S13.E15: Civil War

[Pepper the Cat]

That was a truly depressing episode. 

All that bickering! I wanted to reach into the TV and smack them all!

[Primetimer]

Jackson focuses his anger on his mother while Alex and Nathan engage in a heart-to-heart duel.

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[SimoneS]

2 hours ago, Biggie B said:

I have always liked Catherine a lot. I like that she's older and has been around the block and has made a good life for herself. She's intelligent and accomplished. That said...I definitely understand what everyone feels about her with this current situation. I don't know if her marriage can survive this and if it doesn't, it will be her own fault. I'm disappointed in her character. I'm wary of her relationship with April - is she truly mentoring April, or just using her, or what? Yes, April is the mother of Catherine's grandchild, and thus, the two women will always have a connection. It would be nice if that connection was genuine. We'll see, I guess. I still like Catherine and want her to not be so ruthless.

I like Catherine for who she is. Not everyone has to be nice. She is an instigator and antagonist. She actually reminds me of Rosalind Shays from LA Law who I grew to like a lot. Catherine's problem is that she is antagonizing her family not co-workers. She must believe that they will understand, but she is risking alienating them.

[Ohwell]

So that means she'll fall down the elevator shaft at some point?

[iMonrey]

The whole Minnick storyline is one convoluted mess. It makes no sense whatsoever for Catherine to conspire with Bailey behind Richard's back to replace him. There's no justification for it and there's no reason it should have ever happened, so everything about this whole situation seems ridiculously flimsy and poorly written. 

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I don't think Arizona dating Minnick makes her a hypocrite (. . .) It means she has bad taste though....

This is another absurd situation. As everyone else has already noted, this dumb bitch just got a kid killed last week with her overzealous teaching methods. Does that turn Arizona on or something? It's like Upside Down world and everyone is acting the opposite of how they should be acting. If they wanted a new love interest for Arizona, they went about it in the laziest and most implausible way imaginable. 

The medical stories usually have some sort of heavy-handed parallel to whatever personal drama is currently afflicting the doctors, but for the life of me I couldn't figure out what they were trying to say with the two gay guys and the deep fryer accident. Who was that supposed to relate to? Owen and Amelia? Because every time she looks at him she'll be thinking of how she denied him a baby? I don't get it. 

[Biggie B]

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...I couldn't figure out what they were trying to say with the two gay guys and the deep fryer accident. Who was that supposed to relate to?

Maybe it was just a vehicle to allow all the fighting and squabbling between Richard, Catherine, April, and Jackson? It was so over the top; I honestly thought the daughter/sister was going to physically assault the fiancé.

[Deanie87]

1 hour ago, Greysaddict said:

I'm barely watching this show any more....but when Jackson and Warren are my two favorite characters of the episode something is wrong.  Every storyline they have going is awful and boring.  Arizona/Minnick- No; Owen/Amelia- Nope; Meredith/Riggs- who cares anymore?  I certainly don't buy that either of them do; Jo's backstory- oh wait, that was a thing?  

Everything is terrible.

Also, why is everyone acting like Meredith is supposed to be young?  She was at least 30 when the show started and it's been at least 10 years in the show's timeline, plus she has 3 kids and is a surgeon.  I appreciate that she doesn't look 30 anymore.

That's kind of where I am too.  The few storylines I care about have been dragged out since last freakin' season and then stalled or completely dropped.  I don't understand the motivations of most of the characters anymore, and the writing for so many of them has been so uneven that they barely exist as real characters anymore.

I am vaguely interested in the Catherine/Jackson dynamic (and how it involves Richard), but not enough to watch an entire episode devoted to him and April bickering.  The storylines (or lack thereof) for the majority of the romantic couples only reinforce the fact that not only should most of them not be together, they shouldn't even be allowed in the same hospital.  And if they are going to try to push Mer/Riggs, Jo/DeLuca or god forbid, Mer/Alex, then they are going to have show me (not tell me) that more than one of those involved in the potential pairings actually gives a shit about the other romantically.  So far, I just ain't seeing it.

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I like Catherine for who she is. Not everyone has to be nice. She is an instigator and antagonist. She actually reminds me of Rosalind Shays from LA Law who I grew to like a lot. Catherine's problem is that she is antagonizing her family not co-workers. She must believe that they will understand, but she is risking alienating them.

 

Me too.  Or maybe not "like" exactly, but I definitely find her interesting and appreciate what she brings to the show.  I usually don't care for the Shondaland version  of "strong yet vulnerable woman trying to have it all" as they either come off as a total bitch or kick-ass surgeon who acts like a tween on their first date in their dating life.  But Catherine is unapologetic and can be vulnerable without laying out some past tragedy or breaking down prettily in a closet.  She isn't like every other Grey's character, and I guess I do like that about her. 

[OtterMommy]

So, I have no actual opinion on the specifics of this episode....because I just don't care.  However, I did realize a few larger things.  Most of all, I strangely don't dislike any character on this show (except Minnick).  I tend to dislike characters when they are in relationships  with others and confuse disliking the relationship for disliking the characters.  This became clear when I was watching the last scene with Riggs and Mer.  I actually like Riggs, in fact he's one of my favorites on the show at the moment (along with DeLuca and Ben, both of whom are under- or mis-used) but I get very itchy when they try to put him with Meredith.  I thought it was because I didn't like him, but it's actually because I don't like him with her.  Amelia?  I actually have absolutely no problem with her outside her relationship with Owen.  I have always like Richard, and I've had this "love to hate" thing with Catherine, but I really can't stand either of them right now.  I'm normally a big Arizona fan, but not right now because of Minnick.

And the more they try to make Minnick likable, the more I despise her.

I do really wish that they would give DeLuca a storyline beyond just being a pawn in the pissing fights of others. The actor is strong and, so far, DeLuca is one of the few characters acting like an actual adult.  Of course, I'm sure if the did do that, they'd make him as immature as the others.

[dmc]

2 hours ago, Greysaddict said:

I'm barely watching this show any more....but when Jackson and Warren are my two favorite characters of the episode something is wrong.  Every storyline they have going is awful and boring.  Arizona/Minnick- No; Owen/Amelia- Nope; Meredith/Riggs- who cares anymore?  I certainly don't buy that either of them do; Jo's backstory- oh wait, that was a thing?  

Everything is terrible.

Also, why is everyone acting like Meredith is supposed to be young?  She was at least 30 when the show started and it's been at least 10 years in the show's timeline, plus she has 3 kids and is a surgeon.  I appreciate that she doesn't look 30 anymore.

I have seen Ellen in person and she looks great...she actually looks worse on the show...tired or something...maybe the makeup person

[dmc]

50 minutes ago, OtterMommy said:

So, I have no actual opinion on the specifics of this episode....because I just don't care.  However, I did realize a few larger things.  Most of all, I strangely don't dislike any character on this show (except Minnick).  I tend to dislike characters when they are in relationships  with others and confuse disliking the relationship for disliking the characters.  This became clear when I was watching the last scene with Riggs and Mer.  I actually like Riggs, in fact he's one of my favorites on the show at the moment (along with DeLuca and Ben, both of whom are under- or mis-used) but I get very itchy when they try to put him with Meredith.  I thought it was because I didn't like him, but it's actually because I don't like him with her.  Amelia?  I actually have absolutely no problem with her outside her relationship with Owen.  I have always like Richard, and I've had this "love to hate" thing with Catherine, but I really can't stand either of them right now.  I'm normally a big Arizona fan, but not right now because of Minnick.

And the more they try to make Minnick likable, the more I despise her.

I do really wish that they would give DeLuca a storyline beyond just being a pawn in the pissing fights of others. The actor is strong and, so far, DeLuca is one of the few characters acting like an actual adult.  Of course, I'm sure if the did do that, they'd make him as immature as the others.

Agreed Riggs has chemistry with everyone but Meredith

[walnutqueen]

Mama Avery kills April and then we have "How to Get Away With Murder" ...

I just can't, anymore.  Seriously.

[moonorchid]

Any episode where within the opening scenes of the episode I am incensed and say "fuck you mer!", I know it's gonna be just THAT kind of episode. 

Ive already written about that point so I won't again.

- I just can't with Amelia and owelia...but especially Amelia. She is way too emotionally fragile to be with anyone right now..And it's not like she doesn't have cause. She's a recovering alcoholic, that struggle is forever,  but this thing with her and Owen...I said it before...they bonded over their tragic pasts without actually revealing what those pasts were. Asking people to walk in front of her to see if Owen is there, I mean cmon! If you don't want kids that is fine, but let the man know and then let him go. The only person I could ever buy him giving up that dream of a family for is Cristina. 

- the Webber/Avery/kepner drama. I can't tell if Catherine is actually taking a vested interest in aprils skills or if she's manipulating her, and if she is, to what end? What does April have that Catherine wants to get out of her? Its easy I guess to forget all the crap from last year but I've never been positive april knew Catherine spear headed the custody battle. I'm about done with jacksons attitude. I'm glad he stood up to his mother but he is taking this thing to whole new levels. Whenever he spoke to Catherine this episode he sounded so petulant, especially with his "I've never been more glad of anything in my entire life", grow up Jackson! And at first aprils "are you jealous?" Was ridiculous but then I remember Jackson being all, "you have april, the Avery you want" to Catherine and I was like, huh? I'm so confused on what his actual problem is. Hopefully next weeks sheds light on this cause I was just left scratching my head. 

- nitpick, when Webber was all, "april you're no longer chief of surgery..." if it was Meredith in that moment he would never have spoken to her like that. I'm so beyond done with this show trying to make me believe april stole mers job and should be considered a snake for it. 

- God Riggs and Meredith. I'm whatever but he just gets so douchey around mer and I don't like it. I don't understand this thrall she has. Is she that great in bed? Cause there has been ZERO reasons other than that for why Riggs wants to be with her. Every time they speak she's either hostile or dismissive except one to,e they bonded over dead spouses. I'm just not buying them.

- I really hope this show doesn't pair Deluca with Alex often. Maybe if this show acknowledged what Alex did was wrong and he was 100% at fault and had him punished in some form for it it would be one thing, but as it stands, you have a man who has to work under his superior who beat him violently and got away with it. Whether this show means to or not, when Alex yelled at him and Deluca eyes got wide in fear...there's a whole other level to it and it makes me uncomfortable. It should not be on Deluca to be the bigger man but in this year of the originals, characters like Deluca have been sacrificed to prop up Alex. It's leaving a bitter taste in my mouth.

- the patient case. I felt bad for the fiancé. It sounded like the sister didn't like hi, already and this just pushed her over the edge. It sounded like a horrible accident that he feels horrible for and he wanted to help and be there anyway he could, even taking all the comments and insinuations and barbs the sister was throwing at him. And it affected the brother and he was wrong. My gosh when all he offered was to bring them food and the sister is all, "food?...FOOD?" What you not gonna eat the rest of your life because of this?

All in all it was frustrating but with a title like "civil war" it was expected at least.

[OtterMommy]

2 minutes ago, moonorchid said:

- the Webber/Avery/kepner drama. I can't tell if Catherine is actually taking a vested interest in aprils skills or if she's manipulating her, and if she is, to what end? What does April have that Catherine wants to get out of her? Its easy I guess to forget all the crap from last year but I've never been positive april knew Catherine spear headed the custody battle. I'm about done with jacksons attitude. I'm glad he stood up to his mother but he is taking this thing to whole new levels. Whenever he spoke to Catherine this episode he sounded so petulant, especially with his "I've never been more glad of anything in my entire life", grow up Jackson! And at first aprils "are you jealous?" Was ridiculous but then I remember Jackson being all, "you have april, the Avery you want" to Catherine and I was like, huh? I'm so confused on what his actual problem is. Hopefully next weeks sheds light on this cause I was just left scratching my head. 

Yeah, I was kind of perplexed with this whole thing.  I mean, Catherine went from wanting to take April's child from her, to having dinner with her, to being her mentor.  Why is she doing this?  She has never liked April and I don't buy the "I see myself in her" crap from the previous episode.  I'm not sure if she's doing this to get back at Jackson for finally having some semblance of a spine and standing up to her or if she's trying to put a wedge between Jackson and April, or if she is just looking for some sort of ally.

As I said before, I've always "loved to hate" Catherine.  She entertained me, I was interested in what she was going to do, but I would never have wanted her in my life.  Now I'm just annoyed by her, especially with the whole aspect of her being married to Richard comes into play.

On another note, if April is such a great chief (and I do believe she would be good at that--she does seem to have kind of an administrative mind), why not make her the Chief of Trauma?  Yeah, I know Owen is already there, but he made clear seasons ago that he doesn't like the "chief" duties and if anyone needs some relief from duties to sort out all their baggage, it is Owen.

[maraleia]

Here's where I'm at. If Shonda wants this show to continue for many years she needs to focus on it more than Scandal which (along with HTGAWM) needs to end after next season. They are running on fumes even more than Grey's because at least this show can use medical cases to tell their stories.

Meredith was born in 1978 and from what I've read the timeline puts the show sometime in 2018 due to the time jump after Derek's death, and what was established early in the show's run. This means her character is 40 and the actor is 47.

No one should be criticized for the way they look because that's just wrong.

I wish they would've introduced Minnick in a better way so I could root for her and Arizona because I need my lesbian loving action pronto. There aren't that many shows featuring lesbian characters anymore so I'm starved for representation.

[WhosThatGirl]

Everyone on this show is annoying. Except for DeLuca, who might be the only one who acts like a real doctor. Oh and baileys husband, at least this season. I liked when all the doctor said were fighting before surgery and he wasn't here for it.

[Wilson]

First, I just have to say, I love reading everyone's posts every week.  We can all watch the same episode and come away with so many different opinions and emotions about what happened.  While I don't always agree with everyone, I still like reading your thoughts.  So, here are mine!

April/Jackson/Webber/Catherine:  (This might be spoilery for the next episode if people haven't watched the promo!) I noticed someone mentioned they didn't understand the patient metaphor in relation to the doctor's stories in this case (because we all know there has to be one).  In my opinion, the patient's injuries represented what April/Jackson/Webber/Catherine are doing to each other.  He was burned, stabbed, and literally had his insides coming out, while they are doing all the same things to each other figuratively.  That is why there was no resolution with that patient.  April said they should close and wait until he is stronger.  They told the family he needed time to rest.  And the same is true of April/Jackson/Webber/Catherine.  All this fighting is wearing on all of them, and they need more time before they will recover from it.  I don't think it is spoilery to say Jackson is going to see his father in the next episode since it is in the promo, but if it is, I apologize.  All of this anger from him is really about feeling the need to protect Webber because he is the only man he has ever seen as a father figure.  He doesn't really care one way or another about Minnick or her method, but he does care about Webber. Jesse Williams said in an interview once that Jackson is either really bottled up or really effusive, and I think he can no longer contain all his feelings on this issue.  They are spilling over toward everyone, but especially those he is closest, too. I think he has already found his father in Montana, and that is why he was so secretive with what he was looking at on the laptop and why he wants to go see that patient with the throat tumor. Someone mentioned they weren't sure why April would be there, but I'm not sure why she wouldn't.  I know there are some who don't like her, but for the most part Jackson and April are widely liked as a couple, and are the most married divorced couple ever.  Sarah said in an interview that when she pitched the Samuel story she thought it would be a great opportunity for Jackson to be heroic, and he was.  While they both lost a child, the show chose to focus on how April dealt with terminating the pregnancy and Jackson supporting her through it. It seems they are doing the opposite with his father storyline.  Jackson is dealing with his abandonment and April is supporting him through it.  It's not as if she follows him around with puppy dog eyes hoping he takes her back.  He asked her to move in.  When she offered to leave once she was healed, he asked her to stay.  This isn't April inserting herself into Jackson's life.  He can't work through his feelings for her well enough to admit anything so instead he sulks on the couch while she attempts to move on.  I do think the show intends to put them back together.  The promo says, "You can't move forward until you deal with the past," so he is dealing with it.  Even the writer of last night's episode tweeted how much she loves Japril.  As much as I hate all the fighting, I like that they are letting Jackson deal with his issues, meet his father, and then (hopefully) move on from it.  

Mer/Alex/Riggs: Sigh.  Someone else said this felt like a set-up for a love triangle, but God I hope not.  Ellen and Justin have both said multiple times that they don't see a romantic connection between Mer and Alex.  They feel they are more siblings.  I agree.  And if the actors can't buy it, I don't think they will be able to sell it.  I am all for Mer and Riggs getting together, but why the contrived obstacles?  First Maggie, now Alex?  It all feels a bit high school, and it is making it hard for me to root for them. And I want to.  And in response to the comments on Mer not being pretty enough for Riggs, I think they are equal in looks.  Ellen looks great for 47.  And I should add she is not one of my favorites, so I am certainly not biased when I say that.  Her character has become way too snarky and bitter for me, but I don't think her looks are a problem.  

Jo/Deluca: Their scene where she complimented him and they looked at each other a bit too long was cute.  Which frustrates me.  I like Jo and Alex (I know.  Start booing now.)  I also think that Jo's husband will inevitably show up and Alex and her will be thrown together in some capacity again.  So, now I am just left feeling sorry for Deluca cause he is a good guy, but he is not going to win in a contest against Alex.

Owen/Amelia:  I really want to care about them.  I do.  But I don't.  Because their story is such a rehash of Crowen, it is being majorly overshadowed by all the other stories.  They come onscreen and I think, "Oh, yeah.  This again."  I would love for them to be happy, but apparently that will be dragged out until who knows when.  Plus this story is really damaging Amelia's character.  She could have some great stuff if they let her deal with her baby's death, but of course they aren't doing that...

Arizona/Eliza: These two sneaking around is supposed to be sexy, but it's not. It just makes me frustrated with Arizona.  Everyone is hating April/Catherine/Jackson/Mer/Webber or whoever they side with and Arizona is literally kissing the enemy.  She's made some questionable decisions in the past, but this one really makes me give her the side eye when she comes on screen.  

Warren:  Can he be Chief?

[DearEvette]

Things I have no time for:

Riggs and Meredith .   I don't dislike Meredith.  But could somebody please explain to me what Riggs sees in her?   Sure they had sex in a car. And maybe she really rocked his world.  But he is a grown ass man and I would hope that one night of sex, even good sex in a car isn't enough to make you fall in love.  Especially if the woman in question is habitually dismissive, stand offish and snotty to you.   It completely baffles me.  They have no chemistry.

Amelia.  I won't even add Owen to this mess because the man is blameless, imo. 

Minnick.  Really show?  So everyone is giving her a tongue bath and she's winning people over?  Really? Just like that?   The lack of any fall out of her part in that child dying is ridiculous.  Even if it was something that could have happened to any surgeon, her inability to actually teach Stephanie something as simple as how to deal with it should at least have Steph looking at her as a fraud.  I mean, Steph and Minnick haven't even had a scene together since then, but we are get a scene of Steph praising her?  GTFO!

Minnick and Arizona: shudder.  No chemistry.

Karev and Riggs:  This "fight" was such a transparent, contrived thing that it practically insults our intelligence.  No way would Karev not have at least considered transplant as an option for that kid instead of rejecting it out of hand.  We've seen Alex weigh options before when it comes to trying to make a decision on how to do treatment.  This was ridiculous an in service to the terrible Riggs/Mer romance.

Catherine's mentoring April. If Catherine is actually seriously mentoring April on the up and up then it is not in keeping with her character and it is just as contrived as Alex & Riggs fighting.

Things I am here for:

Catherine Manipulating April. Not because I dislike April necessarily, but because it is more in line with what Catherine would do.  And frankly it is more interesting.  I could see Catherine keeping April close in order to try one day have some influence over Harriet, especially if April and Jackson really do part ways.

Maggie Adulting. I think we've had two eps in a row where Maggie actually felt more like a chief than a Dougie Howser.

Jackson having a storyline. One that doesn't revolve around his marriage or non-marriage to April.

[chitowngirl]

Some posters have mentioned Jackson dealing with his father. Was his father in this episode?

When Amy saw Owen in the ER when she was trying to sneak out (and a hospital has many ways to exit, don't use the one where you are most likely to run into the person you are trying to avoid!), her eyes held such longing for Owen. I just wish they'd TALK!! Owen's not an ogre, he'll understand your feelings.

[Wilson]

8 minutes ago, chitowngirl said:

Some posters have mentioned Jackson dealing with his father. Was his father in this episode?

 

He goes to confront him in the promo for the next episode.

[Greysaddict]

5 hours ago, moonorchid said:

 

- the Webber/Avery/kepner drama. I can't tell if Catherine is actually taking a vested interest in aprils skills or if she's manipulating her, and if she is, to what end? What does April have that Catherine wants to get out of her? Its easy I guess to forget all the crap from last year but I've never been positive april knew Catherine spear headed the custody battle. I'm about done with jacksons attitude. I'm glad he stood up to his mother but he is taking this thing to whole new levels. Whenever he spoke to Catherine this episode he sounded so petulant, especially with his "I've never been more glad of anything in my entire life", grow up Jackson! And at first aprils "are you jealous?" Was ridiculous but then I remember Jackson being all, "you have april, the Avery you want" to Catherine and I was like, huh? I'm so confused on what his actual problem is. Hopefully next weeks sheds light on this cause I was just left scratching my head. 

 

1 hour ago, DearEvette said:

Catherine's mentoring April. If Catherine is actually seriously mentoring April on the up and up then it is not in keeping with her character and it is just as contrived as Alex & Riggs fighting.

Actually, Catherine mentoring April is more in line with their history.  Before she and Jackson got married, April was actually close to Catherine...emailing her and texting her for work advice/mentoring.  She also called Catherine to come do a surgery at GSMH at one point when Richard wouldn't admit they needed her.  I'm sure there are other examples that aren't on the top of my mind.  I'd actually argue that Catherine manipulating/suing April over custody was the out of character storyline for these two.  

[OtterMommy]

4 hours ago, maraleia said:

Meredith was born in 1978 and from what I've read the timeline puts the show sometime in 2018 due to the time jump after Derek's death, and what was established early in the show's run. This means her character is 40 and the actor is 47.

They were in 2018, now they are back in 2017 (there was a shot of the date on an iPad when April was coming back from maternity leave that put it at October 2016--and that was back in October 2016).  I guess we shouldn't think about it...or something?  It really annoys me when shows are sloppy like this.

[Wilson]

10 minutes ago, Greysaddict said:

 

Actually, Catherine mentoring April is more in line with their history.  Before she and Jackson got married, April was actually close to Catherine...emailing her and texting her for work advice/mentoring.  She also called Catherine to come do a surgery at GSMH at one point when Richard wouldn't admit they needed her.  I'm sure there are other examples that aren't on the top of my mind.  I'd actually argue that Catherine manipulating/suing April over custody was the out of character storyline for these two.  

This. Before Catherine knew Jackson and April were a thing, she was offering to set April up with someone to study (and have sex with) for her boards. She did seem to be a mentor early on. As much as she has been especially hard on April, Catherine has also had her best moments as a character with April, in my opinion. The scene where Catherine comforts April about Samuel in 11x11, and the scene where they hug on the hospital roof after April calls her for a consult a few episodes after Samuel dies are both beautiful. Catherine also praised April's skills and attitude to Bailey during 11x24 when April brings the crushed car to the ER. I can see why people think Catherine is manipulating her. Catherine is a manipulative person at times. However, Aril seems to be a bit different. Besides Jackson and Webber, April is the only person Catherine ever shows genuine affection for. I am not sure if the times she was awful to April were just typical mother in law characteristics or maybe feeling she needed to protect Jackson. But either way, I do think Catherine is being genuine in her interest in April.   

[FnkyChkn34]

This may not be the favorable opinion, or even what I personally would like to see happen, but... can't Meredith and Alex just get together already?  It really seems like the show is headed that way, and trying Meredith with Riggs is just ridiculous.  And Jo is completely unimportant anymore, so... yeah.  Just do the inevitable already and get it over with.

[mojito]

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Understanding time on this show is pointless though.

I found myself wondering, "How old are these people supposed to be?" High school-level drama.

So many people have made comments in the past about Meredith's children, and I have never cared one bit about them. They were just plot devices and aren't needed anymore. But it occurs to me that if they showed how big the kids are, we'd have a better idea of how much the adults have aged, and I don't think they really want to do that. Regardless of whatever clues might have been dropped in the past, I think the show wants to keep these charactrers ageless.

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No one should be criticized for the way they look because that's just wrong.

From your lips....I'm always pretty stunned at how critical people are of others' looks on these boards. They're usually prefaced with, "This might be shallow of me but...." or "I know I shouldn't say this but..." I wonder if there would be less of that if we were required to post our own photos? Ooh, maybe our driver license photos at that.

[kdm07]

- It's been a long day so I could have forgotten this but have Minnick and Webber actually sat down, BY THEMSELVES, and had a conversation about both their roles now at the hospital? Or did it just descend into childish bickering from the minute she stepped foot into the hospital? I know the adults of the show tend to act like children 95% of the time but I'm reaching my limit here with how ridiculous they're all being. When the residents are acting more like adults than the attendings then we have serious problems.

- Either hook them up or don't but either way, resolve this Meredith & Riggs dancing around each other stuff asap.

- Jackson was wrong to never hear April out about her taking over the Chief role temporarily but he's not wrong about his mother. Something's going on there with her but we don't know what yet.

- Get over yourself Alex. DeLuca always had the patient's life as his first priority not your feelings.

- Arizona can like/date Minnick all she wants but she should've said something to Webber. Interesting to see how she gets out of this one.

[funnygirl]

After Richard adjusted to Dr. Minnick's presence the first day, he told Bailey that he was willing to work with her. But when Bailey presented that to Minnick, she told Bailey that she works alone. 

So, in my opinion, she's equally at fault for not being a team player. But just like after killing a kid and leaving her resident hanging while she runs off to cry in the attendings lounge, she will evade any real repercussions from this, too. 

[OtterMommy]

14 minutes ago, funnygirl said:

After Richard adjusted to Dr. Minnick's presence the first day, he told Bailey that he was willing to work with her. But when Bailey presented that to Minnick, she told Bailey that she works alone. 

So, in my opinion, she's equally at fault for not being a team player. But just like after killing a kid and leaving her resident hanging while she runs off to cry in the attendings lounge, she will evade any real repercussions from this, too. 

There is a lot of blame to go around regarding the current climate at SGMWGSMH:

1 - Catherine for demanding a change, that would directly impact the staff, including her husband and son, and then trying to put it all on Bailey

2 - Bailey, for handling things in a very unprofessional manner

3 - Minnick, for not bothering to treat the staff with any sort of respect and also for not being especially good at her job.

4 - The attendings, for behaving like children over this entire thing.  Really?  A coup?

5 - Richard, for not taking responsibility for his own position and talking to Minnick (and Bailey) as @funnygirl suggests.

But, really, of all these, the one that I feel is the hardest to forgive is Minnick.  She came into the hospital with some sort of superiority complex, demanding that the staff bend to her will, putting patients in danger, behaving in a way that I would consider inappropriate with the interns, intentionally putting patients in danger, causing the death of a child because of her own hubris, not owning up to the death of the child, etc.  

What makes it worse is that I feel that the show wants us to just forget all that and like her....and things just don't work like that.

[moonorchid]

2 hours ago, Greysaddict said:

 

Actually, Catherine mentoring April is more in line with their history.  Before she and Jackson got married, April was actually close to Catherine...emailing her and texting her for work advice/mentoring.  She also called Catherine to come do a surgery at GSMH at one point when Richard wouldn't admit they needed her.  I'm sure there are other examples that aren't on the top of my mind.  I'd actually argue that Catherine manipulating/suing April over custody was the out of character storyline for these two.  

I remember this but I'm unsure at times the show does, lol.

but yes, that's why Catherine's actions were considered ooc, there's anger at april for what she did to Jackson by leaving, and there's being manipulative and sneaky and lulling april into a false sense of security during an emotional time in her life to try and take her daughter away from her. 

Before that Catherine seemed quite fond of april. Catherine is one of the few people who doesn't dismiss at first glance and Catherine can be pretty dismissive.  She always seemed to take an interest in april and maybe that had to do with keeping tabs on Jackson, but I thought they've always had a sweet relationship before everything went to shit.

[maraleia]

3 hours ago, OtterMommy said:

They were in 2018, now they are back in 2017 (there was a shot of the date on an iPad when April was coming back from maternity leave that put it at October 2016--and that was back in October 2016).  I guess we shouldn't think about it...or something?  It really annoys me when shows are sloppy like this.

Don't even get me started on The Fosters timeline. Really shows need to hire me to keep track of this stuff so the writers can do their jobs with the story. This shouldn't be the job of the script supervisor either.

[walnutqueen]

2 hours ago, mojito said:

I found myself wondering, "How old are these people supposed to be?" High school-level drama.

So many people have made comments in the past about Meredith's children, and I have never cared one bit about them. They were just plot devices and aren't needed anymore. But it occurs to me that if they showed how big the kids are, we'd have a better idea of how much the adults have aged, and I don't think they really want to do that. Regardless of whatever clues might have been dropped in the past, I think the show wants to keep these charactrers ageless.

From your lips....I'm always pretty stunned at how critical people are of others' looks on these boards. They're usually prefaced with, "This might be shallow of me but...." or "I know I shouldn't say this but..." I wonder if there would be less of that if we were required to post our own photos? Ooh, maybe our driver license photos at that.

Pretty fuckin sure any recent photo of me would break the internet forever.  Back when I was young, hot, skinny & queen of the nude beach?  That's the only photo I'd be willing to share ...  (yeah, it doesn't show my face!)   :-)

It feels like I've been watching this show forever.  One of these days I'll tune in and Meredith Grey will have Meredith GRAY hair.

[DearEvette]

14 hours ago, OtterMommy said:

5 - Richard, for not taking responsibility for his own position and talking to Minnick (and Bailey) as @funnygirl suggests.

I agree with everything on your post, but I have to absolve Richard of responsibility here.  The way I read the scene with Bailey, Minnick was basically given authority over Richard in any role he maintained in the Residency program.  She made it clear she wouldn't work with him, she took his job.  If that is the case then it should have been on Minnick to make the approach to Richard, not vice versa.  No subordinate goes to their superior and says "I am willing to work with you."  At the very least Minnick realizing that she was entering into a sensitive work situation and Richard's relationship with the residents and longevity with the hospital should have been a lot more diplomatic in how she incorporated him in her plans.

For me, Bailey is the real villain in this piece.  She allowed herself to be manipulated by Catherine, she allowed Minnick to dictate terms and a level latitude in the hospital that just alienated everyone, and she allowed Richard to take the blame for a system that (if it was broken)  wasn't one he created.  She basically bungled the whole thing.

[Court]

19 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

I agree with everything on your post, but I have to absolve Richard of responsibility here.  The way I read the scene with Bailey, Minnick was basically given authority over Richard in any role he maintained in the Residency program.  She made it clear she wouldn't work with him, she took his job.  If that is the case then it should have been on Minnick to make the approach to Richard, not vice versa.  No subordinate goes to their superior and says "I am willing to work with you."  At the very least Minnick realizing that she was entering into a sensitive work situation and Richard's relationship with the residents and longevity with the hospital should have been a lot more diplomatic in how she incorporated him in her plans.

For me, Bailey is the real villain in this piece.  She allowed herself to be manipulated by Catherine, she allowed Minnick to dictate terms and a level latitude in the hospital that just alienated everyone, and she allowed Richard to take the blame for a system that (if it was broken)  wasn't one he created.  She basically bungled the whole thing.

I agree. Plus, Richard did try talking to Minnick after the first day. 

[thewhiteowl]

Minnick knows her method will cause this reaction in the attendings, she has done this before. She puts the residents in charge so of course they love her. Whether or not they are ready. Bailey interfered even though Minnick told her not to.

[Gladrags]

On 3/10/2017 at 0:53 PM, OtterMommy said:

And the more they try to make Minnick likable, the more I despise her.

I really really really wish that she hadn't outed herself as a Pierogi Queen and spoken to Arizona in Polish. Because now I want to like her. Dammit, show!

On 3/10/2017 at 2:39 PM, moonorchid said:

Any episode where within the opening scenes of the episode I am incensed and say "fuck you mer!", I know it's gonna be just THAT kind of episode. 

[snip]

- nitpick, when Webber was all, "april you're no longer chief of surgery..." if it was Meredith in that moment he would never have spoken to her like that. I'm so beyond done with this show trying to make me believe april stole mers job and should be considered a snake for it. 

This annoyed me more than anything else on the show. Karev being an asshat to April as always aside, why the hell is everyone so snide with April about doing Meredith's job? Especially Meredith! Meredith did something stupid, paid for it, and someone had to take her place while she was having her tantrum. GSM seems more like a day care than a hospital filled with educated professionals at times ... OK, most of the time. 

20 hours ago, Wilson said:

Warren:  Can he be Chief?

Amen to that. And have DeLuca be his right hand surgeon. 

16 hours ago, kdm07 said:

- Get over yourself Alex. DeLuca always had the patient's life as his first priority not your feelings.

Can't say this enough. We know Alex is a douche; do we have to be reminded of it multiple times every episode? 

Edited March 11, 2017 by Gladrags

[OtterMommy]

1 hour ago, DearEvette said:

I agree with everything on your post, but I have to absolve Richard of responsibility here.  The way I read the scene with Bailey, Minnick was basically given authority over Richard in any role he maintained in the Residency program.  She made it clear she wouldn't work with him, she took his job.  If that is the case then it should have been on Minnick to make the approach to Richard, not vice versa.  No subordinate goes to their superior and says "I am willing to work with you."  At the very least Minnick realizing that she was entering into a sensitive work situation and Richard's relationship with the residents and longevity with the hospital should have been a lot more diplomatic in how she incorporated him in her plans.

 

I would agree with you completely, but Richard loss a bit of cred with me when he joined the so-called coup going on.  I think I would have had more respect for him if he had done his best to "stay above the fray" so to speak.  

That being said, I still think he bears probably the least blame of anyone involved.

[StaceyNotStacie]

Alex bugged me this episode. It seemed like he was going alpha male and marking his territory in regards to Riggs, both with Meredith and in the Peds Department. I don't think he would have questioned the transplant if Maggie had suggested it. 

I usually don't mind Jackson, but he also bugged me. I don't like how he's been acting towards April. I think there was a bit of truth in the comment to his mother about her being the Avery she always wanted; he seemed a bit jealous of the professional relationship that the two have. I wonder if the tumor that he was looking at that April commented on at the end of the episode belonged to his father. 

I'm over Amelia and her issues, but I'm glad that Maggie has her back. Those two seem closer than Maggie and Meredith. I'm hoping that we're headed towards an end to the Amelia/Owen conflict and that it doesn't drag on to the next season. I wish they'd develop more of a friendship between April and Amelia or at least a scene with April, Amelia and Baby Harriet where Amelia brings up her baby and a conversation ensues about having a healthy baby after losing one shortly after birth. I could see April as a go-between with Amelia and Owen to try to get them to talk if they had one conversation discussing their similar past losses. 

[Ohwell]

17 hours ago, mojito said:

From your lips....I'm always pretty stunned at how critical people are of others' looks on these boards. They're usually prefaced with, "This might be shallow of me but...." or "I know I shouldn't say this but..." I wonder if there would be less of that if we were required to post our own photos? Ooh, maybe our driver license photos at that.

But since we aren't required to show our photos, and since we aren't being paid $$$$$$$ to be on tv, and they're too busy filming and living their lives to be on boards anyway, it's comforting to know that we can snark all we want. : )  

That said, Meredith looks tired.

Edited March 11, 2017 by Ohwell

[funnygirl]

3 hours ago, Gladrags said:

I really really really wish that she hadn't outed herself as a Pierogi Queen and spoken to Arizona in Polish. Because now I want to like her. Dammit, show!

This was essentially some sort of power play over Callie/Calzona. To be like, "Look everyone! Arizona's new girlfriend is of another nationality just like the love of her life/ex wife! #notjustwhite" 

Never did Cristina Yang ever randomly break out into Korean. And the one time Callie spoke Spanish, she was ranting over her father's visit. 

I'm not impressed. 

[Guest]

On 3/10/2017 at 1:33 PM, dmc said:

I have seen Ellen in person and she looks great...she actually looks worse on the show...tired or something...maybe the makeup person

I appreciate that some people realize there's a difference between a real human and an imaginary character.  

[WhosThatGirl]

Count me as another person who doesn't get why Riggs is so into Meredith. She's hot and cold constantly and yes that makes for good tv I guess but at some point this chase period should end. In reality no one would deal with this and they've been doing this since like episode 19 of last year! It's not cute or enjoyable tv wise at all. At least not for me. Meredith isn't someone who can get away playing these games either. Her attitude is ridiculously rude to Riggs. I'm now assuming her kids live at the hospital daycare.

[Gladrags]

3 hours ago, funnygirl said:

This was essentially some sort of power play over Callie/Calzona. To be like, "Look everyone! Arizona's new girlfriend is of another nationality just like the love of her life/ex wife! #notjustwhite" 

Never did Cristina Yang ever randomly break out into Korean. And the one time Callie spoke Spanish, she was ranting over her father's visit. 

I'm not impressed. 

I never cared for Cristina, nor is my heritage Korean or Hispanic. But it is Polish, and I love homemade pierogi.

See the difference? 

[Biggie B]

I interpreted Minnick's speaking in Polish and knowing how to make pierogi as a device intended to endear her to us viewers. It could've been any language and any cuisine on earth, but it backfired on me...it just made me feel manipulated. Was I supposed to suddenly see the more "human" side of Minnick and feel that she's just a sweetie now, with a softer side behind the tough taskmaster? Didn't work for me. I'm Jewish and she could've said to Arizona, "Bubeleh, I'll come over and make you some brisket and kasha varnishkes," and it still wouldn't have changed my opinion of her.

[bikebrh]

  6 hours ago, funnygirl said:

This was essentially some sort of power play over Callie/Calzona. To be like, "Look everyone! Arizona's new girlfriend is of another nationality just like the love of her life/ex wife! #notjustwhite" 

Never did Cristina Yang ever randomly break out into Korean. And the one time Callie spoke Spanish, she was ranting over her father's visit. 

I'm not impressed. 

I never cared for Cristina, nor is my heritage Korean or Hispanic. But it is Polish, and I love homemade pierogi.

See the difference? 

Also, Yang made it quite clear to Izzie in season 1 that she doesn't speak any Asian languages beyond what is on a restaurant menu, and that being Jewish by upbringing she is more likely to speak Yiddish or Hebrew.

[bikebrh]

  On 3/10/2017 at 2:33 PM, maraleia said:

Meredith was born in 1978 and from what I've read the timeline puts the show sometime in 2018 due to the time jump after Derek's death, and what was established early in the show's run. This means her character is 40 and the actor is 47.

They were in 2018, now they are back in 2017 (there was a shot of the date on an iPad when April was coming back from maternity leave that put it at October 2016--and that was back in October 2016).  I guess we shouldn't think about it...or something?  It really annoys me when shows are sloppy like this.

Naww, I think they are still back in 2014 or 2015. It took the show 4 years to go through their first year, and ever since then, even though they have had a couple of time jumps, they have never moved in real time.

So, beyond continuity errors, I still don't think they have caught up, and they have certainly never moved ahead of real time.

[bikebrh]

  On 3/10/2017 at 9:53 AM, Greysaddict said:

I'm barely watching this show any more....but when Jackson and Warren are my two favorite characters of the episode something is wrong.  Every storyline they have going is awful and boring.  Arizona/Minnick- No; Owen/Amelia- Nope; Meredith/Riggs- who cares anymore?  I certainly don't buy that either of them do; Jo's backstory- oh wait, that was a thing?  

Everything is terrible.

Also, why is everyone acting like Meredith is supposed to be young?  She was at least 30 when the show started and it's been at least 10 years in the show's timeline, plus she has 3 kids and is a surgeon.  I appreciate that she doesn't look 30 anymore.

I have seen Ellen in person and she looks great...she actually looks worse on the show...tired or something...maybe the makeup person

Pompeo always looks better off the show. I'm pretty sure they make her look haggard on purpose.

Also, she's always been a minimum of 8 years older than Meredith. When the show started they were 28-ish, and the first year lasted 4 seasons, so Pompeo turned 40 before Meredith turned 30. Pompeo turns 48 this year, and Meredith is only in her mid to late 30's, since they've only moved about 10 years

It causes a problem when they are casting characters who are close to Meredith's age with actors that are MUCH younger. Sarah Ramirez and Jesssica Capshaw are 6 and 7 years younger, playing characters that are 2 years older. Jerrika Hinton, Sarah Drew, Jesse Williams, Kelly McCreary, Camilla Luddington, and Tessa Ferrer are all 11-17 years younger than than Pompeo, playing characters that are anywhere from same age to no more than 5 years younger.

The older they get, the bigger of a problem it will be, unless they retcon Meredith and Alex's ages somehow (Justin Chambers turns 47 this year)

[dmc]

17 hours ago, bikebrh said:

Pompeo always looks better off the show. I'm pretty sure they make her look haggard on purpose.

Also, she's always been a minimum of 8 years older than Meredith. When the show started they were 28-ish, and the first year lasted 4 seasons, so Pompeo turned 40 before Meredith turned 30. Pompeo turns 48 this year, and Meredith is only in her mid to late 30's, since they've only moved about 10 years

It causes a problem when they are casting characters who are close to Meredith's age with actors that are MUCH younger. Sarah Ramirez and Jesssica Capshaw are 6 and 7 years younger, playing characters that are 2 years older. Jerrika Hinton, Sarah Drew, Jesse Williams, Kelly McCreary, Camilla Luddington, and Tessa Ferrer are all 11-17 years younger than than Pompeo, playing characters that are anywhere from same age to no more than 5 years younger.

The older they get, the bigger of a problem it will be, unless they retcon Meredith and Alex's ages somehow (Justin Chambers turns 47 this year)

You know I think that maybe it is well I think they may make her look tired on purposethey may make her look tired on purpose

[Anela]

Earlier on, when I watched Scandal, I thought that was one good thing about all of Shonda's shows: she features "older" women (although that makes me feel like I'm ninety years old, when people use that term) - so, women over 35. They are still strong, beautiful, smart, sexy, etc. They focus on younger characters, too (HTGAWM), but not exclusively.

Not posting to argue, or anything. It was just a thought I had earlier. *edit. And when I was spending a lot of time in the hospital, a 90-year-old married couple seemed to have more stamina than me, as they spent a few weeks visiting their son, who had heart surgery. They were there all day, and when I finally dropped off for about twenty minutes, at the end of a very long day, the man said, "it takes it out of you." They were *so* lovely. And they stayed all day, until the evening, every day. So I shouldn't even use 90 in the way that I did. :)

Edited March 13, 2017 by Anela

[Sarnia]

On 11/03/2017 at 4:37 AM, funnygirl said:

But just like after killing a kid and leaving her resident hanging while she runs off to cry in the attendings lounge, she will evade any real repercussions from this, too. 

Oh my god, this, so much! Her teaching method lead to the death of a child! The child died because of Minnick. I really can't understand that there is no follow-up on this, nor repercussions for Minnick, and I understand even less that her method could still be considered as "working". A child died, who shouldn't have died. How is that not a problem?

[hks]

Things I have no time for:

Riggs and Meredith .   I don't dislike Meredith.  But could somebody please explain to me what Riggs sees in her?   Sure they had sex in a car. And maybe she really rocked his world.  But he is a grown ass man and I would hope that one night of sex, even good sex in a car isn't enough to make you fall in love.  Especially if the woman in question is habitually dismissive, stand offish and snotty to you.   It completely baffles me.  They have no chemistry.

Amelia.  I won't even add Owen to this mess because the man is blameless, imo. 

Minnick.  Really show?  So everyone is giving her a tongue bath and she's winning people over?  Really? Just like that?   The lack of any fall out of her part in that child dying is ridiculous.  Even if it was something that could have happened to any surgeon, her inability to actually teach Stephanie something as simple as how to deal with it should at least have Steph looking at her as a fraud.  I mean, Steph and Minnick haven't even had a scene together since then, but we are get a scene of Steph praising her?  GTFO!

Minnick and Arizona: shudder.  No chemistry.

Karev and Riggs:  This "fight" was such a transparent, contrived thing that it practically insults our intelligence.  No way would Karev not have at least considered transplant as an option for that kid instead of rejecting it out of hand.  We've seen Alex weigh options before when it comes to trying to make a decision on how to do treatment.  This was ridiculous an in service to the terrible Riggs/Mer romance.

Catherine's mentoring April. If Catherine is actually seriously mentoring April on the up and up then it is not in keeping with her character and it is just as contrived as Alex & Riggs fighting.

Things I am here for:

Catherine Manipulating April. Not because I dislike April necessarily, but because it is more in line with what Catherine would do.  And frankly it is more interesting.  I could see Catherine keeping April close in order to try one day have some influence over Harriet, especially if April and Jackson really do part ways.

Maggie Adulting. I think we've had two eps in a row where Maggie actually felt more like a chief than a Dougie Howser.

Jackson having a storyline. One that doesn't revolve around his marriage or non-marriage to April.

Oh! I agree with all of this. Particularly regarding Amelia. I need her to be gone. Forever. Owen doesn't really bug me - and I enjoyed his storyline with Riggs, but OMG I need Amelia to leave and never, ever come back. Also Minnick - she's the worst and her thing with Arizona is so awful and lazily written.

[AzraelKay]

On ‎3‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 0:03 AM, KaveDweller said:

Yeah, but that doesn't seem to fit with the original timeline. Meredith had taken a few years (5?) before Med school, so that would have put her over 30 when the show started. And more than 5 years had passed by the time Maggie showed up.

Understanding time on this show is pointless though.

It's so weird the way they had her method lead to a little boy dying, and then followed it up with absolutely no reaction from anybody. No one who's questioning her position is bringing this up when arguing against her? Are we supposed to think that since she cried after all is forgiven and excused?

 

I think it works [as well as any thing does on this crazy timeline].  Assuming Mer graduated college at 21 [as I did], then took 5 years off, she could've started med school at 26.  Med school is 4 years, which would put her right at 30 when she started her residency and the show started with them all being interns [first year of residency].  How old that would Mer the character now, I've go no clue because I think the first 3 seasons were one year, but then after Derek died, there was a time jump ... I have NO idea how long it supposedly has been since their first year of residency.