S01.E02: Serious Mothering

[anniebird]

13 hours ago, CleoCaesar said:

I always yell "BETWEEN YOU AND ME" when I hear it, which is pretty much all the time. People are terrified of the word "me" and substitute "I" to sound smart, when 9 out of 10 it's just plain incorrect.

I'm with you on that. They also say "whomever" when, 90% of the time "whoever" is the correct word.

[mochamajesty]

2 hours ago, Blakeston said:

Do you mean Abigail (Madeline's older daughter) has no chill? I would agree. Especially considering how easy a mark her mother is.

"You're on birth control, but you say you've never had sex? Sure, that sounds plausible! Just please talk to me before that future day when you lose your virginity."

Yep, Abigail.   I went back and edited - thanks!

 

Yeah, Madeline came off as naïve.  As soon as Abigail said, "I'm not having sex." I knew she was lying. I wonder if Bonnie lets her and whoever the lucky guy is 'hang out' at her house.

Nathan is a 'landscaper', which, to these people, means that he is  the help. Ed was quick to throw that one in LOL.

Nathan is an a**hole, period.  What did he expect Ed to say?  "Yeah, she's a bitch." 

I am curious though. If Nathan is a landscaper, what was he doing during his marriage to Madeline?  He was gone all the time - doing what? Or, rather, who?  And this is a rhetorical question. If you have read the book, do not answer. Thanks. 

And I am cringing at all of the grammar-Nazi talk.  

Edited February 27, 2017 by mochamajesty

[WhosThatGirl]

I'm not much of a grammar person unless I have to be  so those things pass right by me. 

I'm kind of sad for Madeline that Abigail likes Bonnie so much, only because it really must hurt. I guess Bonnie is cool and free sprinted and all that but there seems to be a lack of loyalty towards her own mother. And from what Madeline says- and yes she may be an unreliable narrator for her side of the story- he was hardly around and I've gotten the vibe he cheated on her. Maybe with Bonnie. Maybe with others. Either way it's strange that the daughter doesn't take that into account. I just feel like there has to be more with Bonnie overextending politeness towards Madealine in the yoga studio and in episode 1 about the play if she's just a new stepmom. There's more to that story I'm sure.

Also yes what did Nathan think Ed was going to say when they were talking? Nathan seems like a real jerk, from what we've seen and heard. And like I said I know Madealine is an unreliable narrator because it happened to her but some of what she says must be true.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

17 minutes ago, WhosThatGirl said:

I know Madealine is an unreliable narrator because it happened to her but some of what she says must be true

We know that Madeline is telling the truth about Nathan being a shitty husband/father to Madeline/Abigail because when Ed brought up to Nathan several of the things we heard Madeline say about Nathan (like that he wasn't around for Abigail when she was Skye's age), Nathan admitted it was true. I think Madeline can get heated but we haven't seen her outright lie (heh, despite the name of the show!).

As for the way Renata pronounces Madeline's name, that might be Renata trying to be pretentious or passive aggressively bitchy (both very realistic possibilities) but it may also be that she knew another Madeline who pronounced her name with a long I. My sister had a friend named Genevieve who she had known since elementary school and she pronounced it Zhan-vee-ev so that's how we all pronounced it. Years later, I had a work meeting scheduled with someone named Genevieve. The meeting was set up online so I didn't actually speak with her until the actual meeting. When she arrived, I greeted her using the pronunciation I was familiar with but it turned out that she pronounced her name Jen-uh-veev. Whoops. I apologized profusely. 

[iMonrey]

Quote

Wikipedia says 7 episodes, yeah.  What a disappointment. I assumed 10.

I'm sure Reese Witherspoon and Nicole Kidman don't work cheap. Seven was probably all HBO could afford.

Quote

It's a running theme in the book that people always get Amabella's name wrong. My hubby and I made sure we didn't give our child a name she would hate us for later.

Having an unusual name can really give a kid a complex, speaking from experience. You can never just say "Hi, I'm so-and-so" and that's the end of it. You know you're going to have to repeat it, and spell it, and explain it, people are always going to pronounce it wrong when they're looking at it. It gets to the point where you dread telling people your name or giving it for a form or something.

[MV713]

3 hours ago, LucyHoneychrrch said:

and her smackdown of Bonnie about the Planned Parenthood trip was so righteously epic I was literally cheering for her.

Me too but if that was me, I would have gone a bit more ballistic!

[dhilde85]

Abigail knows how much Madeline hates Bonnie, so she had no problem telling her the truth. If she wanted to lie about the BC she could have- I think she just loves to push Madeline's buttons. 

I love the Madeline character and the way Reese portrays her. She's so outspoken and basically everything I'm not, so maybe that is why, but I just admire people like that.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

1 minute ago, iMonrey said:

I'm sure Reese Witherspoon and Nicole Kidman don't work cheap. Seven was probably all HBO could afford.

Having an unusual name can really give a kid a complex, speaking from experience. You can never just say "Hi, I'm so-and-so" and that's the end of it. You know you're going to have to repeat it, and spell it, and explain it, people are always going to pronounce it wrong when they're looking at it. It gets to the point where you dread telling people your name or giving it for a form or something.

I just saw it happen last night on the Oscars. One of the people on the tour bus who was brought in to the show was named Yewelry. Jimmy Kimmel asked her to repeat her name and she gave what I could tell was a lifelong response: "Yes, Yewelry, rhymes with jewelry." I know parents think that an unusual name is a gift but as someone who has an uncommon (but not unusual) name, it's usually just a pain in the ass. Because Amabella looks and sounds like Annabella, you know she is in for a lifetime of being called Annabella. 

[Mabinogia]

1 hour ago, archer1267 said:

My interpretation of her backing away from her mom and stepdad hugging was that she knew it was a private moment - and possibly rare, given the lack of affection between them previously - and didn't want to intrude.

That was my interpretation. It never crossed my mind to think she and Ed might have anything going on. Yikes! I think she just realizes things aren't great with Ed and mom right now and let them have their moment.

39 minutes ago, WhosThatGirl said:

I'm kind of sad for Madeline that Abigail likes Bonnie so much, only because it really must hurt.

I did really like that Abigail tried to explain, Bonnie is a friend but Madeline is and will always he her mother. I thought that was a nice moment, and showed that Abigail isn't anti-Madeline just because she likes Bonnie.

Though the birth control thing was WAY out of line. That just makes a bad situation even worse. Bad call Bonnie. Really, really bad call

[dmc]

1 hour ago, mochamajesty said:

Yep, Abigail.   I went back and edited - thanks!

 

Yeah, Madeline came off as naïve.  As soon as Abigail said, "I'm not having sex." I knew she was lying. I wonder if Bonnie lets her and whoever the lucky guy is 'hang out' at her house.

Nathan is a 'landscaper', which, to these people, means that he is  the help. Ed was quick to throw that one in LOL.

Nathan is an a**hole, period.  What did he expect Ed to say?  "Yeah, she's a bitch." 

I am curious though. If Nathan is a landscaper, what was he doing during his marriage to Madeline?  He was gone all the time - doing what? Or, rather, who?  And this is a rhetorical question. If you have read the book, do not answer. Thanks. 

And I am cringing at all of the grammar-Nazi talk.  

I believed Abigail.  She seems to revel in displeasing her mother and if she were to come clean...what could Madeleine really do?  I think she was just be prepared

[GinnyMars]

11 hours ago, WhosThatGirl said:

I have been having a lot of questions while rewatching now. Like why Amabella was concerned with the stuffed animal liking to be hugged-unless it was foreshadowing for the kissing incident.. but I don't know..., why one of the people being interviewed said Ziggy was an off child? I know we the viewers saw him sleepwalking but in public he's been a nice kid? 

Oooh, I know this one! Actually, that black dude (do we know who he is yet? Does it matter who the members of the Greek chorus are?) didn't say Ziggy was off! Here's the dialogue in question:

Quote

00:11:13,924 --> 00:11:15,840    Does Harry want to be hugged?
00:11:15,884 --> 00:11:17,509    Why, yes. Harry loves hugs.

[Amabella and Ziggy exchange a look, and we move on to the Greek chorus]

00:11:19,471 --> 00:11:21,096    Gabrielle: I mean, look, let's face it. Amabella picked that Ziggy out of a lineup and she was unwavering.
00:11:24,142 --> 00:11:26,935    Black dude: The kid was off. I'll leave it at that.

Amabella's been creeping me out since the beginning, so I'd be inclined to believe he was describing her instead!

Edited February 27, 2017 by GinnyMars

[Dakisela]

10 minutes ago, GinnyMars said:

Oooh, I know this one! Actually, that black dude (do we know who he is yet? Does it matter who the members of the Greek chorus are?) didn't say Ziggy was off! Here's the dialogue in question:

Amabella's been creeping me out since the beginning, so I'd be inclined to believe he was describing her instead!

I also took it to mean he was referring to Ammabella.

[WhosThatGirl]

I thought maybe he could be referring to Amabella but then I wasn't sure. Amabella seems old to me as well.

[hoodooznoodooz]

So I hope if/when Renata is mispronouncing "Madeline," Madeline is calling Renata's daughter "Annabella." Because I have passive aggressive tendencies, too. 

[eelpout]

On 2/26/2017 at 9:58 AM, Ms Blue Jay said:

Wikipedia says 7 episodes, yeah.  What a disappointment. I assumed 10.

I actually applaud this. Don't stretch it out just because it's what American productions tend to do. It's why I enjoy a lot of BBC television.

[WhosThatGirl]

6 minutes ago, eelpout said:

I actually applaud this. Don't stretch it out just because it's what American productions tend to do. It's why I enjoy a lot of BBC television.

I agree. As of late, I seem to enjoy more anthology series.  One season and done with that story and then there's a whole new thing next year. I find that too many shows just keep going because contracts have been written but they seem to be running out of stories to tell but now they've reached a point where they can't stop the show and it stops making sense.  I find I like the shows that have a different story the following year. I much prefer this tv now.

Some shows can make it work but it's becoming rare for me and I find when I hear most shows are coming with their final season I let out a "well, makes sense".

[debbie311]

I enjoyed the book and am enjoying the series as well.  In the book, the angry sex between Chrystal and Perry is alluded to and I was a little shocked by the graphic sex in episode two.  Especially the scene at the end (the phone/tablet sex). I think in the book more is left to your imagination and because it is HBO, they have to make it sexy for good ratings.

A nit-pick: The setting is Monterey and it was mentioned having to go to the nearest VA hospital, in Sacramento.  There are closer VA hospitals in Palo Alto and San Francisco.  Sacramento would be quite a trek.

[stagmania]

3 hours ago, Blakeston said:

I really hope Ed doesn't turn out to be a creep, because one "seemingly doting father/husband turns out to be an abusive monster" storyline is enough for me.

I definitely don't get psychosexual creep vibes from him at all. If anything, I could see them going the route of the aggrieved "nice guy" who snaps, but I think his violence would be directed at Nathan, not his wife or kids. And I kind of hope that's not where this is headed, because that's a tired trope.

[clb1016]

1 hour ago, eelpout said:

I actually applaud this. Don't stretch it out just because it's what American productions tend to do. It's why I enjoy a lot of BBC television.

Exactly.  American productions start off with an arbitrary number of episodes and then write to fill the required number of hours.  British productions write enough to tell the story--no more, no less.

[Llywela]

3 hours ago, WhosThatGirl said:

 I just feel like there has to be more with Bonnie overextending politeness towards Madealine in the yoga studio and in episode 1 about the play if she's just a new stepmom. There's more to that story I'm sure.

If Nathan and Bonnie have a child the same age as Chloe, Bonnie isn't that new of a stepmother to Abigail - she's been around a good 6/7 years now (how old are these kids meant to be?). So these tensions aren't new, they'll have been building for quite some time, but I guess they are escalating just now because a) Abigail has reached an age where she is rebelling against her mother, and b) Madeline and Bonnie are thrown together more because of Chloe and Skye now being in the same class in school, after attending different kindergartens.

I don't get any creepy vibes off Ed at all.

I will add, as a Brit, that we have our fair share of productions that get dragged out long after they should have ended, but what we don't tend to have are the very long season orders you have in the US, not because our writers are more sensible but because our television seasons are structured very differently, which lends itself to much more concise shows.

Edited February 27, 2017 by Llywela

[Lemons]

3 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I'm sure Reese Witherspoon and Nicole Kidman don't work cheap. Seven was probably all HBO could afford.

Having an unusual name can really give a kid a complex, speaking from experience. You can never just say "Hi, I'm so-and-so" and that's the end of it. You know you're going to have to repeat it, and spell it, and explain it, people are always going to pronounce it wrong when they're looking at it. It gets to the point where you dread telling people your name or giving it for a form or something.

They could always have dropped Nicole Kidman and replaced her with a real actress, save some money, better program.

With the name "amabelle", she can always tell people to call her Amy when she gets older.  Really annoy her mother.

[bourbon]

17 hours ago, CleoCaesar said:

I always yell "BETWEEN YOU AND ME" when I hear it, which is pretty much all the time. People are terrified of the word "me" and substitute "I" to sound smart, when 9 out of 10 it's just plain incorrect.

YEEEESSS! I also hate it in things like "Give it to John or myself." Gaah! There are only a couple of times "myself" is appropriate in grammar, and that's not one of them. (Cringe away!)

Still loving this. I love a show that tears my sympathies. What a terrific character Madeline is. One minute, I am absolutely in her corner re: Bonnie or Renate, the next minute she has me shaking my head. Pulling her daughter from Amabella's party is one things, organizing a DIsney on Ice party to conflict with the party is a whole 'nother level of vindictive. 

Edited February 27, 2017 by bourbon

[Armchair Critic]

17 hours ago, Auntie Velvet said:

I don't know if Ed (per the recap) is the murderer, but I do wonder if he's the reason Abigail's on birth control. At the end, when she came downstairs into that little den and was caught short by the sight of her mother with him

I hope not but it did seem like something was off also in the way she was watching her mother and Ed when they were talking outside.

[iMonrey]

Quote

Exactly.  American productions start off with an arbitrary number of episodes and then write to fill the required number of hours.  British productions write enough to tell the story--no more, no less.

It's also hard for me to grasp why people think seven hours is an insufficient amount of time to translate a book to a television show. Movies do it all the time in about two hours or less. I think if you can't tell your story in seven hours you're maybe obsessing a bit over the minutia that can enrich a book but be a real drag on a visual presentation.

[lovinbob]

18 hours ago, CleoCaesar said:

I always yell "BETWEEN YOU AND ME" when I hear it, which is pretty much all the time. People are terrified of the word "me" and substitute "I" to sound smart, when 9 out of 10 it's just plain incorrect.

 

13 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I'm glad it's not just me! It's one of my pet peeves (along with the ever popular "please see Bob or myself"). It bothers me more on tv than in real life because when someone at work sends an email with incorrect grammar, it's usually just the fault of that particular individual. But when it's on tv, multiple people have seen the error and NO ONE CORRECTED IT. No one in the writers' room, none of the actors involved in the scene, no one present at the table read/rehearsals/actual shooting realized this was wrong? Ugh.

You are both my soul mates, as is the other poster upthread who mentioned "myself." But CleoCaesar, I agree particularly about the intention to seem smart. Ugh, this drives me insane.

Quote

I'm not sure if this is the case, but a lot of elementary schools have rules about birthday party invitations, especially in the lower grades. Some schools say that you have to invite everyone in the entire class. Some schools won't let you distribute invitations at school. I wouldn't be surprised if the school on this show has similar rules, which might be why Madeline was so surprised that Ziggy was purposely excluded. Realistically she should have known from Renata's behavior the day before that she was going to hold a grudge though.

Yes, this is the rule in my child's private school, and it is a good one. Renata is an asshole who was trying to make a stink through those invitations. With that said, Madeline is also an asshole, if a more lovable one. That anyone should intentionally, consciously perpetuate the mommy wars (SAHM v. work outside the home) enrages me. 

[windtrix]

I am very impressed with Reese. She really is a versatile actress. I read the book and I think she is portraying the character very well. On the other hand, Nicole Kidman is a big bag of blah.

[gesundheit]

If I hadn't read the book, I'd be on the edge of my seat for the whodunnit aspect of the show. As it is, I'm enjoying the superb casting and wonderful acting by everyone. Reese Witherspoon is fantastic. She makes Madeline unbearable, sympathetic, hilarious, and completely human.

 

  On 2/26/2017 at 7:34 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Madeline gets demerits for saying "between you and I." I hear this mistake all too often on tv so I blame the writers, the actors, and the director because NONE of them caught this error and fixed it. UGH.

I always yell "BETWEEN YOU AND ME" when I hear it, which is pretty much all the time. People are terrified of the word "me" and substitute "I" to sound smart, when 9 out of 10 it's just plain incorrect.

As a writer, I'm going to defend the probability that this is a choice. My characters have incorrect grammar all the time and it's deliberate. People say "between you and I" a lot and, quite frankly, Madeline actually seems like just the type!

[Ms Blue Jay]

4 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

As for the way Renata pronounces Madeline's name, that might be Renata trying to be pretentious or passive aggressively bitchy (both very realistic possibilities) but it may also be that she knew another Madeline who pronounced her name with a long I. My sister had a friend named Genevieve who she had known since elementary school and she pronounced it Zhan-vee-ev so that's how we all pronounced it. Years later, I had a work meeting scheduled with someone named Genevieve. The meeting was set up online so I didn't actually speak with her until the actual meeting. When she arrived, I greeted her using the pronunciation I was familiar with but it turned out that she pronounced her name Jen-uh-veev. Whoops. I apologized profusely. 

Ugh,  I've done that. It's so embarrassing (for me).  The exact same unique name, spelled the same, pronounced differently by 2 different people; usually one is using the 'real' pronunciation and the other is using a 'Canadianized' pronunciation to dumb it down for us.   

3 hours ago, eelpout said:

I actually applaud this. Don't stretch it out just because it's what American productions tend to do. It's why I enjoy a lot of BBC television.

And I am the opposite.  Give me 50 episodes a season, I don't care, which is why I lamented the shorter season length.  I've enjoyed BBC television but I'm always good with more production.  I don't care for short books, either.

Quote

Having an unusual name can really give a kid a complex, speaking from experience.

On the other hand of the spectrum, I had a very popular name growing up which was kind of annoying and made me feel boring.  Now as an adult, I quite like it.  But I personally like unusual names -- probably because I haven't had to deal with one.  I always feel sad when people "Canadianize" their originally given names (sorry non-Canadians, you know what I mean); I wish they wouldn't, but it is often to their benefit when they do so, so I understand.  I don't mind Amabella at all.  Or even Persephone.

Jimmy Kimmel made himself look very ignorant at the Oscars.  I don't care to dumb things down for people like that, personally.

Edited February 27, 2017 by Ms Blue Jay

[Ms Blue Jay]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

It's also hard for me to grasp why people think seven hours is an insufficient amount of time to translate a book to a television show.  Movies do it all the time in about two hours or less.

There is a reason why people often crow the book is better.  I'd be happy with a 15 or 20 episode season to tell this book's story, personally.  On Goodreads this is listed as 460 pages.  That's a rate of 65 pages an episode...... 

Edited February 27, 2017 by Ms Blue Jay

[truecrystal]

14 hours ago, Llywela said:

Nicole Kidman I'm finding less convincing as Celeste, and I can't decide if it's the acting or just that she's a more difficult character to read and like. 

Quote

 

 

For me it's definitely the acting. It's weird because I think she gets the quieter moments right: the hesitancy to speak up; the tendency to zone out. But she and AS have this weird chemistry. It's not so much angsty, sexy, hate-fuck-y, but more like they just met in a workshop and are in rehearsal. Their scenes together just fall completely flat and Nicole gets the worst of it because I think her behavior is supposed to be more conflicted.

This episode was much better overall and my favorite scene was the Ed/Nick scene. The dialogue was awesome and told us so much about both of them and their relationship with Madeline. Talk about subtext becoming text.

Edited February 28, 2017 by truecrystal

[CleoCaesar]

2 hours ago, gesundheit said:

As a writer, I'm going to defend the probability that this is a choice. My characters have incorrect grammar all the time and it's deliberate. People say "between you and I" a lot and, quite frankly, Madeline actually seems like just the type!

 

I actually do agree with this. It is a pet peeve of mine when people say it, but it is very possible that it was intentional on the writers' part.

[Cardie]

I kept thinking Renata's daughter was named Amberbella, so Amabella doesn't seem so bad in retrospect! I too wondered whether one of Celeste's twins had copied his father's erotic violence with Amabella. Perhaps she couldn't identify which twin so pointed to Ziggy when pressed. Because the kids are proxies in the parents' warfare, it seemed odd to me that the twins were not getting much screen time in the school scenes; perhaps that was to obscure that one of them was the culprit.

[Mabinogia]

15 minutes ago, Cardie said:

Perhaps she couldn't identify which twin so pointed to Ziggy when pressed.

Even before I thought it was one of the twins I assumed Amabella picked Ziggy because it was easier to blame the new kid. Only for a moment did I think maybe Ziggy did it. But that seems too obvious. So I'm going with a twin, because of their abusive asshole father. I hope Celeste finds out it was one of them and that makes her realize that her relationship with Perry is hurting more than just her. She might actually leave him for her children's sake if not her own.

[dhilde85]

I watch the episodes with the captions on (my ears are clogged from a sinus infection) and when I saw "Amabella" I was like, wait, really? I thought the captions were messed up and they really meant "Annabella." 

I have an uncommon name- it's the feminine version of a male name and people still mispronounce it/get confused, but I'm pretty used to it.

Kimmel was obnoxious with the name thing. Plus Mahershala Ali's full name is Mahershalalhashbaz! 

Edited February 28, 2017 by dhilde85

[chocolatine]

I have an uncommon name by virtue of being an immigrant - if only my parents had known that I'd end up living in the US! I'm so used to people mispronouncing/misspelling my name that it surprises me when someone gets it right.

[Eyes High]

3 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

On the other hand of the spectrum, I had a very popular name growing up which was kind of annoying and made me feel boring.  Now as an adult, I quite like it.  But I personally like unusual names -- probably because I haven't had to deal with one.  I always feel sad when people "Canadianize" their originally given names (sorry non-Canadians, you know what I mean); I wish they wouldn't, but it is often to their benefit when they do so, so I understand.  I don't mind Amabella at all.  Or even Persephone.

Research has shown us that children with unusual first names are more prone to behavioural and other problems. Children with unusual first names or unconventional spellings of normal first names are more likely to be perceived as less intelligent by their teachers than their more conventionally-named peers, regardless of ability. People with unusual names are less likely to be perceived as attractive, successful, or kind than otherwise. Girls with very feminine names (like Amabella) are less likely to study math and science after the age of 16. First names really do matter.

Ironically, Renata, who is so obsessed with status and who has made such a show of concern for her daughter's wellbeing, may have done a disservice to her daughter's prospects for success in life by naming her Amabella as opposed to, say, Katherine. (Not that Ziggy is any better.) 

Edited February 28, 2017 by Eyes High

[chocolatine]

1 minute ago, Eyes High said:

Girls with very feminine names (like Amabella) are less likely to study math and science at university.

Which is ironic, because Renata, being the tech industry heavyweight that she is (PayPal board of directors and all), must be really good at math and science. You'd think she'd want the same for her daughter.

[Mabinogia]

I'd rather go through life as Amabella, cause I could at least shorten it to Bella than Ziggy. WTF names their kid Ziggy? All I can think of if Ziggy from the funny pages. That is not something you want to saddle your kid with.

I just looked it up. I didn't realize Amabella was an actual name. I thought it was something Renata made up to be pretentious. lol I just feel bad for the kid because she is going to spend the rest of her life correcting people on how to say her name. It might be best to just change it to Annabella when she's old enough. lol

[CofCinci]

Pauly D from the Jersey Shore named his daughter Amabella too.  Guess it is a thing.

[isiscloud]

Quote

 

 I don't know if Ed (per the recap) is the murderer, but I do wonder if he's the reason Abigail's on birth control. At the end, when she came downstairs into that little den and was caught short by the sight of her mother with him, it's reasonable to think she would have known HE was down there. But from the way the scene was set wouldn't have expected her mother to be there, alone or otherwise.

Quote

You think Abigail is having a sexual relationship with Ed, and that's why she needed birth control? Wow. I didn't pick up on that at all.

 

I didn't think that. Ed seems like a good guy who really wants to be there for Maddy. However, that doesn't mean anything. In a way, I think we're seeing their relationship from a different POV, that they really do love each other, and we're just starting in on them being together for a while and things are going crazy for Maddy with the play and seeing Nathan everywhere. Madeline is obviously seems very confident, but is totally not confident, and Nathan & Bonnie going everywhere, their daughter is even at Chloe's school (loved that background scene when Chloe & Skye were explaining their relationship to Ziggy) and yoga, and it's just too much. Seeing Nathan happy with someone who isn't her but not having to deal with all other stuff like being a single (full-time) parent like she had to. 

Quote

That private elementary school leaves a lot to be desired.  Now we have the teacher planning some family tree project for the kids, which should ramp up Ziggy's anxiety and anyone else from a non-traditional family.  

Yeah, I don't have kids, but I thought schools had done away with at least the blood testing. Some friends' kids did have to do the genealogy tree, although I would think that it would have to be approved by parents. 

Although I'd be totally annoyed by Madeline's talking during yoga, it was pretty funny. 

I feel Perry's annoyance that he wasn't told about the previous day's orientation wasn't fully out of line, especially if he was around for it, since he stayed home for the first day. Did not give him the right to hit Celeste, though. They need some time apart and lots of therapy. 

I thought the hippo was going to be a "show me where you were touched" things. Celeste's twins seemed older than the other kids in the class. Maybe they were slightly older due to their birthdate? 

The opening montage reminds me of the opening montage from Santa Barbara soap opera from back in the day - not exactly, of course, but the idea of the scenic views. 

[tennisgurl]

So far, I am really enjoying this show and all its dysfunctional characters. I can see how some people were comparing it to The Affair, but, to me, its giving me more of a Broadchurch vibe if they focused more on the soap opera, and less on the murder. Beautiful setting by the sea? Seemingly idyllic community filled with dark secrets? All those secrets possibly culminating in murder? Not exactly the same, but I see it.

Geez, it never even occurred to me that Ed could be sleeping with Abigail. I just thought she was giving her mom and step dad some space after seeing them having troubles earlier. We already have Perry as our "nice on the outside, abusive on the inside" guy, we don't need another one. And, really, I just don't get that vibe from him. He isn't creepy, but he isn't so innocuous that he would be a HUGE shock if he had a darker side. I really liked the conversation between Nathan and Ed, although now I have a few questions. Is Nathan a landscaper? Then did he and Madeline live a poorer lifestyle before? Or do one or both of them have family money? Did Madeline have the big job before she and Nathan split and she got with Ed? I have always gotten the feeling that Bonnie and Nathan had an affair, and that's one of the reasons Madeline dislikes her and them so much. But no one has actually mentioned it, so maybe not.

I'm pretty convinced that it was one of Celeste's kids who strangled Amabella, after seeing their dad abusing Celeste. Maybe they got confused and think that's how men treat women they like, after seeing their parents dynamic. If that's the case, holy shit get those kids therapy yesterday. Perry and Celeste have a really messed up relationship. They really do go from happy go lucky to violent in a flash.

I kind of like unusual names, especially if there's a story behind it (like its a cultural thing or a family name, or has a cool backstory) and its not just weird for the sake of being weird. However, I do feel the pain of kids having to tell people how to pronounce or spell their names forever, and there is a lot of stigma attached to certain odd names. My name isn't really super unusual or hard to pronounce, but it is an unusual spelling, at least where I've grown up, so I've basically given up on correcting people on how to spell my name, unless its something important.

I felt bad for Chloe and Amabella, getting stuck in their moms weird birthday power games.

Edited February 28, 2017 by tennisgurl

[Ms Blue Jay]

3 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Research has shown us that children with unusual first names are more prone to behavioural and other problems. Children with unusual first names or unconventional spellings of normal first names are more likely to be perceived as less intelligent by their teachers than their more conventionally-named peers, regardless of ability. People with unusual names are less likely to be perceived as attractive, successful, or kind than otherwise. Girls with very feminine names (like Amabella) are less likely to study math and science after the age of 16. First names really do matter. 

I think generations become more open-minded and tolerant with time.  Yes, it has been proven if you have an "ethnic-sounding" name in Ontario, Canada for instance and you try to apply for a job, you get less chances for an interview because racism exists, but I am not pro-people erasing their culture under any circumstance.  I guess I am an idealist.  I'm sure thin, pretty people also get better chances in life than fat, ugly ones but I also have an idealized view of the world where I hope people will become more tolerant of difference, in all circumstances.  To bring this back to weird names.  Not everyone is pro-conformity.  Everyone in society having similar names because we're so scared of difference--that idea makes me pretty sad.  Barack Obama did pretty well with his.

Edited February 28, 2017 by Ms Blue Jay

[Rowan]

I'm getting the feeling that Abigail is a little jealous of Madeline's relationships with Ed and Chloe. The scene where she seems to be connecting with her Mom after they had the college tiff and little Chloe comes in at the end and begins playing piano, she seemed to resent her intrusion as she backed away. I got the resentful vibe again as she watched Ed and Madeline dance. I think she's a little jealous of those bonds. 

Edited February 28, 2017 by Rowan

[Rosebud1970]

On February 25, 2017 at 8:46 AM, lovinbob said:

I was not really crazy about Big Little Lies as a book but this production is really selling me on the story. The actors are all really good. 

The meeting between Nathan and Ed intrigued me. I don't remember that from the book. I didn't really get the idea that they were actually threatening each other till the very end of the scene, and it surprised me how antagonistic they were with each other, but it made sense in that even though Ed didn't really support Madeline's behavior, he had his wife's back. And I guess if he feels that Madeline is still hung up on Nathan, he would resent the hell out of him. 

With that said I really struggle with Madeline's behavior toward Bonnie. I understand her frustrations but her public, dramatic confrontations are really distasteful.

Oh, I dunno. If my ex-husband's younger, hotter second wife had interfered in the relationship between me and my daughter (Bonnie is Abigail's stepmother) and driven her to Planned Parenthood without my knowledge or consent, I'd be pretty exercised about it. Had that been me, Bonnie would have been lucky to escape with a tongue lashing.

And then, Bonnie passively-aggressively complained to Nathan, who tried to big foot Ed into telling Madeline to back off. Big nope.

[scrb]

Maybe I missed it but did they reveal the victim?

Is Celeste in denial about being battered, telling Maddy that they get angry and then have sex, which they both like?  She gave up her career as a big time lawyer for what she's trying to tell herself is some rough foreplay?

[FemmyV]

17 hours ago, mochamajesty said:

18 hours ago, teddysmom said:

I wondered if Celeste went along with the sex because she knew it would keep him from hurting her further. She did seem kind of into it, tho.

Their relationship is confusing.

It's not the 'typical' domestic violence situation - where she cowers in fear of the abusive husband.  Celeste slapped him back - hard.  She only stopped when he slammed her into the wall.  I think it's because a slap is one thing but at the end of the day, she would lose in any purely physical confrontation.

Agreed. When the sexual tension came into play, initially, I thought Perry was going to rape Celeste, but it became apparent she had the choice to leave the room, or not, and chose to stay. AS is perfect for this role, he's like Eric (True Blood) without the fangs. Menacing and vulnerable in the same episode, and Kidman plays well off of it.

I am not a book reader, but have been in the spoilers thread. I want Ziggy to be innocent, so it's easy to point out that any number of child abuse victims will purposely finger the wrong person, if they feel the consequences of being honest will be worse.

Renata? What. A. Bitch. I'm glad Madeleine stepped in .. what Renata was trying to do to Ziggy was isolate him even more, socially. It's a war tactic, a little much for a 5 yo.

I like Ed. I like that he is a nice guy without being a doormat. From what I've seen so far, Madeleine is a lucky, lucky woman on that front. And stepmom was waaaay out of line for taking Abigail to PP without discussing it with her.

Edited February 28, 2017 by FemmyV

[ElectricBoogaloo]

When Abigail saw Madeline and Ed at the end of the episode and she went upstairs, I thought she was just trying not to intrude. Most teenagers don't want to see their parents be touchy feely (if I had walked downstairs and seen my parents slowdancing when I was Abigail's age, I would have turned right around and gone back upstairs silently too), but knowing that she saw them fighting earlier in the episode I thought that she was mostly trying to be respectful and not interrupt while they made up. Even though Ed is her step-father, not her bio dad, most kids prefer when the parents they are living with get along. It's rare to find a kid who actively enjoys living in a tense household, so I think that Abigail wanted to give them the space to reconcile.

I'd rather go through life as Amabella, cause I could at least shorten it to Bella than Ziggy. WTF names their kid Ziggy? All I can think of if Ziggy from the funny pages. That is not something you want to saddle your kid with.

The principal said Ziggy's full name when he called all the parents into the office. Was it Ziegfeld? Maybe he could go by Fred? Or maybe he has a middle name that isn't quite as weird? I thought of Ziggy Marley, which is definitely cooler than Ziggy from the comics!

Quote

The setting is Monterey and it was mentioned having to go to the nearest VA hospital, in Sacramento.  There are closer VA hospitals in Palo Alto and San Francisco.  Sacramento would be quite a trek.

I KNOW! When she said that, I immediately thought what, why would someone have to go all the way to Sacramento? There are several VA facilities between Monterey and Sacramento (I checked!).

[mochamajesty]

2 hours ago, FemmyV said:

Agreed. When the sexual tension came into play, initially, I thought Perry was going to rape Celeste, but it became apparent she had the choice to leave the room, or not, and chose to stay. AS is perfect for this role, he's like Eric (True Blood) without the fangs. Menacing and vulnerable in the same episode, and Kidman plays well off of it.

I am not a book reader, but have been in the spoilers thread. I want Ziggy to be innocent, so it's easy to point out that any number of child abuse victims will purposely finger the wrong person, if they feel the consequences of being honest will be worse.

Renata? What. A. Bitch. I'm glad Madeleine stepped in .. what Renata was trying to do to Ziggy was isolate him even more, socially. It's a war tactic, a little much for a 5 yo.

I like Ed. I like that he is a nice guy without being a doormat. From what I've seen so far, Madeleine is a lucky, lucky woman on that front. And stepmom was waaaay out of line for taking Abigail to PP without discussing it with her.

 

Well, no one else mentioned child abuse specifically in regards to Amabella,  so I hope that wasn't a spoiler.

[stanleyk]

On 2/25/2017 at 8:12 PM, shireenbamfatheon said:

Something tells me one of the twin boys choked the little girl. I don't think they're as oblivious to their father's abuse of Celeste as I initially assumed, and that at least one of them, likely the scared kid who wanted to sleep with the stuffed toy, might have witnessed something and acted it out on the girl.

I thought this too, especially with the hippo-wounding mentioned later, but then decided these might be red herrings. After all, when Celeste asked them if they thought Ziggy hurt Amabelle, they quickly piped up no and that Ziggy is nice. Unless they're honest-to-god sociopaths, I'm not sure a six or seven year old would be able to answer that naturally and seemingly honestly if one of them were in fact guilty. They'd get hinky, feel guilty, try to shift the blame somehow. 

On 2/26/2017 at 4:46 PM, Razzberry said:

That private elementary school leaves a lot to be desired.  Now we have the teacher planning some family tree project for the kids, which should ramp up Ziggy's anxiety and anyone else from a non-traditional family.  What's next, DNA swabs run through CODIS?

 

I mean, for real. This supposedly great school has done at least three things that would set me off in just two episodes, and all of them are things that wouldn't be allowed at many other schools. As others have noted, many schools don't allow the distribution of invitations at school unless everyone is invited, and the family tree project is almost always a fraught project for kids in non-traditional families (like mine). Teachers continue to do it (though many are open to discussion when a parent points out that this sort of thing can be emotionally difficult for kids from different backgrounds). All that, plus the insane way the original conflict was handled in the first episode. If I were Jane, I would have moved already.

On 2/27/2017 at 4:06 AM, Llywela said:

Got to say, I'm loving Reese Witherspoon in this role. In real life, Madeline would be absolutely exhausting to know, but in the show I'm finding her really charming, even if she is incredibly high maintenance. She's so driven by her passions and insecurities - sometimes to her own detriment, as she never even stops to take a breath, never mind think, she just barrels on through, and I'm really enjoying the complexity of her relationships with just about everyone.

Nicole Kidman I'm finding less convincing as Celeste, and I can't decide if it's the acting or just that she's a more difficult character to read and like. I did really enjoy her conversation with Madeline, when she confessed to all the angry sex and Madeline just looked really appalled, so Celeste tried to make it sound better and Madeline tried to smooth it over and it was just so believably awkward. It felt like they were on the cusp of unpicking something much bigger about Celeste's marriage...but Celeste can't seem to admit to herself, even, that there is a real problem with her husband. I get so many red flags from his behaviour, and at times Celeste seems to recognise those red flags, but other times she seems to bury her head in the sand and pretend nothing's wrong.

I can't stand Renata. And I really feel for Jane.

I agree with your takes on the characters and actors: Reese Witherspoon is great, I'm on the fence with Nicole Kidman, I have a lot of empathy for Jane, and Renata is the goddamn worst. But I struggle with the portrayal of Renata. Is she just a straight-up villain or does she get to have any nuance or depth as the other characters do? Especially in this episode, she played to me like a caricature of a highly successful professional working mother: status-driven, aggressive, over-protective of her child, brittle. In the first episode there was a hint of vulnerability in her conversation with her husband, but I saw none of that this time. Now she's just in full-on insane harridan mode. It seems a bit off for what the tone of the show seems to be. By portraying the only full-time working mother on the show as a 100% horrible person whose motivations, contradictions and humanity aren't really shown, it feels like the show is buying into one of the stereotypes that perpetuates the so-called mommy wars. And I don't think it means to be, so I hope they give Renata some layers soon.

19 hours ago, archer1267 said:

Wouldn't Ed have driven her to the clinic, then? I'd really like to think that there's nothing inappropriate going on there. My interpretation of her backing away from her mom and stepdad hugging was that she knew it was a private moment - and possibly rare, given the lack of affection between them previously - and didn't want to intrude.

This was my interpretation as well. If the show goes down some of the roads some viewers are proposing, I think it would quickly become a soapy mess. I saw only that she retreated because she didn't want to interrupt them, especially when she knew they'd been fighting recently.

5 hours ago, Rosebud1970 said:

Oh, I dunno. If my ex-husband's younger, hotter second wife had interfered in the relationship between me and my daughter (Bonnie is Abigail's stepmother) and driven her to Planned Parenthood without my knowledge or consent, I'd be pretty exercised about it. Had that been me, Bonnie would have been lucky to escape with a tongue lashing.

And then, Bonnie passively-aggressively complained to Nathan, who tried to big foot Ed into telling Madeline to back off. Big nope.

Yeah, I was fully on board with Madeline's response, and with Ed's. Bonnie was way out of line - it's one thing if a teenage girl gets a friend to take her to Planned Parenthood to get birth control so her parents won't know (something I did for a friend of mine in high school!). It's a whole other kettle of fish when an adult with a quasi-parental role does this and does not talk to the parents about it. I would have reacted the same as Madeline, only with eighteen times the profanity. And while Bonnie might have realized at some level her behavior was problematic, she didn't realize it enough to stop her from bitching to Nathan as if Madeline were in the wrong. Her squishy hippie routine may be attractive, but I'm getting the idea that she's just as big a shit-stirrer as Madeline herself.

[mochamajesty]

13 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I'm not on Bonnie's side but did they ever say if she had spoken to her husband about it?  I suppose I could see doing what Bonnie did if Abigail and her father both thought it was best.  

You cannot leave the mother out of it, though.

And it's not up to Abigail - she is a minor.    Bonnie is the step mom, which means that she has no rights as far as Abigail is concerned. She needs to butt out and let Madeline and Nathan make decisions that concern Abigail.