S21.E10: Week 10/S21.E11: The Women Tell All

[vendredi3]

3 minutes ago, yorklee2 said:

And on a different note, I have been wanting to ask this for a long time, could you please explain to me what YMMV means?

YMMV = Your Mileage May Vary (meaning your perspective might be slightly different)

Edited March 8, 2017 by vendredi3

[yorklee2]

1 minute ago, vendredi3 said:

YMMV = Your Mileage May Vary

Thanks vendredi3!

[hyacinth]

Haha, never knew what YMMV meant either, but here goes!  

YMMV, but if you drank enough wine while watching the show, you wouldn't have noticed or cared whether Nick and Liz understood each other.  

Edited March 8, 2017 by hyacinth

[JenE4]

Gang, I think we'll find out whether Liz was There for the Right Reasons or whether the fame-whore shaming was deserved depending on whether or not she shows up in Paradise. Otherwise, this topic seems to be getting a bit heated over a silly TV show. Unless, Liz/Nick, is that you?? Can we get back to the fluff? Has anyone tried to recreate Raquel's famous cheese pasta recipe?

[yorklee2]

30 minutes ago, hyacinth said:

Haha, never knew what YMMV meant either, but here goes!  

YMMV, but if you drank enough wine while watching the show, you wouldn't have noticed or cared whether Nick and Liz understood each other.  

You may be right but MMDV (my mileage does vary). To each his own.

[truthaboutluv]

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I think the editing is making that more than it is. I think I read something about Vanessa apparently having lived in Vancouver at some point while her family's in Montreal, so obviously she wasn't having family dinners every single week.

I think I read she also lived in Toronto for a few years. 

[Shades of Scarlet]

Wow.  Great thread, fantastic comments. 

In general I was prepared to like this season because while I found Nick tiresome on Andi the Dorfster's season (aloof dude who blows off all the other guys for drama) and worse on Kaitlyn's season (bizarre fifth-inning interloper imported by production to jazz up an awful male cast and a terrible lead), like many I found him pleasant, reasonable and witty on BIP. 

However, this season was a dumpster fire.  The female cast was average at best compared to Higgins' and Soul-less' seasons and Nick's intriguing taste plus some producer intervention eliminated many interesting people early while Nick clearly chose Vanessa almost instantly.  To the extent he had any input in who was eliminated, he didn't care because he had already bonded with his Italian, French Canadian, Joykillian soulmate.  It reminds me of Prince Farming's season, right down to a suspenseless finale now in the offing featuring the obvious "winner" against a young, allegedly less sophisticated contender whom the producers loudly portray as virginal.  The not-so-inconsequential differences are that Whitney was a fun, classy, drama-light person who didn't take herself or the show too seriously and was an amazing catch four or five leagues above her sweaty suitor, and Raven is rather clearly not the sexual ingenue that Becca was.  Raven also has a personality with more than two settings, but that's another story.  

I've detested Vanessa since the first episode, and while I am often duped by editing, not this time, I suspect.  Her confrontations with Nick were always overscripted, she disappeared for long stretches while we watched the Corinne Show (which I for one found entertaining), she completely matched Nick's physical and non-physical type, and I thought it was clear that she was unpopular with the other women and formed no real relationships with them, likely because (a) she's ice cold - Lapland is an utterly perfect location for a proposal to her - and (b) everyone actually participating knew that they had zero chance against her and were thus possibly jealous and/or baffled.  The standing O (no, not that O, Raven) for Rachel by the WTA participants said it all given that it's now common knowledge that Rachel and Vanessa disliked each other.  

With no real suspense in the actual show, which was so bad that Fleiss et al. had to interrupt it by spoiling Rachel as the B'ette (I bet Vanessa loved that decision, tee hee), my only comment is that Vanessa either really needs her 400-strong Traditional Sundays Battalion and is deeply committed to her work with special needs adults, or she doesn't and isn't and will freely amble off to Los Angeles with her freshly captured mactor to resume her own abortive acting career.  Neither scenario will fly with our hero Nick and this relationship is incipiently DOA. If this season had been real, there were at least six or seven better realistic choices for Nick (including, yes, Corinne) that would have made more sense.  Even also-ran Raven was fun, cute, perky, drama-free and would have happily trailed around L.A. with her aspiring Hollywood star.  But I don't think that's going to happen. 

I thought WTA was a blast.  Taylor, you're a 23-YO rumored underwear model who couldn't counsel a school of well-meaning fish, and you were completely humiliated and intellectually overpowered by the combo of Corinne and Chris Harrison.  Bye.  Danielle L, you're too young and it's possible that Nick saw you in profile, which the show hid well but WTA did not.  Sorry to be shallow, but that wasn't her best angle.  Liz, you chased fame and were utterly exposed in doing so, which does not make you a feminist icon.  But if you were maid of honor to Jade (love her) and her Nebraska pal, you're probably a cool person.  Just stay away from The Bachelor and when you don't want to give the next Nick your number, which was the right call, stick with it.  Hailey (?) and Lacey, I am occasionally accused of having terrific recall and I have no idea who you are.  Danielle M, when you're highly, highly attractive, do not go out of your way to wear some bizarre contraption that incredibly enough, manages to be unflattering.  Jasmine, Dominique, Astrid: whatever.  Alexis, stay cool and fun.

Now that Corinne was no longer in her Producer Plant role, I thought she was more relaxed and quite funny without seeming forced.  She even came off as classy and gracious with Harrison.  Loved that she flatly refused to apologize to the ridiculous Taylor and she defended herself with an indifferent confidence I found refreshing.  Turns out she wasn't really a villain and ironically, she made far more sense for feckless Nick than any of the final 3.  And I can't blame her for eating the show when the outcome was predestined IMO and they had very little with which to work.

I hope Rachel has a good season with a better final result than psycho Josh, boring Shawn, or non-Aaron Rodgers.  Can't wait to see if Judge Lindsay makes an appearance.  I liked how down-to-earth she seemed about the experience.  

But in the department of missed opportunities, I think Kristina would have been a fascinating, all-time great Bachelorette.  Smart, really pretty, and has to have the most touching back story in the history of this franchise.  Blown call but I understand why Rachel got the gig.  Also a shame: Elizabeth from Dallas.  Articulate, elegant, and gorgeous.  Couldn't get past week two IIRC?  Says it all.  I would have loved to have seen more of Whitney the Amy Acker Clone too; she also impressed.  A final three of Kristina, Elizabeth and Whitney sure seems like it would have been much more interesting than what we got.  Alas.

 I hope next week's thread is another outstanding read.  There's no hope for the actual show and I don't understand how AFTR can be more than five minutes long.  

Edited March 8, 2017 by Shades of Scarlet

[ljenkins782]

On 3/6/2017 at 10:12 PM, Superpole2000 said:

Corinne is the embodiment of what I dislike about reality TV. She acts like a kid does when the kid knows they have an audience. Everything is a damn show, and it's tiring.

Same. The theatrical stomping off to get champagne, the hair tossing, all of it was just so grating. 

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I can't tell whose side these girls are on. First they were all yelling at Taylor. Now they're all yelling at Corrine. I forget who said it, but props to the girl who said, "Well, you're both condescending in your own ways."

I think they're all annoyed by Corinne, but couldn't really stand Taylor either, so it was a lose-lose. The only one who clearly picked a side (besides Josephine) was the show itself. I get the feeling that Taylor was not exactly a favorite with production either (or else the show was just so enamored of their Corinne storyline that she got used as a foil), because she did not come off well. Her edited intro for this episode was really embarrassing to watch. First, she's shown as completely overestimating her connection with Nick, kind of overselling herself in general with the constant bragging about her academic achievements, and finally, being the big loser in the showdown with Corinne. 

I can see why people don't feel warmly toward her, she does give off a condescending, bitchy vibe, but I started to feel sorry for her at some point. And Chris Harrison constantly pointing out that she was emotional and asking why, as if it wasn't abundantly clear, was borderline cruel. She just had to watch that very unflattering montage of her time on the show and then had 2 couches full of girls shouting personal critiques at her. I'm going to guess THAT is why she's emotional, Captain Obvious.

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You would think that being as smart as she thinks she is she would know not to use I in a prepositional phrase.  She did it all the time and it drove me crazy.

She also apparently doesn't know the meaning of the word "empathy" despite using it quite a few times on this show. "You don't have any empathy for all of the things you said.." Closest I can guess is that she meant "remorse" or something along those lines? 

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That girl Lacey should feel embarrassed . She's asking nick why he sent her home And was talking about another girl on their date when I guarantee he doesn't even remember who she is .... who is she ??? 

Seriously. She was cannon fodder from the word go, there is no way Nick was going to drum up an ounce of sincerity in responding to that one. Also, asking if he was "friend zoning" you? Um no, not even. Contrast Nick's response to her with his response to Alexis, who piped up that she was friend zoned and fine with it, it's clear that the first girl made no impression whatsoever.

Also, who the hell is "Elizabeth"? Was that girl on this show? She was super quick to pipe up and try to make some silly expression happen, but I honestly have zero recollection of her. If you got booted the first night, don't show up for the WTA, it's kind of desperate and no one is really looking for your input. 

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Rachel's cut brought tears to my eyes. I too thought she was so genuine in the moment @MsBlueJay. Just very subdued and heartbroken. Nothing fake about it whatsoever. She really seems like she could carry a season well. Loved her at WTA when she got so cracked up over the shark costume in the audience. Nothing stuffy about her. So warm and real. I just hope she comes out of the b'ette not too damaged. No lead has every came out of this show unscathed.

I loved that she stomped all over Chris Harrison's big moment of tooting the show's horn for finally having a black lead after 30-something seasons when she got distracted by the shark in the audience. 

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That talk between Nick and Vanessa about "traditional values" was really bizarre. Vanessa freely admitted she won't compromise on her Sunday family time. Then in the next breath (or was it a TH? I don't remember) she was talking about how people in relationships need to compromise. Huh?

Nick and Vanessa seem adamant about staying in their respective countries. That is never going to work. A compromise will have to be met if they plan on staying together for any significant length of time. Why not spend half the year in Canada and the other half in the US? Or maybe spend three-fourths of the year in Canada and the summer months in the US? I dunno. If you truly love someone, you'll be willing to compromise on major issues such as this. 

 

If they truly haven't given any thought something as basic as what country they will live in until now...I have no idea how they think this is going to work out long term. I mean, of course, most of these Bachelor things don't work out, so it's not like I expect these 2 to make it if she's F1, but there's not even any suspense. Especially since he's signed on to DWTS. 

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It always makes me uncomfortable when, during the WTA (or MTA), the lead is asked why they let someone go--as if they can tell the real reason without coming off like an ***. I mean, what was Nick supposed to say to Danielle when she muttered how confused she was when he cut her loose, mentioning that zinger that she loves to throw around: "You said that I'm the one you could see yourself getting engaged to?" Yes, Danielle--because men always know within two nanoseconds that they want to get married to someone. What he really meant by that not-very-well-thought-out comment was, "Wow, she's hot! Noiiiiice!!!" 

I guess Danielle hasn't gone out of her way to read any of Nick's post-show press. IIRC, she's one that he calls out by name as someone he really couldn't sustain a conversation with. 

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Which I appreciate because like Nick himself said once, when he was criticizing Amanda for how she talked about her ex-husband on Ben's season, these people did not sign up for a reality show. So it's not fair to drag them into it where millions of people who know nothing about them are speculating and passing judgments on their character. That's not fair.

In Raven's case, given that her ex cheated on her, I'm sure her reason for dragging him into the conversation in an unflattering way was at least partly motivated by revenge. 

As for that supremely cheesy montage, I definitely don't take that as confirmation that they actually had sex or that any fireworks happened at all, just the show trying to complete a story they decided to run with. 

Also, it finally cemented what's started to bug me about Raven, when I'd previously really liked her. I feel like she's just a little too on board with the show's machinations and it makes me think she's going be a franchise lifer, who pops up on every show even tangentially related to Bachelor. 

[Stinamaia]

18 hours ago, catrice2 said:

All I can say  (again) is that whomever wins, loses.   I cannot understand the interest in Nick.  He comes across as insecure and emotional.  I'll bet most of the women got home and realized their "feelings" were a result of being locked up with other women for a period of time with no other men.  I can't believe that any of them have deep, long term feelings for Nick, in fact I think most of them acknowledged the exposure and free trips were way more exciting.  I know this show does not show you everything about a person, but I cannot imagine that he is a lot different than what has been shown.  

I saw snippets of Rachel's date and then had to watch Supergirl on DVD.   I have a certain type and I tried with both Ben and Nick but they both came off as boyish and not manly.  I was more disappointed in Nick because he was older, I expected more maturity. 

There is something wrong with me because although I respect her story, I have no interest in Kristina.   I am really, really trying to understand the addiction of this show,  This board is WAY more interesting

Now I'm interested.  Which bachelors have you thought were manly? 

[yorklee2]

38 minutes ago, Shades of Scarlet said:

Wow.  Great thread, fantastic comments. 

So was yours Shades of Scarlet. Loved it.

[TheFinalRose]

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And then much like Ben who put his whatever he had with Tenley "on hold" (dumbest comment ever - and by the way, this thing included Tenley coming to Colorado to hang out with Ben for a whole week) 

What? I never heard about Tenley and Ben! Poor Tenley, that girl is constantly getting dumped.  I still don't believe that Ben and Miss "Sparkle in her Eye" are going to make it to the altar, so hopefully Tenley will hang in there, as she seems to have unending patience and anyone who becomes a Lifer with "unloveable" Ben is going to need that. 

 

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I guess Danielle hasn't gone out of her way to read any of Nick's post-show press.

You are assuming that Danielle actually, you know, reads things. That might have been her problem.

 

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If you got booted the first night, don't show up for the WTA, it's kind of desperate and no one is really looking for your input. 

Amen. Or if you show up, don't speak. No one cares. Which is why I wonder how Lacey's inane questions were even included in the final cut of the show.

[Shades of Scarlet]

6 minutes ago, yorklee2 said:

So was yours Shades of Scarlet. Loved it.

Aw, thanks, yorklee2!  A bit late but I had a lot to say, darn it!  :)

[catrice2]

20 minutes ago, Stinamaia said:

Now I'm interested.  Which bachelors have you thought were manly? 

I don't watch the show .Last season and this season I tried and got  through maybe two or three episodes of Ben in part and I've seen portions of Nick . I think I last yearI looked at the pictures from previous seasons and I did not see anyone that I'd be interested in. Just based on the comments from others on this board I doubt that I would have been interested in their personalities.

[ljenkins782]

9 minutes ago, TheFinalRose said:

What? I never heard about Tenley and Ben! Poor Tenley, that girl is constantly getting dumped.  I still don't believe that Ben and Miss "Sparkle in her Eye" are going to make it to the altar, so hopefully Tenley will hang in there, as she seems to have unending patience and anyone who becomes a Lifer with "unloveable" Ben is going to need that. 

 

You are assuming that Danielle actually, you know, reads things. That might have been her problem.

 

Amen. Or if you show up, don't speak. No one cares. Which is why I wonder how Lacey's inane questions were even included in the final cut of the show.

I assume they were only included because Alexis jumped into the conversation and Nick responded warmly to her. I think if it had just been Lacey, it would have hit the cutting room floor. Was that girl who embarrassed herself by confronting Nick over the fact that he didn't notice that she was "in her head" (when in reality, he basically hadn't noticed her at all up to that point) at the WTA? 

I never heard about Ben and Tenley either! So they had something going and he put it on hold to go be the Bachelor? Yeah, I guess that's a sign that you're not
The One, lol. 

[truthaboutluv]

4 minutes ago, TheFinalRose said:

What? I never heard about Tenley and Ben! Poor Tenley, that girl is constantly getting dumped.

Oh there was a whole story in US Weekly about it before his season premiered and it was more or less confirmed by both him and Tenley. Of course Tenley was as kind and sweet as ever about him. But yeah you probably heard about it but forgot because the show and many viewers bought into the perfect/saint Ben narrative. So everyone just conveniently forgets that ever happened. 

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If you got booted the first night, don't show up for the WTA, it's kind of desperate and no one is really looking for your input. 

I read that none of the women booted the first night were there. Well actually some were but they were in the audience and not with the other women. 

[TheFinalRose]

I would love to see Tenley as the Bachelorette. That girl needs a Prince Charming who is head over heels for her.

[yorklee2]

5 minutes ago, ljenkins782 said:

Was that girl who embarrassed herself by confronting Nick over the fact that he didn't notice that she was "in her head" (when in reality, he basically hadn't noticed her at all up to that point) at the WTA? 

Yeah I think you're talking about Dominique and yes she was there and of course asked a question. I think she went out at like 3rd or at the most 4th episode.

[sasha206]

On 3/7/2017 at 1:06 PM, Rubyslippahz said:

Danielle M really sexed it up in her WTA outfit.   She came across as so wan and retiring during the actual season.   Based on Insta, Danielle M seems to be just about the only woman who is friends with Vanessa.

Danielle L, sorry she is the WORST.  Her sobbing and inability to "understand" how Nick could possibly lose interest in her after spending time with her just created Exhibit Z in how boring and clueless she was.  I give Nick props for dismissing her when he did, because other guys would have taken her much further in the "journey" despite her utter banality.

Danielle L also has the worst vocal fry I've ever heard.  I can't even imagine listening to that for more than 5 minutes much less a lifetime.

[yorklee2]

12 minutes ago, yorklee2 said:

 

 

21 minutes ago, Wandering Snark said:

Already covered, sorry.

It's alright WANDERING SNARK. Happens to the best of us. I know I've been guilty of it for sure.

Edited March 8, 2017 by yorklee2

[backformore]

1 hour ago, ljenkins782 said:

I can see why people don't feel warmly toward her, she does give off a condescending, bitchy vibe, but I started to feel sorry for her at some point. And Chris Harrison constantly pointing out that she was emotional and asking why, as if it wasn't abundantly clear, was borderline cruel. She just had to watch that very unflattering montage of her time on the show and then had 2 couches full of girls shouting personal critiques at her. I'm going to guess THAT is why she's emotional, Captain Obvious.

(About Taylor)   Yeah, I agree.   She was in the hot seat, and every time she said something,  Corrine, Josephine, and a few others would shout over her.  When Corrine was in the hot seat, she demanded that people be quiet and let her talk.    That was weird.  But Chris H asking Taylor more than once to explain WHY she was getting upset?  Really?  A group of people yell at her, and she's supposed to talk about WHY it makes her emotional!  

I guess I see Taylor as someone who finished grad school about a minute before the show started, and was still on that "I'm a counselor"  high.   But having that credential does NOT mean you're supposed to lord it over other people in a way that makes them feel insecure.  It's kind of - you're a counselor when someone is paying for your guidance.  In all other contexts, you're not counseling anyone, you're just a regular person.   

That said - she was 100% correct in her opinion about Corrine.  but so what?  Better to keep it to yourself.  Though I wonder if she was set up by production to weigh in on the other women over the course of the show. 

[yorklee2]

29 minutes ago, backformore said:

Though I wonder if she was set up by production to weigh in on the other women over the course of the show. 

With this show anything's possible. In fact I would say it's more likely probable. They would do anything to create drama.

[uoflfan]

On 3/7/2017 at 2:59 AM, Rubyslippahz said:

 

So is the consensus that Nick did "fiancé things" with all of the final 3?

 

I do not believe Nick and Rachel had sex.  She was still wearing her sweater in the "morning after" wake up.  I have a friend who knows one of the producers.  She told me that Nick did not have sex with Raven or Rachel, only with Vanessa.  I can believe that.

[StatisticalOutlier]

On 3/6/2017 at 9:08 PM, JenE4 said:

People, we've officially taken this anti-shaming shaming too far! Why is it only okay to shame someone for shaming someone else? For shame, you anti-shaming shamer!

I'll confess that I don't really understand the whole "shaming" movement, but every once in a while I'll think I have a little grasp on it, and then I hear something like Taylor complaining that she's being mental-health-counselor-shamed, and I'm back to not understanding it at all.

 

On 3/7/2017 at 1:38 AM, jumper sage said:

God help me but I am not being mean but Josephine looked like a drag queen.  On the boat to Hades now...........................

She looked like Bette Davis in What Ever Happened to Baby Jane?

 

On 3/6/2017 at 9:19 PM, Ms Blue Jay said:

 I was never a fan of Vanessa's but she was a 10 in that swimsuit.  I am very jealous.

If you're talking about the blue one in the ice bath dip, I agree.  I think she should win something for appearing on this show in something other than a bikini.

[TheFinalRose]

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I have a friend who knows one of the producers.  

How convenient! What else can your friend tell us, uofIfan? (and is it u of I, as in champaign/urbana, or u of l as in Louisiana or somewhere else?)

[hnygrl]

21 hours ago, violet and green said:

(Nick to my mind does want a woman to dominate him, but also coddle him. God bless! I hope he does find someone to take him in hand and snip off those horrible little curls from that ridiculous poodle pompadour he's currently sporting, and shave off that dreadful trendy beard, also, while she's knocking him into line.)

I'm reminded of a friend I "grew up" with (as in went through our stupidity-ladened late teens and twenties and thirties with), He was a smart, smart man, but ridiculous when it came to women. He honestly reminds me of Nick. What cured him? The right woman. She's seriously strong, independent, loves him to death, and is not afraid to tell him no and make him listen.

Today? He's a very successful award winning radio personality and a PhD. He did all that AFTER he married her. 

I'think you're right. Nick just needs the right combination of strong and soft to "make him act right" cause he ain't doin' it on his own.

[ljenkins782]

49 minutes ago, uoflfan said:

I do not believe Nick and Rachel had sex.  She was still wearing her sweater in the "morning after" wake up.  I have a friend who knows one of the producers.  She told me that Nick did not have sex with Raven or Rachel, only with Vanessa.  I can believe that.

Ha, but will Vanessa believe it? Especially given Raven's musical montage. If this is true, I think production set Nick up for some needless drama down the road if he ends up with Vanessa. 

[truthaboutluv]

I couldn't say one way or the other with Nick and Rachel as I didn't think her wearing her onesie in the morning scene proved  anything because it was more than possible she simply put it on before the cameras were let back in. But honestly, that corny morning after dance sequence nonsense with Raven made me feel like it was more likely nothing happened because it's clear the producers were trying so hard to make viewers think it did. 

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Ha, but will Vanessa believe it? Especially given Raven's musical montage. If this is true, I think production set Nick up for some needless drama down the road if he ends up with Vanessa. 

Considering how publicly she put her lack of orgasm out there, I feel fairly certain Raven will be asked directly by some media outlet, after the season finale, if she and Nick had sex. So I'm sure we'll know for sure soon enough.

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I think she should win something for appearing on this show in something other than a bikini.

Don't be too impressed, lol. I'm pretty sure that's the suits that were provided by the place they were at. I saw a picture on Instagram of some of the producers who decided to do the ice plunge as well, it was two guys and a woman and they were all wearing suits similar to what Nick and Vanessa were wearing, right down to the color.

Edited March 8, 2017 by truthaboutluv

[sasha206]

On 3/7/2017 at 0:24 AM, Falafel said:

My favorite sentence uttered in the whole thing: "Everyone knows Liz as someone who slept with Nick but I know Liz as someone who builds wells at orphanages."

And of course, Liz honey, we wouldn't know you slept with Nick if you didn't decide that being a famewhore was more important to you than being known as someone who builds wells at orphanages.  She made the choice of being on a national TV show to tell the world she had a one night stand at a wedding.   Seemingly, if she was *really* interested in being with Nick, she'd have personal friends who could've reached out to him to let him know that despite not appearing interested the next day, she is.  Instead, in order for her to become famous, she had to tell the producers that she slept with Nick so they'd let her on.

So if she's being slut shamed instead of being known as a builder of welds and a builder upper of women, that's on her.

[uoflfan]

26 minutes ago, TheFinalRose said:

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I have a friend who knows one of the producers.  

How convenient! What else can your friend tell us, uofIfan? (and is it u of I, as in champaign/urbana, or u of l as in Louisiana or somewhere else?)

That's the only question I wanted answered because I was pretty certain Rachel didn't have sex with him.  

Did anyone else think Nick would have considerable shrinkage after the cold water dips and might not be able to get it up for Vanessa?

[catrice2]

3 hours ago, Shades of Scarlet said:

Wow.  Great thread, fantastic comments. 

In general I was prepared to like this season because while I found Nick tiresome on Andi the Dorfster's season (aloof dude who blows off all the other guys for drama) and worse on Kaitlyn's season (bizarre fifth-inning interloper imported by production to jazz up an awful male cast and a terrible lead), like many I found him pleasant, reasonable and witty on BIP. 

However, this season was a dumpster fire.  The female cast was average at best compared to Higgins' and Soul-less' seasons and Nick's intriguing taste plus some producer intervention eliminated many interesting people early while Nick clearly chose Vanessa almost instantly.  To the extent he had any input in who was eliminated, he didn't care because he had already bonded with his Italian, French Canadian, Joykillian soulmate.  It reminds me of Prince Farming's season, right down to a suspenseless finale now in the offing featuring the obvious "winner" against a young, allegedly less sophisticated contender whom the producers loudly portray as virginal.  The not-so-inconsequential differences are that Whitney was a fun, classy, drama-light person who didn't take herself or the show too seriously and was an amazing catch four or five leagues above her sweaty suitor, and Raven is rather clearly not the sexual ingenue that Becca was.  Raven also has a personality with more than two settings, but that's another story.  

I've detested Vanessa since the first episode, and while I am often duped by editing, not this time, I suspect.  Her confrontations with Nick were always overscripted, she disappeared for long stretches while we watched the Corinne Show (which I for one found entertaining), she completely matched Nick's physical and non-physical type, and I thought it was clear that she was unpopular with the other women and formed no real relationships with them, likely because (a) she's ice cold - Lapland is an utterly perfect location for a proposal to her - and (b) everyone actually participating knew that they had zero chance against her and were thus possibly jealous and/or baffled.  The standing O (no, not that O, Raven) for Rachel by the WTA participants said it all given that it's now common knowledge that Rachel and Vanessa disliked each other.  

With no real suspense in the actual show, which was so bad that Fleiss et al. had to interrupt it by spoiling Rachel as the B'ette (I bet Vanessa loved that decision, tee hee), my only comment is that Vanessa either really needs her 400-strong Traditional Sundays Battalion and is deeply committed to her work with special needs adults, or she doesn't and isn't and will freely amble off to Los Angeles with her freshly captured mactor to resume her own abortive acting career.  Neither scenario will fly with our hero Nick and this relationship is incipiently DOA. If this season had been real, there were at least six or seven better realistic choices for Nick (including, yes, Corinne) that would have made more sense.  Even also-ran Raven was fun, cute, perky, drama-free and would have happily trailed around L.A. with her aspiring Hollywood star.  But I don't think that's going to happen. 

I thought WTA was a blast.  Taylor, you're a 23-YO rumored underwear model who couldn't counsel a school of well-meaning fish, and you were completely humiliated and intellectually overpowered by the combo of Corinne and Chris Harrison.  Bye.  Danielle L, you're too young and it's possible that Nick saw you in profile, which the show hid well but WTA did not.  Sorry to be shallow, but that wasn't her best angle.  Liz, you chased fame and were utterly exposed in doing so, which does not make you a feminist icon.  But if you were maid of honor to Jade (love her) and her Nebraska pal, you're probably a cool person.  Just stay away from The Bachelor and when you don't want to give the next Nick your number, which was the right call, stick with it.  Hailey (?) and Lacey, I am occasionally accused of having terrific recall and I have no idea who you are.  Danielle M, when you're highly, highly attractive, do not go out of your way to wear some bizarre contraption that incredibly enough, manages to be unflattering.  Jasmine, Dominique, Astrid: whatever.  Alexis, stay cool and fun.

Now that Corinne was no longer in her Producer Plant role, I thought she was more relaxed and quite funny without seeming forced.  She even came off as classy and gracious with Harrison.  Loved that she flatly refused to apologize to the ridiculous Taylor and she defended herself with an indifferent confidence I found refreshing.  Turns out she wasn't really a villain and ironically, she made far more sense for feckless Nick than any of the final 3.  And I can't blame her for eating the show when the outcome was predestined IMO and they had very little with which to work.

I hope Rachel has a good season with a better final result than psycho Josh, boring Shawn, or non-Aaron Rodgers.  Can't wait to see if Judge Lindsay makes an appearance.  I liked how down-to-earth she seemed about the experience.  

But in the department of missed opportunities, I think Kristina would have been a fascinating, all-time great Bachelorette.  Smart, really pretty, and has to have the most touching back story in the history of this franchise.  Blown call but I understand why Rachel got the gig.  Also a shame: Elizabeth from Dallas.  Articulate, elegant, and gorgeous.  Couldn't get past week two IIRC?  Says it all.  I would have loved to have seen more of Whitney the Amy Acker Clone too; she also impressed.  A final three of Kristina, Elizabeth and Whitney sure seems like it would have been much more interesting than what we got.  Alas.

 I hope next week's thread is another outstanding read.  There's no hope for the actual show and I don't understand how AFTR can be more than five minutes long.  

A lot of truth in what you said, but honestly, what about Kristina made her so awesome?  I don't remember one interesting CURRENT thing that she said about her life that made me want more.  I typically find accents intriguing, but not hers.   I found her aloof, and bland...but I will confess I missed her date so maybe something else came through, although I heard it was spent talking about her past.  Nick must have felt the same as I did because he kept baby Corinne over her. 

People connect to different things and I respect that, but what makes Kristina's story more "heartbreaking" than Jubilee? Last year I heard a  similar story of a girl who lost her ENTIRE family (doesn't Kristina still have a sister and knew her mother?) and was taken from a country in disaster and political ruin to live in another country.  Not only that, but she was adopted by people of a different race....and we can talk about all being the same, but I would bet that was a huge culture shock on top of the different country living with people very different from her....food, etc.  I get that Jubilee's edit was annoying, whiny and insecure, but she is serving her country.  So I don't get all of this "strong woman" stuff about Kristina.  She had a rough beginning and was adopted and seems ok.  People in this country go hungry every day....I see many children who do....and who work to support their families, etc.  There are more tragic stories than hers, and some of the women on this show probably have had them but did not choose to share or get the opportunity.

 I just don't get this movement to either demonize some of these women or nominate them for sainthood.   Building orphanages or volunteering in a foreign country doesn't change the fact that you put yourself out there on national television as someone having a one night stand and not knowing if a man will remember you.  Then you want to complain about being judged?   Spare me speeches from Corrinne, Taylor or Liz.  I get editing is powerful, but some of it they put out there.   Of course there are many sides to them and I know they are more than this show, but just coming on here and knowing you live in AMERICA then you kind of know how you will be perceived by some.  It would seem to me you would be ok with that because you knew the deal when you applied....especially if you've ever watched the show.   Just as being a neo natal nurse, a Doula , lawyer or a Special Education teacher means that you are a great person who is not whiny, insecure or a fame seeker. 

I personally don't feel my definition of a "strong woman" would be on this show.  Those people know themselves and their worth, so they would not be content to be a show where ONE man gets to judge their worthiness by how attractive they are or how much they run after him in a bevy of 20 other women.  

I don't think this show knows how to find fascinating people, or they are too smart to apply.  Maybe they did in earlier seasons before Instagram Shilling, etc. 

[sasha206]

6 minutes ago, uoflfan said:

That's the only question I wanted answered because I was pretty certain Rachel didn't have sex with him.  

Did anyone else think Nick would have considerable shrinkage after the cold water dips and might not be able to get it up for Vanessa?

I seriously hate the whole concept of the "Bachelor Suite."  The only purpose is to create the "did they fuck or not" question.  And if they do fuck, the girl is the one who gets looked down on.  

But on the other hand, if you want to debase yourself that much to be on this show so you can be famous, they deserve to be looked down on!

[catrice2]

2 hours ago, backformore said:

(About Taylor)   Yeah, I agree.   She was in the hot seat, and every time she said something,  Corrine, Josephine, and a few others would shout over her.  When Corrine was in the hot seat, she demanded that people be quiet and let her talk.    That was weird.  But Chris H asking Taylor more than once to explain WHY she was getting upset?  Really?  A group of people yell at her, and she's supposed to talk about WHY it makes her emotional!  

I guess I see Taylor as someone who finished grad school about a minute before the show started, and was still on that "I'm a counselor"  high.   But having that credential does NOT mean you're supposed to lord it over other people in a way that makes them feel insecure.  It's kind of - you're a counselor when someone is paying for your guidance.  In all other contexts, you're not counseling anyone, you're just a regular person.   

That said - she was 100% correct in her opinion about Corrine.  but so what?  Better to keep it to yourself.  Though I wonder if she was set up by production to weigh in on the other women over the course of the show. 

Not to mention silly people do things like send death threats,etc. to these girls. I bet she has been upset since her exit aired. But no, this show doesn't care what their editing does to people's lives.....they must have the drama. 

[catrice2]

7 hours ago, DEL901 said:

Regarding Nanny-gate, Corrine multiple times said that she called Raquel her nanny because she didn't want to disrespect her by calling her a cleaner (or something - I'm paraphrasing here.)

a) there's nothing unsavory to be embarrassed about being a cleaner (it's honest labour) b) Corrine kept saying "I didn't want to call her a xxx" thereby calling her that multiple times and making it clear she thought the job title was demeaning and c) why not just call her a housekeeper?

Also, saying she moved down from New Jersey when her mom was sick contradicts what she said before about Raquel being a 2nd mom.

I didn't hear this, but it is total bs.   My grandmother was a maid, back when they said maid, and I was never ashamed of it.  She was VERY close with the family she worked for for over 30 years.   She could have called her a friend of the family, or a trusted family employee?  She is just trying to justify lying.  It was not just that she said it, it was how she said it. She didn't say it in a way of someone searching for another word to describe someone. She could have said, she's our housekeeper, but she is so much more, etc. 

[jade.black]

31 minutes ago, catrice2 said:

A lot of truth in what you said, but honestly, what about Kristina made her so awesome?  I don't remember one interesting CURRENT thing that she said about her life that made me want more.

Personally, I thought Kristina came off as really intriguing a few times. One was when she called Corinne out on an early group date when Corinne was feeding her some excuse for her behavior. Kristina looked her dead in the eye and told her, "I'm not stupid." She also has these moments in the background where she seems like a lot of fun (like celebrating after catching the cheese in her mouth with Raven). It doesn't hurt that she is (in my opinion) one of the most gorgeous contestants who has been on the show and seems mature and intelligent, much moreso than the majority of contestants which is impressive when you consider she's only 24. Those one-on-one dates rarely focus on anything interesting about the contestants unless they have a sob story, and her tragic past isn't actually the reason I find her appealing, although the fact that she seems as emotionally strong and full of life as she does considering what she's been through is part of it. 

ETA: Oh, and the fact that she didn't lead with her background story. She made Nick wait a few dates then told him she had more to tell him but he'd have to invite her on a one-on-one to find out. I liked that.

Edited March 8, 2017 by jade.black

[StatisticalOutlier]

24 minutes ago, truthaboutluv said:

Quote

I think she should win something for appearing on this show in something other than a bikini.

Don't be too impressed, lol. I'm pretty sure that's the suits that were provided by the place they were at. I saw a picture on Instagram of some of the producers who decided to do the ice plunge as well, it was two guys and a woman and they were all wearing suits similar to what Nick and Vanessa were wearing, right down to the color.

As someone pointed about above, there wasn't any nipple show-through, so I figured they had some neoprene in them and were probably provided by the ice place.  Hmm...I wonder if the men's version has neoprene padding, like a dance belt, to make up for the cold-water effects.

But the one who at The Women Tell All show wore the white jumpsuit with the V down to her navel--I could see her saying, "No way., I'm wearing my bikini."  It's a shame, because Vanessa proved it's possible to look sexy in a one-piece bathing suit--something that seems to be unfathomable among young women, and certainly the women on this show.

[kalibean]

On 3/7/2017 at 1:54 PM, RHJunkie said:

According to Jasmine and Alexis, they said they weren't around for any of that drama and all of the women got along though all the girls had their own closer friendships among the group outside of the Corinne/Taylor issue. Both said that they thought was Vanessa was cool and Alexis said that she liked Vanessa from jump because she was the first girl of the bunch that took her costume in stride and having fun with her over it.  What struck me is that Jasmine was on that group date and she claims that she was gone so I'm wondering if Jasmine was not in the area at the time of this tantrum or if there was actually something else that happened after that incident that both girls heard about it but weren't around to witness. Truthfully, the volleyball incident doesn't seem like such a big deal if it was really about Nick allowing a losing team to continue on with the date - it's not like he changed the rules from a one one one to a 6 woman date. Bachelors have done this before. And it also seems like a non-issue after the fact because whatever 'tantrum' Vanessa threw after being frustrated with losing and losing time with Nick, it seems like Rachel and possibly others threw their own tantrums about something or the other that happened in which case, it kind of cancelled each other out. It seems Raven was the only one that may have kept her cool on that group date.

Jasmine was probably passed out and napping somewhere, Corrine style. Because Miss J was druuuuuuunk as could be that episode. Lol. 

22 hours ago, call me ishmael said:

Totally agree.  I realize this is the bachelor that hotbed of advanced gender thinking but I'm pretty sure that special education teachers get certified and it isn't clear to me how easily that can be moved across national lines.  On the other hand, digital business person with some some idea can happen almost anywhere.  So after he gets eliminated from DWTS he should move to Canada.  If his business fails he can always join Jillian on Love it or List it.

This would please me so much. I love that show! 

22 hours ago, violet and green said:

(Nick to my mind does want a woman to dominate him, but also coddle him. God bless! I hope he does find someone to take him in hand and snip off those horrible little curls from that ridiculous poodle pompadour he's currently sporting, and shave off that dreadful trendy beard, also, while she's knocking him into line.)

Good heavens, this is a weird BDSM fanfic just waiting to happen. Thanks for the mental image of Nick all trussed up and whipped and then being cuddled during after care. I like Nick just fine, but no thank you. 

[call me ishmael]

4 hours ago, TheFinalRose said:

I would love to see Tenley as the Bachelorette. That girl needs a Prince Charming who is head over heels for her.

I thought Tenley was great at first but after the Bachelor, BIP and Bachelor Pad not so much...I don't think it is prince charming she needs but a break from reality tv.

[peachmangosteen]

5 hours ago, JenE4 said:

Has anyone tried to recreate Raquel's famous cheese pasta recipe?

I tried it based on that recipe that was in US Weekly. It was OK lol.

5 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

I think I read she also lived in Toronto for a few years. 

Oh, maybe that's what it was. In any case, it pretty much proves Vanessa's not as strict on that 'weekly family dinner' thing as the show is making her out to be.

[KenyaJ]

.

Edited March 9, 2017 by KenyaJ

[zoltana]

On 3/7/2017 at 10:15 AM, dleighg said:

anyone know what Vanessa's "wrap" was made of?

It's similar to this one:  https://www.amazon.com/Lavish-Home-Luxury-Striped-Blanket/dp/B00QX0TJN0

[Wandering Snark]

3 hours ago, jade.black said:

It doesn't hurt that she is (in my opinion) one of the most gorgeous contestants who has been on the show and seems mature and intelligent, much moreso than the majority of contestants which is impressive when you consider she's only 24.

Yes this and like you added, not letting the backstory overpower her (in life and on the show) was quite amazing. I never saw her as aloof, she always seemed 'plugged in' to the rest of the girls when they were about. She took her exit well as well, Nick knew what was coming show-wise and didn't want her to have to be involved/invested in it when he wasn't 100% percent on her for reasons untold. I think she's probably too grounded to lead the show but would certainly be deserving as anyone of the role.

3 hours ago, catrice2 said:

She had a rough beginning and was adopted and seems ok.

Well she lived in the orphanage from early childhood til she was a teen iirc so she effectively had to leave two families to come here, the kids she grew up with and her sister, when adopted. And her sister, she said, was still back in Russia. She once ate lipstick because she was so hungry as a little girl. It was more than a 'rough beginning' she's been through hell and come out the other side seemingly well-adjusted.

Edited March 9, 2017 by Wandering Snark

[slowpoked]

4 hours ago, uoflfan said:

I do not believe Nick and Rachel had sex.  She was still wearing her sweater in the "morning after" wake up.  I have a friend who knows one of the producers.  She told me that Nick did not have sex with Raven or Rachel, only with Vanessa.  I can believe that.

I can believe that. Details are hazy now, but wasn't it only Vanessa who was shown lying on the bed (possibly) without her top on?

[catrice2]

12 minutes ago, Wandering Snark said:

Yes this and like you added, not letting the backstory overpower her (in life and on the show) was quite amazing. I never saw her as aloof, she always seemed 'plugged in' to the rest of the girls when they were about. She took her exit well as well, Nick knew what was coming show-wise and didn't want her to have to be involved/invested in it when he wasn't 100% percent on her for reasons untold. I think she's probably too grounded to lead the show but would certainly be deserving as anyone of the role.

Well she lived in the orphanage from early childhood til she was a teen iirc so she effectively had to leave two families to come here, the kids she grew up with and her sister, when adopted. And her sister, she said, was still back in Russia. She once ate lipstick because she was so hungry as a little girl. It was more than a 'rough beginning' she's been through hell and come out the other side seemingly well-adjusted.

Learned a new acronym  YMMV....so if that touched your heart, great!   I survived hell to be on a reality show that devalues women....so I am a role model?   Ok.  Let's see how much she pursues milking this. I was way more interested in the girl that wanted to remain a virgin....when she came on a show known for fantasy suites.  I can't remember her leaving but I think she whined he did not give her a chance...so I don't know how" well "she took it. 

Some people never made it out of the orphanage and still don't today ....and she didn't say she ate lipstick everyday.  God, this show dramatizes everything so much that everyone thinks that in a few episodes they know everything about someone's life.  Who knows what she didn't say it could have been worse, but there are tons of young girls working as sex slaves, having to work in factories and fields, etc. so if you get to go to an orphanage and get adopted, well you are better off than some.

  Actually a lot of time when people have been through trauma they sometimes tend to not remember details quite clearly.....either overstating them or under stating them.  I'm sure the producers hyped up what they could including the living life in color line....looks good on a t shirt- just like cheese pasta and platinum vagine.   We don't even know if all of it was true.   I honestly did not hear the whole story ...but again at least she knew her family....some people never know where they come from. In a snippet I saw she didn't exactly seem that broken up about not keeping in touch with her sister. 

Being crowned Bachelorette is not something I would call deserving.   Again, I am not immune to her agony, I just don't think it was that tragic, but I've seen a lot.   I wish Kristina the best but to me she  was boring and I was not the only one to express that sentiment. 

I just think this show is too shallow to address these type of sob stories.  They just seem out of place with calling other women b's and the other crap that goes on. 

[Nowhere]

On 3/7/2017 at 3:53 AM, amcfar said:

Was that Raven montage supposed to mimic JGL's character's morning-after montage in 500 Days of Summer? That's the first thing I thought of. He was endearing; this was not. Gave me the icky feels. 

That talk between Nick and Vanessa about "traditional values" was really bizarre. Vanessa freely admitted she won't compromise on her Sunday family time. Then in the next breath (or was it a TH? I don't remember) she was talking about how people in relationships need to compromise. Huh?

Nick and Vanessa seem adamant about staying in their respective countries. That is never going to work. A compromise will have to be met if they plan on staying together for any significant length of time. Why not spend half the year in Canada and the other half in the US? Or maybe spend three-fourths of the year in Canada and the summer months in the US? I dunno. If you truly love someone, you'll be willing to compromise on major issues such as this. 

I live in a state that sees temperatures of -50 (or colder) in the winter from time to time and even I don't think I could handle that cold water plunge. Who am I kidding; I can't even handle a luke-warm shower for more than a few minutes (but somehow I can handle severe cold outside--puzzling).

I'm about the least fashion-forward person around (I basically live in sweatpants and hoodies) but I thought the dress that Rachel wore to the rose ceremony was truly stunning! I liked her shimmery eyeshadow too. 

It was a given that Corinne would get the spotlight at the WTA; but why was Taylor in the hot seat for as long as she was? Didn't she last only a few episodes? And the thought of her counseling anyone is frightening. 

It always makes me uncomfortable when, during the WTA (or MTA), the lead is asked why they let someone go--as if they can tell the real reason without coming off like an ***. I mean, what was Nick supposed to say to Danielle when she muttered how confused she was when he cut her loose, mentioning that zinger that she loves to throw around: "You said that I'm the one you could see yourself getting engaged to?" Yes, Danielle--because men always know within two nanoseconds that they want to get married to someone. What he really meant by that not-very-well-thought-out comment was, "Wow, she's hot! Noiiiiice!!!" 

I'm glad you brought this up because I was going to post about it. Vanessa actually said there are things she won't compromise on and then in the TH said she implied that Nick may not realize that relationships take compromise. Basically what she means is that he needs to "compromise" but she doesn't have to. She wants a man to treat her like a princess and do whatever she wants. Maybe a good compromise would be to move somewhere in between the two hometowns. Also, there's no fucking way I'd tell any boyfriend that I will have Sunday lunch with his family every week forever and ever. I'd rather pour gasoline on myself and light a match. It's just not a reasonable "core value". What did Nick mean by traditional vs his non-traditional anyway? I never figured out what they were actually talking about.

I am a firm believer that Nick did not sleep with Raven. He's basically already married to Vanessa. They've been an item since night one so I don't think he would take the chance of his "strong woman" asking questions after the fact. I wouldn't be surprised if the whole orgasm issue wasn't just a made up story for tv. The montage was so stupid and not cute. 

Danielle's vocal fry while she was fake crying was on point. 

The blonde Danielle was annoying during WTA. I don't know if anyone noticed but miss sweetie pie was suddenly trying to show her badass side but she never got a chance to actually talk. Funny. 

Weird how Jasmine was so pro-Corinne.

Taylor seems like a terrible person and I hate people who think they are so damn smart based on a degree. I don't think she's smarter than everyone else just because she had the money and time to get a degree in counseling. Counseling isn't rocket science btw. I'd be impressed if her degree was in astrophysics but since psychology seems to be the go to major these days, right behind the ever popular business major, I'm not impressed. I love therapists. I've had a couple of good ones and an assload of terrible ones. In other words, if it took an iq in the 99th percentile to be a psychologist, there wouldn't be so many of them. Obviously she's not emotionally intelligent or she would have picked up on the fact that none of the women seemed to like her.

[ribboninthesky1]

I haven't really watched the show since episode 6, though I have read the discussion here. Finland is beautiful!

While I do believe Nick really likes Vanessa, I was surprised to observe some of his tense body language and facial expressions during their time together.  Thinking back to their conversation about Corinne and the bouncy house, Nick seemed more invested in her thoughts and feelings.  Whereas this episode, things seemed to be a lot more tense between them after the fun ice-bath dip.  Nick in particular seemed...perturbed at times. If it's like that with cameras around and largely abbreviated time together, I have my doubts. I'll catch the video clips of the Finale/After the Final Rose episode, for sure.   

In truth, I wonder if it's more than just wonky editing that made the season a bit of a bust.  Maybe there just wasn't much of a love story with anyone that developed.

The side-hug between Vanessa and Rachel made me chuckle. Particularly in contrast to the warm and full-on "we're girlfriends, and I wish you the best" hug between Raven and Rachel. Chile...as frosty as the weather outside. 

Didn't watch the WTA - I expected it to be mostly the Corinne show, so I didn't miss anything.  

That US Weekly link about Luke and Danielle was particularly interesting because there was video of Luke talking about Nick as the Bachelor (he was asked).  He compared him to a ventriloquist, and I died! I saw it before I watched the latest episode, and I can't unsee it.  I wasn't a Luke fan during Jojo's season, but he may have more of a sense of humor than I thought.  Wonder what his season would have been like.  Ah well. 

Edited March 9, 2017 by ribboninthesky1

[GracieK]

I know this is a minority opinion and almost no one will agree with me but I love Corrine.  At first when she was taking her top off and it was all the Corrine show I wasn't that much of a fan, but as the season progressed she grew on me.  And she makes me laugh.  I've never seen someone so confidently not give a shit what anyone thinks while at the same time not be nasty or go out of their way to be hurtful to others.  I know she insulted Taylor but it really was after Taylor was completely condescending and just downright nasty to her.  And honestly, I find her emotional intelligence to be much higher than Taylor's who is trained to read people, and couldn't read a room if it was on a teleprompter for her.  I just find Corrine to be a breath of fresh air that doesn't take it all so seriously.. because come on... how serious is this show?  I hope to see her on BiP.  

Edited March 9, 2017 by GracieK

[MsPH]

I think what Liz was referring to when she claimed she'd tried to make their paths cross or whatever, is the same thing Jade referred to while defending Liz in the mags after the first two episodes. Apparently Liz had asked Jade to invite Nick to some charity even they were organising, but Nick was busy and couldn't make it. It wasn't clear if Nick had any idea about the ulterior motive behind the invitation, so I'm not surprised he doesn't know what on earth she's talking about. In any case, it's pretty ridiculous. They're all adults, Liz should've just invited him herself. I'm pretty sure they were also following each other on Twitter before filming, so she could've simply sent Nick a DM if she wanted. No need to try and orchestrate some undercover meeting through a friend, it's so high school.

[GracieK]

I was surprised that Jasmine and her chokey got off easy at the Tell All.  

[catrice2]

16 hours ago, CindyBee said:

No, Lauren quit being a flight attendant as she claimed it wouldn't be safe for her to work being well known now.  Or something like that.  I don't know what she does for a living now as she always seems to be on vacation.

Fun fact....the woman who played Esther, Mrs. Chancellor's maid, on the Young and the Restless was a flight attendant.  She kept that job in all those years on the show.   At it's peak I would venture to say Y&R was more popular (and in other countries) than the Bachelor.  Esther managed to keep working, but she is not safe?  Ok!   

 

Sue me, I suffer from insomnia....

[rebel2u]

Me too!  I was expecting to hear about her chokey and thought that she would be called out for pushing no-chin Corrine (God, I'm going to h-e-double hockey sticks for being so mean) down at the volleyball game, when Corrine then yelped loudly, "On my God, Jasmine!" iirc.