S01.E14: I Call Marriage

[Jax7917]

Now that they showed Kate meeting horse guy at the cabin in previews , I don't think they'll do the deed . I guarantee she just went there to tell him she's not cheating on her fiance or something to that effect. 

I loved this show in the beginning but I'm starting to find my eyes wandering now . It's a nice show but every episode feels the same to me . Jack doing romantic gestures for Rebecca and being perfect  , William saying he barely has any time left , Beth being bossy , Kate looking like she wants to barf in Toby's presence ( seriously , why did she accept his proposal?) , Kevin having girl issues and not much else to him , etc .. I need a good surprise with this show 

[Biggie B]

Here is a picture of the actor who plays Toby without the padding. Oh my goodness. I actually thought that was the actor who plays Kevin.

I am all for Kate coming to the realization that either (a)Toby is not her soul mate or at least (b) they shouldn't get married so quickly, but I don't love that it may be Duke who brings this epiphany about (if that indeed is what's coming; I have no idea). I am pretty put off by Duke. I find his behavior gross. Even if the staff is permitted to mingle (so to speak) with the clientele, his manner comes off as vulgar and weird. And I understand that Kate is an adult and may do what she wishes and will have to deal with any consequences, but still...he's just so awful. So sour, so bitter and hostile. I am a horse person (see my avatar) and I wouldn't let Duke within 50 feet of my horses! Good for him that he is true to himself, I'll give him that much - but the way he speaks to Kate is not something that comes off as cute, flirtatious, or attractive.

I'm on the fence about the "I call marriage" thing. As usual, with most soap operas, the lack of communication fuels the tension and drama. Not once did we see Randall explain to Beth exactly what was happening at work. I think if she knew about the Sanjay situation, she'd support Randall in his effort to keep his accounts and show his boss that he's capable of maintaining his work load, and wants to do so. Beth is a shrewd pragmatist, which is why I really like her character. If Randall had explained what had happened earlier in the day, I truly think Beth would've said, "Go!" and would have made sure her daughter knew that even though Dad couldn't be there, her mother, sister, and grandfather would be there for her. Seeing Randall sitting there at the tournament, not paying attention, was annoying. As far as we know, Beth might've been getting annoyed with him for not being fully "there." I find that frustrating.
 

[zumpie]

  Quote

You know, this is a good point...however, I actually started thinking about something. Jack's been lucky in that he's always had Rebecca as his partner in crime, so to speak, to pick up the slack. Sure, Jack goes to their games and he works hard and he's still able to make time for his kids, but that's because he's always had Rebecca there so he can do all of these things.

Jack is not in love with his job. If Rebecca was bringing in her share of the money, I strongly suspect that Jack would be happy to cut down his hours to do his half of the housework/child raising. Rebecca and Jack made the decision that he works long hours earning money for the family while she spends long hours taking care of the family.  If she wants to switch it up and earn all the money for the family (doing a job she likes or hates), then I bet Jack would be supportive and probably become the stay at home dad. 

The problem is that she wants to do a job she loves that pays very little (assuming the size of audience they play for, the type of music they play and the general low income performers get paid for those kinds of gigs and how much they must pay for logistics)  where she is away for weeks at a time while Jack has to take care of the household and continue to work 12 hour days at the job he hates? That's not totally fair.

If Jack has been lucky that Rebecca was willing to be the homemaker (and he is - it is tough to pull constant 12 hour shifts when your spouse also works) she is also lucky that Jack has been working 12 hours shift at a job he hates so that they can have a comfortable lifestyle and send their child to an expensive school. If they want to rethink the expensive school, downsize the house and/or adjust to a lower income, Jack might be able to cut down his hours to say 7 hours a day and also be the primary home maker and allow her to travel to gigs, but that is something they need to discuss.

If it is a one-time two week trip, they can probably manage. If it is to become a regular thing or the trips are longer, they have to rethink their finances and the distribution of the workload.

Exactly. Also the point that teenagers (especially THREE of them) sometimes require more, not less supervision than younger kids is very true..

Much of my issues with the show as a whole is how they confuse "empowerment" with "entitlement"....and they aren't even remotely the same thing. And the "I call marriage"? Total bullshit. Mr. zumpie and I are not always both at our ONE kid's things and we both work----it's never even remotely been an issue for either or us or our daughter. One parent is generally plenty for the kid to be happy....

And, honestly if I or Mr. zumpie individually earned anything NEAR what Randall earns solo (actually even half or a quarter)---so the other one could easily stay home and/or work part time? Neither would ever make a peep about one of us not being able to attend something because their boss/client got demanding (and, again, I've experienced similar and I make about 10% what Randall does) and they needed to be at something

[AriAu]

Quote

I loved this show in the beginning but I'm starting to find my eyes wandering now

So, I binge-watched through the Christmas episode and have watched the last few episodes "live" (ok, on the dvr). This episode was boring and way too soapy compared to others and other than Sophie, very little happened to move the stories forward. In addition, the flash backs were not used as effectively, although maybe later episodes will make them more telling or important-again, maybe I suffer from having binged.

I found Sophie's reactions very appropriate for the situation of someone who: (i) gets a call out of the blue from a now very famous ex; (ii) cheated on her to destroy their marriage, something he did not dispute; (iii) left her obviously very, very hurt and lead her to dark places; (iv) was obviously a very deep love from a very important part of her life; and (v) had not bothered to figure out what was going on with her and her life, altho he did facebook stalk her. I would not have given such a person very much rope and would have reacted badly to a fairly overly dramatic approach, especially once it became clear that he was still very immature.....and everything he did and said was very, very immature for a 32 year old.

Also, when Rebecca (in flashback) is telling the story at the "divorce dinner" with the Miguels, Kevin was trying to sneak a girl out-why didn't she say sneaking Sophie out. These are their best friends-don't they know that Sophie is the love of his life since they were 10?

EDITED TO CHANGE OLIVIA TO SOPHIE-BRAIN CRAMP

Edited February 9, 2017 by AriAu

[OtterMommy]

Just now, AriAu said:

I found Olivia's reactions very appropriate for the situation of someone who: (i) gets a call out of the blue from a now very famous ex; (ii) cheated on her to destroy their marriage, something he did not dispute; (iii) left her obviously very, very hurt and lead her to dark places; (iv) was obviously a very deep love from a very important part of her life; and (v) had not bothered to figure out what was going on with her and her life, altho he did facebook stalk her. I would not have given such a person very much rope and would have reacted badly to a fairly overly dramatic approach, especially once it became clear that he was still very immature.....and everything he did and said was very, very immature for a 32 year old.

I had to read this twice...I agree with you, but I think you mean Sophie and not Olivia.

Yeah, she's obviously hurt...maybe not crying every day hurt, but the kind of hurt that you can push to the back burner and ignore...until the catalyst shows up on your doorstep.  As a viewer, I'm not a fan of the Sophie/Kevin reunion (but, again, I'd be there for a Sophie/Kate reunion), but as much as I didn't want her to come back to the diner, I understand why she did it (even if I still think it was a dumb thing to do)

[Guest]

Dang.  Sullivan's lost a lot of weight, even since Stranger Things.  

I actually thought Sophie was too emotional for 12 years and a whole second marriage to have gone by.  That's a long time to get over it.  And if I was angry, I'd have shut the door on him, not play little 'come meet me at x diner' games.  

[roughing it]

This hasn't been mentioned yet, but I picked up on it.  When at the diner over lava fries, Sophie said something to Kevin that she was surprised he was eating the fries, because she said he usually eats like a rabbit.  Is eating like a rabbit Kevin's response to Kate's weight issues?  hmmmm

[JudyObscure]

2 hours ago, Drumpf1737 said:

 If I find you attractive I'll let you know that I'm interested. If I noted your presence and didn't give you any indication I'm interested, see "baloney" and "dick" comments above.In continuing to insist there's nothing wrong with approaching/encroaching on women in their space the point is being proven. What the fuck is so hard about leaving women the fuck alone? The only motherfuckers that insist on telling you that you're pretty or you smell good are creeps, who have a problem with boundaries.

I think the guys who tell you you're pretty probably think they're just letting you know they're interested.  I'm sort of curious now about how you let guys know you're interested?  How do you define "encroaching on their space?"  Sitting on the same chair?  Standing in the same office?

I have a son who is very tall and seems to be  considered good looking by many people.  He has always hated what he calls, "girls giving him the googly eye."  He just wishes they would leave him alone to do his work and not try to distract him with made up questions. Some stuff is as transparent as Minnie Mouse dropping her hanky in front of Mickey. Other guys notice and kid him about it.  

 The obvious problem is, if everyone left everyone else alone no one would ever get with anyone else and the human race would die out.    I think that's why both sexes have to put up with a certain amount of unwanted overtures while waiting for the wanted one to come along.  That's why it's good to practice up on the withering eye roll.

[luna1122]

20 minutes ago, roughing it said:

This hasn't been mentioned yet, but I picked up on it.  When at the diner over lava fries, Sophie said something to Kevin that she was surprised he was eating the fries, because she said he usually eats like a rabbit.  Is eating like a rabbit Kevin's response to Kate's weight issues?  hmmmm

I took it to be more an 'I'm an actor whose job it is to look hot with no shirt' thing, but that could be part of it too.

Edited February 9, 2017 by luna1122

[topanga]

1 hour ago, Biggie B said:

I'm on the fence about the "I call marriage" thing. As usual, with most soap operas, the lack of communication fuels the tension and drama. Not once did we see Randall explain to Beth exactly what was happening at work. I think if she knew about the Sanjay situation, she'd support Randall in his effort to keep his accounts and show his boss that he's capable of maintaining his work load, and wants to do so. Beth is a shrewd pragmatist, which is why I really like her character. If Randall had explained what had happened earlier in the day, I truly think Beth would've said, "Go!" and would have made sure her daughter knew that even though Dad couldn't be there, her mother, sister, and grandfather would be there for her. Seeing Randall sitting there at the tournament, not paying attention, was annoying. As far as we know, Beth might've been getting annoyed with him for not being fully "there." I find that frustrating.

Didn't he try to tell her, though? I seem to recall Randall telling Beth that he had to go to dinner with his client-- he mentioned that there was this guy kicking his ass at work. Was that the scene?

[Enigma X]

I just started watching the latest episode and am only 10 minutes in. I have not read the replies here either. The most shocking moment for me thus far is that Marla Gibbs is alive. I thought she had died years ago.

[Biggie B]

5 minutes ago, topanga said:

Didn't he try to tell her, though? I seem to recall Randall telling Beth that he had to go to dinner with his client-- he mentioned that there was this guy kicking his ass at work. Was that the scene?

He did, but it didn't seem terribly detailed. I really love Beth and I want to believe that had Randall truly spelled out exactly what was happening, giving precise details about the insertion of Sanjay into his workload, that Beth would've said, Get back there and kick his ass back.

[Lady Calypso]

So, I've been thinking a lot about Duke/Dick's behaviour. I've come to the conclusion that I don't think he's veered over the line to harassment. Not quite, anyway. I think these types of situations are not black and white; in fact, these situations have a lot of grey areas so there's leeway on when it's crossing the line and when it's not. For me, Horse Dick is strictly in the grey area because he hasn't done anything that would constitute sexual harassment. But for me, he's gotten really close and he has the potential to cross the line. 

Yes, Kate has told him a few times to leave her alone and he hasn't. Yes, he's said highly inappropriate things that he shouldn't as an employee of the camp. He should know better, yet he doesn't. The only reason why I say that it hasn't quite crossed harassment because of Kate. 

That's not to say that I like the guy, though. He has said some very inappropriate comments toward Kate. It starts with his initial interest in Kate. Sure, informing her that he's interested is not a crime. Continuing to let her know that he's still interested is even not a bad thing. The issue here is when he decided to let her know that "they will happen", which happened to be his response to Kate telling him that she has a fiance. The fact that he decided to respond to knowing that she was unavailable with "We'll see"? He didn't know her name at that point. He didn't get to know her as a person. He had no idea who this fiance was. All he saw was an attractive woman and he decided that he wanted her. It feels aggressive and a bit out of line toward a woman who you don't even know. But whatever, it's not harassment then. It's just inappropriate.

Their second meeting has Duke taking the phone out of Kate's hand and telling her that "her voice is annoying/scaring the horses...and me". Quite an unexpected turnaround from their first interaction, followed by Duke telling her that she should just leave because it won't change her. Alright, that's his opinion and he can share it. Whatever; Kate seemed to take his advice since she apologized to him later on. 

This episode had him first running into Kate and her friend, he flirts, and both women look disgusted. He doesn't seem to know boundaries, but it is seemingly an innocent comment. 

But then this episode has him running into Toby and his first response is to tell him about all the women they can get with because these women "drop a few stones and are feeling frisky". And then he utters something about especially on Thursdays because they serve wine (I didn't quite get the entirety of that sentence). I would say that's douchey behaviour, at best. He also doesn't know that this is Toby so he thinks he's giving some "bro-advice" to some guy he's never met. Also, the implication that they can get with women going through an emotional point in their lives? Even if Duke doesn't believe in it, he's certainly seen these women believe in it, and seemingly for a long time, and he's perfectly ok with sleeping with these women, especially when they also might be drunk. I'd say that's pretty awful behaviour. Of course, Duke would never say these things to the woman's face because that's when he would get reported. 

And then his response to when he puts two and two together with Toby/Kate? "Awkward." What's awkward? The fact that you're interested in his fiancee and think that Kate's going to leave him for you? And that gets Toby paranoid because now he thinks there's some sort of interest with Duke and Kate, so of course this sets off what's already an emotional period for him. 

Mmm. So maybe it is almost sexual harassment, especially if he's truly implying that he sleeps with the women when he knows they may not all be in the right frame of mind. 

My hope for how this arc will end is with Kate realizing that Duke is right with some of his advice and by the end of the month, she thanks him for enlightening her on some of her issues, and then she goes on her way and never sees him again. No relationship, no love triangle being enacted, just acknowledgment that Duke has seen a lot, has some knowledge that is useful, but she doesn't have to resort to having a crush on him or getting into a relationship or affair, which would really undermine her character. Duke may bring up some good points, but it shouldn't dismiss his awful behaviour. He can be right and still be an ass. 

[Cowgirl]

23 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

Mmm. So maybe it is almost sexual harassment, especially if he's truly implying that he sleeps with the women when he knows they may not all be in the right frame of mind. 

Yeah, his whole attitude from the start reminds me of the people our office prosecutes for child sexual abuse or for abuse of a vulnerable adult.  He preys upon women who may be vulnerable, out of their normal circumstances, some of whom may be working on mental health issues. (This is not to say everyone in this "immersive weight loss experience" is vulnerable, etc! I just mean that predators get good at selecting and grooming their prey based on who they see as the most vulnerable.)

I'm also with those who hope that jerky horsey Duke will be a catalyst to help Kate realize she's not that in love with Toby.  Yes, I hate Duke too and find him repulsive. But, Kate never seems that into Toby or Toby's happiness.  I actually felt bad for him when he asked her to do something nice for him because, other than her being there for his surgery, she never seems to do anything for him. I just don't think she cares about him as much as he does for her.  That being said,  I hated the petulant way he gave her the ring.  He took what should have been a fond, memory-making occasion, and spoiled it because he felt hurt.

I was glad another poster above mentioned Kevin sneaking a girl out of the basement, because that bugged me since I heard it.  Maybe Rebecca and Jack were laughing it off for their friends, but I can't believe they didn't seem more furious about that. Kevin should have been moved out of the basement. If he still couldn't get along with his brother, then move Randall down to the "bachelor pad" because he was more likely not to misbehave. Does Rebecca really think now is a good time to leave for a few weeks?  Who KNOWS what Kevin will get up to with less supervision. 

I'm worried Randall's tremors may be the first signs of M.S.  The writers dropped a clue when they mentioned Beth's parent (was it her mom, or was that what her dad died of?) who had it.  Then again, that little comment could just have been a little red herring, put there to plant the worry in the viewer's mind. 

Not that any couple is perfect, but I was sad to see the breakdown in communication between Randall and Beth. I was really grumpy about her calling "marriage" until I read one or two of the posts several pages back where it was mentioned that, maybe she did it to remind Randall about the importance of family, and that she needed his help in dealing with these two, soon-to-be-sad little girls. 

My question is, why did Beth have the girls start their memory box NOW, while William is still alive?  I realize there are no hard and fast rules when it comes to death and grief, but it would seem that that kind of memory box would be a tool to relieve grief and celebrate things you love about someone who is gone, and that it is a place to put things that make you remember that person, but which things would stab your heart if you looked at them every day. It just seemed like an odd project to start while he's still around. 

[spaceghostess]

7 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

And then his response to when he puts two and two together with Toby/Kate? "Awkward." What's awkward? The fact that you're interested in his fiancee and think that Kate's going to leave him for you? And that gets Toby paranoid because now he thinks there's some sort of interest with Duke and Kate, so of course this sets off what's already an emotional period for him. 

This right here is when his behavior when so far over the line that I can't take a single thing he says/does as anything other than predatory and possibly personality disordered. His "Awkward" was a deliberate manipulation to interfere with their relationship. He didn't actually mean the situation was awkward; "awkward" isn't even on this guy's radar, otherwise he wouldn't say any of the things he says to the women there. He said that to sow seeds of doubt between two strangers so he could then sleazily capitalize on that doubt. Is the show working toward making the point that if Toby and Kate's relationship could be so easily disrupted by the machinations of a douchenozzle, it wasn't that solid to begin with? If so, the writers have chosen one of the most outdated tropes with which to illustrate that point. Also, they've taken an insultingly reductive view of Kate by making her act like a junior high girl around this guy. The things he's already said to Kate and her camp friend should have been enough to turn her off in a serious way (not the "boys are yucky" way they've shown thus far), but to have her opening up to him after that bullshit he pulled in the parking lot? Really, show? Kate couldn't figure out what he was doing? The way she's being written now feels really condescending. Just because a woman might be less experienced with horndogs following her around doesn't mean she's an idiot who can't read people. She worked in Hollywood, ffs--one would think she learned to parse out the phonies to some extent.

I'd love to talk to the women on this writing staff and find out how much they have to do with any of this bullshit.

Edited February 10, 2017 by spaceghostess
typo

[Lady Calypso]

2 minutes ago, spaceghostess said:

The way she's being written now feels really condescending. Just because a woman might be less experienced with horndogs following her around doesn't mean she's an idiot who can't read people. She worked in Hollywood, ffs--one would think she learned to parse out the phonies to some extent.

Especially if you take Rebecca's bandmate (Sam?) and his comment about Jack earlier this episode and Rebecca shut him down hard. I don't know if they meant for that to be a parallel, but I'm realizing that for me, it is a parallel in how both act toward men who insight their advice with their respective fiance/husband. Granted, Duke's mostly making comments about Kate and how they'll end up together, while Sam was stating that if Jack was a good husband that he'd let her go on this tour. Both still douchey remarks, though. But Rebecca shut it down while Kate has not told Duke that he's being disrespectful to her as well as Toby and that he needs to stop.

It's making Kate look bad. Not as bad as Duke, but it really does make it seem like she's mostly fine with it. Also, I guarantee that if she kept her foot down and continued to shut him down, he'd either have to back off or he would go so far and she'd be able to report him for harassment. Duke seems like an Alpha Male and either way, Kate's reaction toward him will determine if he continues or not. He's probably reading her body language that makes him think that it's ok, but if she stood up to him, there's a chance that he wouldn't want to try to get with a strong woman and he'd stop. At least, that's how I've read Duke from his behaviour and the women he chooses to prey on (yes, I say prey now because of his conversation with Toby heavily implying that he sleeps with the women at the camp because they're weaker minded and easy to manipulate). 

[Cowgirl]

Forgot to say in my recent post that, I wonder if Duke has been demoted or at least switched around to a position where he doesn't interact as much with clients because of previous infractions. Yes, he should have been fired, but maybe some manager was one of those who hates to fire someone, and thus moved his sorry butt to a position with less client contact. 

If he is the horse wrangler, why is he wiping down the exercise equipment?  Or maybe that was just a jerky way to get to Kate when he saw that she was alone. 

[ShadowFacts]

54 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

My hope for how this arc will end is with Kate realizing that Duke is right with some of his advice and by the end of the month, she thanks him for enlightening her on some of her issues, and then she goes on her way and never sees him again. No relationship, no love triangle being enacted, just acknowledgment that Duke has seen a lot, has some knowledge that is useful, but she doesn't have to resort to having a crush on him or getting into a relationship or affair, which would really undermine her character. Duke may bring up some good points, but it shouldn't dismiss his awful behaviour. He can be right and still be an ass. 

I hope she doesn't thank him for anything.  He doesn't have any special insight into her or her situation, because he doesn't know a damn thing about her.  He doesn't care about helping her and he has zero respect for her.  He said it himself, "I'm not being a dick, I am a dick."  He's a proud dick, too.  I thought they would have Toby smack him down (but his heart can't take it).  I'll be even happier with Kate delivering a verbal takedown. 

[spaceghostess]

14 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

Especially if you take Rebecca's bandmate (Sam?) and his comment about Jack earlier this episode and Rebecca shut him down hard. I don't know if they meant for that to be a parallel, but I'm realizing that for me, it is a parallel in how both act toward men who insight their advice with their respective fiance/husband. Granted, Duke's mostly making comments about Kate and how they'll end up together, while Sam was stating that if Jack was a good husband that he'd let her go on this tour. Both still douchey remarks, though. But Rebecca shut it down while Kate has not told Duke that he's being disrespectful to her as well as Toby and that he needs to stop.

 

Heh, the band guy's name isn't Sam, I just call him that because he played Sam on True Blood and I'm too lazy to remember his current character's name--my bad!

ITA that Kate not having shut this guy down with extreme prejudice makes the character look bad. The writing for her these past couple episodes has been retro and paternalistic. There had to have been a better way to make her figure out that Toby isn't "the one" or make her choose herself, or whatever the show is trying to accomplish. Did a sleazy guy really have to be the one to trigger her self examination? How about a strong fellow female camper she could befriend?

Edited February 9, 2017 by spaceghostess

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, spaceghostess said:

Heh, the band guy's name isn't Sam, I just call him that because he played Sam on True Blood and I'm too lazy to remember his current character's name--my bad!

I think his name is Ben.  But the actor is also named Sam!  

[spaceghostess]

I also think that the fact that we're debating the character of Duke at all indicates serious tone deafness on the writers' part. Someone (or "someones") up in there seems to have missed the myriad cultural memos through the last couple of decades re: what women appreciate and what we don't.

ETA: The same goes for how Toby has been written much of the time.

7 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I think his name is Ben.  But the actor is also named Sam!  

LOL, now I can make that my excuse for being a lazy-ass and calling him Sam. ;)

Edited February 9, 2017 by spaceghostess

[OtterMommy]

1 hour ago, Lady Calypso said:

Mmm. So maybe it is almost sexual harassment, especially if he's truly implying that he sleeps with the women when he knows they may not all be in the right frame of mind. 

 

I actually don't think that's sexual harrassment.

If he is truly implying that he knows the women may not be in the right frame of mind, it sounds like he is admitting that he is taking advantage of their inability to give informed consent--and that's not sexual harassment.  That's sexual assault.*

*Not that he has sexually assaulted Kate.  But, from the way you describe it-and I don't disagree--if that were his MO and it did go all the way, I could definitely argue the sexual assault angle.

[kili]

Quote

I also think that the fact that we're debating the character of Duke at all indicates serious tone deafness on the writers' part. Someone (or "someones") up in there seems to have missed the myriad cultural memos through the last couple of decades re: what women appreciate and what we don't.

Or maybe they have read the memo and are writing a show filled with real people. In this same episode, they showed Rebecca shutting down a guy. Last episode, Sloane chose not to be the "safe choice".  Beth takes no crap from anybody anywhere at anytime. That's three examples of women who could have written the memo and would have torn Duke a new one. 

But, maybe the writers are telling us that Kate is vulnerable. She's not vulnerable to all things. She can chase off crazy ex-girlfriends, read the riot act to crazy new girlfriends and stand her ground against a rude teen (harder than it looks), but like all humans, she can be tough in one area of her social life and an emotional mess in others. 

So, she (one woman on the show) may not be able to shut down Duke. He may prey on her biggest fears or appeal to her in some strange way. While I don't think that men should behave like Duke, there are some women who do respond (and those guys respond to it like some kind of slot machine. It may pay out only every one thousandth time, but they are going to double down on their strategy and cross their fingers it will work again). Part of her recovery to being a stronger person, a person she likes, will be for her to learn how to respond to the Duke's in this world.

I don't think the writers want us to like Duke. I think they want us to understand that Kate needs to work on her self-esteem in some areas. She's a tiger defending Kevin, but doubts herself. 

[halleygee]

It really bugged me that Beth "called marriage" for a school chess tournament that they hardly knew about it. I can't see, in that situation, giving that ultimatum. Especially when he's been taking time away from work lately to be with William. Did he even mention that it was a client dinner and the whole thing with Sanjay? I can't imagine she wouldn't understand. 

The Kevin and Sophie storyline just kept getting worse and worse. The only thing I liked about it is we got to see Marla Gibbs!

During the romantic apartment scene I just kept thinking how much it would've cost to purchase all those lights Jack had put up lol. 

[Lady Calypso]

7 minutes ago, halleygee said:

It really bugged me that Beth "called marriage" for a school chess tournament that they hardly knew about it. I can't see, in that situation, giving that ultimatum. Especially when he's been taking time away from work lately to be with William. Did he even mention that it was a client dinner and the whole thing with Sanjay? I can't imagine she wouldn't understand. 

I don't mind that she did, mostly because I think she was seeing signs of him pulling him away and living in denial about William and the whole situation, so she was trying to keep him from distancing himself. She already saw him bailing on the therapy session, she saw his reaction to Tess staying up to play chess with William, and then him saying that he had a client dinner probably had her thinking about why he chose the dinner over the chess tournament. And it wasn't like she was wrong. I think part of him is spiraling with the inevitability of William's death, and now with his changing role at work, it seemed like he's been trying to take on too much to hold onto the life that he wants to be perfect. I think it manifested in his shaking hand (I personally don't think it's an illness but just the stress getting to him, much like when Beth told the story of him going blind eight years ago). I can see why Beth might want to call marriage in this particular situation, just in case it was him pulling away to not deal with William dying. I'd say after being married to her for at least a decade, she would know him as well as his family does. 

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, Cowgirl said:

My question is, why did Beth have the girls start their memory box NOW, while William is still alive?  I realize there are no hard and fast rules when it comes to death and grief, but it would seem that that kind of memory box would be a tool to relieve grief and celebrate things you love about someone who is gone, and that it is a place to put things that make you remember that person, but which things would stab your heart if you looked at them every day. It just seemed like an odd project to start while he's still around. 

I had the same question- particularly when they put in a piece from the chess set you'd think they'd continue to play with until the end.

[dcubed]

On 2/8/2017 at 1:57 PM, zumpie said:

I noticed Kid Kate didn't look all that overweight, either....both of them were about the same as my slightly chubby daughter, who is nowhere and probably never will be the morbidly obese Metz is. Just as this show has financials that make zero sense, so they apparently don't understand "levels of fat" (and haven't for awhile).

Both younger actresses ARE the case of "you need to diet and exercise more and you'll probably always have to largely watch what you eat". Metz is "morbidly obese and should be under a physician's care" (and I'm not being mean, I'm stating a fact).

I frequently feel as if they really need to have an intern do a google search because their ignorance of basic facts is irritating and embarrassing

I was that slightly chubby girl at 15 (size 11 jean in a 5' body) that needed to diet and exercise more.  Starting at 18, I gained 10-15 pounds a year and ended up morbidly obese.  Not every morbidly obese person is morbidly obese from childhood.  Take someone with a problematic relationship with food and exercise, combine that with a rotten metabolism and horrific genetics and then add a psychologically devastating event to it and before you know it, you're looking at morbid obesity. 

[dcubed]

On 2/8/2017 at 4:10 PM, Winston9-DT3 said:

I don't think either of these is accurate.  Obese is usually defined as BMI over 30.  At 5'4", I would be 'normal' weight at 145 but obese at 175, by the standard BMI definitions, so only 30 lbs 'overweight'.  

https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/adult/defining.html

Very true.  I am 40 pounds overweight but my BMI is 35 and I am considered obese by the medical community. 

[MsChicklet]

Duke is an employee of the camp. Clients should be absolutely off-limits. His behavior should be cause for discipline, if not outright firing.

Kate has possibly gotten the message from society that, as a fat woman, she should be grateful for any crumbs of attention she gets. It's why she's thrown by Duke's PUA routine (negging, violating boundaries, going alpha). Her instincts are telling her it's wrong. But she may not have had to deal with guys like this the way Rebecca or Sophie have, so she's not sure how to handle it. My hope is that she tells Duke that it doesn't matter that she's engaged, even if she wasn't she's not interested in him and he is to leave her alone from now on. Or else.

Hopefully, the mares at the stable get as sick of Duke as we are and kick him in the head. Repeatedly.

[JudyObscure]

4 hours ago, Cowgirl said:

Yeah, his whole attitude from the start reminds me of the people our office prosecutes for child sexual abuse or for abuse of a vulnerable adult.  He preys upon women who may be vulnerable, out of their normal circumstances, some of whom may be working on mental health issues. (This is not to say everyone in this "immersive weight loss experience" is vulnerable, etc! I just mean that predators get good at selecting and grooming their prey based on who they see as the most vulnerable.)

Why would Duke see Kate as the most vulnerable? She's not sobbing alone in a corner or hiding in her cabin, if anything her sarcastic  attitude toward the activities makes her seem stronger and more independent. He's seen that she has friends and a cell phone and could leave in a second.

 Kate is not a child. She is not mentally or physically disabled, she  isn't in a wheel chair, she doesn't have Downs or severe autism. She is not more likely to be mentally ill  than the average thin person and any woman who ever went on a vacation is out of her normal circumstances.

   Kate is a smart, independent, adult woman who happens to be fat.  I think it's insulting to her to compare anyone who comes on to her  to a pedophile.

[Granny58]

9 hours ago, Biggie B said:

Here is a picture of the actor who plays Toby without the padding. Oh my goodness. I actually thought that was the actor who plays Kevin.

I am all for Kate coming to the realization that either (a)Toby is not her soul mate or at least (b) they shouldn't get married so quickly, but I don't love that it may be Duke who brings this epiphany about (if that indeed is what's coming; I have no idea). I am pretty put off by Duke. I find his behavior gross. Even if the staff is permitted to mingle (so to speak) with the clientele, his manner comes off as vulgar and weird. And I understand that Kate is an adult and may do what she wishes and will have to deal with any consequences, but still...he's just so awful. So sour, so bitter and hostile. I am a horse person (see my avatar) and I wouldn't let Duke within 50 feet of my horses! Good for him that he is true to himself, I'll give him that much - but the way he speaks to Kate is not something that comes off as cute, flirtatious, or attractive.

I'm on the fence about the "I call marriage" thing. As usual, with most soap operas, the lack of communication fuels the tension and drama. Not once did we see Randall explain to Beth exactly what was happening at work. I think if she knew about the Sanjay situation, she'd support Randall in his effort to keep his accounts and show his boss that he's capable of maintaining his work load, and wants to do so. Beth is a shrewd pragmatist, which is why I really like her character. If Randall had explained what had happened earlier in the day, I truly think Beth would've said, "Go!" and would have made sure her daughter knew that even though Dad couldn't be there, her mother, sister, and grandfather would be there for her. Seeing Randall sitting there at the tournament, not paying attention, was annoying. As far as we know, Beth might've been getting annoyed with him for not being fully "there." I find that frustrating.
 

OH MY WORD!  He's actually appealing!!!!   I wonder if he does the mouth always open as simply part of his character (if so, stop it).

[memememe76]

Chris seriously looks hot in that photo. 

[Guest]

He always looks so much better with a hat on.  I wonder if the crazy Toby hairline comma-thingy is as fake as the fat suit.

[DebbieM4]

10 hours ago, Jaclyn88 said:

Now that they showed Kate meeting horse guy at the cabin in previews , I don't think they'll do the deed . I guarantee she just went there to tell him she's not cheating on her fiance or something to that effect. 

I loved this show in the beginning but I'm starting to find my eyes wandering now . It's a nice show but every episode feels the same to me . Jack doing romantic gestures for Rebecca and being perfect  , William saying he barely has any time left , Beth being bossy , Kate looking like she wants to barf in Toby's presence ( seriously , why did she accept his proposal?) , Kevin having girl issues and not much else to him , etc .. I need a good surprise with this show 

Yeah, my eyes have been wandering lately too.  Too much lather, rinse, repeat.  Too much I just can't force myself to care about.  I LOVED the first few episodes when we never knew what to expect, and there were some great twists, snappy dialogue, lots of Beth, interesting family dynamics, etc.  Now, too often, it seems somewhat stagnant.

I agree re Kate not seeming enamored of Toby.  She clearly has had some fun with him and (at times) has enjoyed his attention.  But I don't see any chemistry or evidence that she's actually in love with him.  And at times she clearly DOESN'T love his attention, feels uncomfortable, and repeatedly has to push him away when he comes on too strong and invades her space/private time.  He's very high-maintenance and demands a lot of attention.  I just don't see her willing to be in a relationship with someone who's not in tune with her at all, and is so exhausting.   They might be great as friends, but I don't see it as a love match.

And I agree re Kevin.   I love little Kevin, but adult Kevin doesn't interest me at all, especially on his own.  I think we need more of the adult 3 together.  There's been very little of that.

[kissedbyarose]

This might come out a little disjointed but:

Perhaps Jack seems perfect because he's (over)compensating from when he was an alcoholic/had a drinking problem?

*goes back to lurking*

Edited February 10, 2017 by kissedbyarose

[Amethyst]

11 hours ago, topanga said:

I love this show, but this is the one aspect of the show that bugs me. The magical relationships. The earth-moving love. The grand romantic gestures. The secret codes that we must honor. And the monologues. Everyone with those friggin' monologues.  Which is why I like watching the Big 3 as kids and teenagers. They don't speak in monologues. Just halting sentences, as normal people do. 

 

10 hours ago, Jaclyn88 said:

I loved this show in the beginning but I'm starting to find my eyes wandering now . It's a nice show but every episode feels the same to me . Jack doing romantic gestures for Rebecca and being perfect  , William saying he barely has any time left , Beth being bossy , Kate looking like she wants to barf in Toby's presence ( seriously , why did she accept his proposal?) , Kevin having girl issues and not much else to him , etc. I need a good surprise with this show 

IA with both of these points, especially the bolded parts.  I'm still in it, but I'm not as engrossed as I used to be.  It's not the lack of twists, either.  The characters feel less nuanced and dimensional.  They need to tone it down on the monologues, even with SKB.  He's a good enough actor to pull them off and make them work, but it doesn't make them any less tedious.  They also need to back off the grand gestures, especially with Jack.  He really is approaching Gary Stu levels, which means his inevitable fall from grace is going to be major.  And Jack's constant perfection tends to make Rebecca look monstrous by comparison, but in reality, she just feels more human of the two.  I do think that William's saintliness is deliberate, showing Randall just how big of an absence William's death will leave.

Of the Big 3, Randall is the most fleshed out, but I'm not digging what's going on with Kevin and Kate.  Not really into Kevin going into his third relationship since the pilot, and would rather see how he fares being alone.  And it's kind of late in the season to introduce such an important character like an ex-wife, and even harder to believe that Kevin has been pining for her forever.  Kate's plot only revolves around her weight and relationship with Toby, but they completely dropped the assisting job she had, which was a bad idea for a few reasons: she knew she was good at it, and it was a lot more interesting than her trying to ward off Horse Dick's creepy intentions (that's a great name, btw).  How does Kate even support herself?  Savings from her job being Kevin's assistant?  An inheritance from Jack?

There were some amazing scenes and episodes in the first half (the entire episode of The Pool, Randall watching his daughters at the school play, Kevin learning that he can paint like Jackson Pollock, Kate kicking ass with her new assisting job) that really stuck with me, but nothing really sticks with me in the second half.

I doubt they're going to delve into Beth's past until next year.  There's only 3 episodes left and the show is already stuffed with characters and history.  

[SueB]

8 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I think his name is Ben.  But the actor is also named Sam!  

But... do we suspect that there is some kind of connection between Ben and Glory***?

 

***(gratuitous Buffy joke... I'll show my self out....)

[MsJamieDornan]

I think that photo above is photo shopped just a bit They both have double chins (or more)in real life.  

Edited February 10, 2017 by MsJamieDornan

[MsJamieDornan]

4 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

 I wonder if the crazy Toby hairline comma-thingy is as fake as the fat suit.

Looks real.....

Edited February 10, 2017 by MsJamieDornan

[spaceghostess]

2 hours ago, SueB said:

***(gratuitous Buffy joke... I'll show my self out....)

No such thing; you can stay.

[SlackerInc]

I was ready to say Beth seemed nicer this episode...until she got all bossy again, to the detriment of Randall's career.  Ugh.

The chess position shown was ridiculous.  Why can't movies and TV shows ever get this right?

Rebecca and Jack are supposed to be, what, 45 and 50 in this episode?  'Tis to laugh.

[SlackerInc]

On 2/7/2017 at 9:44 PM, movingtargetgal said:

Instead of going to Cabin 13 Kate should have gone to the camp director's office and reported Horse Guy for sexual harassment.  That asshole needs to be fired.  

I felt like some of the stuff Horse Dick said this week was close to confirming the theory someone put forth a couple weeks back, that his parents own the fat camp.  He's never done anything to make himself a success in their eyes, so they just give him a menial job there and he just uses it as a platform to be the dick that he is.  It's an old trope that probably has some basis in reality.

On 2/8/2017 at 2:55 PM, Laurie4H said:

I think it would have been more realistic to have someone who is maybe 50 lbs overweight to play Kate....more realistic that she would have 2 men after her as well.....

I really agree, especially because her shape is so spherical.  What man is attracted to that shape?  She looks like a grown-up version of the girl in Willy Wonka who had to be taken to be juiced.

On 2/8/2017 at 4:30 PM, camom said:

According to this article, Metz was a size 12 when she started out in LA (in other words, normal size), then lost 50 pounds.  She obviously has not always been obese.

That article was pretty amazing. My first thought was to take it as gospel and then assume that she is wearing quite the fat suit. But after reading others' skepticism, I'm a little more skeptical as well.

On 2/8/2017 at 9:21 PM, Drumpf1737 said:

Old men who aren't billionaires can get wives that are 20/30 years younger? I think a change in mindset/outlook is in order rather than a change to the show..

 My wife is 15 years younger than I am.  And I am very far from a billionaire.  It's something that you do see in life.   What you don't see much of is multiple guys going hard after a woman shaped like Kate.  If someone like her has a husband, it's most likely because they got married and had kids together when she was only moderately overweight. 

14 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

I think the guys who tell you you're pretty probably think they're just letting you know they're interested.  I'm sort of curious now about how you let guys know you're interested?  How do you define "encroaching on their space?"  Sitting on the same chair?  Standing in the same office?

Good question. I think a really fundamental part of this problem is that many, maybe even most people are attracted to people who are more attractive than they are and not as interested in people at the same level of attractiveness or certainly at a lower level (especially if they lack compensatory assets like wealth, artistic talent, or a sparkling wit).  So although they might not articulate it this way, they want the attractive ones to come on strong, and the ones at their level or below to keep on walking.

11 hours ago, OtterMommy said:

I actually don't think that's sexual harrassment.

If he is truly implying that he knows the women may not be in the right frame of mind, it sounds like he is admitting that he is taking advantage of their inability to give informed consent--and that's not sexual harassment.  That's sexual assault.

This is a redefinition of sexual assault which seems to be gaining more and more currency which I consider extremely bogus.  Working an angle like this can certainly be sleazy, but doing it to at least some degree is just part of human interaction--other than for people who are outrageously attractive and successful to begin with.  Hiding your flaws and exaggerating your assets is one way to convince someone on the fence to go for you when they otherwise would not have.

The next rung down the ladder is using "beer goggles", either to make someone more palatable for yourself, or make yourself more palatable to them, or maybe even both.  This is the one that somewhat understandably a lot of people are jumping to the conclusion that it amounts to "getting someone drunk" and sexually assaulting them.  And certainly if someone gets drunk to the point that they are passed out or don't really know what's going on around them, then they can't consent.  But to say "she wouldn't go for that guy if she were sober, therefore even though she is actively making out with him it is sexual assault"…nuh uh.  If she's an adult who can make the decision to drink, then the fact that drinking may lead her to lower her standards does not make a man a rapist because he is willing to be the temporary beneficiary of her lower standards.   If it does, you're going to have to build thousands more prisons to lock all of us up.

And the same goes for what you were talking about, any type of emotional or psychological vulnerability.  Unless and until a woman has been officially declared by the courts to be incompetent to manage her own affairs, it is not a crime for a man to suss out whatever anxieties, insecurities, or neuroticisms drive her personality and use that knowledge to seduce her.  One can certainly be of the opinion that it is a sleazy maneuver, but there are a lot of things that are sleazy or jerky that are not violent crimes.  Sexual assault is a violent crime.

Edited February 10, 2017 by SlackerInc
Typos

[Mrs. DuRona]

5 hours ago, SlackerInc said:

Rebecca and Jack are supposed to be, what, 45 and 50 in this episode?  'Tis to laugh.

Jack, sure, maybe.  Although I did notice his eyes are more crinkly.  But Rebecca, I'll buy it.  I turned 38 in June, and had co-workers who thought it was my 30th birthday.  Unless I tell people my age, they assume I'm in my mid-late 20s, not approaching 40.  So, yeah, I take no issue with Rebecca looking so young.

[Kira53]

On 2/8/2017 at 1:44 AM, breezy424 said:

But even with an older home, don't you go out the 'back' door to the detached garage?

With that said, Randall does not live in a Victorian.  He lives in a typical upper middle class home.  I get it.  I spent most of my life in NJ.  It doesn't work the way it's being portrayed.  Yeah, I get it's minutia.  It still bothers me.

Older homes here in Long Island have attached garages but you can't enter the house from the garage. I live in one of those houses, and it just seems so crazy that I have to go outside the house to get into the garage to drive out.  I just imagine that Randall's house is totally renovated but you still have to leave the house to get into the garage.  I have no idea why in the 50s and 60s they didn't think it would be great to enter the house from the garage. I guess people weren't as security minded either as we have to be now.   Of course I don't have a mud room either. Oh, to live in a place where there are lots of new houses for reasonable prices.  Sorry I digress.

[luna1122]

4 hours ago, SlackerInc said:

What man is attracted to that shape?

apparently this guy:

[ShadowFacts]

8 hours ago, kissedbyarose said:

This might come out a little disjointed but:

Perhaps Jack seems perfect because he's (over)compensating from when he was an alcoholic/had a drinking problem?

*goes back to lurking*

Come out to play anytime, kissedbyarose.  They seem to have dropped the thread of Jack's drinking lately, but it could come up again.  I was thinking his overcompensation stems from trying to be the opposite of how his father was with him and his mother. 

3 hours ago, SlackerInc said:

And the same goes for what you were talking about, any type of emotional or psychological vulnerability.  Unless and until a woman has been officially declared by the courts to be incompetent to manage her own affairs, it is not a crime for a man to suss out whatever anxieties, insecurities, or neuroticisms drive her personality and use that knowledge to seduce her.  One can certainly be of the opinion that it is a sleazy maneuver, but there are a lot of things that are sleazy or jerky that are not violent crimes.  Sexual assault is a violent crime.

I can't really agree with that.  First, there are nuances.  There are many degrees of sexual assault, not just violent rape.  As to consent, that is such a thorny issue and there is not just one legal definition that applies across the board.  I definitely don't think a court declaration of incompetence is the only threshold.  And it's really not all about seduction.  If a person cares at all about consent from a partner, which is required to make it not sexual assault, it's probably best to steer clear of the vulnerable, drunk or weak.  Just to be sure one is not forcing oneself while thinking what they are doing is practicing their seduction skills. 

[PRgal]

24 minutes ago, Mrs. DuRona said:

Jack, sure, maybe.  Although I did notice his eyes are more crinkly.  But Rebecca, I'll buy it.  I turned 38 in June, and had co-workers who thought it was my 30th birthday.  Unless I tell people my age, they assume I'm in my mid-late 20s, not approaching 40.  So, yeah, I take no issue with Rebecca looking so young.

You sound like me!  While I look old enough NOT to be carded, most seem to believe I'm around 30 rather than going on 38 this year.   I think Jack looks too fit for most people who are 50-ish - especially back in the 90s when middle aged people (men AND women) were, in general, less "fit"- looking.  Then again, it's Hollywood...

 

24 minutes ago, Kira53 said:

Older homes here in Long Island have attached garages but you can't enter the house from the garage. I live in one of those houses, and it just seems so crazy that I have to go outside the house to get into the garage to drive out.  I just imagine that Randall's house is totally renovated but you still have to leave the house to get into the garage.  I have no idea why in the 50s and 60s they didn't think it would be great to enter the house from the garage. I guess people weren't as security minded either as we have to be now.   Of course I don't have a mud room either. Oh, to live in a place where there are lots of new houses for reasonable prices.  Sorry I digress.

It's like that in Toronto too.  I think having an entrance from the garage was an upgrade back in the early 80s - in that area, anyway.  There was a mudroom, since the laundry room had a side door.  These days, laundry rooms have moved from the basement to the main floor to the second!!! 

[Clanstarling]

10 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

He always looks so much better with a hat on.  I wonder if the crazy Toby hairline comma-thingy is as fake as the fat suit.

Saw him in a guest spot in The Americans (just binged watched all the seasons to prepare for the next), and I recognized him primarily because of his island of hair (he was not as large, but certainly not svelt).

[SunnyBeBe]

I have to join with those who have become a little less than amused by the happenings lately.  This episode just plan annoyed me. For some reason, I want something different. I have no interest in Kate at that camp.  I suppose it could have been amusing, but, it's ruined with this storyline of the guy who's harassing her.  Ugh.....Then there's Kevin and his fickle, self absorbed self that just exudes shallowness.  I never did buy that he painted that paining he showed the girls with all this in depth perspective.  Still don't.  I love Randal and Beth, but, don't make them act stupid.  I also loved Jack, but, enough of the grand gestures, self sacrificing, overblown BS.  The visit to their first apt......really?  I'm not feeling it.  Certainly, they can be more creative.  I hope that aspect of the show returns.  How many more episodes left this season?  I would hate for it to end with a bad note, but, I"m not holding my breath.........Oh, other than that, I love the show! lol 

Edited February 10, 2017 by SunnyBeBe

[Clanstarling]

7 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I have to join with those who have become a little less than amused by the happenings lately.  This episode just plan annoyed me. For some reason, I want something different. I have no interest in Kate at that camp.  I suppose it could have been amusing, but, it's ruined with this storyline of the guy who's harassing her.  Ugh.....Then there's Kevin and his fickle, self absorbed self that just exudes shallowness.  I never did buy that he painted that paining he showed the girls with all this in depth perspective.  Still don't.  I love Randal and Beth, but, don't make them act stupid.  I also loved Jack, but, enough of the grand gestures, self sacrificing, overblown BS.  The visit to their first apt......really?  I'm not feeling it.  Certainly, they can be more creative.  I hope that aspect of the show returns.  How many more episodes left this season?  I would hate for it to end with a bad note, but, I"m not holding my breath.........Oh, other than that, I love the show! lol 

Kind of like that old joke, "Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the show?" LOL