S01.E07: The Best Washing Machine in the World

[HeyThere83]

I see the show as being more simple than it is complex. And plenty instances where realism didn't seem to be the goal. Thus far it seems the implication is that Rebecca is the reason for whatever issue(s) her children have. Not even that it's both parents, but Rebecca in particular. Jack was made to be dead and it makes me wonder if it was to help further put it all on Rebecca. Not only that, but she is now married to Miguel. Yes, how you are raised helps to shape who you become, but ultimately how you live your life as an adult does not just boil down to that and I hope that in the future the show will address that.

It's not about good vs. evil for me and I definitely don't need or want that in the writing for shows like these. I can only go based on what has been presented and that's how I've formed my opinion of Kevin. I don't think things are equal when it comes to Randall/Kevin and I don't see a reason why it needs to be. People have different personalities, different needs, different character traits. Some kids are nice, some are not so nice, some are gentle, some are aggressive, some are introverts, some are extroverts. And they can be this way for a variety of reasons. It just so happens that when watching this show in present day and in flashbacks that Kevin has been shown to be the most jerky, mean, self-centered of the three. Regardless of what the reasons for it are that is just what the character said and did. Parents can attempt to treat their children all equal but if one of them is great at math and another is having a difficult time, equal time spent in terms of homework help probably won't do any good for the child that is struggling. It's not outside the realm of possibilities that Kevin was a child that would consider any attention he received to never be adequate. Self-involved children are out there, and children can be narcissists as well.

[ShadowFacts]

We haven't talked too much about the secretary who got what I felt was a little inappropriate in Miguel's office.  I thought she was acting in a way to get one of the two men jealous, or trying to provoke something, but I couldn't tell which one.  Or maybe it was harmless, but I feel like they wouldn't be showing us something for the hell of it that didn't mean anything.  I have the feeling that Jack doesn't stray, nor Rebecca, because if that happened I doubt she would be still wearing that necklace.  So I wonder what was the point of it. 

[HeyThere83]

7 hours ago, Jx223 said:

 Also, I wonder how many times Kevin may have wished he was an only child. Kids with siblings will wish that sometimes but it wouldn't surprise me if he wished that a whole lot. I am looking forward to seeing more of how the siblings interact with each other as children. I want to see how different dynamics play out in their relationships with each other. Kevin and Kate are shown to be close now but I wonder if they were quite as close as kids.

She got more attention for her issues as well and I wonder if he ever showed her even a smidge of the resentment he showed Randall. Kate and Randall seem to get along well enough and I wonder if Kevin ever tried to undermine their relationship in the past. I wonder if he ever got jealous of any bond that Randall/Kate may have had. I also wonder if Randall felt wistful/insecure about Kevin's/Kate's bond, especially because Kevin kept rejecting him.

I am looking forward to seeing how the show explores what else happened with the kids as they grew up and reveals more about the types of relationships they had during that time and after Jack died.

I could absolutely see him wishing he was an only child. Also, sometimes a sibling will form a close bond with another one to try to get under the skin of or make jealous one that is left out. I could see Kevin doing that with Kate even if he really didn't want to be all that close with her.

1 minute ago, ShadowFacts said:

We haven't talked too much about the secretary who got what I felt was a little inappropriate in Miguel's office.  I thought she was acting in a way to get one of the two men jealous, or trying to provoke something, but I couldn't tell which one.  Or maybe it was harmless, but I feel like they wouldn't be showing us something for the hell of it that didn't mean anything.  I have the feeling that Jack doesn't stray, nor Rebecca, because if that happened I doubt she would be still wearing that necklace.  So I wonder what was the point of it. 

I thought it was to show the audience that Miguel is sleazy and is now married to Rebecca. To show that he is interested in other women, and to make us wonder how exactly he got with Rebecca.

[izabella]

6 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

We haven't talked too much about the secretary who got what I felt was a little inappropriate in Miguel's office.  I thought she was acting in a way to get one of the two men jealous, or trying to provoke something, but I couldn't tell which one.  Or maybe it was harmless, but I feel like they wouldn't be showing us something for the hell of it that didn't mean anything.  I have the feeling that Jack doesn't stray, nor Rebecca, because if that happened I doubt she would be still wearing that necklace.  So I wonder what was the point of it. 

To me, it looked like she was overtly Flirty McFlirtypants with both of them, and Miguel was giving it right back.  Jack didn't bite, but he noticed Miguel leering at McFlirtypants and gave him the "what are you doing, man?" eye, and Miguel mostly shrugged but didn't seem to feel bad about it.  So I think Miguel hasn't yet cheated, but he's open to it and he eventually will, either with McFlirtypants or someone else.

Do we know for sure if Miguel is still married in that scene?  Maybe he's already divorced?  In that case, he's being a sleeze.  In both cases, he's the boss and shouldn't be leering at his secretary, and she shouldn't be so Flirty McFlritypants.

[SlackerInc]

On 11/17/2016 at 3:37 PM, ShadowFacts said:

I don't know if it has been speculated only, or that we were given something more concrete, but William said to Rebecca "you're looking well", which could mean since the one time I saw you 36 years ago, or since I last saw you x years ago.  

I don't think it has been 100% established for certain, but my impression is that they initially wanted us to think they have been in contact periodically over the years, and then the flashback in a subsequent episode made it more likely that it was just the once.

14 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

This is what I appreciate about this show: it's so complex that we all see different perspectives. I clearly see Rebecca's poor mishandling of Kevin and I also see Kevin as a mean bully toward Randall as a result of his mother's parenting, and maybe even Jack's. I love that Rebecca is not a perfect mother, even after all these years. I love that Kevin is selfish and a jerk, just like Randall can be arrogant and competitive. I think our own life experiences can influence the way we watch this show, and that not one character on this show is good or bad. They're all...in the middle. Like I've pointed out, it makes more of an impact than Parenthood, where all the characters got away with everything because they were the Bravermans. 

Basically, I think this show is trying to strip down the concepts of good and bad and show that these characters are people, who are complex and have more layers than just a bad bully or a saint. They all have experiences, like we do, that influence their choices as they grow. 

So, you see Kevin as a bully. Sure, he can be, but we can see that his experiences have shaped him to be who he is, figurative warts and all. We see why Randall might be so competitive and wanting to be perfect all of the time, with being an adopted black son in a white household. Rebecca's parenting might have been influenced by her own childhood. Who really knows? But it's nice to see that each character has reasons for being the way they are. 

Oh man, I was so with you until (and after) the dig on Parenthood.  To me, this is a clear strength of both shows.  I pointed this out in an earlier episode thread, but again: two great examples are Kristina and Crosby.  I found Kristina a super uptight buzzkill, and I was totally down with Crosby.  But I still knew Kristina wasn't actually malevolent; and there were many, many posters at TWOP who liked Kristina and found Crosby to be an obnoxious man-child.  (You can throw Jasmine into this as well: many people took her side in her disputes with Crosby, but I was always on his.)  And while sometimes this happens on shows because many viewers just refuse to go along with the showrunners' intent in terms of which characters are supposed to be the admirable protagonists (cf. Jack on LOST), in both the cases of Parenthood and This is Us, I feel like it's just a case of presenting complex personalities that will rub some people the right way and other people the wrong way (and still others, somewhere in between).

Edited November 19, 2016 by SlackerInc
Italicized show names

[NutMeg]

I've read most of the thread yesterday and one thing that struck me were some posts attributing Jack's "memory loss" to illness. You may well have a point, but my interpretation was very different while watching - and still is, for that matter, though I'm intrigued by this other possibility.

I didn't see it as memory loss but as distraction, the consequence of not listening as he used to, not being as involved with the family and with his wife as he used to. That, coupled with the fact that he had to let go of his professional goal/dream/ambition of creating his own business and seems to be working in a job he seems at best neutral about, made me think he was possible slightly depressed, or just blah", and therefore more disengaged than he used to be. Or that he was in a rut, and ripe for a mid life crisis (which I hope doesn't involve cheating!).

Another thing that I meant to say in earlier episodes threads but kept forgetting is that I see no problem in wearing a piece of jewellery you really love even after splitting up from the one that offered it to you. I wouldn't wear a wedding band but I'd keep wearing earrings, pendants, etc., if I really loved them. Actually, I do wear some pieces of jewellery that were offered to me by a previous boyfriend and my ex husband, because they give me joy in and of themselves and/or they are memories of the past more than just of one person. Maybe that's just me though :)

[Eeksquire]

Quote

I didn't see it as memory loss but as distraction, the consequence of not listening as he used to, not being as involved with the family and with his wife as he used to.

I guess it's a consequence of the way this show has been set up, but it's not just Jack that had a memory lapse this episode.  Rebecca also forgot that Jack had told her that he was closing the big (something) deal.  We've been set up to wonder what happened to Jack, but I think small lapses like the ones shown here this week are just natural consequences of getting older and having your life get increasingly complicated.

[ShadowFacts]

2 hours ago, NutMeg said:

I've read most of the thread yesterday and one thing that struck me were some posts attributing Jack's "memory loss" to illness. You may well have a point, but my interpretation was very different while watching - and still is, for that matter, though I'm intrigued by this other possibility.

I didn't see it as memory loss but as distraction, the consequence of not listening as he used to, not being as involved with the family and with his wife as he used to. That, coupled with the fact that he had to let go of his professional goal/dream/ambition of creating his own business and seems to be working in a job he seems at best neutral about, made me think he was possible slightly depressed, or just blah", and therefore more disengaged than he used to be. Or that he was in a rut, and ripe for a mid life crisis (which I hope doesn't involve cheating!).

Another thing that I meant to say in earlier episodes threads but kept forgetting is that I see no problem in wearing a piece of jewellery you really love even after splitting up from the one that offered it to you. I wouldn't wear a wedding band but I'd keep wearing earrings, pendants, etc., if I really loved them. Actually, I do wear some pieces of jewellery that were offered to me by a previous boyfriend and my ex husband, because they give me joy in and of themselves and/or they are memories of the past more than just of one person. Maybe that's just me though :)

It could absolutely be that he's not as tuned in to details because life happens.  Or it could be that they showed us 3 or 4 examples in one episode for some other reason.  Likewise, I agree that in real life you might wear something that came from a former relationship, but I think there may be a bigger message here, because it wasn't just a random gift but a pretty meaningful one that she continues to wear many years later, that she might not if things went very sour.   I'm thinking that this could be a tightly written show like Breaking Bad where every detail has a reason, but it's too early to tell yet.  And of course it's nothing like BB. 

[JudyObscure]

Has anyone else noticed the similarities with this show and Anne Tyler's latest best seller, A Spool of Blue Thread.  It's a family saga, with present day grown children and their mother, all flashing back  to when they were children.  In the book, the parents adopt a boy who is the same age as their son (I think the boys  were about five.)  The couple had just intended to watch the little boy for a few days after his father had suddenly died -- his mother had abandoned him years before -- but the woman saw the little guy, sitting on the bed, looking sad and his thin little neck broke her heart so he stayed.  The biological son always resented this new brother for stealing his place in the family (there was a sister, too.)  After they were all grown the adopted boy finds out that the mother who had abandoned him had been in touch with his adopted mother all along, but the two mothers had both agreed that the one who had left him was  not capable of raising him, being a drug addict.  The young man felt angry and betrayed by his adoptive mother for not telling him that his real mother was alive.

I'm wondering if some of the ideas for this show came from the book or it's just coincidence.

[Tiger]

It looks like the creators of this show pulled a J.K. Rowling.

[sasha206]

13 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

We haven't talked too much about the secretary who got what I felt was a little inappropriate in Miguel's office.  I thought she was acting in a way to get one of the two men jealous, or trying to provoke something, but I couldn't tell which one.  Or maybe it was harmless, but I feel like they wouldn't be showing us something for the hell of it that didn't mean anything.  I have the feeling that Jack doesn't stray, nor Rebecca, because if that happened I doubt she would be still wearing that necklace.  So I wonder what was the point of it. 

I wonder if there will be a twist in that they have shown Jack in one scene with Miguel (first episode?) in which I thought it was setting up his possible straying (he seemed frustrated in his marriage wih Miguel talking about how great Rebecca is).  Maybe the twist will be band leader and Rebecca will have the affair?  And that sends Jack into a drinking frenzy?

[dargosmydaddy]

8 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

Has anyone else noticed the similarities with this show and Anne Tyler's latest best seller, A Spool of Blue Thread.  It's a family saga, with present day grown children and their mother, all flashing back  to when they were children.  In the book, the parents adopt a boy who is the same age as their son (I think the boys  were about five.)  The couple had just intended to watch the little boy for a few days after his father had suddenly died -- his mother had abandoned him years before -- but the woman saw the little guy, sitting on the bed, looking sad and his thin little neck broke her heart so he stayed.  The biological son always resented this new brother for stealing his place in the family (there was a sister, too.)  After they were all grown the adopted boy finds out that the mother who had abandoned him had been in touch with his adopted mother all along, but the two mothers had both agreed that the one who had left him was  not capable of raising him, being a drug addict.  The young man felt angry and betrayed by his adoptive mother for not telling him that his real mother was alive.

I'm wondering if some of the ideas for this show came from the book or it's just coincidence.

It's been awhile since I read the book, but I'm pretty sure the adopted son was at least a few years younger (and possibly more than that) than the biological son. And there were two older sisters. And the biological mom came to dinner all the time (the adoptive mom was a social worker or something, and frequently brought down-and-out people to dinner, so everyone just thought of this one as weird Mrs. whoever), so she watched the son grow up, even though the son had no clue it was his bio-mom until after the woman had died.

I can definitely see parallels between the book and the show, but probably just coincidence.

[hippielamb]

On Thursday, November 17, 2016 at 1:28 PM, SlackerInc said:

I'm surprised almost everyone talking about the 2 a.m. conflict is arguing that Rebecca should have told Randall to go work on his homework in the living room or kitchen or wherever.  How about telling him to go to bed?  Teenagers need more sleep than any other age group except infants, and 2 a.m. is way too late to be up given how early school starts!  And I want to emphasize that (1) I am a night owl who is almost always still up at 2 a.m. and (2) I am not an especially strict parent.  But that is just non-negotiable: my kids need their sleep, so they are going to be in bed with the lights out at that time (if they can't sleep, they can stare into the darkness).

Either Randall erred by not working on his homework earlier, or the school is assigning way more than he can possibly finish in a reasonable amount of time.  In neither case should he be allowed to do it at 2 a.m. or anywhere close to that time.

I was thinking the same thing. I used to stay up late as a teenager and it was a battle because it violated the rules. Plus, if a kid is staying up that late to finish homework, he is either doing too much extracurriculars or the homework is too much. I'm still firmly on Randall's side in his conflicts with Kevin though. 

I love Beth. I realized in this episode that she's the one I am most like. Growing up in a large family with no space or quiet. Makes me wonder if their overly large house comes from that. I still can relate to Randall's outsiderness and wanting to know his father. But Beth, oh, I get her. Shocked that she hasn't thrown Kevin out of the house yet. Surprised (but not really) that he didn't leave when they asked weeks ago. 

14 hours ago, SlackerInc said:

I don't think it has been 100% established for certain, but my impression is that they initially wanted us to think they have been in contact periodically over the years, and then the flashback in a subsequent episode made it more likely that it was just the once.

Oh man, I was so with you until (and after) the dig on Parenthood.  To me, this is a clear strength of both shows.  I pointed this out in an earlier episode thread, but again: two great examples are Kristina and Crosby.  I found Kristina a super uptight buzzkill, and I was totally down with Crosby.  But I still knew Kristina wasn't actually malevolent; and there were many, many posters at TWOP who liked Kristina and found Crosby to be an obnoxious man-child.  (You can throw Jasmine into this as well: many people took her side in her disputes with Crosby, but I was always on his.)  And while sometimes this happens on shows because many viewers just refuse to go along with the showrunners' intent in terms of which characters are supposed to be the admirable protagonists (cf. Jack on LOST), in both the cases of Parenthood and This is Us, I feel like it's just a case of presenting complex personalities that will rub some people the right way and other people the wrong way (and still others, somewhere in between).

Another Crosby fan here.

Er, back to This is Us. It's interesting that certain character types bug us, while others we love. Of course, we view things from our own life experiences and some of the things Kevin has said/done hits a nerve (at least it does for me). Same with Toby. I am mostly indifferent to him, though I like that he enjoys life. While other viewers really do not like him one bit. 

[saber5055]

All this talk about which one is going to have an affair. Have we been shown any indication that this happens? All I know for sure is that Jack dies, Rebecca remarries.

[theatremouse]

19 minutes ago, saber5055 said:

All this talk about which one is going to have an affair. Have we been shown any indication that this happens?

What I assume people are going off of is: A) the body language between Rebecca and band-dude and B) the ambiguity of the scene with Jack, Miguel and flirty secretary. Both scenes had some pretty standard TV "something might be coming down this pike" fare. The show is not necessarily going in the affair(s) direction, but if it does it will not be shocking because they did show enough to raise suspicions.

Edited November 20, 2016 by theatremouse

[Lady Calypso]

15 hours ago, SlackerInc said:

Oh man, I was so with you until (and after) the dig on Parenthood.  To me, this is a clear strength of both shows.  I pointed this out in an earlier episode thread, but again: two great examples are Kristina and Crosby.  I found Kristina a super uptight buzzkill, and I was totally down with Crosby.  But I still knew Kristina wasn't actually malevolent; and there were many, many posters at TWOP who liked Kristina and found Crosby to be an obnoxious man-child.  (You can throw Jasmine into this as well: many people took her side in her disputes with Crosby, but I was always on his.)  And while sometimes this happens on shows because many viewers just refuse to go along with the showrunners' intent in terms of which characters are supposed to be the admirable protagonists (cf. Jack on LOST), in both the cases of Parenthood and This is Us, I feel like it's just a case of presenting complex personalities that will rub some people the right way and other people the wrong way (and still others, somewhere in between).

I know, I'm sorry for the dig! I was just personally sick of 90% of the characters by the end. Actually, I found myself loving Crosby as the series went on and he ended up being my favourite by the final season. I just found Parenthood horribly biased because I felt the message they tried to deliver was that the Bravermans were always right and good and how dare anyone rain on their parade? Kristina/Adam/Max in particular, whom I did not like at all and hated that almost all of the heavy storylines went to them. But that's obviously off topic here! I think it's because I tend to go opposite of the showrunners' clear favourites but on this show, I enjoy the possible clear favourites of Randall and Rebecca, as well as almost all of the other characters (Toby's growing on me, but Olivia's minor appearances have made me dislike her). 

But then again, it's season 1. I feel confident that there'll be another season, and maybe season 2 will have me hating characters. Who knows? But right now, I enjoy all the characters. 

[AlabasterShakes]

I've been told this is the best show that I'm not watching more times than I care to remember. So, I finally took the plunge the past couple of weeks and caught up on the latest episode earlier today.

That said. Toby. I...

I think I'm supposed to like him. But, I find him to be annoying as hell. Boundaries, which Toby seems to lack, are big with me, and habitual line-steppers get no love. I legit cannot stand him. Between the football game and the food, I wish Kate would cut bait and move on.

Beth, though. Love.

"When are you leaving?"

"...put they asses to bed and make us some brownies."

"Oh hell nah Old Man!"

Seriously. I love her.

Mandy Jameka Moore. Ugh! Just had to shack up with Miguel's plotting ass. He may be a lovely man, and I could be completely wrong, but I kinda hate him and his gout.

I'm all in now and totally ready to have my heart ripped out when the inevitable happens.

Edited November 20, 2016 by AlabasterShakes

[HeyThere83]

31 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

I know, I'm sorry for the dig! I was just personally sick of 90% of the characters by the end. Actually, I found myself loving Crosby as the series went on and he ended up being my favourite by the final season. I just found Parenthood horribly biased because I felt the message they tried to deliver was that the Bravermans were always right and good and how dare anyone rain on their parade? Kristina/Adam/Max in particular, whom I did not like at all and hated that almost all of the heavy storylines went to them. But that's obviously off topic here! I think it's because I tend to go opposite of the showrunners' clear favourites but on this show, I enjoy the possible clear favourites of Randall and Rebecca, as well as almost all of the other characters (Toby's growing on me, but Olivia's minor appearances have made me dislike her). 

But then again, it's season 1. I feel confident that there'll be another season, and maybe season 2 will have me hating characters. Who knows? But right now, I enjoy all the characters. 

Just curious....what makes you think Rebecca is a favorite?

[MaryPatShelby]

On 11/15/2016 at 10:43 PM, Cardie said:

I may have mistaken which time period this was said in, but didn't Jack say he had forgotten to kiss Rebecca for the first time in 18 years the day of the big game? And weren't they married six years before having the triplets? Those kids should be 12 and yet they seem to be in high school. Color me confused.

I believe Jack said 15, but my closed captioning said 18.  My head hurts trying to do the math with each time jump, but would 15 years make more sense?

Count me in with those wanting Kate to get out to the east coast.  The show got us invested in Kate and Kevin's relationship at the beginning, and now we don't get that.  IMHO it's a flaw in the storytelling to not have the siblings in the same general area.

Edited November 20, 2016 by MaryPatShelby

[Lady Calypso]

2 hours ago, HeyThere83 said:

Just curious....what makes you think Rebecca is a favorite?

I'm not quite sure if I'm even correct, but I think it's because of her significant screen time in the flashbacks. I mean, at least if we compare it to Jack's. That's not to say that Jack isn't getting his moments because he is. I just see a lot more being explored with Rebecca than with Jack. It makes sense, since she is alive in the present day timeline so there's more to explore there, but it's just an observation I've noticed. 

[SueB]

I want Kate on the East Coast as well, but I suspect this time apart is good for both.  Kevin needed to take some responsibility for his own life and Kate needed to focus on herself.  But I'd like them to at least be on the phone.  I miss that.

Another painful episode and yet very satisfying.  My heart bleed for each of the Big 3 for different reasons.  And I really need Rebecca to be more sympathetic.  Right now, I struggle a little bit with that.  I think we'll get there right now but she really lost a lot of my sympathy with how she handled the Randall/Kevin situation.  If it was a one-time deal, no big.  But it's definitely a pattern.  

Edited November 20, 2016 by SueB

[Lady Calypso]

41 minutes ago, SueB said:

I want Kate on the East Coast as well, but I suspect this time apart is good for both.  Kevin needed to take some responsibility for his own life and Kate needed to focus on herself.  But I'd like them to at least be on the phone.  I miss that.

I'm stunned that we haven't had one scene with Kevin/Kate talking on the phone since his first episode in New York. I feel deprived of Kate with her siblings. 

[Tiger]

6 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

I'm stunned that we haven't had one scene with Kevin/Kate talking on the phone since his first episode in New York. I feel deprived of Kate with her siblings. 

It's odd that we've been told Kevin & Kate always had a strong connection, but thus far they havent been spoken in the flashbacks.  

[Lady Calypso]

13 minutes ago, Tiger said:

It's odd that we've been told Kevin & Kate always had a strong connection, but thus far they havent been spoken in the flashbacks.  

It's why I don't think they did have a strong connection their entire lives. Maybe in the "twin" sense, even despite them being originally triplets, but I think their actual connection might have grown around the time of Jack's death, maybe a little earlier. And it's why Randall's "joke" about Kate being paid to see Kevin's performances might have stung Kevin a little if he wasn't distracted by The Manny poster. 

[Tiger]

32 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

It's why I don't think they did have a strong connection their entire lives. Maybe in the "twin" sense, even despite them being originally triplets, but I think their actual connection might have grown around the time of Jack's death, maybe a little earlier. And it's why Randall's "joke" about Kate being paid to see Kevin's performances might have stung Kevin a little if he wasn't distracted by The Manny poster. 

But in the episode Kevin left for NY Kate told Toby that when they were kids Kevin got hurt and she felt the injury.

And then Kevin's flight landing in NY literally jolted Kate in LA.

[Lady Calypso]

13 minutes ago, Tiger said:

But in the episode Kevin left for NY Kate told Toby that when they were kids Kevin got hurt and she felt the injury.

And then Kevin's flight landing in NY literally jolted Kate in LA.

Yeah, that's why I specified their twin connection. Kevin and Kate share a psychic connection of sorts, but their actual connection in terms of their relationship seem to not have been established until later. That's what I meant! So they feel each other but they didn't seem to really bond past that until later on. 

[JudyObscure]

15 hours ago, dargosmydaddy said:

I can definitely see parallels between the book and the show, but probably just coincidence.

Yes, you're right about everything, it's been a while since I read it, too.  I'm not screaming plagiarism or anything, but the jealousy from the bio boy toward the adopted one seems so similar, I just wondered if it might have inspired the show's writer.  It is an interesting and rather heartbreaking concept.

[theatremouse]

13 hours ago, MaryPatShelby said:

I believe Jack said 15, but my closed captioning said 18.  My head hurts trying to do the math with each time jump, but would 15 years make more sense?

Someone mentioned the producer said they were originally 12/13 in this episode and then switched to 15. There have been other instances of stuff changed in final editing of the show yet cc seemed to reflect before that. So given how the writers are futzing with their own timeline I think we more than usual need to just sort of stop doing the math on these types of statements made by characters, because rather than being solid clues, apparently they're much more fluid. So for anything to make sense it has to be taken in more of a "we said X years, we mean a long time"; the exact subtraction can't be important to the plot since they're changing it constantly and have the continuity issues to go with it.

It's really bugging my OCD.

Edited November 20, 2016 by theatremouse

[MaiSoCalled]

Quote

 

Count me in with those wanting Kate to get out to the east coast.  The show got us invested in Kate and Kevin's relationship at the beginning, and now we don't get that.  IMHO it's a flaw in the storytelling to not have the siblings in the same general area.

I wonder how much of this is to force Kevin and Randall into a relationship. We've discussed the idea of Kate being a peace keeper. She's also a safety net - the brothers don't need each other as long as she's arrange. I would suspect that once Kevin and Randal are in a good place, we'll see them interact with Kate.

[ClareWalks]

1 hour ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

But I'm not because Kate's not at a dieting stage where a plateau while eating perfectly is really likely.  I've never been 400 lbs. but I've been to lots of WW meetings and in my experience, people don't really plateau while still that overweight.

That's a good point and that's why it rings a bit false for me. If she were really eating super healthy and low calorie, she wouldn't be plateauing yet, unless she has serious metabolic problems (which, who knows? We as viewers certainly don't). I find myself frustrated on Kate's behalf, but not for the reasons the writers WANT me to be.

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, ClareWalks said:

That's a good point and that's why it rings a bit false for me. If she were really eating super healthy and low calorie, she wouldn't be plateauing yet, unless she has serious metabolic problems (which, who knows? We as viewers certainly don't). I find myself frustrated on Kate's behalf, but not for the reasons the writers WANT me to be.

Well, not to get too gross, but there are other things that can happen while eating super healthy that would make it seem like the weight loss isn't happening. My digestive system practically shuts down when eating kale and some types of whole grain, high fiber foods, making it seem as if I am not losing weight (this happens even if they're introduced in small amounts). I also have a tendency to retain water, on occasion. If my weigh-in coincides with those times, it doesn't look good.

I also have several distinct plateaus at specific weights. It's happened often enough that I know exactly where those plateaus are and know to keep the faith when nothing seems to be happening. Weight loss experiences, as with so many things, vary widely and are dependent on all kinds of variables. It's not (pun intended) one size fits all.

Edited November 20, 2016 by Clanstarling

[ClareWalks]

Just now, Clanstarling said:

I also have several distinct plateaus at specific weights. It's happened often enough that I know exactly where those plateaus are and know to keep the faith when nothing seems to be happening. Weight loss experiences, as with so many things, vary widely and are dependent on all kinds of variables. It's not (pun intended) one size fits all.

I am aware that not all weight-loss journeys are the same. I am in the fitness industry. But usually unless someone has a medical problem, they have an initial drop in weight upon starting a healthy eating and exercise regimen (especially if they start out with 100+ pounds to lose). All this show has shown us is Kate being frustrated because she is losing nothing or almost nothing.

[Empress1]

On 11/16/2016 at 1:01 PM, SlackerInc said:

Both parents were not aged up enough. They should have been early 50s and mid-40s, and they just did not look it.  That was almost halfway timewise from the pilot (or other flashbacks to when the kids were babies) to when we saw Rebecca come to visit in the senior citizen makeup, but she didn't actually look like she'd aged even a tenth of the way.  And Jack could have been a well-preserved 45, maybe, but over 50?  There's only one Brad Pitt.

Brad Pitt looks his age in person. Saw him and Angelina eating dinner together once. He's craggy. I used to work with someone who'd worked retail at Barney's and she'd waited on him, and she said the same thing. But the aging makeup wasn't great here, I agree. It didn't look like they'd added any lines to either of their faces or grayed Jack's hair (you can buy that Rebecca would color her hair, as many women do). And Jack wouldn't be well-preserved, would he, with the drinking? I read an article about Milo's body on this show - he clearly works out, as do most people in his line of work, and the article was pointing out that that would be an anachronism in the 80s. Going to the gym, it noted, is fairly new.

9 minutes ago, ClareWalks said:

I am aware that not all weight-loss journeys are the same. I am in the fitness industry. But usually unless someone has a medical problem, they have an initial drop in weight upon starting a healthy eating and exercise regimen (especially if they start out with 100+ pounds to lose). All this show has shown us is Kate being frustrated because she is losing nothing or almost nothing.

I had the same thought. Typically people lose the most weight when they start out and have the most to lose and then things slow down. If she was really eating the way it looked like she was eating (which would be a big drop in calories if she'd been previously eating enough to maintain 400 pounds) and getting even a little exercise, the drop should have been lower. I'd have been mad as hell!

My heart broke for Randall when he came down to the basement with a peace offering and Kevin was just ... mean to him. Just no other word for it - mean. But then I cracked the hell up when they were fighting in the street and Seth Meyers strolled by, because ... what? And then "Let's go, I'm still black" and they break out running ... this show is so good, I swear. The entire edibles scene was gold. "These are work brownies." And then when Kevin noted "Someone's high" and Beth sat up straight and tried to look sober but ended up looking nuts, I fell out.

[wilnil]

20 minutes ago, Empress1 said:

And Jack wouldn't be well-preserved, would he, with the drinking? 

I don't think Jack is being shown as an alcoholic, just as someone who likes a drink (as does Rebecca) and can get carried away with it when he's frustrated. We haven't seen any indication that he's continued drinking too much since he promised Rebecca he'd dial it back in the circa-1988 flashback.

[Clanstarling]

4 hours ago, Empress1 said:

I had the same thought. Typically people lose the most weight when they start out and have the most to lose and then things slow down. If she was really eating the way it looked like she was eating (which would be a big drop in calories if she'd been previously eating enough to maintain 400 pounds) and getting even a little exercise, the drop should have been lower. I'd have been mad as hell!

Which, of course, she was. But, I'm not sure she's right at the beginning. We've seen her in at least 4 meetings. Assuming that's one a week (which since Kevin's gone through working on the Manny, quitting the Manny, going to the East Coast and auditioning, and is now in rehearsals, is not a stretch to think it's been 4 weeks) - she's already passed the honeymoon period where you have the rapid and impressive loss, and gotten down into the more mundane regular weight loss - like 1.5 lbs a week.

On the other hand, the show hasn't depicted that part of the journey - who knows. It's the long haul that's the tough part, and maybe they're more interested in showing that. As much as I can relate to Kate's weight problems, I am in agreement that she was much  more interesting in the episode where she showed she was an efficient professional and would like to see her connect with her family.

[Emily Thrace]

8 hours ago, ClareWalks said:

That's a good point and that's why it rings a bit false for me. If she were really eating super healthy and low calorie, she wouldn't be plateauing yet, unless she has serious metabolic problems (which, who knows? We as viewers certainly don't). I find myself frustrated on Kate's behalf, but not for the reasons the writers WANT me to be.

Its more likely that she does. Or at least has some physiological reasons for her weight like a thyroid or hormonal issue. Since this has been an issue since her childhood and not just a case of overeating as an adult it more likely that there is something enabling the weight gain. Especially since neither of her parents show a genetic pre-disposition to being heavy. Binge eating probably doesn't help but given how this has always been an issue even as a kid, suggests Kate has some kind of issue with how her body stores or processes food.

[KaveDweller]

10 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

Re. Kate's diet storyline-- I get what they're trying to do... Make all us women who've dieted and run into those same obstacles nod in emphatic agreement.  But I'm not because Kate's not at a dieting stage where a plateau while eating perfectly is really likely.  I've never been 400 lbs. but I've been to lots of WW meetings and in my experience, people don't really plateau while still that overweight.  Or if she did lose 1 lb. one week, she'd lose 4 the weeks before and after, or something like that, so the monthly average comes out fine. 

The other thing with Kate's diet, is we saw in the pilot that she was a bigger overeater. She had to put sticky notes on her birthday cake to stop herself from eating it before the party. And she had lots of other junk food in the house in that episode too. In my experience when someone drastically cuts down the calories they are eating, they are going to shed pounds, at least at first. 

If they had a line about how she'd had a great start and was frustrated at plateauing so soon, it would make more sense. Or if they just wanted to show her being frustrated that Toby was losing weight faster, it could also work. Some people do just have faster metabolisms and lose weight faster. But if Kate has been sticking to a good diet for however much time has passed, she should have dropped more than a pound or two.

[SlackerInc]

Right, and no matter what kind of metabolism someone has, no one can evade the laws of thermodynamics.  You take an obese person with the most slowed-down metabolism possible, thyroid issues, whatever, and leave them in a remote cabin with no food for the winter, and they are going to be a lot skinnier when you come back.  Your body and brain require fuel at all times, regardless of your metabolism.  And if it's not coming in through eating, it will be found somewhere else: in your fat and muscle tissues.

16 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I also don't commiserate with her food envy.  Wait til Kate has kids and has to blow on the McDonalds fries and hand them into the back seat for her hungry kid.  (Not that anyone 'has to' feed their kids fries but we working moms do what we gotta do sometimes and fries aren't evil in moderation.)  But a lot of us do prepare and serve non-diet food for our non-dieting family everyday, while sticking to our own diets.  It's not exactly torture.  Anyone with special dietary needs learns to do it. 

Anyone?  Not me.  As I noted upthread, I have to use a separate fridge and kitchen cabinets from my wife and kids or I'm sunk.  I know that's a highly unusual thing to do, but it's also very rare for someone to have kept as much weight off for as long as I have.  So I think most people in that situation end up caving.

Edited November 21, 2016 by SlackerInc
Removed and deleted a redundant redundancy

[Court]

Every weight loss journey is different. Her drastic eating changes all at once could cause her body to think she is starving herself. So, it shuts down and holds on to it.

I've never lost a bunch at once. It's always a pound or two. 

For some, the food envy is torture. For me, it absolutely is. I've done it but it is incredibly difficult to watch everyone eat what you'd rather be eating.

Edited November 21, 2016 by Court

[jhlipton]

I'm going to keep out of the diet/surgery/fat discussions, because they get me too upset.

OMG (as the kids say) -- this is my sister and my mom.  When my dad died, my mom told me that my sister said "I wish it was you instead!" ( I've no idea if this is true.) Their relationship had never been great -- it completely dissolved (to the point of not speaking to each other) after that.

On 11/16/2016 at 10:17 AM, Jx223 said:

It seems like Rebecca doesn't want to be around Kevin and I think she is harboring negative feelings towards him. I wonder if Kevin said some really hurtful/hateful things to her right after Jack died and she never fully recovered from that type of vitriol. I could see Kevin spinning further out of control if Jack died when they were teens and lashing out at Rebecca in a very harsh way.type of behavior when she was at the lowest point of her life. I suspect something similar could have happened with Kate as well.

 

On 11/17/2016 at 7:44 PM, Randomosity said:

Once Upon a Time is particularly good at this as well. It really does help make things more realistic.

About the only thing it does well!

On 11/18/2016 at 8:23 PM, HeyThere83 said:

I see the show as being more simple than it is complex. And plenty instances where realism didn't seem to be the goal.

The whole "Randal at football" thing.  If Kevin's team is good enough for a scout to come out (he wouldn't if they were a losing team), Kevin would definitely have someone blocking Randal.  (and of course, it's pure contrivance that one plays offense and the other plays defense (or that Randal goes for the sack instead of playing a lane) just so they have to face each other.

On 11/19/2016 at 8:05 AM, Eeksquire said:

Rebecca also forgot that Jack had told her that he was closing the big (something) deal. 

I'm not sure which one forgot, actually.  Yes, Jack was certain he told her, but if his memory was impaired for any reason, he might have "remembered" telling her when he didn't.

[SlackerInc]

7 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I'm totally with you on the laws of thermodynamics.  

That's great on your weight loss but like you said, it's kind of rare to need a separate kitchen.  I'm curious... can you also not eat with your family?  If so, do you never go to restaurants or other's homes for dinner?  Would seeing someone eat a high calorie food cause you to binge?

5 hours ago, jhlipton said:

If Kevin's team is good enough for a scout to come out (he wouldn't if they were a losing team), Kevin would definitely have someone blocking Randal.

Ugh, how did those quote boxes get stuck together? Well, I will number my responses then. 

1. I eat with my family when they are eating the things I can eat, or on special occasions.

I go eat at restaurants or friends' houses occasionally, but I don't even try to be "good" when I do.  I know myself well enough to know I don't have anywhere near that much willpower.  Hell, it's a minor crisis if a Taco Bell web ad pops up!  LOL  And that doesn't have aromas.

Basically, if I followed regular social norms, I would become as big as Kate, or get divorced and become a hermit.  There is really no other option for me, so I really felt for her when she sat and watched Toby eat that dessert (and I am envious of all of you who think it looked gross).

Which reminds me: although I think they focus too much on Kate's weight-loss journey, something I really appreciate on this show is that they portray seriously obese people as just being very tempted by foods made with processed refined carbs and such, and finding it very easy to eat large quantities of them before getting full, instead of "emotional eating" or whatever other psychological hangup.  Those things may exist for some people, but they are not what I relate to at all.

 

2. I disagree. Good teams give up sacks too.   And a "max protect" scheme would most likely not leave any receivers open, which would mean Kevin is not getting sacked but is also not completing passes--and that is not helpful for a scout watching. 

[Johnny Dollar]

I did not like Beth taking such pleasure in leaving that voice mail for Rebecca. There seems to be some jealousy and resentment in trying to live up to her husband's seemingly perfect mother. I could see this causing friction in their marriage. 

Young Kevin was a real prick, but current Kevin is such a likeable guy that it's hard to reconcile the two personalities. A prickish teenager seems to always turn into a prickish adult. I would like to see them explore the dynamic between the two in their early adult years. 

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, Johnny Dollar said:

I did not like Beth taking such pleasure in leaving that voice mail for Rebecca.

I didn't see that at all. WhatI saw was a woman who is fiercely loyal to her husband and righteously angry, with a good dose of worry mixed in. Not being a confrontational person myself, I wouldn't have handled it that way, but I would have felt the same.

[Sake614]

 I'm a chocoholic but even I thought that dessert was gross. It was marshmallow I think, that gave it that gooey consistency, but there was just nothing appealing about it to me. Waaaay too big and messy!

[luna1122]

I thought the dessert looked like a big smore'sy mess, which COULD look and be delicious, but Toby and the way he was glopping it into this mouth....that made it gross for me.

[ClareWalks]

I don't even know what that dessert was, but it looked absolutely enormous, to the point where it was probably listed on the menu as being shareable. Which makes it even MORE fucked up that he ordered it. It would be like going to Rainforest Cafe with someone on a diet and ordering the Volcano, which is meant for 4 people.

[ShadowFacts]

40 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

All the righteous indignation at Rebecca leaves a bad taste in my mouth.  The details of Randall's adoption are none of Beth's business, in my opinion.  I don't know a lot about adoption but I believe adoptive parents arrange closed adoptions all the time, in which they know the identity of the birth parent(s) but the child never does, and the birth parent doesn't get to know the kid.  That seems to be pretty much the case here.  It's Rebecca's choice and her right to specify the details and is probably the most normal sort of adoption.  I guess the difference is Rebecca never revealed to Randall that she knew anything about his birth parents but she had very valid reasons.    And it was easy enough for him to find William as an adult so what's the big deal?  If he didn't choose to seek him out until this late in his adult life, that's his own fault.  

I wouldn't have handled it that way, either.  But I think the validity of Rebecca's reasons for carrying on a lie are in question for me.  I think the big deal is she could have been straightforward with Randall once he wasn't a little kid anymore.  No reason to keep that secret into adulthood, from my perspective.  We don't yet know that he did not choose to seek his biological parents out for the first time when we saw him do it, but even if that was his first attempt, getting it from the horse's mouth rather than a detective would be preferable to me.  The way it looks now is that she was possibly dodging a hard conversation, when coming out with it would have been better for Randall, especially if she knew he was longing for this information, which we have yet to see. 

[Sake614]

6 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

, especially if she knew he was longing for this information, which we have yet to see. 

And this is key because we don't know if he expressed any desire to find his bio parents before. So far it appears to have been a decision he reached just this year and hadn't told anyone, including Beth.

[ShadowFacts]

50 minutes ago, Sake614 said:

And this is key because we don't know if he expressed any desire to find his bio parents before. So far it appears to have been a decision he reached just this year and hadn't told anyone, including Beth.

It will be interesting to see when he does show an interest.  I doubt he first wondered about his origins at age 36.   Maybe Rebecca had a don't ask, don't tell scenario, and he never asked.  Or maybe part of the reason for Beth's fury is that she knew that he did ask, and she didn't tell.  It is clear that Rebecca doesn't want him to know that she knew, to this day, so she still doesn't want to face it, though she must have feared it from the advent of the internet age.  A sticky wicket.

[chocolatine]

3 hours ago, ClareWalks said:

I don't even know what that dessert was, but it looked absolutely enormous, to the point where it was probably listed on the menu as being shareable. Which makes it even MORE fucked up that he ordered it. It would be like going to Rainforest Cafe with someone on a diet and ordering the Volcano, which is meant for 4 people.

As much as I hate to defend Toby, he was perfectly happy not to order any dessert, but Kate repeatedly insisted that he should, so she had no right to be upset when he eventually did.