S04.E01: The Six Thatchers

[sjankis630]

Quote

Mary being secret ninja ultra assassin was my personal jump-the-shark moment, fwiw,

I tend to agree with this. At the moment when they went back to the hostage situation gone bad and they showed the actress ripping off her mask and I saw her face there with those pouty lips I was like GTFO!.

Oh and while he was cute the whole scene with the bloodhound with all the exciting sounds and graphics coming over the screen could have been cut entirely and nothing would have been missed.

Edited January 2, 2017 by sjankis630

[ItCouldBeWorse]

56 minutes ago, ElleryAnne said:

Did Sherlock show Mycroft a picture of Rosie and then talk like an almost normal person about human relationships, or did I hallucinate that?

He did.  I was quite surprised that he cared.

[tessaforever]

17 hours ago, photo fox said:

Overall, I liked it, though. But I can't think of a single quotable moment. Hm.

Honestly, Mycroft had the best lines, so at least Mark Gatiss treats himself well!

17 hours ago, tootsie said:

Always so visually pleasing. Really, really liked the circling sharks in the aquarium as backdrop to that particular drama. 

Yes, and the juxtaposition of the statue over Sherlock's face. Gorgeous. 

16 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I thought that was pretty good, in that the case was interesting and I didn't see it all coming, but the character stuff was pretty questionable. Since when is John the kind of guy who has an emotional affair ( I assume it was just emotional) right after having a daughter with the wife he loves? His biggest trait is his loyalty to the people he loves, but now he has a thing with some random woman because...because? Also, maybe I am missing something, but I have NO CLUE why he`s so pissed off at Sherlock. Marys death was not his fault at all. Mary choose to jump in front of him, he had nothing to do with it. Yeah, he promised to take care of Mary and John, but he can only do so much. Sherlock might not enjoy admitting it, but he is a mere mortal. He isn't faster than a speeding bullet. I get John being upset right after it happened, but I am going to be really annoyed if we have to sit through a whole season of John being pissed off at Sherlock for stuff that isn't his fault. 

I don't think anyone, even Sherlock Holmes, should promise another person that they will protect them from EVERYTHING. Unless Sherlock slept at the foot of John & Mary's bed and followed them around town, how would that even be possible? Or was he supposed to divine the future and *see* potential peril in time to protect them from it? I thought it was awful of John to take out his grief and guilt on Sherlock in that moment, when even Mary wasn't holding Sherlock accountable for her death. 

My dad is a pastor and he's told the story of the merchant who tries to avoid death by going to Samarra so many times as a sermon illustration,  I got a really good lol from hearing it in this context. 

[ItCouldBeWorse]

57 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

 

Yes, Molly babysitting Rosamond and widower-sitting John Watson "bothered" me ...  was she there in hope of "being there" exactly for that moment of talking to Sherlock?  did she have a preexisting personal relationship with Mr. and Mrs. Watson outside of Sherlock and various "cases" that they shared?  Making her (a qualified professional scientist/medical examiner) again a pathetic Sherlock-hanger-on/crush/shipper? 

 

There was a mention earlier, I thought, of Molly and Mrs. Hudson having babysat. No teenagers for Rosamund. I suppose Watson and Rosamund will have to move in with Sherlock since Mrs. Hudson is eternally available just downstairs.

I didn't like how Mary said that she and John had agreed never to take Rosamund on one of Sherlock's cases, and then did just that since neither one wanted to stop following Toby.  What if at the end of the trail they had found the culprit, and he aimed a gun at Rosamund? Just accept that in this line of business, once you have a kid, you're both tied down and vulnerable.  When Mary went away and John and Sherlock followed her, Ajay could have simply kidnapped the baby and forced Mary to kill herself in order to save her.  Actually, Sherlock was the one who carelessly told Ajay that he knew a "Mary" who had the same thumb drive.  Otherwise, he might have had trouble finding her. This is why superheroes have secret identities.

Edited January 2, 2017 by ItCouldBeWorse

[12catcrazy]

It's been interesting reading everyone's thoughts about this episode.  I was very disappointed in it - to me it seemed incoherent and disjointed and made me long for the earlier episodes.  

I like Mary but thought making her the super-spy assassin was over the top.  I also disliked the fight scene with Sherlock and AJ - I mean, really, we don't get enough of that kind of crap on every other tv show out there (cop/action/adventure)?

Does anybody else think that Martin Freeman looks like he's aged 10 years since the last episodes?  I kept looking at him going WTH - maybe has something to do with his hair? Dunno.

I hope that the new episodes are better than this - right now I'm longing for Elementary, which may not get all the hoopla Sherlock gets, but which in my opinion is actually a better show. 

[cmahorror]

The flash drives plotline reminds me of the 80's - back when some people would say there would never be a nuclear war because it would be MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction). I really think that is what they were shooting for.

[MissLucas]

I think Molly babysitting made some sense since they made her a godmother of baby Rosamund. Of course she still has a job so I guess her being there when Sherlock showed up was just coincidence (maybe it was at a weekend).

I've just remembered that 'Elementary' already did the whole 'Holmes' arrogance causes someone he considers a friend to get hurt' - of course it was not so over the top as in 'Sherlock'. The person in question did not get killed nor was he Watson's wife. But it still provided a great character arc for Holmes who was really having a hard time dealing with the consequences of his actions. Of course Elementary has more time to develop such arcs. 'Sherlock' does not have that luxury which makes the decision to go big drama for Mary's death all the more puzzling. It's as if this show is stuck with the volume for drama always pumped to the max.

[Chaos Theory]

I don't think Watson is actually angry at Sherlock but when someone is mourning they tend to lash out at eadybtargets and Sherlock is an easy target.  I think that is the mission that Mary is sending Sherlock on: The Save John is more from himself and his guilt about whatever went on with bus/phone girl.  It wouldn't surprise me if Mary knew and was letting It happen for whatever reason she had maybe it was still John coming to terms with Mary and AGRA and Mary understood that and was letting John figure that out for himself.  Either way John must be feeling a lot of guilt and lashing out at Sherlock is easier then feeling the pain.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

8 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

It wouldn't surprise me if Mary knew and was letting It happen for whatever reason she had maybe it was still John coming to terms with Mary and AGRA and Mary understood that and was letting John figure that out for himself.

I haven't rewatched, but I thought that when they showed for the 2nd time Mary and John's conversation in bed before the baby started to cry, and Mary got up to get Rosamund and John texted the redhead, that when Mary came back into the bedroom, she handed the baby to John and swiped his glowing phone before walking out of the room.  Did anyone else see this? It would make sense that Mary the spy would know what John was up to it. 

[TexasGal]

2 minutes ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

I haven't rewatched, but I thought that when they showed for the 2nd time Mary and John's conversation in bed before the baby started to cry, and Mary got up to get Rosamund and John texted the redhead, that when Mary came back into the bedroom, she handed the baby to John and swiped his glowing phone before walking out of the room.  Did anyone else see this? It would make sense that Mary the spy would know what John was up to it. 

Also haven't rewatched, but I thought John took it with him when he offered to take the baby.

[Peace 47]

I just realized what this whole John-blames-Sherlock situation reminds me of:  that Seinfeld episode where Elaine is at Joe Mayo's party, is given the "job" of being in charge of guests' coats, and inadvertently throws away Joe's coat while carrying out her duties.  Joe wants Elaine to buy him a new coat, not because he was aware that she was responsible (he wasn't), but because she was "in charge" of the coats when his was lost.  Elaine says that's insane.

John initially wasn't mad at Sherlock because he taunted Vivian into shooting (he wasn't there for that), but because Sherlock had promised to protect Mary.  I guess Sherlock should just buy John the replacement coat.

3 hours ago, PaulaO said:

Clarifying question.  Did AJ want to kill Mary because he thought she betrayed AGRA?

Yes.  While Ajay was tortured, he heard them saying that an Englishwoman had betrayed them, and thought it was Mary.  It was actually Vivian.  Mary is not even English (per Sherlock in "His Last Vow" when he noted that he could tell by her accent).  I had assumed she was American because it was referenced in HLV that at some point she worked for the CIA before becoming a freelance assassin.  I think the writers forgot that, though.  Would she continue to talk in an English accent with her last breaths?

They really canonized her character at the end there: she wasn't really an assassin who did bad things as we had been led to believe, so much as an elite commando who did good things like rescuing hostages for the British government.  She was unfailingly loyal to her "family" of coworkers, even when one wanted her dead.  She loved John with all her heart, saved Sherlock, and with her dying breaths, made sure that Sherlock knew that she liked him and that she was sorry for all the prior shooting and flatlining and stuff.  I'm surprised a halo didn't appear over her head in the final moments.

ETA:  to answer the question, John took the phone off the nightstand in that scene, not Mary, who had crawled back into bed.

Edited January 2, 2017 by Peace 47

[Cthulhudrew]

I'm guessing John's anger with Sherlock is misplaced guilt? Maybe he's keeping him at a distance in order to keep Sherlock from uncovering his apparent deep, dark secret affair?

Because, yeah- we've already been down this road with Watson and Holmes, albeit with absolute justification for Watson's feelings. Not so much this time.

Can't say I'm too sad to see Mary gone; it's almost forgivable that she was kind of the driving figure in this episode as a result. I hope they don't take too long to get to the Moriarty plot, and to resolve the H/W conflict.

[zxy556575]

Does it seem like Cumberbatch has kind of forgotten how to play Sherlock?

My disappointment was that the tone of the episode completely tipped over into soap opera and away from clever detective work. I should never be able to figure out a damned clue before Sherlock Holmes!

The entire aquarium scene made me heave a gusty sigh. Jesus, Sherlock. Walk in, immediately hold Norbury at gunpoint, and wait for Lestrade.

Small moment: I liked the scene with Lestrade bemoaning that it was impossible for him to take credit for closing a case when John then ruined it by blogging.

Edited January 3, 2017 by lordonia

[NeenerNeener]

20 hours ago, peridot said:

I wasn't really feeling this episode.  Since when is Sherlock so manic and glued to his phone?  Everyone seemed like different people this episode.

The red head had to be stalking John, right?

Yeah, if there really is a posthumous Moriarity plot going on, she has to be part of it.

[statsgirl]

I perfectly understand John emotionally cheating.  From the first episode, he was presented as an adrenalin junkie and marriage + baby is boring.  It makes me like him a lot less though.  Fortunately, as the single parent of an infant, he's not going to have time to have any affairs any more.

I agree pretty much with all of the Den of Geek review, especially that this episode seemed to be three different shows:  a comedy, a Jason Bourne mystery, and finally a tragedy.

I am really going to miss Mary.  Sherlock and John are getting tiresome by season 4, it's always the same old thing with them, and Mary spiced things up .  I don't know why they had to kill her, especially in such a silly way.  If Sherlock is so bright, let him figure out that someone is going to shoot at him and get out of the way

I find at this point that it's the female characters on the show, Mrs. Hudson, Molly and especially Mary RIP, that I enjoy the most.

[Miles]

I really liked Mary and don't like that the writers killed her off. If they wanted to go back to the bro-show they could have had Mary decide that she actually wanted a normal life and stay away from cases, to spend more time with her daughter. That way she could have been in like one episode a season when she was really needed, but otherwise not disturb the bromance.

My only hope is that she actually faked her death to protect her family. Sure she got shot, but it might not have been in a fatal spot. Maybe she instead touched the paper in her pocket, that she had used earlier to knock out Sherlock. Maybe it slows your metabolism way down. It seems weird that they would introduce that paper and not use it again. I know I'm grasping at straws, but it's all I have, damn it!

Regarding the USB-drive, I would hope it has 256 bit AES encryption and a very strong password. Even then it's dangerous to just carry that stuff around with you, but it's not as dumb. Then again Mary never mentioned anything about a password when she gave it to John, so maybe it is that dumb.

Edited January 3, 2017 by Miles

[Peace 47]

Some weird things happened in this episode that people online have noted.  Some of these things might be inconsistent writing, or they may mean something (like my disliking the episode less if they turn into something important):

(a) Sherlock knew who Margaret Thatcher was in "The Hounds of Baskerville" and used her first name in particular to help solve a password problem, so why can't he remember who she is now?  (Gatiss wrote both episodes, but maybe he legit doesn't remember what he wrote before.)  Also, John already wrote up "The Six Thatchers" case on his blog in S2 (with the same basic premise of smashing Thatcher busts, but not these details).  Now that prior case does not exist in this world.  John's blog was promotional show content that is still accessible online, but the producers said it would no longer be updated starting in S4.  John is still blogging in-show, so why cut it off now, after three seasons of doing it?  And what of the old Thatcher case?

(b) As I mentioned in my earlier post, the skull painting in 221B is different than before and starts "glowing" brighter and brighter with reflected light as the 221B scenes go on.  Why does it do that?  Confusing directorial choice to show death looming over the characters as the show goes on?  Or a symbol that this is some kind of altered state?

(c) Sherlock is momentarily overcome by water imagery when he sees the Thatcher shrine.  The show ends at the acquarium.  What is that about?  Sherlock also has that dream of what I assume is his younger self in a pirate hat running along a path with Redbeard and another young person (too young to be Mycroft).  Water, pirates ... any connections?

Edited January 3, 2017 by Peace 47

[statsgirl]

Unfortunately Steven Moffat confirmed that Mary is indeed dead.

Other than a way to get Molly into the episode, it makes sense that she was babysitting Rosie because she is one of her two godmothers and John wouldn't have had time to get full time child care yet.  The other godmother, Mrs. Hudson, was babysitting Sherlock.

7 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

As much as I agree that this is a show about the relationship between two men.  That just bores me after awhile when it just become about that.  Shows where there are no major female characters are just so boring no matter how well written.  I guess two men take on the world is just not a trope I enjoy.  

THIS.  To me a couple of men, or a group of men like on many TV shows, just gets boring because it's always the same interactions, and always the same bromance emotions.

In the interview I linked to above, Moffat also says

Quote

The reality of this, of course, is that Sherlock Holmes is about Sherlock and Dr. Watson and it’s always going to come back to that — always always always. They had fun making it a trio but it doesn’t work long term. Mary was always going to go and we were always going to get back to the two blokes. That’s the format. [Sherlock writer-producer-actor] Mark Gatiss and I do not have the delusion that we know better than Sir Arthur Conan Doyle. That’s how the show works and always will. We reset to the most traditional and famous version of the format.

That's just nonsense, IMO.  As good as he was, Arthur Conan Doyle was writing at a time when women simply weren't included at all in acting/adventure stories written by men.  Look at Jules Verne. ( H. Rider Haggard's "She" is a notable exception.)  It simply didn't occur to Conan Doyle to put in regular female characters.  Even the character of Irene Adler, held up as the foremost woman in Holmes' life, was only in one short story and even then she rejected him. Every time in the last few decades  that an ACD story gets made for screen or other media, such as The Lost World, the writers have to create female characters to make it more interesting for today's audiences to watch.

4 hours ago, MisterGlass said:

Molly is in the same boat as Lestrade with the mediocre consolation that Sherlock remembers her name.  I would honestly like to see a non-Sherlock episode with these two characters to demonstrate that they are actually their own professionals when they are away from him.  Other shows have done Zeppo-style storylines and it worked out well.

When I read Sherlock fanfic, it tends to be Molly/Lestrade, if only because they both get such short shrift on the show itself.

ETA:

Quote

a) Sherlock knew who Margaret Thatcher was in "The Hounds of Baskerville" and used her first name in particular to help solve a password problem, so why can't he remember who she is now?

I think he did remember and he was faking that he didn't.  John seemed to be pushing the "stop fooling around" gestures.

Edited January 3, 2017 by statsgirl

[Starchild]

5 minutes ago, Peace 47 said:

(c) Sherlock is momentarily overcome by water imagery when he sees the Thatcher shrine.  The show ends at the acquarium.  What is that about?

My take on it was that whenever you saw the water reflection on Sherlock's face, it was him thinking that whatever he was dealing with at the time was part of the Moriarty game he was expecting to uncover. The water imagery = the Carl Powers pool.

[KaleyFirefly]

22 hours ago, cmahorror said:

I kept saying "John, No!" at the screen during the scenes with his emotional affair. It also was completely and totally out of John's nature to have any kind of inappropriate relationship with this woman. John is many things but, above almost everything else, he is loyal and would never betray someone he loves that way. Yes, Sherlock was a little hyper but he was still true to his basic character.

I agree. I really didn't like that subplot at all, it was totally out of character for him and an unnecessary subplot. It sort of came out of nowhere...wasn't it last season, he finds out Mary was a spy/assassin and at first is upset, but then tells her he loves her and doesn't care about her past? He accepted her and was happy with her. So now, all of a sudden out of nowhere, he's unhappy enough to have an affair? John would never do that. 

[Driad]

When Mycroft and Sherlock talked about baby Rosie, I thought Mycroft might say what an annoying baby Sherlock had been. Mycroft is enough older to remember, although he probably had little to do with his baby brother and may have been away at boarding school by then.

A few seasons ago I hoped to see more of John's sister Harriet, but considering the way women have generally been treated in this series, I have changed my mind.

Any speculation or news about Sherrinford, please?

[Matt K]

I really disliked this episode.  Killing Mary was not a surprise as I had a feeling early on that she was going to die.  Really sad that came true as Mary was a nice balance to the Holmes-Watson dynamic.  People above mentioned a lot of the issues with the episode (the affair, Sherlock and his phone, the usb, etc) that I had.  I really hated what they did with the characters this episode and I really missed the show actually having a real case to solve.  I also question why they gave John a baby as I really don't think that'll work (but willing to be pleasantly surprised if it does).   That said, I'm willing to see where this season goes and even if it's further off the deep end, well it's only 2 more episodes.

[KaleyFirefly]

7 hours ago, cko said:

This is an interesting point, because I DO feel they had chemistry in Series 3, but now of course we know they were filming this episode after having split up, so perhaps that had an effect on their ease, or lack thereof, together. My sister said this episode had melancholy, I wonder if this was part of it.

Not that they aren't great enough actors to act through it, but chemistry and ease are hard to fake, I'd think.

I didn't know they'd broken up in real life. Sad.

[zxy556575]

I now want some gingersnaps.

[KaleyFirefly]

I don't mind that they killed off Mary; I never liked the whole "Mary is a super-spy assassin" thing (and this is coming from someone who normally really likes stuff about super-spy assassins.) I just felt that she never fit in and was a problematic character. I just like to see Watson & Holmes solving mysteries together, like in the books. 

I didn't like what they did to John's character at all. I also thought it was just too big of a coincidence that solving the mystery of the dead teenager of the car is what leads them to one of the only six houses, in all of London, where people have a Thatcher statue. It seemed that there should have a less contrived way to get Sherlock involved with Mary's AGRA story.

[sjankis630]

I kept wondering after the first reveal in the car incident, "how skinny do you have to be in order to not be noticed in a car seat as not the seat?"

They must have not really paid much attention to the car that week. It is also interesting that noone noticed the empty car the next day - even though it was the son's car - and thought that the seat looked funny/different.

[tessaforever]

2 hours ago, Peace 47 said:

Some weird things happened in this episode that people online have noted.  Some of these things might be inconsistent writing, or they may mean something (like my disliking the episode less if they turn into something important):

(a) Sherlock knew who Margaret Thatcher was in "The Hounds of Baskerville" and used her first name in particular to help solve a password problem, so why can't he remember who she is now?  (Gatiss wrote both episodes, but maybe he legit doesn't remember what he wrote before.)  Also, John already wrote up "The Six Thatchers" case on his blog in S2 (with the same basic premise of smashing Thatcher busts, but not these details).  Now that prior case does not exist in this world.  John's blog was promotional show content that is still accessible online, but the producers said it would no longer be updated starting in S4.  John is still blogging in-show, so why cut it off now, after three seasons of doing it?  And what of the old Thatcher case?

 

He was definitely being silly to distract everyone from his overbearing interest in the shrine. He knows who MT is. Regarding the blogging, I think that was written in S2 before they knew it would be the premise of a TV ep. Retcon and all that. 

1 hour ago, lordonia said:

I now want some gingersnaps.

Did I misunderstand, or did Sherlock say "ginger nuts"? If so, what are those? 

I too miss the Molly who worked in the lab and actually contributed information that helped solve cases. She's adorable, but I hope she does more than babysit and pass along messages in the next episodes. 

Wading into the shallow end, I like Martin Freeman's new hair, and as I didn't know he and Amanda had broken up, my first thought after hearing that was, "So, Martin Freeman is available, eh?" So shallow, I know. 

[j5cochran]

22 minutes ago, tessaforever said:

Did I misunderstand, or did Sherlock say "ginger nuts"? If so, what are those? 

"Ginger nuts" is what the Brits call ginger snaps (assuming that you are from the western end of the Pond).

[Charlesman]

13 hours ago, 7thton said:

This is my biggest gripe with the show. What would be wrong with Sherlock/Watson just, you know...investigating a mystery and then solving it in a stand-alone episode?

The biggest issue with this show is that they are intent on having an over-arching, continuing plot-line (Mary and Moriarty, for example). There are too few episodes that are released too infrequently for this to be effective, IMHO. The plots also seem forced (Moriarty...Moriarty again!...Moriarty strikes back!).

Exactly! With two years to come up with three ideas, is it that hard to devise a clever mystery? There's no more of the smart playfulness that was A Study in Pink and the rest of the first season. 

[cakes1975]

I think Sherlock playing with his phone at the beginning of the episode was his way of saying fuck-off to Mycroft and the spy chiefs in the room. I also see the red-haired woman picking up Watson on the bus as a set-up for the Toby Jones character in the next episode, and with Watson being a flirt and a new father, she is a distraction not an emotional affair.

As for the dead kid in the car, if you have something in your house/yard that has been there for a while, you rarely notice if anything is different; although, I would think the smell of a decomposing body would be noticeable.

[Kostgard]

Oh, his show confounds and disappoints me. The cast is still great, the look is still great, but they just don't know what to do with it. I would say they should bring in fresh blood to the writing team, but I suspect there is some truth to this being the last season, and they might as well just let it go. 

I've always been torn on Mary as a character. I enjoyed AA's performance. The idea of a secret agent/assassin trying (and failing) to have a normal life is an interesting one, but it never quite gelled for me, and I think adding a third character like this threw off the dynamic in a way I didn't enjoy. So I'm sad to see her go...yet I'm not. Not really. But I'm not rejoicing because her death won't fix what I feel the show has lost and dammit, her death was effing stupid.

I get that Sherlock thought this was his appointment with death (which is why he just stood there) but that it was actually Mary's appointment. That's fine. But they should have made it solely about Mary's chickens coming home to roost. HER life decisions finally catching up to her, not about Sherlock. At all. The only part where he comes in is him learning that his vow is impossible to keep. That Mary and John are people with free will who make their own (often dangerous/stupid) decisions and Sherlock can't just roll them up in bubble wrap and keep the world at bay. Both Sherlock and John need to learn that Sherlock is in fact not Superman, but a mere mortal like the rest of us, and shit will happen that he can't stop. Mary's death could have been solely about Mary and still conveyed that lesson. 

On first viewing, I thought Mary was just trying to push Sherlock out of the way and caught the bullet, but watching it again, I see that she stepped in front of him to intentionally take the bullet. WTF. I get she likes Sherlock, but she has a child! A baby who was just robbed of her mother! Completely stupid. All to involve Sherlock more and up his guilt load. Gah!

As for John and his chippie from the bus, I buy it as a straight up affair. He's always had an eye for the ladies, feeling like the odd man out when Mary and Sherlock teamed up, feeling vulnerable and unattractive as a new father and therefore prone to the attentions of a pretty lady, perhaps resentful of all of Mary's secrets/lies (he repeatedly brought up "all the lies" - though that is partially on him. She gave him the opportunity to read the files on the drive and he didn't take it), or a million other reasons. The only part I don't buy in that scenario is neither Sherlock nor Mary noticing. Maybe he was testing them to see if they would. On the other hand, I can also buy that it was not what it seemed and/or she was some sort of plant (a clue that the only time we see Toby  Jones' mug is next to her at the bus stop?). And we never learn her real name (the note just said "Exx"). I file the affair under "stay tuned."

Toby the dog was a total waste. They should have made it explicitly about Sherlock wanting an excuse to play with the dog (especially with the Redbeard memories floating around his head).

And I agree with the recap in that all Molly does now is deal with other people's shit. She's a damn doctor. Put her back in the lab. Then hook her up with Lestrade.

[zxy556575]

Even the small bit of mystery we did get was foolish. Anyone who wanted to hide in a dark car as a surprise would, you know, bend down below the dashboard.

Ringing the doorbell and saying "surprise!" would also work, without the potential for scaring Dad to death by leaping out at him wearing a black seat shroud.

[SVNBob]

1 hour ago, Kostgard said:

Toby the dog was a total waste.

Another deliberate call-back to the original Doyle canon.  In particular "The Sign of the Four", which introduced Mary Morstan ("a distinct touch").  In that instance, Toby was a mutt following the scent of creosote (wood tar), instead of a bloodhound following blood.  But the result was mostly the same; Toby losing the scent.  Although Toby the mutt was able to backtrack and correct his missteps, and find the correct trail.  Toby the bloodhound; not so much.

[spottedreptile]

8 hours ago, Cthulhudrew said:

I'm guessing John's anger with Sherlock is misplaced guilt?

Almost totally I think. Sherlock is an easy target for it. Guilt and self-denial, and also inadequacy. 

How I miss Season 1. The fun of it all. That seems to have completely gone in favour of SERIOUS, HEAVY themes juxtaposed with quite cheap melodrama but nothing to lighten it. No leaven for all that doughy weightiness. The actors were also not fully committing it seemed to me. A couple of times I almost felt that Benedict was phoning it in. I wouldn't be surprised if this was the last series, it's worn out with the current writers who don't seem to be able to bring anything fresh to it. Sad but RIP Sherlock I really enjoyed you once. Now you're dull. 

[cmahorror]

I feel stupid - I thought Toby was a sweet little shout out to the Disney classic "The Great Mouse Detective." The movie is based on the books Basil of Baker Street and focus on a mouse version of Sherlock Holmes.

[SVNBob]

3 minutes ago, cmahorror said:

I feel stupid - I thought Toby was a sweet little shout out to the Disney classic "The Great Mouse Detective."

Don't feel stupid.  That Toby was also a shout-out to the original Toby that Doyle wrote about.  And from what I can tell, he was "invented" for the Disney film (as Sherlock's pet!) and not in the original Basil stories.  So a deliberate shout-out on Disney's part.

That said, Gatiss and Moffat have always claimed that all versions of Holmesian canon are "fair game" for them to include as in-jokes, shout-outs, and back-stories.  So Toby might have been included with more Disney in mind, since they'd already heavily gone to the "Sign of the Four" well in Series 3.  If he'd been a basset instead of a bloodhound, I'd put money on it.

[MissLucas]

17 hours ago, Peace 47 said:

Sherlock also has that dream of what I assume is his younger self in a pirate hat running along a path with Redbeard and another young person (too young to be Mycroft).  Water, pirates ... any connections?

There were some deliberate hints at Sherlock's childhood in this episode. Mycroft mentioning the 'other one' in the previously when talking about 'brotherly compassion', Sherlock's dream and Mycroft also remembers that kid-Sherlock changed the Samara story and turned the merchant into a pirate. I guess it's safe to assume that the lost brother himself or his tale will become a vital plot point later this season. He may be Sherrinford - a name found in ACD's notes in what looks like a brainstorming session for a first name for his hero. But in the bizzare and quite amusing world of the Sherlockian game he was turned into the oldest Holmes brothers since there are some hints that Mycroft and Sherlock were (literally) 'to the manor born' but neither of them is a country squire.

Edited January 3, 2017 by MissLucas

[Mom x 3]

19 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

Yes, Molly babysitting Rosamond and widower-sitting John Watson "bothered" me ...  was she there in hope of "being there" exactly for that moment of talking to Sherlock?  

I'm thinking she was probably on some kind of compassionate leave, since she was the Godmother, but that is pure speculation.  

18 hours ago, sjankis630 said:

Oh and while he was cute the whole scene with the bloodhound with all the exciting sounds and graphics coming over the screen could have been cut entirely and nothing would have been missed.

It could have been cut, but I loved it.  In the original stories I felt like Sherlock respected that dog more than most people, so to show Toby processing his surroundings much like Sherlock does gave me a chuckle.  

15 hours ago, lordonia said:

Does it seem like Cumberbatch has kind of forgotten how to play Sherlock?

That, or the director said "Play the entire episode like you are in a manic episode!"

15 hours ago, statsgirl said:

I perfectly understand John emotionally cheating.  From the first episode, he was presented as an adrenalin junkie and marriage + baby is boring.  It makes me like him a lot less though.  Fortunately, as the single parent of an infant, he's not going to have time to have any affairs any more.

I don't know.  He shot a man to save Sherlock very shortly after meeting him - that is a testament to his loyalty.  I just can't see him doing this.  Also, he was a flirt in the original stories, but never while married.  

7 hours ago, cmahorror said:

I feel stupid - I thought Toby was a sweet little shout out to the Disney classic "The Great Mouse Detective." The movie is based on the books Basil of Baker Street and focus on a mouse version of Sherlock Holmes.

 

I loved this movie!  One of the best adaptations of Holmes, in my opinion, and the fact that they used Basil Rathbone's voice to do Holmes' voice at the end just sealed the deal.  And can you really beat Vincent Price?  

Edited January 3, 2017 by Mom x 3
Spelling matters

[Netfoot]

23 hours ago, Writing Wrongs said:

Is there a big distinction between saying "ass" and "asshole"? Because I swear PBS muted the "hole" part.

When you hear "ass" you think of Jebus riding on one.  

When you hear "asshole" you think goatse.

So... not the same thing at all.

[khyber]

The Khyber household was disappointed with this episode. Sherlock fighting like an action hero with a trained assassin? Disjointed script, over acting, etc.  Hope it gets back on track.

[Peace 47]

I meant to ask: what is the deal with this baby? Yes, the rattle scene was adorable, but other than that, I don't really understand what the baby has otherwise added to the story.  Like, I get what others have said that new parenthood can be a particularly vulnerable time for married relationships, and that could help support the affair angle, but frankly, John and Mary had a boatload of issues without even touching on any baby stuff, and the affair was such an odd beat that we didn't see John actually being outwardly unhappy or expressing notable dissatisfaction with parenthood or life in general, just "new baby" tiredness.  It made him seem even more of a douche that he is tempted by the first pretty face who smiles at him.

In "His Last Vow" they at least showed that John was haunted by dreams of not being out with Sherlock as evidence that he maybe wasn't cut out for suburban life, but they kind of needed to revisit that here if it was going to be an issue.  

Totally different point:  Mary's hair looked so pretty this entire episode.  The wavy curls and slightly darker shade of blond suited her way better than the platinum blond and severe cut of "His Last Vow."  It's weird that both John and Mary changed their looks, though, without a significant passage of in-show time, and not one person in the show commented on it.  I didn't like John's structured swoop.  I thought it aged him.

[TomServo]

1 hour ago, Peace 47 said:

 I didn't like John's structured swoop.  I thought it aged him.

I thought it made him look like Anderson Cooper, and not in a good way.

[callie lee 29]

20 hours ago, cmahorror said:

The flash drives plotline reminds me of the 80's - back when some people would say there would never be a nuclear war because it would be MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction). I really think that is what they were shooting for.

It probably didn't help that the flash drives iv question were ginormous!! Seriously, nothing smaller was available!

 

Regarding the dog, I read an article on Sunday that talked about how the dog didn't want to move. The scene where he just sits there ibn the sidewalk - because he was afraid of pavement.

[Charlesman]

11 hours ago, lordonia said:

Even the small bit of mystery we did get was foolish. Anyone who wanted to hide in a dark car as a surprise would, you know, bend down below the dashboard.

 

 

Heh, totally. Spending the money to custom-create a vinyl faux-seat costume for a 3-second gag seemed a bit much, even for the posh privileged. Hiding in the car is soooo much more what some 19-year old kid would do.

[DavidJSnyder]

4 hours ago, khyber said:

The Khyber household was disappointed with this episode. Sherlock fighting like an action hero with a trained assassin?

I had troubles with the episode, but Sherlock was already bare hand fighting a guy with a sword back in Season 1, Episode 2.  This is nothing new.

[SimoneS]

On 1/2/2017 at 3:32 PM, SusanSunflower said:

Yes, Molly babysitting Rosamond and widower-sitting John Watson "bothered" me ...  was she there in hope of "being there" exactly for that moment of talking to Sherlock?  did she have a preexisting personal relationship with Mr. and Mrs. Watson outside of Sherlock and various "cases" that they shared?  Making her (a qualified professional scientist/medical examiner) again a pathetic Sherlock-hanger-on/crush/shipper? 

So it was her. Pathetic. She should have been involved in solving the case, not babysitting. People praise Gatiss, but really, he should be embarrassed for churning out this rubbish that marginalizes the one remaining female character.

[Clanstarling]

18 hours ago, KaleyFirefly said:

I just felt that she never fit in and was a problematic character.

One of the things I liked about her is that I thought she fit perfectly - the three of them seemed like a really good team. I am sad that she's gone.

John's hair seems to be Martin's hair these days. I saw  him on a recent Graham Norton, and was somewhat dismayed. I always thought he was attractive in that average man kind of way - but that hair just screams douche to me.

It was a bit of a jumble, which I thought was because I watched it in two sittings. But judging by the conversations here, I guess it wasn't just my mode of viewing.

As for the guttural sobbing - I didn't have a hard time with it, or find it amusing. Hearing it in living context takes the ridiculous out of it. I heard if from a grieving mother, and was shattered by the sound. I gave Freeman a pass, figuring he was trying to mimic someone he'd heard in the grips of that kind of grief.

Add me to those who think John, as we've come to know him, would never - ever - cheat on Mary. Emotionally or physically.

Edited January 3, 2017 by Clanstarling

[rereader2]

7 hours ago, khyber said:

The Khyber household was disappointed with this episode. Sherlock fighting like an action hero with a trained assassin? Disjointed script, over acting, etc.  Hope it gets back on track.

Sherlock being slightly superhuman with the fighting is actually ACD canon--Watson praises his sword fighting skills, and a professional boxer acting as bullyboy recognizes Holmes as someone who beat him in a match. Also when another bullyboy comes in and bends their poker as a threat, Holmes straightens it with very little effort--and that is a much more difficult trick. And of course, in The Empty House, Holmes tells Watson he is an expert in a (nonexistent or misspelled, choose your choice) martial art.

[rereader2]

5 hours ago, callie lee 29 said:

Regarding the dog, I read an article on Sunday that talked about how the dog didn't want to move. The scene where he just sits there ibn the sidewalk - because he was afraid of pavement.

I just listened to the Masterpiece Mystery interview with Amanda Abington, and she mentioned that Toby was played by two separate dogs on two separate days, both of which refused to do anything at all. That bit with John asking when the dog was going to do something and Sherlock saying to give him time, that was written by Mofftiss right there on the sidewalk to cover.

[snarktini]

5 hours ago, Charlesman said:

 

Heh, totally. Spending the money to custom-create a vinyl faux-seat costume for a 3-second gag seemed a bit much, even for the posh privileged. Hiding in the car is soooo much more what some 19-year old kid would do.

The "invisible driver" car seat prank was an actual thing a few years ago, several videos went viral of comedians rolling up to drive-through windows hidden under the fake car seat cover. It's dumb, but it's not new and it's a "costume" one could buy. (It's surprisingly effectively when you see video of it.)