S06.E03: American Bitch

[AmandaPanda]

Quote

Hannah has a tense meeting with Chuck Palmer, an author she once greatly admired, about the disturbing allegations swirling around him.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

FYI - you can stream this episode beginning on Friday!

Promo:

Edited February 20, 2017 by ElectricBoogaloo

[ApathyMonger]

Interview with the episode's director (SPOILERS): http://www.avclub.com/article/girls-director-richard-shepard-matthew-rhys-guest--250837

[stagmania]

Matthew Rhys! Being a creep!

I thought this was a good episode, but I'm not sure how to read it. I definitely walked away interpreting Palmer's behavior as kind of a long con to trick and humiliate Hannah (as did Sepinwall), but then the interview with the creators after indicated that they saw it as him having a genuine connection with her and being dysfunctional in how he expressed it. I didn't see that at all.

[WhosThatGirl]

Eh. I've never been a fan of Hannah alone bottle episodes the show does. With the exception being the episode when her grandmother died. So not a fan really of this and I adore Matthew Ryes.

And the ATE stopped making sense to me last season. I always feel a weird disconnect between what I see on the show and what Hannah and Judd and the writers feel they have created and put out on screen. 

I don't know. It was okay I guess? I just felt last week we were making headway on what I wanted to see in the final season and this episode made me care even less.

[chocolatine]

6 hours ago, stagmania said:

Matthew Rhys! Being a creep!

I know!!! I was worried I'd only see him as Philip Jennings in yet another disguise, but I didn't think about The Americans once while watching this.

6 hours ago, stagmania said:

I thought this was a good episode, but I'm not sure how to read it. I definitely walked away interpreting Palmer's behavior as kind of a long con to trick and humiliate Hannah (as did Sepinwall), but then the interview with the creators after indicated that they saw it as him having a genuine connection with her and being dysfunctional in how he expressed it. I didn't see that at all.

That was a head scratcher for me also. I didn't see any "genuine connection"; to me the guy was just a selfish jerk who uses women to stroke his ego (and ... other things). He would have done the same thing to any other woman. I thought the procession of women entering his building at the end signified that, no matter what he does, there will always be women willing to put themselves into a vulnerable situation with him because he's famous.

23 minutes ago, WhosThatGirl said:

Eh. I've never been a fan of Hannah alone bottle episodes the show does.

I'm usually not a fan of those either, but I thought it was really well done, and much more in character for Hannah to have this kind of encounter than the one she had with Patrick Wilson in S2.

Edited February 25, 2017 by chocolatine

[kieyra]

That was kind of a gut punch. I was uneasy the whole way through and then--sure enough, he's a creeper.

I'm not sure how deep we were supposed to read into the stuff with his daughter and her depression.

I'm not sure how his absolutely evil grin at the end could be interpreted as anything but it having been a long con.

[kathe5133]

I'm not the true target audience for "Girls", so when I see an episode that is lauded as "amazing" and I don't agree, I chalk it up to that.

But, some reviews I've seen of this episode say it's the "best one yet".  

Hardly the "best".  It seems to me the entire episode was fashioned so they could make use of the prosthetic penis.

I have seen my fair share of dicks, both real and metaphorical.  Didn't find that scene anywhere close to being shocking.

My review?

eh.........

[kieyra]

If all one takes away from the episode is that there was a prosthetic penis, I think your shock threshold may be lower than you think. :)

[Sdh1545]

Didn't love it.  And I've really enjoyed all the other standalone ones, even the Hannah ones. But this one wasn't good or deserving enough-it didn't move the story forward, or show us anything about Hannah we didn't already know. I was just annoyed that with a finite amount of episodes left, they wasted one on this-I'd rather have seen more of the others.

[LuciaMia]

Hoping there'd be a bit more than just Hannah. Curious if there'd be any follow-up with Desi. You just don't quit 20 oxys a day.

[Mindthinkr]

I will be interested to see what Hannah's take away from this meeting will be. Perhaps she will write about him again and it will be her big breakthrough. 

She threw the Roth book as tho it was tainted. I'm surprised she even considered taking it in the first place. It was the one thing that he could give her to soften her before he went in for the 'lay on my bed trick'. 

[kieyra]

38 minutes ago, Mindthinkr said:

I will be interested to see what Hannah's take away from this meeting will be. Perhaps she will write about him again and it will be her big breakthrough. 

She threw the Roth book as tho it was tainted. I'm surprised she even considered taking it in the first place. It was the one thing that he could give her to soften her before he went in for the 'lay on my bed trick'. 

Yeah, I think a lot of her choices and reactions where meant to show just how vulnerable women can be to predators.

She knowingly put herself in a private place, alone with a guy who had sexual allegations made against him, probably because she thought she was too smart to fall for pressure or be "star struck".

You can see the look of unease on her face when he asks her to lie down. But he just gave her the book, and she thinks they've formed a genuine connection. I thought LD did a great job here of portraying the thought process Hannah was going through. "This would be a dumb thing to do, my instincts are telling me so, but I don't want to screw up this nice moment I had with this lonely guy who I've unwittingly harmed, so I'm just gonna lie down ..." 

And then when he whips it out, her hand goes *reflexively* to it. Sepinwall points out that Chuck set it up perfectly in that regard--nothing that happened could technically be called non-consensual.

The thing that hit me after sleeping on it was that Chuck did the same thing Hannah described her teacher doing--praised her and built her up as a writer, then victimized her.

(The whole thing also reminded me a bit of the allegations against Louis CK.)

Edited February 26, 2017 by kieyra

[WhosThatGirl]

4 hours ago, Sdh1545 said:

Didn't love it.  And I've really enjoyed all the other standalone ones, even the Hannah ones. But this one wasn't good or deserving enough-it didn't move the story forward, or show us anything about Hannah we didn't already know. I was just annoyed that with a finite amount of episodes left, they wasted one on this-I'd rather have seen more of the others.

This is how I feel. We are in the final season and this episode randomly happens? Oookay. There's no reason. I very much doubt we're going to even circle back to this. Eh. We've had three episodes in the final season and I've only liked 1 of them. 

[scrb]

She was also attracted to him, in some measure the same way those other women who threw themselves at him were.

She looked at herself going up in the elevator, applied lipstick.  While he was on the phone, she freshened up in the bathroom, like they might get close or intimate.

As they said in Inside the Episode, Hannah was learning that people she respected artistically could be horrible people.  When she first got involved with Adam, he made her do things that other women would consider humiliating.  Maybe that's why she got embroiled in the controversy in the first place.  Though she claimed a measure of self-esteem when she refused Adam asking her to get back together, maybe there are still some self-esteem issues which led to her lying down and reflexively grabbing it.

Was she attracted to Palmer despite the allegations against him or because of them?

[kieyra]

I didn't read Hannah as being attracted to him. We're used to her sleeping with anyone, but she was obviously quite put off by him in the beginning. 

I took the bathroom scene as sweat from nervousness--she was still intimidated. 

And the look on her face when he asks her to lie down pretty much spelled it out for me--she didn't want to. She was acting out the power imbalance they'd just finished discussing; she didn't think "no" was an option. 

Then again, I'm sure this will be a divisive episode so there will be lots of "agree to disagree" territory.

I understand the sense that the episode felt out of place, but it's an important topic they took on--especially now--and probably the last "bottle episode" the show will ever have. 

[Primetimer]

But one of her literary heroes has another kind of blowing in mind.

View the full article

[Adultosaurus]

Love Matthew Rhys - hate the Hannah-only eps.  But my fav thing was the sublety of showing Palmer's apartment having large photos of the rooms right outside the rooms.

[windtrix]

Fantastic episode. Such a great way to articulate what consent means. I could totally relate to this type of situation....unfortunately from experiences 40 years ago. Sad to say not much has changed.

[HollyG]

10 hours ago, LuciaMia said:

Hoping there'd be a bit more than just Hannah. Curious if there'd be any follow-up with Desi. You just don't quit 20 oxys a day.

I saw next week's preview and it looks like they pick up the Desi addiction story next week. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Inside the episode:

[ElectricBoogaloo]

When Hannah said she heard the book was originally supposed to have a different title, I thought of this classic scene:

[wendyg]

I didn't sense a genuine connection either; he guessed correctly that the way to seduce her was by praising her writing, and then she helped him improve the approach by telling him the story about her teacher, which provided confirmation and a blueprint to continue. One really interesting point to me is that she actually "got the story" by making a significant personal mistake at the outset, which was to agree to go to interview a guy who is the subject of sexual allegations alone in his apartment. Had she brought a friend for protection or insisted on a public place, she would have been safe from the con, but she wouldn't have seen it in operation and understood it on the personal level of "This could happen to me".

She has much more to write about this way.

[luna1122]

I get the criticism that this is the last season and a stand alone Hannah episode does nothing to further along the stories of the Girls, but I found this a really sharply written, incisive, thought provoking episode, and I also think it DID progress Hannah's story. I think she, at first at least, seemed so much more mature, professional, intelligent than Hannah usually does. And he seemed clearly to be conning her, seducing her, all with smarmy, evil, diabolical intent, so what's being reported as being said in the After show is baffling. I'm still mulling over the exact intent and thesis behind the episode, which I do believe was Dunham's hope about this one, to start a conversation and to make it open to interpretation and experience. I think it was a great half hour of tv.

[jenh526]

I agree with luna that this was a great episode. Having gone through something similar, I think the way that Hannah's confusion was portrayed was spot-on. That's part of the game too, to keep the target unbalanced and confused. If he was a true predator (and it seemed like he was, and very practiced at it too), he would've sent invitations to every female who had written something about him, knowing that those who accepted were the ones most likely to have boundary issues, and therefore the ones most likely to be manipulated.

I watched the "Inside the Episode" and it seemed like Jenni Konner was the person who didn't quite get it. Lena and Judd both seemed to be firmly on the side of "she was victimized", but they were downplaying it.

Edited February 27, 2017 by jenh526

[Otherkate]

I typically hate Hannah-heavy episodes, but I loved this one. It immediately made me think of Oleanna - particularly with almost the entire thing being made up of just the two of them. Certainly this is a very real situation that young women find themselves in and it's extremely confusing. My favorite bit was his daughter's flute performance, because it highlighted how a man who seems to treat women in a questionable way can still love and worship his daughter and just how confusing that is to a young woman watching it play out. 

[Auntie Velvet]

A lot of it felt like an artificial wish fulfillment workshop play, for exposing a cross between Tao Lin (sexual assault accusations) and Jonathan Franzen (contempt of digital media). But the fact that I wanted to smack that smirk off MR's face at the end tells me that it was a success on some level. (In other words, the usual Girls mixed bag.)

[tennisgurl]

The first few minutes, all I could think of was "What could the USSR possibly want with Hannah so much that they would get Philip to make such an elaborate cover?" but, through the power of Matthew Rhys, I got over that pretty quickly. And Philip is WAY less of a creeper (albeit with a higher body count).

I'm definitely team "he was a creeper and this was his end game the whole time". I think the ending with all the women walking into the apartment after Hannah left supported that, metaphorically. He was making some decent points, but Hannah actually made better ones, which is pretty amazing, considering Hannah is...Hannah. This episode actually shows some real growth for her, she actually came off as competent, intelligent, and put together. Again, for Hannah, but still, its miles from when she couldn't get through a job interview without making horrible "jokes" about the interviewer being a date rapist.

This almost seemed like an episode that was more interested in inspiring Think Pieces then really being a good episode, but I still think it succeeded in being a good episode. Its probably their last Bottle Episode, and this was a pretty strong note to end on. I don't really agree with the critics all saying this is the Best Girls Ever, but still a really good outing, and will probably start lots of conversation, which is probably its purpose.

[Tara]

I thought the whole episode was ridiculous. Hannah rolling her eyes every time he told her she was taking the word of women she never met or even spoke with was annoying, as if she is so much smarter than everyone all the time.  And then of course she is right.  And why would she lay on the bed with him, then hold his dick?  Was that supposed to portray how women end up being victimized and "raped"?

And I agree with MR when he asked, how do you force someone to give you a blowjob?  By threatening physical injury, perhaps; in that case, why go to his apartment alone? 

[SlackerInc]

1 hour ago, jenh526 said:

I watched the "Inside the Episode" and it seemed like Jenni Konner was the person who didn't quite get it. Lena and Judd both seemed to be firmly on the side of "she was victimized", but they were downplaying it.

I would suggest watching again.  Judd's position was harder to read, but Lena quite clearly stated that he did not set this up as a diabolical plot, and emphatically agreed with Konner that he felt a real connection with her.

[kieyra]

1 hour ago, Tara said:

I thought the whole episode was ridiculous. Hannah rolling her eyes every time he told her she was taking the word of women she never met or even spoke with was annoying, as if she is so much smarter than everyone all the time.  And then of course she is right.  And why would she lay on the bed with him, then hold his dick?  Was that supposed to portray how women end up being victimized and "raped"?

And I agree with MR when he asked, how do you force someone to give you a blowjob?  By threatening physical injury, perhaps; in that case, why go to his apartment alone? 

I think it's supposed to show a more nuanced idea of 'consent' than 'physical force'. 

[luna1122]

I can believe it wasn't a diabolical plot from the get-go, tho I can also believe that it was. I wasn't sure how to read the parade of women going into his building at the end..I believe it was metaphorical, but whether to show that there would always be women falling for his creepy schtick or that he had indeed contacted more women who had written about the allegations, I wasn't--am not--sure. At any rate, he definitely had an agenda by the end. His leering, triumphant smile t the end was downright evil.

[tennisgurl]

Maybe they're trying to say that while Chuck isn't the misunderstood victim of a PC witch hunt that he claims to be, he isn't a super villain either. He probably isn't even Bill Cosby. He`s a person, not a monster, but that doesn't mean he's a good person. Maybe he really doesn't see what he did as wrong (however, the evil leer says he at least on some level knows he's an asshole). I don't know, sometimes I just prefer to watch the show and draw my own conclusions, and not listen to what Lena and company have to say.

Can we get an American Bitch Tee Shirt?

[scrb]

It might in the end be that both are right.  He's a serial predator and women approach him or throw themselves at him to have some experience to write about.

Will Hannah write about this encounter?  Even if she really believed he was exploiting the women, she was still somewhat starstruck, in agreeing to visit him and letting him slither his way into making her let her guard down.

[WhosThatGirl]

5 minutes ago, scrb said:

It might in the end be that both are right.  He's a serial predator and women approach him or throw themselves at him to have some experience to write about.

Will Hannah write about this encounter?  Even if she really believed he was exploiting the women, she was still somewhat starstruck, in agreeing to visit him and letting him slither his way into making her let her guard down.

I'm pretty sure the series is going to end with Hannah getting a book deal of some kind so she will probably write about this encounter.

I guess it was an okay episode but I agree not the best ever. I'm one of the few who loved the Marnie bottle episode and thought that was a great episode. 

Amd I get it, it's a decent episode but I just feel like the final season needs us to be moving stories forward. I very much doubt we're going to come back to this incidient in anyway. We never do with the bottle episodes, the exception being Marnies only because  she broke off her marriage with Desi. But with Hannah, her bottle episodes never get thought about again, we never heard about anything that happened the weekend she went to see her parents, never heard about Patrick Wilson, or her grandmother again. I doubt we will hear about Matthew Rhys.

[CarolMK]

That was really weird but I guess I understand the point that they were trying to make. Though overall I see this show as a comedy, I'm quite a bit older than the target audience so I suppose I see things differently. 

Just my basic instincts- never go to anyone's home alone, period. Meet in public. And if anything starts sounding creepy or weird, leave immediately. That all said, I don't think it would even be possible for me to have the kind of conversation that Hannah went there to have with him. And yes, he is a creep and took advantage of her by preying on her. It's the same as if he'd exposed himself in public. Nothing confusing about it, that was pretty clear to me. A sick power play.

[sugarbaker design]

6 minutes ago, CarolMK said:

Just my basic instincts- never go to anyone's home alone, period. Meet in public. And if anything starts sounding creepy or weird, leave immediately.

I was getting creeped out when he was making the tea/coffee, I was waiting for a Cosbyesque slipping of the mickey.

Guilty admission:  I was swooning over that apartment:  the doorman, the bookshelves, the terrace, the views!!!

[luna1122]

omg, his place! Total apartment porn.  I wonder if it was the real apartment of someone on the Girls' crew...like Patrick Wilson's  gorgeous brownstone really belonged to Billy Morrisette. I might sleep with a guy for less. (j/k)

Edited February 27, 2017 by luna1122

[Adultosaurus]

When he pulled out his dick, it was out - but she grabbed it.  Why?  If this was a  progressive statement then why have her being reductive and grabbing it instinctively instead of being repulsed immediately?  Earnestly asking...I just don't think this was any kind of step-forward for Hannah.

[ahpny]

I thought this episode was a very well done nuanced study about "consenting" adults.  No one forced anyone to do anything. That's the writter's stated excuse, but this story goes back to Anita Hill and beyond. Indeed, in the writter's own mind, he's the victim - of false accusations of abuse. He's the "witch" in this hunt. Another "high tech lynching." No one forced Hanna to answer his email, to go to his apartment, to listen to his stories, to accept his Roth-signed gift, enter his bedroom, to lie down next to him in his bed, to grab his dick, or stay to watch his daughter perform. At many points she could have made any other decision that would have avoided the result. Queue the chorus of "she wanted it" or at least how bad could it have been anyway. And she does have a great story now, as he explained others had sought.

Has she been violated any more than those around her when she de-suited on a Montauk beach to the point of nudity? Logically perhaps not, but otherwise certainly so. His victorious smerk said even he knew he'd won a battle to take something he should not have had.

But Girls has it's own history of "unwanted" blow jobs. Where on the spectrum of abuse would we put Hanna's aborted blow job of Ray in his truck after he said "no" repeatedly while driving (but eventually relented and crashed). Absent force, the threat of force, or imparement, how exactly does a blow job happen against someone's will? A bit "throaty" doesn't really cut it.

It happens when that will rests on misused guile, charm and power. And that's where this episode shined.

[luna1122]

Two steps forward, three steps back, I think. She's a young work in progress. Some of us are old works in progress.

[CofCinci]

I really enjoyed this stand-alone episode but it felt out of place (as they all do) from the series format.  Lena should consider creating an anthology series like Black Mirror, where she and other women can explore complex themes.  For me, this is the most thought provoking episode of the series.

Hannah's mismatched outfit - pants with vertical stripes/top with horizontal stripes - show her internal discord about going to his apartment.  We've seen her in many revealing outfits in the workplace, but this is her most conservative outfit.  Her original game plan was to go in there and not be attractive/stay strictly professional, but at the last moments she second-guesses her look in the elevator and applies the lipstick.  I wonder what is Hannah's motivation in that moment as we rarely see Hannah in lipstick.  Does she want to look conventionally pretty to see if her hero is actually a scumbag?  She is there because she wants to know the truth.  If she firmly believed he is a predator, she wouldn't have gone to his apartment.  There is a small part of her that wants to believe he is innocent. 

Chuck is master manipulator - ready to punish women for the years they ignored him before he became famous.  He knew exactly what he was doing the whole time with Hannah because it is old hat.  Hannah is just another dummy from Virginia or Michigan - as evidenced by her trip to the bathroom to dry?/clean? herself off.  His flattery worked.  His power worked.  His celebrity worked.  His gorgeous apartment worked.  He didn't want to have sex with Hannah (he knew his daughter was coming home at 3:00pm) but he wanted to craft the situation and challenge Hannah.  He gifted "When She Was Good" because he knew she would leave it behind in a moment of clarity and disgust.  Wonder how many times he has gifted these first editions?  It is telling that he stores them in his bedroom and not in his office.

I've never read "When She Was Good" so I wonder how it parallels Hannah's experience.

"If one more male writer I love reveals himself to be a heinous sleaze bag, "I'm gonna do a bunch of murders, "create a new Isle of Lesbos, and never look back."

" You're funny."

No, that wasn't funny.

"But you should be using your funny to tackle subjects that matter."

"Then why would a smart woman like you write a very long and considered piece of writing on what is ultimately hearsay? "

Did you call all of them to come to your apartment? Which, by the way, is lovely.  I had no idea novelists could make this much money.

No, I didn't call them.  I didn't call any of them.  I only called you.

(sighs) Why me?

Because you're smart.
You write well.
You write sharply.
Like you're actually paying attention.
You even made me believe what you were saying, and I'm the one you're fuckin' lyin' about.
So, are you really gonna use all this skill to write for some shitty website, being paid a meaningless fee to slam some guy you've never met but claim to respect?

I saw a woman who was lovely, lonely, and scared.

Hannah is also lovely, lonely and scared.

That's what two-bit journalists do.

And you're not a journalist, Hannah.
You're a fuckin' writer.

God, I hope someone writes a book about what a cunt I am someday.

- Do you? - Yeah, obviously.

 You may get your wish, Hannah.

 

 

 

 

[CofCinci]

25 minutes ago, Adultosaurus said:

When he pulled out his dick, it was out - but she grabbed it.  Why?  If this was a  progressive statement then why have her being reductive and grabbing it instinctively instead of being repulsed immediately?  Earnestly asking...I just don't think this was any kind of step-forward for Hannah.

I interpreted the grab as Hannah wanting to feel close to someone (like he stated when he asked her to lay down) too.

But she missed the obvious cue that the fire was going to burn her and she should leave.

[scrb]

OK, is it a real thing to have LED strips framing the bookcases or is it something they did for TV?

[Adultosaurus]

1 minute ago, scrb said:

OK, is it a real thing to have LED strips framing the bookcases or is it something they did for TV?

I have them in my reading room bookcases.

24 minutes ago, CofCinci said:

I interpreted the grab as Hannah wanting to feel close to someone (like he stated when he asked her to lay down) too.

But she missed the obvious cue that the fire was going to burn her and she should leave.

She feels close to EVERYONE all of the time.  Obtrusively and inappropriately so.  So I think it was just her being Hannah.

[huahaha]

I'm another one who thought the Inside the Episode made no sense.

Lena has been through her fair share of innuendo and accusation because of things she wrote about her little sister. I really thought she might have some insights into why power imbalances can create creepy situations and how being a public figure puts bad choices out for scrutiny.

Instead, none of the three of them seemed to understand the dynamic they set up so well.

From my view, the penis incident didn't have to be a long con. He read the room and couldn't resist in the moment. Hannah was swept up in the moment too.

Famous people (and even popular people) can be a little eccentric because most people just want the experience to continue. It can be very hard to decide where to draw the line, and also tempting for the famous person to see how far they can push it. You can be the person who says no, but then you're also the person who just missed out on a potentially powerful connection.

Edited February 27, 2017 by huahaha

[chick binewski]

On 2/25/2017 at 6:05 PM, WhosThatGirl said:

And the ATE stopped making sense to me last season. I always feel a weird disconnect between what I see on the show and what Hannah and Judd and the writers feel they have created and put out on screen. 

I disliked the episode but after I watched ATE I went to actively hating it. Chuck had a connection with Hannah and he felt victimized by the women in his life? I do not understand how the creators of the show felt comfortable making those statements but if they truly believe what they say they did an awful job conveying the character's personality. 

4 hours ago, sugarbaker design said:

Guilty admission:  I was swooning over that apartment:  the doorman, the bookshelves, the terrace, the views!!!

As irritating as I found the episode the apartment had me drooling. I will always be a pushover for bookshelf lighting.

[stagmania]

Emily Nussbaum wrote a great review of the episode. Her take is far better than the ATE with the creators, IMO. 

[Eucrid]

This was well written, well acted, well paced and funny. It just didn't feel like Girls. It felt like a separate thing Lena wanted to do, a point she wanted to make. And she made it well but it just felt apart from the rest of the show.

 

But when Mathew Reese revealed himself, Damn he looked half wolf. Great acting throughout from him.

[SlackerInc]

1 hour ago, stagmania said:

Emily Nussbaum wrote a great review of the episode. Her take is far better than the ATE with the creators, IMO. 

She is a good writer, but she has a history of understanding episodes very differently from how the writers intended. I'm specifically thinking of two late episodes of Breaking Bad. 

ETA: What teen boy did Hannah have sex with?

Edited February 28, 2017 by SlackerInc