S04.E01: The Six Thatchers

[Tara Ariano]

Quote

In the Season 4 premiere, Holmes awaits Moriarty's posthumous move; and becomes preoccupied with why someone is destroying images of the late prime minister Margaret Thatcher.

[FanOfDorks]

Can't wait til Sunday.

[lorbeer]

Well... I never really liked Mary but now I'm quite confused. Wonder what's going to happen next...

[ChlcGirl]

Spoil me please!!! What happened to Mary???? Feel free to PM please!!

[TheOtherOne]

Based on her fate in the stories, I was bracing myself for Mary to die in this run of episodes, but that--sacrificing herself to save Sherlock? Weak.

Boy, they really cranked it up to make John feel as guilty as possible. When Mary told him he was her whole world, I started to cry. Brutal. I didn't trust the emotional affair woman for a second. An obvious setup. Are we supposed to suspect he went all the way with her aftet he ran into her again?

Still, a compelling episode that had me enthralled throughout. Glad the show is back.

[SharonH58]

30 minutes in.  I am not liking this.  Sherlock is odd,  too hyper and too different.  Too much cutesy stuff,  and nothing is making any sense.  I hope it gets better.  I am on eastern US time and seems like the person above has already seen it.

[April Bloodgate]

21 minutes ago, SharonH58 said:

I am on eastern US time and seems like the person above has already seen it.

I'm in the US and I just finished it. It was already available for me to watch online via Xfinity (My parents have cable and I use their login).

[April Bloodgate]

I never cared much for Mary, so this didn't have the emotional impact for me that it seems like it did for a lot of others. Also, I know some people are confused that it seems like Mary liked Sherlock but then she told him to "go to hell" at the end. But I think that she was saying he'll have to go a metaphorical hell to save John. But no idea where/what that is or what John will need saving from.

[AimingforYoko]

Man, how did everyone but Sherlock see that old lady had completely exhausted her supply of fucks? Sad for John, I imagine there's a bit of guilt for his dalliance (Emotional or otherwise) mixed in his anger at Sherlock.

[cmahorror]

I loved Mary so I am very upset that they killed her off, even if she did get a hero's death (saving Sherlock). Mary seemed to sense that Sherlock was poking the bear, so to speak, because she kept trying to warn him off. She was one of my favorite parts of Series Three and I am really going to miss her.

I kept saying "John, No!" at the screen during the scenes with his emotional affair. It also was completely and totally out of John's nature to have any kind of inappropriate relationship with this woman. John is many things but, above almost everything else, he is loyal and would never betray someone he loves that way. Yes, Sherlock was a little hyper but he was still true to his basic character.

I am curious at the 13th note on Mycroft's refrigerator - what the hell does it mean?

I loved Sherlock trying to get Rosie to not throw the rattle down - what he didn't realize was that the game was on and it's name was Pick-Up lol.

Edited January 2, 2017 by cmahorror
Because two and three are different numbers lol

[benteen]

I really enjoyed it though I was sad that Mary got killed.

[peridot]

I wasn't really feeling this episode.  Since when is Sherlock so manic and glued to his phone?  Everyone seemed like different people this episode.

The red head had to be stalking John, right?

[photo fox]

I love Amanda Abbingdon, but too much Mary. Not screen time, necessarily, but focus.

Overall, I liked it, though. But I can't think of a single quotable moment. Hm.

[ChlcGirl]

So glad it's back!! 

I am leaving this episode feeling angry at John, which is certainly not a new feeling.  Sherlock is difficult and frustrating, but he never makes any other claim, whereas John believes he is a good guy but ends up doing shitty things.  You don't have the moral high ground in this case, buddy.

Loved the episode, and I'm hoping this goes more like series 1 & 2 than 3.

[Bahama Mama]

Who is Sherrinford?  A Holmes brother?  Mycroft placed a call to him at the end.

Edited January 2, 2017 by Bahama Mama

[tootsie]

Always so visually pleasing. Really, really liked the circling sharks in the aquarium as backdrop to that particular drama. As usual, will have to watch it a 2nd time. Sensory overload so I always miss something important the 1st time through. 

[MisterGlass]

Huh.   This was kind of all over the place, and bordering on incoherent. I like it better when they focus on a story and the clues, building to a conclusion.  This episode couldn't decide where to focus. I agree with the comments above that characterization was a bit off. 

[Michichick]

Well, that made me angry. I will probably watch it again tomorrow, but right now I'm mad that they killed Mary and also mad that John either cheated or at least had an emotional affair.

[benteen]

Mary's death wasn't much of a surprise considering the showrunners all but announced this would happen a year ago.

I agree that the episode was a little all over the place but thought they righted the ship about thirty minutes in.

[j5cochran]

6 minutes ago, Bahama Mama said:

Who is Sherrington?  A Holmes brother?

Sherrinford was a supposed brother, according to a biography of Holmes written by William S. Baring-Gould.  I've been waiting for him (or someone like him) since the odd comment at the end of the last season, about "the other one".

[johntfs]

Also who's Sherringford, the other brother?  For my part, I missed Janine.  This show still does the thing that makes Elementary an order of magnitude better.  It takes a regular 42-45 minute mystery show and blows it up with filler to fit the 90 minute commercial free run time.  The bit with the IM affair was ridiculous and became even more so when I realized, "Oh yeah.  Mary's gonna die this episode so John will need another love interest.  So this is the show getting cracking on that shit."

[Michichick]

4 minutes ago, benteen said:

Mary's death wasn't much of a surprise considering the showrunners all but announced this would happen a year ago.

I agree that the episode was a little all over the place but thought they righted the ship about thirty minutes in.

It was a surprise to me because I haven't read much about the show. I probably wouldn't be so ticked off about it if I'd known it was coming.

[tennisgurl]

I thought that was pretty good, in that the case was interesting and I didn't see it all coming, but the character stuff was pretty questionable. Since when is John the kind of guy who has an emotional affair ( I assume it was just emotional) right after having a daughter with the wife he loves? His biggest trait is his loyalty to the people he loves, but now he has a thing with some random woman because...because? Also, maybe I am missing something, but I have NO CLUE why he`s so pissed off at Sherlock. Marys death was not his fault at all. Mary choose to jump in front of him, he had nothing to do with it. Yeah, he promised to take care of Mary and John, but he can only do so much. Sherlock might not enjoy admitting it, but he is a mere mortal. He isn't faster than a speeding bullet. I get John being upset right after it happened, but I am going to be really annoyed if we have to sit through a whole season of John being pissed off at Sherlock for stuff that isn't his fault. 

I liked Mary, so I`m sad that she died. I guess I knew it was coming, but it still, it sucked. It was at least a decent death scene. 

John and Sherlock clearly need to make up soon, so we can get more of The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes, Babysitter!

Edited January 2, 2017 by tennisgurl

[The Bullpen]

I apparently missed the reference to Sherrinford. Can someone fill me in?

[Chaos Theory]

I am not sure if I am in the minority or not but I want to at least put it out there.  I really loved Mary.  I thought she put an interesting dynamic into the show.  I am going to miss her.  That being said I do understand at least why the show killed her off.   

Still.......  Boooooooooooo!!!!!!  That sucked.  I hate you show.  I will never watch you again.  Boooo!   Ok I got that out of my system.  When is the next episode?  

Oh and I kinda guessed the secretary was guilty once I figure out the other lady wasn't.  Plus with Mary saying something about secretaries knowing everything or something to that nature it made sense and was kinda ironic.   Would have liked to see more about AGRA.  Lost opportunity.  Booooooooooo!  Guess I am not over it.  May take a minute.  

Wait! was John cheating on Mary?  

May take more then a minute. 

Edited January 2, 2017 by Chaos Theory

[Starchild]

That first case, with the boy sitting dead outside his parents' house for a week, was really sad.

Like others, I felt that John's affair was totally out of character. Even if he was a bit intrigued and flattered, the John we've been shown from the beginning would never actually act on those feelings. Disappointingly contrived.

[callie lee 29]

At the end when Mycroft went to his fridge he pulled a calendar our something off the door, looked at a sticky note underneath, and then picked up the phone and told whomever was on the other end to get him Sherrinford.

[Amers]

5 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I thought that was pretty good, in that the case was interesting and I didn't see it all coming, but the character stuff was pretty questionable. Since when is John the kind of guy who has an emotional affair ( I assume it was just emotional) right after having a daughter with the wife he loves? His biggest trait is his loyalty to the people he loves, but now he has a thing with some random woman because...because? Also, maybe I am missing something, but I have NO CLUE why he`s so pissed off at Sherlock. Marys death was not his fault at all. Mary choose to jump in front of him, he had nothing to do with it. Yeah, he promised to take care of Mary and John, but he can only do so much. Sherlock might not enjoy admitting it, but he is a mere mortal. He isn't faster than a speeding bullet. I get John being upset right after it happened, but I am going to be really annoyed if we have to sit through a whole season of John being pissed off at Sherlock for stuff that isn't his fault. 

I liked Mary, so I`m sad that she died. I guess I knew it was coming, but it still, it sucked. It was at least a decent death scene. 

John and Sherlock clearly need to make up soon, so we can get more of The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes, Babysitter!

This was literally everything I was going to say. It is completely out of character for John Watson to want a bang a chick who simply smiles at him. 

They never said what happened to Gabriel from A.G.R.A so I am banking on John's new lady being Gabriel. 

 

Sherlock did nothing wrong. I don't understand the anger. It's unwarranted and made.little sense. 

 

They just dropped the Moriarty stuff. It felt like a hook and then they just let it go. 

 

But John. This episode was so.not.John. 

[Michichick]

Tennisgurl, I think John is mad at Sherlock because Sherlock kept blathering at the woman and winding her up. If he hadn't kept talking and insulting her, she may not have taken a shot at anyone. 

[Starchild]

John wasn't there while Sherlock was showing off. He came in after Mary was shot.

[Amers]

1 minute ago, Michichick said:

Tennisgurl, I think John is mad at Sherlock because Sherlock kept blathering at the woman and winding her up. If he hadn't kept talking and insulting her, she may not have taken a shot at anyone. 

But John wasn't in the room for that. I thought he appeared after the shot. 

[callie lee 29]

Quote

They never said what happened to Gabriel from A.G.R.A so I am banking on John's new lady being Gabriel.

yes, thank you!! That was bugging me till the end. 

I had no idea Mary was going to die - I always liked her relationship with Sherlock, I'm going to miss that.

[Starchild]

John's only possible motivation for being angry at Sherlock would be that Sherlock kept saying over and over again throughout the situation that he would keep them safe, and then he didn't. So it's probably a heat-of-the-moment thing fueled by grief, guilt and displaced rage. He'll get over it in time.

[Michichick]

9 minutes ago, Starchild said:

John wasn't there while Sherlock was showing off. He came in after Mary was shot.

Well then, I've got nothing. :)

[TrininisaScorp]

I was happy to see this back!  Not disappointed, but def needed a second watch.  I think we've been working our way to Mary's death, so I was saddened when it happened, but not surprised.   A nice bit of irony considering that time she shot him. 

I do think both Benedict and Martin feel like they are playing Sherlock and John a bit differently.  I got more comfortable with Sherlock more quickly; frankly, I'm struggling with John (not even to speak of his thing with that CLEARLY questionable chick).  Mary's death should continue to have very significant impact on all parties.  I agree that "Go to hell, Sherlock" was more about what he'd have to do to save John.  Also, I feel like Mary could have avoided some of this from John if she send him a video like this one b/c she would always have consequences.   I also agree that John's anger is coming from projecting onto Sherlock of his own shortcomings, guilt and disappointment.

My favorite moments in this episode came from the minor characters:  My girl Molly both having a laugh at and chastising Sherlock AND then, sadly, following John's wishes; I like that she's talking to him like a normal person.  Mrs. Hudson crying and Sherlock wasn't mean to her at the end & he  even gave her a ego check in Norsbury.  Lestrasde being so pleased Sherlock said Greg. 

Edited January 2, 2017 by TrininisaScorp

[alphacat]

25 minutes ago, Starchild said:

John's only possible motivation for being angry at Sherlock would be that Sherlock kept saying over and over again throughout the situation that he would keep them safe, and then he didn't. So it's probably a heat-of-the-moment thing fueled by grief, guilt and displaced rage. He'll get over it in time.

This is what I thought, too. Add to that, Sherlock was focusing on so many things (Moriarty, other cases, etc.) that maybe John thought he was distracted from his focus on Mary and therefore hindered Sherlock's ability to keep her safe.

On the "affair" - maybe I missed something (I was watching with someone who wasn't following at all so had to translate here and there, so I was a little distracted) but it seemed to me to be ill-advised flirting that was setting up something to come. I'm not sure that I would call it an emotional affair - he and Mary were exhausted, Sherlock was hyper, lots of changes, Mary's past (already a sore spot) was coming back to haunt them and he was angry, etc. Sometimes people do things they wouldn't normally do and it contributes to his grief and anger at the end. Now, if he actually cheated or if he was more emotionally engaged than it seemed to me, I'll take back all my rationalizing! However, I do think, on her part, she is setting something up.

In preparation, I re-watched many of the past episodes over the weekend, so I'm very happy to have the show back. My concern is more about what they will do with the baby - while Sherlock the babysitter was fun, I'm not sure I'm excited about a baby in the mix.

[Eliza422]

I feel like I have whiplash after watching that. I've never liked Mary, especially after they made her a super spy, so I'm glad she got the heave ho.

There were so many different tangents I had a hard time keeping track of what was going on. I'd watch again but there was so much Mary I don't think I could stand it.

Edited January 2, 2017 by Eliza422

[Peace 47]

1 hour ago, photo fox said:

I love Amanda Abbingdon, but too much Mary. Not screen time, necessarily, but focus.

Amanda the actress was really good in this, but I agree that there was a super-focus on Mary, and the (un?)intended consequence was that John felt entirely superfluous to the main proceedings.  John was mostly set dressing during the AGRA revelations, except when he was being a colossal dick in being emotionally unfaithful.  (Like, look, John, my man, I get it if you would have found her assassin past and her lying from the day you met her and her shooting and nearly killing your best friend as all relationship deal breakers, but if those are *not* your deal breakers, then you've got to stick it out.)

2 hours ago, April Bloodgate said:

Also, I know some people are confused that it seems like Mary liked Sherlock but then she told him to "go to hell" at the end. But I think that she was saying he'll have to go a metaphorical hell to save John. But no idea where/what that is or what John will need saving from.

They're playing with some ambiguity there for sure.  After being well acquainted with Moriarty's "Did you miss me?" video for 3 years, I'm getting a little sick of these video teases, though.

The plot felt to me like it was all over the place.  Like, the beginning was about "Moriarty" (and I thought, thank god, we finally get some answers), but then, as after the S1 cliffhanger, they just go back to business because Sherlock is the "target" and had to wait this out (read:  they're stalling for episode 3, just like they did in S2).  So then we get the sad case of the boy who died (which was the best part in terms of plot), before going down the rabbit hole with Georgia, and assassins, and Rosamund and multiple flashbacks and time jumps, and man, just throw me a bone and tie something off.

Weird moment:  the skull painting in 221B is different from prior seasons and was at some points glowing in this episode.  I don't know what that was about.  Did anyone see that?

1 hour ago, Starchild said:

So it's probably a heat-of-the-moment thing fueled by grief, guilt and displaced rage. He'll get over it in time.

People have sometimes in the past complained about the treatment of women on this show, and other instances didn't bother me in particular, but the fact that John blames Sherlock for not keeping Mary safe really burned my biscuits. Mary was her own woman who made the choice to step in front of the bullet, to go into a dangerous situation in Morraco, to meet with Sherlock about the AGRA drive, etc.  She was not the little woman in need of a 24/7 bodyguard and incapable of defending herself. I completely understand transferred anger in bereavement situations, but Sherlock has done so much for John, including killing Magnussen so that Mary could have her life and keeping quiet about Mary's whole attempted murder of Sherlock.  John owes Sherlock, and displayed no loyalty to him, or even affection, at all in this episode.  I liked Sherlock a lot in this episode and very nearly hated John.

Edited January 2, 2017 by Peace 47

[buttersister]

Sherlock in therapy? John texting a random women when his wife goes to get their baby? What was with that one quick cut to a shot of Sherlock with flat hair? I suppose there are other episodes with out-of-character appearing things happening that get explained in later eps (although having watched a lot of today's marathon of earlier seasons, none come to mind for these).

Therapy (with John's former therapist?) is shortcut for him realizing his high-functioning sociopath shtick could use some work---and it felt like it. John's uber-grief cry wasn't out of character, but it did sound like some guilt mixed in there.

Meantime, I think about the times John has told Sherlock that he saved him, so I'll assume he'd said the same thing to Mary along the way. Her "job" for Sherlock just seemed like asking a friend to take care of his friend in the event that she was dead (she's liked Sherlock from the beginning, so no surprise there).

Since the aquarium is underground, I guess Mycroft was going somewhere with phone coverage to call for that ambulance, so nice detail, although you'd think that with his job, he'd have a magic hot spot on him!

Edited January 2, 2017 by buttersister
To apologize for the choppy post, but then, choppy ep.

[tennisgurl]

48 minutes ago, Starchild said:

John's only possible motivation for being angry at Sherlock would be that Sherlock kept saying over and over again throughout the situation that he would keep them safe, and then he didn't. So it's probably a heat-of-the-moment thing fueled by grief, guilt and displaced rage. He'll get over it in time.

I hope that is where they are going with this, as its the only thing that would make sense. I didn't blame him for being angry at first, but it seemed like some time had past when he saw Molly, and she passed on that Screw You letter from John to Sherlock, so he was still mad at that point, so I think this is going to get stretched out. I want him to get over being mad at Sherlock soon though. Everyone knows they'll make up, especially considering John has to be more mad at himself than Sherlock, as you said, and its a waste to have the main characters not talking for the whole season over something that wasn't even Sherlock's fault.    

[johntfs]

1 hour ago, Starchild said:

John wasn't there while Sherlock was showing off. He came in after Mary was shot.

John knows Mary and he knows Sherlock.  Plus, why was Mary even there?  Tell Mycroft and Lestrade, they'll arrest her and then Sherlock can taunt the evil old biddy at the police station (or some MI6 black site) after she's safely disarmed.

[benteen]

I guess they ignored the Christmas special since Sherlock walked away from that convinced that Moriarty was dead and that he wasn't behind this.

[Peace 47]

4 minutes ago, benteen said:

I guess they ignored the Christmas special since Sherlock walked away from that convinced that Moriarty was dead and that he wasn't behind this.

I don't think so.  Sherlock still agreed that Moriarty was dead in this episode, just that he may have laid additional traps before dying.

They mentioned again in this episode that "it is never twins."  They mentioned that in The Abominable Bride last year, too.  I'm now relatively sure that they are laying the groundwork for some kind of twin to make an appearance, whether it be Mary's, Moriarty's or Sherlock's.

[Starchild]

Or Mycroft's?

[angora]

When Sherlock kept pushing the old woman, I was convinced he was intentionally riling her up so she'd be focused on HIM rather than Mary (who she'd been pointing the gun at earlier in the scene,) continuing his vow to keep her safe, only she threw a wrench in his plans when she jumped in front of the bullet.  I thought that would've been an interesting way to go about it - it would've tied in with the idea of the Samara story and causing the very thing you're working so desperately to avoid, as well as the idea of unpredictability, i.e., no matter how well you think it through, there are some variables you can never account for.  Sherlock's arrogance still could've been a factor, so assured that he knew exactly what he was doing, but it would've been neat to such an awful consequence when he was actively trying to help.

Also, the repeated falling anvils of "I will keep you safe," "I made a vow," and "People in her line of work don't often live long enough to retire," were giving me serious flashbacks to series 9 of Doctor Who (meanwhile, John blaming Sherlock for it based on things that Sherlock couldn't control were giving me flashbacks to Doctor Who's series 8 two-part finale.)

[zxy556575]

I can't be the only one who knew from the start that something had to be hidden in the Thatcher busts? Quite careless of super spy Ajay to break them on the premises instead of just stealing them.

Sherlock always gets antsy and manic when he doesn't have a case so that behavior didn't strike me as odd, but I didn't at all buy John flirting and possibly being unfaithful. I can't even ascribe it to him still subconsciously being hurt and angry at Mary for her lies. It's just not him.

If Gatiss/Moffat, and possibly Freeman, want John to have more depth and layers other than being the rather plodding expositional sidekick of the books, they've already done that. No need to give the man a completely new personality.

And really, haven't we already done the "John is furious with Sherlock" storyline last season?

I liked Mary and enjoyed her expanded role as part of a crime-fighting trio, mostly because it provided a way for John to still be involved in Sherlock's life and cases without unrealistically abandoning his home life. But I'm not bewailing her death by any means.

[Mom x 3]

Meh.  I didn't really care for this at all.  The bit with Sherlock on his phone 24/7 was annoying and made him seem a bigger jerk than usual.  It felt like his camaraderie with John was replaced with a similar feeling with Mary.  Toby was shoehorned in.  John flirting with another girl was TOTALLY out of character and stupid.  Poor Lestrade and Molly had less to do than usual.  John being angry was stupid as well, because she jumped in front of the damned bullet, which honestly makes her stupid too.  If she had time to lunge four feet over, he could have moved his ass.  

TL:DR - Meh, this was not to my taste.  

[LiveenLetLive]

What is the point of the baby in the series? I have always found the baby angle annoying--John and Mary are in their 40's it would not have been odd at all if that hadn't had a child. As for Mary, I was never a big fan, so bye-bye.

[Starchild]

8 minutes ago, lordonia said:

I can't be the only one who knew from the start that something had to be hidden in the Thatcher busts?

Nope, any fan of the Doyle stories would know there was something hidden in one. They even referenced Napoleon (which is who the busts were of in the story).

[NorthstarATL]

16 minutes ago, LiveenLetLive said:

What is the point of the baby in the series? I have always found the baby angle annoying--John and Mary are in their 40's it would not have been odd at all if that hadn't had a child. As for Mary, I was never a big fan, so bye-bye.

There is nothing cuter or more shippable than two men and a baby. Nature disagrees; thus, we had Mary. Now, she has served her purpose.