S03.E16: Into the Speed Force

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Quote

Desperate to stop Savitar and save his friends, Barry turns to the speed force for answers. H.R. gives Jesse some advice.

Promo:

[Lantern7]

"This week: Manpain, manpain, more manpain, and manpain. Next week: MUSICAL!!!"

Once again, Barry means so well, but he is a putz. Even the exradimensional force where he draws his speed from knows that. Nice to see old faces again, even if they were Speed Force avatars. Also, if you need an elevator, you gotta pound on the button. That's true everywhere. Everywhere.

I would like a gif of Jesse one-shotting Huckster. So funny. Of course she'd have to leave. I mean, I get Barry taking the load by himself, but she would've made a good Plan C.

Hi, Jay! Bye, Jay! And the gang has a new place to put the helmet. Good for them. Jay is now in the lead in the Savitar board, right? Because everything is Barry's fault, even if others make the decisions.

[phoenics]

**throws tv across the room**

I'm just so irritated by this westallen angst that really feels plot driven but whatever.

The episode had the potential to be really good - but I don't think it went deep enough in the speed force scenes with Barry.

And wtf show?  Iris says she didn't want Barry being with her out of obligation - and then they break up or are taking a break and Barry basically makes it seem like that's what he was doing or is gonna do now?  They won't be together - but his focus is on saving her - which is exactly what she was afraid of - she gets reduced to someone he's trying to save with no further connection.  I swear to GAH if they mess with Iris or sideline her again or demote her importance I will light CW up.

[cambridgeguy]

Speed force Eddie to Barry - You suck.

Speed force Ronnie to Barry - You suck.

Speed force Snart to Barry - You suck.

Barry to himself - I suck.

For the love of god, I think we get the point - can we move on? 

[GHScorpiosRule]

4 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

Speed force Eddie to Barry - You suck.

Speed force Ronnie to Barry - You suck.

Speed force Snart to Barry - You suck.

Barry to himself - I suck.

For the love of god, I think we get the point - can we move on? 

I wonder if this was a panacea to those that watch and hate Barry/think he sucks? Since apparently he "gets away with everything."

There. The show a knowledged it. Can we move on already, like @cambridgeguy said above?

God I'm getting shades of Smallville, with the back and forth of Clark sucking/being a BDA.??????

[kirinan]

Tired of the angst. Tired of the Barry/Iris drama. Tired of Barry being the worst superhero ever. Tired of the baby  Flash misbehavior. Tired of...oh, so much with this show.

But happy because...SNART! Grant Gustin and Wentworth Miller have bucketloads of chemistry, and I love watching them together. Made the whole angst-fest worth it.

[KirkB]

When the extradimensional energy source that gives you your powers tells you you're being an idiot, you should listen Barry.

Iris, who had every reason to break up with you, decided not to, so you thought it best to do it yourself?

I liked seeing Snart again. I really miss Snart.

Jay now seems to be the leading candidate for Savitar, right? So is that TOO obvious? As far as I know it HAS to be a speedster, which means Barry, Wally, Jesse or Jay. Jay is the one trapped in the speed force, and I could see the Flash people enjoying the idea of Barry having to fight someone who looks exactly like his dad.

[madhacker]

Yeah it was an angst fest but damn it it was worth it just to see that even the Speed Force Snart is awesome. God I've missed his dry wit. Please Berlanti, find a way for Snart to come back to Legends next year, even if it's a Snart from an alternate Earth, his snarkiness must be one of constants in any universe.

And it was awesome to see Robbie again, I'm just glad that Caitlan didn't join Barry on his little trip. Seeing her late husband would probably turn her to the Frost Side forever.

[xaxat]

Barry welcome, to This is how you fucked up our your Life!

Add me to the list of people tired of the on/off/on. . . nature of Barry and Iris. I actually like Wally and Jessie better. (So of course they got split up.)

Edited March 15, 2017 by xaxat

[mtlchick]

It's a cavalcade of (DCTV) stars telling Barry how much he sucks to the point he believes he does suck and to stop the suckage in eventually saving Iris, they break up! AGAIN! 

 

I need a drink.  

Quote

Jay now seems to be the leading candidate for Savitar, right? 

He's not pinging hard on that yet, but it wouldn't surprise me he "gave" himself up now so he can punish Barry to stop messing with everything in 2 months. 

[notagain]

Hasn't it been established in every episode since the break that knowing the future, making decisions based on knowing the future, is placing you onto the path of making the future you don't want to happen actually happen? So why did Jesse think going to Earth 3 would keep Savitar from using her? Girl, Savitar telling you he wants to use you is putting you on the path he wants you to go!

TPTB continually dumb down their characters to move plot, but that's been this show's problem since S01:E01. The usefulness of most of the characters are based on Barry being dumb as fuck. I'm questioning if he has the intelligence create Gideon. 

Edited March 15, 2017 by notagain

[GHScorpiosRule]

Oh for Fuck's sake!! Of course the the thought of trying to save the woman you love from being murdered in front of you, will consume you! You can also still love her, and keep looking for the way to save her, and you don't need to break her heart, and dump her in the process! It's either one or the other on this show with these two! 

I was peeeved at why Iris took the ring off (I vented my spleen in the relationships thread), and I hate, FUCKING HATE with the heat of a gazillion million suns, the writers who wrote this craptastic shitfest, that the ONLY reason why Barry proposed was because he wanted to change the future so she wouldn't die. What? Did his love for her that has lasted over half his life, have nothing to do with it? Did he plan on NEVER EVER marrying her?! To them I say *FUCK OFF!??The ENTIRE LOT OF YOU!!?????

So again, Barry is left looking like a selfish and unfeeling asshole.

pardon my language-I'm one week out of major surgery and doped up on the good drugs and feeling loopy and pissed.

[phoenics]

9 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Oh for Fuck's sake!! Of course the the thought of trying to save the woman you love from being murdered in front of you, will consume you! You can also still love her, and keep looking for the way to save her, and you don't need to break her heart, and dump her in the process! It's either one or the other on this show with these two! 

I was peeeved at why Iris took the ring off (I vented my spleen in the relationships thread), and I hate, FUCKING HATE with the heat of a gazillion million suns, the writers who wrote this craptastic shitfest, that the ONLY reason why Barry proposed was because he wanted to change the future so she wouldn't die. What? Did his love for her that has lasted over half his life, have nothing to do with it? Did he plan on NEVER EVER marrying her?! To them I say *FUCK OFF!??The ENTIRE LOT OF YOU!!?????

So again, Barry is left looking like a selfish and unfeeling asshole.

pardon my language-I'm one week out of major surgery and doped up on the good drugs and feeling loopy and pissed.

Ditto - girl thank you for saying this so vehemently.  I feel exactly the same way.

[RedVitC]

Quick initial thoughts: Some of the beats didn't work for me, but the episode itself kept me on the edge of my seat. I don't like that Barry and Iris are taking 'space', that's a given.

Barry and Iris have been together since episode 2, with very little internal relationship drama (external Savitar stuff only made them closer until one episode ago). So much praise and articles were written about how it's so lovely to have a stable couple, etc. So I admit I'm a little confused at people complaining about how much on/of drama for Barry and Iris there is when we're only one episode into it. 

Edited to add: Of course I prefer them 'on', but this might be the first on/off drama in a long time, so I don't get acting like it's a thing that happens a lot (A few weeks ago people were wondering about all their happy moments). And to be clear, I don't mean being upset at the angst (I'm upset too), but the oh,look they're off "again" sentiment.

Edited March 15, 2017 by RedVitC
Edited to clarify.

[thuganomics85]

Man, this is what I get for underestimating Barry!  When he proposed Iris a mere two episodes ago, I told him not to fuck it up like Oliver did his, and look at him!  He not only did fuck it up, he rucked it up in less then half of the time Oliver did!  He truly is the fastest man alive!!

Seriously, I still don't think I quite got what happened.  Basically, Iris seem to be saying she understood now that Barry did love her was ready to move forward, but Barry was suddenly all "Actually, I do think my proposal was due to my concern for your future, so actually, lets not only call if off, but take a break!"  I.... what the hell?  They really, really do not know how to write relationships on any of these DC shows.

Anyway, so Barry goes into the Speed Force to get Wally, and the SP represents themselves with Eddie Thawne, Ronnie Raymond, and Leonard Snart all bitching at him and rubbing it in his face that they all sacrificed themselves for him (really stretching it with the last one there, show.)  It goes as expected: Rick Cosnett is cool with the raspy voice, Robbie Amell is.... fine, I guess?  And then there is Wentworth Miller just devouring the scene, practically chewing on every word.  Like I would want it any other way!

Alas, Barry finally gets to Wally, and is helped by Jay Garrick, who takes Wally's place instead, so now both Barry and Wally get back home, but Jay is stuck in the Speed Force.  Now, I'm wondering if he'll end up being Savitar.  The sooner they reveal his identity, the better.  Already getting bored with it.

Meanwhile, Jesse decided to go after Savitar herself, and is able to injure him, but finds out that he has "plans" for her, so she jets off to Earth 3 to takeover for Jay, during his absent.  Yeah, that is totally going to work!

At least H.R. was helpful.  And the Caitlin/Cisco/Julian trio was pretty cool.  Oh, and Jesse L. Martin is fantastic as always.

So, of course, after all this drama, next week is when they are going to do the random episode where Barry and Kara are stuck in a musical, because everyone really wanted to see Grant Gustin and Melisa Benoist sing together.

Edited March 15, 2017 by thuganomics85

[Cthulhudrew]

Was Breakup Barry smiling slightly at the end there? Could that really have been "Future Flash" sabotaging Barry and Iris instead?

[GHScorpiosRule]

@RedVitC, my ire is not that they broke up (okay, to some extent, yes), but the implication that Barry only proposed to Iris, not because he loves her and wants to marry her, but SOLELY because to save her from being killed. Which I don't buy for a Fucking second. And that is why Iris took off the ring, claiming she wanted to be proposed to out of love AND that he should have gotten Joe's permission,(which, FUCK THAT and STFU Joe. Blessings I can get behind-And I come from a culture where arranged marriages still happen, and love marriages, have the would be couple ask for their parents' blessings), yet a few episodes back, Iris, scared and in tears told Barry she didn't want to die and told him to find a way to save her. This stupid show wants to break down this plan to save Iris as either being about a mission/fear OR love, but not both, which is bloody stupid. And then after Barry comes back from the Speed Force, he tells Iris she was right, which I don't think she was. They can hold off in getting married, but why "take some space?" I was railing at my tv when Iris didn't even hug Barry when he left to save Wally, and didn't even say "Good Luck, be CAREFUL, or I LOVE YOU."???

He didn't betray her, which is how she was acting. It's like the people on this show can't do things for a multitude of emotions. It has to be just one, and the more "obligatory" one, which pisses me off.

And other than Snart* all those people standing in for the Speed Force were wraiths!??

That's my theory and I'm sticking to it!

It was great to see Rick Cosnett again!?

*Can't wait to see you, Michael! Counting the days for the return of Prison Break!!??????

[TroopinFairy]

This season is boring to me because all it is is Barry whining about saving Iris. I know that Iris won't die(it's obvious that it's not happening) but, I kind-of wish that she does just to stop the whining and the drama. Flash point had promise but, it lasted only one episode. There are so many other interesting things and people on this show that could be explored but, all of it doesn't matter. All that matters is Iris. This episode said a lot to me about how Barry actually is. He talked about sacrificing himself to save Wally but, in the end Jay did it for him. That happens all the time on this show. I wish that there was one episode where Barry has to own up to all that he's done. Barry is a selfish ass. I don't hate Barry but, it's annoying to just see him slide by all the time. I'm also sick speed big bads. Hopefully the show will some-how figure out a non-speed big bad for next season. 

[ruby24]

I don't understand why Barry broke up with her. It makes no sense, not even the words he was saying. At the beginning of the episode, he was worried she was having doubts, and when she's ready to move forward at the end, he dumps her? WTF? All of a sudden he needs "space" when she's got potentially little time left to live?

That was some HORRIBLE writing. Unless he's gonna change his mind next week, this does not make any sense to me at all.

[RedVitC]

18 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

my ire is not that they broke up (okay, to some extent, yes), but the implication that Barry only proposed to Iris, not because he loves her and wants to marry her, but SOLELY because to save her from being killed. Which I don't buy for a Fucking second. And that is why Iris took off the ring, claiming she wanted to be proposed to out of love AND that he should have gotten Joe's permission,(which, FUCK THAT and STFU Joe. Blessings I can get behind-And I come from a culture where arranged marriages still happen, and love marriages, have the would be couple ask for their parents' blessings), yet a few episodes back, Iris, scared and in tears told Barry she didn't want to die and told him to find a way to save her. This stupid show wants to break down this plan to save Iris as either being about a mission/fear OR love, but not both, which is bloody stupid. And then after Barry comes back from the Speed Force, he tells Iris she was right, which I don't think she was. They can hold off in getting married, but why "take some space?" I was railing at my tv when Iris didn't even hug Barry when he left to save Wally, and didn't even say "Good Luck, be CAREFUL, or I LOVE YOU."???

He didn't betray her, which is how she was acting. It's like the people on this show can't do things for a multitude of emotions. It has to be just one, and the more "obligatory" one, which pisses me off.

 

Sorry, I should have made it more clear, but my post was definitely not aimed at you or anything like that. Just that tonight I've seen the sentiment pop up a few times that Barry and Iris have an on and off again relationship which is just not something that we've seen.

I definitely think something was a little off with how they wrote Iris at the beginning (she did say I love you, but it wasn't the way she usually does) of the episode and them taking space (yes, I refuse to call it a break up) is something I'm still trying to wrap my head around. I'm still trying to wrap my head around this entire episode. 

I think no one should die at the end of the season if we're going to return to a happier show...

[benteen]

Better than last week's episode but I agree the show is dragging itself down in its own misery.  An entire episode of the Speed Force telling Barry he sucks.  He does suck, I agree but still, it's repetitive.  And of course, Barry will let go of his angst only to reclaim it again in two weeks and do something stupid.

It was nice to see old faces turn up and John Wesley Shipp's big bright white caps.

[blugirlami21]

Interesting episode. Definitely better than the last two but still some issues. 

I'll start by saying I really like the speed force. I like that we get to see some familiar faces we haven't seen in a while and I like that the speed force makes Barry face his problems. While the outcome of that is not always satisfactory, it's usually a step in the right direction. I especially loved that the speed force admonished Barry for basically abusing the gift it gave him.

The speed force thinks very highly of Barry, definitely lends credence to HR telling Jessie she's not the real flash (which I loved btw). It doesn't seem to care much about the other flashes, which I find super interesting. 

But I digress. I think Barry has been fast enough to save Iris all along but seeing his failure to do so in the future messed with his confidence. It's a catch22. Now Barry believes that he can save Iris but he now thinks that he has to distance himself from her to do so. Sigh.

I actually do agree with him saying he proposed to her because he thought it would change her future and not because he loved her. The two aren't mutually exclusive. He proposed to her out of fear. I don't think he should have broken up with her but I'm not that mad at him either. Maybe he feels like he can't properly focus on saving her life if they're involved. It's dumb but I don't think he's able to think super clearly in this. I mean he's basically lost every race of this nature to save a loved one. He's never been fast enough to save them. That can mess anyone up.

The B story with Jessie was annoying. I wish that Savitar had messed her up a lot more tbh. I enjoyed seeing Eddie, Ronnie, and Leonard again. Am I the only one who thought Wally should have went with Jessie? 

I'm looking forward to a the music episode next week. The flash has been super angsty lately. Something lighter would be nice.

[Lady Calypso]

Barry sucks, yet he doesn't even end up trading himself for Wally. The change would have been him actually succeeding in trading himself. But, of course, he's the main character and he needs to sing next episode, so he doesn't get sacrificed. Lame.

Also lame is the predictable break-up. Cliche writing and pointless. Barry, spend all the time you can with Iris. It's not like you staying with her is going to get her killed. I mean, his paranoid ass thinks it will, but this could do the exact same thing. I mean, damn, at least try to be happy here! Once Iris dies, or someone else dies in her place, he'll feel guilty regardless. 

How nice to see familiar faces. Hi, Rick Cosnett! It would be so nice if you returned, but I'm afraid of how they'll destroy your character! Hi Robbie! Um...Ronnie and Caitlin were cute, but for your character's sake, maybe you should stay gone before you're rekilled. Hi Wentworth! You're awesome! That's all I got.

Danielle Panabaker looked very pretty in the Speed Force. 

I cheered when Jesse snapped at HR. Sometimes, I want to do the same thing about his "funny" rants. 

[tennisgurl]

I swear, I will have more to say about this later, but I just want to know: Is there some kind of actual written RULE in the Arrowverse writing room saying that no main couple can stay in a happy stable place for more than four episodes in a row?!?! And is it a also a rule that they have to break up for the stupidest, most contrived reasons you can possibly imagine? I swear...

[Athena5217]

Barry breaking up with Iris may be the most unrealistic thing I've seen on this show.  Yes, more unrealistic than a telepathic giant gorilla.  Barry has been in love with Iris his whole life, and when she says she does want to marry him, he does backsies on the proposal and saiyexthey need a beak?! If I wer airis, I would ask the Speed Force if I could trade Barry for Avatar Eddy.

[ruby24]

At least they set up the whole Oliver keeping a secret thing eight episodes before the break-up, so you knew the other shoe would drop at some point. This came out of nowhere in the second half of the last episode, and makes NO sense.

Barry at the beginning of the episode was all scared she would leave him, and then she says it's okay, so he says he's leaving her? Like, what? Why? There's literally NO reason for that. I don't think anyone who was mandated to write that break-up scene knew why it was happening.

Here's some real angst I came up with off the top of my head: Iris is pregnant when Savitar kills her, so she dies but the speed force inside her brings her back to life, while simultaneously killing their baby. Yes, that's very dark. And if you wanted to, you could use a tragedy like THAT to make Iris decide she can't be with Barry for a while. But seriously, try to come up with an actual REASON for things to happen.

[Whodunnit]

Loved to see all those actors again.

So the speedforce is where Snart ended up huh? (Basic rule of fiction, nobody's dead until you see the corpse.)

[Maverick]

 Savitar has plans for Jessie.  And Caitlin.  And Wally.  I've decided Savitar is a corporate middle manager.  You know the type...lots of plans, can't do shit to execute except tell other people to do it.

 Barry called the thing trying to kill him Zolomon, so it appears that's who's chasing Eobard since they look like the same creature.  Between that, Future Barry's message to Rip and the fact Savitar is imprisoned in the future they're ultimately going to tie the two threads together.  

[Lantern7]

8 minutes ago, Whodunnit said:

So the speedforce is where Snart ended up huh? (Basic rule of fiction, nobody's dead until you see the corpse.)

I think it was the Speed Force taking on the form of Snart. It probably practiced in the mirror for weeks. "Hello, Barry Allen. You're here. Again. You reeeeeeeeeaaaally must have fucked up bad to come back here."

[zannej]

This was an interesting one although the pace was a bit slow at some points. Didn't really need so much time of Caitlin with the ugly little baby (I think ALL babies are ugly). I'm a curmudgeon, I don't like babies or children. The speedforce trying to make Barry feel guilty for what could have been was a bit of a stretch in some regards. A part of me contends that what he sees in the speedforce is more a fabrication of his own mind & insecurities. In many ways, the things that happened were just as much Eobard's fault (if not more).

The speedforce version of Eddie saying that they only let him leave because Barry said he'd come to terms with his mother's death was dumb. I mean, I think Barry felt like he had come to terms with it, but his father being murdered in front of him reopened that wound. And Barry is still only 3 years in to this. He still has a lot to learn.

It was great to see Rick Cosnett and Wentworth Miller again.

I was a bit sad that Jay took Wally's place. Although, I sort of wanted to see what his personal hell would be (would it be back to being trapped in the iron mask again?) I wonder if Jay will inadvertently become Savitar because Barry can't find a way to get him out and he goes insane and forgets that he volunteered to enter. Unless Savitar somehow turns out to be a time remnant of Eobard or something...

I was surprised that HR was actually useful in this one. I loved his interactions with Jesse. I love how he thought he could stop her from leaving and risking her life and that he was willing to stand up to her. Although, why she didn't just say "Later!" and zip around him is beyond me. She could have been gone before he could blink. But having her punch him and say it was strangely satisfying was amusing.

I also really liked that for once HR actually realized that Savitar needed the armor because he's vulnerable underneath-- but, why is it that none of the supposed geniuses on the show never thought of that? Also, what happened to the armor piece Jesse stabbed him with? Did she get any DNA on it? They could examine the tip and analyze any tissue or blood. But I suppose that would give away who Savitar is and they can't have that reveal happen too soon.

Jesse is lucky that Savitar didn't want to kill her and only hurt her a little bit. Which makes me wonder if he's really Wally somehow. He doesn't have a British accent so I don't think he's Julian.

At least this episode didn't have anything insultingly sexist like the last one.

So, Jesse decides to go off to Earth 3. Does she even know much about Earth 3? Where will she live? How will she eat? What will she do for money? Will she just steal stuff and figure that it's ok because she's there to save people? And what about Earth 2 not having a Flash?

And then we get to probably the dumbest thing I've seen on the show: Barry being given the opportunity to put the ring back on Iris' finger and instead saying they need to have "space". WTF? Seriously? When he said "I love you" and there was a pause I was waiting for the "But" and thinking "If he says 'but' I'm going to punch someone." and then it came and it was worse than I expected. And the sad thing is, he completely lacked conviction. I felt like Grant didn't want to say the words and that Barry didn't really mean it. It just made absolutely NO sense whatsoever.

Is it because he felt guilty for the things the speedforce showed him and he's punishing himself because he thinks he doesn't deserve to be happy? It's just absolutely idiotic.

I just don't understand why the show has to stall this relationship.

Only other plausible thing I can think of is that the *real* Barry is still in the speedforce and someone else came out pretending to be Barry.

Edited March 15, 2017 by zannej

[scarynikki12]

So I guess Flashpoint changed Snart's motivation for sacrificing himself last season?  Cause I remember that scene and, while he'd been moving away from villainy towards heroism since choosing to join the Legends, it was his love for BFF Mick Rory that led to that sacrifice.  Barry didn't factor in at all.  Of course, this was said to Barry when the Speedforce was telling him truths and messing with his mind so it could easily have lied to further the guilt. 

[twoods]

Wait, why did WestAllen break up? This makes no sense. Stupid ass writers.

They better save Jay from the speed force. I want Jesse to come back.  Her and Wally and their adorable "I love you's" made me weepy. Man, I'm pathetic.

I wonder if Savitar is Wally. That sucks, but it would make sense. Or a screwed up Jay.

It was good seeing Eddie, Robbie, and Snart. 

Super excited about next week. I've waited three seasons to hear Grant sing (the 2 second karaoke doesn't count) for an entire episode. Can't wait for the Glee reunion.

[TwistedandBored]

Dammit Barry! Iris was ready to forgive and move on and he breaks up with her in order to save her? Dude! What if Iris dies? I mean we all know she won't but Barry doesn't know that. Why would he want to make the time they have such a miserable time? 

Seriously, Barry is selfish. He is worried about his feeling and how he is going to focus on saving her? What about how Iris is feeling? How about Iris point of view regarding her impending doom for a change? 

[TDT]

3 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

So, of course, after all this drama, next week is when they are going to do the random episode where Barry and Kara are stuck in a musical, because everyone really wanted to see Grant Gustin and Melisa Benoist sing together.

 

Would be interesting if this end up tying into the Savitar arc(somehow Barry drags Kara back to his Earth so she can help fight him)

[Bats27]

-They wasted no time getting rid of Jessie. Which is disappointing because I liked her and it makes her deciding to stay really pointless, TWO episodes later (face-palm). And she and Wally, were cute together. Just couldn't help yourselves could you showrunners (another face-palm).

-Also the reason why she couldn't come along was BS and ties into a really annoying and problematic cliché that these shows use way too often.  Oh and remember that Jessie was supposed to be a child genius, because the show sure doesn't?

-Barry breaks up with Iris (face-palm). They were actually kind of cute together writers, it was going fine now that they were actually a couple. BUT NO, you just couldn't let it go. You just HAD to throw more contrive "DRAAAMMAAA into it" didn't you (double face-palm).

-Another "big mask reveal" for the big bad speedster, for the THIRD season in a row, ugh.

[Trini]

So Jay gets left behind in speedster hell — that ain’t right at all.

So with Wally out, and Jay in, I’m thinking Jay is another possible candidate for Savitar.

Seriously show, you were doing so well subverting the trope — but now Barry wants to have “space” apart from Iris to save Iris? It just doesn’t fit what they’ve been showing all season.

Noooo! Jesse stay a little longer! The team needs more women! And more people punching HR! And now Earth-2 doesn’t have a Flash.

I still like Cavanugh, but this episode  was proof that HR is a waste of space and screentime this season.  He’s had a few good moments, but not enough to justify the other 90% of ridiculousness. I keep thinking “this would have been a better scene if it was with [X] instead of HR”.

Oh no. I’m glad they’ve been exploring Cisco’s powers, but it is already becoming a crutch for the show/team/writers. I’ve seen this on several other sci-fi shows, and it only gets more ridiculous as time goes on.

I’ll have more thoughts on the Speedforce + Barry later, but it was nice to see Jay, Eddie, Ronnie, and Snart back on the show!

Can’t believe they put this dreary episode right before the musical.

[Trini]

6 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I wonder if this was a panacea to those that watch and hate Barry/think he sucks? Since apparently he "gets away with everything."

There. The show a knowledged it. Can we move on already, like @cambridgeguy said above?

They've been acknowledging it since the start of Season 2. And even more so in the first half of this season -- but haters gotta hate.
 

4 hours ago, ruby24 said:

I don't understand why Barry broke up with her. It makes no sense, not even the words he was saying. At the beginning of the episode, he was worried she was having doubts, and when she's ready to move forward at the end, he dumps her? WTF? All of a sudden he needs "space" when she's got potentially little time left to live?

That was some HORRIBLE writing. Unless he's gonna change his mind next week, this does not make any sense to me at all.

There really wasn't a good reason. I'm hoping they don't wait until the end of the season to reunite them. At least they both reaffirmed that they still loved each other.

[Richness]

My hatred for all the stupid in this episode completed ruined my enjoyment in seeing Jay and all of Barry's deceased friends again (even if they were all Speed Force recreations).

[Jediknight]

Come on show, Ronnie isn't dead because of Barry.  The singularity that Ronnie died trying to stop was because Eddie killed himself.  Barry had nothing to do with that, Eddie's death set off everything.

[kirinan]

7 hours ago, scarynikki12 said:

So I guess Flashpoint changed Snart's motivation for sacrificing himself last season?  Cause I remember that scene and, while he'd been moving away from villainy towards heroism since choosing to join the Legends, it was his love for BFF Mick Rory that led to that sacrifice.  Barry didn't factor in at all.  Of course, this was said to Barry when the Speedforce was telling him truths and messing with his mind so it could easily have lied to further the guilt. 

I think it could have been an additional motivation. I've always thought WM played Snart as having a grudging admiration for Barry, and since he was definitely finding his inner hero throughout the first season of Legends (sniffle, waahhh, I miss him so much!), I could see that being in his mind. But I agree that saving Mick was probably the major reason Snart stepped in and sacrificed himself.

And btw, I'm so glad that I completely and thoroughly do not care about Barry and Iris as a couple, because I would also no doubt be upset at their breakup/break, if I did. Luckily, not an issue for me. I am, however, intrigued by the speculation of Jay as Savitar...

[Chicago Redshirt]

11 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

.Hi, Jay! Bye, Jay! And the gang has a new place to put the helmet. Good for them. Jay is now in the lead in the Savitar board, right? Because everything is Barry's fault, even if others make the decisions.

I didn't even think that real Jay=Savitar was a possibility before I came here. I would like to think golden age Flash -- smiled at Speed Force Snart's dig -- is unequivocally good and trustworthy. Then again, it was Jay who knew how/when to pull Barry from his original vision of IrisMurder. 

11 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

Speed force Eddie to Barry - You suck.

Speed force Ronnie to Barry - You suck.

Speed force Snart to Barry - You suck.

Barry to himself - I suck.

For the love of god, I think we get the point - can we move on? 

That's up to the writers. Hopefully they can go back to the Barry people signed up for: an adorkable, brilliant forensic scientist who acted logically and keeps selfishness and angst to a minimum.

11 hours ago, KirkB said:

Jay now seems to be the leading candidate for Savitar, right? So is that TOO obvious? As far as I know it HAS to be a speedster, which means Barry, Wally, Jesse or Jay. Jay is the one trapped in the speed force, and I could see the Flash people enjoying the idea of Barry having to fight someone who looks exactly like his dad.

There's a theory on the Internets that it doesn't have to be a speedster at all. Rather, that Savitar is

Abra Kadabra, a time-travelling member of Flash's Rogue Gallery from the 64th Century whose advanced tech seems like magic to 21-century people.

There have been other speedsters we've seen on the show, including Jessie Quick, the Rival and Velocity. I'd almost love it if they unmask Savitar and it turned out to be some rando.

10 hours ago, notagain said:

Hasn't it been established in every episode since the break that knowing the future, making decisions based on knowing the future, is placing you onto the path of making the future you don't want to happen actually happen? So why did Jesse think going to Earth 3 would keep Savitar from using her? Girl, Savitar telling you he wants to use you is putting you on the path he wants you to go!

Someone you love has just escaped a private hell. That's probably not the best time to announce you're going to jet out.

Does it strike anyone else as strange that a) HR took a far more serious turn in interacting with Jesse prior to her finding Savitar b) Jesse scored the first victory (or at least, apparent victory) against Savitar despite not being any faster than Wally (and probably not in the same league as Barry or Jay, who got their asses handed to them) c) No one else on Team Flash was involved in helping Jesse?

Or is that just all to be chalked up as inconsistent writing?

10 hours ago, RedVitC said:

Quick initial thoughts: Some of the beats didn't work for me, but the episode itself kept me on the edge of my seat. I don't like that Barry and Iris are taking 'space', that's a given.

Barry and Iris have been together since episode 2, with very little internal relationship drama (external Savitar stuff only made them closer until one episode ago). So much praise and articles were written about how it's so lovely to have a stable couple, etc. So I admit I'm a little confused at people complaining about how much on/of drama for Barry and Iris there is when we're only one episode into it. 

Edited to add: Of course I prefer them 'on', but this might be the first on/off drama in a long time, so I don't get acting like it's a thing that happens a lot (A few weeks ago people were wondering about all their happy moments). And to be clear, I don't mean being upset at the angst (I'm upset too), but the oh,look they're off "again" sentiment.

I don't know if people are acting like the on/off drama happens frequently. It seems like the comments are more about how going "off" in this context was contrived, and how it fits in with a pattern  of other Flarrowverse/genre shows where the powers that be don't seem to be capable of writing a decent romance.

Barry loves Iris deeply and has for a long time, and wanted to marry her. So why would the writers put in his mouth the thought that he wanted to marry her only in some strange effort to keep her safe? 

Iris has always considered Barry her best friend, and has realized that she loves him romantically. She knows that Barry has loved her forever. Why would she then be so shattered by such a proposal motivated by fear?

Joe has known Barry loved Iris for a long time and has supported them as a couple (despite the quasi-incest of it). Why then would he or anyone be torn up that Barry didn't ask for his permission/blessing when he'd implicitly given it?

[Grace19]

I was spoiled going into this episode, but nothing prepared me for how stupid that last scene was. It makes no sense any way you try to slice it.

"You were right, I proposed to you for the wrong reason. Even though I love you, I am going to embrace the future where you die and dump you, then move out so that the evil speedster that is running free will find it easier to capture and kill you in the future." Good job Barry. This has to be the most stupid reason for a breakup on TV.

The rest of the episode was pretty good. I hope Barry have finally learned his lesson and become the hero we can root for, and he can start that by getting back with iris as quickly as possible.

And it didn't escape me that savitar told Jessi that he have already lived all this, hmmm. 

[Bats27]

I'm getting sick of the show's having female characters be undercut because "they need protecting" or "it's for their own good. It's happened WAY too much on these shows. Heck it's what really annoys me about how they use Caitlin.

OF COURSE the only full-time female member of Team Flash who his powers can't use them because "it might turn her evil." Its not like Cisco had an evil AU counterpart, yet no one brings that up anymore. It's not like Barry, Wally, and Cisco getting powers has in no way played them up as potentially going bad.

OF COURSE it's just Caitlin (face-palm).

Also does anyone remember that Jessie is supposed to be a child genius, because this sure as heck doesn't.

Edited March 15, 2017 by Bats27

[srpturtle80]

Snart. <3. My love for Wentworth Miller knows no bounds. And that's the only good thing I have to say about this episode! 

[waving feather]

14 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

Speed force Eddie to Barry - You suck.

Speed force Ronnie to Barry - You suck.

Speed force Snart to Barry - You suck.

Barry to himself - I suck.

For the love of god, I think we get the point - can we move on? 

Yeah, I am DONE with Barry Allen man-angst and the sad guilty faces. This is not the show I signed up for. Barry Allen used to be enjoyable. Now he's another Oliver Queen, but with even less humor! My goodness.

14 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I wonder if this was a panacea to those that watch and hate Barry/think he sucks? Since apparently he "gets away with everything."

I wish Barry was self-aware enough to realize it himself and fix it LONG before he needed ghosts of speed-force to spell it out in neon colors for him. The root cause of why Barry keeps making terrible decisions is because he has warped thinking. He is always making the emotional decision. Even taking a break from Iris to focus on saving her is still an emotional decision. There is no middle-ground or right balance with him.

Also, gross how they were all dismissive of Jesse. She had more patience with those men than I would have had.

Edited March 15, 2017 by waving feather

[cambridgeguy]

3 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I didn't even think that real Jay=Savitar was a possibility before I came here. I would like to think golden age Flash -- smiled at Speed Force Snart's dig -- is unequivocally good and trustworthy. Then again, it was Jay who knew how/when to pull Barry from his original vision of IrisMurder. 

The problem with Jay = evil speedster is that they JUST did this last season.  The only difference is that Hunter was evil before he got his powers while Jay would be a genuinely good guy who was driven nuts in the speed force.

Jesse said that Earth-3 needed a Flash - what about Earth-2?  Even if he was pretending they had one for a while, and that guy is gone.  Also, why are they acting like living on another earth is such a big impediment?  Apparently traveling between them is a lot easier and faster than dealing with rush hour traffic in LA.

[waving feather]

7 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

Also, why are they acting like living on another earth is such a big impediment?  Apparently traveling between them is a lot easier and faster than dealing with rush hour traffic in LA.

LOL, for real. All they need is a Cisco to beam them to places. If I were Cisco, I would start charging per trip, for every trip that is not a life-or-death matter. ;-)

[Bats27]

Heck Cisco can apparently just whip up a portable "travel between parallel Earth's" device to give to Supergirl no problem.

[benteen]

7 hours ago, Jediknight said:

Come on show, Ronnie isn't dead because of Barry.  The singularity that Ronnie died trying to stop was because Eddie killed himself.  Barry had nothing to do with that, Eddie's death set off everything.

Barry was the one who triggered the events when he decided to travel back in time in the first place to save his mother, despite learning that his actions could trigger an event that could destroy the world.  But Ronnie and the others made the choice to enable him like they always do so they are not innocent here either.

Quote

Barry loves Iris deeply and has for a long time, and wanted to marry her. So why would the writers put in his mouth the thought that he wanted to marry her only in some strange effort to keep her safe? 

Looks like the writers are doing what they do with Arrow.  Writing their characters to fit their scripts and not writing their scripts to fit their characters.

[bmoore4026]

Barry, do find it ironic that you keep fucking up your father's life?  Granted, this Jay Garrick wasn't your Daddy Flash, but he is the alternate Earth version of your father.

And would it have killed you to show at least some emotion while breaking up with Iris?  I'm she was able to muster some tears and seemed very hurt by this.

I'm beginning to think Grant Gustin needs some more acting lessons.