OK...What's Next?

[fishcakes]

1 hour ago, Hanahope said:

Trump's tax plan is going to hurt a lot of middle class families.  He's increasing or keeping the same the tax rates on the lower percentages, but eliminating the personal exemption.  

His plan also eliminates the Head of Household filing status, which will significantly increase taxes on single parents even if the tax rate for their bracket doesn't change.

[Kromm]

The problem is that I think nothing's going to come to pass, because all of the places which could do something are scared of the unrest which will happen if they intervene.

They are ignoring the unrest which will happen if they don't, but they are fooling themselves about that a bit, I think.

Really we are out of time. If something was going to be done, I think the early steps would have happened before Obama welcomes Mr. Pumpkin into the White House, Hillary conceded, security clearances started to be granted, etc.

[Lantern7]

Agent Orange's "win" gets overturned, Hillary gets sworn in on the 20th, and promptly resigns on the 21st. We get Tim Kaine as president, and nobody is that happy. That might be the perfect end to a dreadful season.

[Kromm]

7 minutes ago, Lantern7 said:

Agent Orange's "win" gets overturned, Hillary gets sworn in on the 20th, and promptly resigns on the 21st. We get Tim Kaine as president, and nobody is that happy. That might be the perfect end to a dreadful season.

There are still people who think despite the show being put on now that Trump will do that and step aside for Gov. Pencesane. 

It's not as nutty an idea as it sounds, because it would explain the appointments we are seeing even better than Trump himself coming up with this shit.

[stillshimpy]

Part of the reason I will not participate in an Amazon boycott.   I know some will think that "Oh please, they're just trying to sell things...."  Yeah, sure, they're a business that's what they do but Amazon just gave Donald Trump not one hand, but two, with both middle fingers prominently displayed.   Not to mention all those nutjobs who are Islamphobic. 

Edited November 23, 2016 by stillshimpy

[fastiller]

1 hour ago, windsprints said:

Is there any agency outside of Hillary's camp who can call for an audit?

@windsprints - your previous message, linking to the article about the UN has me wondering and these other articles about the apparent "issues" with the election have me wondering about whether some international overseer isn't needed.

[windsprints]

Quote

@WINDSPRINTS - your previous message, linking to the article about the UN has me wondering and these other articles about the apparent "issues" with the election have me wondering about whether some international overseer isn't needed.

I'm more concerned that there was an "international overseer". There's many articles around with the idea that Russian could be responsible if there was any hacking.

[fastiller]

@windsprints - HA! Didn't think about the double-speak meaning.  You're so right.

[EyewatchTV211]

So....it looks like the Green Party has requested recounts in the controversial states:  https://www.facebook.com/GregPalastInvestigates/posts/10154744416772128

I'm annoyed at how she handled all the pre-election stuff, but she's right that the Democratic party has not stepped up when it needs to here.

[fastiller]

Interesting: Jill Stein prepares to request election recounts in battleground states

@VMepicgrl - snap! GMTA.

Edited November 23, 2016 by fastiller
VMepicgrl is too fast!

[EyewatchTV211]

So she needs funding support. Crowdfunding here we come?

[stillshimpy]

I just threw her some money which is not a turn of events I ever would have called but HELL FREAKING YEAH.  

Oh if only I had known how her coddling of conspiracy theorists would come back to hopefully help. 

[fastiller]

@stillshimpy - you know what would've helped even more? If she would've done like Sanders and stopped and told her supporters to get behind HRC.

[stillshimpy]

Don't mistake me, fastiller, I was just saying that finally, out of the shit fest that has been this election, it's nice that her presence on the ballot may help Clinton after all.   

But also, if there was election tampering ....and I honestly am pretty persuaded that there was....it was going to shake out this way anyway, you know?  If it was rigged then it was going to be rigged with or without Stein.  If it turns out that Clinton will get a recount without having to ask for it?  All the fucking better. 

 

ETA: Stein? Stien?  No clue, but bring on the recount. 

Edited November 23, 2016 by stillshimpy

[BookWoman56]

I understand why some people in the current administration, including Obama, don't want a recount or audit because they fear the backlash from voters if it turns out that HRC did in fact win those suspect states and so should get those electoral votes. There could well be riots in the streets.

But what I fear even more is that if there was some sort of weirdness going on with either absentee ballots or voting machines, or both, and we don't do the audit, then what is to stop the same thing happening in 2018 with the mid-term elections and then in 2020 again with the next presidential election? Since it's been pointed out already what specific things have made people suspicious, don't you think that next time around, anyone messing with the results might be a little more careful to make the results look normal, with no data anomalies?  A Republican-controlled Congress sure as hell isn't going to pass anything that would mandate tighter controls on the vote counting process, such as automatic audits of voting machine results, automatic audit when there is a big gap between results from voting precincts with paper ballots vs. those with electronic ballots, etc. I know there's been scuttlebutt for decades that JFK won in 1960 only through some stuffing of ballot boxes in a few key locations. But for the first time in my adult life, I am truly afraid that we may soon see the end of legitimate elections in this country, in which the results are reasonably reliable. Given that the Russians were able to hack into 10-20 state voter databases and the opinions of Snowden and other IT security analysts that it is relatively easy to hack into the voting machines and change the totals, there seems to be too much of a risk not to demand a recount/audit now. If this election was in fact rigged at least in a few swing states, then the same thing could happen again with fewer clues to tip anybody off. I don't want to go all conspiracy theorist or alarmist here, but as a country we need to investigate this, find out for sure if vote tampering did or did not occur, and then spend some time and money building serious firewalls around any state voter databases and upgrading voting machines to make them impossible (or at least extremely difficult) to hack. Voters, no matter what their political leaning, need to have confidence that votes are accurately counted and the totals reflect how people actually voted.

[stillshimpy]

Here's the thing:  It shouldn't solely be up to the candidate.   The voters have a right to a recount in this instance.   

Yes, it would cause unrest if Hillary Clinton actually won the presidential election.   While unfortunate, it may be necessary.  Otherwise, we are, as a nation, co-signing on the facts-don't-matter, your-vote-doesn't-really-matter line for now and for all time.  

If the Russians actually hacked our election, then we do not have a duly elected president and that needs to be known and rectified.   Or else we might as well admit we wipe our collective national noses on every principle of democracy. 

[windsprints]

Quote

Here's the thing:  It shouldn't solely be up to the candidate.   The voters have a right to a recount in this instance.

izzabella pointed out the DOJ is an option. The phone number and email are in the first post on this page. I've emailed. I've tried calling on and off but keep getting a busy signal. If you search #AuditTheVote on twitter there's many people calling/writing. IMO the DOJ calling for an audit is the better option than HRC doing it.

[dougfir]

Even if it doesn't change the outcome of the election, I'm willing to do whatever it takes to push for an audit/recount. Otherwise, our right to vote isn't worth the paper the ballots are printed on (in places that use paper ballots, that is).

I'm not a big Jill Stein fan but I'm glad she's calling for a recount and hope she doesn't back down.

[fireice13]

2 hours ago, Kromm said:

There are still people who think despite the show being put on now that Trump will do that and step aside for Gov. Pencesane. 

It's not as nutty an idea as it sounds, because it would explain the appointments we are seeing even better than Trump himself coming up with this shit.

That would also explain why Melania and Barron aren't moving into the White House.

[EyewatchTV211]

And now others are concerned that Stein is scamming. Awesome: https://twitter.com/JoyAnnReid/status/801544024930877440

[Lantern7]

What human nemeses would you equate with the "president-elect"? Off the top of my head, in no particular order: Mr. Potter, Biff Tannen, Randal Flagg (with an army of Trash Can Men), Frank Reynolds and Kylo Ren. For the latter, I fully support wearing shirts with Rey on them in protest.

ETA: Forgot about Charles Foster Kane. Seriously, if people knew a damaged plutocrat as president was a bad idea in 1939, then why did what happened happen? I'm still a little partial to Flagg. Can you imagine a sunstroked Giuliani driving a nuke into Las Vegas? "MY LIFE FOR YOOOOOOOOOOU!!!!"

[stillshimpy]

izzabella pointed out the DOJ is an option.

I already called and left a message with the DOJ last week.  I'm leaving no stone unturned on this one.  

[windsprints]

[Padma]

2 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

What human nemeses would you equate with the "president-elect"? Off the top of my head, in no particular order: Mr. Potter, Biff Tannen, Randal Flagg (with an army of Trash Can Men), Frank Reynolds and Kylo Ren. For the latter, I fully support wearing shirts with Rey on them in protest.

ETA: Forgot about Charles Foster Kane. Seriously, if people knew a damaged plutocrat as president was a bad idea in 1939, then why did what happened happen? I'm still a little partial to Flagg. Can you imagine a sunstroked Giuliani driving a nuke into Las Vegas? "MY LIFE FOR YOOOOOOOOOOU!!!!"

You know, Trump says his favorite movie is Citizen Kane and no one ever asks him why. I would love to know (though I'd take Kane over Trump as president in a heartbeat).

re: recount.  When your election has been sabotaged by a foreign power's hacking of private email and the DNC (verified by 17 government agencies) then every effort should be made to remove any doubt about the final results when they don't conform -in any way- to the predicted polling results.

I agree Hillary shouldn't ask for it, but Obama--for all his skills--is a wimp. The DOJ won't ask. Maybe the DNC will.

Edited November 24, 2016 by Padma

[Duke Silver]

I'm not from Texas, and have only been to Dallas a few times, Austin twice, San Antonio once & Padre Island while in college....isn't the Austin area (pretty much the only "liberal" part of the state?  I don't mean just politics....but socially/artistically/etc.  Anyway, in these times, I hope more decent folks can find it within themselves to be kind to those who need it most:

https://twitter.com/Harris_Zafar/status/799314275185496064

Quote

Many Americans are showing true nature of this country. This card was left at @RoundRockMosque. Dialogue & respect!

 

[Nidratime]

What's next? Well, I'm watching the movie "Race" tonight on cable to get me "in the proper mindset" for the new Trump Administration. It's the story of Jesse Owens, the African American, who competed in the 1936 Olympics in Berlin and blew away the racist, ignorant, horror show that was Hitler's Germany. Just gettin' myself used to that type of environment.

[Duke Silver]

https://twitter.com/Anthony/status/801589564775272449

Quote

Dear @realDonaldTrump, this is how you repudiate your White Supremacist fans.

 

[khyber]

McMullin has been a strong voice in the wilderness. I'm amazed that Mormons voted for someone who wants to restrict certain religions. Sooner or later they will come for the Mormons too. My fundie step-sister's church teaches that Mormons are a cult.

[ari333]

McMullin needs to feel some serious love on social media and otherwise. It only takes one voice to get the ball rolling in the right direction. Kudos.

[Duke Silver]

https://twitter.com/paulkrugman/status/801473411943923712

Quote

A number of liberal writers, me included, seem to have gotten this notice yesterday.

 

 

[Nidratime]

McMullin sounds like a man who needs me to twitter follow him.

[windsprints]

13 minutes ago, Duke Silver said:

https://twitter.com/paulkrugman/status/801473411943923712

 

 

Wow. I hope this gets widely reported.

Now following McMullin.

Edited November 24, 2016 by windsprints

[molshoop]

4 hours ago, dougfir said:

I'm not a big Jill Stein fan but I'm glad she's calling for a recount and hope she doesn't back down.

They're half way to the goal of 2.5 million.

[potatoradio]

Attention, Susan Sarandon -

Want to put up any of your money to support your candidate's efforts or don't you care about election now? 

[ebk57]

Great opinion piece by Charles Blow in the NYT about not normalizing the situation

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/23/opinion/no-trump-we-cant-just-get-along.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=opinion-c-col-left-region&region=opinion-c-col-left-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-left-region

[theredhead77]

2 hours ago, Duke Silver said:

https://twitter.com/paulkrugman/status/801473411943923712

 

 

Wow. This needs to be at the top of every news hour.

Can someone post the DoJ info again or link the post? It's certain to be user error but I'm having trouble finding it and having it fresh in our faces will help come Friday (though government offices are closed).

On Monday I'm going to call MI and WI representatives as a citizen and request a recount along with the DoJ.

Edited November 24, 2016 by theredhead77

[Lantern7]

I channel the Doctor. I forgot to add the part about listening to the opposition, as opposed to merely sneering at them, even though the Doctor seldom reasons with the Daleks. Plan A was to write from the perspective of You-Know-Who, but I don't think if I can be that thin-skinned and unaware of irony.

[anyanka323]

Stein has formally requested a recount in Wisconsin per the Wisconsin State Journal.  I would include a link, but it's behind a paywall.  Given that there are multiple counties with statistics that raise some questions, it's justified. One is Sauk County, northwest of Madison, which has gone blue since 2004, even in midterm elections, but historically was more of a purple county.  It's now more blue thanks to increasing numbers of state workers living there thanks to lower property taxes than in Dane County.  Another is Outagamie County, in northeast Wisconsin, which is a strongly Republican leaning area.  The fact there are problems in both the Madison area and near Green Bay shows that there is logical and sound reasoning for a recount. 

[theredhead77]

I hope those recounts happen. I'm so disappointed that H. Clinton conceded so quickly. I understand not wanting to drag it out Gore v Bush style but with record numbers of early and absentee voting it was worth waiting a bit. My concern is a lot of the ballots causing the increase are from the Western seaboard (CA, OR, WA) and the numbers won't move much in the states that it matters.

[Dancingjaneway]

So NOW Jill Stein wants to do something about the Donald?! In the words of Dorothy Zbornak "Too wittle, too waite". Also just because they ask for a recount doesn't mean they are going to get it. This is all just a part of her scheme to run for president again in 2020. I mean what looks better on a resume than one woman taking on the electoral college. That's the type of shit candidates like her dream of when they are trying to court voters. 

[Padma]

48 minutes ago, Dancingjaneway said:

So NOW Jill Stein wants to do something about the Donald?! In the words of Dorothy Zbornak "Too wittle, too waite". Also just because they ask for a recount doesn't mean they are going to get it. This is all just a part of her scheme to run for president again in 2020. I mean what looks better on a resume than one woman taking on the electoral college. That's the type of shit candidates like her dream of when they are trying to court voters. 

Well, I was skeptical earlier in the day that (1) she could never raise the money in time and (2) would just pocket whatever she did raise. But it seems (hopefully) that I was wrong on both counts. So now I'm incredibly excited about what she's doing and I hope it's really going to happen.  If it does, I'm more than happy to give her credit on her resume.

Stein is the perfect person to appeal this as it does not taint Hillary or the Democratic Party.  It's also very legitimate, based on the computer information and, especially, on the months of Russian hacking to throw our election (which was seen as completely unsuccessful prior to Election Day's "upset".)

I will be grateful for a recount either way. Because it seems fishy to me and--since we're stuck with Trump anyway--I'd like to know if its really because a surprising number of people voted for him in 3 long-time blue states and not from cheating and fraud.

If there IS cheating and fraud, of course, that actually would be awesome to find out, instead of just always wondering as with Ohio in 2004. And if it causes a constitutional crisis, well, so be it. We're supposed to be a democracy, not a country where Russia--or anyone else--can subvert the will of the voters because they think they can control one candidate more than the other.

If Stein can do this, she really should have our thanks.

[Padma]

1 hour ago, theredhead77 said:

I hope those recounts happen. I'm so disappointed that H. Clinton conceded so quickly. I understand not wanting to drag it out Gore v Bush style but with record numbers of early and absentee voting it was worth waiting a bit. My concern is a lot of the ballots causing the increase are from the Western seaboard (CA, OR, WA) and the numbers won't move much in the states that it matters.

I was disappointed, too. Andrea Mitchell today said the reason was that she got a call from Obama right after Podesta made his announcement that they weren't saying anything that night. He told her "It's over" and urged her to concede.  I haven't heard that elsewhere, but Mitchell's pretty reliable, and it sounds like something he'd say. He always gives up too easily, imo. He'd be a great diplomat but really isn't much of a fighter.  It's often very annoying in a leader, much as I admire him as a person.

[ruby24]

Wow, really? I disagree with him if he did that. I also think she conceded too fast. Look at this popular vote spread! This is insanity. The people chose her. Democrats don't fight back enough, including Obama, as much as I love him. She should have put up more of a fight, pushed the disconnect between the actual vote and the electoral college. She herself suggested abolishing it after the 2000 election- she was right then too.

I don't know that I'm saying she shouldn't have conceded at all, but don't go down without a fight like this. Make a stink. Show off how many more people chose her over him and how inherently wrong this is. Because it is. What's happening right now is just wrong.

And you know very well that had the situation been reversed, Republicans would have never shut up about this. So Dems shouldn't either. Make it loud and clear that SHE won the vote and the people chose her, not him. I just don't think Democrats should have been forced to be gracious given the consequences of a mistake like this. I still don't think enough people KNOW that she has 2 million more votes than him. So make everybody know and never forget it. It would crush his sense of legitimacy in the eyes of the public.

Edited November 24, 2016 by ruby24

[Keepitmoving]

This is why I'm ready to clean house with every one of these democrats, including independent Bernie, bye, just bye to them all.  Obama and Clinton are the only two who I can put up with in terms of them trying to save/ honor the norms of our democracy. But I don't know how much more of Obama playing pomp and circumstance I can take. But the rest of them I want to see and hear defiance, that's all the democrats can do for me. Instead Bernie is going on his "I told you so" tour with the likes of Nina annoying ass Turner and her same old fucking song and dance that um Hillary wasn't really listening to the working class, girl bye. I don't want to see any democrats on my screen who aren't bitching like Michael Moore. Because while he speaks for those white working class, the brother NEVER, I mean NEVER passes up an opportunity to point out that Hillary won the popular vote , by how much she won, and millions more in this country voted for her values. I'd like him to lead the fucking party. A real  rough and tough progressive from fucked up poisoned water supply Michigan. His attitude and fight is what I want in the party I support.  They are elitist, worrying about appearances, and that's their fucking problem, which is really our problem, because they don't suffer in the end and still get paid with our tax dollars. They're still trying to play by rules that their opponents aren't playing by, they just look weak, pathetic, stupid. Like, find me another party for the people but with a backbone kind of pathetic, because I can't stand them anymore.

Anyway, happy turkey day.

Edited November 24, 2016 by Keepitmoving

[Shannon L.]

6 hours ago, Padma said:

Well, I was skeptical earlier in the day that (1) she could never raise the money in time and (2) would just pocket whatever she did raise. But it seems (hopefully) that I was wrong on both counts. So now I'm incredibly excited about what she's doing and I hope it's really going to happen.  If it does, I'm more than happy to give her credit on her resume.

The only problem I can see is that the 2 million is just to start the process.  I read somewhere last night that it takes closer to 6-7 million by the time it's all said and done. 

[Danny Franks]

14 minutes ago, Shannon L. said:

The only problem I can see is that the 2 million is just to start the process.  I read somewhere last night that it takes closer to 6-7 million by the time it's all said and done. 

She's up to $3 million now, and it's gone up thirty grand in the last ten minutes or so. People want to grab onto any bit of hope they can, to escape from a Trump presidency.

Trouble is, would a simple recount reveal any of the voting hacks that Stein is using as the basis of her complaint? If electronic totals have been altered, then you need to do more than just count them again.

And even if these three states were shown to have been called wrong... what happens? Do they just strip Trump's president-elect status and give it to Clinton? Seems like Trump's campaign would take that to court, probably demand recounts in states where Clinton narrowly won, probably demand further recounts in the first three states. Hey, if all that means Obama has to stay in office for another few months, it might be worth it.

[MulletorHater]

11 hours ago, ebk57 said:

Great opinion piece by Charles Blow in the NYT about not normalizing the situation

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/23/opinion/no-trump-we-cant-just-get-along.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=opinion-c-col-left-region&region=opinion-c-col-left-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-left-region

Yes, yes--a thousand times YES!

This is the strongest and most unequivocal op-ed piece I've read to date against the normalization of the Creature from the Orange Lagoon.

He ran a cynical, divisive, malicious and despicable campaign.  He openly appealed to the racists in the base and encouraged them to intimidate Black and Latino voters.  He invited Russia to hack Hillary's emails for his own benefit.  He riled up the Second Amendment lovers to go after Hillary's Supreme Court picks.  And those are just the highlights.

Now he wants to fix his bird mouth to ask us to unify for the sake of the country.  Meanwhile he picks Steve Bannon to be his special advisor while whining about Bannon's little hurt feelings.  Fuck him.  He's like the cheating husband who gaslights his wife, talks a good game during marriage counseling and then steps out on his wife the very next day.  And he gets away with it.  Why?  Because he's the ultimate salesman who calibrates his message for whatever audience he's in front of.  

I will NEVER accept him!  Ever.  #NEVERTrump!  #NotMyPresident

[Danny Franks]

6 minutes ago, MulletorHater said:

 Fuck him.  He's like the cheating husband who gaslights his wife, talks a good game during marriage counseling and then steps out on his wife the very next day.  And he gets away with it.  Why?  Because he's the ultimate salesman who calibrates his message for whatever audience he's in front of.  

Wait, are you talking about Trump or his loyal lackey, Gingrich? Because I'm pretty sure Gingrich did exactly what you're saying, here. One of those utterly brazen hypocrites who seem to be unerringly attracted to right wing politics.

I've said before about Trump that, if he thought being the most openly pro-immigration, pro-choice, pro-LGBTQ rights, anti-gun candidate in history would have won him the same adulation he has now, he'd have done it in a heartbeat. He has no moral centre at all. Even the vilest elements of the Republican party have something that they hold dear, even if it's the supremacy of white people or that the poor should be left to starve in the gutter. Trump, I don't think, even has that. He's empty.

He's a fucking Twilight Zone episode, come to life.

[Padma]

16 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

Wait, are you talking about Trump or his loyal lackey, Gingrich? Because I'm pretty sure Gingrich did exactly what you're saying, here. One of those utterly brazen hypocrites who seem to be unerringly attracted to right wing politics.

I've said before about Trump that, if he thought being the most openly pro-immigration, pro-choice, pro-LGBTQ rights, anti-gun candidate in history would have won him the same adulation he has now, he'd have done it in a heartbeat. He has no moral centre at all. Even the vilest elements of the Republican party have something that they hold dear, even if it's the supremacy of white people or that the poor should be left to starve in the gutter. Trump, I don't think, even has that. He's empty.

He's a fucking Twilight Zone episode, come to life.

He -does- seem like a Twilight Zone nightmare, for real. Or like that "Butterfly Effect" where some time traveler steps on a butterfly and instead of a democracy with an inclusive President Clinton, you come back to the present and its rising fascism under Trump.  Sadly, fact is far scarier than fiction at the moment.

I agree that he has no moral center. And, yes, he's a liar and dissembles on a dime. His only real commitment, imo, is to advancing himself--getting more money and attention--even negative attention, nothing's ever enough. But I think he's thrown his lot in with the sycophants around him--a horrible bunch--and their views are his views. Whoever manipulates him the best--through flattery--will have his ear on policy. I think this will mean Giuliani and Flynn, sadly.

It was almost funny to see Kellyanne feverishly tweeting on Thanksgiving morning against Romney. I'm guessing that's because Trump's mind is made up and she's spinning it on Donald's behalf before he announces that it's Rudy. (Or, please, at least Corker instead). He probably intended it symbolically from the beginning and is upset that so many like the idea of Romney as SOS.  How to bail? Have a lackey like KAC set it up.

And yay to Jill Stein again! I'm ridiculously excited about the recount. The $2.4 million she raised yesterday was enough to petition in Wis. and Penn and part of it for Michigan. The 6+ million total is apparently for the Mich fees and for the cost of lawyers.  Anyway, whatever the results of a recount are, we can't possibly be worse off than we are now.  If there was cheating we will (hopefully) know. If there wasn't, it would help to accept the results (which so far are so unacceptable).  I'm not afraid of a constitutional crisis. As far as I'm concerned, we already have one with Trump.

[TheGreenKnight]

3 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

Trouble is, would a simple recount reveal any of the voting hacks that Stein is using as the basis of her complaint? If electronic totals have been altered, then you need to do more than just count them again.

This is my thought, too. What's really wanted is an investigation to make certain there was no outside interference, but I'm not sure a simple recount is going to get that?