S01.E12: Mindy St. Clair / S01.E13: Michael's Gambit

[JayInChicago]

I keep thinking about how Bad Janet was so hot. I hope if this gets another season Bad Janet gets more screen time ;)

Edited January 28, 2017 by JayInChicago

[MrWhyt]

 Renewed! Fork yeah!

[steelyis]

7 hours ago, MrWhyt said:

 Renewed! Fork yeah!

Yes! Good to see NBC aren't complete fork-ups!

[Boilergal]

On 1/26/2017 at 6:33 PM, HawaiiTVGuy said:

I thought her issue was actually jealousy of her sister?

There is that too - I went back and started watching again from ep1 - from the get go Tehani is humble bragging about all the celebrities she hangs out with, all the money that she raises for charity, all the people she helps - it's all pride.

Sooooo happy to see this is coming back!!

[wendyg]

I don't care what guise the actress who plays Janet comes in, she's great, good or bad.

I thought at the beginning the "good place" was likely to turn out to be the bad place, but then kind of forgot about it as things progressed, which is a sign of *very* good writing.

[CofCinci]

On 1/27/2017 at 9:44 PM, JayInChicago said:

I keep thinking about how Bad Janet was so hot. I hope if this gets another season Bad Janet gets more screen time ;)

Oh yeah. Very hot. Bad Janet looked thinner too. Do they pad "Good Place" Janet's costume?

[romantic idiot]

Huh. I actually thought Good Janet was thinner. 

[bros402]

I don't think one looks thinner than the other - I think it is just really good costuming.

But.. yeah, shallow comment, but Janet in either form is hot.

[cpcathy]

Oh, so shallow!

As long as we're being shallow, Ted Danson always looks so dapper in his suits.

[Mabinogia]

48 minutes ago, cpcathy said:

As long as we're being shallow, Ted Danson always looks so dapper in his suits.

I loved when Janet was gone and Michael was in a Janet suit! I didn't catch it at first but when I did I burst out laughing.

[topanga]

On 1/31/2017 at 0:15 PM, Boilergal said:

There is that too - I went back and started watching again from ep1 - from the get go Tehani is humble bragging about all the celebrities she hangs out with, all the money that she raises for charity, all the people she helps - it's all pride.

Sooooo happy to see this is coming back!!

I loved Tehani's comment that she only attended some charity function to try to snag Ryan (Gosling?). And she did. Several times, in fact. So funny. 

Yes, part of it was pride. But she also felt the need to prove something to her parents, who never made her feel like she was good enough. 

 

On 1/21/2017 at 5:26 AM, wilnil said:

Saying "Find Chidi" is the best short piece of advice -- even if she loses all the moral ground she gained the first time around, she can relearn it from Chidi once she finds him ... and that could give her the insight she needs to figure out the "Good Place" a

I love Eleanor and Chidi's friendship, and I like that Eleanor knows that she'll have the best chance of figuring things out with Chidi's help. I don't ship them in a romantic way, but they do have a bond. Eleanor's goodbye to Chidi was really sweet and heartfelt. I can't remember exactly what she said, but it was perfect.

 

Glad the show is coming back for Season 2. Let's hope Michael Schur doesn't screw it up. 

[theatremouse]

1 hour ago, topanga said:

I loved Tehani's comment that she only attended some charity function to try to snag Ryan (Gosling?). And she did. Several times, in fact. So funny. 

I thought she said "snog", which to me is funnier.

[AnnieBeez]

2 hours ago, theatremouse said:

I thought she said "snog", which to me is funnier.

She did. 

[bros402]

14 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

I loved when Janet was gone and Michael was in a Janet suit! I didn't catch it at first but when I did I burst out laughing.

what

Now I need to rewatch to see Michael in a Janet suit.

[Mabinogia]

5 hours ago, bros402 said:

Now I need to rewatch to see Michael in a Janet suit.

I'm going to assume he didn't wear the skirt, but he had the vest and florally shirt on. It took me a moment to figure out why he looked different and then I was like OMG he's JANET!!!!!

[DrScottie]

20 hours ago, topanga said:

I love Eleanor and Chidi's friendship, and I like that Eleanor knows that she'll have the best chance of figuring things out with Chidi's help. I don't ship them in a romantic way, but they do have a bond. Eleanor's goodbye to Chidi was really sweet and heartfelt. I can't remember exactly what she said, but it was perfect.

It was very heartfelt. 
Chidi: "I feel like I failed you."
Eleanor: "No. Don't ever think that. I was dropped into a cave and you were my flashlight."
 

[topanga]

25 minutes ago, DrScottie said:

It was very heartfelt. 
Chidi: "I feel like I failed you."
Eleanor: "No. Don't ever think that. I was dropped into a cave and you were my flashlight."
 

Thanks for that. It sounds mushy and schmaltzy when I read it here, but the way Kristen Bell delivered the line, it sounded very sincere. And not at all schmaltzy. 

[theatremouse]

Thus is the magic that is Kristen Bell.

[DrScottie]

Watching Groundhog Day again, I realized that it is the same type of transformation that Phil and Eleanor have. They were both awful people to begin with, but matched with time and the right influence, they became a lot better. Rita was Phil's Chidi. 

First, he changed just to impress/seduce Rita. It didn't stay that way. The most important part of it was that, by the end, Phil kept improving himself not to get with Rita, but because he truly became the better person she helped shape. He doesn't have to do all the things for the town everyday since no one else would remember it, yet he does them anyway. He's come to consider the town residents as friends and family and wants them to have a great Groundhog Day. Rita never mentioned anything about studying medicine, but he does it to help Felix. Not to mention all the other things he does to help the town. 

Eleanor's motivation shifted in the same way. First, it was just trying to not get booted out. After a while though, she wanted to become a person who belonged there. Michael thought that would never happen, much like Rita would have never expected Phil to change. And yet, they did. :)

[Notwisconsin]

but you have to remember that Phil went through thousands of cycles (okay, maybe hundreds) before he got to the next day. Eleanor had only one, granted we don't know how long it actually lasted, but still....

 

edited to add: This might be the reverse of "goundhog day" with Eleanor & Co. not remembering and everyone else does.

Edited February 3, 2017 by Notwisconsin
added new thought.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

20 hours ago, topanga said:

21 hours ago, DrScottie said:

It was very heartfelt. 
Chidi: "I feel like I failed you."
Eleanor: "No. Don't ever think that. I was dropped into a cave and you were my flashlight."
 

Thanks for that. It sounds mushy and schmaltzy when I read it here, but the way Kristen Bell delivered the line, it sounded very sincere. And not at all schmaltzy. 

It's a reference to Plato's Allegory of the Cave, showing how much Eleanor learned from Chidi.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

When we saw a flashback of Eleanor in her high school cafeteria, making it clear that she did not want to make friends with anyone, she was wearing braces (likely to make Kristin Bell look younger and more believable as a high school student).  Later, we saw a flashback to when she was 14 (and played by a younger actress) and had her parents sign her emancipation papers.  Somehow, this emancipated minor who was working to support herself while attending high school managed to get herself braces!

[Notwisconsin]

Season one may not be the first go round. If they can blank memories, they can manipulate them too.....

[HunterHunted]

11 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

When we saw a flashback of Eleanor in her high school cafeteria, making it clear that she did not want to make friends with anyone, she was wearing braces (likely to make Kristin Bell look younger and more believable as a high school student).  Later, we saw a flashback to when she was 14 (and played by a younger actress) and had her parents sign her emancipation papers.  Somehow, this emancipated minor who was working to support herself while attending high school managed to get herself braces!

Dental is covered if she had been able to get on Medicaid.

[BoogieBurns]

On 2/1/2017 at 1:43 AM, bros402 said:

But.. yeah, shallow comment, but Janet in either form is hot.

The actress plays one of the trainers on Broad City. Just if you want to see her in other roles during the off season, she seems to be in season 2 and 3 more than 1.

[swimmyfish]

On 1/22/2017 at 11:53 PM, DrScottie said:

I was going through the bulletin board that Michael put up as part of his plan for the neighborhood. I think I got most of them from a zoomed in DVR feed.  Eleanor got just about all of them when she figured it out.  

Tahani will provide Chidi with the nightmare of a third option on top of the other two Eleanors

 

Now I'm confused - the only reason Second Eleanor came into the scene was because Famous Original Eleanor confessed to Michael and he called the train in from the "Bad Place". But in the finale Michael says that he didn't expect Genuine Eleanor to confess, so it made them all scramble. So how could Tahani's presence be confusing for Chidi as a third option if the second option hadn't actually been a part of the plan? Did I miss something?

[secnarf]

10 minutes ago, swimmyfish said:

Now I'm confused - the only reason Second Eleanor came into the scene was because Famous Original Eleanor confessed to Michael and he called the train in from the "Bad Place". But in the finale Michael says that he didn't expect Genuine Eleanor to confess, so it made them all scramble. So how could Tahani's presence be confusing for Chidi as a third option if the second option hadn't actually been a part of the plan? Did I miss something?

Maybe Michael planned for only two options initially?

[DrScottie]

1 hour ago, swimmyfish said:

Now I'm confused - the only reason Second Eleanor came into the scene was because Famous Original Eleanor confessed to Michael and he called the train in from the "Bad Place". But in the finale Michael says that he didn't expect Genuine Eleanor to confess, so it made them all scramble. So how could Tahani's presence be confusing for Chidi as a third option if the second option hadn't actually been a part of the plan? Did I miss something?

It was up as part of Michael's pitch to Shawn and the board. My thought is that they would put Vicky or whomever as "Real Eleanor" in at some point to stir things up.  Remember, it was supposed to be a 1000 year scenario,.  

[Isazouzi]

I've just rewatched everything and so many things were there from the start. Eleanor's love of sexy mailmen is a recurrent theme through the course of the show. Or Janet saying that every time she's rebooted, she likes to smash birthday cake where her mouth is, and then later on her wedding day with Jason, that's exactly what he does with the wedding cake. I've probably missed lots of other details.

The only thing that didn't make sense to me, once you know the twist, is the private conversation between Michael and Shawn in Eleanor's bedroom, while they're waiting for the 4 characters to pick the pair who's going to the bad place. Since there were no witnesses to this conversation, except us the viewers, there was really no need for Michael and Shawn to keep up the ruse in private.

[jpollo02]

Count me among the people who thinks the big reveal isn't what it's purported to be.  In other words, I don't think they're actually in The Bad Place.  My reasons:

• Over and over, Eleanor complains about the lack of a "medium place" and how there should be such a place, and Chidi says something like, "well, it apparently doesn't work like that."  But the ridiculousness of the scoring system, the fact that people like Florence Nightengale are apparently in The Bad Place, etc. etc., suggests that we're not meant to accept the binary system.  Mindy St. Clair is put forth as evidence of an actual medium place, yet we're meant to believe that she's the only one in all of history that's merited going there.  And when you look at the kind of person she was, she seems even worse than Tahani.
• One of Chidi's theories on his chalkboard is “test for me/her/others?”
• My concept of the show's purgatory is that it tests the person based on the various ethical theories discussed during the show.  For instance, at one point, Eleanor says something to the fact that she would've been a better person had she been surrounded by better people.  The first season suggests she's right about that, and the second season will test that theory because those people won't be immediately around her anymore.  Additionally, the scoring system in s1 confirms to one of Chidi's theories: a person's ethical quality is equal to the sum total of their positive and negative actions.  In s2, it could be based on something else (notably, the end of s1 didn't show us the scoring system again when the world was rebooted).
• Ted Danson's reaction to her "revealing the truth" seems more "pretend petulant" than genuinely upset, as if he's playing a role.  In fact, it reminded me a lot of the petulance he showed at his retirement party.  He certainly may have been surprised that she caught on that the place isn't what it purports to be, but I'm not sure she guessed correctly as to what it actually is.
• One of the pieces of evidence Eleanor gives for why it's actually the Bad Place is that Michael asks Eleanor to help him find the problem in the neighborhood, which of course is herself. However, Michael doesn't ask Eleanor; he asks Tahani, who demurs and suggests Eleanor in her place. And as to Michael getting Chidi to throw away his thesis, the private conversation that Michael has with Sean suggests that the thesis is truly as unreadable as Michael says it is.
• In ep1, Janet lets them hear a snippet of The Bad Place and all they hear is screaming.  People have postulated that that must have been a different neighborhood, but I don't know why we should necessarily believe that. 

Part of my skepticism even extends to the veracity of the flashbacks.  For instance, Tahani’s family seems too ridiculous to be true: her parents bid $5 million just to spend 1 hour with their own daughter, misspell Tahani’s name in their will, etc.  At first, I chalked this up to the show going for a laugh, but then again, I did the same thing with respect to the seeming unhappiness of a lot of the characters in paradise.

[rho]

Quote

Count me among the people who thinks the big reveal isn't what it's purported to be.  In other words, I don't think they're actually in The Bad Place. 

What if it's a spectrum and there's a better/worse/best/worst place?

[dabulls]

On 1/31/2017 at 0:15 PM, Boilergal said:

There is that too - I went back and started watching again from ep1 - from the get go Tehani is humble bragging about all the celebrities she hangs out with, all the money that she raises for charity, all the people she helps - it's all pride.

Sooooo happy to see balls in my face is coming back!!

Yes, me too!!!

[ThoughtAFool]

On 2/6/2017 at 5:23 PM, rho said:

What if it's a spectrum and there's a better/worse/best/worst place?

This would fit in with seeing that there is such a thing as Mindy's Medium Place, (if that was real, rather than part of the mindfork).  

I'd have to go back and re-view but I don't think Michael and Shawn ever knew that the Janet, Jason, and Eleanor were at the Medium Place.  So if Janet is trustworthy (see "unanswered questions" topic), that may have been real.

[Isazouzi]

I don't know if Janet is trustworthy, but she told Jason it was impossible for her to go to the bad place with him. So why could she go to the medium place (if it was real)? That also makes me wonder how exactly Michael stole her.

[rho]

Quote

I don't know if Janet is trustworthy, but she told Jason it was impossible for her to go to the bad place with him. So why could she go to the medium place (if it was real)? That also makes me wonder how exactly Michael stole her.

But according to Michael, she's already in the Bad Place. Maybe she meant it in a very literal way, as in she can't go because she's already there. Or she doesn't know she's in the Bad Place either?

[Captain Carrot]

16 hours ago, Isazouzi said:

I don't know if Janet is trustworthy, but she told Jason it was impossible for her to go to the bad place with him. So why could she go to the medium place (if it was real)? That also makes me wonder how exactly Michael stole her.

I think Janet is trustworthy in the sense that she won't knowingly tell a falsehood, but we have to wonder how much control Michael has over the information in her head. Can she access information herself through some sort of afterlife internet? Or does she only have the information given to her by Michael.

Is anyone else catching stuff during their rewatch? I've only watched the first two episodes, and I had forgotten that Michael told Eleanor about erasing the memory of her death in the first episode.

[bros402]

6 hours ago, Captain Carrot said:

I think Janet is trustworthy in the sense that she won't knowingly tell a falsehood, but we have to wonder how much control Michael has over the information in her head. Can she access information herself through some sort of afterlife internet? Or does she only have the information given to her by Michael.

Is anyone else catching stuff during their rewatch? I've only watched the first two episodes, and I had forgotten that Michael told Eleanor about erasing the memory of her death in the first episode.

Remember when she went to the medium place, she said she was out of range of the neighborhood?

[Isazouzi]

Janet is supposed to have all the knowledge of the Universe (before the murder), so how could she not know she's a Good Janet, stolen from the Good Place and put in the Bad Place to play a torture scenario? If she is programmable, as this suggests, then why bother to steal a Good Janet? Why not program a Bad Janet in the first place? Maybe they can't be program to act good...

[vibeology]

11 hours ago, Isazouzi said:

Janet is supposed to have all the knowledge of the Universe (before the murder), so how could she not know she's a Good Janet, stolen from the Good Place and put in the Bad Place to play a torture scenario? If she is programmable, as this suggests, then why bother to steal a Good Janet? Why not program a Bad Janet in the first place? Maybe they can't be program to act good...

Maybe each Janet is off before their neighbourood is created so Janet doesn't know that she was stolen. And I also assume that Michael did a pretty good job of creating a "Good Place" and enough of the details are right that even Janet has been fooled. It's all guesses but I like that there's still more to be explained.

[HawaiiTVGuy]

On 2/3/2017 at 6:00 PM, secnarf said:

Maybe Michael planned for only two options initially?

Did they say that Chidi's torture was supposed to be the choice between Tahani and Eleanor?  I thought it was just all the ethical dilemmas that Eleanor would present to Chidi by being someone who admits to him that she is not supposed to be in "The Good Place". 

[Loandbehold]

16 hours ago, HawaiiTVGuy said:

Did they say that Chidi's torture was supposed to be the choice between Tahani and Eleanor?  I thought it was just all the ethical dilemmas that Eleanor would present to Chidi by being someone who admits to him that she is not supposed to be in "The Good Place". 

I don't think Fake!Eleanor was supposed to tell Chidi that she didn't belong. Chidi's ethical dilemma would happen as he sees F!E acting as herself and he realizes she doesn't belong. Although this would still lead to the same problem, he would first have to decide whether he should confront her and say that he has to tell Michael. We know that would give him many stomachaches as he first dithers whether to tell F!E, then how he should tell her, then whether he should offer or she would ask if he could teach her. At that point he would be where the show was after the first episode. I base this on Michael's remark that she figured out what was happening a lot sooner than he expected. The four were supposed to torture each other for what, a couple of thousand years?

[DrScottie]

14 hours ago, Loandbehold said:

I don't think Fake!Eleanor was supposed to tell Chidi that she didn't belong. Chidi's ethical dilemma would happen as he sees F!E acting as herself and he realizes she doesn't belong. Although this would still lead to the same problem, he would first have to decide whether he should confront her and say that he has to tell Michael. We know that would give him many stomachaches as he first dithers whether to tell F!E, then how he should tell her, then whether he should offer or she would ask if he could teach her. At that point he would be where the show was after the first episode. I base this on Michael's remark that she figured out what was happening a lot sooner than he expected. The four were supposed to torture each other for what, a couple of thousand years?

At least a thousand. Shawn's reply was that Michael would be lucky to get six weeks out of it. Shawn was right.

[Cowgirl]

On 2/1/2017 at 10:08 AM, Mabinogia said:

I loved when Janet was gone and Michael was in a Janet suit! I didn't catch it at first but when I did I burst out laughing.

I missed that!  And I even re-watched.  Welp, guess I'll have to watch a third time. Oh darn.

I'd forgotten until I read prior posts here that the Medium Place played Hotel California.  I laughed not only at the intended joke, but at the fact that my small rural hometown radio station only seemed to play about ten songs when I was growing up, and one of them was (and still is!) Hotel California.  I've been in the Middle Place all along -- who knew?!

[cpcathy]

I think I was in a middle place, but my TV station only played Gilligan's Island and The Munsters.

[Mabinogia]

1 hour ago, Cowgirl said:

I missed that!  And I even re-watched.  Welp, guess I'll have to watch a third time. Oh darn.

You poor thing. I must have to do a third watch myself, in solidarity!

[Cowgirl]

Hee!  You remind me cpcathy, that we only had one channel when I was growing up, and I have a deep-seeded hatred for Billy Graham, because when he'd have his week-long t.v. revivals, that's the only thing that was on t.v.  Wonder if Billy is Good Place or Bad Place material?

And thanks Mabinogia. Solidarity!  Oh the terrible terrible strain of having to do a re-watch.   However shall we stand it?

Edited February 15, 2017 by Cowgirl

[Mabinogia]

4 minutes ago, Cowgirl said:

And thanks Mabinogia. Solidarity!  Oh the terrible terrible strain of having to do a re-watch.   However shall we stand it?

I plan on having a LOT of frozen yogurt. :)

 

4 minutes ago, Cowgirl said:

Wonder if Billy is Good Place or Bad Place material?

Do you even have to ask? LOL

[Cowgirl]

47 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

I plan on having a LOT of frozen yogurt. :)

Good idea!  Plus we can have pizza if we're celebrating season 2. 

[jpollo02]

Quote

But according to Michael, she's already in the Bad Place. Maybe she meant it in a very literal way, as in she can't go because she's already there. Or she doesn't know she's in the Bad Place either?

I thought it was a possibility that she meant she's already there.  But a few episodes earlier, she tells Jason not to tell Michael about their relationship because he would then know Jason was a fraud and send him to The Bad Place.

[MDKNIGHT]

I had my suspicions that this was the "bad place" from the beginning especially since I immediately remembered the Twilight Zone ep with the gangster who thinks he's in heaven which people have mentioned, but I was never sure.  Every time the show did something fishy that made me suspect more it could be discounted as either (1) the writer/s didn't know certain facts or (2) it is a comedy so exaggeration and things that couldn't be true are the norm.  As an example the people we now know were actors... The stories they told at the first party of why they got into the "good" place were ridiculous so that Eleanor would feel inferior and miserable.  The Indian guy said he had donated BOTH kidneys to a perfect stranger.  So I was thinking (1) either the writers don't know NOBODY donates both kidneys, no doctor would do it, and the recipient only needs ONE kidney so it is a pointless way to die or (2) the writers did know, that but because it was a comedy had a character actually do it.  So while I still thought it being hell MIGHT be a possibility I was never sure about it until the latest ep. 

BTW something that also made me wonder but may still be just a limitation of story telling and not deliberate is this.  What happens if you find your soulmate on earth and then one person dies first.  Don't you wait for your soulmate in heaven?  I found it suspicious that everybody got paired up after death.  We saw nobody either waiting for their soulmate or already reunited with them.  Also what were the chances that Chidi and real Eleanor or Tahanni and the monk would die at about the same time if they really were soulmates? But like I said it could be a story telling plot hole rather than a clue this set up was not legit.

I'll be tuning in next season.  In the mean time I chose to believe that Florence Nightingale DID get into the Good Place and Michael was only lying.  I'm hoping that our main characters' antics  leads to an afterlife restructuring.   Especially since Michael mentioned an "up there" or something like that that seemed to indicate there IS a Good Place but I'm not sure that we can be sure that there is one.  It is possible that there is ONLY hell.