S07.E13: Bury Me Here

[BloatedGuppy]

1 minute ago, Timetoread said:

The problem I have with this Negan storyline is the one-noteness of it.  I don't buy for one second that a couple hundred of armed men are so afraid of a dude with a tricked out bat and diarrhea of the mouth.  They need to show WHY people follow this idiot. 

They have tried, not always successfully, to demonstrate how Negan is able to gather and maintain loyalty. This was the purpose of sidebars like his interaction with Carl and his treatment of Eugene. Negan operates with a mixture of hair trigger menace and effusive bonhomie. He lavishes praise and favors on those who do good turns by him, and uses creative brutality against those who don't. Staying on Negan's good side is rewarding. The longer you do so, the more favor you accumulate and the more power you enjoy inside the structure he's assembled, the more motivated you are to help perpetuate things.

Now I say "not always successfully" because the show has often strayed too far into the brutality side of the spectrum with Negan, and they've had him indulge in a few too many pointlessly petty humiliations of his own people. This breaks down the suspension of disbelief. It's something I complained about frequently last half season. Could a man like Negan operate using a blend of back patting and terror? Absolutely. Has the show shot itself in the ass repeatedly by trying to ramp up the Saviors' "antagonism factor" through making them out to be cartoon villains for no reason? Sadly, also absolutely. 

[picklesprite]

May be my favorite episode of all. Y'all have already said why.

[SoSueMe]

9 minutes ago, BloatedGuppy said:

They have tried, not always successfully, to demonstrate how Negan is able to gather and maintain loyalty. This was the purpose of sidebars like his interaction with Carl and his treatment of Eugene. Negan operates with a mixture of hair trigger menace and effusive bonhomie. He lavishes praise and favors on those who do good turns by him, and uses creative brutality against those who don't. Staying on Negan's good side is rewarding. The longer you do so, the more favor you accumulate and the more power you enjoy inside the structure he's assembled, the more motivated you are to help perpetuate things.

Now I say "not always successfully" because the show has often strayed too far into the brutality side of the spectrum with Negan, and they've had him indulge in a few too many pointlessly petty humiliations of his own people. This breaks down the suspension of disbelief. It's something I complained about frequently last half season. Could a man like Negan operate using a blend of back patting and terror? Absolutely. Has the show shot itself in the ass repeatedly by trying to ramp up the Saviors' "antagonism factor" through making them out to be cartoon villains for no reason? Sadly, also absolutely. 

What a great analysis of Negan's character. You nailed it.

[AngelaHunter]

12 minutes ago, BloatedGuppy said:

Now I say "not always successfully" because the show has often strayed too far into the brutality side of the spectrum with Negan,

Agree with all you said, and especially this. When he brutally throws a doctor into a fire alive for basically no reason at all it's impossible to see him as anything but an insane, out-of-control sadist. Everyone there knows they could very well be the next person tortured or murdered for the smallest infraction, real or imagined, so there's no way they wouldn't conspire to get rid of Negan.

[CletusMusashi]

The end of the episode is, of course, the Morgan stuff that everybody will be talking about tomorrow. And quite rightfully. Not only is Morgan all out of bubble gum again, but along the way he actually did some reasonably competent detective work. Much as I disagreed with Morgan's policy toward Wolves (let them help themselves to guns, fight to protect their lives even as they laugh about how they're going to escape and kill more people, yadda yada yada," you've got to give the man credit. He can usually stop people without killing them, he can build an actual prison cell himself, and he understands how to investigate crimes.  Morgan is a better cop than Rick is.

However, what I liked just as much was at the beginning of the episode. When he was drawing the line with Carol. "Oh, so for you I'm supposed to lie to all my friends, but then as soon as you snap your fingers I'm supposed to be your personal Magic N...ever-Tiring Exposition Guy? Yeah, just so we're clear on this: I am not a sidekick. When you want to put on your big girl pants and actually go to Alexandria, give me a yell."

[Dodginblue]

In previous episodes,  Ezekiel dismissed Richard's advice about the need to fight the Saviors, leading him to concoct a devious plan to push the confrontation forward, which cost Benjamin his life and Richard's as well when Morgan snaps but then Carol shows up, who Ezekiel barely knows, announces they have to get ready to fight and Ezekiel calmly agrees.   Not that Carol is motivated by Benjamin's death, presumably,or at least not so much,  but more probably because she found out that Abraham and Glenn have been killed and that Negan is controlling Alexandria.   

Poor Richard.   A prophet is not without without honor except in his own country.

[lulee]

24 minutes ago, Dodginblue said:

In previous episodes,  Ezekiel dismissed Richard's advice about the need to fight the Saviors, leading him to concoct a devious plan to push the confrontation forward, which cost Benjamin his life and Richard's as well when Morgan snaps but then Carol shows up, who Ezekiel barely knows, announces they have to get ready to fight and Ezekiel calmly agrees.   Not that Carol is motivated by Benjamin's death, presumably,or at least not so much,  but more probably because she found out that Abraham and Glenn have been killed and that Negan is controlling Alexandria.   

Poor Richard.   A prophet is not without without honor except in his own country.

I don't think Ezekiel agreed about going to war *because* Carol said it. He agreed with it, but it its after a long time being held down by them, and I think the constricting feeling, illustrated by Richard's desperation, that they can't go on like this forever. 

[Lamima]

1 hour ago, BloatedGuppy said:

Yeesh this show. Even the passable episodes are groaning under the weight of accumulated garbage. This has easily been the worst half season in the show's history, which is quite an accomplishment after the most recent half-season and the hospital debacle, to say nothing of the S2 tedium at Herschel's Farm.

GOOD

• The writers finally found a way to return Carol and Morgan to the land of Characters Actually Doing Something. Morgan snapping when a replacement son dies makes sense for him (although that relationship was only very vaguely sketched in). Carol finding out about Alexandria and becoming motivated works for her, although her departure never really made any sense to begin with, so it's less an arc closing and more the writers continuing to waffle around with her character. That said, this is the good section, so I digress.
• Khary Payton continues to deliver in his scenes as Ezekiel. He's got a good stage voice.
• This is actually a surprisingly satisfactory ending to the Richard arc, both in terms of sketching in motivations (he felt his wife and daughter died due to inaction) and in terms of his death having the catalytic effect he would have wanted it to...even if the circumstances surrounding it aren't how he would have chosen it. Good shade of grey supporting character and one of the few capably handled by the show in recent seasons.
• There was no risible CGI to scoff at, and this episode did not subject us to either the junkyard people OR the fishing village. Hurrah!
• Morgan's choice to engage Richard's plan by killing him was some nice outside the box thinking.

BAD

• Both the dialogue on the porch with the woman quoting floraly about the garden, and the dialogue during the first melon delivery (the pregnant pause before the "no" and "quite the opposite") was terrible. Leaden, overwritten, not how people actually talk. This isn't an area where I'd normally fault the show over much so it sort of stood out.
• The death of the Impossibly Earnest Boy Who Was Clearly Marked For Death From The Beginning finally happened, and it was just as ridiculously and clumsily foreshadowed as one might expect. That's the kind of ham handed scripting I expect from high school drama students. 
• Why did the entourage from The Kingdom just stand and stare impotently while Morgan choked Richard to death? Everyone on both sides seemed equally surprised. The Saviors weren't baying for blood or demanding they stand down. Why would no one interfere? That whole sequence was puzzling.
• Lennie James having a flash cut freakout was probably not the most elegant way to portray Morgan's grief over the death of Benjamin. If they'd done a better job establishing that relationship to begin with, no freakout or signposting would have been necessary at all, the audience simply could have intuited his grief and anger. This is something plaguing the show a lot in latter seasons, this...plonkiness in terms of plotting and characterization. It's terribly heavy handed and amateurish.
• I feel like it would've been pretty easy to just drive right through those shopping carts. Probably smart, too, given it had the hallmarks of an ambush.
• That ending shot with the cornball "uplifting" music and the happy gardening was a ludicrous tonal departure. It's the 2nd or 3rd this the show has been guilty of this during this half season, so it seems evident they're trying to battle the ratings loss from last half season's grim-a-thon with a bunch of force-fed dippy enthusiasm. Early seasons of Walking Dead were grim and relentless. They didn't need to be counter balanced with tinkly music and corny upbeat dialogue. How about writing a better show. That's good for ratings!
• I find it hard to imagine Carol would choose to go to the Kingdom and not Alexandria upon discovering what happened to her friends. That's the natural course of action after hearing about a tragedy...to find the people you care about and give/receive comfort. Alas, she goes to the Kingdom because the show needs to keep the cast split up for budgetary reasons. 
• That one super antagonistic Savior still being there after being the focal point of all problems several deliveries in a row puts a lot of strain on the whole "reasonable bad guy" angle. It just makes them look inept. Leave him at home! He's a troublemaker!

I agree with all of this.

[diebartdie]

9 minutes ago, lulee said:

I don't think Ezekiel agreed about going to war *because* Carol said it. He agreed with it, but it its after a long time being held down by them, and I think the constricting feeling, illustrated by Richard's desperation, that they can't go on like this forever. 

It's not just because of Benjamin and Richard, it's also because Zeke knows the next delivery will be out of the stocks for his own people. That garden, the "royal garden" was not his special garden just for him, it was just for the Saviors and it's all burned up now.

[SimoneS]

So Morgan and Carol are only shaken out of their bullshit "no kill" stupor when it impacts someone they really care about. Whatever. I know the writers are going for the over the top drama, but it is pathetic.

Edited March 13, 2017 by SimoneS

[lmsweb]

I liked that they added someone tonight, even in a small part, who is most likely Muslim. The first few seasons we saw an awful lot of white people and it was a running joke that there could only be so many black people on the show - every time they introduced a new person of colour we all groaned, waiting for the inevitable killing off of one of the others.

I can't really add to any of the other posts. This has been one of the best episodes in the last few seasons, perhaps even the whole series.

[TxanGoddess]

When the Heath Ledger lookalike was dying, did he ask Morgan to teach his little brother how to use the sticks, or was it some total other thing?

My middle aged hearing could be better, but I watched this with a bunch of college kids, and I have to admit I was too vain to ask them to back it up and use the CC for me. 

Edited March 13, 2017 by TxanGoddess

[AngelaHunter]

7 minutes ago, TxanGoddess said:

My middle aged hearing could be better

I don't think it's just you. I often have trouble hearing the dialogue. I don't know if the tinkly piano, heart-rending violin or swelling ("Now, audience, we're telling you that you need to feel sad here") orchestral roar drowns it out or the sound is just bad. I know I miss a lot of what is said.

[lmsweb]

OK I am on re-watch and just did a facepalm. When the kid gets shot, and the Saviours are getting ready to leave, Morgan very loudly says "we need to get him to Carol's, we loaded her up with all the medical supplies". Just me, or was that kind of dumb? Sloppy writing or something that is going to be used to move the plot along (since Morgan is now at Carol's and sharpening sticks with what I imagine to be an insane cackle in the background of his mind). I doubt the Saviours KNOW where the house is exactly, but it wouldn't take much to figure out that they're stockpiling medicine AWAY from the Kingdom.

12 minutes ago, TxanGoddess said:

When the Heath Ledger lookalike was dying, did he ask Morgan to teach his little brother how to use the sticks, or was it some total other thing?

My middle aged hearing could be better, but I watched this with a bunch of college kids, and I have to admit I was too vain to ask them to back it up and use the CC for me. 

I am assuming he asked Morgan before at some point to teach his little brother with the stick since they were doing that early in the morning at the start of the episode.

What he did say was the whole "If I injure my enemy I injure myself" (or whatever that whole phrase is) that they were talking about earlier.

And don't feel bad - I have my CC on all the time and I usually watch this alone and without a gaggle of college aged students.

[CletusMusashi]

3 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

I don't think it's just you. I often have trouble hearing the dialogue. I don't know if the tinkly piano, heart-rending violin or swelling ("Now, audience, we're telling you that you need to feel sad here") orchestral roar drowns it out or the sound is just bad. I know I miss a lot of what is said.

I always use CC for this show. It only really bothered me during that one shower scene where it blocked Maggie's ass. But tonight I did have a moment of confusion when I drunkenly misread "Engine rumbling," as "Eugene rumbling." I mean, yeah, he probably is, after eating that entire jug of pickles, but do I really need an announcement every time?

[diebartdie]

1 minute ago, lmsweb said:

 I doubt the Saviours KNOW where the house is exactly, but it wouldn't take much to figure out that they're stockpiling medicine AWAY from the Kingdom.

Well consider this: Long Haired Asshole had just mortally wounded a young person, not Richard whom Rat-faced Boss had warned Zeke was going to be murdered if ANYTHING happened. Rat-faced Boss is pretty fucking over the whole thing, Negan, sadism, zombies, just fucking all of it so he just got his crew in the trucks and they drove away. Imagine the conversation on the way back to Neganville! Long Haired Asshole, "Oh shit man I blew that kids leg OFF! Im so rad! Negan's gonna let me have sexy times tonight for SURE!" Rat-faced Boss, "SHUT THE FUCK UP!" Besides, the deal between the Saviors and the Kingdom seems centered solely around fresh veggies and pork, not guns and drugs.

[walnutqueen]

OK they have NO business playing the sad Hershel's farm music ever again.

[AngelaHunter]

1 hour ago, BloatedGuppy said:

Why did the entourage from The Kingdom just stand and stare impotently while Morgan choked Richard to death? Everyone on both sides seemed equally surprised.

Yeah, why? I can understand the Saviors not interfering - in fact I was surprised they didn't instantly start placing bets with each other, using cantaloupes as currency - but for the Kingdom people, especially His Majesty, to simply stand there for the entire strangulation (and it took awhile) and not make a single move to stop Morgan? After all, they've known Richard a lot longer than they've known Morgan and had no idea Richard had set up a situation. That just looked stupid beyond belief. It would be as though a few weeks after Abraham joined CDB, he knocked Glenn down and started choking him for no apparent reason. Would Rick and Daryl stand there blinking and staring like morons until Glenn breathed his last? If TPTB let one of the Saviors take out Richard at least would have made sense.

[lmsweb]

3 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

Yeah, why? I can understand the Saviors not interfering - in fact I was surprised they didn't instantly start placing bets with each other, using cantaloupes as currency - but for the Kingdom people, especially His Majesty, to simply stand there for the entire strangulation (and it took awhile) and not make a single move to stop Morgan? After all, they've known Richard a lot longer than they've known Morgan and had no idea Richard had set up a situation. That just looked stupid beyond belief. It would be as though a few weeks after Abraham joined CDB, he knocked Glenn down and started choking him for no apparent reason. Would Rick and Daryl stand there blinking and staring like morons until Glenn breathed his last? If TPTB let one of the Saviors take out Richard at least would have made sense.

Since I'm on re-watch and this just happened....Ezekiel initially said to "stop this", and right at the same time Gavin says "Leave them". Ezekiel also put his arm out to gesture to his people not to move forward. I think he suspected something was up from the look on Morgan's face when Morgan asked Richard if he had told Ezekiel yet, and Richard was all "nah, we'll do that later" and Ezekiel was all "nope, we're totes going to talk about it now" and then the Saviours showed up.

I'm torn on Gavin. I think he is genuinely distressed over the escalating violence and the death of Heath Jr. I feel pretty confident that he knew he couldn't go back to Negan the day before and say "yeah, they were short, but they were really nice and said they'd bring us the missing melon of goodness tomorrow". Gavin had to make an example, if for no other reason than his own men not ratting him out, but he wanted Richard offed, not the kid.

[magemaud]

Is it really necessary to take 8 people and a huge truck to deliver a dozen cantaloupes? 

[CletusMusashi]

6 minutes ago, magemaud said:

Is it really necessary to take 8 people and a huge truck to deliver a dozen cantaloupes? 

Michonne would have brought them a deer. On foot.

[CletusMusashi]

Dear Richard: We liked your schtick better when it was called Shane.

[shanndee]

34 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

Yeah, why? I can understand the Saviors not interfering - in fact I was surprised they didn't instantly start placing bets with each other, using cantaloupes as currency - but for the Kingdom people, especially His Majesty, to simply stand there for the entire strangulation (and it took awhile) and not make a single move to stop Morgan? After all, they've known Richard a lot longer than they've known Morgan and had no idea Richard had set up a situation. That just looked stupid beyond belief. It would be as though a few weeks after Abraham joined CDB, he knocked Glenn down and started choking him for no apparent reason. Would Rick and Daryl stand there blinking and staring like morons until Glenn breathed his last? If TPTB let one of the Saviors take out Richard at least would have made sense.

This actually rings true for me. There have been numerous studies about diffusion of responsibility. The more people who witness an incident, the less likely anyone is to respond. They expect someone else will do something. The general population of the Kingdom waited for Ezekiel, but Ezekiel was shocked into paralysis. (see the murder of Kitty Genovese (Sp?) in front of entire apartment complex). People often simply don't/can't react.

This episode was a descent course correction. It was great to see Morgan and Carol active parts of moving the action forward. Lets hope TPTB can keep it up.

[CletusMusashi]

OK, I've got to ask. How do they have such precise times that moving a few shopping carts makes them noticeably late? I understand that watches and clocks would still work, but how the hell do you keep them all that precisely synchronized?

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

27 minutes ago, CletusMusashi said:

Dear Richard: We liked your schtick better when it was called Shane.

Agreed, plus he had too much hair.  Dick should have shorn the follicles in remembrance and homage to the debt he had accrued in getting Ben killed.

Speaking of our favorite BF-turned-crazed-psycho...  when he buzzed his hair after leaving Otis as a chew-toy, it meant he was a-Shaned of himself for truly going off the deep end and realizing he had mentally taken a detour off the reservation.

Edited March 13, 2017 by iRarelyWatchTV36

[rmontro]

3 hours ago, bosawks said:

You know, if you take out the Negan episodes, I'm coming around on this season....

I was thinking that if you take out the episodes with the junkyard people, it would be better.  I enjoy Negan, in all his comic excesses.

3 hours ago, TigerLynx said:

I did enjoy the looks of horror, and damn I don't want to piss this guy off looks, from the Saviors and Kingdom people.

Yeah, Gavin about jumped out of his skin when Morgan came up to him to talk after he took out Richard.

Someone mentioned Gavin might come around to the good side.  Maybe.  He seems to be pretty reasonable for a Savior.  Apparently he was the one who made the deal with Ezekiel to keep the drop offs outside the Kingdom.  I think he said something about avoiding the hassle.  Only thing is, why make such a fuss over one cantaloupe?  And there were only 12 cantaloupes all together.  Is it even worth the Saviors time to come pick up 12 canteloupes?  As large a group as they are, how far is that going to go, anyway?  I guess fresh melons are at a premium in the apocalypse.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

3 minutes ago, CletusMusashi said:

OK, I've got to ask. How do they have such precise times that moving a few shopping carts makes them noticeably late? I understand that watches and clocks would still work, but how the hell do you keep them all that precisely synchronized?

They have all been on AST* since Day 0.  Duh.  ;)

[* = Apocalypse Standard Time]

[Dobian]

I think they need to do ten or twelve more episodes where the Saviors individually bully someone so the show firmly establishes motivation for taking them out.  There just isn't enough motivation yet.

[shanndee]

4 minutes ago, CletusMusashi said:

OK, I've got to ask. How do they have such precise times that moving a few shopping carts makes them noticeably late? I understand that watches and clocks would still work, but how the hell do you keep them all that precisely synchronized?

Was it to just to make them late? I thought Richard placed it there in part for the others to find his pre-dug grave. He expected to die, and he wanted them to know where to put him.

[mightysparrow]

4 minutes ago, rmontro said:

I was thinking that if you take out the episodes with the junkyard people, it would be better.  I enjoy Negan, in all his comic excesses.

Yeah, Gavin about jumped out of his skin when Morgan came up to him to talk after he took out Richard.

Someone mentioned Gavin might come around to the good side.  Maybe.  He seems to be pretty reasonable for a Savior.  Apparently he was the one who made the deal with Ezekiel to keep the drop offs outside the Kingdom.  I think he said something about avoiding the hassle.  Only thing is, why make such a fuss over one cantaloupe?  And there were only 12 cantaloupes all together.  Is it even worth the Saviors time to come pick up 12 canteloupes?  As large a group as they are, how far is that going to go, anyway?  I guess fresh melons are at a premium in the apocalypse.

I wondered about that myself.  Just think of the gasoline they burned to go back and forth to pick up ONE CANTALOUPE!  I can't imagine that the Saviours are dependent on anything they're getting as tribute from either the Kingdom or the ASZ.  I think it's more about the mind-game.  After all, the Saviours took all of Alexandria's mattresses and then proceeded to burn them.  They didn't need them; they just wanted to take something from the Alexandrians.

Gavin definitely did jump when Morgan moved closer to him.  Either he's going to take out hippie-boy because he's caused more trouble than he's worth or hippie-boy is going to stage a coup (because he realizes his time is up) and take Gavin out.  It's also possible that the death of Heath-lite might cause Gavin to reconsider his job of going around terrorizing people.  He could be a good ally to the Kingdom if he decided to change sides.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

19 minutes ago, CletusMusashi said:

OK, I've got to ask. How do they have such precise times that moving a few shopping carts makes them noticeably late? I understand that watches and clocks would still work, but how the hell do you keep them all that precisely synchronized?

 

12 minutes ago, shanndee said:

Was it to just to make them late? I thought Richard placed it there in part for the others to find his pre-dug grave. He expected to die, and he wanted them to know where to put him.

I believe it was a combination of the two.  Sabotage + (burial) Plot.

[Lakebum]

3 hours ago, BloatedGuppy said:

BAD

• I find it hard to imagine Carol would choose to go to the Kingdom and not Alexandria upon discovering what happened to her friends. That's the natural course of action after hearing about a tragedy...to find the people you care about and give/receive comfort. Alas, she goes to the Kingdom because the show needs to keep the cast split up for budgetary reasons. 
•  

I think she went to The Kingdom because she wanted answers NOW, and the Kingdom is much closer to her hideaway than is Alexandria.

[spiderpig]

West Coaster here, so I just finished the show and haven't read any of the earlier comments.

Finally!  A great ep that was interesting, advanced the plot, allowed our heroes to focus on what they have to do, motivated Morgan and Carol (yay!), and no Negan.

I have to admit to a senior moment/decade - where did Morgan get his stick in the first place?  I guess I could Google, but that's what you guys are here for.

[Iguessnot]

33 minutes ago, mightysparrow said:

I wondered about that myself.  Just think of the gasoline they burned to go back and forth to pick up ONE CANTALOUPE!  I can't imagine that the Saviours are dependent on anything they're getting as tribute from either the Kingdom or the ASZ.  I think it's more about the mind-game.  After all, the Saviours took all of Alexandria's mattresses and then proceeded to burn them.  They didn't need them; they just wanted to take something from the Alexandrians.

Gavin definitely did jump when Morgan moved closer to him.  Either he's going to take out hippie-boy because he's caused more trouble than he's worth or hippie-boy is going to stage a coup (because he realizes his time is up) and take Gavin out.  It's also possible that the death of Heath-lite might cause Gavin to reconsider his job of going around terrorizing people.  He could be a good ally to the Kingdom if he decided to change sides.

Why the hell did they have that ONE cantaloupe rigged up like it was a bomb? And nobody else was in the back of that huge truck accompanying the melon. Do they not know you can carry the thing in your lap? They've used the smaller station wagons before, why not for the single melon?

Edited March 13, 2017 by Iguessnot

[Nashville]

4 hours ago, Straycat80 said:

Good episode. Only three left. I'm betting we have to wait for next season for the war on the Saviors. 

In the season finale, I'm expecting to see the Allied forces (ASZ / Hilltop / GPKs / the Kingdom) lined up against the Axis of the Saviors, lots of tension, lots of eye twitching, lots of different scenes of different people pointing guns at the Other Side - then go to blackout as a single shot rings out.

And we have to wait until next season to find out who fired the first shot of the war.

Again.

 

4 hours ago, Red Fields said:

Yes, why have guns if you are willing to hand them over.

I just figured for Movie Night the Kingdom folks had been season-binging on a set of Lost DVDs they had found somewhere, and they got infected with Kate Syndrome. Kate never found a weapon she didn't immediately proceed to lose, or hand over to an opponent.

 

15 minutes ago, spiderpig said:

I have to admit to a senior moment/decade - where did Morgan get his stick in the first place?  I guess I could Google, but that's what you guys are here for.

From Eastman, the Goat Cheese Aikido Warrior.

[CletusMusashi]

One thing I liked was that this ep was very aware of the butterfly effect. If Ben had spent the day with Carol, he'd have lived. In which case... who would have died instead? And would they have been an important enough character to start a war over, or would it have just been Archer Girl or Random Ginger Guy? If Carol and Morgan had split town early, they wouldn't have had to see anyone die that day. Would that mean Morgan could hold on to a bit more of his sanity? And/or would it mean that Carol would just go back to ASZ and read another book for two months? I like that the writers seem to actually be aware of these questions, instead of just hitting us with (sometimes quite literal) railroad plots.

When Ben Franklin wrote:

“For the want of a nail the shoe was lost,
For the want of a shoe the horse was lost,
For the want of a horse the rider was lost,
For the want of a rider the battle was lost,
For the want of a battle the kingdom was lost,
And all for the want of a horseshoe-nail.”

he could very easily have been talking about that one stupid cantaloupe.

[millennium]

What a formulaic, predictable, shamelessly manipulative, sorry-ass episode.   If it gets good reviews, it's only because its cliched mediocrity has appeased a viewership so repeatedly abused this season that anything resembling an actual story, no matter how maudlin, will be hailed like the return of a long lost son. 

God that sucked.

[thuganomics85]

So, at long last, Morgan, Carol, Ezekiel, and the rest of The Kingdom will likely finally (FINALLY!) get into the game.  Richard tries to start a conflict between them and the Saviors, but instead of getting himself killed like he thought/hoped, this Benjamin kid gets shot and dies.  This leads Morgan to finding out the truth, snapping, and just flat-out murdering Richard in front of both the Saviors and Ezekiel and his henchmen, and pretty much scaring everyone.  He also tells Carol the truth about what Negan did to Glenn and Abraham, so now he's now staying at house and sharpening his stick (not a euphemism!), and Carol is back with The Kingdom, wanting to go the war, and Ezekiel agrees that is has gotten to this point.  Now, that's one hell of a turnaround!

I did enjoy the Gavin guy, who was annoyed that the other Savior killed Benjamin instead, and then was clearly freaking out over Unhinged Morgan.  He seemed to be rethinking a few ideals during that exchange!

The return of Shiva makes me wonder if they are setting things up for her to get a meal or two down the line...

While I guess it sucks that Benjamin died, I was way more worried about Jerry.  They kept focusing on him throughout the standoff, and I really got worried there for a second.  Some of the highlights this admittedly weak season has been Ezekiel and Jerry, and all the times the former has to yell "Jerry!" to the later, like he's some unruly child.

A sizable enough improvement, I guess, but I tend to enjoy The Kingdom episodes anyway, since I find Ezekiel great to watch, and Lennie James is one of the stronger actors on this show.  But with three episodes left, I wonder if we'll even get to a war, if that is all next season.  Either way, I suspect we still will be Negan's smirk and one-dimensional gloating next year too.

[Save Yourself]

I thought that was a really good episode, easily my favourite non-Rick episode all season. It is frustrating that both Benjamin and Richard are dead as most of us assumed would happen as soon as we met them but it was done in an effective way. Really wish that the Saviour leader had just turned around and shot Rat Face when he found out Benjamin had died. I was hoping that we could have hung on to Benjamin as it was nice to have someone (along with Tara) who is not yet totally jaded. Seeing the extent of Morgan's PTSD was enlightening and very well done - and should have been communicated to us two seasons ago so we could have been more empathetic to his pacifist stance. I liked that Carol now knows what happened to Glenn and am looking forward to her storyline integrating with CBDs again.

[Save Yourself]

And the parellel between Morgan beating Richard to death and Negan's killing of Glenn and Abraham is interesting, different reasons, same result. 

[Armchair Critic]

7 hours ago, mmecorday said:

RIP Rent-a-Center Russell Crowe and "Knight's Tale" era Heath Ledger.

 

7 hours ago, mmecorday said:

I will say Hail Mary's until Steve Gutenberg wins an Oscar.

LMAO, funny stuff. Glad the show is getting better.

[spiderpig]

6 minutes ago, Armchair Critic said:

  7 HOURS AGO, MMECORDAY SAID:

RIP Rent-a-Center Russell Crowe and "Knight's Tale" era Heath Ledger.

Funny you mentioned this, because I made Mr. pig pause the show when Richard was on so I could comment on how Richard had My Rusty's eyes.  And you're right about Heath Ledger.  The nose.  And when a character remarked "But not today" Mr. pig froze the frame to ask where he'd heard that line.  It was Djimon Hounsou's closing remark at the end of Gladiator.  

However they handled the Richard story arc, I was happy because it was interesting.  And it got Morgan off his butt.

[Gobi]

4 hours ago, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

 

I believe it was a combination of the two.  Sabotage + (burial) Plot.

That was also when he removed the cantaloupe.

[Vyk]

Glad that Carol finally knows about Glenn and Abraham and that she and Morgan woke the hell up.

From my perspective, all of what happened last night could've easily been avoided.  I put Benjamin and even Richard's deaths on no one but Ezekiel and Morgan.  Ezekiel for turning down Rick's offer to join in the fight way back in the midseason premiere, and Morgan for encouraging him to do so.  If they'd just taken Rick and the others up on their offer in the first place, none of this would've happened.  Richard wouldn't have enacted his plan, and he and Benjamin would still be alive.

RIP, Benjamin and Richard.  I really thought the former was being set up to die when the actual war with the Saviors began, and that quite possibly, the latter would be folded in with the main cast after it was over.  But instead, both are gone.  Poor Benjamin.  He was too young and too innocent.  And Richard . . . this is the most I've felt for him.  He was the member of the Kingdom who most seemed to get how severe this situation with the Saviors is, and for that, I liked him the most of the Kingdommers.  Too bad he had to die like that.

As much as I like Morgan finally waking up, I yelled out a great, big "DAMN, MORGAN!" when he attacked and killed Richard.  I still don't fully get why he did that.  Starting up Richard's plan, yes, but . . . fury over Benjamin's death, too, maybe?  I don't know.  Could someone clear that up for me, please?

Very tense episode.  But a damn good one.

Edited March 14, 2017 by Vyk

[Dodginblue]

2 minutes ago, Vyk said:

Glad Carol finally knows about Glenn and Abraham and that she and Morgan woke the hell up.

From my perspective, all of what happened last night could've easily been avoided.  I put Benjamin and even Richard's deaths on no one but Ezekiel and Morgan.  Ezekiel for turning down Rick's offer to join in the fight way back in the midseason premiere, and Morgan for encouraging him to do so.  If they'd just taken Rick and the others up on their offer in the first place, none of this would've happened.  Richard wouldn't have enacted his plan, and he and Benjamin would still be alive.

RIP, Benjamin and Richard.  I really thought the former was being set up to die when the actual war with the Saviors began, and that quite possibly, the latter would be folded in with the main cast after it was over.  But instead, both are gone.  Poor Benjamin.  He was too young and too innocent.  And Richard . . . this is the most I've felt for him.  He was the member of the Kingdom who most seemed to get how severe this situation with the Saviors is, and for that, I liked him the most of the Kingdommers.  Too bad he had to die like that.

As much as I like Morgan finally waking up, I yelled out a great, big "DAMN, MORGAN!" when he attacked and killed Richard.  I still don't fully get why he did that.  Starting up Richard's plan, yes, but . . . fury over Benjamin's death, too, maybe?  I don't know.  Could someone clear that up for me, please?

Very tense episode.  But a damn good one.

I think we're supposed to believe that Morgan strangling Richard while everyone watched was (a) cleverly putting Richard's plan to work by showing the Saviors that the Kingdom hadn't meant to short them, it was all Richard's fault, he was the only bad 'un and (b) to justify Morgan dropping his pacifist act and showing how conflicted he still is over the death of his son.

Mostly it just showed how ineffectual a leader Ezekiel is when it doesn't involve play acting the community theater king of nowhere or making sweet love to Carol with his pretty brown eyes.

[Lamima]

4 hours ago, millennium said:

What a formulaic, predictable, shamelessly manipulative, sorry-ass episode.   If it gets good reviews, it's only because its cliched mediocrity has appeased a viewership so repeatedly abused this season that anything resembling an actual story, no matter how maudlin, will be hailed like the return of a long lost son. 

God that sucked.

Agreed.

[BellyLaughter]

This episode should have been titled 

Morgan Is Tired Of Your Shit.

[ghoulina]

Well, Lennie James BROUGHT it this episode. He has long been one of my favorite actors on the show, even if I have found his character tiresome lately. I enjoy Ezekial and LOVE The Kingdom (that's where I'd live if I were in the ZA), so this episode was a lot better than most of the dreck we've been served lately. But it was still full of a bunch of WTFery. 

Carol, for instance. I get that she's tired of all the death and just wants to shut herself off from everyone, so she doesn't have to kill, but doesn't put anyone she cares about at risk either. Except....you're like 5 feet from the Kingdom and there hasn't been a single episode since she went all Unibomber that she hasn't had a visitor of some sort. And her attitude. Jesus God, writers. Carol has been my favorite character since poor Hershel was beheaded. She has been tough and ruthless, but she's never been an outright bitch for no reason. Now she's stomping around, brushing past people, acting like she's too good to say hello to nice, young boys. WTF? 

And then there's cantaloupe-gate. Okay, so you mean to tell me that Negan has a standing order for twelve cantaloupes. TWELVE fucking cantaloupes. And he just can't live with 11. That 12th cantaloupe is crucial. All that fucking stuff he's accumulated at their compound and a dozen melons is of the utmost importance? What is that? ONE breakfast for his wives? Anyone believing even IF the 12th cantaloupe was there he'd be satisfied with an offering of that size? And what a waste of resources. You need six guys to pick up twelve cantaloupes????

I actually really really liked what little we got of Benjamin, but I might be more upset about his death if it wasn't over a fucking cantaloupe. Also, a shot fired out of sight and we cut to commercial? You gotta FF (or wait through the break if watching live) to find out who died? Quit with the fucking gimmicks, AMC.  That is some cheap shit, right there, and it really takes you out of the moment. The kid deserved better than that. 

I knew Morgan was going to kill Richard, as soon as the dude said they had to SHOW the Saviors they understood. Yup. I knew what that was all about. What's irritating me is that I wanted Morgan to find his middle ground. I thought his "all life is precious" philosophy was stupid and dangerous, but I didn't want him back to Clear levels of insanity. Is there really no other way? He can't just find a way to function without being a monk or a crazed murderer? I just don't think that's fair to the character. 

And now that he's having HIS break, Carol's all - "You need some alone time. Here, come live in my little cottage. By yourself. Because there' some unwritten rule that only one person can occupy this domicile at a time". One in, one out. Now she's off to fight.

 

Wow, it sounds like I really hated the episode. And I didn't. I'd much prefer to watch this setting and these actors over Negan and his minions or a stand-alone Tara episode. But I feel like this show has just really gone off track with their character development and veered dramatically from the original tone of this story. It's gotten to where they're just padding everything around these "epic" showdown episodes and phoning it in for the rest. Things have gotten so weak, that the stuff I was able to handwave before, are just big, glaring holes that I can't look away from. It makes me sad, honestly. 

I'm going to go emotionally eat some cobbler with Jerry. 

[walnutqueen]

21 hours ago, CletusMusashi said:

Michonne would have brought them a deer. On foot.

That would be on 4 hooves, and a kill-shot through a prepubescent Coral, delivered by Ottis - the guy Shane should've died for murdering.

21 hours ago, CletusMusashi said:

OK, I've got to ask. How do they have such precise times that moving a few shopping carts makes them noticeably late? I understand that watches and clocks would still work, but how the hell do you keep them all that precisely synchronized?

Hershel's pocket watch?

And a shopping cart fence is the coolest thing ever, should I become enmeshed in a zombie apocalypse on one of my infrequent catfood runs.

Oh wait - a "Savior" just bloviated about world leaders.  He mentioned Kings, Presidents and Prime Ministers.  He apparently hasn't met Justin Trudeau, or Pere Pierre, who had less than zero fuddle duddles to give.

Edited March 14, 2017 by walnutqueen

[DEL901]

When Morgan told Carol about Glenn and Abraham and the others being killed by Negan and his crew, why didn't he mention that that Eugene had been kidnapped?  Yes, it is tragic they are dead, but Eugene was not as far as Morgan knew.  Why does no one ever mention rescuing him?