S01.E04: The Pool

[mtlchick]

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I never liked Milo on Gilmore Girls (I credit the character for that), but his Jack is making me wonder what I've been missing.

I never watched Gilmore Girls (I tried once, hated it) but Milo here is making up for all the time I wasted on Heroes wondering "You're supposed to be the main draw? Uh...how?"

 

And because it cannot be said enough, Sterling is AMAZING.  I now must watch The People Vs OJ because his speech to William at the store floored me.  And then I laughed when he said "now try on the damn slim cut flat front chinos." 

Edited October 19, 2016 by mtlchick

[PRgal]

I had to go to an event last night, so I missed last night's show and saw it online this morning.  I can see why Kevin went into acting.  It's his way of getting the attention that he never got as a kid.  Kate may have been a bit immature at the pool, but I really think the girls were fat shaming her - it was a "thing" back then too, just not as bad - at least I don't think so (I was never a big kid, so I can't give a personal perspective).  I mean, we passed notes back then, so things were more...private than posting things online. 

On William and the $100 pants.  Definitely a sign of #classprivilege.  Someone who is an exec by 36 likely considers $100 pants very budget friendly.

[Enigma X]

Just now, mtlchick said:

I never watched Gilmore Girls (I tried once, hated it) but Milo here is making up for all the time I wasted on Heroes wondering "You're supposed to be the main draw? Uh...how?"

Haha. I was a fan of Milo's on Heroes until I wasn't a fan of Heroes at all.

The Piersons seem like real people unlike so many other TV families. Flaws and all. I am including the now adult Pierson kids in that. This is why this show keeps my interest.

And I almost drowned like Kevin and there was no line.

[Biggie B]

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I don't like Toby and am not "determined"not to like him. Why I don't like him has very little to do with Kate. If he were a real person with the same make a joke out of everything, life of the party, and always on personality, I would dislike him or her too.

I feel the same way. I simply don't like Toby and would not want to spend time around him. His personality is simply off-putting to me. Sure, perhaps if I were his co-worker and I had to spend time with him, I might come to find something about him that was palatable. But right now, from what I've seen of him, I don't like him. It has nothing to do with Kate.

I was impressed that a bunch of 8 year old girls knew how to spell "embarrassing" or whatever form of the word they used in their terrible napkin note. I often have to rely on spell check to get that one right.

I don't really like Rebecca, I have to say. I know her intentions are good but...I don't know, I can't warm up to her. The actress is doing splendidly, though! As is the fellow who plays Jack, I've never seen or heard of him before.

So I suppose that Kevin and the British actress are bound to end up together. *yawn* Not interested in that aspect of the story. Still, if her character serves to give Kevin a reality check, I'm all for it. I can only imagine how hard it must have stung her to find out that Kevin was hired only for his name recognition and to get butts in the seats.

Can't add anything more to the well-deserved praise for the Randall/William/Beth storyline and actors. They're simply sublime and for me, the absolute heart of this show. So far, they have not put a foot out place. But I do look forward to seeing Randall, Kevin, and Kate together face to face as the current day adults that they are.

[Guest]

One thing that really struck me last night is how it is so hard to know if you're making the right parenting decisions. I don't think there is any question that Jack and Rebecca love their kids and want to do what is best for them. But it is so hard. Rebecca's solution is for Kate to hide her weight whereas Jack wants her to be comfortable in her own skin.  Both want for her to feel comfortable and not be made fun of, but they have totally different approaches.  Just like an earlier episode where Rebecca wanted Kate only to eat fruit for breakfast and Jack overruled her.

I think Kevin is being set up to be the kid with no problems so he gets ignored. But as we see from adult Kevin, no obvious problems doesn't translate to no problems.  He suffers from lack of attention.  Kate gets the focus because they are worried about her weight and how other people will treat her. Randall gets focus because he is a different race and so they want to make sure he doesn't feel too different or get treated badly. That leaves Kevin.

[ShadowFacts]

17 minutes ago, kili said:

Kevin really is transparent in that family. He gets his toy stolen and his brother gets a compliment for finishing the game. He tries to interact with the parents and gets ignored. He's the one whose objections about going to the pool are dismissed. He's the one who can't swim well ("Just go in the shallow end and Randall can stay with you") and in the water and they give him not one iota of attention? When Randall goes missing, he gets yelled at for not keeping a better eye on Randall. Wasn't Randall the one who should be watching him? 

Rebecca and Jack should have been watching the three of them, all the time.  In a crowded pool, with one kid not a confident swimmer, you don't assign another kid to watch your kid.  That was about the only quibble I had with this episode.  Rebecca's comment about there being 3 of them and 2 of us was self-aware, but she didn't apply that from the get-go.  Jack mentioning that there was no beer in the cooler, that he's on the wagon -- trouble ahead.  Why make a mention of that unless it's going to play a part in future episodes. 

1 hour ago, Happytobehere said:

Kate is beyond insecure, she is imbalanced.  It's bad enough she cyber-stalked Toby's ex-wife, she upped the anti to physical stalking.  I can't imagine how this job thing is going to play out.

I may have a different view of stalking, but looking up someone on the internet, seeing their social media and their own websites, is not cyber-stalking and not necessarily ominous.  People put their stuff out there to be seen.  Going to the store was a step in the direction of stalking, but there was no bullying, threatening, or intent to do any harm.  Applying for the job was goofy, but she didn't plan that, either, she had no idea the place was hiring nor that she would look like someone wanting a job in that shop.  She's not going to be working there, aside from Toby's reaction, she needs more than a minimum wage job which most retail jobs start out with.  Kate shouldn't have gone as far as she did, she had already seen the ex, then researched her, that should have been the end of it, but I don't think she's unhinged. 

As for Toby's reaction, understandable.  However, we only have his side of the divorce story.  Maybe she was a horrible cheater, maybe not so simple.  They greeted each other pretty warmly at the restaurant.  That could have been mere civility.  Perhaps he suffered greatly as he said, and gained 95 pounds in a year, but I don't know if the ex is 100% to blame for that. 

[ClareWalks]

31 minutes ago, mtlchick said:

And because it cannot be said enough, Sterling is AMAZING.  I now must watch The People Vs OJ because his speech to William at the store floored me.  And then I laughed when he said "now try on the damn slim cut flat front chinos."

His delivery was perfect, and the fact that he got out that tongue-twister of a line was impressive in itself. I'd have required 10 takes just to not flub the pronunciation.

[ZuluQueenOfDwarves]

The mean girls drew a pig on their note to Kate, it was definitely fat-bullying. Earlier in the episode Jack said something about her weight being baby fat and she was too young to have to worry about bullying for being heavy and I just groaned inwardly because I knew what was coming. 

[ChromaKelly]

I liked this episode much more than the first three.

So much to say ,as basically my family is this one. I have biological twins and an adopted black son. One of my daughters is kind of the "Kevin" in that she gets overlooked as I focus so much on the other two's issues. Although, she doesn't seem to want the spotlight and to be noticed. I really saw myself in that Rubik's cube exchange. My son is super smart and talented and I know he overshadows the girls at times. I am guilty of doing things like Rebecca did in that scene.
The child actor of Kevin nailed it in his "where's Kevin? Oh he's dead" line.  The writers get praise too because that was such an 8 year old thing to say. I feel a little more invested in Kevin after tonight's episode, although he still came off as a total douche in the audition. That playwright - screenwriter line. Ouch!
Kate - yeah... not feeling you right now. The Googling of the ex, yeah I'll give that a pass. The in-person stuff? Nope. Still don't like Toby though.
Randall - I could do an entire show just about him and his family. I am SO glad Rebecca went back to the black mother. I was afraid the show was going to go "love is enough". And I'm glad to hear "ashy" get addressed in a prim time, major network show! Things are going to get ugly when Randall finds out his mom kept William's information a secret. I know adoption was generally closed back then, but she could have at least given it to him when he was an adult. Or kept tabs so she knew when he was clean. I also was glad to see things like respectability politics and growing up in racial isolation addressed. Although, it's interesting that Randall grew up in isolation and is now raising his daughters that way. I know, it's different in that they are in a black family.

[Lady Calypso]

3 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I know that Kate is one of the main characters so some people favor her and are determined to dislike Toby, but I cannot believe anyone thinks that he was harsh and should have been sympathetic toward Kate. She behaved like a freaking nutjob.  She  stalked the man's ex-wife and got a job under false pretenses. What she did was unhinged, deceptive and cruel. If someone had done that to her, most of the people here would lose it. Frankly, Toby wasn't harsh enough. If anything he was way too kind and understanding, getting over his anger too quickly. He should have turfed her out the door and told her to go see a psychologist. Seriously, Toby can do better.

I'm not determined to dislike Toby; in fact, I wish that I did like him more. But there have been moments from his character that have made me feel unsettled about him. I'm sure he's a genuinely good guy and we've seen that he cares a lot for Kate. I certainly didn't want to insinuate that I'm fully on Kate's side in the stalking, because I'm not. I feel embarrassed that I even have to point out that I think Kate's stalking was wrong and uncalled for. However, the point I'm trying to make is about Toby. He knows that Kate is a very insecure woman about her weight. Now it's been basically said that Toby's weight gain was due to his divorce. Was he overweight in the past? We don't know that yet. But right now, we know that his 95 pound weight gain was more recent than Kate's struggle all her life. 

I feel for Toby and his story, but Kate had no way of knowing his own struggles. I appreciate that they brought them to the forefront. But I just found him too harsh in his yelling and calling her a nutjob. It's a personal thing for me. Kate's insecurities have taken over her life, and he knows that. I'm glad it worked out by the end of the scene, but the fact that Kate has to tell him every episode that she has these issues and they are not going to go away is just ridiculous. The looking her up is not being a nutjob either. Going through with an unplanned interview? Definitely taking it too far. But I think in these modern days, Facebook Stalking is too common, whether it's with a prospective employer/employee, a new relationship, or new people entering your life. It's too easy to do that in order to find out about a person. I have been guilty in looking up new friends on Facebook and other social media platforms. 

1 hour ago, kili said:

I actually don't think the problem "Samantha" had with Kate was her weight. "Samantha" and friend were at the pool trying to look cool and older than they are. Kate was goofing around like the little kid she is and wearing a "Care Bear" bikini (before that was ironic). There is an age where suddenly kids start acting cool and an immature friend acting like a super model and waving madly in her Care Bear bikini is the opposite of cool. It was Rebecca who kept insisting that Kate wear a T-shirt. It is Rebecca who isn't comfortable with Kate's weight.

 

Actually, it was. Sure, Kate was acting more childish and I can see why those girls might not want to hang around her, but it definitely had something to do with her weight. They drew a picture of a pig's face on the piece of paper. 

29 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

Rebecca and Jack should have been watching the three of them, all the time.  In a crowded pool, with one kid not a confident swimmer, you don't assign another kid to watch your kid.  That was about the only quibble I had with this episode.  Rebecca's comment about there being 3 of them and 2 of us was self-aware, but she didn't apply that from the get-go.  Jack mentioning that there was no beer in the cooler, that he's on the wagon -- trouble ahead.  Why make a mention of that unless it's going to play a part in future episodes. 

I agree. I think what's interesting about Rebecca/Jack's ways of parenting is that they mean well for their kids, but they definitely have some work to do in that department. I appreciate that Rebecca handles Kate's weight issues wrong. It shows her flaws as a human being. Her giving Kate fruit while the boys have cereal, and now with her wanting Kate to put a shirt on to not embarrass herself is just something that really shows her struggles as a parent. Meanwhile, Jack goes the opposite way to try to compensate for Rebecca's parenting and he tries to make Kate feel good about herself, no matter what. It's not to say that Jack's a better parent or that Rebecca's a bad parent. Rebecca is clearly trying hard to make Randall feel included in the family, but it's still years in progress. But both of them still have a ways to go, and that's ok. It just leaves Kevin out because he is probably the child that didn't need the parenting that Kate and Randall need, at least at the point in the flashbacks. Which makes me wonder how Kevin was like as a teenager. It could really go either way for him. 

[kili]

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The mean girls drew a pig on their note to Kate, it was definitely fat-bullying.

I wasn't sure it was a pig. I thought it might be a badly executed Care Bear. It was still bullying.

[Lady Calypso]

Also, what I noted is that Randall's daughters (I swear I'll know their names eventually) called William "Grandpa" after three weeks of knowing him. So I guess them calling Miguel "Grandpa" doesn't necessarily mean that him and Rebecca have been together/married for years, like I initially thought. 

[Arcadiasw]

I hope Kevin actually listens to Maine and take a class. He can still do that and work on the play. I hope he seriously commit to strengthening his acting skills. Until he does something that makes him more famous than the Manny, he needs to get used to be being noticed on the street for Manny and saying the famous catchphrase. Also, Kevin, you’re 36. Stop with the excuses and don’t be late for a job. Doesn’t matter if you are in a new city. There’s a reason for Taxis and Uber. How long does Kevin plan on staying with Randall? It didn’t sound as if he was only staying the night. I wonder if Kevin will interact with older Rebecca and Miguel.

Pool lady and Rebecca are a good example that first impressions can be wrong. Rebecca made the right choice going back to Pool Lady but she was right to be upset with Pool Lady’s condescending attitude. Since Pool lady made it known she knew who Rebecca was, she could’ve went to Rebecca to let her know where Randall was. It is a pool and any parent would panic if their child is out of their sight. Rebecca would’ve been fine with Randall playing with other black kids, and while the kids played Pool lady could explain about the razor bumps, the ash, and anything else Rebecca needed to know in raising a black child.

I’ve been wary of Toby but if Kate doesn't get control of her insecurities, I say, “Run, Toby. Run!” Yes, Kate is insecure but that was extreme. Kate should’ve asked about the ex but I think she would’ve researched her anyway and still see the ex in person because of her insecurities. If Kate didn't turn down the job, it would be a matter of time before Toby’s ex find out about her, and if I were Toby’s ex, I would check out Kate on social media just as Kate did to her.

The white audience laughing during Snow White was cringe worthy and sad. It seems only Randall picked up on that. Did Beth and William?

[Jillybean]

Episode 4 Postmortem from Dan Fogelman

This is mildly spoilerish, not giving anything away but hinting at future plot points/character developments.

I recognized Toby's ex, played by Natalia Cigliuti, from Raising the Bar.  

I was sort of relieved about Kate's note. I had read in a previous interview with Fogelman that we would find out something had happened to Kate to ruin her confidence, and that could have gone in a much darker direction.  Mean girls suck, but many of us have had to deal with them.

Edited October 19, 2016 by Jillybean

[bybrandy]

29 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

The looking her up is not being a nutjob either. Going through with an unplanned interview? Definitely taking it too far. But I think in these modern days, Facebook Stalking is too common, whether it's with a prospective employer/employee, a new relationship, or new people entering your life. It's too easy to do that in order to find out about a person. I have been guilty in looking up new friends on Facebook and other social media platforms. 

In fairness I don't think Kate's crazy had anything to do with the googling the girlfriend.  And while I think going to the shop and applying for the job was not the best set of choices I also see how that wasn't exactly the plan.  My issue started where she came to Toby and started going on about how great the ex was.  I mean I get that she was insecure and needed to know what was wrong with the ex or if Toby was just slumming it with her but it turned the corner where she was like, but no she's this totally popular nice person and now we're gonna be friends without even asking Toby anything at all about her.

It was the part where Kate was totally fangirling Toby's ex wife without considering Toby's relationship with Toby's ex wife that really earned the nutjob jab.  

[Ms Blue Jay]

11 hours ago, Artsda said:

 I remembered Toby's ex from Saved by the Bell: New Class.

Oh my god thank you.  You have genius memory.

[Aloeonatable]

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It was Rebecca who kept insisting that Kate wear a T-shirt. It is Rebecca who isn't comfortable with Kate's weight.

Rebecca, like most mothers, was just being protective. I don't think she was "uncomfortable" but concerned with people hurting Kate's feelings. Her concern was justified. When my son was that age, eons ago, kids would make fun of him for being so skinny, even teasing him by saying he had AIDS. Kids can be cruel. 

[Lady Calypso]

12 minutes ago, bybrandy said:

In fairness I don't think Kate's crazy had anything to do with the googling the girlfriend.  And while I think going to the shop and applying for the job was not the best set of choices I also see how that wasn't exactly the plan.  My issue started where she came to Toby and started going on about how great the ex was.  I mean I get that she was insecure and needed to know what was wrong with the ex or if Toby was just slumming it with her but it turned the corner where she was like, but no she's this totally popular nice person and now we're gonna be friends without even asking Toby anything at all about her.

It was the part where Kate was totally fangirling Toby's ex wife without considering Toby's relationship with Toby's ex wife that really earned the nutjob jab.  

Ok, that's fair enough. I could absolutely see why that would make him upset. Even though she didn't know the extent of their relationship, they clearly broke up for a reason. I think Kate's assumption was that Toby had to have broken up with the ex, instead of the other way around, which really does suck. Honestly, since I only saw the scene once, I forgot this detail but I could totally see why Toby would get mad. Maybe calling her a nutjob is taking it a tad far in my personal opinion, but I'm starting to understand Toby's point of view. I still have a ways to go in liking him more, but I don't hate him. I never actually hated him. 

[luna1122]

Ack, Kate became fat Carrie Bradshaw last nite: stalking her boyfriend's ex at her workplace (which suggests that no matter how tiny or large you may be, you can be haunted and riddled with insecurity). And like Carrie, it was cringe inducing. Checking the ex out online is pretty normal, but to actually go to her shop and agree to an interview and reveal that she HAD cyberstalked her (for 'research')...and then run to Toby with it....yeah, I have not been a Toby fan, but his baffled, creeped out reaction made him instantly more relatable to me. I was screaming (well, inwardly) for him to run away from her, just like I screamed (inwardly) for Big to run away from Carrie. His staying with her after that is a step backward, honestly, and probably indicative of his own insecurities. Tho his reveal that he'd not necessarily always been a big guy, that he gained a lot of weight AFTER he was devastated by his divorce....I would think that would play more on Kate's insecurities than ever. Like: he really is only with a big girl after he got big. I don't think that's necessarily the  case, but I'd be surprised if it's not where Kate's brain goes.

Adding to the chorus of those who never cared for Milo before now but now have massive crushes. When did he get so dreamy? I read that he and Mandy are really having a thing, wonder if that's true? Can't blame either of them, if so.

I am not a parent and just watching these two try to wrangle three kids at a pool made me ever more grateful that I'm not. It all looks so very exhausting. Also, no idea how a parent is supposed to have handled the hateful note from Kate's supposed friends---obviously making an issue of it right then would have just humiliated her further--but if I knew those girls' parents, I think I'd have had to make damn sure they were aware what nasty little bullies they were raising. I also don't know how parents SHOULD handle a child's weight issue. They're both clearly trying to help her out in different ways. I know that I have weight related issues now cuz I grew up (skinny) with a mom who always thought she was fat when she wasn't, ever. I wasn't either, as a kid or a teen or in my twenties, but I always thought I was, and toyed with anorexia and bulimia and overeating for years until my metabolism is pretty much shot. My mom is 70 something now, still not remotely fat, and still convinced she is. Anyway.  Rebecca thinking Kate needed a shirt to cover up and Jack thinking she didn't, but still handing over his 'magick' shirt....what a very sweet scene.

And poor little 'normal' Kevin. Just as I was about to write him off as a douchebro of epic proportions after his audition, we see the near drowning scene (like many here, I had my own pool/pond/lake related near death experiences), and his hilarious, real reaction to it. I adored how Kevin responded to meeting William...instantly welcoming despite being surprised by it.

Didn't realize the meddling-but-helpful mom was SJB's real wife. She made an instant impression. What a gorgeous couple.

[izabella]

22 minutes ago, bybrandy said:

In fairness I don't think Kate's crazy had anything to do with the googling the girlfriend.  And while I think going to the shop and applying for the job was not the best set of choices I also see how that wasn't exactly the plan.  My issue started where she came to Toby and started going on about how great the ex was.  I mean I get that she was insecure and needed to know what was wrong with the ex or if Toby was just slumming it with her but it turned the corner where she was like, but no she's this totally popular nice person and now we're gonna be friends without even asking Toby anything at all about her.

It was the part where Kate was totally fangirling Toby's ex wife without considering Toby's relationship with Toby's ex wife that really earned the nutjob jab.  

I agree with this, but take it a step further.  Toby had already told Kate that he had been married and divorced - he mentioned that at the diner when Kate asked him who the woman was and Kate confirmed that.  So Kate had NO interest in asking Toby why they got divorced, or anything about such a significant relationship in his life, until she saw her and saw that she was slim and pretty.  Then, again, instead of asking Toby about his marriage and divorce, she goes into "research" mode, comes up with a whole bunch of conclusions and impressions that have nothing to do with Toby's reality and what he went through with his ex. 

She did her "research" but not to understand Toby better, which could have been accomplished by talking with Toby as she eventually did, but to what?  Make herself feel worse?  What insight did she think she was going to get by going into her store?  Certainly not insight into TOBY.

[Pop Tart]

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Kate went so far over the line the line is a dot (to steal a line from Joey from "Friends"). Cyber-stalking the ex was weird enough, but actually agreeing to an interview so that she could further investigate her? Then actually taking the job and coming to tell Toby how great his ex is? Yikes. And then to hear that he is still recovering from the divorce and how much that ex hurt him? It's not all about you Kate. And stop stalking.

I actually don't think the problem "Samantha" had with Kate was her weight. "Samantha" and friend were at the pool trying to look cool and older than they are. Kate was goofing around like the little kid she is and wearing a "Care Bear" bikini (before that was ironic). There is an age where suddenly kids start acting cool and an immature friend acting like a super model and waving madly in her Care Bear bikini is the opposite of cool. It was Rebecca who kept insisting that Kate wear a T-shirt. It is Rebecca who isn't comfortable with Kate's weight.

I agree with others that I don't think Kate's behavior in regards to the ex was crazy. Searching for info on the ex online is pretty normal and while actually going to the store is not so normal, I don't think she agreed to the interview to further investigate her, I think she went with the interview because she was totally caught. And I even get why she'd be insecure enough to say the things she did about the ex to Toby. How does he go from that pretty, THIN, nice ex to her? It's not logical thinking, it's insecurity and self-loathing. And the comparison she was doing between herself and the ex just wasn't computing for her.

And I think so much of her weight issues circles directly back to Rebecca. Sure it was the little girls who gave her the mean note, but it was Rebecca who first put the thought in her head that she should be self-conscious about how she looked. When Rebecca was saying it, she was feeling confident enough to go ahead without, but then when the mean girls struck, suddenly her mother's message is reinforced and cemented in her mind. I could totally relate, in my home it was my dad who always the oh so helpful comments about my weight as I was growing up. He did it, I'm sure with the same intentions as Rebecca, to protect me and I know, to get me to lose weight for my own good. But those constant reminders took their toll and made me aware that I should always factor my weight into my interactions with people, especially men. I didn't have the weight issues that Kate does, but I think the writers are capturing exactly how the focus on weight creates that ever present self-consciousness about it.

I loved how this episode with that one day in the kids life, illustrated so well all the intended and unintended consequences of everything a parent does.

[kili]

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So Kate had NO interest in asking Toby why they got divorced, or anything about such a significant relationship in his life, until she saw her and saw that she was slim and pretty. 

It also made me think that this relationship has been "All about Kate". They've been going out for three weeks and he knows all about her issues and is expected to accommodate them. But she didn't even know he was recently fat, how horrible his divorce was and that he had contemplated suicide. Has she asked him any questions about him? His ex was all about Kate and she didn't pause for a moment in her diatribe about how great the ex was to consider that Toby might have a different point of view on the ex. I'm not even blaming the ex for the break-up because I don't know both sides - I just know that when a marriage breaks up, it can be pretty raw on both sides.  She comes in complaining about how great his ex is and how she has a job working for her and never for a moment considers how he might see it. I'm skeptical of Toby, but on his side during that argument.

Kate and Kevin really are twins. Both got jobs at almost the same time (interviews moments apart) and somebody is unhappy about it.

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 I adored how Kevin responded to meeting William...instantly welcoming despite being surprised by it.

You can see so much of Jack in Kevin. The same slightly goofy nature, automatic welcoming of newcomers and generally positive attitude about things. Rebecca and Randall seem the most similar (a bit judgmental, but deep thinkers and willing to admit when they are wrong) while Kate is a bit of a blend of the two. The writers and actors seem to have really laid some careful ground work here and I appreciate it.

[ClareWalks]

I can understand Kate's insecurity on some levels, not on others. Her primary concern re: Gorgeous Ex should have been "does Toby have a type, and is THAT it? If so, am I just a temporary off-type fling?" Those are answers she could have gotten from Toby, but could not get from stalking Gorgeous Ex. I am 5'11" and if I heard that my new boyfriend had a petite ex-wife, I might ask if he preferred petite women. I wouldn't be as alarmed as Kate unless I'd heard that he ONLY had dated petite women before.

[AuntiePam]

2 hours ago, kili said:

I actually don't think the problem "Samantha" had with Kate was her weight. "Samantha" and friend were at the pool trying to look cool and older than they are. Kate was goofing around like the little kid she is and wearing a "Care Bear" bikini (before that was ironic). There is an age where suddenly kids start acting cool and an immature friend acting like a super model and waving madly in her Care Bear bikini is the opposite of cool. It was Rebecca who kept insisting that Kate wear a T-shirt. It is Rebecca who isn't comfortable with Kate's weight.

Except that the note included a drawing of a pig. 

I get your point though.  Kate will blame her weight for any slights, or for someone not wanting to be her friend.  It's an easy out, thinking that being fat is the problem, that it has nothing to do with her personality or her behavior. 

[Ms Blue Jay]

By the way, the kid cast to play little Randall was just so, so cute.

[DearEvette]

I was thinking about that Snow White play and wondering how much of what we saw -- the laughing -- was as coded or derisive as it looked or if we were supposed to be hearing it/seeing it how Randall was seeing it?  His projection, as it were?  The way it was shot it almost felt that we were seeing what he was seeing, not necessarily how it was truly happening.  I looked at Beth and William during the same scene and they were laughing and smiling indulgently.  They didn't have that same pinched look that Randall had and it didn't seem as if they were looking around gauging the audience's reaction like he was.  I do give SKB a lot of credit he manages to wind Randall up and then unspool him really believably.  That scene in the store where he gave that great speech about the daily calculations one makes as a black person in a white space (the wind up) then ended on the "now go and try on those slim fit, flat fronted pants" (the unspool) was an excellent example.  So far Randall feels like the most fully formed of the characters with possibly Rebecca coming in second.  I can't wait for everyone else to get the nuance these two seem to have.

I was happy to see Kevin show up at Randall's door.  My other 'can't want' stuff is for the present-day siblings to interact more.  And I am dying to get a deeper look at Kevin and Randall.

I also liked the black pool lady's interaction with Rebecca.  I need to know this woman's name because she can't go through too much longer as just "Black Pool Lady"  lol.  At first I was all offended on Rebecca's behalf because  I did think BPL came off as condescending.  How it is Rebecca's responsibility to introduce herself to every black family she comes across just because she has a black son?  But I liked how it all played out and how each woman was at her core was nice and just looking out fr Randall.

Edited October 19, 2016 by DearEvette

[saber5055]

Kate, Kate, Kate ... when you are browsing in a store, just SAY you are browsing, not there to apply for a job. Way to make yourself REALLY noticed by Toby's ex, while if you were just window shopping, she'd barely remember you. Toby finally was a believable character this week, and dropped his "I'm so perfect" facade. And those extra-nosey white neighbors? If they're so involved in spying on Randal and family, they would have know days ago that William was staying there. They probably have binoculars trained on every window of Randall's house. And wow, that cop sure got there quickly. Must be an upper-class white thing, cops at your disposal 24/7.

[izabella]

10 minutes ago, saber5055 said:

And wow, that cop sure got there quickly. Must be an upper-class white thing, cops at your disposal 24/7.

I don't think he was a cop.  His uniform said Security, so I think he was private security hired by the association for the community.  It looked pretty ritzy and could have been a gated community.  Randall definitely knew him by first name, and the guy knew Randall.

[Guest]

Quote

In any case, please trust that should my child ever receive such a note as Kate did at the pool, those little bitches would receive such a public reading they'd have to close the place due to thunder and lightning. Swim for your life, you little side-pony shrew.

This line from the review made me laugh really hard, so I thought it should be memorialized in here. 

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

This Is Us Jumps Into The Deep End Of The Pool

Tackling issues of race, class, identity, insecurity, history...ALL OF IT.

[romantic idiot]

3 hours ago, Lostinthehouse said:

 Was I / am I crazy?  No, just insecure.

My apologies, and I am not implying anything, but this line made me life because I thought that's exactly what a crazy person would say. 

3 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

IYou were very fortunate. I had an experience almost identical to Kate's - and it still haunts me, decades later.

I was watching this show and thanking my stars for my childhood as a fat, left-of-centre person because we really didn't have even an iota of this viciousness growing up. And i'd have been a prime target for bullying so I'd know. The worse thing that happened to me was that I just didn't have any friends which was fine as it gave me more time to read. Rebecca seemed to love reading - maybe it would have been good if she could have instilled that love into Kate, maybe it would have helped Kate broaden her horizons enough to realise there was a world beyond her weight, growing up. (Also, Rebecca reads fast! I was impressed). 

2 hours ago, Enigma X said:

Haha. I was a fan of Milo's on Heroes until I wasn't a fan of Heroes at all.

Heroes cured me of ever watching anything with Quinto in it. Milo's stock with me didn't improve or decline,, strangely enough. 

1 hour ago, Arcadiasw said:

I hope Kevin actually listens to Maine and take a class. He can still do that and work on the play. I hope he seriously commit to strengthening his acting skills. Until he does something that makes him more famous than the Manny, he needs to get used to be being noticed on the street for Manny and saying the famous catchphrase. Also, Kevin, you’re 36. Stop with the excuses and don’t be late for a job. Doesn’t matter if you are in a new city. There’s a reason for Taxis and Uber. 

I thought Maine was being both harsh, unnecessarily dismissive and (probably) jealous of Kevin's fame but I do hope Kevin listens to her too. I also think when he was actually delivering his lines, he didn't sound too bad, so I feel like the talent is there. I was disappointed that he arrived so late at the audition. He should have given up his 'walk like a New Yorker' plan the minute it looked liked he'd be late for his very important audition. 

About the episode, I learnt one interesting thing - that apparently black people need sunscreen. Because I'm brown and i don't need it all, except when up in mountains, and that too only on my nose. The folks here use sunscreen wear it to keep from getting darker, not because it's needed.  I like learning new stuff like this. 

Also, I couldn't take Rebecca seriously when she was going on about how hot she was because she obviously wasn't feeling it enough to get her hair off her neck. 

[izabella]

The one thing that rang false to me was the sunscreen stuff.  The 80's were not a time when sunscreen was popular.  In fact, there was very low SPF on sunscreen back then, in many cases it was marketing as sun tan oil to help you get a "deep, dark, savage tan!"  And a lot of people used baby oil AND those aluminum things to fry to a crisp.  Rebecca would not have been wearing a long sleeve shirt at the pool - she'd have been tanning, on purpose.

[PRgal]

33 minutes ago, saber5055 said:

Kate, Kate, Kate ... when you are browsing in a store, just SAY you are browsing, not there to apply for a job. Way to make yourself REALLY noticed by Toby's ex, while if you were just window shopping, she'd barely remember you. Toby finally was a believable character this week, and dropped his "I'm so perfect" facade. And those extra-nosey white neighbors? If they're so involved in spying on Randal and family, they would have know days ago that William was staying there. They probably have binoculars trained on every window of Randall's house. And wow, that cop sure got there quickly. Must be an upper-class white thing, cops at your disposal 24/7.

I just thought they lived in a gated community with a security guy at the entrance.

[mojito]

Quote

Kevin's journey remains the least interesting.  I'm all in with his siblings and parents. Hopefully that will change because I want to be equally invested in all the characters.

I think that's the thing about Kevin. He grew up kind of backgrounded and as an adult, he's not. But he still has self-doubt. I don't think he feels that he got his current fame on merit. He has an emptiness inside him. In a way, he's more complicated than his siblings, because he seems that he has the most going for him, and anyone looking at him would assume so, but he's empty.

@saber5055, Kate didn't state that she was looking for a job, the ex asked if she could help Kate find something (while Kate was fondling the portfolio) and when Kate said "no", the ex said, "Oh, you're here about the job". So they both got swept up in that. Considering Kate's being thrown off-balance, and considering that she was snooping on the ex, I would think she would just play things out, knowing that she'd never get the job anyway. That would serve the purpose of finding fault in the ex, too.

I liked the Snow White scene, showing William chuckling also while Randall wasn't even sure how to take the snickers. In 1980, I would've taken the snickers differently than I would in 2016. Sometimes it's hard to find the right balance.

Quote

And I'm glad to hear "ashy" get addressed in a prim time, major network show! Things are going to get ugly when Randall finds out his mom kept William's information a secret.

You would've loved a scene in Grey's Anatomy where, after being chastised by a black doctor for how poorly he did his adopted daughter's hair, Patrick Dempsey's character is seen at home, getting instruction from this doctor as he wrestles with the girl's hair, remarking to his wife, "Did you know that Zola (I'm not sure of her name) has a kitchen?" He seemed so amazed and proud of that fact. I wonder how many people had to look up the word "kitchen" to find out what that meant. 

Quote

Because I'm brown and i don't need it all, except when up in mountains, and that too only on my nose. 

You might want to do a little research on that.

I'm pretty neutral on Jack, Rebecca, and Toby. I need more time getting to know them to formulate any strong stance.

[jennifer6973]

13 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

This is a strange comparison, but was anyone reminded of Joey Tribbiani working in that play with Kate on Friends?  The Kevin storyline MIGHT have reminded me of something else too, but I definitely thought of Joey.  I swear, if it goes that exact route, LOL.  

Same.  Also their energies are just so different.  Kate to me reads so light and Toby reads so dark.  

The actress playing Toby's ex looked alarmingly like Kristin Davis.  I've probably seen that actress in something before.

Sorry to do this, but what was the conclusion of Jack's story about the shirt?  He saved some guy from others attacking him and what did the guy say?  

Saved By the Bell the New Class was where I remember her most from.  Her name is Lyndsey Fonseca

[RedheadZombie]

14 hours ago, mtlchick said:

Well, this show got me.  We're now understanding why the kids have these neuroses.  Kate and Randall are obvious, Kevin's is a little more deeper.  I still think his story is the weakest but now you get why the constant need of attention.

You're right, and I think Jack is unintentionally bringing a lot of this mockery on Kate.  She seems a natural ham, and he just eggs her on.  Then he encourages her to stomp around and dance and flaunt in her bikini, which requires Rebecca and the boys to stop what they're doing, so the world can appreciate Kate.  This may unintentionally teach Kate that it's okay to interrupt other people and bring the attention to herself.  So she arrives at the very crowded pool, and begins her whole song and dance, and she may have seemed a little pushy to the group of mean girls.

I'm not at all implying that little Kate should hide in her room, cover herself head to toe, or become a wallflower.  I think Kate looked adorable in her bikini, and I feel sorry for that little actress that they're pretending she looked morbidly obese and laughable.  But the other little girls were wearing more demure suits, and that may have been part of the problem.  Either way, things would probably have gone better if Kate wasn't so demanding of attention.  I don't think the adults were looking at her because she was slightly chubby.  They were looking at her because she was loud.   It reminds me of the little redheaded girl from Big Love.  There was a scene of her knocking herself out, dressed up and tap dancing loudly and twirling a baton, trying to hog everyone's attention.  I think it was during a telethon, and they had to practically drag her off the stage with a hook.  She was skinny as can be, and they were reacting to her pushiness.

And while Kate is hogging up the majority of the attention, Kevin is feeling the need to compete for attention.  And since he's super close to his twin, Kevin projects this resentment onto Randall - who is very quiet and causes little problem.  And since Kevin constantly voices resentment of Randall, Rebecca feels protective and needs to nurture Randall to make sure he feels wanted.  So while both parents are imperfect, I feel Jack makes more mistakes.  And the t-shirt story?  Eight year olds are unlikely to believe that hogwash.  I expected her to pull a Gertie (E.T.) - "Give me a break".

 

14 hours ago, callmebetty said:

I'll just add I  love Sterling K Brown and think he's phenomenal but is it wrong I liked him with the few extra pounds when he played Chris Darden?

Maybe it's the Darden facial hair you're missing, not the weight.  It looked really good on Sterling.

13 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

Although I found this the weakest of the episodes so far, it still was not bad compared to many other shows that I've been watching. It's mostly the Kate and Kevin's storylines this episode that brought it down for me. 

Maybe because Kate and Kevin are separated now?  I definitely find Kevin more likable when he's with Kate.  He's still arrogant and self-involved, but he's very encouraging of Kate, supportive, and accepting of Toby.  They're very sweet together.  I'm hoping the Big Three are going to be magic together.

[romantic idiot]

13 minutes ago, mojito said:

You might want to do a little research on that.

I'm 35 with skin that looks 25, and I only tan not burn so I do think I am good for now but I will keep an eye out.

19 minutes ago, izabella said:

The 80's were not a time when sunscreen was popular.

You might be on to something. I do remember never seeing a sunscreen ad till college. Then again it could just be globalisation as it started in the 90s for us. 

[romantic idiot]

14 minutes ago, RedheadZombie said:

You're right, and I think Jack is unintentionally bringing a lot of this mockery on Kate.  She seems a natural ham, and he just eggs her on.  Then he encourages her to stomp around and dance and flaunt in her bikini, which requires Rebecca and the boys to stop what they're doing, so the world can appreciate Kate.  This may unintentionally teach Kate that it's okay to interrupt other people and bring the attention to herself.  So she arrives at the very crowded pool, and begins her whole song and dance, and she may have seemed a little pushy to the group of mean girls.

Really really different strokes here. I saw a natural, outgoing girl, who is a little socially awkward, excited about seeing a familiar face and going over to make friendly overtures. I think that's how children should be. Open and confident in their lovability. It is so sad that it was all taken away from her. for whatever reasons, but I think Jack had the right idea in instilling that confidence in her, and his mistake was in giving in to Rebecca's insecurities. Jack and Rebecca's actions fed the belief that the mean girls were somewhat right and Kate had brought her misery on to herself when that was completely the wrong lesson to take from what happened at the pool. The way to defeat meanness is not to give in to it - that's like putting on a long, loose dress when going out because otherwise you might get raped. 

Edited October 19, 2016 by romantic idiot
Apologies for double posting. Tried to edit to add the response to the quote. Don't know how that happened.

[luna1122]

I grew up in the 60s and 70s and we used sunscreen. There was even that coppertone ad with Jodie foster as a little girl. Sure, when I was a teen I baked out in the sun with baby oil to get bronzed, but definitely by the 80s, I was using sunscreen with a higher SPF. I'd think for sure that parents would be making sure the kids were well covered with it. 

[RedheadZombie]

7 minutes ago, romantic idiot said:

Really really different strokes here. I saw a natural, outgoing girl, who is a little socially awkward, excited about seeing a familiar face and going over to make friendly overtures. I think that's how children should be. Open and confident in their lovability. It is so sad that it was all taken away from her. for whatever reasons, but I think Jack had the right idea in instilling that confidence in her, and his mistake was in giving in to Rebecca's insecurities. Jack and Rebecca's actions fed the belief that the mean girls were somewhat right and Kate had brought her misery on to herself when that was completely the wrong lesson to take from what happened at the pool. The way to defeat meanness is not to give in to it - that's like putting on a long, loose dress when going out because otherwise you might get raped. 

I understand what you're saying, and I never said Kate shouldn't be open, confident, or friendly.  But she's beyond that, IMO, and it's because Jack eggs her on and she's allowed to dominate a lot of the attention, at the expense of her brothers.  I think Jack is clueless, and obvious about his partiality.  There's nothing wrong with occasionally interrupting her, and telling her to let one of her brothers have a turn.  And again, I understand your point, but I'm not sure how my comment can at all be compared to rape.

Edited October 19, 2016 by RedheadZombie
Spelling

[Ms Blue Jay]

32 minutes ago, jennifer6973 said:

Saved By the Bell the New Class was where I remember her most from.  Her name is Lyndsey Fonseca

The show is right, but I believe the actor is Natalia Cigliuti as other posters have helped me see.   http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0162233/ 

20 minutes ago, romantic idiot said:

I'm 35 with skin that looks 25, and I only tan not burn so I do think I am good for now but I will keep an eye out.

I don't think it's the burning that scares people.  It's the possibility of skin cancer.  I only tanned "never burned" for like the first 16 or so years of my life, then I started burning.  That scares me.  I wear sunscreen now.

For the poster that likened Kevin's situation to Middle Child Syndrome.  As a middle child who loves to read about Birth order and even took a college course on it, I appreciate the comparison.  Obviously every family is so nuanced, complex, and different but in mine, older brother was the rebel and youngest brother was the baby.  Parents will say things to me like "We never had to worry about you" when it comes to certain things and I find that strange.  It's all made up in their heads.  

Edited October 19, 2016 by Ms Blue Jay

[ChromaKelly]

41 minutes ago, izabella said:

The one thing that rang false to me was the sunscreen stuff.  The 80's were not a time when sunscreen was popular.  In fact, there was very low SPF on sunscreen back then, in many cases it was marketing as sun tan oil to help you get a "deep, dark, savage tan!"  And a lot of people used baby oil AND those aluminum things to fry to a crisp.  Rebecca would not have been wearing a long sleeve shirt at the pool - she'd have been tanning, on purpose.

It was 1987, not 1977. I think advisories about sunscreen were starting to come out? I can't recall whether or not my parents put it on me.
They were attentive parents for the 80's though. My parents were totally not paying attention to me at the pool.

[jennifer6973]

Thank you for the right name.

 

--------------------------------------

Most of what I loved has been said already.

I totally loved that with everything Jack did to get chairs for everyone, at the end they were sitting on the pool deck.

 

I was chubby like Kate when I was a girl, I remember have to shop for Husky Jeans at Sears when I was her age.

[PRgal]

I started wearing sunscreen around that time (1987/88) as well - Coppertone kids.  My mom was obsessed with me wearing at least SPF 25 (or something like that).  Must be a traditional Asian mom/Asian standard thing.  She didn't want me to look like a farm girl. 

[DoubleUTeeEff]

2 minutes ago, RedheadZombie said:

And again, I understand your point, but I'm not sure how my comment can at all be compared to rape.

I don't think it was a direct comparison but rather an analogy.  In both cases, thinking that covering up your body will somehow stop people from making fun of you if you are fat or stop them from raping you.  Neither is true and it blames the wrong person, the victim of bullying or rape, rather than the person who is doing the wrong.  THEY shouldn't be an asshole or assault you, regardless of how you are dressed.

[WInterfalls]

Ok so I am going to defend Rebecca here for a second. I was very much like young Kate growing up in the 80's. I was just a bit bigger than all the other girls even though I wasn't outright fat. My mother would make comments about how I didn't have the right body type for that outfit or something similar and I was on a million different diets. The thing was though she did it out of nothing more than love and concern and sure it gave me insecurities I carry with me still but it's not because she was a bad mother. The climate of the time was just like that. What I later learned when we sat and talked about it as adults was that what she said to me was nothing compared to what her mother had said to her. My grandmother that I always thought of as perfect had watched everything her and her sisters ate like a hawk. When other moms said eat all your food her's told her it was better to waste on the plate than on her hips. My mother said all she ever wanted was for me to be happy and healthy, but she didn't want to be her mother either. Basically, she was just trying to find the balance and be a good mom and that is exactly what I'm seeing in Rebecca. She's trying to find the balance here. Maybe she's not handling things the way we would today, but it's not because she cold and unloving she's just not sure what the best way is.

[romantic idiot]

28 minutes ago, RedheadZombie said:

I understand what you're saying, and I never said Kate shouldn't be open, confident, or friendly.  But she's beyond that, IMO, and it's because Jack eggs her on and she's allowed to dominate a lot of the attention, at the expense of her brothers.  I think Jack is clueless, and obvious about his partiality.  There's nothing wrong with occasionally interrupting her, and telling her to let one of her brothers have a turn.  And again, I understand your point, but I'm not sure how my comment can at all be compared to rape.

My apologies, I didn't mean to imply that what you said was commented to rape, and I did note that the post did stress that Kate shouldn't hide herself into a room. I, however, didn't find her behaviour 'beyond that' at all, which is what I meant to call out, and to mention that even if she was loud (which I didn't find her to be), she was still in no way to blame for what happened to her. 

26 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I don't think it's the burning that scares people.  It's the possibility of skin cancer.  I only tanned "never burned" for like the first 16 or so years of my life, then I started burning.  That scares me.  I wear sunscreen now.

Oh, no, I get that people were referring to / are worried about skin cancer. 

21 minutes ago, PRgal said:

I started wearing sunscreen around that time (1987/88) as well - Coppertone kids.  My mom was obsessed with me wearing at least SPF 25 (or something like that).  Must be a traditional Asian mom/Asian standard thing.  She didn't want me to look like a farm girl. 

Yeah, sunscreen is big here now, but not because of the cancer so much, though it may ostensibly be the reason. Folks just don't want their children to get darker.  

18 minutes ago, DoubleUTeeEff said:

I don't think it was a direct comparison but rather an analogy.  In both cases, thinking that covering up your body will somehow stop people from making fun of you if you are fat or stop them from raping you.  Neither is true and it blames the wrong person, the victim of bullying or rape, rather than the person who is doing the wrong.  THEY shouldn't be an asshole or assault you, regardless of how you are dressed.

Thank you. You said it much better than I did. 

[bybrandy]

1 hour ago, izabella said:

The one thing that rang false to me was the sunscreen stuff.  The 80's were not a time when sunscreen was popular.  In fact, there was very low SPF on sunscreen back then, in many cases it was marketing as sun tan oil to help you get a "deep, dark, savage tan!"  And a lot of people used baby oil AND those aluminum things to fry to a crisp.  Rebecca would not have been wearing a long sleeve shirt at the pool - she'd have been tanning, on purpose.

I don't know.  I remember getting spf 4 or 6 which just seems absurd to me now.   But I also remember that protecting the face became a thing and they sold this really brightly colored intense sunblock for kids for their nose and around their eyes.  I know I had some in purple and maybe orange and you didn't rub it in you owned your colors like it was cool.  Maybe it had zinc? I was born in 78 so for sure this was the 80s.  Am I making this up?  Anyone?   And it was after that but pretty much from that time on that my mom wouldn't let me go without at least a 15 but preferably a 30.   

[PRgal]

3 minutes ago, bybrandy said:

I don't know.  I remember getting spf 4 or 6 which just seems absurd to me now.   But I also remember that protecting the face became a thing and they sold this really brightly colored intense sunblock for kids for their nose and around their eyes.  I know I had some in purple and maybe orange and you didn't rub it in you owned your colors like it was cool.  Maybe it had zinc? I was born in 78 so for sure this was the 80s.  Am I making this up?  Anyone?   And it was after that but pretty much from that time on that my mom wouldn't let me go without at least a 15 but preferably a 30.   

You're not making it up (I'm a year younger than you)!  See my earlier reply. :)

[bybrandy]

5 minutes ago, PRgal said:

You're not making it up (I'm a year younger than you)!  See my earlier reply. :)

Ahhh!   I saw your reply but I totally didn't remember it being Coppertone kids.  And quite frankly I'm not sure the stuff I am talking about was.  It came in like a tube or a roll on specifically for your nose and face.  But Coppertone Kids Colorblock is so in the vein of what I'm talking about and the right time period.  Totally!