S33.E10: Million Dollar Gamble

[piequinn35]

I was looking at Ken's chest all the time when he was chopping the coconuts :)

[candall]

Note:  I was over there spiking my holiday morning coffee and didn't hear the meanness directed David's way, so that doesn't factor into my post (although the beverage might.  Hi there.)

 

--That "reward" scene between Zeke and Brett is why Survivor can go fifty seasons, as far as I'm concerned.  "I don't really care for beer, but if someone's looking to bond with a beer bro, sign me up."  Smart:  the thinking, always thinking.  And then, one of the few genuinely thought-provoking distinctions between the older and younger generations (which this show insisted on hammering home about a million times, to little avail.)  "It never even occurred to me not to tell everyone."  As a gen-Boomer, that makes me weepy-eyed. 

 

--I assumed the high point of the two hours would be "100%-er" Chris's blindside and they doubled up to burn off a dud episode, but ha, not even close.  They distill those long TCs down to a few high drama points, but I'm pretty sure Probst hastened to pull the plug before any "unanimous" decision shook out.  To which I say:  Way to go, Jeff!  Rocks!

 

--I have an idol; don't tell anyone.  PEOPLE!  STILL?  I know there's very little currency available to trade other than secrets, but, please, let me count the ways . . .

 

--How terrific is it we've been spared FigTayls & The Smooth Crew running the operation?  This island of misfit toys is so much more interesting.

[AliShibaz]

Upon reflection on all of Jessica's tears, it seems to me there just had to be a better way to settle that matter.  If that situation ever arises again, I will propose one solution and maybe some of you can propose a better solution?

There were 10 people left. Two of them were tied. If I was one of the other eight, I would propose saying something like this to the rest of them:  "Am I correct in saying that every one of us doesn't really have a preference for which of those two gets voted out as compared to one of us getting voted out? If so, let me propose this solution:"

I will take myself out of the running to decide which of the two goes home. I will pick up a rock and face one direction. The rest of you will go behind my back so I can't see you and stand in some random place. Then, I will throw the rock in the air so that it lands behind me so I can't see where it lands. The person closest to the landing place will then choose which of the two gets voted out. If that is objectionable because it may cause hard feelings by the person who gets voted out and the person who decides, then another way to do this is that all seven of the remaining people can huddle up so the two who got votes can't see what goes on and then, the person standing nearest the rock can just tap someone and that person will decide and they will point in the direction of one of the two people.

That may be  a little too complicated. But my point is there must be an easy way for the 8  people to choose who will go home in such a way that the person who gets voted out will not know who made the decision. Can anyone here think of a simpler method?

The key is that surely the 8 people would prefer one of the two to get voted out instead of one of the eight!  IMHO, that is only fair since those two people are the ones who got the most votes. Why should anyone else get voted out? Especially if they never got any votes?

Does that seem like a reasonable way to proceed? It may be a little too complicated. But surely someone can think of a simpler way to do it? Maybe someone could just carry some stones to each TC where all of them are one color and one is a different color and then, those stones could be used to decide who will get voted out? Or maybe they could carry 8 straws and one of them could be a short straw?

It's just so bizarre and absurd that someone who got no votes should be the person voted out. That's ridiculous and if that is "according to the Rules of Survivor", then it wouldn't surprise me at all because I have a very low opinion of Probst and his intelligence and his making up rules on the spot. IMO, he often makes silly decisions. Just my opinion.

There just has to be a better way. Probst really did influence the competition and the vote in several ways. He kept telling some people they had to do certain things. I thought it was unfair. I think Probst has way too much influence on who get voted out. I think he is ridiculous. Or ... maybe just dickless!  I must say that I am just terribly unhappy with Probst. I really and truly despise the jerk! Whadda jerk!!

I apologize for being so wordy. But there just has to be a better way to decide than for some poor innocent to get voted out given they never did anything to deserve it. And Probst? Holy Shit! Please tell me. How do his "rules" fit in to this wonderful game and its strategy "Outwit, Outlast and Outplay". Probst keeps telling us just how fabulous and fantastic the game of Survivor is. Well ... how fabulous can it be if the winner is, in part, selected by some purely random event? That smells like complete bullshit to me!

What a bunch of shit!   I'm truly sorry.  I have nothing but contempt for Probst.  AFAIC, he is just full of shit!  A dickless shit bag - full of shit!  Completely full of shit!  What an asshole cocksucker!!!

I'm sorry for using that kind of language. But, for some reason, I just can't help myself for the way I feel. I never did like Jessica very much. But surely, she did not deserve to get voted out like that. She did not deserve to get treated like that. Dspecially since she did not get a single vote.

I believe in America. I believe America is better than that.  Much better! Much much better!!! No one deserves to be treated like that in America! Fucking Probst!  What a jerk! What a fucking jerk!!  I like Survivor and so far, I especially like this season.  Honest.  I truly do.  But ... I have had just about had enough of this Probst and I have had just about had enough of this season. What a bunch of fucking bullshit!

I am really and truly pissed right off!  Probst? If you are reading this, please go away and fuck yourself. You stupid fucking jagoff!

Edited November 25, 2016 by AliShibaz

[piequinn35]

If I was one of the 8, I would just flip my vote, I really don't care about Hannah if I am a gen-exer.

[AliShibaz]

28 minutes ago, piequinn35 said:

If I was one of the 8, I would just flip my vote, I really don't care about Hannah if I am a gen-exer.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Hannah's a banana!

Edited November 24, 2016 by AliShibaz

[SlackerInc]

3 hours ago, Lamima said:

Sunday and Bret have been on most of the winning reward teams and many team immunities yet you called them goats.

Can you link me to the post where I said this?  TIA, because I don't remember saying this at all, and I want to find out if I'm having blackouts or memory loss or something.

[Lingo]

12 hours ago, Charlesman said:

Best moments: the side-by-side parallel editing of Zeke and David saying the exact same things. And Jay solving the maze and then stopping once he was through to politely close the door behind him. Hilarious. 

I laughed at that too, and then I realized that he had to close the door to prevent the players to his right from getting a peek at the maze (they were all doing the same maze). I wouldn't be surprised if they were instructed to close the door.

12 hours ago, Daisy said:

Okay this is one of my favourite episodes now. But pour one out to Gingerbeard. I liked you and your weird American Accent. Bye Gingerbeard. And all the hugs to Jess. I, personally don't blame her for sticking with Rocks (for the same reason why Tyson decided to take the risk. There's a chance you win and you get the numbers). and Rock people are always remembered, and chances are Jessica can come back so it's all good. 
 

Actually I can't remember who it was who drew the bad rock in Blood vs. Water. It wasn't Tyson (obviously), it wasn't that Big Brother guy (he was immune), and I'm pretty sure it wasn't Ciera either. I remember it being some poor girl in Ciera's alliance who took the fall. And apparently she hasn't been invited back.

6 hours ago, Haleth said:

I laughed till I cried when Will told Zeke that Jay had an idol, but don't tell anyone!  Zeke immediately tells David who tells Hannah and Chris who tells Bret...  Worst kept secret ever.

Come to think about it, did Will ever find out that Zeke blabbed to everyone? It's funny when Zeke interviewed about that, said something like "The best way to build trust is to give out information like that," and I was thinking, "No Zeke, that's how you prove to people that they can't trust you with their secrets." And at that point I was starting to worry that Zeke was overplaying.

5 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

This is when I yelled out at the television. Honestly, I started wondering if she wanted him to know she'd flipped. Because the whole thing was so stupid. I know people always say it's easier watching at home and viewers get to see things the players didn't and at the same time, editing doesn't show everything. But I cannot see any reasonable explanation for the way Hannah reacted in that conversation with Zeke. Like you said, all the dumbass had to do was say, "yeah I see what you mean about David, okay." And then move along and Zeke is none the wiser.

Yeah, I agree. But I understand what she was trying to do. She was trying to have her cake and eat it too. She wanted to steer Zeke toward some other target so she could keep both of her alliances in play as long as possible. She has good ideas but she's spectacularly bad at executing them. Still, she is so endearing that I want to see her go to the end.

4 hours ago, AZChristian said:

My first thought was that Brett came out of a closet that he just built on the way to the reward. In other words, he told Zeke was gay as a way to bond.  But is he really?  I'm honestly not sure.  If he's fought his whole life to keep that a secret (Boston cop, ex-military), is he going to be so matter-of-fact about telling someone on national TV with a camera in his face?  He may be gay as much as he is a funeral director.

No, he really is gay. If you go to his personal thread on this forum you'll see a pre-season interview with him in "Out" magazine. He is gay but he just doesn't talk about it much.

3 hours ago, Lamima said:

Sunday and Bret have been on most of the winning reward teams and many team immunities yet you called them goats. And Michele won like one II, right? Woopie...Dave just won one and Jess came in second but many said she was not much of a Survivor player. Michele did nothing, she was a goat that won due to a bitter douche jury...JMO

Looked at Wiki and Michele won 2 II. Still, not enough to award her the big W in my opinion.

It seems many of us have different definitions of goat. I'm not sure how to define it. But to me, a goat is a person who can't win because they are so disliked, so if you win, you are by definition not a goat. Tai was more of a goat than Michelle last season. For the same reason, I can't call Brett and Sunday goats because I see no evidence that anyone dislikes them, though after Brett's outbursts that may change.

[piequinn35]

Back to the IC, was Jay the only one using both hands? Did the others think to only use one hand? :/

It's like driving, look or feel where you want to go.

[Daisy]

The thing is - for me. I miss the whole "the two people duke it out." or even more "prior votes against.

Especially in this era where splitting votes is so rampant now. Throw in the wrench of "if there is a tie and the revote, previous votes against you does come into play. What do you do? I mean you want to try and flush the idol, but - at the same time, what about all the random votes? That can come into play too. Blindsides have more weight as well (because as we've seen (had yesterday worked) - say - you save Hannah - and boot out Zeke.. but how in another tie, Hannah's in danger because of X votes). It's still v. drama

I also loved the whole thingerbopper with the quiz and what do you know. I'm so Old School Survivor.

Don't get me wrong - I LOVE rocks. but I don't think it's fair that those who got votes - are immune. I heard the logic before but the logic still makes z.e.r.o. sense to me.  (also  don't remember It teehe).

4 minutes ago, Lingo said:

Actually I can't remember who it was who drew the bad rock in Blood vs. Water. It wasn't Tyson (obviously), it wasn't that Big Brother guy (he was immune), and I'm pretty sure it wasn't Ciera either. I remember it being some poor girl in Ciera's alliance who took the fall. And apparently she hasn't been invited back.

 

it was Katie - Tina's daughter. And she was like whatever. (I think at that point she was kinda done with the game, I always had that feeling). (and to be fair we've only had 1 returnee season since then. And there was no way Katie was coming on before Ciera). 

Edited November 24, 2016 by Daisy

[Ms Blue Jay]

24 minutes ago, Lingo said:

It seems many of us have different definitions of goat. I'm not sure how to define it. But to me, a goat is a person who can't win because they are so disliked, so if you win, you are by definition not a goat. Tai was more of a goat than Michelle last season. For the same reason, I can't call Brett and Sunday goats because I see no evidence that anyone dislikes them, though after Brett's outbursts that may change.

I agree, everyone defines it differently.  I totally respect this opinion but I admit I'm biased towards the other way.  My definition of goat is somebody edited to seem like they're doing nothing, i.e. Michelle in Aubrey's season, Natalie in Russell's season, Cassandra in Earl's (and yes, that's how I see the seasons, and I know some posters will hate this.).  It's just the way I am.  I don't see Tai as a goat because he's a hard player, and the same with Russell Hantz.  I admit, my personal preferences toward certain personalities makes me feel this way, and same with my personal aversion to players who are edited to seem like they're boring and do nothing all season, like Michelle.

Sunday kind of annoys me, and sometimes I think she's stupid, but I have to admit she's playing well.  To me, definitively, I think Sunday and Hannah are playing well because they're still there.  It sucks that everyone - because of editing - points out JESSICA making the mistake of going to rocks.  No, to me, 8 separate people ALL collectively made what I think is a mistake to go to rocks.  It's just that the editing focused on Jessica, and Jessica ended up being eliminated for it.  She just happened to be the Star of this particular story.  But she was just as dumb as the other 7 and the other 7 were just as dumb as she was.  No one was smarter than another in my opinion. But besides the rock idiocy, Brett and Sunday have played a good game so far.   I think other viewers see Brett and Sunday playing a bad game, because they don't LIKE them.  They don't like their personalities, therefore, they are playing a bad game.  It's the same with Hannah.  

I'm not nuts, I can see that Tai and Russell - and Spencer in Jeremy's season, for a great example - ALIENATED a lot of the jury.  But I guess I prefer players like that to others, and I kind of hate that a jury not liking you ends up factoring so much in a win.  My personal opinion.  I wish people who played harder got rewarded with a win more than people who simply didn't offend anyone.  (And YES, I understand that's not the game as it stands.)

In opposition to Hannah, Brett, and Sunday --- Will does bother me, though.  I just think he never has any true idea what's going on and seems to always get forgotten and carried.  He never seems to be orchestrating a vote or being part of one that matters.  This year, he is my goat.

Edited November 24, 2016 by Ms Blue Jay

[charleeeeeeeeene]

7 minutes ago, Daisy said:

9 minutes ago, Lingo said:

Actually I can't remember who it was who drew the bad rock in Blood vs. Water. It wasn't Tyson (obviously), it wasn't that Big Brother guy (he was immune), and I'm pretty sure it wasn't Ciera either. I remember it being some poor girl in Ciera's alliance who took the fall. And apparently she hasn't been invited back.

 

it was Katie - Tina's daughter. And she was like whatever. (I think at that point she was kinda done with the game, I always had that feeling). (and to be fair we've only had 1 returnee season since then. And there was no way Katie was coming on before Ciera). 

Katie going home during that tribal was basically the equivalent of what we would have had if Will went home on the rock draw- not a very compelling character and no chance to win (based on what we'd been shown about her game). I would be really surprised if she ever got asked back unless it was an entire season of people who were sent home without getting voted out (rocks, medevacs, whatever the heck happened to Kimmi in Cambodia). 

10 minutes ago, Daisy said:

Don't get me wrong - I LOVE rocks. but I don't think it's fair that those who got votes - are immune. I heard the logic before but the logic still makes z.e.r.o. sense to me.  (also  don't remember It teehe).

I don't know that it's -the- reason, but I think it makes sense to "punish" the people who can't come to a consensus about the vote. It also makes the game a little more interesting because there's increased incentive to flip on your alliance instead of letting it go all the way to rocks.

I do feel bad for Jessica going out like that, but I couldn't believe she and the others were willing to risk sacrificing their games for Hannah, who I would hardly consider an integral (or very reliable) part of the alliance... but maybe that's my lowkey dislike for Hannah speaking. She and Will are the only ones I'm rooting against right now, but still, not with the intense hatred that I felt for the Tattoo Goons of last season.

Jay continues to be my fav. "Is that how you spell it?" May he keep smiling that cheeky smile all the way to the finals... :) 

[Lingo]

1 hour ago, AliShibaz said:

The key is that surely the 8 people would prefer one of the two to get voted out instead of one of the eight!  IMHO, that is only fair since those two people are the ones who got the most votes. Why should anyone else get voted out? Especially if they never got any votes?

[snip]

It's just so bizarre and absurd that someone who got no votes should be the person voted out. That's ridiculous and if that is "according to the Rules of Survivor", then it wouldn't surprise me at all because I have a very low opinion of Probst and his intelligence and his making up rules on the spot. IMO, he often makes silly decisions. Just my opinion.

There just has to be a better way. Probst really did influence the competition and the vote in several ways. He kept telling some people they had to do certain things. I thought it was unfair. I think Probst has way too much influence on who get voted out. I think he is ridiculous.

Sorry to be so long winded. But there just has to be a better way to decide than for some poor innocent to get voted out given they never did anything to deserve it. And Probst? Holy Shit! Please tell me. How does his "rules" fit in to this wonderful game and its strategy of "Outwit, Outlast and Outplay". Probst keeps telling us what a fabulous fantastic game this is. Well ... how fantastic is it if the winner is, in part, selected by some purely random event? That smells like complete bullshit to me! Complete bullshit!

I never cared very much for Jessica. But surely, she did not deserve that. No one deserves shit like that! Stupid fucking Probst!

Well, first of all, there are no rules being made on the spot. These have been the rules since at least Season 10, I wanna say (I remember the rules being discussed on air since one tribal almost came to a rock draw but didn't), maybe even since Season 5. (Season 4 had the first rock draw, but that was at F4 which they don't do anymore.) It's the same rules, although a lot of people aren't aware of them or forget them since it comes up onscreen so rarely.

And it is, in a sense, unfair. I think it's designed to be unfair. I think the producers decided that they wanted to minimize the chance of ties as much as possible because ties, while dramatic, eat up a lot of airtime. And the old ways of breaking the ties were problematic. The S1 method of just revoting over and over until someone changes their mind was too time-consuming. The S2 method of using past votes was problematic because the players don't get to see all the votes, I guess, and it's more difficult for the viewers to follow since most viewers don't keep track of how many prior votes each player got either. And the S3 method of having a quiz about the season's locale was frankly anticlimactic, time-consuming, and barely relevant to the Survivor experience.

But the rock draw is relatively quick, and what's more it's designed to be unfair to discourage tie votes from happening. And the biggest factor of all: it's hella dramatic!

[Rachel RSL]

13 hours ago, AliShibaz said:

There was a very famous criminal case where someone was wrongfully convicted of rape and murder and spent 23 years in prison. Why? Because the investigating police called him a, "weird type guy". That was all it took to send him to prison for 23 years. It took a very long time to get him out. I think his name was David Milgaard. But I could easily be mistaken. It was a very long time ago.

It was a monstrous outrage! It changed my opinion of the police forever.

That case was a travesty for sure but David Milgarde wasn't convicted because the police thought he was a "weird type guy", he was convicted because a bunch of his friends lied to the police and gave false testimony which they recanted years later. 

I never cared very much for Jessica. But surely, she did not deserve that. No one deserves shit like that! Stupid fucking Probst!

I respectfully disagree that she did deserve it. I mean, no doubt, randomly drawing the wrong rock is a crappy way to go out of the game, but it was Jessica's own choice that got her to that point. She had the chance to save herself and switch her vote but she chose not to, even though you could tell that everything inside her was telling her to switch. I strongly suspect that was one of the reasons she had such an emotional reaction to getting booted: we've all been there, when we KNOW that we should do something but we go against what our gut is telling us, and then kick ourselves after.  It's a lot easier to be angry at someone else than it is to be angry at yourself. 

I do agree with "Stupid fucking Probst" though ;)

[Lingo]

11 minutes ago, charleeeeeeeeene said:

Katie going home during that tribal was basically the equivalent of what we would have had if Will went home on the rock draw- not a very compelling character and no chance to win (based on what we'd been shown about her game). I would be really surprised if she ever got asked back unless it was an entire season of people who were sent home without getting voted out (rocks, medevacs, whatever the heck happened to Kimmi in Cambodia). 

Heh...Off-topic but how about Rupert in Blood v. Water? He got eliminated in a unique way that will probably never be repeated: His wife got voted out (not even in a Tribal Council but in a spontaneous straw poll), he decided to switch places with her and go to Redemption Island, and then he lost an RI challenge and was eliminated.

I know, I know ... there are probably very few people here who want to see Rupert yet again, myself included!

[SlackerInc]

Why is everyone saying Jessica was the stupid one not to switch her vote? No one else switched their vote either.    I've said I think it's generally a bad move to switch votes in that situation no matter who you are, but even if you disagree with that: why weren't all the others stupid as well? 

[Lingo]

4 minutes ago, SlackerInc said:

Why is everyone saying Jessica was the stupid one not to switch her vote? No one else switched their vote either.    I've said I think it's generally a bad move to switch votes in that situation no matter who you are, but even if you disagree with that: why weren't all the others stupid as well? 

Yes, I hope we can agree the degree of their stupidity was equal!

[Daisy]

i think people are pushing on Jessica because she was the most vocal about it and Zeke was really saying "I know i'm the target but I've jumped and made different moves so it's not just going to be my alliance." I think if you are that unsure, then you should move. 

[Lantern7]

She had a one-in-six shot of going out. It was basically Russian Roulette, Survivor-style. Hoping for one of the empty chambers wasn't as smart as flipping on Hannah. The messed-up part is that Jessica was the strongest of the remaining women, and we're left with Sunday and Hannah, both of who are  longshots to win.

[JudyObscure]

16 hours ago, ShadowSixx said:

I'm so upset with my roommate. She deleted Survivor after she watched it when I asked her not to as I had to work and I would watch it after I got off work. I look in the DVR for recordings and it's not there. So she was sleep on the couch and I woke up her up and told her to give me the rundown and who was eliminated lol. It was wrong for me to wake her up but I didn't care.

Lord help her she could barely remember. I had to name off the remaining players until she said that was the person that was eliminated. 

You have my permission to kill her.

-----------------------

At the start of the two hours I was saying that the only fault in this wonderful season was that I liked everyone and didn't have anyone to hate.  Now I have Bret and Zeke!   Perfect.

[pamplemousse]

2 hours ago, SlackerInc said:

Can you link me to the post where I said this?  TIA, because I don't remember saying this at all, and I want to find out if I'm having blackouts or memory loss or something.

Maybe that person thought you are me because I said it and I stand by it 100%. Sunday and Brett are goats and I think so not because I hate them (well, I kind of liked Brett even though I already thought he was about 92% useless as a player on his own merits up until last night and Sunday was stupid with her Jess paranoia but I never hated her, she was just there like a lump on a log or a soldier to whoever was willing to take her along), it's because they are shitty players. I totally do not think that just because you are still in the game automatically means you are a good player by virtue of that. Nor do I think that just because you happened to end up on some winning reward teams by doing very little to contribute, or the base amount that pretty much anyone else would do, and you ended up there because other people on your team are good at puzzles or good at physical games means you're not a goat. They're shitty goaty players because they do not think for themselves other than to hitch their wagon to someone trying to mastermind and then ride as far as they can get. They were ready to throw in the towel and vote each other until Jay approached them and told them to vote for Michaela (something that happened offscreen, but it wasn't their idea, they didn't come up with it, it was Jay's because he was threatened by her).

And I don't think for a moment that Sunday or Brett came up with the idea to throw Ken's name out there to muddy the waters, Zeke probably told them to beforehand -- if David or his group got the wind up that it was going to be Hannah, throw out a name of someone else in his alliance who speaks up. I don't think I'm giving Zeke too much credit and Brett and Sunday too little. The former is smart and went to Harvard as a recruit for the debate team (manipulating people with his words is kind of a forte of his) and is incredibly good at puzzles, the latter two are numbskulls of the highest order. The only positive thing I can say about Brett and Sunday is that they are some of the best goats who ever goated, they've very good at following directions.

I'm not surprised that Zeke and Brett weren't too broken up about Chris getting voted off. I think Chris overestimated how much value he had to Zeke. Zeke already knew that Chris would be a threat to him if he let Chris get too far in the game because Chris was trying to run the game too, Chris was playing from the top and Zeke recognized that. I think Zeke is fundamentally ruthless and everyone in his alliance is dispensable to him -- aside from Hannah being a bad liar (and I think she was trying to keep both options open), I think Zeke at that point already suspected she had turned on him and he had just asked her to get confirmation of it. As for Brett, he knew Chris had to go eventually and it didn't matter to him because he could always offer himself as pawn (I'm sure he doesn't see it that way) to someone else playing from the top who wants to drag him along, doesn't matter if that's Chris, Zeke, or the bug that attached itself to Taylor's shirt, as long as he gets to sit on his ass and drink beer and just vote how he's told to vote.

I'm not as worried about Ken as I was last night. I thought Jess was his main ally, but I think his #1 is still David and he is still David's #1. I think that's why David made the kind of dopey move to take Adam's word based on something Sunday said and put up his immunity idol for Ken instead of Hannah. I think David panicked at the chance that Sunday wasn't bluffing and they really were going to switch their vote to Ken. Still kind of sad, though, because I sort of saw Ken and Jess as the dad and mom of the group.

Edited November 24, 2016 by pamplemousse

[MissEwa]

1 hour ago, AliShibaz said:

Upon reflection on all of Jessica's tears, it seems to me there just had to be a better way to settle that matter.  If that situation ever arises again, I will propose one solution and maybe some of you can propose a better solution?

There were 10 people left. Two of them were tied. If I was one of the other eight, I would propose saying something like this to the rest of them:  "Am I correct in saying that every one of us doesn't really have a preference for which of those two gets voted out as compared to one of us getting voted out? If so, let me propose this solution:"

I will take myself out of the running to decide which of the two goes home. I will pick up a rock and face one direction. The rest of you will go behind my back so I can't see you and stand in some random place. Then, I will throw the rock in the air so that it lands behind me so I can't see where it lands. The person closest to the landing place will then choose which of the two gets voted out. If that is objectionable because it may cause hard feelings by the person who gets voted out and the person who decides, then another way to do this is that all seven of the remaining people can huddle up so the two who got votes can't see what goes on and then, the person standing nearest the rock can just tap someone and that person will decide and they will point in the direction of one of the two people.

That may be  a little too complicated. But my point is there must be an easy way for the 8  people to choose who will go home in such a way that the person who gets voted out will not know who made the decision. Can anyone here think of a simpler method?

The key is that surely the 8 people would prefer one of the two to get voted out instead of one of the eight!  IMHO, that is only fair since those two people are the ones who got the most votes. Why should anyone else get voted out? Especially if they never got any votes?

Does that seem like a reasonable way to proceed? It may be a little too complicated. But surely someone can think of a simpler way to do it? Maybe someone could just carry some stones to each TC where all of them are one color and one is a different color and then, those stones could be used to decide who will get voted out? Or maybe they could carry 8 straws and one of them could be a short straw?

It's just so bizarre and absurd that someone who got no votes should be the person voted out. That's ridiculous and if that is "according to the Rules of Survivor", then it wouldn't surprise me at all because I have a very low opinion of Probst and his intelligence and his making up rules on the spot. IMO, he often makes silly decisions. Just my opinion.

There just has to be a better way. Probst really did influence the competition and the vote in several ways. He kept telling some people they had to do certain things. I thought it was unfair. I think Probst has way too much influence on who get voted out. I think he is ridiculous.

Sorry to be so long winded. But there just has to be a better way to decide than for some poor innocent to get voted out given they never did anything to deserve it. And Probst? Holy Shit! Please tell me. How does his "rules" fit in to this wonderful game and its strategy of "Outwit, Outlast and Outplay". Probst keeps telling us what a fabulous fantastic game this is. Well ... how fantastic is it if the winner is, in part, selected by some purely random event? That smells like complete bullshit to me! Complete bullshit!

I never cared very much for Jessica. But surely, she did not deserve that. No one deserves shit like that! Stupid fucking Probst!

The contestants could have decided to settle it in one of those ways (or something similarly random), and I don't think Jeff could have stopped them, but as a producer-mandated solution to ties, I love the P(B)ROD. It flips the target and makes the voters vulnerable - not their alliance, but them, personally. And given we've only seen it come into play three(?) times in 33 seasons, it's obviously a good deterrent. Any producer-mandated solution where the two targets stay the targets gives voters no incentive to switch, and I think we'd end up seeing ties all the time. 

It kind of plays into why I love Survivor as a whole. To win, you need to get to the end, but you need to do so in a way where the people you've beaten still want to give you a million dollars. You can't just steamroll through, Russell-Hantz-style and expect the win. The PROD says 'go ahead, force a tie, but be aware - it might cost you.' I like that everything you do in the game has consequences. 

24 minutes ago, Lingo said:

...I understand what she was trying to do. She was trying to have her cake and eat it too. She wanted to steer Zeke toward some other target so she could keep both of her alliances in play as long as possible. She has good ideas but she's spectacularly bad at executing them. Still, she is so endearing that I want to see her go to the end.

Me too. For me with Hannah it mostly comes down to the fact that she reminds me so much of me (which makes it amusing to read all the hate she gets, and reinforces my long-held thought that I should never, ever do it). It wasn't even a bad move - it was a fine idea, but she just choked on the execution. It was such a 'Okay, Mr Burns, what's your first name?' 'I... don't... know...' moment and to her credit, she realised it right away. 

I don't think I've ever noticed Ken's eyes before - they're so pretty. And that whole sunrise thing was super-cheesy but still somehow adorable. I feel like so much of what he does walks that line and on someone else it'd be eyeroll-worthy but he pulls it off. I wish David had played his idol correctly, but given he didn't I'm glad he played it for Ken and made it so he was safe during the whole rock thing. 

I'm confused about the timeline of the rest of the season - we're eleven episodes in and there are still nine players. So six going into the finale? Or a double between now and then? 

[ratgirlagogo]

I've hardly posted here since I've been kind of bored by this season - not sure why.  But WOW that was a twofer for the ages!  Going for rocks!

[SlackerInc]

2 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

She had a one-in-six shot of going out. It was basically Russian Roulette, Survivor-style. Hoping for one of the empty chambers wasn't as smart as flipping on Hannah. 

So she increases her chances of staying three more days from 83% to 100%. But you don't think there is any tradeoff? She would then have gone against everyone still in the game, either at the first or second vote, not to mention Hannah, and looked like an untrustworthy and wishy-washy person. I cannot imagine someone fretting and moaning over not wanting to draw rocks while everyone else has the courage to take the risk, and then being the only one to lose that courage and flip...and ending up getting the million dollars from the jury. I just can't see it.  So what's the point? The object of the game is not "ensure you stay three more days". Although a lot of players do act like it is.

[waving feather]

31 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

I think Bret is so much smarter than people give him credit for being.  So much so, that I didn't believe any word coming out of his pie hole, when he had his conversation over a beer with Zeke.  There is no question that in my mind that he can read the room rather easily.  Given his line of work, he would have to be able to do that.  I think he is the most dangerous person left in the game, and that he is the one that should have been voted out before Chris and Jessica.

Bret actually has a poker face, the polar opposite of Hannah.  Hannah seems to be the type of person that feels tremendous guilt when it comes to lying.  It is written all over her face.

I don't think Zeke will be in the game much longer.  He has become too high profile. 

I think Bret is smart too. He's sort of playing the goat game but he's aware of it and always staying in someone's shadow. After Chris left, he immediately latched onto Zeke, instead of being on the outs. And for the most part, I think he can read people easily during tribal council. His bullying of David wasn't for personal reasons but I think he just wanted to make a big hoo-ha and put the target on David. So I wouldn't call him a terrible person just yet. It's sort of how Taylor and Jay threw Adam under the bus during the last tribal. They are trying to sway opinions, not being jerks for the sake of it. In Bret's secret confessional, he was very complimentary of David. After Jessica was out, he immediately turned to everyone to tell him it was David's idea to go to rocks, to put a target on David again. 

It was a smart move of Will to jump off a sinking ship from Jay. But I thought he jumped the gun about telling Zeke about Jay's idol. He should have kept that info until Zeke's alliance could use it properly.

[ghoulina]

6 hours ago, waving feather said:

I like both equally. A player can do both depending on their circumstances (which are sometimes out of their control, like a tribe swap). Laying low as a choice to take the target off you is not a "goat" to me. Laying low because you are lazy and not seizing the opportunities presented to you makes you a "goat". Big moves for the sake of making them doesn't impress me either. Like Adam, always talking about making moves that sometimes don't make sense. But lately he's cooled off on that so that's good.

This season has less goats than usual. Everyone came to play. The only ones I can think of is Bret, Sunday and maybe Will.

I agree. I notice something different going on when a player is being quiet and subtle on purpose, and when they're just not trying to play the game. I'm sure other people's interpretations are different, and I respect that. But, for me, there is definitely a different. I completely see Brett and Sunday as goats. Brett just wants to drink and let someone else make decisions. He hasn't impressed me at all. Sunday is so meh. Will, I'm not sure. He seems more intelligent, as if he's intentionally laying low. We shall see. 

[ghoulina]

5 hours ago, candall said:

--I have an idol; don't tell anyone.  PEOPLE!  STILL?  I know there's very little currency available to trade other than secrets, but, please, let me count the ways . . .

WHY do people keep telling??? I get that they think it buys them some trust/leverage, but it almost never works out. The only person on that island I'd tell is Ken. Not because I'd want a chance to stare into his soulful eyes, but because I 100% think he's the only out there you could trust to never tell. 

 

3 hours ago, Daisy said:

 

The thing is - for me. I miss the whole "the two people duke it out." or even more "prior votes against.

 

I really loved the previous votes rule, and I totally miss it. 

 

2 hours ago, SlackerInc said:

Why is everyone saying Jessica was the stupid one not to switch her vote? No one else switched their vote either.    I've said I think it's generally a bad move to switch votes in that situation no matter who you are, but even if you disagree with that: why weren't all the others stupid as well? 

I guess people are saying that because SHE went home. But, of course, she couldn't know that. That's why I was pissed when Brett was all - "You didn't want to go to rocks, but David did". Like it was fucking David's fault. It was EVERYONE'S fault. No one was willing to bend. 

[Lingo]

This was like the US Legislature fighting over the budget when no one will compromise and so the government gets shut down. Only this time it's one of the senators who loses her job.

[AliShibaz]

3 hours ago, Lingo said:

Well, first of all, there are no rules being made on the spot. These have been the rules since at least Season 10, I wanna say (I remember the rules being discussed on air since one tribal almost came to a rock draw but didn't), maybe even since Season 5. (Season 4 had the first rock draw, but that was at F4 which they don't do anymore.) It's the same rules, although a lot of people aren't aware of them or forget them since it comes up onscreen so rarely.

<snip>

I may be mistaken. But I'm fairly certain these rules were originally made on the spot.

In all likelihood, Probst might have halted the filming and met with TPTB and made those rules off camera. But since then, these rules were presented as if they had always been in place. But do you really believe all these cases were anticipated and rules written before Season One ever began? That may be true. But I strongly doubt it. Can we ever know the truth?

[Rachel RSL]

Count me in on the "Jay reminds me of somebody" club. I think I finally figured it out: Dr. Will from Big Brother! Especially when he smiles. Well, Dr. Will before he became a cautionary tale for Botox use. Anyone else see it? (Wait, upon re-watch. Maybe not. Ugh! Who does he look like?! He *sort of* looks like a bunch of people but there's someone he looks *exactly* like...I just can't figure out who.)

Damn Ken's sturdy shorts for staying on :(

Edited November 25, 2016 by Rachel RSL

[Lingo]

@AliShabaz: Well no. Like I said, the tie-break rules were different in at least Seasons 1-4. They do change rules between seasons sometimes. I have no reason to believe these particular rules were made up on the spot mid-filming at any point. In fact, When Tom and Ian were discussing the possibility of a tie in Season 10 they knew it would come to rocks if the tie held up, and the details of how that would go down, even though it hadn't yet occurred in a TC up to that point. So they managed to avoid the tie (someone flipped, I don't remember who). The most likely reason they knew the tie-break rules is because it was in the rules they are given to read before the season begins.

I know Probst sometimes improvises things in novel situations, such as when he allowed two tribes to negotiate an end to a reward challenge once when it had come to a stalemate and everyone was exhausted. But I think the voting rules are pretty much all lawyered out in detail in advance, so to speak.

Although there is a novel situation I can think of where I don't know how it would be resolved, according to these rules. Imagine there are six people left. One wins immunity in the challenge. Then at TC, for some crazy reason, 3 other players all play immunity idols. That leaves only 2 players who can be voted for.  They vote and re-vote and it is a 3-3 tie. What happens next? No one is eligible to draw rocks!

 

EDIT: In any case, when I said no rules are being made up on the spot, I meant these particular rules in this season. What they did last night is consistent with what we've seen at least since S10, to my recollection.

Edited November 25, 2016 by Lingo

[Jillibean]

Quote

t seems many of us have different definitions of goat. I'm not sure how to define it. But to me, a goat is a person who can't win because they are so disliked, so if you win, you are by definition not a goat.

Yes! To me personally, a goat is more someone whom most people either dislike or see as being somewhat ridiculous who would clearly get no votes due to being unlikeable or relatively absurd. And most of these people never actually make it to the end due to these same qualities. I'm thinking people like Phillip, Kat, Abi, and this season Taylor. Again IMO, being part of an alliance with someone perceived as stronger or more dynamic doesn't make one a goat, nor does a lack of big moves, nor does a general "just being there without doing anything-ness." Those qualities might make someone attractive as someone to sit next to during FTC because it might make them easily beatable, but those qualities could also be legitimate strategies that could result in winning. A goat doesn't win, and to me, if a "goat" does win, he or she clearly wasn't a goat. To me, a goat is someone who could never win under any circumstances if you bring them to the final TC, and that's why you would want one next to you. It doesn't just mean someone who you think played a less interesting, less aggressive, less move-making, quieter game, but someone who is actively disliked or ridiculed. Out of everyone left in the game, I'd say the person closest to goat potential is Hannah, because I think the other players see her as being a bit ridiculous or as in need of coddling even as she views herself as being a strong player.  

I wonder if the players in "Zeke's alliance" realized that going to rocks was going to be an inevitability at this TC. With only five votes and no idol on their side, the best they could have hoped for is a tie, which is what they got. The way Will in particular argued passionately that he didn't want his game jeopardized by going to rocks over two people he didn't care that much about makes me wonder if he fully understood going in what was likely to happen or if Zeke thought he had Adam and said as much to others. 

[Stinamaia]

7 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I don't know why you keep mentioning prissy queens.  I don't remember any such stereotype on this show.  Zeke is not prissy.  Todd wasn't like that.  Anyways, it's not like I really want to get into it anyway, I don't think about people's sexual orientation when I watch the show, and I don't think Survivor is at all like that.  There were a lot of castmates that announced that they were gay on this show, and I hadn't given it any thought either way until they mentioned it.  Another guy on Cook Island - actually two guys, JP and Brad, although I don't know if JP ever announced it.  Not prissy.

And Caleb from blood vs water. One of my favorite guys ever. Such a good guy. So sad he died.

[backformore]

11 hours ago, AZChristian said:

My first thought was that Brett came out of a closet that he just built on the way to the reward. In other words, he told Zeke was gay as a way to bond.  But is he really?  I'm honestly not sure.  If he's fought his whole life to keep that a secret (Boston cop, ex-military), is he going to be so matter-of-fact about telling someone on national TV with a camera in his face?  He may be gay as much as he is a funeral director.

I wondered that as well.   Hey Zeke, you and me, we're not that different, let me tell you a secret about myself that will bond us together and ensure that you will not vote against me.  

It could very well be bullshit.

[Stinamaia]

3 minutes ago, backformore said:

I wondered that as well.   Hey Zeke, you and me, we're not that different, let me tell you a secret about myself that will bond us together and ensure that you will not vote against me.  

It could very well be bullshit.

Bret said he is gay in pre-show interviews. 

[Wandering Snark]

13 hours ago, waving feather said:

Adam still advised David to use it for Ken. Dumb.

Chalk up another great play for Adam... dude is a MESS at tribal. WHY oh why would you listen to him instead of your gut telling you to protect Hannah? Ugh.

[violet and green]

I knew Brett was gay from episode two, as I snuffled around looking for people's ages and it said he was a gay cop from Boston (42), so that made me sit up and notice him a bit more, and I came to really like him. So while that was an inglorious moment with him and Zeke picking on David in a snipey way in the TC, I view it as a momentary spit in a long extended argument - a lowlight.

Overall, I enjoyed those two eps for the touching moments: the tribe getting behind David in that emotional scene, David proudly winning Immunity, Brett saying, we get to go on a helicopter!, and Zeke's eyes bugging out brightly on learning Brett is also gay. As well as the relief of Jay winning Immunity and getting through two tribals. And, phew, Ken stayed safe, too.

Sad for Jessica, but I was so cross with her for not writing Hannah's name down - for my sake! - that it seemed a fitting punishment she drew the black rock.

It started out a pretty horrible season, but I am starting to enjoy it now. Let the good times roll!

[azshadowwalker]

18 hours ago, pamplemousse said:

David wasn't. They were desperate and lashed out because they felt thwarted and threatened by him. Says a lot about what kind of people they truly are. And then to turn it on Ken and mock him too (Ken and David were calm and sane about it, it was Brett and Zeke that were being fuckwits doing the most by running their nasty mouths and trash talking), utter lack of class.

Someone else pointed out that everything we're shown is edited and maybe David could've pissed them off by his regular behavior that we weren't shown because Survivor wants to present him as the hero underdog. Um no, if that's how we view this show, that everything we're shown isn't mostly what is actually going on and we believe with utter skepticism that black is white and white is black then why even watch the show at all? What's the point if David is actually a dick and Brett and Zeke are good guys and Ken is a jerk and Brett/Sunday/Will are actually strategic masterminds? Sorry but lolfuckingno, that stretches the imagination way too much. Occam's razor and all that and it was very obvious that Brett and Zeke were joining up and going off practically frothing at the mouths because they felt threatened. Just like what Jay and Taylor pulled on Adam last TC, there's no way Adam deserved that treatment last week and there's no way Ken and David deserved what they got at TC this week.

What's more, we saw how nasty and angry Zeke is when he doesn't get his way after the Mari vote. Every time Jay or Taylor or any of the others who were labeled "entitled" lost a vote, they moved on. Any anger was confined to private confessionals. Publicly, they took the condescension and constant need to rub it in their faces with good sportsmanship. Jay has even congratulated his opposition. Zeke, Adam and Bret, on the other hand, lash out, get angry, and just flat out act like assholes. This isn't the first time Zeke has shown just how petty and dickish he is, and it's not the first person he has targeted. He's awful. 

[AliShibaz]

56 minutes ago, Stinamaia said:

And Caleb from blood vs water. One of my favorite guys ever. Such a good guy. So sad he died.

Caleb died? Are you kidding? I hope you are joking.

Caleb was on a season of Big Brother and he was a great guy. I was hoping to see him back on Survivor again.

Please say it ain't so that he died. Please?

Here is a link to Wikipedia that makes it look like he is still alive:

https://www.google.ca/search?q=caleb+big+brother&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=DJ83WOSOIOy4jwSu0qCYCw

Edited November 25, 2016 by AliShibaz

[waving feather]

I had no misgivings about Zeke until I watched some of his behind the scene confessionals on YouTube. The way he ridiculed Michelle because she was telling them about Marco Polo writing about dragons was quite unnecessary. And Michelle said in one of her exit interviews that Zeke told her he can't work with her because of her religion or her profession. I thought that was weird. And how personally he seemed to take it when Hannah no longer has his best interests at heart.

I don't think Zeke is a nasty person but he does have a bit of a mean streak.

[truthaboutluv]

2 minutes ago, AliShibaz said:

Caleb died? Are you kidding? I hope you are joking.

Caleb was on a season of Big Brother and he was a great guy. I was hoping to see him back on Survivor again.

Please say it ain't so that he died. Please?

Here is a link to Wikipedia that makes it look like he is still alive:

https://www.google.ca/search?q=caleb+big+brother&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=DJ83WOSOIOy4jwSu0qCYCw

That's a different Caleb. The poster is referring to Caleb who was engaged to Colton and as pointed out, competed on the original Blood v. Water season.

[jumper sage]

6 hours ago, Rachel RSL said:

I respectfully disagree that she did deserve it. I mean, no doubt, randomly drawing the wrong rock is a crappy way to go out of the game, but it was Jessica's own choice that got her to that point. She had the chance to save herself and switch her vote but she chose not to, even though you could tell that everything inside her was telling her to switch. I strongly suspect that was one of the reasons she had such an emotional reaction to getting booted: we've all been there, when we KNOW that we should do something but we go against what our gut is telling us, and then kick ourselves after.  It's a lot easier to be angry at someone else than it is to be angry at yourself. 

I call her ousting Karma with a capital K.

This is the best season in a loooong time.  

[AliShibaz]

2 minutes ago, truthaboutluv said:

That's a different Caleb. The poster is referring to Caleb who was engaged to Colton and as pointed out, competed on the original Blood v. Water season.

Oh. Thanks ever so much for clarifying that. I just found pictures of Caleb and his new gf. She is extremely beautiful. I wish him all happiness.

[SlackerInc]

3 hours ago, ghoulina said:

I guess people are saying that because SHE went home. But, of course, she couldn't know that.

OMG, if that's the "logic" all I can do is facepalm.  Good grief.

[Lamima]

7 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I agree, everyone defines it differently.  I totally respect this opinion but I admit I'm biased towards the other way.  My definition of goat is somebody edited to seem like they're doing nothing, i.e. Michelle in Aubrey's season, Natalie in Russell's season, Cassandra in Earl's (and yes, that's how I see the seasons, and I know some posters will hate this.).  It's just the way I am.  I don't see Tai as a goat because he's a hard player, and the same with Russell Hantz.  I admit, my personal preferences toward certain personalities makes me feel this way, and same with my personal aversion to players who are edited to seem like they're boring and do nothing all season, like Michelle.

Sunday kind of annoys me, and sometimes I think she's stupid, but I have to admit she's playing well.  To me, definitively, I think Sunday and Hannah are playing well because they're still there.  It sucks that everyone - because of editing - points out JESSICA making the mistake of going to rocks.  No, to me, 8 separate people ALL collectively made what I think is a mistake to go to rocks.  It's just that the editing focused on Jessica, and Jessica ended up being eliminated for it.  She just happened to be the Star of this particular story.  But she was just as dumb as the other 7 and the other 7 were just as dumb as she was.  No one was smarter than another in my opinion. But besides the rock idiocy, Brett and Sunday have played a good game so far.   I think other viewers see Brett and Sunday playing a bad game, because they don't LIKE them.  They don't like their personalities, therefore, they are playing a bad game.  It's the same with Hannah.  

I'm not nuts, I can see that Tai and Russell - and Spencer in Jeremy's season, for a great example - ALIENATED a lot of the jury.  But I guess I prefer players like that to others, and I kind of hate that a jury not liking you ends up factoring so much in a win.  My personal opinion.  I wish people who played harder got rewarded with a win more than people who simply didn't offend anyone.  (And YES, I understand that's not the game as it stands.)

In opposition to Hannah, Brett, and Sunday --- Will does bother me, though.  I just think he never has any true idea what's going on and seems to always get forgotten and carried.  He never seems to be orchestrating a vote or being part of one that matters.  This year, he is my goat.

Totally agree with this even all the way to Will being this season's goat.

[violet and green]

2 hours ago, azshadowwalker said:

What's more, we saw how nasty and angry Zeke is when he doesn't get his way after the Mari vote. Every time Jay or Taylor or any of the others who were labeled "entitled" lost a vote, they moved on. Any anger was confined to private confessionals. Publicly, they took the condescension and constant need to rub it in their faces with good sportsmanship. Jay has even congratulated his opposition. Zeke, Adam and Bret, on the other hand, lash out, get angry, and just flat out act like assholes. This isn't the first time Zeke has shown just how petty and dickish he is, and it's not the first person he has targeted. He's awful. 

That's not how I perceived or remember it. He was incredibly depressed to realise he was on the outs with his alliance and had been excluded along with Adam from the news re a change of vote and went off to lie down on the beach and take it in. Then Hannah came along and started to explain why she did what she did and he said not, now. And she started to explain some more, and he said, not now. And this went on ten or twelve times and Adam piped up, now is not a good time, let him recover and you can talk about it in the morning, and she started to explain again, and my god it went on and on, even after Adam said clearly not now.

I have no recall of Zeke being nasty or angry, just exasperated - and she was like a goddam mosquito. Bad timing, bad boundaries, and no real consideration for Zeke or Adam's feelings or polite requests to be left alone.

[Rowan]

Sucks for Jessica, but I feel like they all felt like the line was drawn. It was time to dance with the one that brought ya, and she did by sticking with David and Ken (who were sticking with Hanna). She gambled, and she lost. It's ballsy and stupid at the same time. 

I liked Michaela, but she pissed me off when she was bitchy with Hannah. And, now, Bret and Zeke are exposed for the whiny little bitches they are. "Aww, David, we are totally supportive of your nuerosis!", except when we are throwing that shit in your face.

Hannah is hard to watch, because it's just so freaking awkward to watch her struggle, but I hope she and David find a way to send Zeke's ass packing. 

[legaleagle53]

11 hours ago, piequinn35 said:

I was looking at Ken's chest all the time when he was chopping the coconuts :)

I was doing that when the camera panned from his chest down to his torso during the first immunity challenge.

[legaleagle53]

4 hours ago, Lingo said:

Although there is a novel situation I can think of where I don't know how it would be resolved, according to these rules. Imagine there are six people left. One wins immunity in the challenge. Then at TC, for some crazy reason, 3 other players all play immunity idols. That leaves only 2 players who can be voted for.  They vote and re-vote and it is a 3-3 tie. What happens next? No one is eligible to draw rocks!

It's not that novel, really.  It's why rocks were replaced by a fire-making challenge starting at Final 4 because at Final 4, rocks are mathematically impossible to pull off because, as in your scenario, there's no one left to draw rocks.  So under your scenario, the Final 4 rule would apply and there'd be a fire-making challenge instead of rocks.

[huahaha]

On 11/23/2016 at 7:16 PM, picklesprite said:

It would be lovely to see Sunday or Brett go, but they'd make good goats, yes?

Sunday and Brett are the ultimate pair of oxen. It appears anyone can ride them. I was shocked that they yoked themselves to Zeke directly after he voted off their last leader. Why not grab Will and Jay instead and split the tribe? Four is a voting bloc when the other two groups are three and three and you keep the plan to yourselves.

I was fine with Michelle and even Taylor for most of the game, but they are so unlikable as panel members. Gloating and grinning as if Jay is going to share any of the loot with them.

[hincandenza]

Hannah's inability to lie is beyond pathetic into the "awkward" stage.  She torpedoed Zeke's entire blindsiding because she couldn't simply agree with someone (and whoever said above it's because she was trying to have her cake and eat it too by straddling two alliances... well, if she'd successfully told a simple lie, Zeke might have gone home and been no threat at all).  She has consistently been one of the dumbest players- and in some ways, most childish/immature- this show has seen in a long time, and it's awkward to watch her on screen flailing about ineptly.

Zeke has kind of turned nasty, although not quite irredeemably so; I think I'm definitely Team David at this point, which... well, I'm as surprised as you are based on what I thought after episode 1.   A Ken/David finale would be pretty awesome.  A Zeke/Jay finale would... be less enjoyable.  At this point though, no one else besides those 4 really deserves to even be in the finale, based on what we've seen on screen.  Sunday is kind of a non-factor; Adam has been too chaotic; Hannah is laughably bad; and Will is barely on screen (but who knows, could play a role going forward).  

I hate the rock thing, but I get why it's there and that it's not a surprise at this point.  I however don't understand literally anyone here saying Jessica brought it on herself: all of the people could have switched to break the tie, why is it specifically on her to do so?  Because she's clairvoyant and knew she'd draw the rock?  What if it'd been Jay, or Brett, or Sunday- would Jessica still have been stupid?  I mean, had Brett gone home it'd have been karmically hilarious- but then Brett wouldn't have been on record said about himself "Brett you dummy it's your fault for not switching!".  However, he's a contestant; what are these posters' excuses?