S01.E02: The Assassination Of Abraham Lincoln

[Tara Ariano]

Quote

Terrorist Garcia Flynn connects with notorious assassin John Wilkes Booth, as Lucy, Wyatt and Rufus chase Flynn to the night of Abraham Lincoln's assassination. Also, Lucy must put aside a tragedy of her own, and the trio debate altering history.

[vesperholly]

Ha! Black Elon Musk gets the paperweights line.

Abigail Spencer and time travel is giving me Wade in Sliders vibes.

[Primetimer]

But after a shaky start, we get something worth remembering.

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[ketose]

I'm still on the fence over the show. It is starting to look like Lucy has some Predestination thing going on which may or may not be a good thing.

I kind of called it when I mentioned The Butterfly Effect and smoking last week.

[KaveDweller]

I still liked it and I'm glad they shook things up a little by having the team succeed at stopping Flynn this time, even if history changed a little. I totally felt for everyone wanting to save Lincoln, but I do think they are assuming he had a bit more power than he did. I have a hard time believing Lincoln surviving would have meant there would have been no racism.  

When that tech woman (is that what she is) was talking to Lucy about her parents, I thought Lucy was going to look in a mirror and see that she was someone else. But then I remembered they can't switch actresses, so I like the reveal that her dad wasn't really her dad. But she technically doesn't know if her mom has been lying to her in this life. She did before, but the mom lied and said her husband was Lucy's father. If the mom never got married that wouldn't have been her story.

I will say, I hate when people on TV shows don't explain things they easily could have.

Flynn: I'm not trying to destroy history, I'm trying to save it.

Lucy: How?

Then Flynn says nothing and runs off. If there's a reason just tell her. 

[Chaos Theory]

This show continues to work for me and gets another big Hell Yes from me.  I like the overall mystery.  I like that the show is not afraid to mess with time.  I like the three main characters.  The stories in the past work for me as well.  I especially like Rufus dealing with the black freemen soldiers and Lucy and Lincoln''s son.   

[Shaynaa]

13 minutes ago, KaveDweller said:

I still liked it and I'm glad they shook things up a little by having the team succeed at stopping Flynn this time, even if history changed a little. I totally felt for everyone wanting to save Lincoln, but I do think they are assuming he had a bit more power than he did. I have a hard time believing Lincoln surviving would have meant there would have been no racism.  

When that tech woman (is that what she is) was talking to Lucy about her parents, I thought Lucy was going to look in a mirror and see that she was someone else. But then I remembered they can't switch actresses, so I like the reveal that her dad wasn't really her dad. But she technically doesn't know if her mom has been lying to her in this life. She did before, but the mom lied and said her husband was Lucy's father. If the mom never got married that wouldn't have been her story.

I will say, I hate when people on TV shows don't explain things they easily could have.

Flynn: I'm not trying to destroy history, I'm trying to save it.

Lucy: How?

Then Flynn says nothing and runs off. If there's a reason just tell her. 

Yeah, that drove me batty.  I'm guessing Luka is actually trying to do the right thing somehow or another.  Just tell her.  I guess her not knowing could be connected to some future predestined event that he knows about but really, communicating would really make things go much smoother.

For a minute I thought Flynn would be the fiance.  Maybe he's her dad?  They are definitely connected.

[kalamac]

I like Abigail Spencer, but it would be funny if every episode had Lucy being played by a different actress, because every time they changed the timeline it affected her heritage in some way.

[sjohnson]

In 1863, the NYC "draft riots" were a massive pogrom against African-Americans that (coincidentally) coincided with the battle of Gettysburg. Lincoln did not pursue investigations and trials. True, the city was in the north, not a theater of war, which limited his powers as federal president. (An issue that limited the application of the Emancipation Proclamation, by the way.) But, also true, it was a precedent for how Lincoln would have handled white violence against ex-slaves during Reconstruction. As his extreme efforts to win the Thirteenth Amendment before the new congress went into session, Lincoln planned to re-absorb the southern states as quickly as possible. Given that, it is by no means certain Lincoln would have been so much lenient with Black Codes and restoring Confederates than Johnson unexpectedly turned out to be. Maybe things would have been improved if Johnson had been assassinated too? Or at least if he had been impeached, JFK's opinion to the contrary. But what really is getting me about their plotting is they actually got quite a bit of detail right, except for some odd reason didn't show Seward in bed recovering from a carriage accident. A brace for his neck apparently saved him from having his throat slashed. The story about Edwin and Robert is true, so what stop there? 

I'm pretty sure Flynn didn't tell Lucy about Rittenhouse because it's not in her diary for that day. 

They should have cast Jared Leto for John Wilkes Booth. 

[KaveDweller]

Changing something like a president dying or who becomes the next president is going to have a huge impact on history no matter who it is. I don't think anyone can predict whether it would be for the better or not. Probably a little of each, honestly.

But even if it's not a huge global change, a change like that could impact whether the three time travelers are even born, or the time machine ever built. Which brings us to the paradox of time travel...

[green]

45 minutes ago, KaveDweller said:

I still liked it and I'm glad they shook things up a little by having the team succeed at stopping Flynn this time, even if history changed a little. I totally felt for everyone wanting to save Lincoln, but I do think they are assuming he had a bit more power than he did. I have a hard time believing Lincoln surviving would have meant there would have been no racism. 

No it wouldn't get rid of racism.  But it would mean the Reconstruction Era wouldn't have been so punitive against the south given a weak Johnson giving into the demands of the radical Republicans.  Thus the south was punished and taken advantage of by both northern carpetbaggers and southern scallywags which caused a bitter backlash leading to the such things as the KKK as well as strict segregation laws and defacto disenfranchisement of the southern black population that would follow after the era ended and southern whites got their way with things again.  If Lincoln's more generous version of a non-punitive reconstruction had happened perhaps the white south would have been somewhat robbed of it's thirst for revenge.

Punishing a loser in a war usually doesn't work out to well.  See Germany after WWI's Treaty of Versailles and it's effects leading directly to the rise of Hitler.  Then see the quick turnaround of rebuilding instead of punishing Germany and Japan less war criminals of both countries that could be rounded up and tried.  Now they are both solid, democratic states and major allies. 

So yeah treating the south well despite all it did against the country may well have helped Afro-Americans more than the radical Republican/Johnson approach.  Slavery was abolished both ways.  But the divide between blacks and whites due to reconstruction was a pathway to bitterness towards and backlash against those blacks that remained in the south.

In other news how come the capitol dome is in place on those long shots?  Was it finally completed by the end of the war?  It sure wasn't during the war.

[KaveDweller]

2 minutes ago, green said:

No it wouldn't get rid of racism.  But it would mean the Reconstruction Era wouldn't have been so punitive against the south given a weak Johnson giving into the demands of the radical Republicans.  Thus the south was punished and taken advantage of by both northern carpetbaggers and southern scallywags which caused a bitter backlash leading to the such things as the KKK as well as strict segregation laws and defacto disenfranchisement of the southern black population that would follow after the era ended and southern whites got their way with things again.  If Lincoln's more generous version of a non-punitive reconstruction had happened perhaps the white south would have been somewhat robbed of it's thirst for revenge.

Perhaps, but perhaps not. I agree about not punishing the loser of a war, but I think there was a lot of anger either way and was always going to be a rough battle to rebuild. Maybe things would be better, but they just seemed to be taking it to the extreme. But maybe that's what happens when you time travel. It seems like an emotional thing.

[LittleIggy]

I cried because I always cry over any depiction of the Lincoln assassination, in writing or on the screen. On a shallow note, the guy playing Robert Todd Lincoln was cute. Loved Rufus' choice of "Denzel," a nod to "Glory."

[Shaynaa]

Thought about it some more.  Garcia is either Lucy's father or her future husband/soulmate/whatever.

She keeps running into for a reason and I don't believe it is just because of this conspiracy.  Maybe I have watched too much Doctor Who but I feel pretty certain.  It reminds me of the Doctor and River having to compare notes as to where in time they are in the relationship.  Also, I think whats his name's dead wife will show up at some point.

I am a physics dummy but I am trying to understand why they keep having to rush around and chase Flynn.  They have a time machine so they can pop up whenever they want presumably.  Why is time in the past and present running parallel.  Why didn't they come back to present 5 minutes after they left?

[maraleia]

Not sure how many people know this but Boothe and the other assassination conspirators were in the audience during Lincoln's Second Inaugural Address. I would've loved if they had Lucy say a line about this on the show because it's creepy and fascinating.

Here's the photo and some info about this  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Lincoln's_second_inaugural_address

[CeeBeeGee]

I feel like they left out an explanatory paragraph or two. I could follow it b/c as a child I had a strange fascination Lincoln (I was a little morbid and his murder and the death of his little boy pulled on me) but after a brief general rundown of the conspiracy, next thing the computer dude and the soldier are talking about "Azerodt."

Anyway, still loved it. But where did Lucy get that second dress? Surely she didn't plan for a social appointment when back at HQ--so where did she get the money?

[TDT]

2 hours ago, KaveDweller said:

I will say, I hate when people on TV shows don't explain things they easily could have.

Flynn: I'm not trying to destroy history, I'm trying to save it.

Lucy: How?

Then Flynn says nothing and runs off. If there's a reason just tell her. 

In other words,theyre saving Flynn's answer for until the season finale lol

[bros402]

1 hour ago, CeeBeeGee said:

I feel like they left out an explanatory paragraph or two. I could follow it b/c as a child I had a strange fascination Lincoln (I was a little morbid and his murder and the death of his little boy pulled on me) but after a brief general rundown of the conspiracy, next thing the computer dude and the soldier are talking about "Azerodt."

Anyway, still loved it. But where did Lucy get that second dress? Surely she didn't plan for a social appointment when back at HQ--so where did she get the money?

They probably slipped it to her when they were dressing her.

 

Also, this episode was better than the pilot, a bit less exposition-y

[green]

1 hour ago, Shaynaa said:

I am a physics dummy but I am trying to understand why they keep having to rush around and chase Flynn.  They have a time machine so they can pop up whenever they want presumably.  Why is time in the past and present running parallel.  Why didn't they come back to present 5 minutes after they left?

I think they mumbled some "this show's version of time travel rules" in the first episode.  Basically the time machine they travel in was an earlier prototype of the fancier one Flynn stole.  This prototype was reconfigured as a "lifeboat" for the main time machine back in the pre-theft days in case their research team in the newer version ended up with mechanical problems etc in the past and they needed to call AAA for a tow ... well a lift home of themselves anyway. 

As such there was installed some sort of homing beacon in the clunker that can triangulate somehow on Flynn's model.  How it works is of course nonsense but I get the gist that they have to basically wait for Flynn's next move then use the beacon to chase after him within a certain amount of present time.  Why?  No real reason other than the writers say so.

As to why they can't come back 5 minutes after they left, TV show "physics" again.  Time travel shows make no sense at all so you have to let each show have it's version of time travel "laws".  Some are easier to swallow then others but in the end they are all silly and as full of holes as a slice of Swiss cheese.

[shapeshifter]

Having watched and enjoyed the new show Frequency this week in which

Spoiler

the female lead discovers that by manipulating the past, her fiancé has a different fiancee and doesn't know her at all, it was ironic to see the opposite result on this show, in which the female lead returns to her own time on the night of her engagement party to discover she has a fiance, whom she has never seen before.

Whenever these kind of similarities happen, I can't help but wonder if the networks have spies to see what each other is working on — which might make an interesting-if-soapy show in itself.

Frequency was my favorite new show, but this one is winning me over, mostly because of the realistic emotions as they are written, directed, and performed. I wonder if Lucy's attraction to Lincoln's son was a factor in her gaining a fiance in 2016 — like it changed her and made her more willing to form a close human bond.

Everytime they park the time machine in the past, I'm reminded of how that didn't work so well for SG1. I fully expect it to get boarded by hostile locals at some point.

[Andrew Wiggin]

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I wonder if Lucy's attraction to Lincoln's son was a factor in her gaining a fiance in 2016 — like it changed her and made her more willing to form a close human bond.

Nope it cant have anything to do with that,because the Lucy from there current Timeline met him bevor the first Time tRavel could ever be had happend.Or she got an Fiance and a Engagement Party within 12 hours ^^

[Kromm]

33 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

I wonder if Lucy's attraction to Lincoln's son was a factor in her gaining a fiance in 2016 — like it changed her and made her more willing to form a close human bond.

Except that version of Lucy isn't the same one.  The version of Lucy who got engaged was a different one. Or rather the two versions, since a chronologically earlier version of Lucy has been engaged in two of the three universes we've seen now--but the version who's narrative we are following has replaced those two other versions by appearing in their place in their universes (not sure exactly what that says about the fate of discarded alternates--presumably they went away in their own versions of the time machine but never came back... at least to the universes this Lucy has come back to). 

The point is that the decision to get engaged, as well as all of that relationship, happened to a version of Lucy who (at that point) hadn't yet time traveled--who hadn't even MET Lincoln's son yet. It's a completely different branch of experiences this Lucy has never lived, but even if the other versions of Lucy also traveled back and met Lincoln's son as well in some other branches (they also were recruited to versions of this project and went back in their own versions of the time machine), they were still ALREADY engaged when that happened to those versions (since they came from these realities where the engagement had already happened). 

Either way, no version of Lucy engaged to this guy met him chronologically after meeting Lincoln Jr., and OUR version of Lucy is completely separate from all of this on top of that (having never even met the man before--unless the show gives us some reveal next episode that she knows the guy anyway, but in her original world wasn't engaged to him). 

Yeah I know. The timey-wimey stuff is enough to make your head hurt!

Edited October 11, 2016 by Kromm

[withanaich]

Quote

Yeah, that drove me batty.  I'm guessing Luka is actually trying to do the right thing somehow or another.  Just tell her.  I guess her not knowing could be connected to some future predestined event that he knows about but really, communicating would really make things go much smoother.

It was driving me nuts too, but then my husband reminded me that there might be a real reason he can't tell her, the same way the time-traveling trio can't warn Lincoln's son "tell your dad to stay home or he's going to get assassinated." For one, she might not even believe Flynn if he DID tell her, and for another, maybe him telling her would affect the events he's predicting (her coming over to his side) coming to fruition. He seems to have faith that things will unfold the way they're supposed to (at least on that front) without him interfering. That's another thing making me think he's not as much of a "bad" guy as he seems, along with the hard implication that he didn't actually kill his wife and child, and Paterson Joseph's character having Rufus spying on the other two painting him in a less-than-heroic light. I just wish Rufus would tell him to step off, rather than dragging this thing out to the point where he's built a relationship with Lucy and whatshisface, Lucy starts to unravel the mystery, and when Rufus is revealed to be a spy the other two don't trust him anymore.

I kind of don't like the other guy. He seems like nothing more than a source of angst and fake sexual tension. I hope the writers reveal a REAL reason for HIM specifically to have been asked along (like Lucy's apparent connection to Flynn and Rufus' debt to Paterson Joseph's rich dude -- which, by the way, just pay him his money back because it's really not worth it), rather than any guy with combat training. I wanted to slap him when he was whining, "You mean to tell me you wouldn't save myyyyyyy wiiiiiiiife?" Um, dude, if she wouldn't save ABRAHAM LINCOLN, then why the hell would she save your wife? Is your wife important to anyone but her friends and family? No? Then shut the hell up. Real nice that he was only sympathetic that her sister got SUDDENLY WIPED FROM EXISTENCE until she didn't rush to meaninglessly assure him that she would totes save his damn wife that they will never get the opportunity to save anyway. What a damn baby.

Quote

Everytime they park the time machine in the past, I'm reminded of how that didn't work so well for SG1. I fully expect it to get boarded by hostile locals at some point.

They really do need a lock, or something that renders the ship "invisible." Hell, they invented time travel, you'd think they could bend light waves to that extent...

9 hours ago, bros402 said:

 

11 hours ago, CeeBeeGee said:

I feel like they left out an explanatory paragraph or two. I could follow it b/c as a child I had a strange fascination Lincoln (I was a little morbid and his murder and the death of his little boy pulled on me) but after a brief general rundown of the conspiracy, next thing the computer dude and the soldier are talking about "Azerodt."

Anyway, still loved it. But where did Lucy get that second dress? Surely she didn't plan for a social appointment when back at HQ--so where did she get the money?

They probably slipped it to her when they were dressing her.

 

That is exactly what happened. They showed them giving her money in the first episode (which she then used to buy a newspaper). It's just not very interesting to show them handing her pocket money every week, but we can assume they are given money along with period clothing on each trip. Not as interesting as watching someone trying to figure out a corset and hoop skirt, I guess.

What I thought was odd was that Rufus seems to be one to figure out what Garcia Flynn is after in the next episode, after they're already in the past. For one thing, isn't Lucy the know-it-all historian? For another, don't they do the big reveal before they travel back? ("You're going to April 14, 1865." "What's that?" "That's when Lincoln gets assassinated, get in the ship.") So next week they're rushing to stop Flynn, without knowing what they're trying to stop? How's that gonna work? I mean, it's obviously going to work, because that's the show, but it seems like an unnecessary degree of mystery.

Edited October 11, 2016 by withanaich

[Netfoot]

There is a distinction between time, as in duration, and time as in era.  Lucy starts of in 2016 as a woman of about 35 years old.  She gets into the eye and shoots back to 1865 in a matter of ten seconds.  But she isn't 151 years younger.  She is still ten seconds older.  So her timeline continues forward in duration, second by second, tick, tick, tick, regardless of whether she jumps around from one era to another.

Flynn jumps back to 1865 to make a change.  What ever his plan, it will take him time (as in duration) to accomplish it.  Let's say 45 minutes, because this is a one-hour show.   So, 45 minutes time (as in duration) after Flynn jumps, his actions will cause a revision to time (as in era) and propagating right up to the present time (era).  And that change will affect their present-day knowledge of history and what should have happened, and might eliminate the eye, their lab, and their very selves.

That is why they can't wait about in the present era after Flynn jumps.  So, they have to follow him into an earlier era immediately, so he doesn't have time to achieve his goal of altering that era and thereby the present era.  Because if that happens, they (in the present era) won't remember that there is a change that needs to be reversed, and indeed they might not exist at all.  

What I don't understand is why they have to jump to the same exact era that he does.  Flynn jumps to April 15th, but they don't have to, do they?  They could jump to April 8th and have an entire week to prepare for his arrival.  

Edited October 11, 2016 by Netfoot
spelling

[sjohnson]

Before the war, Johnson was notorious for his championing poor whites versus the planters. It was unexpected but welcome that he was susceptible to their flattery. And he was a virulent racist. As a result, Johnson had a very lenient reconstruction policy. There was absolutely none of that alleged tyranny of carpetbaggers and scallywags provoking KKK defense of white womanhood etc. But while Johnson allowed the planters their reconstruction they passed vicious laws (usually called Black Codes) that went very, very far towards keeping African-Americans in a de facto slavery. This was a monstrous injustice, nearly as much an offense against peace as the de jure slavery which preceded it. When suffrage was extended to the freedmen by Congress, after Johnson's protection of for the slavers was withdrawn because he was so weakened by his near conviction, the  Black Reconstruction governments did things like promote education, etc., the sorts of things the morally and socially backward eschewed. That sort of thing of course was perceived as mere demagogy by the parasitic planter class, who supported, covertly and overtly, mass organized terror to slowly repress the majority of the population. Under Grant, the military exercised some limited protection to the people. Of course, the reactionaries libeled and slandered popular government as tyranny. In a corrupt bargain over the disputed election of 1876, protection was withdrawn from the people in the south. Without the military, all the southern government lapsed back into control of the same old scum. The process culminated in the Jim Crow regime, a de jure system of discrimination, informally enforced by terror, notably by lynching. The same people of course who were outraged by the enormities of the Congressional (or Black) Reconstruction steadfastly opposed a federal law against lynching.

Short version, the D.W. Griffith Birth of a Nation and Gone with the Wind are contemptible for their dishonesty. But the supposedly bad Free State of Jones was unacceptably true to life.

Edited October 11, 2016 by sjohnson

[Shanna Marie]

9 hours ago, Shaynaa said:

Also, I think whats his name's dead wife will show up at some point.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure there's bound to be an episode in which they return from the past and his wife is alive in the present they return to, which will then make him terrified to travel into the past again, for fear they'll change something that will make her dead again. In fact, I kind of thought that's where they were going in this episode when the doctor asked if there was anyone they should call to bring him home. I was just waiting for someone to ask why he'd call a cab instead of calling his wife, so that would be the "we changed the present!" twist for the episode. So, it was probably setup for a future episode, establishing that he has no one to call, so the change will be obvious when his wife shows up.

I was trying to figure out if we were supposed to recognize the fiance. I was expecting it to be the colleague from the first episode, and then I thought he looked a lot like Lincoln's son and was trying to figure out if it was the same actor and he was maybe meant to be a reincarnation, or something.

Although their scramble for names and using things from pop culture is amusing, you'd think that if they're trying to not upset the timeline, that would be something they'd prepare in advance. It wouldn't take too long to do a search on the most common given names for people of that age in that era and find some last names, with a search to make sure no one with that full name had made any impact on history. Now that they know they're going to be doing this repeatedly, it would make sense for them to come up with a few standard aliases that are safe to use in various eras. There are some names that have been consistently used for the past few hundred years that wouldn't stand out in any time period that they could use whenever they go. They shouldn't be standing there going, "Uhhhhhh," when asked their names while in the past.

[meep.meep]

3 hours ago, withanaich said:

 

That is exactly what happened. They showed them giving her money in the first episode (which she then used to buy a newspaper). It's just not very interesting to show them handing her pocket money every week, but we can assume they are given money along with period clothing on each trip. Not as interesting as watching someone trying to figure out a corset and hoop skirt, I guess.

Of course they travelled to an era where you couldn't go to a store a buy a dress.  You bought cloth and made it yourself, or went to a dress maker and had one made.  Either way, it took days.  The sewing machine hadn't been invented yet.  But we'll hand wave about that......

I didn't recognize the fiancee either and thought he would surely be someone we'd seen before.

[withanaich]

I think a lot of people were assuming the fiance would be the guy at the university who didn't want to give her tenure in the first episode. Then I thought it was the same actor who played Lincoln's son (if not a reincarnation then a wink-nod sort of thing), but the guy isn't tall enough. But from the previews for next week, it sounds like she's never seen this guy before in her life. Maybe he's another Hindenburg descendant?

I can't tell you how much I hope what's his face's wife IS alive when they get back from one of their trips, and he refuses to go into the past again because he doesn't want to leave her or risk changing things back. Okay. Bye-bye, blandy. I'm not interested in the inevitable "sexual" "tension" they're going to try to force between him and Lucy, or the big "reveal" of how he's responsible for her death, followed by Lucy helping him let go of his guilt. 

Quote

Although their scramble for names and using things from pop culture is amusing, you'd think that if they're trying to not upset the timeline, that would be something they'd prepare in advance.

Agreed. It was funny once or twice (even though the first time was RUINED by the promos). And they don't even need to do a lot of research before each trip, they could pick one alias and stick with it. Something like "Jane" or "John" would be uniformly safe and nondescript. 

[saber5055]

What I don't get is how the people in the project remember both the OLD history and the NEW IMPROVED history. Wouldn't the old stuff be completely erased and change in their now-current history books? Or is their "bunker" immune to change? I also wonder why they don't travel back to a day before the "big day" so they can prepare better. Although I guess that wouldn't fit into the allotted 45 minutes. And a big YES to the need to disguise the Flying Eyeball so it isn't stolen. If it's the lifeboat, where's the lifeboat for the lifeboat? And I totally would have saved Lincoln, history be danged. Also wonder why only Lucy's backstory keeps changing and no one else's. If that's the case, save the Hindenburg, save Lincoln.

[Broderbits]

59 minutes ago, meep.meep said:

 The sewing machine hadn't been invented yet.

Elias Howe invented his sewing machine in 1845, and by the 1850's there were many sewing machine companies. By the 1860's simple ready-made dresses would have been available, especially in a big city. Maybe she got a hotel maid to help with fitting the bodice, maybe there was some kind of fancy dress resale shop, IDK.

[Netfoot]

3 minutes ago, saber5055 said:

What I don't get is how the people in the project remember both the OLD history and the NEW IMPROVED history. Wouldn't the old stuff be completely erased and change in their now-current history books? Or is their "bunker" immune to change?

The people in the bunker don't remember the old.  They only remember the new.  Only the mice who travel in the eye remember both histories -- perhaps because they were outside of the timeline when it changed?

[Chaos Theory]

1 minute ago, saber5055 said:

What I don't get is how the people in the project remember both the OLD history and the NEW IMPROVED history. Wouldn't the old stuff be completely erased and change in their now-current history books? Or is their "bunker" immune to change? I also wonder why they don't travel back to a day before the "big day" so they can prepare better. Although I guess that wouldn't fit into the allotted 45 minutes. And a big YES to the need to disguise the Flying Eyeball so it isn't stolen. If it's the lifeboat, where's the lifeboat for the lifeboat? And I totally would have saved Lincoln, history be danged. Also wonder why only Lucy's backstory keeps changing and no one else's. If that's the case, save the Hindenburg, save Lincoln.

They don't.  The people back at the "base camp" think history hasn't changed.  The three travelers are the ones who remember because they are the ones changing history.  Every time they go back they are "hey that isn't how it happened.  Oh hey look at what I did,"  and the others look at them kinda funny.  

I think Lucy's history keeps changing because she is deeply connected to the main mystery.  The reason why she still exists but her sister didn't was interesting.  That her "father" isn't her father.  So who is.  I also would find it kinda funny if her finance keeps changing.  That would be a good "Murphy Browns Secretary" plot device or maybe the finance is connected to the mystery as well.  

I don't really care that the "Flying Eyeball" doesn't get hidden better or discovered.  It might just be a plot device that needs to be hand waved or maybe one episode it will but honestly the show works for me more then it doesn't so I will put it in the same category as The Doctor's phone box and I will just say go with it.  

It is an interesting debate on how much history would change if Lincoln had lived and if you had the chance would you save him?  The concept of fixed points is one that appears in alot of time travel shows.  Some things you can change.  Some you can't.  Some people you can save and change their lives (like the Negro infantry members that Rufus told to go North and not south)  but some you cannot.    I do however really like that the show is not afraid to at least temporarily play with the events of history.  

[NorthstarATL]

They should consider adding a medic to the travel team, or give them all a crash course in first aid, etc. I was disappointed that Lucy didn't grab the water pitcher, rather than dig around for the gun. She was already familiar with its location and heft. I like that the timeline always changes somewhat when they return.

19 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

 I also would find it kinda funny if her finance keeps changing.  That would be a good "Murphy Browns Secretary" plot device or maybe the finance is connected to the mystery as well.

LOL! That would be great! She should have interrupted weddings every week, with a time travel trip calling her away!

I hope that we will inevitably get the episode where they change something seemingly for the best and find out the opposite was true upon their return, just to quell the second-guessing among the travelers.

 Also, history may have changed, but society did not, and I doubt that Lucy's actress would actually have a school named after her. Heroic women have been ignored throughout history.

[Kromm]

56 minutes ago, saber5055 said:

What I don't get is how the people in the project remember both the OLD history and the NEW IMPROVED history. Wouldn't the old stuff be completely erased and change in their now-current history books? Or is their "bunker" immune to change?

Huh?

The people in the project aren't remembering the old history. In fact they've made a point of showing us at least twice that they definitely DON'T.

They had them parroting back things the time travelers said in disbelief. Is it possible you heard them repeat claims from the time travelers and misheard that as the project people saying it themselves?

Edited October 11, 2016 by Kromm

[Netfoot]

1 hour ago, Chaos Theory said:

I don't really care that the "Flying Eyeball" doesn't get hidden better or discovered.

Perhaps its discovery will be a key issue in a future episode.  Surprised if not!

[Shanna Marie]

3 hours ago, withanaich said:

Something like "Jane" or "John" would be uniformly safe and nondescript. 

I would say that "John Smith" would be a safe name for one of the men, but that's already being used by another time traveler and might cause confusion or some scary cases of mistaken identity. "Oh, him? Shoot him now before he causes more trouble!"

I wonder if the present will ever have changed enough that they reach the point of just saying "Oh, screw it," about changing history and let themselves fix things without any hand wringing.

[KaveDweller]

S

5 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

Yeah, I'm pretty sure there's bound to be an episode in which they return from the past and his wife is alive in the present they return to, which will then make him terrified to travel into the past again, for fear they'll change something that will make her dead again. In fact, I kind of thought that's where they were going in this episode when the doctor asked if there was anyone they should call to bring him home. I was just waiting for someone to ask why he'd call a cab instead of calling his wife, so that would be the "we changed the present!" twist for the episode. So, it was probably setup for a future episode, establishing that he has no one to call, so the change will be obvious when his wife shows up.

 

 

The wife will come back to life, but only after Lucy and the guy kiss or sleep together or something.

[iMonrey]

I spent the entire episode wondering where I'd seen the actor who played Lincoln's son before (he was in The Mysteries of Laura, for anyone else who was scratching their head); then when Lucy met her fiance at the end, for a second I thought it was the same actor. But no - it was the guy who played Killian on Witches of East End (hello, Killian!). But it might have been interesting if they'd used the same actor, in a Dark Shadows reincarnation sort of way. 

But enough about me. Last week I said I thought the show was a little clunky, and this week I think I've pinpointed my issue with it. It's rushed. 

Each episode has a strong enough premise for an entire movie. Going back in time, for one single historical event, to preserve it, or change it, or just witness it? That could be a movie. Instead, we've got weekly episodic adventures like these stuffed into about 40 minutes. It makes everything feel sort of superficial and hurried. I think it might be better if each adventure in the past was stretched out over two or three episodes. The show feels a little unambitious considering its high end premise.  A bit of a letdown to see it having to conform to network TV formula.

[tennisgurl]

Not a bad follow up to the pilot, but it does make me wonder how long this can keep up, or if they're going to have to change things up if they want to keep the series going. Not that American history does not have a lot of important moments and historical periods, but they seem to be hitting a lot of the highlights pretty quickly. Maybe go to some more obscure events, or they have to start traveling to various world events, if the bad guys increase their scope. 

Speaking of the bad guys, I continue to wonder if they are even really the bad guys. Maybe they do have some kind of noble goal? Or maybe they're trying to ensure a different time line, and the one we all remember (Hindenburg goes down accidentally, Booth kills Lincoln) is actually wrong? Plot twist! 

I wonder if the time line will change every time they come back, but just in little ways. Although, it would be kind of cool to see a full on obvious alternate universe pop up for an episode. 

For a second, I totally thought the guy playing Lucy's fiance was the same guy who played Robert Lincoln, like a reincarnation thing. Guess that would have been a little silly. Maybe.  

[DFWGina]

I am loving this show!  It is my favorite of the new shows and is better than some of the returning shows (looking at you Blacklist and How to Get Away with Murder.)

So was it the same actor as playing Robert Lincoln or not?  I thought it was but seems like we have differing opinions?

[Netfoot]

13 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Although, it would be kind of cool to see a full on obvious alternate universe pop up for an episode. 

A drastic enough change might cause the team in the bunker to refuse them access to the Flying Eyeball.  Then they could have an entire episode in the present where they have to steal the Flying Eyeball to go back and intervene.

[sjohnson]

Not to nitpick...well, yeah, come to think of it, I am nitpicking here, so sue me: The Eyeball never flies. It's always on the ground, first now, second then. But it never once rises up into the air!

[JackONeill]

Hey, what would happen if these people ran into Sam Beckett? Someone call Ziggy!

[withanaich]

I actually like the speedy pace of the show. I noticed that right away in the pilot, that they weren't messing about dragging things out (with the exception of the mystery of Flynn's intentions). Unless they're going to give each historical event a season's worth of scrutiny, they might as well get right to it. Plus, the fact that they have to get to the past in a hurry (to stop Flynn) and get back in a hurry (so they don't mess up the timeline too much) heightens the sense of urgency. If this were a documentary show, then I would be incredibly annoyed that each event was only getting 45 or so minutes. But, as it's a network drama that manages to be entertaining without also being completely stupid, I can let it slide.

[dubbel zout]

44 minutes ago, DFWGina said:

So was it the same actor as playing Robert Lincoln or not?

No. Neal Bledsoe was Robert Lincoln; the fiancé was...someone else. Lucy's reaction to the guy, as well as his kiss, made it clear she'd never seen him before.

[Chaos Theory]

I actually kind of like the debate about the wife vs the sister.  Its an interesting one time travel wise.  What makes the sister worth saving and not the wife?  How can they be sure that the sister's timeline is the correct one?  The the timeline Lucy remembers is the one unaffected by whatever else is going on?   For all we know the wife shouldn't have died and the the sister never really existed in the first place.    What gives them the right to bungle around in time?  What gives anyone?  

We are only two episodes in and yes the show has its.....issues but it is still a better then it is bad.  Then again I have a soft spot for time travel shows and I like that this one is at least attempting to ask questions about time and what it means to change the things that already happened.  It is a basic cable show so I am not expecting great art but so far I am enjoying at least most of it.  I like Lucy and Rufus.   The show does need to figure out what to do with the other guy.  I read a review saying that the least interesting character running through time should be the straight cis white guy which is a good point one I mostly agree with.  The show does need to figure out something more interesting to do with him if they want to keep him relevant.  Unless his entire storyline is being counterpoint to Lucy and Rufus which isn't necessarily a bad thing.  

[Cobb Salad]

I wonder if in the revised present Lucy wrote her book on Lincoln and if so what does it say about the day of the assasination since Booth didn't assasinate Lincoln anymore.  

I'm not getting why Lucy isn't "remembering" the details of her new present but I guess that adds to the mystery of what is happening when she time travels.  So far this show has a different take on the travel to historical time periods than what I've seen before but I wonder how much mileage it has.  I'd wonder if it would get more personal over time. 

[Chaos Theory]

7 minutes ago, Cobb Salad said:

I wonder if in the revised present Lucy wrote her book on Lincoln and if so what does it say about the day of the assasination since Booth didn't assasinate Lincoln anymore.  

I'm not getting why Lucy isn't "remembering" the details of her new present but I guess that adds to the mystery of what is happening when she time travels.  So far this show has a different take on the travel to historical time periods than what I've seen before but I wonder how much mileage it has.  I'd wonder if it would get more personal over time. 

Time travelers never remember the changed history its a.....trope?  I guess you'd call it. It even makes sense because you are the one doing the traveling and history doesn't change for you instead it is changing around you because of you.  

[JackONeill]

If she gets her sister back won't that be the timeline where her mother is dying? Sounds like a problem to me.

[dargosmydaddy]

5 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

It is an interesting debate on how much history would change if Lincoln had lived and if you had the chance would you save him?  The concept of fixed points is one that appears in alot of time travel shows.  Some things you can change.  Some you can't.  Some people you can save and change their lives (like the Negro infantry members that Rufus told to go North and not south)  but some you cannot.    I do however really like that the show is not afraid to at least temporarily play with the events of history.

At first when the main three were debating "let Lincoln live," etc ., I was annoyed because this is not their mission, and they've already seen how deviating even slightly from history can have a big ripple effect. Then I got less annoyed with the travelers and more annoyed with the scientists that they did not ensure that their travelers fully realized the ramifications of what they were doing AND were on board with it before sending them on all these missions. Seriously, why can't they brief them a little better (including providing aliases along with the clothes)? This is a disaster waiting to happen if they're going to debate morals every week and continue to change things anyway (even if it's just minor things like warning the soldier and not letting Seward get gravely injured).

 

That said, I  really like the chemistry all three leads have with one another, and I'm a sucker for the period settings and costumes.