S01.E10: Last Christmas

[theatremouse]

29 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

I don't remember about the beep, but they were shocking him, weren't they?  That means his heart stopped and they are trying to restart.  Our cliffhanger is whether that is successful.  It looks pretty dire to me.  The success rate even in hospitals is pretty low, but this is TV of course. 

Hm. Now I think my memory is suspect but what I thought we saw was them shock him (and it didn't work), and then they stopped, suggesting they were no longer trying, but perhaps the pause there was shorter than I'm thinking it was, which would make it more ambiguous since it cut right after.

[ShadowFacts]

I went and rewatched, and the operating room personnel say "clear", shock him, and we see his face and hear beep beep beep beep.  Which could actually be not the heart rate sound, but an alarm that there is no heartbeat?  Unclear to me, and I guess intentionally so.

[OtterMommy]

6 hours ago, SlackerInc said:

I wonder what the production schedule is. It feels like they did an abrupt about-face on Olivia in reaction to the sharp negative reaction from viewers like we saw here. I liked her, so I'm disappointed. And it just doesn't feel like this was where they previously were steering her story.

Nagging Randall into giving up the boat is a perfect illustration of why I don't like Beth. The guy makes a shit-ton of dough--let him buy a damn boat if he wants to! Jesus.

I think the production schedule is a good 4-6 weeks out, so I doubt that viewer reaction had anything to do with Olivia.  

[Fig Newton]

On ‎12‎/‎7‎/‎2016 at 3:57 PM, Laurie4H said:

I don't care if William or anyone is gay but I feel like they do this for political reasons.  I'm sure there will be a transgender plot also.

I was indifferent on Toby but I hope he lives.  I still find it hard to believe he would be so into someone that drastically overweight considering he had a "hot" wife.  I think if Kate struggled with 50 or so lbs it would be more realistic....but then they probably couldn't use the gastro bypass story line then.

May I ask why it would be hard to believe that an overweight person who had a "hot" spouse could not fall for another who is overweight? Fat does not equal ugly. As a matter of fact, skinny does not equal attractive. I for one find myself quite interested in the storyline with Kate and Toby because I feel they really do love one another and the appearance of the body is not what is important to either of them. Kate has shown incredible vulnerability and has expressed to Toby (and others) that her weight hinders her in many a way. Her storyline is really more about her character and how SHE identifies with being overweight and the many ways this keeps her at a status quo in her life.  I 100% can identify with Kate and her inner most feelings of self disgust and fear. All my life I was "the fat one". I met a wonderful man when I was fat. He loved me, for me. Not for my skin and bones. He never gave a shit if I wore a size 4 or size 18.  Fast forward many years following a break  up (which was a result of my constant insecurities of being unattractive because I was fat), and I suddenly was the skinny version of me. We got back together but he was always so paranoid another man would snag me up. I assured him that I am still me, past weight issues and all. Because, no matter how much you lose, if you are a fat person, you are always a fat person on the inside. I applaud the writers for investing in a story of weight and the inner demons we hide in relation to same. Obesity does tend to limit your advancement in life;  sad but cold, hard truth. And guess what, when one loses the weight, the new fear and insecurity becomes REGAINING the pounds. So. Suffice it to say. Fat is real. Fat is a big controller in the one who is obese. So yeah. She enjoys the attention and adoration Toby provides. And yeah, she would take him back if she loved him. Chunky people are human to and just as deserving of love and companionship.

P.S I just love this show. Top to bottom. I love the characters so much. They feel very real to me.      

[ClareWalks]

11 minutes ago, Fig Newton said:

May I ask why it would be hard to believe that an overweight person who had a "hot" spouse could not fall for another who is overweight?

Yeah, I agree. It's like saying "how could you be attracted to a black guy? You dated a white guy before."

[Dowel Jones]

4 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

That means his heart stopped and they are trying to restart.

Technically, it didn't stop, as one of the doctors is heard to say "He's in v-fib", meaning the heart was beating very irregularly and inefficiently, but not quite completely stopped.  That's when shocking the heart is most effective, as it actually does stop the heart for a moment until the brain can get the electrical impulses going again, so there might indeed be a long beep, followed by the normal rhythm (next season).

[ShadowFacts]

1 hour ago, Dowel Jones said:

Technically, it didn't stop, as one of the doctors is heard to say "He's in v-fib", meaning the heart was beating very irregularly and inefficiently, but not quite completely stopped.  That's when shocking the heart is most effective, as it actually does stop the heart for a moment until the brain can get the electrical impulses going again, so there might indeed be a long beep, followed by the normal rhythm (next season).

Ah, there's more hope for Toby than I thought.  What about the beep beep beep beep continuing (it wasn't a long beep that I heard)?  Would that be his heart rate, or an alarm?  I kind of hope he's alive, even though he's been more hindrance than help up to this point.  He may have turned a corner with his declarations on Christmas Eve.  And of course everything gets more real with a near-death experience. 

[OtterMommy]

51 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

Ah, there's more hope for Toby than I thought.  What about the beep beep beep beep continuing (it wasn't a long beep that I heard)?  Would that be his heart rate, or an alarm?  I kind of hope he's alive, even though he's been more hindrance than help up to this point.  He may have turned a corner with his declarations on Christmas Eve.  And of course everything gets more real with a near-death experience. 

I think, by the laws of television, he's still alive.  After all, we didn't actually see a dead body (plus, with this show, characters don't actually have to be alive to appear....).

I'm one of those people who started on a Toby high and then crashed.  However, I don't think he's a doomed--as in I can never, ever like him--character.  Who knows, this experience could change him in a way that makes him a more positive force for Kate.

[mojito]

Quote

Can someone with a better memory than mine (or who saved it on DVR and is rewatching) clarify for me if Sloane herself ever use the phrase "Hanukkah dinner" or is that just what people have been calling it here (perhaps for lack of better phrase)?

While having that argument in front of the theater with Kevin, Sloane said, "Thanks to you, I have to go to Hanukkah dinner at my parents'..." (and tell them that the play wasn't happening). 

[theatremouse]

OK yeah, then I revert firmly into camp not-a-thing.

[Cardie]

8 hours ago, Crs97 said:

I specifically listened for the long beep because I know how much shows love to use them, but it never changed from the short ones.

I definitely heard it change to the continuous beeeeeep.

[ClareWalks]

I just rewatched the ending. Not a continuous beep, it's definitely a steady beepbeepbeep at about 120 bpm. The beeping is all during and after the shock, so I don't think it's the defibrillator at all, but some other machine. I don't think we can ascertain anything by analyzing that audio.

[Tiger]

14 hours ago, SlackerInc said:

I wonder what the production schedule is. It feels like they did an abrupt about-face on Olivia in reaction to the sharp negative reaction from viewers like we saw here. I liked her, so I'm disappointed. And it just doesn't feel like this was where they previously were steering her story.

Nagging Randall into giving up the boat is a perfect illustration of why I don't like Beth. The guy makes a shit-ton of dough--let him buy a damn boat if he wants to! Jesus.

It's reportedly taking 10-12 to produce each episode.  Production is separate from the actual writing.  I believe they have at least two unaired episodes in the can and will complete a third before taking some time for the holidays.

13 hours ago, Johnny Dollar said:

Andy was suicidal because he just watched the Westworld finale. 

Since this show loves the drama, I can see Andy's rogue trading putting Randall's job in jeopardy. What if he has to move back home with Rebecca and Miguel?  

While saying "nothing bad ever happens on Christmas Eve" is a nice sentiment, if I was Randall, having a guy die in your living room on Christmas morning is not exactly a holiday tradition I'd want to start with my daughters. 

Isn't Beth a Corporate Lawyer?

[J.D.]

12 hours ago, JenE4 said:

Exactly. When we last saw Toby, he was definitely alive because he was still beep-beep-beeping. Even if it ended with a beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep, he would still have a chance to be brought back from the brink of death.

If so, I would anticipate the next episode would begin with a beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep, then the doctor and nurses would rush in yelling Code BLue and defribrilatng the hell out of him. Eventually the nurse would say, "Doctor, he's gone. Call it." And we'd pan up to a 107-year-old Dr. Folksy still practicing medicine who would say, "Bernice, I'm not letting this man die on Christmas Eve. A wise family once taught me that nothing bad happens on Christmas Eve!" Then he'd try it one more time, and Toby will live! Or, if the Toby fan hate was too much and he's going by the wayside as the bitchy actress, then beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep. Dr. Folksy goes out to tell the family, he and Rebecca see each other, and start chatting up a storm (because in 80 years practicing, the Pearson are his favorite patients ever), forgetting all about Toby. Where's Toby? Oh, he's dead. But Doc will pull Kate aside, give Kate the exact same pep talk he gave Jack, replacing "child" with "boyfriend." Then Doc will direct Kate toward her new man by saying, "See that man over there drinking a Slimfast shake? He just lost his wife tonight." Slimfast will raise his shake to Kate, and they'll exchange coy smiles. Then Slimfast will say, "Wait. What?! Cheryl is dead?! You said not to worry because nothing bad ever happens on Christmas Eve!" Then Doc will say, "Whoops. Sorry, Bob. I guess I forgot to tell you because the Pearsons are here!" Then Kevin, wandering around by the decorations per usual, will spot the snow globe that Randall gave Doc. Randall will give one of his patented wide-mouthed looks of awe and joy. Doc will give a little wink, and all the Pearsons will laugh and laugh and break out into Christmas song. With poor Bob in the background sobbing about Cheryl.

This ^^^^ totally cracked me up.  HILARIOUS!!!!  ;P

[jeansheridan]

I have come to the conclusion that I only like this show on a scene by scene basis. The show as a whole is way too much. Love Brown and Hartley but this may be it for me. Show got renewed so two seasons of this would drive me nuts.

[SlackerInc]

16 hours ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

I got the impression it wasn't just the boat.  She commented on how he spends a lot of money when depressed.  I implied from that comment the boat was just the latest purchase and was a sign it was getting out of control. 

And buying a boat without talking to a spouse about it is pretty disrespectful

I think that entirely depends on how much money you have.  In my household, we literally can't buy a holiday greeting card for a relative without talking it over and figuring out where to get the money (I'm not exaggerating).  But it looks to me like Randall could buy five boats and it wouldn't impact their lifestyle any.  There would be no trouble making the mortgage payment, covering any of the utility bills, getting whatever they like from the supermarket, etc.  Therefore, it impacts them financially about as much as it would impact my family if I throw a quarter into the Salvation Army kettle (something I can do without it rising to the threshold of "need to talk it over with my wife first").

12 hours ago, OtterMommy said:

I think the production schedule is a good 4-6 weeks out, so I doubt that viewer reaction had anything to do with Olivia.  

If this is true (although according to Tiger, it's much longer) it would fit my hypothesis perfectly.  The episode when hordes of people seemed to really start hating Olivia was when she had sex with Kevin in the coat room at the wake.  That was five weeks before this episode.

6 hours ago, theatremouse said:

OK yeah, then I revert firmly into camp not-a-thing.

It's probably because everyone in Hollywood is a WASP and has no idea how Jewish traditions really work.  (I kid!)

[breezy424]

Toby didn't flatline.  He could be still alive even though they gave him the paddles.  I know it's terrible but I'd like to see him out of the picture. 

Whether or not Randall could afford a boat or five boats depends upon the 'boat'.  Just as mortgages, mileage varies.  And you just don't make those decisions without discussing it with your partner.  At least, not in a good marriage, JMHO. 

Jewish traditions vary wildly.  It kind of amazes and puzzles me at the same time.  It's like it's ok to eat at any restaurant or someone's home but you keep a kosher home.  Or you eat kosher at home but it's ok not to when you're not.  I don't entirely get it but whatever floats your boat.  But heck, there's a lot of Christians who go to church on Sunday and then cut you off in parking lot after services. 

[Tdoc72]

On 12/8/2016 at 10:18 PM, AmandaPanda said:

I wouldn't say it's not common for families to get together on Christmas Eve. Growing up, my family's Christmas celebration was always on Christmas Eve. This was mainly to accommodate for in-laws and all the family schedule juggling, but I was always more excited for Christmas Eve. 

I never count down the days until Christmas; I always count to Christmas Eve. That's when the fun things start in our house:  dinner consists of just appetizers, kids open one present that's always pajamas (even though every year I say it's not), & cookies & milk for Santa. We even refer to the day before Christmas Eve as Christmas Eve Eve!  14 days to go!

[SlackerInc]

Christmas Eve for me growing up was just "Christmas is almost here!"  Unless we were at my aunt and uncle's house, in which case my aunt made oyster stew.  But no presents at all until Christmas morning.

For my wife's family growing up, OTOH, Christmas Eve was when they opened all their presents (I know, it doesn't make sense to me either!) and that was the "big day" when extended family got together.  So we have kind of compromised (meaning I manage to guard a few presents and keep them under the tree until the morning, LOL).

[kili]

Quote

Whether or not Randall could afford a boat or five boats depends upon the 'boat'.  Just as mortgages, mileage varies.  And you just don't make those decisions without discussing it with your partner.  At least, not in a good marriage, JMHO.

 Boats can also be an enormous time sink. They need care and you spend time using it. What if your spouse doesn't want to go boating on the weekend? Sure, you can go by yourself, but who is taking the kids to the weekend soccer game then? 

It's like a dog. You might be able to afford one, but you should probably discuss it with your spouse before you suddenly buy one on a whim and take it home. They involve on-going costs, time and impact lifestyle.

But Randall wasn't thinking about all that. He's depressed and buys things when depressed. Things he probably doesn't want or need. Beth watches out for him and points it out when he's going a bit off the deep end. If he'd been wanting a boat for a long time and talking about it, it probably wouldn't be a big deal. But making a major purchase on a whim at a Christmas party is probably not a great idea.

[romantic idiot]

23 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

I'm not sure, I thought he was a regular all along.  Either way, lots of series kill off regulars.  Some of them revel in it.  Whether it's someone viewers care about, or love to hate, it's the biggest of dramatic punches.  And it definitely can be overdone.

Apparently it increases the "stakes". Personally I think it's cheap and lazy. 

Re: William and the Middle Turkey cottoning on, I thought it was because of how Jesse was caressing William's back as William was playing the piano. 

They could have done it in Beth's home office, in which case there would be no beds to defile.

RE: the sudden bi-ness of William, i think Jesse had to be a man, because they are still portraying William as a nice man, and can you imagine the backlash if William had run away from his 60 (or whatever year old) girlfriend?

[DrSpaceman73]

6 hours ago, SlackerInc said:

I think that entirely depends on how much money you have.  In my household, we literally can't buy a holiday greeting card for a relative without talking it over and figuring out where to get the money (I'm not exaggerating).  But it looks to me like Randall could buy five boats and it wouldn't impact their lifestyle any.  There would be no trouble making the mortgage payment, covering any of the utility bills, getting whatever they like from the supermarket, etc.  Therefore, it impacts them financially about as much as it would impact my family if I throw a quarter into the Salvation Army kettle (something I can do without it rising to the threshold of "need to talk it over with my wife first").

If this is true (although according to Tiger, it's much longer) it would fit my hypothesis perfectly.  The episode when hordes of people seemed to really start hating Olivia was when she had sex with Kevin in the coat room at the wake.  That was five weeks before this episode.

It's probably because everyone in Hollywood is a WASP and has no idea how Jewish traditions really work.  (I kid!)

I still disagree about the boat. 

Its not just about how much it impacts them financially.  Purchases over a certain amount, plus one that require maintenance and upkeep like a boat, should be discussed with a spouse. 

Plus we don't know how much the boat cost.  Boats can range in price from $5000 to $100K or more. 

[J.D.]

I don't have a problem with the boat.  When Randall mentioned it to Beth she didn't respond as if the boat idea came from out of left field.  I took her reaction as disappointment, but like she'd heard it all before.

Anyway, as someone who is super motion-sensitive, you would never see me getting on a boat.  Again.  Still, if 20 years from now my BF wanted to buy a boat, sobeit.  I would view his interest and newly found hobby to be a healthier alternative than saying, having a mid-life crisis affair... which I'm assuming would be Randall's 'Plan B.'

[PRgal]

1 hour ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

I still disagree about the boat. 

Its not just about how much it impacts them financially.  Purchases over a certain amount, plus one that require maintenance and upkeep like a boat, should be discussed with a spouse. 

Plus we don't know how much the boat cost.  Boats can range in price from $5000 to $100K or more. 

Plus docking space! 

[Crs97]

I wouldn't be thrilled if hubby bought a boat without our talking, and I would be very concerned if I knew it was a sign of depression, but I wouldn't be yelling at him to undo the transaction in the middle of the party.

[possibilities]

If Randall spends a lot when he's depressed, I would think Beth's concern was partly about the boat itself but also about Randall's mental health. I have a friend whose husband is bipolar and when he does stuff that typically predicts an episode, she's all over it.

I agree that the back-touching was what tipped off the kid, plus she said it reminded her of a kid at school who has two dads-- she's seen it before, she knows what it is, and she doesn't have trouble seeing it because it's normal in her world.

[Pallas]

3 hours ago, kili said:

Boats can also be an enormous time sink. They need care and you spend time using it. What if your spouse doesn't want to go boating on the weekend?

A boat is a big commitment and investment. Time-sink and money-sink -- a substantial boat moored in NYC metro needs a mooring, off-season boat yard, probably annual club membership (if only for the means and rights of access to the boat in the water), along with the extensive and vital off-season prep and in-season maintenance -- to the point that some owners begin to fantasize about sink-sink. And if one spouse is the only family member who gives a shit about sailing or boating? During the weekends and the summer, when the kids are home from school and the other spouse needs to be present or at least, on call, on dry land?  

The problems of owning a boat are a given; the pleasures are highly conditional, and personal. I have a horse. Another, not-an-impulse-buy.   

[Clanstarling]

7 minutes ago, possibilities said:

If Randall spends a lot when he's depressed, I would think Beth's concern was partly about the boat itself but also about Randall's mental health. I have a friend whose husband is bipolar and when he does stuff that typically predicts an episode, she's all over it.

That was my take on it. It wasn't the boat, per se, it could have been any major purchase. Randall's prone to retail therapy (it seems) and the buying the boat was a symptom of a problem, not a "you didn't consult me on this major expense." She's highly tuned in to his emotional state, as one tends to do with family members who can be erratic.

[OtterMommy]

9 hours ago, Tdoc72 said:

I never count down the days until Christmas; I always count to Christmas Eve. That's when the fun things start in our house:  dinner consists of just appetizers, kids open one present that's always pajamas (even though every year I say it's not), & cookies & milk for Santa. We even refer to the day before Christmas Eve as Christmas Eve Eve!  14 days to go!

This was actually a big conflict in my family growing up.  My mother believed that the big celebration (opening gifts) was Christmas Eve and then we would just do stocking stuffers and a dinner on Christmas Day.  My father believed that Christmas Eve was going to church and then everything would happen on Christmas Day.  For along time, I was stuck in the middle.  However, once I became old enough that I actually had some say in the matter (18, by the way...) I opted for my Dad's argument.  For years, my mother would try and trick us into opening our gifts on Christmas Eve--one time, she kept us up until 3 in the morning.

However, what really "won" the argument, at least while I was still celebrating the holiday with my parents, was that my siblings and nieces started having to work until late afternoon or early evening on Christmas Eve, which made any sort of large-scale celebration impossible.

[Tiger]

2 hours ago, J.D. said:

I don't have a problem with the boat.  When Randall mentioned it to Beth she didn't respond as if the boat idea came from out of left field.  I took her reaction as disappointment, but like she'd heard it all before.

Anyway, as someone who is super motion-sensitive, you would never see me getting on a boat.  Again.  Still, if 20 years from now my BF wanted to buy a boat, sobeit.  I would view his interest and newly found hobby to be a healthier alternative than saying, having a mid-life crisis affair... which I'm assuming would be Randall's 'Plan B.'

For me, the way Watson played the scene was as if Beth was pretty pissed.  And didnt Beth explicity say "I dont know about your marriage, but in my marriage we dont keep secrets". 

Randal and Beth obviously both have great jobs given their house/neighborhood, cars, and their girls going to an extremely posh private school.

But a boat, especially a boat owned by an Andy type, is sure to be a huge expensiven in and of itself, then you have docking, maintenance, etc . . . whether your household income is 25k or 25m, it's not a purchase you make without consultation with your spouse/SO.  

[OtterMommy]

1 hour ago, PRgal said:

  3 HOURS AGO, DRSPACEMAN73 SAID:

I still disagree about the boat. 

Its not just about how much it impacts them financially.  Purchases over a certain amount, plus one that require maintenance and upkeep like a boat, should be discussed with a spouse. 

Plus we don't know how much the boat cost.  Boats can range in price from $5000 to $100K or more. 

Quote

Plus docking space! 

And insurance on the boat can be quite hefty!

[Enigma X]

Late last night I was able to view this episode. I still have not been able to get through all the comments. I really loved seeing Dennis O'Hare and think Jesse and William make a very handsome couple. Mandy Moore and Chrissy Metz were very believable as mother and daughter. I like Sloane a lot. Lastly, I am not a cold-hearted person but I am all for whatever it takes to get Toby off my screen.

[OtterMommy]

10 hours ago, SlackerInc said:

If this is true (although according to Tiger, it's much longer) it would fit my hypothesis perfectly.  The episode when hordes of people seemed to really start hating Olivia was when she had sex with Kevin in the coat room at the wake.  That was five weeks before this episode.

I still don't think there was any fanservice there.  I've watched shows where the plot was very clearly changed at the last minute to accommodate, among other things, the squawkings of a group of people on Twitter...and it is pretty obvious that it wasn't thought through at all.  I don't get that feeling from the Olivia story line.

ETA: I also don't think this sort of thing happens in the first season to a highly rated show.  When I've seen it, it doesn't happen until the 3rd or later season and to a show that is starting to struggle in the ratings.

Edited December 10, 2016 by OtterMommy

[Enigma X]

22 hours ago, Fig Newton said:

Fat does not equal ugly. As a matter of fact, skinny does not equal attractive.

Needs repeating!

[Guest]

42 minutes ago, OtterMommy said:

And insurance on the boat can be quite hefty!

I live in a part of the world where boat ownership is common and NBD.  I had my first one in college.  Insurance was both cheap and optional.  Beth and Randall live in a house in NJ with a back yard (I think we've seen exterior shots?) where a trailerable boat could live for free, if they don't have a spare garage bay already.  So it doesn't have to be a super expensive hobby.  

But given the portrayal of Randall's workplace, I'm guessing it wasn't a super cheap boat.  Though why the suicidal guy bothered selling it I have no idea.  I think it'd be easier for his family to liquidate it in an estate sale than find out (from Randall?) that he for some reason verbally sold it to Randall right before jumping.  "I'm sorry about your loss.  But, hey, I agreed to buy his boat an hour before he jumped.  Here's a check.  When can I come get it?"  

[ShadowFacts]

28 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I live in a part of the world where boat ownership is common and NBD.  I had my first one in college.  Insurance was both cheap and optional.  Beth and Randall live in a house in NJ with a back yard (I think we've seen exterior shots?) where a trailerable boat could live for free, if they don't have a spare garage bay already.  So it doesn't have to be a super expensive hobby.  

But given the portrayal of Randall's workplace, I'm guessing it wasn't a super cheap boat.  Though why the suicidal guy bothered selling it I have no idea.  I think it'd be easier for his family to liquidate it in an estate sale than find out (from Randall?) that he for some reason verbally sold it to Randall right before jumping.  "I'm sorry about your loss.  But, hey, I agreed to buy his boat an hour before he jumped.  Here's a check.  When can I come get it?"  

I'm thinking that if the suicidal guy was being calculating about everything he was doing, to make things easier for his family, and because an estate sale will have fees, etc., that he wanted that already taken care of.   In our part of the country, boats, especially bigger ones, can be hard to sell.  And storage in Randall's backyard probably wouldn't be possible because in a neighborhood like his, there would be restrictive covenants preventing RVs, boats, etc. from being parked in the yard.  It looked like he was in a gated community, or at least one with private security, and those places usually have association rules about minutiae that you wouldn't believe. 

[Dowel Jones]

As long as we're on the subject of the boat, we should have a renaming contest.  I nominate "The Anvil".

[J.D.]

6 minutes ago, Dowel Jones said:

As long as we're on the subject of the boat, we should have a renaming contest.  I nominate "The Anvil".

I nominate "Christmas Eve," so that nothing bad ever happens on it.  ;P

[mansonlamps]

On 12/9/2016 at 1:07 PM, Fig Newton said:

 Because, no matter how much you lose, if you are a fat person, you are always a fat person on the inside. I applaud the writers for investing in a story of weight and the inner demons we hide in relation to same. Obesity does tend to limit your advancement in life;  sad but cold, hard truth. And guess what, when one loses the weight, the new fear and insecurity becomes REGAINING the pounds. So. Suffice it to say. Fat is real. Fat is a big controller in the one who is obese.

Can I just say I think this is a gross generalization?  I lost 68 pounds a few years ago, threw out my "fat" clothes and never looked back.  I do not feel like a fat person on the inside in the least, I feel great (and supremely more confident than I used to).  And I don't live in fear of regaining the pounds even though I know it's certainly a possibility.

I really find it strange when people speak for any group of people like they are all the same, whether it's Jews, obese people, gays or whoever.  Everybody's life experience is completely different.

I am really enjoying the show and it's honestly the only network program I know of that has any buzz around it, it's really striking a chord with a lot of people.  

[jhlipton]

On 12/9/2016 at 6:47 AM, SlackerInc said:

Nagging Randall into giving up the boat is a perfect illustration of why I don't like Beth. The guy makes a shit-ton of dough--let him buy a damn boat if he wants to! Jesus.

"nagging Randall" is my next band name, but I'm on the side of those who think the purchase was a big deal.

15 hours ago, breezy424 said:

Jewish traditions vary wildly.  It kind of amazes and puzzles me at the same time.

There aren't as many "flavors" of Judaism as there are of Christianity (think of the differences between Southern Baptist and Methodists or Episcapalians, for example).  The three main branches of Judaism can be explained by a joke:

A Jewish mother had been hounded by her kids who wanted a Christmas tree, just like all their friends had.  Finally, she got so desperate that she called the Orthodox rabbi.  "Rev Joshua, I want to have a Christmas tree -- is there a brucha ("prayer") that would make it OK?"
"Of course not!  And you should be ashamed of even thinking like that!"
But her kids kept bugging her, so she called the Conservative rabbi. "Rev Issak, I want to have a Christmas tree -- is there a brucha  that would make it OK?"
"I understand your plight, but i advise you to emphasize the differences that make Judaism unique."
But her kids kept bugging her, so she called the Reform rabbi. "Rev Moishe, I want to have a Christmas tree -- is there a brucha that would make it OK?"
"Of course, have fun, knock yourself out, and by the way, what's a brucha?"

There are also Orthodox Hassids and Reform Hassids.

[Clawdette]

The nothing bad happens on Christmas Eve is one of those sayings that is good intentioned but we all know is not really true. One Christmas Eve my husband was found to have a huge tumor that turned out to be Stage IV renal cell carcinoma.  Our children were grown so we didn't go down the "nothing bad" route and while we miss my husband on Christmas Eve, it hasn't ruined the holiday for us. 

[OtterMommy]

21 minutes ago, Clawdette said:

The nothing bad happens on Christmas Eve is one of those sayings that is good intentioned but we all know is not really true. One Christmas Eve my husband was found to have a huge tumor that turned out to be Stage IV renal cell carcinoma.  Our children were grown so we didn't go down the "nothing bad" route and while we miss my husband on Christmas Eve, it hasn't ruined the holiday for us. 

I'm so sorry for your loss....

[Happytobehere]

On 12/8/2016 at 1:10 PM, kili said:

These things make me suspicious:

1) Beth doesn't seem to see Andy even though he should be directly in her line of site. But, maybe Beth is very short-sited or only has eyes for Randall.

2) In the time that Randall turns around to tell her not to come onto the balcony, Andy gathers up his watch and ring, takes his drink off of the letter to Chloe, pockets them all and is in the middle of the party crowd. He must have been moving pretty briskly.  He goes from wanting to commit suicide, to gathering up his stuff and going home in a remarkably short period of time. But, maybe he is just very decisive.

3) Both Beth and Randall enter the balcony from the same spot, but Andy does not pass them to get back into the party. But maybe there are multiple exits from the balcony (though Andy is moving right to left in the party and he should be moving left to right if he came in through a door on the opposite side that Beth was on - perhaps the stage direction was wrong).

4) Randall is a little manic. Some people have become suspicious that it may indicate a mental problem. He does mention that he is depressed and buying expensive items. 

The very things you listed is what made me wonder if what we saw was real as well.  I think seeing the glass on the ledge and the man who appeared to be Andy sort of running/moving around inside the party is what made me second-guess my first impression that what we were seeing was not actually happening.

However, since even that scene was only viewed through Randall's eyes, it could still have been imagined.  It's possible that Randall's mind was trying to rationalize the very disconnected things that made viewers question the scene.

I for one hope this is not the case because quite frankly, randall already has enough on his plate, his identity issues surrounding his race and adoption, locating his birth father only for him to be dying and the reveal about Rebecca and her connection to WIlliam.  Piling on anything else at this point would be overkill for one character.

Edited December 11, 2016 by Happytobehere

[Laurie4H]

On 12/9/2016 at 1:07 PM, Fig Newton said:

May I ask why it would be hard to believe that an overweight person who had a "hot" spouse could not fall for another who is overweight? Fat does not equal ugly. As a matter of fact, skinny does not equal attractive. I for one find myself quite interested in the storyline with Kate and Toby because I feel they really do love one another and the appearance of the body is not what is important to either of them. Kate has shown incredible vulnerability and has expressed to Toby (and others) that her weight hinders her in many a way. Her storyline is really more about her character and how SHE identifies with being overweight and the many ways this keeps her at a status quo in her life.  I 100% can identify with Kate and her inner most feelings of self disgust and fear. All my life I was "the fat one". I met a wonderful man when I was fat. He loved me, for me. Not for my skin and bones. He never gave a shit if I wore a size 4 or size 18.  Fast forward many years following a break  up (which was a result of my constant insecurities of being unattractive because I was fat), and I suddenly was the skinny version of me. We got back together but he was always so paranoid another man would snag me up. I assured him that I am still me, past weight issues and all. Because, no matter how much you lose, if you are a fat person, you are always a fat person on the inside. I applaud the writers for investing in a story of weight and the inner demons we hide in relation to same. Obesity does tend to limit your advancement in life;  sad but cold, hard truth. And guess what, when one loses the weight, the new fear and insecurity becomes REGAINING the pounds. So. Suffice it to say. Fat is real. Fat is a big controller in the one who is obese. So yeah. She enjoys the attention and adoration Toby provides. And yeah, she would take him back if she loved him. Chunky people are human to and just as deserving of love and companionship.

P.S I just love this show. Top to bottom. I love the characters so much. They feel very real to me.      

I didn't say it was unrealistic that a guy would fall for a overweight person who had a hot wife.  Why do my words get twisted.  I said it was unrealistic for someone that DRASTICALLY overweight and that it would be more realistic if maybe she was 50 lbs overweight and a size 16 or so.  I didn't say overweight equals ugly. 

[theatremouse]

In this circumstance, I don't really think the degree of overweightness should be a factor. Either the weight matters toward the attraction or it doesn't. We were presented with Toby attracted to Kate. So for him presumably it wasn't a factor. The size of his previous mate need not be indicative of an overall size-preference. Your "realism" premise as written is still dependent on the weight of both mates being correlated to Toby's attraction to them, which is counter to what was presented in the show. I don't have data on the proportion of the population who dates/marries people of drastically different body types (not necessarily different than themselves but having multiple relationships drastically different than each other), but given the current population, and 6% of the population has BMI>40 (says the CDC), even if it were only likely 1% of the time to have a couple in which one half historically dated both a super skinny person and a very overweight person, that's still tens if not hundreds of thousands of people who might live that scenario in real life (depending on what age groups you include). That for me is a big enough number that, sure, it's realistic enough to be presented as what went down in this story, with these characters. If this were a story about two people with different equally rare genetic disorders such that there are only maybe a few hundred who have that in the world who could meet that criteria, sure yeah, totally unrealistic they'd end up a pair and unless the story is about their rareness, preposterous. But this match? Totally plausible in present-day US.

Edited December 11, 2016 by theatremouse

[SlackerInc]

18 hours ago, kili said:

 Boats can also be an enormous time sink. They need care and you spend time using it. What if your spouse doesn't want to go boating on the weekend? Sure, you can go by yourself, but who is taking the kids to the weekend soccer game then? 

It's like a dog. You might be able to afford one, but you should probably discuss it with your spouse before you suddenly buy one on a whim and take it home. They involve on-going costs, time and impact lifestyle.

I don't think it's like a dog at all.  Unless it was a greyhound that was used for track racing and you went to visit it occasionally at the kennel you paid to care for and train the animal.  Someone like Randall can buy a boat, pay for the dock space, and forget about it if he wants to.  I went to a public high school in the "rich" part of town even though my own family was of more modest means.  So I had friends whose parents had boats like this.  Some of them used the boats a lot, but others might use them once or twice a season if that.  (Good place for teens to go throw parties.)

If OTOH he does want to use the boat a lot and Beth doesn't or feels Randall is shirking his familial responsibilities, then at that point she is absolutely within her rights to make a stink.

More generally, she just has a kind of personality I don't like (though it is, again, realistic and well acted).  Many of her scenes amount to her opening her eyes wide, staring Randall or someone else down, and saying something that amounts to "say what now?" in a very skeptical/aggressive/critical mode.  Practically the only time I've seen her act any other way is when Randall is having a really tough time, or she herself is having a tough time (the pregnancy scare).  She should be able to act chill, friendly, etc. at other times, not just when a situation is dire.

14 hours ago, OtterMommy said:

I still don't think there was any fanservice there.  I've watched shows where the plot was very clearly changed at the last minute to accommodate, among other things, the squawkings of a group of people on Twitter...and it is pretty obvious that it wasn't thought through at all.  I don't get that feeling from the Olivia story line.

Huh, that's interesting.  Great illustration of how MMV.  I don't see how anyone (regardless of how you personally felt about Olivia) when watching that fiercely romantic moment at the end of "Pilgrim Rick", after William basically says "go to him" and she does, would have predicted that less than an hour's screen time later, Olivia would be out of the episode completely and referred to as having disappeared a month earlier, while Kevin seems to move forward with a budding relationship with a different character.  Even if it wasn't actually fanservice, that seems like a huge swerve to me.

2 hours ago, Laurie4H said:

I didn't say it was unrealistic that a guy would fall for a overweight person who had a hot wife.  Why do my words get twisted.  I said it was unrealistic for someone that DRASTICALLY overweight and that it would be more realistic if maybe she was 50 lbs overweight and a size 16 or so.  I didn't say overweight equals ugly. 

I'm with you.  I said in Kate's thread that although on the one hand I think "settling" is underrated (that for most of us, it's better to be with someone who isn't ideal than to be alone), there is still a threshold of attractiveness a potential mate has to clear, and someone as severely obese as Kate just doesn't clear it for many and probably most of us.  So I agree with you that it would work better in the scenario you describe, or we could even compromise and go to a size 20.  (Is there even a number for Kate's size?  Honest question.)

I wanted to weigh in (heh) on whether the revelation of William's sexuality was "political" (I think it is, but that's not necessarily a bad thing) but this is long enough already, so I'll take that point to the social issues thread.

[breezy424]

18 hours ago, kili said:

 Boats can also be an enormous time sink. They need care and you spend time using it. What if your spouse doesn't want to go boating on the weekend? Sure, you can go by yourself, but who is taking the kids to the weekend soccer game then? 

It's like a dog. You might be able to afford one, but you should probably discuss it with your spouse before you suddenly buy one on a whim and take it home. They involve on-going costs, time and impact lifestyle.

But Randall wasn't thinking about all that. He's depressed and buys things when depressed. Things he probably doesn't want or need. Beth watches out for him and points it out when he's going a bit off the deep end. If he'd been wanting a boat for a long time and talking about it, it probably wouldn't be a big deal. But making a major purchase on a whim at a Christmas party is probably not a great idea.

I don't know if Randall buying the boat was about depression.  When I viewed the episode, I thought it was more about helping someone out that was desperate for money. 

Yep, a 'boat' can be a money pit.  I know.  We had one.  A '$100,000 plus' one.  It was my husband's thing.  We did discuss it.  I wasn't ultra happy but we could afford it and he wanted it a lot.  After a number of years, he got that the rest of the family wasn't into it as much as he was and he decided to sell it.  But it was discussed beforehand.  Those kind of purchases should be discussed unless you're uber rich.  Randall is doing well but he's not uber rich (four bedroom house, no full time 'servants', etc.). 

[biakbiak]

51 minutes ago, breezy424 said:

I don't know if Randall buying the boat was about depression.  When I viewed the episode, I thought it was more about helping someone out that was desperate for money. 

It seems weird for the show to specifically have Beth mention that sepending money randomly was a thing he did when he was depressed and have him say that he wished he could go back to a time before he changed everything by finding William if they didn't want us to think it was about depression. He didn't even appear to know about Andy's money problems until he was told about them when he was contemplating jumping.

Edited December 11, 2016 by biakbiak

[ShadowFacts]

4 hours ago, biakbiak said:

It seems weird for the show to specifically have Beth mention that sepending money randomly was a thing he did when he was depressed and have him say that he wished he could go back to a time before he changed everything by finding William if they didn't want us to think it was about depression. He didn't even appear to know about Andy's money problems until he was told about them when he was contemplating jumping.

Spending like that can be a feature of the mania side of bipolar disorder.  He certainly does seem manic at times.  He mentioned his $140,000 car to William so maybe he does spend quite freely.

[Guest]

Oh good point.  I'd be in for a bipolar story if they could do it tactfully.  He did seem manic Thanksgiving morning, though I think that was just to show the strong effect of the Pilgrim Rick day.