim are. Some candidates seem more likely than others, but there are still plenty of potential names in the hat if they want to pull a surprise out of the bag without coming completely out of left field. I'm just wondering how the next two episodes will break down. Will we reach the point of crisis in episode six, perhaps as a cliffhanger end, with episode seven then rounding things off? Or will all the action be confined to episode seven, with episode six just more build up? We'll find out soon enough, I guess.

[mochamajesty]

At the end of the show we see Jane and Renata at the crime scene. There are a few Greek chorus people  (the black guy and the Asian woman) as well as one person I cannot identify.

So we know that Jane and Renata survive -2 of my least favorite characters.

[Ina123]

12 hours ago, stanleyk said:

One interesting throwaway line that I haven't seen mentioned yet is during the conversation between Madeline and Ed about confronting the suspected rapist. Maddy says Celeste is coming and Ed says something disbelieving like "Like Perry would allow Celeste to go?"

That line says to me that the controlling nature of the Perry/Celeste relationship is not lost on outsiders to that relationship. So while Celeste's friends may not know the extent of the violence and abuse, they do know on some level about the control issues.

Not necessarily. Ed had already said he would go with them. He didn't want his wife involved and once he realized she was determined to go, then he would go too. To me his question was in disbelief that ANY husband would let his wife go without him for protection.

[Ina123]

10 hours ago, mochamajesty said:

Many consider The Wire one of the best shows ever made.

This.

[Ms Blue Jay]

8 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

As for Shailene, I've seen her in both The Descendants and Divergent, and she didn't do much for me in either of those movies. She seemed pretty much the same, as I recall, as she is here. A little snarkier in The Descendants, maybe. It works for some roles. Not all actors are particularly versatile. Unfortunately, she's up against some big guns in the acting department.

Really the most WTF for me in terms of casting.  Someone must have really wanted her in this part, because her attitude and looks do not relate whatsoever towards the character.  You can make a case for every other actor, because a combination of their looks, their attitude, their acting ability all make them right for the role, but Shailene is a big question mark.  She's one of those actors I guess where I just don't get it.  Not a bad actor to me, just....a question mark.

5 hours ago, JBC344 said:

I think it would be interesting if they did this as an anthology series with taking this same cast and having them do another adaptation of Liane's other books.  I wouldn't mind seeing this same cast tackle The Husband's Secret.

So I'm rereading Liane's What Alice Forgot because of this series and it's quite incredible.  It's giving me very vivid dreams.

Edited March 21, 2017 by Ms Blue Jay

[Ms Blue Jay]

15 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

On a related note, even if the woman reports and documents the abuse and obtains a restraining order, the police can't do anything until the abuser has violated the restraining order. I remember there was a case when I was in college where a woman left her abusive husband and got a restraining order. The order said he had to stay X amount of feet from her so he stood right in front of her house, just past the distance specified on the restraining order. When she called the police to report that her abusive ex was standing right in front of her house, they told her that legally they couldn't do anything until he actually came closer. They told her to call back if that happened. When the guy finally violated the restraining order and moved past that distance, he broke into the house and killed her.

On top of that, complaints to the police are often not taken seriously enough. There is a murder case that's on trial right now where a girl reported that her ex was stalking her, that he assaulted her, and then stole her keys and broke into her house to watch her sleep. Instead of protecting her, the police charged HER with "having caused wasteful employment of police by making a false report.” He is now on trial for her murder. Patrick Stewart has been very open about his father abusins his mother. He said that when the police came, they would say things like "She must have provoked him," or "Mrs Stewart, it takes two to make a fight."

Some people are refusing to empathize with how truly horrifying this kind of life is.  Not only do men often have the power imbalance of being physically stronger, but if you've ever dealt with the police or any kind of authority in reporting a male for their abuse or harassment towards you, it is a battle having that authority believe you just based on your word, it is a battle even when you have physical evidence, and even if they do, it is a battle having that authority be able to do anything about it using the law afforded them.  It's an uphill climb.

Edited March 21, 2017 by Ms Blue Jay

[lmsweb]

Oddly enough, some of the best acting from Shailene this series was the scene where she is talking to Madeline from her car. She sounded natural. I wonder if she (as an actress) is intimidated by working with Nicole and Reese (both veterans with Oscars). If so, it at least works in her favour as the wallflower type in a lot of their scenes together.

I DID hear Nicole's accent slip a few times during the therapist scenes. I'm chalking that up to the emotions in the scene - apparently the way the director films is no rehearsals, the actors just go for it. I'm still not bothered by the accent though, I'm just going to hand wave it that Celeste has an Australian mother or father and thus has a hint of an accent from being raised in a home where an accent is always spoken.

One thing that broke my heart was the scene where the parents are dropping off their kids and most of them are running or skipping into the school, all except Ziggy, who just sort of seems to shuffle his way towards the door. So sad :(

[Juliegirlj]

Kids are almost always more aware of what is going on in their home than most give them credit for. The twins seem to have little respect for Celeste, and frequently ignore her. Learned behavior or genetic tendency? Gives credence to the nature vs nurture question, as does the possibility of Ziggy being a "bad seed". ( I think he is sweet and adorable) 

[Giesela]

I've seen Shailene on two talk shows and she has been asked the "are you intimidated by working with such a stellar cast" question and both times she said no.  I have to say even in the interviews she seemed a bit uh.... quiet.  Which makes me feel awful to say because she physically went to protest the Dakota pipeline and was arrested and I respect that.  Not only that but I complain a lot about how tv hosts and guests seem to feel the need to talk really loudly and be SUPER BUBBLY and OVER THE TOP ENERGY all the time and she is just super chill.  But maybe she could try not to flat line?  I think my problem with Jane is that while I understand the writers wanting to show her PTSD and depression from the assualt, they don't show why anyone would want to be her friend.  Other than Maddy of course who loves dejected stray underdogs I guess.  

[susannot]

13 hours ago, Giesela said:

OMG that was such  great old movie, at least in my Jr. high school age memory.  

I have been thinking along the lines of whether this is a bit about nature vs. nuture.  Ziggy, the sweetest child is the seed of a violent man, the twins, if the abusers, well I guess they are getting it from both ends if they have indeed been aware of the violence.  And I have to think they have. 

I was also thinking about that today.  I do believe that the show may be playing with issues of nature vs.nurture. If all three kids are sons of a violent rapist, it should be interesting how they turn out with a loving single mother vs. a violent abusive father.

Shailene is 25.  Even though she denies it, I think it must be intimidating to work with two older veteran Oscar winning actresses.  Still, in trying to think of another young actress who might be better in the role of Jane, I can't come up with anyone.  The actress has to be willing to be a drab wallflower next to the glamorous leads.  I can't think of any other young actresses who can convincingly play  a drab plain Jane rape survivor with PTSD and single mother.

[QuinnM]

Quote

Shailene is 25.  Even though she denies it, I think it must be intimidating to work with two older veteran Oscar winning actresses.  Still, in trying to think of another young actress who might be better in the role of Jane, I can't come up with anyone.  The actress has to be willing to be a drab wallflower next to the glamorous leads.  I can't think of any other young actresses who can convincingly play  a drab plain Jane rape survivor with PTSD and single mother.

Like I said, hard to shine when you are standing next to the sun.  The only other that I thought of was Jennifer Lawrence since a number of her roles have been that drab type.  She also work a lot with David Russel who also does the handheld camera, no rehearsal thing as well.

[Giesela]

I think Hailee Steinfield would nail it

[QuinnM]

Quote

t the end of the show we see Jane and Renata at the crime scene. There are a few Greek chorus people  (the black guy and the Asian woman) as well as one person I cannot identify.

I think that is Celeste.  I'm seeing a tiara and Nicole's eyes when I frame by frame with the tivo.

Quote

I think Hailee Steinfield would nail it

I wonder how much of this was getting a name that wasn't filming already.  I know there have been gossip mags saying that Shailene signed on after a call from Dern.

[LucyHoneychrrch]

I don't mind Shailene Woodley in this role.  I think she's well-suited for it.  She's babyfaced in a way that makes her a striking contrast to Reese Witherspoon and Nicole Kidman, who are all angles.  And in a way I think her looks are less polished or less refined.  She LOOKS like a 25-year-old frazzled single mother, who would have temporarily fallen for a suave player for the night, unable to believe on some level that he'd have chosen her.  

I also think Shailene Woodley has a kind of strange natural grace that plays well against her plain-Jane look in this series.  

[Jezebel97]

30 minutes ago, susannot said:

Shailene is 25.  Even though she denies it, I think it must be intimidating to work with two older veteran Oscar winning actresses.  Still, in trying to think of another young actress who might be better in the role of Jane, I can't come up with anyone.  The actress has to be willing to be a drab wallflower next to the glamorous leads.  I can't think of any other young actresses who can convincingly play  a drab plain Jane rape survivor with PTSD and single mother.

Brie Larson 

[Mabinogia]

12 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

The con is that because it is supported by his behavior, many of us have guessed it and it won't feel like a surprise.

The thing that works for me, even though I think that Perry will be the rapist and hopefully the one who dies is, this show is so much more than the murder mystery. Honestly, I keep forgetting there is a murder mystery until they show the Greek chorus and I'm like, what are they going on about...oh, right someone dies. Because the characters are so strong and the storylines are powerful and well told, I don't care if the answers were all obvious from the beginning, though I can't decide who kills Perry if he's the victim. Either Celeste or Jane would make sense. Or Madeline because she loves being in everybodies business. lol

I would prefer the obvious to, say, Saxon Banks really being the rapist and victim because who cares about him? So, so long as the storytelling and acting stay strong, IDK how obvious the ending is, so long as there isn't a twist for the sake of a twist. If, say, Nathan is killed by Renata I'm gonna be all WTF? (though the odds of that are pretty much nil).

[pbutler111]

6 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

In addition to the aforementioned shows (particularly The Wire, which was really good), Shameless is a Showtime drama about working class people and they've managed to wring seven (going on eight) seasons of drama about a family that isn't anywhere near rich.

The Got S6 finale hit a series high for ratings: 8.9 million viewers.

Keep in mind that's just Nielsen ratings, not across all platforms. According to this article, GoT's fourth season already surpassed the Sopranos (and
the GoT S4 season premiere was the first HBO episode to surprass the Sopranos series finale):

 

On a related note, even if the woman reports and documents the abuse and obtains a restraining order, the police can't do anything until the abuser has violated the restraining order. I remember there was a case when I was in college where a woman left her abusive husband and got a restraining order. The order said he had to stay X amount of feet from her so he stood right in front of her house, just past the distance specified on the restraining order. When she called the police to report that her abusive ex was standing right in front of her house, they told her that legally they couldn't do anything until he actually came closer. They told her to call back if that happened. When the guy finally violated the restraining order and moved past that distance, he broke into the house and killed her.

On top of that, complaints to the police are often not taken seriously enough. There is a murder case that's on trial right now where a girl reported that her ex was stalking her, that he assaulted her, and then stole her keys and broke into her house to watch her sleep. Instead of protecting her, the police charged HER with "having caused wasteful employment of police by making a false report.” He is now on trial for her murder. Patrick Stewart has been very open about his father abusins his mother. He said that when the police came, they would say things like "She must have provoked him," or "Mrs Stewart, it takes two to make a fight."

I think they'll keep this a stand alone mini series, but keep in mind that if the producers wanted to make another season, two of the actresses who are mothers are also executive producers (Reese and Nicole) so they would already have two of the main characters if that's what they really wanted to do. I don't think they will try to do a second season, mostly because there is no sequel to this book so they would have to come up with an entirely new storyline for S2 from scratch. It could take years before they have a script that they're satisfied with.

Reese and Nicole ARE the producers, so they're the ones making those decisions.  This is a one-off series. It doesn't lend itself to a second season.

[Blakeston]

1 hour ago, Giesela said:

I think Hailee Steinfield would nail it

Hailee Steinfeld is only 20, and I can't see her passing for older. If she had a first-grader, that would come across very differently.

I think Woodley's been quite good. I also think her role is incredibly difficult. So much of what we see is her just by herself, running, and looking like she's going to flip out. When she gets to interact with the other actresses, I've been pretty impressed.

Edited March 21, 2017 by Blakeston

[ElectricBoogaloo]

22 minutes ago, pbutler111 said:

Reese and Nicole ARE the producers, so they're the ones making those decisions.  This is a one-off series. It doesn't lend itself to a second season.

They are two of eleven producers for this show. Eight of those eleven (including Reese and Nicole) are executive producers. That's why my response to a previous comment about how many of the actresses on this show are moms who wouldn't want the commitment of another season was to point out that Reese and Nicole are producers. 

[pbutler111]

11 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

They are two of eleven producers for this show. Eight of those eleven (including Reese and Nicole) are executive producers. That's why my response to a previous comment about how many of the actresses on this show are moms who wouldn't want the commitment of another season was to point out that Reese and Nicole are producers. 

I'm not getting what them being moms has to do with anything. There are a lot of actresses on TV series who are also moms.

[teddysmom]

Quote

 

Many consider The Wire one of the best shows ever made.

This.

 

This times infinity!

You come at the King, you best not miss. 

[Guest]

I don't mind Woodley.  I'd rather she play it subdued than over-the-top like Dern.  I don't love her story, though.  I think she's been shown to be sensible and resourceful so I feel like if her PTSD is as bad as we're shown, she'd know to get medical help for it, not try for revenge.  Shooting her attacker isn't going to end her PTSD.  

And I'm also not a fan of the theme of 'is my child of rape a bad seed?'  I didn't like it in Happy Valley, either.  I wouldn't mind so much if outsiders had the fears but to me it's not a very realistic thing for a mother to fear.  We've been shown that Ziggy is well-adjusted and kind; Jane would know that better than anyone.  

[BananaRama]

On 3/19/2017 at 8:37 PM, lmsweb said:

Seriously, if you haven't seen Dead Calm with Nicole Kidman (her first movie, with Sam Neil, AND she gets to be an Aussie in it), you need to watch it.

She is also looking better than ever too.  I think it may be because she has accepted that she is an older actress.  Nicole Kidman's acting is terrific on this show.

[jeansheridan]

4 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

You can make a case for every other actor, because a combination of their looks, their attitude, their acting ability all make them right for the role, but Shailene is a big question mark.  She's one of those actors I guess where I just don't get it.  Not a bad actor to me, just....a question mark.

I think she is the right age and she isn't overtly pretty.  I like her with her Ziggy scenes.  But did I believe she would shoot that guy?  Nope.  She can't do rage yet.  She is the weak link.

 Kristen Stewart might have been better.  Tighter, angrier.  But Shailene is adequate.  Hopefully she learns.  

Laura Dern has a tough job.  The show needs her to be comic relief but also a sincerely upset mother.  She seems unreasonable but her daughter was bitten and frustratingly won't/can't talk about it.  The girl is sweet but when your whole mystery depends on the silence of a five year old...even I want to shake her.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

1 hour ago, pbutler111 said:

I'm not getting what them being moms has to do with anything. There are a lot of actresses on TV series who are also moms.

You'd have to ask the person who originally posted about several of the actresses on this being moms who probably wouldn't want to commit to filming another season. I was just replying to their statement to clarify that since two of the lead actresses on this show who are moms are also producers, they would have more power to decide whether they want to film a second season (as opposed to any of the other cast members who are not producers).

[tennisgurl]

2 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

And I'm also not a fan of the theme of 'is my child of rape a bad seed?'  I didn't like it in Happy Valley, either.

Yeah I hope it backs off that train immediately. At least with Happy Valley, you could say that the kids issues were more based around his family either openly resenting his existence, or looking at him like he was a ticking time bomb, even when he was like 7. I didn't really like the whole plot on HV, and I`ll be annoyed if they go full on Bad Seed in later seasons, but at least they have more than "rape is genetic" as a major part of the series. Here, no one knows that Ziggy is a child of rape, and Jane doesn't seem to let that affect her relationship with Ziggy in a way that he would notice, so if they do go with Ziggy being an abuser by preschool, which is just a weird and nasty story to tell. Being a rapist isn't like having brown hair or even being athletic or something, its not genetic! Maybe we can have Jane questioning it a little bit, even knowing its irrational, but that's all I can take.

It would be a way better story to have one of the twins being guilty. That way its more of a story about kids witnessing abuse and that leading to them thinking abuse is normal, not a kid becoming abusive because of his genes. Also, I wonder if Renettas freak out was both out of anger that someone is hurting her daughter, and that her daughter hasn't done anything about it, or told anyone the truth. During her rant, she started going on about how she had people try to pull down, as a woman, down on the way to the top, and she had to fight her way to the top and it made her strong, which made me wonder if she's worried her daughter is "weaker" than she is, or will grow up to be pushed around and abused. I don't think that's really true, but I would like to know how, for one thing, no one seems to be seeing who this is, and for another, why she wont tell anyone she is hitting/biting her. It makes me wonder if its actually an adult whos doing this, and is threatening her to keep her quiet. Granted, a kid can be doing that too, and Amabella does seem to be kind of a quiet, mild mannered kid by nature, but it seems like more of something an adult would think to do, not a little kid. I cant say I know a lot about how young kids bully (I don't have kids, and never really witnessed any bullying as a kid, at least like this), but that doesn't really seem as much like a kid thing.

It could connect to Celeste being angry at the idea of being a victim of an abusive man. She doesn't want to think of herself as some kind of sad, broken victim, and Renetta is angry at the idea that she daughter could be one as well, and she isn't doing anything to stop it. Which is pretty harsh, considering Amabella is still a little kid. She should raise her kid to be strong, but still.

Edited March 21, 2017 by tennisgurl

[Atlanta]

2 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

 Kristen Stewart might have been better.  Tighter, angrier.  But Shailene is adequate.  Hopefully she learns.  

She would suck the life out of this production. She's so monotone and dead behind the eyes. I actually don't mind SW. I just wish they'd stop with the running to the cliff scenes.

[iggysaurus]

16 hours ago, Penman61 said:

Jane's rapist is the secondary whodunit (the primary whodunit is who are the murdered/murderer from the series' very first seconds), so having him be Not A Husband makes sense to me.   

Actually, five eps in (out of 7?), I don't think the rapist was really a whodunit at all.  His identity was presented as unclear because Jane was unclear who he was.  Her story is not mainly about Which Hot Monterey Husband Raped Me? but what that rape has done and is doing to her.

In any case, my money is on Saxon as being Jane's rapist.  (Not that it's a whodunit, lol...)

Thank you - this has been my impression all along and I am surprised so many are seeing Jane's rape as a "whodunit." I think this show is mainly a character study of these three women (and the secondary characters). It's structured around the actual "whodunit" of the murder (where we still don't know who the victim is, nevermind whodunit), but that's more a narrative device than the "point" of the story, IMO. The meat of the story is the characters' complicated lives in general. Celeste's primary story is that she's in an abusive relationship. Madeline's is her stale marriage/affair/parenting issues (take your pick), and Jane's is her trauma from being raped and raising the child that resulted from that rape in a new and unfamiliar setting. I don't think there has to be a big reveal that the stories intersect in such an obvious, soap-opera way like Celeste's husband turning out to be Jane's rapist from the past.  But obviously mileage varies. 

[lmsweb]

I may have to go back and re-watch again, but I got the impression that Renata herself had been bullied, perhaps as a child, and is projecting that. It would explain her near-hysteria over the bullying, and her emotional breakdown.

I actually find Renata much more compelling on the tv show than I did in the book, to be honest.

[Keepitmoving]

Quote

Kristen Stewart might have been better.  Tighter, angrier.  But Shailene is adequate.  Hopefully she learns.  

I never seen Kristen Stewart in anything. But I have seen pictures of her and does she ever crack a smile? She comes off pretty weird to me. Yeah, Shailene at least has a little something, something behind those eyes that I can see. 

But maybe her portrayal of anger is not what they wanted. I really don't think she needs to get better in this role because like others she's never stood out to me. She does nothing for me as an actress, she's not a stand out, she's OK. But I will admit, I think she's well suited for this role, I don't think it's a mistake.  I really think Shailene and her monotone, relaxed presence is exactly what they wanted.  Jane is so relaxed in public and even in private unless she's having an episode in dealing with the horror of her rape. Most of the time, stuff is all pent up inside, tipping over and ready to explode and she clearly has only been coping with all that by sleeping with a loaded gun under her pillow, repeatedly running to a cliff that to me she at times is contemplating running right over it, and listening to rage against the machine type music. That's how she has been expressing her anger, it works for me. She looked like she couldn't catch her breath after that run not so much that she was so out of breath but that she was so angry accompanied by that song of cuss words that she was listening to.

When she gave that tissue to Renata in response to Renata's ranting and bullying, I totally bought the character of Jane reacting that way. If anything, someone like her, would have to have a build up over time to finally explode and think were about there.

Edited March 21, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[QuinnM]

Quote

Thank you - this has been my impression all along and I am surprised so many are seeing Jane's rape as a "whodunit."

I'm almost seeing the murder 'whodunit' as more of what damage finally pushed someone over the edge.  It appears maybe the quite literally someone goes over the edge.  I'm thinking that all of the calm insecure acting that I see in Woodley is the PTSD.  This weeks episode sees her starting to crack.  It's the rape, it's the son, it's the accusation against the son and soon, boom!  So I'm withholding judgement on her acting ability until the story starts to climax.  Then I might look back and say dead on or maybe that was a miss.

[OldButHappy]

5 hours ago, susannot said:

Shailene is 25.  Even though she denies it, I think it must be intimidating to work with two older veteran Oscar winning actresses.  Still, in trying to think of another young actress who might be better in the role of Jane, I can't come up with anyone.  The actress has to be willing to be a drab wallflower next to the glamorous leads.  I can't think of any other young actresses who can convincingly play  a drab plain Jane rape survivor with PTSD and single mother.

I decided to check out the Reddit subs on this series - the most surprising thing, for me, was that Shailene's performance received much more praise than did any of the other actresses'.  So maybe it's a generational thing - that her disaffected personae feels flat to older viewers but rings true to millennials.

[Keepitmoving]

27 minutes ago, iggysaurus said:

Thank you - this has been my impression all along and I am surprised so many are seeing Jane's rape as a "whodunit." I think this show is mainly a character study of these three women (and the secondary characters). It's structured around the actual "whodunit" of the murder (where we still don't know who the victim is, nevermind whodunit), but that's more a narrative device than the "point" of the story, IMO. The meat of the story is the characters' complicated lives in general. Celeste's primary story is that she's in an abusive relationship. Madeline's is her stale marriage/affair/parenting issues (take your pick), and Jane's is her trauma from being raped and raising the child that resulted from that rape in a new and unfamiliar setting. I don't think there has to be a big reveal that the stories intersect in such an obvious, soap-opera way like Celeste's husband turning out to be Jane's rapist from the past.  But obviously mileage varies. 

I'm going to take the title of this show literally and say yes, the murder mystery is the main whodunit, but there just may be other big/little lies going on which could include someone's husband living a double life, the other life being that of a rapist. He is so angry, so enraged, good lord. In the episode before this one when he had to stop choking her because the boys showed up in their bedroom, OMG, the rage, he had to bend down and steady himself with his fist in the wall before he could leave that room. Who knows? Maybe his wife's body is not enough of an outlet for all that rage. We don't know yet.

[Auntie Anxiety]

A couple of thoughts after re-watching this episode:

I am a little conflicted about Perry's relationship with the twins. On the one hand, he enjoys hanging out with them, he's a lot of fun, he's playful and he appears to be able to set limits for them. But at the same time, it results in making his relationship with them into a "boys' club," and subtly (or not so subtly) turns it all into a misogynistic paradigm. They don't listen to Celeste (even though Perry half-heartedly tells them to listen to their mother), they shoot nerf guns at her while he holds her and they learn how to treat women from him (I'm sure a lot of us have seen sons talk to their mothers the same way their fathers do; I liken it to treating their mother like the hired help).

The other point is that among the reasons that Renata has a meltdown is because she is used to being the one in control and she can't control this. Her screaming at Amabella, although not directed to Amabella, only serves to make her daughter feel like she did something wrong. Amabella doesn't know what to say! If she says that Ziggy isn't the culprit, Renata will get angry because Amabella lied. If she accuses another kid/person, then it will set Renata off on another crazy rant, which Amabella doesn't want to set off. Amabella ends up feeling like she's in a Catch 22.

[Keepitmoving]

In Renata's defense, this biting my kid is some bullshit. I would be flipping the fuck out, but on the school personnel. I'm not approaching any parents by myself and getting in any one's face in an accusatory tone, not good. But if that school doesn't get their shit together, I'm calling the cops,  and/or the local news station if the school doesn't nip it in the bud. Because this is straight up assault. This cannot happen, unless the school lacks the adequate amount of faculty to monitor those kids. What the hell? Good lord these kids are in what first grade! They're babies, what's going to happen when they get to fourth grade, if the school can't monitor them in the early childhood grades?

Edited March 21, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[stagmania]

9 hours ago, Llywela said:

Celeste's story has been hitting home hard for me this week, because my little sister finally plucked up the nerve to leave an abusive relationship just last Thursday - and had to climb out of a window to do so, as she'd been locked in. It's been a rollercoaster few days packed with police and interviews, and even now I'm not convinced she won't just go back when the dust dies down. She is completely conditioned to make the other girl happy at all times, or else - which is probably also part of Celeste's problem. That kind of conditioning builds up gradually - we've been spotting red flags for months, but she would never admit anything, never wanted to talk about it - and it is very, very hard to break down. Celeste seems to be slowly edging her way toward that breakthrough moment of admission and action, but she isn't there yet.

My sympathies and good luck to your sister. My sister is also finally leaving an abusive relationship after 12 long years. It's a massive relief, but the leaving itself is going to be incredibly messy and take a long time (they have five children together). I'm really hoping she makes it through this time.

7 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Some people are refusing to empathize with how truly horrifying this kind of life is.  

I've been a bit appalled at some of the insensitive comments on this board, especially given how many posters have shared how Celeste's story relates to their own experiences or those of their loved ones. I appreciate everyone who's willing to share and try to help others understand.

3 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

And I'm also not a fan of the theme of 'is my child of rape a bad seed?'  I didn't like it in Happy Valley, either.  I wouldn't mind so much if outsiders had the fears but to me it's not a very realistic thing for a mother to fear.  We've been shown that Ziggy is well-adjusted and kind; Jane would know that better than anyone.  

Not sure why you find it unrealistic-she was raped, she was traumatized by it, and she knows that some piece of her rapist exists in her son. Seems like the kind of fear that would nag her forever and be very hard to escape. I get why people are uncomfortable with it, as of course it's not at all fair to Ziggy. But our darkest fears have little to do with fairness.

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

It would be a way better story to have one of the twins being guilty. That way its more of a story about kids witnessing abuse and that leading to them thinking abuse is normal, not a kid becoming abusive because of his genes.

I think this is exactly where the story is going. Jane is afraid for Ziggy because of his genes, while Celeste is in denial about what her sons could be learning from what they see. It makes a lot of sense to me that both of them are misguided.

[Cardie]

49 minutes ago, lmsweb said:

I may have to go back and re-watch again, but I got the impression that Renata herself had been bullied, perhaps as a child, and is projecting that. It would explain her near-hysteria over the bullying, and her emotional breakdown.

The other three moms have guilty secrets. For symmetry's sake, Renata should have one too. Unless she is in fact abusing her own child, I have no clue what hers might be and there are only two episodes to go. I suppose severe bullying or physical abuse as a child might qualify.

[Lemons]

19 hours ago, mochamajesty said:

Off the top of my head are

The Wire

The Corner

Many consider The Wire one of the best shows ever made.

I think their best shows are the "gritty" down on their luck type shows. The night of, True DEtective, Oz, and of course, the wire. 

I thin it's interesting to watch shows were people live differently than we do, whether living in a trailer or a 20 million dollar house.  

[tennisgurl]

1 hour ago, OldButHappy said:

So maybe it's a generational thing - that her disaffected personae feels flat to older viewers but rings true to millennials.

That's an interesting way to look at it. I'm only two years older than Shailene, and I've always been a fan of hers, even in her terrible ABC Family days (her show was awful, but my college roommate watched it, and she was good), and I think she's doing a good job here. She doesn't get the super meaty domestic abuse story like Nicole, or the more showy spitfire role like Reese, she has to play a really low key, traumatized single mom, who goes from quiet to RAGE really quickly, and I think she's doing really well. Maybe it is a generational thing (millennial actors tend to be a bit more awkward and fidgety in their performances. Not always, but often) then older actors, so maybe there is something there. Granted, I think Nicole and Reese are doing great work too, so maybe I'm just in my show honeymoon phase.

I think its understandable for Jane to be worried about Ziggy becoming like his father, even if its unfair to Ziggy. It must be really difficult to have a child based around something so awful and traumatic, and to have that reminder with you every day, but to still love him. I think she knows, intellectually, that no way is Ziggy a Bad Seed, and basing that fear on his biological father is silly, but emotionally, I can see it still be something that goes on in the back of her head. Its sad, but understandable. I just hope the show doesn't end up confirming that fear. I don't think it will though, so I'm not too worried.

Also, I feel like that café guy has to have some relevance. He keeps popping up, even if its just for a scene or two as a background character. I don't think he's the rapist, as I think Jane would have recognized him by now, but he might be a dark horse candidate for the murderer/victim, the reveal about some other secret, or, if this show decides to be nicer, a love interest for Jane near the end of the series, to show that she's moving on with her life.

Edited March 21, 2017 by tennisgurl

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, stagmania said:

But our darkest fears have little to do with fairness.

No but they usually are affected by our knowledge of how things work.  Jane seems to have some education and common sense.  Violence isn't generally considered a hereditary trait.  It's not completely outlandish that a mother could fear it.  But I don't like when a writer suggests it because it shows ignorance and might perpetuate the belief that our kids inherit behaviors, not learn them.  

22 minutes ago, stagmania said:

I've been a bit appalled at some of the insensitive comments on this board, especially given how many posters have shared how Celeste's story relates to their own experiences or those of their loved ones.

I think one person has said she didn't sympathize with Celeste because she herself wouldn't stay for the abuse.  I think that's a very normal reaction.  I do feel for Celeste and understand how women get trapped.  But I also see her putting a lot of weight on what people think of her, including her own therapist.  I think that's part of the point of the show-- prioritizing appearances can be hazardous.  They're all hiding secrets, even from themselves, because they live in a world where they want to appear perfect.  

Maybe that's the point of Jane's blase attitude.  She doesn't give a shit what the people think of her.  She's not hiding her secret, she's reliving it multiple times every day.  Which can also be dangerous and unhealthy.  

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

On 3/20/2017 at 1:17 PM, DarkRaichu said:

As for Perry, the sadist in me thinks Celeste's 3 miscarriages were direct results of Perry's abuse (shoving her or punching her).  By the time she was carrying twins, Perry toned down the abuse on Celeste (since he needed kids to trap Celeste) but acted his abuse on random women to "compensate"

Yet another aspect of the Celeste character's story that Nicole Kidman has personal experience with. She has had at least a couple of miscarriages - one at the beginning of her marriage to Tom Cruise and the other at end end. (I'm not suggesting any sort of violence by Tom Cruise caused those miscarriages, BTW...just pointing out that Kidman has had miscarriages & struggles with fertility.)

And I agree absolutely about Perry toning down the abuse when Celeste was pregnant with the twins because he knew they would serve to trap her further (and that he probably sought out other women to abuse- Jane - during this time. 

23 hours ago, nara said:

I think that's possibly a real explanation of why she is able to live in that neighborhood and do nothing but run and drink coffee all day.

^^^This comment was made about all Jane's pot. 

Obviously, I chose the wrong career path, because doing nothing but running & drinking coffee all day is pretty much my idea of a perfect life. Haha. 

I guess I'm the only one who doesn't mind the scenes of Jane running. Maybe it's because I'm a runner. 

In fact, the only time I'm really sold on Shailene's acting and the intensity of Jane's rage & conflicted thoughts about that night & her son is when she's running or has just entered her house after running.  She definitely has the "pensive/working some deep stuff out in my head/if I didn't take all my anxiety and run, I'd completely lose it" run and running face down.  I sometimes see it in others & I've seen it myself in race pics from fancier races that have photogs along the route (which I don't buy lol).  

I find her to be much better in scenes where she's in motion - walking, moving, etc. She's much more of a physical actress - she is more adept to acting with her body than her face, if that makes sense. She does better IMO in scenes where's a larger physical part to rather (like running, or even walking/entering the house with Ziggy) than sitting and saying lines (especially with Maddie & Celeste). I also think her acting is pretty believable in her interactions with the Ziggy character, but when she has scenes with most of the adults....blah....

Edited March 21, 2017 by MyPeopleAreNordic

[Keepitmoving]

Quote

I guess I'm the only one who doesn't mind the scenes of Jane running. Maybe it's because I'm a runner. 

No your not the only one, I mentioned this as one of the things she does to deal with that pent up anger/rage she has from being raped. At times she looks like she considers what would happen if I just keep running right over the cliff, then she has that raging music with all the cuss words to accompany her on those runs. Like I said, when she came in from her run she looked like she was not only trying to catch her breath from the run but also trying to catch it from all that rage, then she bent over and started crying. I too get the running and it doesn't bother me either. 

So based on the flashbacks, did I not see Jane in the dress she got raped in, along with some other people from the community like the African-American guy and the Asian-American woman at the same party? Wait a minute, where exactly was she living when she was raped, not in Monterey right?

Edited March 21, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[kj4ever]

So was anyone else disappointed that the bite mark wasn't used to clear poor Ziggy?  I mean seriously that little kid has some jacked up teeth and one look at that bite mark with the perfect little teeth marks would show it wasn't him.

Maybe I watched to much Law and Order SUV in the 2000's, but it seems like a no freakin' brainer to me.

Ed totally has a weird thing with Maddie's eldest.  Not saying sexual or anything like that, but there is something going on there.

[Lemons]

1 minute ago, Keepitmoving said:

 

So based on the flashbacks, did I not see Jane in the dress she got raped in, along with some other people from the community like the African-American guy and the Asian-American woman at the same party? Wait a minute, where exactly was she living when she was raped, not in Monterey right?

I can't figure that out either. The dress she had on looked like a teen prom type dress. Where exactly did she meet this somewhat older guy while wearing this dress?  The hotel was ocean front. Where was it?

[Keepitmoving]

Just now, Lemons said:

I can't figure that out either. The dress she had on looked like a teen prom type dress. Where exactly did she meet this somewhat older guy while wearing this dress?  The hotel was ocean front. Where was it?

Yeah, it definitely looked like the same blue dress, but her hair looked like it was pinned up and she had tiara on? Was that a tiara I saw on her head? I am confused about where it all took place and to see people from the town there has really thrown me.

[JBC344]

My guess is Jane was raped somewhere between Santa Cruz where she grew up and Monterey. 

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

Small gripe: Nicole Kidman's wig situation has been really uneven throughout the series so far.

It was AWFUL for most of the first episode but here have moments since where I didn't notice it all either way or it's looked absolutely natural.  Then there are brief scenes again where it looks terrible.   I know the scenes & episodes aren't necessarily filmed in order, but the continuity with Nicole's wig game has bothered me to no end. (It really takes me out of the "she's soooo beautiful and this character is so well-put-together but hiding something" part of the character when the wig is AWFUL at times.)  In this episode I mostly didn't notice it (ie: it looked natural) except for a few close-ups after the violence/sex scene with Perry. I get her hair should be messed up then, but it should look like messed-up hair, not a messed-up wig.  /rant over

Edited March 21, 2017 by MyPeopleAreNordic

[Keepitmoving]

4 minutes ago, JBC344 said:

My guess is Jane was raped somewhere between Santa Cruz where she grew up and Monterey. 

You know what? I'm thinking that was a flashback and it may have been a flash forward of the night that the murder of who we don't know yet, took place. Jane strikes me as the type who would recycle a dress, although not the dress she got raped in...yeah, I'm back to being confused again, LOL.