S01.E05: Golden Era

[iMonrey]

Quote

By the way, what kind of rat-assed organization is it that, within three months of joining, promotes a 15-year old to an executive position? 

There seems to be a recurring theme with everyone she interviews, in that they all seem to have joined the church very young and were very quickly promoted to an important rank or position. It may speak to the fact that there are actually so few new members that anyone with any aptitude is quickly found a position to fulfill. 

On the other hand, I have to say this was the first time I started to doubt the veracity of some of the claims this show is making. They keep interviewing these guys who claim Miscavige beat them up and yet Marc is a big guy. I suppose he could have just been taken by surprise, but how could 5-foot-nothing David Miscavige throw a clearly much larger man up against a wall? Plus there was something just a little off about the interaction between Marc and Claire, like her needing to pipe up and point out that he didn't want to say anything to the cops because he was afraid for her safety. Or the way they were sort of chuckling over the fact that she had informed on him.

Not saying this whole thing is a lie and clearly these escape stories are some scary shit. Just saying, this particular interview had me raising my eyebrows a couple of times and made me start to wonder if some of these stories are somewhat embellished for effect.

[spiderpig]

52 minutes ago, wings707 said:

Brilliant.  Thundering applause!  

 

 

I love truffles, where do I buy your book?

Well, wings - my writings are published in complete sets (to be revised at least every other year).  So once you cash in your 401K and take a second on your house, I'm sure we can negotiate a really good price.

[Wings]

5 minutes ago, spiderpig said:

Well, wings - my writings are published in complete sets (to be revised at least every other year).  So once you cash in your 401K and take a second on your house, I'm sure we can negotiate a really good price.

Well, I love carrots so I have to decline.  It has to be all or nothing.

[Diane Mars]

11 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

There seems to be a recurring theme with everyone she interviews, in that they all seem to have joined the church very young and were very quickly promoted to an important rank or position. It may speak to the fact that there are actually so few new members that anyone with any aptitude is quickly found a position to fulfill. 

On the other hand, I have to say this was the first time I started to doubt the veracity of some of the claims this show is making. They keep interviewing these guys who claim Miscavige beat them up and yet Marc is a big guy. I suppose he could have just been taken by surprise, but how could 5-foot-nothing David Miscavige throw a clearly much larger man up against a wall? Plus there was something just a little off about the interaction between Marc and Claire, like her needing to pipe up and point out that he didn't want to say anything to the cops because he was afraid for her safety. Or the way they were sort of chuckling over the fact that she had informed on him.

Not saying this whole thing is a lie and clearly these escape stories are some scary shit. Just saying, this particular interview had me raising my eyebrows a couple of times and made me start to wonder if some of these stories are somewhat embellished for effect.

Mark and Claire are featured here :

[Whimsy]

8 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

On the other hand, I have to say this was the first time I started to doubt the veracity of some of the claims this show is making. They keep interviewing these guys who claim Miscavige beat them up and yet Marc is a big guy. I suppose he could have just been taken by surprise, but how could 5-foot-nothing David Miscavige throw a clearly much larger man up against a wall? Plus there was something just a little off about the interaction between Marc and Claire, like her needing to pipe up and point out that he didn't want to say anything to the cops because he was afraid for her safety. Or the way they were sort of chuckling over the fact that she had informed on him.

I understand why these larger men are kowtowing to Miscavige.  Miscavige is the highest ranking person in their "religion".  So, they probably are 1. at first taken aback that he's attacking them (with the first attack- Leah was surprised to learn that Miscavige was physically abusive), 2. thinking that the  "leader" is attacking you it must be warranted and 3. afraid of the repercussions (being thrown in the hold, or whatever).  There's just something mentally hard to explain when you're being abused like that- somewhat different, but my mother was 4'11" and was abusive to me long after I was bigger than her.  It took me awhile to realize I could physically stop her.  It was very liberating when I realized that...

As far as the interaction between Marc and Claire- I also found some of it weird but everything I've seen and read does make it clear everyone rats out everyone and no one is really on your side.  I just thought it weird that Marc left one night and Claire left the next day.  It would've been easier, I think, if they had left together so that Claire wasn't under so much scrutiny.  I think maybe Marc didn't really know if Claire was going to leave, so he just left when he felt he could.  I am more amazed that they even chose to actually do this together since they didn't even really KNOW each other!

[spiderpig]

17 minutes ago, Diane Mars said:

My ex-boss and his wife (I explain some bits of "my story" mostly here : http://forums.previously.tv/topic/51718-bonus-episode-ask-me-anything/?do=findComment&comment=2858054) were quite wealthy people, owned an amazing property before entering CO$...  At the end, after WISE harrassment, disconnection, etc., he went to live for quite 2 years in a garage which was customised as a place to live.

They lost, according to what I know and what he told me, more than four millions due to this effing cult !

It's mind-boggling that they were astute enought to acquire that level of wealth and then the Cult was able to con them out of it.  But I guess they were lucky if they didn't get beaten up or sent to The Hole for two years.

[Brattinella]

The most telling comment Mark made last night, in regards to David attacking him, was that after he was dragged off, David said "Hey did you guys SEE that?  He was going to hit me BACK!".  Like that was the most ridiculous unheard-of thing to do.

[Loves2Dance]

I see the non-children policy a little differently. From a business standpoint, yes these children would provide them with a lifetime of free to cheap labor that they never needed to pay back and a population that would not only grow but continue to stay indoctrinated. 

However, in any business situation you have to look at liabilities and children are a liability. While the government will not step in with abuse towards adults because of 'church policies and practices,' they absolutely will and do when children are involved. I guarantee you that the Department of Children & Family Services and state laws & requirements were at the heart of this policy---if DCF showed up at their door not only can they not be turned away easily, there is a report that will last a lifetime. 

Scientology does not like bad PR. 

[spiderpig]

15 minutes ago, wings707 said:

Well, I love carrots so I have to decline.  It has to be all or nothing.

Carrots are the Devil's food.  They're even shaped like horns.

[toodles]

4 hours ago, LAFR said:

I thought the private investigators in the hotel lobby were actual Scientologists and not just hired out of the phone book. That's why they would 1) have no problem intimidating and 2) be sucky at their jobs. TMZ could sue for slander.

With regards to the forced abortions - I am amazed that the U.S. Congress doesn't go after them for this. There are hearings and reports that raise the issue of forced abortions in China and there are Members of Congress that frequently attack China on this one issue alone. I am amazed they aren't up in arms about ones happening in this country. Limiting access to birth control and then forcing those who get pregnant to have an abortion is disgusting and sick.

Forced abortions are about the most horrific thing I've ever heard of.  This is the United States and now that this practice has been exposed, maybe the spotlight will spurn authorities to take action against this.  I'm just outraged, but I'm going to stop before I say something I regret.

Edited December 28, 2016 by toodles

[Diane Mars]

23 minutes ago, Loves2Dance said:

... However, in any business situation you have to look at liabilities and children are a liability...

Yes, to that standpoint, kids could be considered as "PTS" (Potential Trouble Sources). And, as a sciento, you should... (I only have the french words who comes to my mind, which is : "manier") the situation... solve it, in order to be OK with your "ethics"

(so weird that all those things and lingo come back since this afternoon !)

Edited December 28, 2016 by Diane Mars

[Guest]

1 hour ago, BradandJanet said:

I never thought much about Cruise until his attack on Brooke Shields and the Oprah couch-jumping event. He got too strange and bratty for me to spend money to see him in a movie. 

Stop it. You're being glib.

[Rlb8031]

1 hour ago, rhys said:

I wish Marc had gone into more details about his job. I was hoping to hear something like: "70% of those audience members were paid actors." I dunno--I wanted more. Plus wouldn't an IUD or some other contraceptive be cheaper than paying for abortions?

My understanding is that Scientologists aren't big on medicine either, except in extreme cases. That's why the guy with the fever died in someone's house rather than being taken to the emergency room.

[jenrising]

3 hours ago, Neurochick said:

Yes,  I remember when that happened as I was in college then.  But I wonder if the government investigated Jones before Guyana; like what are you doing taking all these US citizens out of the country like that? 

Yes, pending investigations and pressure from some information that went public about Jones was part of why they went to Guyana. 

[PrincessSteel]

Tiny Dave's use of 'stuffed and mounted' in the second vid is both deeply unfortunate and totally hilarious.

[Rlb8031]

54 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

There seems to be a recurring theme with everyone she interviews, in that they all seem to have joined the church very young and were very quickly promoted to an important rank or position. It may speak to the fact that there are actually so few new members that anyone with any aptitude is quickly found a position to fulfill. 

On the other hand, I have to say this was the first time I started to doubt the veracity of some of the claims this show is making. They keep interviewing these guys who claim Miscavige beat them up and yet Marc is a big guy. I suppose he could have just been taken by surprise, but how could 5-foot-nothing David Miscavige throw a clearly much larger man up against a wall? Plus there was something just a little off about the interaction between Marc and Claire, like her needing to pipe up and point out that he didn't want to say anything to the cops because he was afraid for her safety. Or the way they were sort of chuckling over the fact that she had informed on him.

Not saying this whole thing is a lie and clearly these escape stories are some scary shit. Just saying, this particular interview had me raising my eyebrows a couple of times and made me start to wonder if some of these stories are somewhat embellished for effect.

One of the things that occurred to me during the Tom Devocte (sp?) interview was that Miscavige may have targeted some of these young kids. Tom was a close relative of the guy from the Steve Miller band. Bringing those relatives into SeaOrg and then promoting them quickly may have been a way to further ensnare celebrities. 

Marc's interview was interesting to me for the exact opposite reason. He was the first person to actually claim that when hit, he wanted to fight and not simply cower before Miscavige.  I believed him because for the first time, I heard someone give what I thought was an honest response of "I wanted to pound the crap out of him". I thought that Claire was trying to defend herself against the "she narced on me" claims. One didn't need to be Dr. Phil to figure out that was a sore subject between the two of them.

[iMonrey]

Quote

I wish Marc had gone into more details about his job. I was hoping to hear something like: "70% of those audience members were paid actors."

That's another thing I wonder about, because if church  members are going into debt just trying to pay for everything the church makes them pay for, how do they manage to buy travel accommodations to attend these big functions? Leah said they were "required" to attend them five times a year! What about members who are overseas?

[EVS]

56 minutes ago, GenL said:

I understand why these larger men are kowtowing to Miscavige.  Miscavige is the highest ranking person in their "religion".  So, they probably are 1. at first taken aback that he's attacking them (with the first attack- Leah was surprised to learn that Miscavige was physically abusive), 2. thinking that the  "leader" is attacking you it must be warranted and 3. afraid of the repercussions (being thrown in the hold, or whatever).  There's just something mentally hard to explain when you're being abused like that- somewhat different, but my mother was 4'11" and was abusive to me long after I was bigger than her.  It took me awhile to realize I could physically stop her.  It was very liberating when I realized that...

As far as the interaction between Marc and Claire- I also found some of it weird but everything I've seen and read does make it clear everyone rats out everyone and no one is really on your side.  I just thought it weird that Marc left one night and Claire left the next day.  It would've been easier, I think, if they had left together so that Claire wasn't under so much scrutiny.  I think maybe Marc didn't really know if Claire was going to leave, so he just left when he felt he could.  I am more amazed that they even chose to actually do this together since they didn't even really KNOW each other!

I wonder if Marc was afraid that, not only wouldn't Claire leave, but she might rat him out again and make it nearly impossible for him to leave.  Once he was out, up until the phone call from the bus station, I wonder if he still wasn't sure she really wanted to join him even though she said she did. As you said, they barely knew each other and Claire had already shown she was more loyal to the church than to him.  I'm glad for them that they were able to build a successful life together after their escape. My heart broke for Claire when she was talking about her forced abortions. 

Edited December 28, 2016 by EVS

[savannah1985]

One of the former scientologists named Tom Devogt (or something like that) said when he got beat up he knew he couldn't fight back because there was almost always someone else around and he feared people would come to Miscaviges' rescue and he (Tom) would get beat up even worse.  Everybody, all the men who got beat up, knew that if they fought back, they would be attacked and then definitely sent to the Hole.  I read that Shelley Miscavige always had a small first aid kit with her in case it was needed.  Be prepared!

[Wings]

9 minutes ago, EVS said:

I wonder if Marc was afraid that, not only wouldn't Claire leave, but she might rat him out again and make it nearly impossible for him to leave.  Once he was out, up until the phone call from the bus station, I wonder if he still wasn't sure she really wanted to join him even though she said she did. As you said, they barely knew each other and Claire had already shown she was more loyal to the church than to him.  I'm glad for them that they were able to build a successful life together after their escape. My heart broke for Claire when she was talking about her forced abortions. 

It appeared that they were both on the same page.  I would  love to hear more of their story; too many details were missing.  When he didn't return she seemed to know he defected and exactly where he went.  

[aurora296]

In a previous episode,  Little Davey Miscavige's father Ron talked about his last straw was when he looked at a Kindle that had internet access and read the truth about the Scientology's reputation and that is was all a scam. 

Made me wonder why any members who are not part of Sea Org who can come and go as they please can't easily find out for themselves that it's all bullcrap. They must know or hear all the negativity associated with the church since they are able to roam freely in public. 

[Brattinella]

4 minutes ago, aurora296 said:

In a previous episode,  Little Davey Miscavige's father Ron talked about his last straw was when he looked at a Kindle that had internet access and read the truth about the Scientology's reputation and that is was all a scam. 

Made me wonder why any members who are not part of Sea Org who can come and go as they please can't easily find out for themselves that it's all bullcrap. They must know or hear all the negativity associated with the church since they are able to roam freely in public. 

I think the only ones who can come and go as they please are the Top echelon, the 1% like Tom C and John T.  They are already fixed for life, and why would they worry about the little peons who don't know the truth. 

[EVS]

5 minutes ago, wings707 said:

It appeared that they were both on the same page.  I would  love to hear more of their story; too many details were missing.  When he didn't return she seemed to know he defected and exactly where he went.  

Maybe they were on the same page. I would have had doubts if I was Marc, though. I think he said he packed a bag for her but didn't tell her they were leaving, then when she didn't come home, he left alone. I would love to hear more of their story also.

[RedheadZombie]

14 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

I think the CO$ is more about money than minds. They'd rather keep their workers focused on their jobs.

I wish they had gone more into the background of all the bullshit statistics that were put into those videos. How did they come up with stuff like they lowered heroin addiction in Italy by 39% or they raised the grades of Detroit school kids from F to A+ in a few weeks? And how could people sit there and believe shit like that?

Those videos looked less sophisticated and even more cartoonish than the Jurassic Park video that explains the use of frog DNA.  I'm a little uncomfortable that those videos are what would reassure Leah's doubts.  I found myself thinking - the people who believe those videos are either incredibly sheltered, willfully ignorant, or incredibly arrogant to believe this bunk.  Failing to A plus in a few weeks.  Prisoners reading their shitty pamphlets with a miraculous, and almost statistically impossible, recidivism rate of 1%. 

Maybe the sound of Miscavige's voice puts them into an immediate trance, helped by subliminal messages in the ridiculous videos.  And why the Sea Org would ever believe this garbage when they're going without decent food, rest, or human rights.

[trow125]

14 minutes ago, EVS said:

Maybe they were on the same page. I would have had doubts if I was Marc, though. I think he said he packed a bag for her but didn't tell her they were leaving, then when she didn't come home, he left alone. I would love to hear more of their story also.

I strongly recommend reading Marc's memoir Blown for Good if you want more info about his experiences. I read it a couple of years ago, and it's one of the most gripping Scientology books out there (and I've read a lot of 'em).

Also, if anyone is wondering why more people don't just sue the "church": read up on the Laura De Crescenzo forced abortion lawsuit on Tony Ortega's blog. Filed in 2009 and still wending its way through the courts. Scientology may have fewer & fewer members, but they still have a LOT of money to spend on lawyers.

[RedheadZombie]

14 hours ago, bilgistic said:

Explain to me what the forced abortions are about. I can understand the church not wanting the immediate problems of increased healthcare (costs) and another mouth to feed (not that they're hurting for money), but wouldn't that additional person, in their minds, eventually be another person in their ranks? I mean, they get them so young anyway, why not literally at birth?

I think it became difficult to keep secret the profound neglect the Sea Org babies received in the "church's" mandatory day care.  Their solution was no babies.  Why free birth control (even mandatory) wasn't enacted in place of mandatory abortions, I don't get.  And the horrifying part is there seemed to be real, properly trained medical people involved in this practice.

12 hours ago, Court said:

I wanted to know more about the Headly's so I googled. This is horrific. Even more horrific that the courts said the church could do that. They were 15 when they joined, how could they say they were well informed?

The Church acknowledged that the rules under which the Headleys lived included a ban on having children, censored mail, monitored phone calls, needing permission to have Internet access and being disciplined through manual labor. The U.S. 9th Circuit Court of Appeals noted in a ruling given in July 2012 that Marc Headley had been made to clean human excrement by hand from an aeration pond on the compound with no protective equipment, while Claire Headley was banned from the dining hall for up to eight months in 2002. She lost 30 pounds (14 kg) as a result of subsisting on protein bars and water. In addition, she had two abortions to comply with the Sea Org's no-children policy. The Headleys also experienced physical violence from Scientology executives and saw others being treated violently.[4]

The court found that the church enjoyed the protection of the free exercise of religion clause in the First Amendment, and that the "ministerial exemptions" in employment law prevented the government from interfering in the treatment of its ministers. The judge ruled that the First Amendment disallowed the courts from "examining church operations rooted in religious scripture". Bringing the Church to account for how it disciplined its members was "precisely the type of entanglement that the religion clauses prohibit."

Great synopsis.  I just want to add that the ruling was upheld by the US Court of Appeals. 

Also, an unrelated investigation by the FBI regarding similar charges was dropped after the first court ruling, most likely influenced by the court ruling.

[Wings]

21 minutes ago, EVS said:

Maybe they were on the same page. I would have had doubts if I was Marc, though. I think he said he packed a bag for her but didn't tell her they were leaving, then when she didn't come home, he left alone. I would love to hear more of their story also.

I have to watch again, I totally missed that.  I watched this morning while reading/posting here.  I used to be able to do that!  It amazed my family.  I guess I can no longer claim this genius skill.  Lol.  Damn.

[Rlb8031]

2 hours ago, Neurochick said:

Maybe we're seeing the "lucky" ones.  The ones who are financially secure now.  I wonder about some of the ones who might have left with nothing and aren't doing so well now.

Mimi Faust Scientology Freeloader

This is an account by a woman who was told by her mother to join the Sea Org at 13 or she had to disconnect. It also answers a bit about the schooling questions.

[bichonblitz]

2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Plus there was something just a little off about the interaction between Marc and Claire, like her needing to pipe up and point out that he didn't want to say anything to the cops because he was afraid for her safety. Or the way they were sort of chuckling over the fact that she had informed on him.

I agree. That is one weird couple. How is it that they said one man escaped all the way to South Africa, he was found and brought back. How exactly are you brought back? And, yet these two were able to escape fairly easily and nobody "brought them back"?  This episode was the first time I have given the side eye to anybody's story. 

[bethster2000]

5 hours ago, Empress1 said:

I found it very powerful when Mark said that he told people who thought they could "save" Scientology, "It's not worth saving. Walk away."

That was such a powerful, emotional hour of television, I actually burst into tears when he said this.  Truth.  Truth.

[TV-Lurker]

Never realized what nutjobs Scientologists were.  When I was young and naive, I thought Scientology was actually something to do with Science.  

I am slightly put off by Remini's blouse when she does her confessionals in the big room.  It looks like Jerry Seinfeld's puffy shirt.

[Kostgard]

I think Marc and Claire can chuckle about the narcing she did because that's just what Scientologists do. And if she didn't narc, she would have been in trouble too, even if she wasn't involved in whatever Marc was doing wrong. Sort of in line with how Mike Rinder said a lot of the ex-Scientologists he did terrible things to don't hold him responsible - they know he was just being a good Scientologist. I believe Leah herself reported family members, and they reported her. I think Leah also filed a report on Miscavige once, which is awesome. That lady has some brass balls.

Marc is the first ex-Scientologist who I have no problem seeing making good money after he left. Thoough his productions were cheesy, he also had to basically make a silk purse from a sow's ear and he's probably got some great multimedia production skills that easily translate to a job on the outside, so he could land a good job with only a Scientology education.

I can see how Miscavige could beat people up - he may be tiny, but he looks strong (like Tom Cruise does. I think they are even workout buddies). And as they all say - he's like their Pope. Can you imagine being a Catholic and suddenly the Pope punches you in the face? You'd be in total shock. You'd think you couldn't fight back. It would literally be sacrilege. And if like Marc you were mad enough to fight back, Miscavige is always surrounded by people who will fight for him.

I really like the chemistry between Leah and Mike. They make a good little team. And I suspect Leah wants him to get the hell out of Clearwater, and that was what her "Mike, you should TOTALLY live in a place like this!" comments were about when they were in Denver.

I also liked her "This is all I wanted! To ride my bike and shit." [Beat] "Actually, I didn't have a bike" comments. 

[EVS]

30 minutes ago, wings707 said:

I have to watch again, I totally missed that.  I watched this morning while reading/posting here.  I used to be able to do that!  It amazed my family.  I guess I can no longer claim this genius skill.  Lol.  Damn.

I just rewatched. It's right before the 45 min mark. Marc says he called Claire at 4 am at work to see if she was coming home. He says that he couldn't tell her over the phone that he was planning to leave and had packed her a bag. Interestingly, she says she thinks she would have gone with him and he says he thinks she would have ratted him out. That is when they talk about her previously ratting him out.

trow125, I will definitely put Marc's book on my list. Thanks. 

Edited December 28, 2016 by EVS

[juliet73]

7 hours ago, Theredone said:

I think what fascinates me about cults is how deeply entrenched the brainwashing becomes so that even once you escape, so many of your actions are still dictated by what's been indoctrinated into you. 

Along those lines, I keep trying to understand why Claire had to escape on her own after Marc got out. What stops him from going to the police and saying, "they're holding my wife against her will, let's go get her"?

I can't imagine being in their position and what types of thoughts you're having. Does anyone know whether Marc addresses in his book why he didn't get the police involved to get Claire out?

I didn't read Marc's book, but here is my opinion on why he didn't go to the police about his wife.  Obviously, Marc knows what $cientology is capable of doing to members who "blow".  If they are stalking him and see that he is talking to the police, he would be putting his wife and remaining family still involved in the "church" in harm's way.  By the time the police go to investigate, they could have hurt his wife and his other family members.  

As I listen to these people's stories every week, it's like listening to victims of domestic abuse.  The control, the mind games, the punishments and obviously the abuse, etc.  The mothers who won't leave and continue to put up with the abuse and BS because their children are still in $cientology.  Then hearing the reasons why the victims don't go to the police. (Risking their children/family member's safety or disconnection.)  Also them describing how they plan for months, sometimes years, to escape.  And just like in husband/wife abuse, some victims escape to safety successfully and move on with their lives.  While others, unfortunately, are tracked down and dragged back to be tortured (or worse) all over again.  Sadly, just like with domestic abuse, I don't think the police are going to step in until it's too late.

Edited December 28, 2016 by juliet73

[zxy556575]

1 hour ago, bichonblitz said:

I agree. That is one weird couple. How is it that they said one man escaped all the way to South Africa, he was found and brought back. How exactly are you brought back? And, yet these two were able to escape fairly easily and nobody "brought them back"?  This episode was the first time I have given the side eye to anybody's story. 

From what I've read, many people who "blow" return willingly once they're found. After all the shrewd planning and luck, they cave when confronted and allow themselves to be browbeaten into going back. One man was at the airport waiting for his flight. Jeez dude, it's a very public place. Make a scene and refuse to leave!

As to why some Sea Org members are heavily tracked and others aren't, who knows. It may be related to how high up they are? Leah, her sister, and mother used to be Sea Org members but left and became public members. She never gave details of that in her book that I recall. If they officially routed out they would have had to pay their freeloader's debt.

It's all madness.

[RedheadZombie]

12 hours ago, Sylkken said:

I really felt for Claire in the episode tonight as she clearly felt she had no choice but to terminate her pregnancy and it affects her to this day. As I'm typing this, I thinking the only reasoning for this no children/forced abortion policy is that to a sadistic man, this is the ultimate display of control and a way to further dehumanize and break these people of any free will they might have left.

I don't think they mentioned it last night, but I'm pretty sure they made Claire have two abortions. 

7 hours ago, Theredone said:

I think what fascinates me about cults is how deeply entrenched the brainwashing becomes so that even once you escape, so many of your actions are still dictated by what's been indoctrinated into you. 

The language is so juvenile and cheesy, with all of the stupid names and abbreviations they use.  Yet you see these people still using those terms years later.  Claire didn't even realize she was using it, and Leah had to help her fill it in.  And then there's the ridiculous naval uniforms for people who are anything but sailors or military-like.  And the saluting of each other.  That shit's embarrassing!  And let's talk John Travolta prancing around in his formal pilot uniform while flying his personal plane.  If I were in the military, I would be outraged by some of this stuff.  CO$ is making a mockery of the real military.

6 hours ago, eskimo said:

The US government did go there to investigate the claims that people could not leave of their own free will.  Jim Jones put on a show of how great everything was there and that people could leave if they wanted to.  When some people decided to leave with the congressman, gunmen from the People's Temple met them at the airstrip and murdered a bunch of them, including Congressman Ryan.  At the very same time, he was mixing the Kool-aid back at the camp.  Jim Jones knew that when these people got back to the US the truth would get out and he was about to lose control.  So they did investigate, but it was far too late.  CO$ needs to be stopped before it gets to that point.  I could see DM talking many people into 'shedding their earthly bodies' before he loses his power.  He's that crazy and power hungry.   

I was thinking the same thing.  The government is terrified of another Ruby Ridge or Waco.    Never mind that Ruby Ridge involved gun-nut parents who taught their young children to kill, or the Branch Davidians killed their own children.  And these situations led to Oklahoma City, and a millionaire refusing to pay the rent on governmental lands, and a bunch of gun nuts in an armed stand off, relishing the thought of killing members of the federal government.  The government either backed down, or were forced to kill the nuts, live and on camera.  In an era where the NRA is cow-towed to, and flouts the law while emboldening their members and other nuts to fight the federal government, it becomes a cluster fuck. 

There's just so much precedence out there.  And look how the law went into the FLDS and busted up the town and seized children, only to have the tip they were following being a prank.  It now makes it even more difficult to crack down on this type of situation.  It's amazing how religious freedom turned into freedom to abuse, neglect, rape, molest, and even kill, without intervention by the government.

[RedheadZombie]

On a light note, because it's hard to find laughter in this mess, I almost died when Leah was mocking the CO$ propaganda videos.  I don't think she was even trying to be funny.  I re-wound it a few times as she imitated the horses galloping, and then put her hands on her waist and acted sort of John Wayne-like. 

Shallow note:  Leah looked gorgeous in her interview at the Headley home.

4 hours ago, BradandJanet said:

I never thought much about Cruise until his attack on Brooke Shields and the Oprah couch-jumping event. He got too strange and bratty for me to spend money to see him in a movie. 

Cruise seemed completely normal before this stuff.  He was barely into CO$ during his marriage to Nicole Kidman, and she was actually pulling him away.  If Cruise had been hardcore when he met Nicole, I don't think he would have married her.  She was raised Catholic, and her mother was a nurse, father a psychologist.  Miscavige figured out Tom Cruise was the answer to his problems, and he went full force into brainwashing Tom, and alienating him from Kidman.  After their divorce, Miscavige feared Penelope Cruz's influence, and this is when they went into high mode to audition wife #3.  Tom started to lose touch with reality and fired his long-time manager who had kept his crazy reined in.  His CO$ sister became his manager, his freak flag was flown as he attacked Brooke Shields, and started a relationship with happy to be converted Katie Holmes.  I almost think if Cruise hadn't been so attached to his first two children, the "church" would have alienated him from them to minimize the mess.  And maybe that's why they're not so fond of children.  Katie may still be a CO$-bot if not for her concern for her child.

2 hours ago, Rlb8031 said:

My understanding is that Scientologists aren't big on medicine either, except in extreme cases. That's why the guy with the fever died in someone's house rather than being taken to the emergency room.

They were more than happy to give that 25 y/o narcotic pain meds for his pneumonia.  It was the lack of antibiotics that killed him.  I can't wrap my head around it.  Why are narcotics, which can become an addiction, fine.  But antibiotics, you know the miracle medicine that saves lives, is frowned upon.  I wonder if they were just that stupid that they didn't realize he had pneumonia.  So they wanted to shut him up as he struggled to breathe and complained of chest pain and coughing.  It makes me wonder if they caused him to OD.  How they continue to get away with these suspicious deaths should be a documentary on its own.

[Wings]

After 13 years of marriage the Headleys were not as close one might think.  COS keeps spouses  distant, I see.  Dangerous to have strong teams of two floating around,  I suppose.  Hard to imagine not fully trusting your wife because she had ratted on you several times. Boggles, as everything does. 

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

Next Can Leah Remini: Scientology And The Aftermath Please Talk To A Private Investigator Hired By The Church?

And more questions sparked by 'Golden Era'!

[Negritude]

52 minutes ago, RedheadZombie said:

And then there's the ridiculous naval uniforms for people who are anything but sailors or military-like.  And the saluting of each other.  That shit's embarrassing!  And let's talk John Travolta prancing around in his formal pilot uniform while flying his personal plane.  If I were in the military, I would be outraged by some of this stuff.  CO$ is making a mockery of the real military.

 

Prior military here (Navy) and I just have to shake my head at those uniforms.  Reminds me of the infamous Bush "Mission Accomplished" flight suit lol. A friend of mine that I served with was stationed on the Lincoln when that happened and according to her, most of the sailors on that ship thought it was beyond laughable.

[MakingBacon]

As to the whole forced abortion thing, I think babies are just dangerous in general. They are pretty helpless, they need constant care by people who could be doing other things and babies make the people who gave birth to them somewhat loyal. I can see people trying to leave once they have a baby because they suddenly have clarity and don't want their baby subjected to what they have been through. It's one thing to come in with a 10 year old who may be able to fend for themselves in an organization or find their place but a baby is pretty much stuck wherever you leave them. I think a lot of adults that join cults were already damaged in some way that makes the more susceptible to being led. I can see them thinking this is a better life for their older children but, once you are in it and being mistreated by others, there has to be a fear of what may happen to your defenseless baby. I think it's like people who are being abused by a spouse and, once they have a child, they just don't want to risk the child becoming a target of the abuse. 

[Quilt Fairy]

I'm really surprised to find that the CO$ has such substantial locations in the US. IIRC, the whole reason the upper echelon is called the Sea Org is that L Ron Hubbard figured out that running his "church" from a boat in international waters would get around a lot of pesky laws. 

[againstthewind]

Guys, it may be the wine, and the fact that the CEO of my company got into my car today while I Want Your Sex was blasting via bluetooth, but I laughed my ass off at Leah's description of the Scino videos.

 

Please end 2016.

[Shorty186]

I'd really like more of an exploration into marriages in Scientology. What made Claire and Marc choose to trust each other (esp. with Claire's narcing) after 13 years of marriage (and Mary Kuhn and her husband) as opposed to Mike Rinder and his wife (married 20+ yrs with kids)? I wonder how much love really exists between two people who marry as teenagers just to have sex and then never really see each other or know the other person? 

Question: was Leah's husband a Scientologist? Nothing I've seen on other shows has led me to think he was, but I haven't read her book.

[luvmylabs]

5 hours ago, iMonrey said:

There seems to be a recurring theme with everyone she interviews, in that they all seem to have joined the church very young and were very quickly promoted to an important rank or position. It may speak to the fact that there are actually so few new members that anyone with any aptitude is quickly found a position to fulfill. 

On the other hand, I have to say this was the first time I started to doubt the veracity of some of the claims this show is making. They keep interviewing these guys who claim Miscavige beat them up and yet Marc is a big guy. I suppose he could have just been taken by surprise, but how could 5-foot-nothing David Miscavige throw a clearly much larger man up against a wall? Plus there was something just a little off about the interaction between Marc and Claire, like her needing to pipe up and point out that he didn't want to say anything to the cops because he was afraid for her safety. Or the way they were sort of chuckling over the fact that she had informed on him.

Not saying this whole thing is a lie and clearly these escape stories are some scary shit. Just saying, this particular interview had me raising my eyebrows a couple of times and made me start to wonder if some of these stories are somewhat embellished for effect.

My husband said the same thing Marc did.  He wouldn't say anything for fear of what might happen to me.  I was surprised because I kept thinking, Marc, tell them you need to go back and get your wife!!!!  But they've made Shelly M. disappear for a long time, so who knows what they are capable of.  And we are commenting as outsiders.  Every episode of this series has stunned me.  Anyone who leaves (esp. fro Sea Org) has to be gutsy and has my admiration.  Can't even begin to deal with forced abortion.  Nope.

[juliet73]

18 minutes ago, Shorty186 said:

 

Question: was Leah's husband a Scientologist? Nothing I've seen on other shows has led me to think he was, but I haven't read her book.

Yes, but he only joined because of Leah.  I believe he was still in the lower levels when they left.

[AUgirl]

6 hours ago, howiveaddict said:

I bet Leah is horrified to realize that if she hadn't been a star, she would have ended up stuck in the Sea Org like these other people.  

Leah and her sister were actually recruited to Sea Org and moved to Clearwater "Flag". I can't remember the details but they were allowed to leave because they were not good little robots. 

Her mom wasn't "fit" for Sea Org because she had used LSD. 

This is all in her book. 

[bethster2000]

2 hours ago, lordonia said:

they cave when confronted and allow themselves to be browbeaten into going back.

This is what happened to Lisa McPherson.  She was actually admitted into the psych ward at Morton Plant hospital, when a group of $cientology freaks showed up to "rescue" her.  Among this group was a high-ranking CO$ named Bernetta Slaughter, who was also McPherson's boss in Clearwater.

Against the advice of the doctor on the floor and the pleading of the nurses and staff, Lisa went with the group of $cientologists for "rest and relaxation" at the Fort Harrison Hotel.  It was, in fact, another "introspection rundown" where a clearly deranged Lisa went psychotic, refused food and water, soiled herself, and claimed she was the reincarnation of L. Ron Hubbard.  As is the procedure with the "introspection rundown," no one assigned to handle Lisa ever interacted with her, or spoke with her.  Several times, Lisa attempted to escape but could not get past the armed guard outside her door.

Seventeen days later, Lisa was dead.

[Showthyme]

5 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Not saying this whole thing is a lie and clearly these escape stories are some scary shit. Just saying, this particular interview had me raising my eyebrows a couple of times and made me start to wonder if some of these stories are somewhat embellished for effect.

I thought the same thing. Something just didn't ring true.

It is outrageous that a church can mandate an abortion just as it is equally outrageous that they can tell you not to get one. Where are the abortion advocates?

Sea Org doesn't want children because they would not get the same work and level of commitment from the parents. They already have control over the mothers and fathers so they don't need to have them produce a bunch of kids like FLDS. And, the kids already do slave labor in Scientology like they do in FLDS. Kids do not benefit Scientology.

It doesn't surprise me that Sea Org promotes teenagers to executive positions. A mature adult might turn it down. A teenager is flattered and has insecurities to overcome. They will work to prove that they are capable.

A 15 year-old cannot be held legally liable. I hope that they religious rights do not prevent them from legal protection as a minor.

What happens with people when they turn 65 and haven't paid anything in to the Social Security system? What does Scientology do with seniors?

[veronicamers]

Did anyone else think of Phillip and Elizabeth Jennings from "The Americans" when watching Marc and Claire? Two people who married largely to serve "the greater good" only to find themselves years in building a real relationship. It was fascinating. I'm amazed they stayed together and had three kids. 

Edited December 29, 2016 by veronicamers
Name typo