S01.E16: The Red Scare

[MrSmith]

I haven't watched it, yet, but I'm at the point where I'm ready to remove this from my TiVO. My wife likes this show better than I do and, I have to admit, this show has some fun moments. I'm just tired of watching a show that is so completely failing to reach its potential.

[basiltherat]

Well, first of all, the old trope of 'the name guest star done it' applies to both Susannah and Annie.  Of course, mom is Evul and she does not want to go back to an alternate reality where she is dying and prefers to sacrifice a daughter for her Rittenhouse-hood.  Where does this leave Lucy's half-brother who does not have the double Rittenhouse parentage?

OK, and now to Jiya, who everyone loves, along with Rufus.  If being the fourth person on the eyeball turns her wonky, why did Anthony turn wonky when it was just TWO of them with Flynn?  And Emma looks as cray-cray as Anthony and, again, there was just two, at least until Lucy jumped on board the last time.  (By the way, I would have loved a scene of Lucy and Flynn TALKING ABOUT THINGS on the trip back.  Nobody talks about stuff!)

So, if Jiya gets wonky time travellng, does that mean you can travel outside an Eyeball (and does the fact that her EYEBALL is bleeding mean anything significant?)  If she sees multiple bridges, is it the past, while the bridge was being built, or from a future where the bridge is being repaired after some holocaust, whether Rittenhouse-made or by earthquake.

I wonder if we are all thinking about this more than the Show has.  It is fun to have another Frozen Donkey Wheel to must about.

[kili]

When the met Lindbergh he said that Rittenhouse was going to have him say all sorts of crazy things he didn't mean. Lucy tried to help him escape, but he went back anyway and did what they wanted. When people kept confronting McCarthy with him being Rittenhouse, I expected his demeanor to change and for him to start saying Rittenhouse wanted him to behave like a crazed, vindictive loon.

Wyatt is always extremely competent except when faced with Flynn. He calmly and efficiently dealt with McCarthy's goons. 

When Lucy's Mom was going on about how she came from two good Rittenhouse families, I got the impression Lucy was the result of some kind of weirdo Rittenhouse breeding program. The Mom originally said that Lucy resulted from a prof/student relationship which could never last, but now it sounds intentional. Ick.

Ethan was a nice guy. How did he manage to raise Ben? Ethan would have survived Flynn's massacre because he was at his club. 

If Lucy is Rittenhouse royalty, why was she never told? Ethan was told when he was 18 and the woman they rescued when they went back to the 60s was quite young and she knew all about it.

Rufus heals fast. I hope he got some antibiotics.

[DoubleUTeeEff]

I'm thinking Lucy was told about Rittenhouse in the alternate timeline, the one where she had a fiance she didn't know about.  I think maybe her mother turned away from Rittenhouse after she met Lucy's sister's father.  That would make seem like Rittenhouse were the ones who wanted the timeline altered to make Lucy's mother come back to them, sacrificing Lucy's sister in the process. 

I enjoyed that Lucy's mother turned out to be Rittenhouse and since I turn off my brain for this show, I didn't see it coming.

I thought there was too much of Lucy talking Flynn into being a good guy.  I don't really believe that would work on him.

I could live without any romantic pairings on this show.  Or if they did have them, they were just matter of fact.  Like, now this couple is dating instead of the whole will they/won't they thing.

I wonder if Jiya's episode was of her seeing an alternate timeline or if she was actually time traveling.  And if she did time travel, how long was she there and how did her body stay in the present?

[pure]

I'm tired of films / shows being 'dark'.
There's enough darkness in real-life right now. We don't need anymore in our entertainment.

I find Timeless entertaining just as it is.
A show doesn't need to be doom and gloom in order to creative.

[tennisgurl]

So, that was Timeless! A show that has lots of things going for it, but also has some pretty big problems it would need to fix in the future. The biggest issue is, to me, the focus on Rittenhouse and Flynn. Flynn is repetitive and his plan is all kinds of stupid, and Rittenhouse is just another big evil conspiracy that secretly runs everything without ever actually explaining what their deal is. This show is at its best when its just Our Heroes running throughout history meeting historical figures and having cool, light hearted adventures. We don't need to stupid conspiracy plot.

Ethan seemed like a good guy, and I really liked the actor playing him. I wonder how Ben came to be? Maybe his mom was a big Rittehouse supporter and he takes after her? Of course, we hardly know Ben, so who knows his real thoughts on anything. Again, if next season will focus even more on Rittenhouse, I need to see a manifesto or something.

I feel bad for Lucy's fiancé. He hasn't really done anything wrong, and, from his perspective, he had a whole relation with Lucy, and she clearly couldn't care less about it. Its not her fault, but it sucks for him. Also, not much Red Scare here, which was too bad. They could have mined a lot out of that time period.

I have no idea why Lucy was alright with letting Flynn get away with everything he's done. Yeah, his family dying was tragic, but he has killed so many innocent people, and has created so many possibilities that could screw over so many people, it would rub me the wrong way if he just got away with everything. Maybe Rittenhouse is more evil, but Flynn is still a bad guy.

For all this shows faults, I did enjoy it, and I hope we get a season 2. I will be right there watching!

Edited February 21, 2017 by tennisgurl

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

Timeless Reveals Whose Time Is Up

It may actually be the show's, but it sure doesn't plan to go without a fight.

[CooperTV]

It was incredibly underwhelming, not that I was expecting anything else from Timeless season (show?) finale, considering its track record. Well, the grandpa Cahill was interesting, I suppose, but they could have done so much more with him. Or even introduce him three episodes before that for viewers to actually be invested in him, since he was rather bland individual overall. I liked the resolution, with him giving Lucy and Wyatt all the Rittenhouse files and seeing them after 60 years. But it was pretty much a Deus Ex Machina situation and should have been built at least from episode 2 or 3.

The Creepy Mom is Rittenhouse, as I predicted. Or as the writers had dropped anvils in the last episode. I wonder why she didn't marry the Baby Daddy Cahill, if they're so pure blood and stuff...

I was annoyed at Lucy (but mostly at the writers) the whole time, because they were still trying to redeem Flynn and make him sympathetic through Lucy's misplaced empathy for him. The only emotion I was feeling was grossed out. Dear writers, you either write him as someone who said, more or less, "I prayed God for answers and he said to me I should blow up me some people. I'm sad :(" or as a person who is truly want to do better and stop killing. Not a combination of a psycho and a sad emoji at the same time. It doesn't work. Like many things in your show, BTW.

Jyia's storyline seems to have the most potential in the future (pun intended, I guess??). I like the actress, and everything with her and Rufus was handled perfectly.

Wyatt was super badass this episode, and he, and Lucy's 1950s wardrobe, were amazing! Yeah, dude, kick this disgusting prick McCarthy's ass!

They brought boring ex specifically to hint at Lucy/Wyatt, and then Flynn, of all people, went "Your Wyatt's fine"? Wow, thank you, show! And Wyatt had emotional progress at the end of the episode? I'm thinking if they renewed, St. Jessica would sure come back from the dead to make the angst happen for the poor boy!

[LoneHaranguer]

2 hours ago, rove4 said:

And was Lucy's mom Rittenhouse in the original timeline where she was sick and Amy existed? Or is her involvement in Rittenhouse part of changes made to the timeline (at any point during the show's run)?

You could also ask if this was the same Connor Mason. 

[blackwing]

I have enjoyed the show this season despite its flaws, because I am a sucker for anything historical.  Loved seeing the different time periods.  If we get a second season, I'd love to see more, and not necessarily just in the United States.  The team went to Paris in the 1920s, so it is possible.  Flynn went to the future, he said that Lucy aged very well and gave him the journal.  Would love to see the team go 50 years into the future.

I do feel this episode had too much going on.  The whole Jiya getting time flashback visions thing seemed oddly out of place and I suppose it is to set things up for a potential second season.  Same with Moira Queen being revealed as being part of Rittenhouse.  The last 15 minutes or so was odd.  We see Ethan and Flynn and Lucy watching Wyatt, Rufus and Jiya depart in the Lifeboat.  Lucy had said she would catch a ride back with Flynn.  Lucy tells Ethan there are things she needs him to do.  Then the very next scene, all of a sudden Lucy and Wyatt are together and approaching an old man.  It took me a few seconds to figure out that we had skipped a bit, that Flynn didn't harm Lucy, Lucy got back safely, she and Wyatt contacted each other, they figured out where Ethan was living, etc.

I do kind of wish that we would have seen if Lucy got her sister back.  I totally expected the last scene of this season to be her going home and finding her sister there.  And I thought maybe her fiance would have transformed into being her sister's husband.  Didn't see the Moira Rittenhouse ending at all.  I guess Wyatt is done trying to save his wife?  Because he realises he is in love with Lucy?  I know that the confessed serial killer must not have been Jessica's killer, but with all the information Connor Mason supposedly has at his disposal, surely they would be able to identify the real killer.  Wyatt could call in his favour and go back in time to eliminate that killer to get her back if he really wanted to.

Would have been nice for Flynn to have been able to save his family, but I'm with the comment upthread that said that hopefully he doesn't come back if there is a second season.  Unfortunately, I see him coming back, and he would be part of the team this time to fight Rittenhouse, which apparently still exists despite all the efforts of Ethan Cahill.

12 hours ago, maraleia said:

Serious question- are you a part of the LGBTQ community? I'm a lesbian who wants show runners to do better if they choose to incorporate queer characters in their shows.

I don't understand why you are pushing back on my call for more and better queer representation on TV shows (here and Supergirl for example). If the writers care they will figure out how to incorporate Agent Christopher's family life into this show if they get a second season.

I guess I don't understand the complaint?  The show showed us Agent Christopher's family to make a connection between her and Lucy.  Lucy wants to save her sister.  We saw Christopher's family just to show that she also understands what it would be like to lose her family.  That's why she told Lucy to remember them for her if something happened to them.  The fact that her spouse happens to be a woman is meaningless.  The spouse could easily have been a man.  I agree with the original response that said this show is not about Agent Christopher.  She's a secondary character on the show and she happens to be a lesbian, I thought of it as the show saying it's not a big deal.  The point wasn't about whether or not Christopher is a lesbian.  Since that episode, her status hasn't been mentioned at all.  The point was just to show that she too has a family so she understood Lucy's feelings.  Put it this way, I have no idea whether Connor Mason is married, and didn't even think about it until just now.  He may or may not be.  He might have a wife, a girlfriend, a husband or a boyfriend.  Or he might be single.  It doesn't matter, because it's not integral to the overarching plot.

[kili]

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And was Lucy's mom Rittenhouse in the original timeline where she was sick and Amy existed? Or is her involvement in Rittenhouse part of changes made to the timeline (at any point during the show's run)? It would make sense that if some formerly Rittenhouse families were prevented from joining, other families who were never part of Rittenhouse would take their place.

TVLine asked the same question:

She’s always been Rittenhouse. This is something that Eric [Kripke] and I had talked about even as we were making the pilot, before we even had writers on staff, that we felt that Lucy’s mother was Rittenhouse. We just debated when and how to reveal that. She’s someone who in both timelines… has always been a secret and an important member of Rittenhouse.

The creators also said:

Lucy’s mom pretty far outranks Ben Cahill. So it all comes down to Ben revealed himself, and Carol didn’t because that was exactly the way Carol wanted it for reasons that’ll be illuminated in Season 2.

They seem to talk about Season 2 as if it will happen.

[CooperTV]

12 minutes ago, blackwing said:

 Flynn went to the future, he said that Lucy aged very well and gave him the journal.  Would love to see the team go 50 years into the future.

I don't think Flynn went to the future. I think Lucy went (or is going to travel) to the past and aged there.

Edited February 21, 2017 by CooperTV

[Randomosity]

4 minutes ago, CooperTV said:

I don't think Flynn went to the future. I think Lucy went (or is going to travel) to the past and age there.

Or they just age in the present and both happen to run into each other (as their older selves, in season 18) at the same point in the past

[rove4]

15 minutes ago, kili said:

TVLine asked the same question:

She’s always been Rittenhouse. This is something that Eric [Kripke] and I had talked about even as we were making the pilot, before we even had writers on staff, that we felt that Lucy’s mother was Rittenhouse. We just debated when and how to reveal that. She’s someone who in both timelines… has always been a secret and an important member of Rittenhouse.

The creators also said:

Lucy’s mom pretty far outranks Ben Cahill. So it all comes down to Ben revealed himself, and Carol didn’t because that was exactly the way Carol wanted it for reasons that’ll be illuminated in Season 2.

They seem to talk about Season 2 as if it will happen.

Well, that answers that. Thanks for posting that!

[Sandman]

11 hours ago, rove4 said:

What did Flynn say to Lucy at the end.? That she gave him the journal sometime in the future and that she aged well? 

Yup -- I can't remember just now if he said "you aged pretty well," or maybe "You looked good for 90," but it was something close to that. Which makes me wonder if Jiya's vision/time-slip of the Golden Gate Bridge was an image of its construction or of its (possible future) re-construction. If Lucy is truly the source of the notebook, then I think it's implied that the Mothership can go into the future. (Maybe not.) It made me wonder if the Season 2 arc was meant to be about stopping a (possibly apocalyptic?) timeline from occurring. (Days of Future Timeless, anyone?) ETA: I guess Kripke's comments pretty much rule that out.

11 hours ago, rove4 said:

And was Lucy's mom Rittenhouse in the original timeline where she was sick and Amy existed? Or is her involvement in Rittenhouse part of changes made to the timeline (at any point during the show's run)? It would make sense that if some formerly Rittenhouse families were prevented from joining, other families who were never part of Rittenhouse would take their place.

I wondered about this, too. It also occurred to me that, for a present where the incarceration and dismantling of Rittenhouse appears to be playing out, Lucy's mom (is it too late for me to call her Cool As A Cucumber Carol?) seems pretty unperturbed. The organization that's essentially been in control of Lucy's whole life, unbeknownst to her, is unraveling, but, golly, they're just so gosh-darned proud of how she turned out? Really? Are Rittenhouse Family Plan members given access to the really, really good pharmaceuticals along with access to the cool servers? She must have a hell of a contingency plan. 

Agent Christopher was thinking too short-term: if she had allowed Lucy's deal with Flynn to go through, he would have been off the table; completely neutralized as a threat. This way, he's incarcerated, maybe tried, but even more bitter, and possibly more determined to protect his family. Which raises an ugly -- though slim -- possibility: what if Agent Christopher's long game is that she is actually working for Rittenhouse? Was making sure Flynn didn't use the Mothership one last time crucial to making sure Emma could steal it?

Edited February 22, 2017 by Sandman
Maybe I'm not sure about when and how Old Lucy meets Flynn?

[iMonrey]

The episode felt like a reset so they can come back next season and do more of the same: chase after Emma/Rittenhouse every week, trying to prevent her/them from changing history. And if, in fact, the show wants to maintain this premise that allows them to dress their cast up in period costumes and meet famous people throughout history, they never really figured out why the ratings for this show continued to drop over the course of the season. People got frustrated with the show and its lack of consequences, and the repetitive nature of its format.

Quote

That felt very rushed and sort of frenetic. Simultaneously tying up loose ends for a possible non-renewal, while trying to set up new mysteries in case they do get renewed. 

It definitely felt like there was a re-write to accommodate a potential series finale. The inclusion of McCarthy ended up being more or less pointless. It's also worth noting that most shows are given either a 13 or 22 episode order. The fact that this show only got 16 does not bode well - the producers may have hoped the network would  order more episodes if the show did well enough, and maybe had to re-write episode 16 when it became apparent it would be the last, for the season at least. 

Quote

If it gets renewed - I imagine it will get a Friday slot and a lowered budget, which I think the show could do better with - lowered expectations on a Friday.

The problem is that the ratings were not good even by Friday night standards, and it's unlikely to find a larger audience on a less visible night.  It's one thing if NBC had launched the show as a Friday night show, but clearly they had high enough hopes for it to give it a Monday night time slot. Shows that do poorly in the ratings don't tend to migrate to Fridays, they tend to get cancelled. It's the shows that are launched as Friday shows that have a better chance of surviving lower ratings. 

That said, the last two episodes have ticked upward a bit, but I'm not sure a 0.9 in the key demo is enough for NBC to give it another chance.

[Kimmel77]

A very uneventful and anti-climatic ending; Lucy convinces Flynn to take the diplomatic option, completely disregarding his aggressive pursuit so far for such an opportunity to take out Rittenhouse all in one go. And they made him look like a fool twice over given how he got sent to prison in the end.

This season has been flawed with repetitiveness and weak storytelling. Season two will not a be a priority watch for me.

[henripootel]

13 hours ago, maraleia said:

Serious question- are you a part of the LGBTQ community? I'm a lesbian who wants show runners to do better if they choose to incorporate queer characters in their shows.

I'm also curious - isn't this how everyone should want this handled?  Agent Christopher has a wife, so do I, it doesn't define me and there's more to me than just that fact.  I actually thought it was kinda refreshing that they mentioned this fact and declined to elaborate like it's just ... normal.  It is normal.  I genuinely see this as progress. 

I enjoyed this episode but yet again I think the writers are having it both ways on Ritttenhouse.  Seemed a bit pat that all they had to do was get the documented goods on Rittenhouse, turn it over to the 'proper authorities' and they'd ferret the rascals out.  Seems more likely they'd be turning over their documents to Rittenhouse (who run everything) who'd thank them and quietly round up the Time Team and anyone associated with them.  So is Rittenhouse a multigenerational army of baddies who control everyone and everything, or are they a smallish group of infiltrators who can fit into what looked like a fairly modest-sized mansion?

Also thought the whole 'Lucy's mom isn't at all who Lucy thought she was' was a bit of a cop-out.  Nobody expects these 'huge plot twists' because they make no farking sense.  Thirty-odd years and Lucy never got a whiff that she's actually super-rich domestic terrorist royalty?  Gee, ma, where was Rittenhouse when Lucy was dancing at the Iguana to pay for grad school?

[maraleia]

5 minutes ago, henripootel said:

I'm also curious - isn't this how everyone should want this handled?  Agent Christopher has a wife, so do I, it doesn't define me and there's more to me than just that fact.  I actually thought it was kinda refreshing that they mentioned this fact and declined to elaborate like it's just ... normal.  It is normal.  I genuinely see this as progress. 

 

I love that it was organic but I guess I just want to see Sakina get some more action on the show and that includes her character's home life.

[benteen]

Quote

I'm personally sick of Flynn and think he deserves whatever the law throws at him. Murdering numerous innocent people throughout time in the name of your own family doesn't make him any better than Rittenhouse. How many families did he devastate in the same way his was?  He may not have started out as a monster but he made himself one.

I agree that Flynn is a murderer and doesn't deserve an ounce of sympathy or the opportunity to save his family.  He indiscriminately killed his way through history and killed people who weren't supposed to die for many years (like that guy who worked for NASA).  There was no excuse for many of his murderers and I consider it just sadism on his part.

[henripootel]

18 minutes ago, maraleia said:

I love that it was organic but I guess I just want to see Sakina get some more action on the show and that includes her character's home life.

I like the actress but I really don't think they know what to do with her character.  For me, she's just been one source of many for my primary gripe about Rittenhouse: why would they ever let anyone except of their own hold such a position?  What if she figures out that Rittenhouse is evil and resists, as indeed happened.  I would have expected the Time Team and everyone in it to be old-school Rittenhouse, top to bottom.  Of course this'd mean we don't have a show, but it'd at least make a bit of sense to me. 

Edited February 21, 2017 by henripootel

[CooperTV]

2 minutes ago, henripootel said:

 I would have expected the Time Team and everyone in it to be old-school Rittenhouse, top to bottom.

If everyone's Rittenhouse, there's no Rittenhouse. Or, the show writers did a very bad job of defining what's Rittenhouse even is in the first place.

[Randomosity]

1 hour ago, blackwing said:

...We see Ethan and Flynn and Lucy watching Wyatt, Rufus and Jiya depart in the Lifeboat.  Lucy had said she would catch a ride back with Flynn.  Lucy tells Ethan there are things she needs him to do.  Then the very next scene, all of a sudden Lucy and Wyatt are together and approaching an old man.  It took me a few seconds to figure out that we had skipped a bit, that Flynn didn't harm Lucy, Lucy got back safely, she and Wyatt contacted each other, they figured out where Ethan was living, etc.

I was actually half-thinking the opposite for a second. Wyatt and Lucy (after just having had a shmoopy goodbye in '54) just came off as very couple-y, for lack of a better word . I almost wondered if we were suddenly even further than 2017 (not via time machine, just normal passage of time). It was definitely not as clear a transition as it could have been.

[blackwing]

28 minutes ago, maraleia said:

I love that it was organic but I guess I just want to see Sakina get some more action on the show and that includes her character's home life.

I think then that you want Sakina to be on a different show.  Because on this one, she's a secondary (or maybe even tertiary) character, and her home life isn't important.  Her home life doesn't advance the plot at all, so I don't think they would make time for it.  If you want to see lesbians being lesbians, then this isn't the show for that.  I actually think the show did a great job with her character.  She's an Indian American woman in a position of authority, and she happens to be a lesbian.  As mentioned upthread, it was depicted as being refreshingly normal.

I am hoping this show gets renewed.  There is a lot of promise, and the concept is different.  I know there is "Legends of Tomorrow" and the upcoming "Time After Time" that are also in the time travel genre.  The TV world is replete with police procedurals and medical procedurals and lawyers.  I hope NBC gives this show another shot.

[cigar95]

If this is indeed the end of Timeless, I'll be disappointed but not surprised.  I'll also be satisfied with the way they ended it - open ended with a big reveal, but not with an actual cliffhanger.  If gives the viewers a chance to be creative and imagine their own continuing story, if they wish.

I would love to have seen the show's "time travel bible" where they've set the logic for what they can and can't do, and what are the implications as multiple timelines appear. I thought I had it figured out at one point, but eventually realized a flaw in the paradigm I'd constructed that was inconsistent with what we'd seen. (The show itself was not 100% consistent either, but mine was a fatal flaw that couldn't be hidden under the rug.)

I said more than once on the IMDB forum that I'm pretty much convinced that it's not possible to create a time travel model which is interesting and coherent, and still produce a story that is watchable in an episodic format. Either things change "too much" to produce a story we can keep up with or care about, or things are too fixed to make their jumps of any consequence, or the paradigm is too complex to grasp, or some other possibility.

If the show does get cancelled, I hope Kripke will find a way to describe where they had been planning to go with it.  A few years ago, I was one of the few who watched a show called "Defying Gravity". After the show wasn't renewed, the showrunner released a couple of online articles describing in pretty fine detail what the future of the story would have been. So this wouldn't be the first time.

And now we wait twelve weeks or so to learn about the future.

[saber5055]

I still don't know WTH Rittenhouse is. I just wish it would go away. Now MOM is a RH bigwig? And Lucy never got wind of that, or was introduced to her "heritage" before now? Please, make RH go away.

Sen. McCarthy was treated like a big joke by the Eyeball crew. What a missed opportunity to explore that era a little bit instead of just ranking on McCarthy and moving on.

Best line of the night was Wyatt, laughing when McCarthy lit up the cig while expounding on Reds being a cancer. "Ha ha, cancer." This episode actually made me like Wyatt for the first time, especially when he took down the two henchmen, then put McCarthy out for "one hour. Maybe two."

[saber5055]

I see no one has addressed the 1950s bra comment. I don't know about bras in the 50s, but YES, bras in the 60s were pointy and called "bullet bras." Watch old Star Treks (the ones with Kirk) and you will see that every alien woman on every distant planet wore a bullet bra.

[iMonrey]

Quote

I said more than once on the IMDB forum that I'm pretty much convinced that it's not possible to create a time travel model which is interesting and coherent, and still produce a story that is watchable in an episodic format. Either things change "too much" to produce a story we can keep up with or care about, or things are too fixed to make their jumps of any consequence, or the paradigm is too complex to grasp, or some other possibility.

I think what you're saying is true to a certain extent, but I have argued all along that there's a happy medium in there somewhere. Since the show does not aspire to be especially intellectual and is more lighthearted than thoughtful, little changes in the timeline could be treated in an amusing yet consistent way. For example, if the character of Agent Christopher keeps changing every time they come back from a trip into the past. One day's she's a woman, the next day she's a man, the next day she's black, the next day she's white. You get the picture - a running gag. The time travelers keep screwing up things that don't turn the whole world upside down but have an immediate affect on them, personally, and their mission. Or Mason himself is different after every time traveling trip, and/or the nature and name of his organization. There could just be different people working there every time they came back. 

On another note, I rolled my eyes at the trope used in this episode wherein every hospital patient on TV has a big picture window with a scenic view of the most iconic landmark of that particular city. In San Francisco? You can see the Golden Gate bridge from your window. In Paris? You can see the Eiffel Tower from your window. In Seattle? You can see the Space Needle from your window. In Los Angeles? You can see the Hollywood sign from your window. That was some expensive view Mason booked for Jiya.

[Randomosity]

12 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

On another note, I rolled my eyes at the trope used in this episode wherein every hospital patient on TV has a big picture window with a scenic view of the most iconic landmark of that particular city. In San Francisco? You can see the Golden Gate bridge from your window. In Paris? You can see the Eiffel Tower from your window. In Seattle? You can see the Space Needle from your window. In Los Angeles? You can see the Hollywood sign from your window. That was some expensive view Mason booked for Jiya.

At least in this one, there ended up being a specific purpose for that (her vision/time slip). I was definitely groaning at the same thing, until that happened. Realistic? No, but there had to be a recognizable thing for us to see change.

[henripootel]

46 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

On another note, I rolled my eyes at the trope used in this episode wherein every hospital patient on TV has a big picture window with a scenic view of the most iconic landmark of that particular city.

Oh, I rolled right along with you on that one.  Not for nothing, but I knew an actual, real-life room with a view.  Back in the day before they tore it down, the best view of Temple Square in Salt Lake was from ... a Border's Bookstore cafe.  It was simply perfect - huge window that perfectly framed everything, like a living postcard.  Don't know what's there now - probably an office building. 

1 hour ago, saber5055 said:

actually made me like Wyatt for the first time, especially when he took down the two henchmen, then put McCarthy out for "one hour. Maybe two."

About time too - Wyatt got his ass kicked more than Worf.  Really liked when he took out McCarthy's guards quickly and elegantly - finally the Wyatt I've been waiting for.  

Also, knocking somebody out - not without risk.  I know it's tv so it's like a super-safe off switch but in reality, he could easily have ended McCarthy right there and then.  

[iMonrey]

What was Flynn alluding to when he accused McCarthy of faking his military record? Is this an actual historical fact?

And did my eyes deceive me, or did  Mrs. Flynn's name on her tombstone read "Loretta?" Loretta Flynn?

[Randomosity]

7 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

What was Flynn alluding to when he accused McCarthy of faking his military record? Is this an actual historical fact?

And did my eyes deceive me, or did  Mrs. Flynn's name on her tombstone read "Loretta?" Loretta Flynn?

Lorena, I believe.

[Dowel Jones]

Flynn's comment dealt with McCarthy's pejorative nickname "Tail Gunner Joe".  He claimed that during WWII he fired more rounds out of the tail gunner position in a B-24 (I think) than any other serviceman in the Air Corps.  While technically correct, what he never mentioned was that the plane was a derelict at the end of a runway on a Pacific island, and he spent hours (and ordnance) firing into uninhabited jungle.

[KaveDweller]

7 hours ago, basiltherat said:

Well, first of all, the old trope of 'the name guest star done it' applies to both Susannah and Annie.  Of course, mom is Evul and she does not want to go back to an alternate reality where she is dying and prefers to sacrifice a daughter for her Rittenhouse-hood.  Where does this leave Lucy's half-brother who does not have the double Rittenhouse parentage?

OK, and now to Jiya, who everyone loves, along with Rufus.  If being the fourth person on the eyeball turns her wonky, why did Anthony turn wonky when it was just TWO of them with Flynn?  And Emma looks as cray-cray as Anthony and, again, there was just two, at least until Lucy jumped on board the last time.  (By the way, I would have loved a scene of Lucy and Flynn TALKING ABOUT THINGS on the trip back.  Nobody talks about stuff!)

So, if Jiya gets wonky time travellng, does that mean you can travel outside an Eyeball (and does the fact that her EYEBALL is bleeding mean anything significant?)  If she sees multiple bridges, is it the past, while the bridge was being built, or from a future where the bridge is being repaired after some holocaust, whether Rittenhouse-made or by earthquake.

I wonder if we are all thinking about this more than the Show has.  It is fun to have another Frozen Donkey Wheel to must about.

I didn't even make that connection about her eye bleeding and the ship being called the eyeball. I thought it was just done to look creepy. Blood in someone's eye always creeps me out.

2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I think what you're saying is true to a certain extent, but I have argued all along that there's a happy medium in there somewhere. Since the show does not aspire to be especially intellectual and is more lighthearted than thoughtful, little changes in the timeline could be treated in an amusing yet consistent way. For example, if the character of Agent Christopher keeps changing every time they come back from a trip into the past. One day's she's a woman, the next day she's a man, the next day she's black, the next day she's white. You get the picture - a running gag.

That would have been hilarious, but TV shows never do stuff like that because they don't want to have consistent actors to keep things clear for viewers. This show is great at casting guest stars, but they probably thought viewers would be confused by a regular character changing faces. Agent Christopher ended up having a important arc, so she needed some consistency behind her portrayal.

But they could have just made a point of showing other random henchmen changing.

[dubbel zout]

2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

On another note, I rolled my eyes at the trope used in this episode wherein every hospital patient on TV has a big picture window with a scenic view of the most iconic landmark of that particular city.

Eh, it's visual shorthand so they don't waste time explaining where they are. It's like how there's always an empty parking spot exactly where it's needed.

[cigar95]

23 minutes ago, KaveDweller said:

But they could have just made a point of showing other random henchmen changing.

They finally gave a nod to the observation that Flynn seemed to have an unending supply of henchmen, so finally he runs out in the final episode!

[possibilities]

18 hours ago, Randomosity said:

It's far from perfect, but I kind of love it anyway.

That's where I'm at .Maybe not love, but I really enjoy it and I especially liked this episode. I see the flaws, but let it go. I'm a full-fledged nitpicker of other shows, so I understand those who do that here. I just don't feel moved to join in, for some unknown reason.

18 hours ago, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

Wyatt - "He's looking at me like I'm a piece of meat."
Lucy - "Yeah, I wonder what that feels like."

I love how this show inserts little moments like this. Social commentary in the middle of the snarky nonsense! This part of the writing has always been really good, even when the plotting itself is mediocre or just plain bad.

18 hours ago, MisterGlass said:

My only guess for why Jiya was the only one affected is that she didn't have a belted seat.  Maybe the seats keep them synced with the ship movement and she got side swiped by the time stream.  Crazy enough?

I thought it had something to do with that, too.

 

2 hours ago, saber5055 said:

This episode actually made me like Wyatt for the first time,

Me, too! I don't even know why!

Just because so far they have not developed the characters outside of Lucy, Rufus, Wyatt, and Flynn, does not mean the show couldn't or shouldn't do so if they got more episodes. It's a choice they've made, and not impossible to overcome.

I also agree that some silly timeline tweaks could be fun. They did that a little, when they had a new James Bond movie happen after that episode, and it would be fun to have running gags even if they didn't want to change the repeating characters to different actors (which I do think could be fun) if they wanted to be that ambitious). But the show seems to have decided to lean into the angst and seriousness, instead of building the comedic elements I think that's a big mistake. I think the writing isn't strong enough to carry the dramatic weight when it takes itself so seriously, and adding more campy elements would make it easier for me to handwave the inconsistencies of plot.

I thought this episode was clearly trying to wrap up all the loose ends because of it being cancelled, until the last scene with Lucy's mom, when they inserted elements that could set up a second season. I thought that part was masterfully done, because if it is over, I feel like I can live with the level of resolution/open-endedness, yet if they do come back, it won't feel like they're scrambling for a story to reboot. Some shows end with too much hanging, in a way that's unsatisfying in the extreme and begging for a wrap up, and they spared us that. There are still questions, but I don't feel itchy about it.

I don't think it takes itself seriously enough to really support deep explanations. It's just kind of medium-light drama, adventure more than a deep dive. With fun historical references and social commentary asides.

[threebluestars]

I was expecting they'd wrap up the Rittenhouse stuff (mostly for the viewer in case of a non-renewal) but set it up that they had to go back in time to reset the things they messed up, which would take some of season 2 and lead to some new kind of problem that would be the new big bad. I'm not a big Rittenhouse/big bad organization fan, so I would've liked to see them prep for a slightly different focus on season 2.

[LoneHaranguer]

5 hours ago, Sandman said:

It also occurred to me that, for a present where the incarceration and dismantling of Rittenhouse appears to be playing out, Lucy's mom (is it too late for me to call her Cool As A Cucumber Carol?) seems pretty unperturbed.

Any organization like Rittenhouse will have rival factions, and somebody in her branch had a choice of what evidence to (not) collect. The dismantling may be selective.

[Stuffy]

43 minutes ago, possibilities said:

I also agree that some silly timeline tweaks could be fun. They did that a little, when they had a new James Bond movie happen after that episode, and it would be fun to have running gags even if they didn't want to change the repeating characters to different actors (which I do think could be fun) if they wanted to be that ambitious). But the show seems to have decided to lean into the angst and seriousness, instead of building the comedic elements I think that's a big mistake. I think the writing isn't strong enough to carry the dramatic weight when it takes itself so seriously, and adding more campy elements would make it easier for me to handwave the inconsistencies of plot.

Even little things like Juliet Shakesman having a school named after her was fun in a sad episode.  Lucy actually has a school named after her.  People just don't know it's her.  

I don't want the show to become a comedy, but Abigail has shown she can handle the little comedic bits.  Just do small stuff like the episode where she fell in the window and tried to "help" by picking a lock.  The horse bit was funny too.  All three of them could use some light moments in the midst of their never-ending drama.

Edited February 22, 2017 by Stuffy

[Sandman]

Lucy's deadpan "Can't imagine what that feels like" response to Wyatt might be my favourite line of dialogue of the entire season. (Somewhere in the multiverse, Peggy Carter is downing a shot of whiskey in Lucy's honour.)

[dargosmydaddy]

OK, never mind Rufus's miraculously healing stomach wound, Jiya being the only one to be affected by the time traveling, all the Rittenhouse shenanigans, etc.-- my big question was where did Lucy and Wyatt get their outfits from? Jiya made some comment about them needing to be appropriately dressed, and then in the next scene they're appropriately dressed... did I miss something? Did Jiya abscond with a wardrobe suitcase or decide it would be wise to bring along some seventy year old money or what?

Count me among those that hope this comes back... it's easy to watch, and I love the chemistry of the main three (and now Jiya, too). Of my bubble shows, I'd prefer renewals for Emerald City and Pitch, don't get me wrong, but I wouldn't mind a second season of this, too.

[Netfoot]

20 hours ago, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

Was that flash of the bridge a pre-finished image of it or a post-apocalypic vision??

Well, there were several cranes operating on the bridge, a vintage-looking warship, and the vegetation looked less well developed... so I'd say a flash from the past.

[Tardislass]

De-lurking here. I've been watching Timeless off and on, mainly because I love it's "inspiration" Spain's 'El Ministerio del Tiempo' or Ministery of Time. However, as much as I want to like this show, it's not really doing much for me. First, it can't quite decide whether it wants to be a campy Sci-Fi comic book show or a dramatic one. Spain's version was pretty adept at finding a balance between the two-even if it was that they the writers know it's crazy but just go with it. Second, while Spain's version was a bit too long at 1.5 hours, Timeless feels choppy and not fully formed with the numerous commercials in between. To me, it always feels like they cut 10 minutes off of the script that explains the plot. 

Don't get me wrong, the main actors are the best thing about the show and really sell it. However, with the finale it just feels like the writers pushed all of their S2 ideas into 10 min because the show won't be renewed. We had Flynn, who was beginning to be a grey character instead of the villain, get arrested and now will get his vengeance again.  Then was the promise of a whole "will they/won't they" w/Lucy&Wyatt culminating with Jessica's return when the former finally get together. Lastly, we had the Mama Rittenhouse reveal and I am officially sick of this storyline. Please.make.it.stop. Though I think Mama R is only in this version of reality and coma!Mom is not part of the group.

So I'm fine either way on the future of this show. It didn't live up to its potential and if it continues it needs to go to an earlier hour-or have slightly more adult content. 

Edited February 22, 2017 by Tardislass

[Enero]

21 hours ago, methodwriter85 said:

Well, all the people who called Lucy's mother being evil...fist bump to you.

I'm guessing Jiya has some kind of sensitivity that allows her to see/experience multiple timeliness, but it causes major damage to her.

I pretty much stopped watching this show after the Pilot, but have caught a show here and there since. When watching the finale last night I thought perhaps Jiya is seeing the future?  

Edited February 22, 2017 by Enero

[Tardislass]

1 minute ago, Enero said:

I pretty much stopped watching this show after the Pilot, but have caught a show here and there since. When watching the finale last night I thought perhaps Jiya is seeing the future?  

No, she was seeing the bridge being built. Having relatives from the Bay Area-there are some old photos that show the bridge under construction. I'm wondering if she can see the past happening during one of her seizures.

[CooperTV]

21 hours ago, methodwriter85 said:

I'm guessing Jiya has some kind of sensitivity that allows her to see/experience multiple timeliness, but it causes major damage to her.

She traveled through the wormhole in the machine that is supposed to carry only three people. I think that's the consequences of that fact, what with her losing consciousness/having damaged blood vessel in her eye.

[Hanahope]

I'm confused.  Emma works for Rittenhouse?  Then why was she in the 1870s?  And why didn't she take out Flynn earlier?

Im not sure I'd come back for season 2, if there is one.  Just too many plot holes. 

[CooperTV]

3 hours ago, Sandman said:

Lucy's deadpan "Can't imagine what that feels like" response to Wyatt might be my favourite line of dialogue of the entire season. (Somewhere in the multiverse, Peggy Carter is downing a shot of whiskey in Lucy's honour.)

I'd say such a comment was period-appropriate for Peggy Carter (even though it did sound heavy-handed sometimes). But Lucy's is 21st century young woman from academy and would supposedly know that men who benefit from patriarchy are also victims of the same patriarchy and also could be sexually harassed and raped.

I found Lucy's comment kind of out of place in the show, to be honest.

ETA: Just wanted to add that somehow they could come up with Lucy's grandfather, a clear example of a person who both benefited from patriarchy and was a victim of it. But the Timeless writer seemed too clueless to make the obvious parallels there and tie it organically with Lucy's snark.

Edited February 22, 2017 by CooperTV

[dubbel zout]

3 hours ago, possibilities said:

Social commentary in the middle of the snarky nonsense! This part of the writing has always been really good, even when the plotting itself is mediocre or just plain bad.

I wish they'd been able to do more with Rufus in this respect. He got some moments, but Malcolm Barrett was so wasted.

3 hours ago, possibilities said:

I think the writing isn't strong enough to carry the dramatic weight when it takes itself so seriously, and adding more campy elements would make it easier for me to handwave the inconsistencies of plot.

I agree. Having a few running jokes because of history changes wouldn't undercut things.

36 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

Emma works for Rittenhouse?  Then why was she in the 1870s?  And why didn't she take out Flynn earlier?

Yes, Emma works for Rittenhouse. She might have been in the past as a safety measure, e.g., in case other pilots were killed. Maybe she didn't take out Flynn earlier because she wanted to see what he was up to? We don't know how serious she is about Rittenhouse. She might be something of a mercenary without them knowing it.