S01.E02: Chestnut

[parandroid]

2 hours ago, Izeinwinter said:

But the company also does not wish to become a destination for child-abuse tourism. That would be a pr nightmare.

I don't agree. Rape, scalping, stabbing, and murder would provide plenty of PR nightmares. Those are avoided only because the hosts are positioned as not being alive. Given that, child abuse wouldn't present a new PR problem. Why would it be ok to kill the parent, but not ok to kill the child? Its clearly allowed for a host to shoot another (adult) host. Why wouldn't a host shooting (or worse) a child host not be treated the same way?

The target being alive seems to be the main demarcator of whether the action is legal / allowed or not. Hence the artificial animals. They aren't alive, so they can be shot at, skinned,  or whatever.

Yeah. Its pretty horrific if one thinks through all the implications of these policies. If it is not possible to tell if the hosts are real or not, should the hosts have a different legal system be applied to them? I think this is what the show is asking us to consider. The guests are clearly in two camps. William thinks they are real and hence his reluctance to cheat on his significant other with the changing room host. Whereas his friend thinks they are not and thus feels free to interact with them in ways he would not use with real people.

[AimingforYoko]

Holy shit, that scene when Maeve woke up from her repair....

What the fuck is Bernard up to with Delores?

[dgpolo]

On 10/7/2016 at 10:28 PM, stanleyk said:

I immediately assumed Ford had created an image of, perhaps, a child of his that had died.

I thought is was himself as a child, remembering things his father had said and the first imagining of his 'church'

 

ETA: saw my above theory had already been mentioned by others, sorry, so I'll just say I agree :) also to add:

 

There have been several images now of people swiping their feet in the dirt, Abernathy when he found the picture (I thought this was an accident, I'm not too sure about that anymore) Ford did it just before the kid joined him, Dolores when she dug up the gun. Something or nothing?

I'm assuming at the moment that her gun will work against guests.

I'm a bit confused about Maeve's dream. If it was a 'flashback' then how did she have the Native American from the 'new' story? Unless this show is playing more with time than has been indicated so far how can she dream of the 'past' that is only now being written?

Edited October 10, 2016 by dgpolo
clarification

[AuntiePam]

42 minutes ago, dgpolo said:

I thought is was himself as a child, remembering things his father had said and the first imagining of his 'church'

 

I thought we were seeing an oil drilling rig, until the camera panned to the cross on top.  Did he mention a church?

Is his name Ford because of John Ford's westerns? 

[Macbeth]

On 10/8/2016 at 1:11 AM, thuganomics85 said:

I'm starting to think every episode is going to have Teddy get killed in some form or another.  It's almost becoming darkly comical.  Poor Teddy. James Mardsen's characters just can't catch a break, huh?

Well at least he gets to keep the pretty.  At the end of his day he is probably going to be brutalized - but in the next scene he is back to being pretty again.

Timothy Olyphant's character Bullock ( a stunning individual) on Deadwood basically spent the first 2 seasons with a busted face.  As soon as Bullock's face managed to heal at the end of the S1 - He gets beaten again.  I loved Deadwood - but don't mess with the pretty.

Male writers at times will take out some of their animosity on those men who have been blessed so well in their appearances.  I don't think they get any joy seeing Teddy get some.

Edited October 10, 2016 by Macbeth

[arc]

On 10/8/2016 at 9:05 AM, dr pepper said:

I don't get how killing a robot's mother, extended family, and neighbors causes her to voice a secret plus commentary "it's not for you". That's video game logic.

I didn't take it as videogame logic. (Westworld is like an open-world videogame like GTA or Red Dead Redemption (both were name checked at the NYCC panel today) but without a designed set of goals or even punishments. Guests can do whatever they want and the hosts can't genuinely fight back. It is very possible to lose at a specific task in a game, or even when just messing around, the internal systems (enemy NPCs ("non player characters"), police, etc, would step in to (somewhat) keep a player in check.

I'm digressing. Anyways, when the girl broke character, I didn't think that was part of the "how to find the maze" quest. We know the control room had already taken an interest in TMIB around this time. We've also already seen that they can adjust host programming in real time, like when they demoted Maeve and made the other prostitute the madam. I assumed control took over the girl directly to speak to TMIB. Which seems like a big break in protocol, but then again if the maze is part of the experience for guests, or at least elite guests, then maybe control figured just telling him would be better for the other guests' experiences than having him kill off a bunch more hosts.

[Ottis]

I'm glad this episode sort of addressed why the hosts have their own conversations when no guests are around. That is puzzling to me, not because they do so but because the content seems so varied. What is the purpose? It confused me enough to twice think a human was killed. 

Also, I'm intrigued that the changing room host understands the guest's question about whether she is real, while other hosts seem confused by it. Thought her answer was too anvilish, though.

Edited October 10, 2016 by Ottis

[dgpolo]

2 minutes ago, Ottis said:

I'm glad this episode sort of addressed why the hosts have their own conversations when no guests are around. That is puzzling to me, not because they do so but because the content seems so varied. What is the purpose?

Me too! it was bothering me so much last week when Dolores and her father kept having that conversation in the morning about her having to do errands and then go paint. There were no guests around so why do that? (except that in a meta way it creates doubt in the audience about who is 'real' and who is not)

[Yakimaman]

I thought the episode was boring.  And I am so tired of hearing the word "fuck".  

[RandomWatcher]

Old Scott Summers is like the Kenny of this series.

[pbutler111]

I was kind of excited for this series, but the violence is just too much for me. Pity.

[arc]

43 minutes ago, dgpolo said:

Me too! it was bothering me so much last week when Dolores and her father kept having that conversation in the morning about her having to do errands and then go paint. There were no guests around so why do that? (except that in a meta way it creates doubt in the audience about who is 'real' and who is not)

Just from a functional perspective, it makes sense to have the world running at all times so any guests who wander by - like the family did that one time we saw her painting - don't find her in a low power "sleep" state. Would break immersion.

That doesn't quite explain why she has a semi (?) scripted conversation with her dad before the guests arrive, but I guess the hosts have to wake up that first morning anyhow so they might as well get right into their storylines.

[bmoore4026]

Damn, Thandie Newton nearly moved me to tears at the end when she was running scared through the facility and comes across all those other Hosts being worked on or hosed down.  That, along with Maeve remembering her past life as a frontier woman with a daughter, was very well acted.

Logan is totally going to upload his "Odyssey on Red River" scenario regardless, isn't he?  This should be fun.

I can't help but think of Anthony Hopkins' character as Walt Disney if he were ageless and not dead.  Just disenchanted by his own creations and the people around him for making more of the same.

Who else thinks that Dr. Lowe is the one making The Hosts remember their past lives?  Maybe he's part of the Synth Underground?  Sorry, that was a Fallout 4 reference.

[magdalene]

Well, this show has accomplished one thing in just the first two episodes - I want every single "human" involved in the running of this park to die at the hands of the suffering and exploited androids.

If that's their intent for the audience they have succeeded admirably.

[AnnaMayWong]

Golly, Gee‼ These 'real' male characters... 

[blugirlami21]

I liked the episode. I can't wait for Teddy to do something other than be killed though. It seemed so extra this time around too.

I too thought that Anthony Hopkins was talking to his younger self. I actually thought the child was just an hallucinationof his younger self.

I don't find it weird that the hosts stories continue when they are by themselves or that they talk to each other when they are alone. It's like a movie that's playing while you are in another room. It doesn't stop just because you're not actively wathing it. Every host has an every day narrative thats basically the same. It changes depending on who they interact with but it has a set beginning, middle, and end.

I do find it very interesting that the programmers are aware of what the man and black is doing but they are allowing to proceed. I also think his sadism has been well established by his actions in the pilot. Everything he continues to do only cements that aspect of his character.

[bmoore4026]

43 minutes ago, BookElitist said:

Golly, Gee‼ These 'real' male characters... 

That's HBO for ya

[Gobi]

I am intrigued by the theory that the latest newcomer story is a flashback to TMIB's origin. For various reasons, that I don't have time now to post, I don't think it is.

My own theory is that the other newcomer is a host, one that was sent out into the real world for the ultimate test. This would explain his unwillingness to engage in any violence, as he would have  been programmed that way to avoid any unfortunate incidents. His friend doesn't even know it.

Consider his first appearance in the show: waking up on a train, exactly like James Marsden's character. Consider also: Delores' reaction to him, somehow she recognizes that he is a host.

He may even have a subconscious awareness of his nature, another  reason why he shuns sex and violence with the other hosts, and is always friendly towards them.

ETA: Notice also, that when he arrived at Sweetwater and "Grizzly Adams" bumped into him in an obvious invitation to a duel, he declined the same way Marsden did.

Edited October 10, 2016 by Gobi

[Ottis]

Quote

 

Just from a functional perspective, it makes sense to have the world running at all times so any guests who wander by - like the family did that one time we saw her painting - don't find her in a low power "sleep" state. Would break immersion.

That doesn't quite explain why she has a semi (?) scripted conversation with her dad before the guests arrive, but I guess the hosts have to wake up that first morning anyhow so they might as well get right into their storylines.

 

Or any of the other half dozen conversations between hosts that we hear, in the bar and elsewhere. I can see them saying hello, or certain lines about their surroundings. But these hosts have discussions about life, with no guests around, that are essentially unnecessary. They would know when a guest gets close, and can put in motion what they need to. 

I still don't understand how any guests knows who is another guest. Did I miss an explanation?

[BooBear]

3 minutes ago, Ottis said:

I still don't understand how any guests knows who is another guest. Did I miss an explanation?

No they didn't give it yet. I am sure they are keeping that until the end so we will watch for it.  Watched this again last night and I am wondering more about the theory that William is MIB. William gets off the train and bumps into Grizzly Adams and runs into "Union" recruiting. Almost nothing about William's story seems the same was what we saw last week as sort of the recurring Sweetwater storyline. Though some things are similar.  Teddy isn't in William's world. 

[Tarasme]

Westworld is quickly becoming a favorite this season

14 minutes ago, BooBear said:

No they didn't give it yet. I am sure they are keeping that until the end so we will watch for it.  Watched this again last night and I am wondering more about the theory that William is MIB. William gets off the train and bumps into Grizzly Adams and runs into "Union" recruiting. Almost nothing about William's story seems the same was what we saw last week as sort of the recurring Sweetwater storyline. Though some things are similar.  Teddy isn't in William's world. 

Except, as another poster pointed out, Delores is still the "girl next door" character... loading her horse, dropping the can... Last week's plot regarding her time with MIB would suggest she was in another role three decades ago... And is there really a 30 gap between Jimmy Simpson and Ed Harris?!? :::checking now::::

1. I don't think there's anything MIB is doing that isn't known or sanctioned by development. His deeper game is there for anybody that wants it- it's not a super secret guests aren't supposed to be there aspect- maybe development has conviced MIB that's he's now doing something that no one else has or can do but that's as much of trick as the rest of the park.

2. What horrific things humans are capable of. Whether or not the hosts are overwrought stuffed toys or beings on the dawn of awareness, the souls that perpetrate such horror upon them- from guests to staff- are corrupted and bent beyond the telling. Maybe Simpson's character will find a way to explore who he can be that isn't a winding narrow staircase of descent into oblivion. 

3. I pray Ford's new as yet untold story is positive and a show of the benevolent part of humanity. Even if it gets cut down by whatever powers that be, at least it was something conceived and attempted to be brought to fruition.  But... maybe Ford's the most twisted bastard ever and it'll be even more hell for all.

4. I'm not sure what to think of Bernard or his stealthy conversations with Delores.

5. I agree with commentary above that the child in the desert is representative of Ford. I'm not sure what it means that the man can really only talk and share with himself. That he chooses to talk those walks with himself. Maybe nothing; maybe we all are like that- really only comfortable with our inner children. 

[numbnut]

37 minutes ago, BooBear said:

46 minutes ago, Ottis said:

I still don't understand how any guests knows who is another guest. Did I miss an explanation?

No they didn't give it yet. I am sure they are keeping that until the end so we will watch for it.

When William asked about it in the restaurant, his loser friend aimed his gun at someone and said something like "Only one way to find out." They established that guests can't get shot or stabbed, so maybe that's the only way to know (other than to ask someone if they're a guest). 

Edited October 10, 2016 by numbnut

[Netfoot]

2 hours ago, Gobi said:

I am intrigued by the theory that the latest newcomer story is a flashback to TMIB's origin. For various reasons, that I don't have time now to post, I don't think it is.

I don't think that is the case.  At least I hope not.  They were interacting with present-day characters.  If it's a flashback to TMIB's earliest visits to the park, then Delores has been dropping that can of peaches(?) every day for thirty years.  Possible?  Surely.  But wouldn't there be some subtle indication that we were looking at a frame of reference largely different in time from the remainder of the narative?  Rather than leaving us wondering?

I'm sure we will get to experience the past.  Without doubt we will, at some stage, see who dropped the photograph, and who buried the six-gun.  As well as what/why TMIB knows so much about the inner working of the park, and why he's out to move beyond regular game-play.  But we have already seen unquestionable flashes of the past, in the form of certain hosts re-surfacing memories.  I think that theme will continue, and expand.  

[arc]

31 minutes ago, numbnut said:

When William asked about it in the restaurant, his loser friend aimed his gun at someone and said something like "Only one way to find out." They established that guests can't get shot or stabbed, so maybe that's the only way to know (other than to ask someone if they're a guest). 

I can buy that the guns discern who's a guest vs who's a host. But how would knives? How would a guest's fist? (Saloon fistfights were definitely a part of Wild West myths, after all.)

[Duke2801]

On ‎10‎/‎8‎/‎2016 at 10:25 AM, Ms.McGregor said:

I'm probably reading too much into it, and watch too many tv shows, but to me it felt like the entire end scene with the scriptwriter's "Will make it look like Hieronymus Bosch was painting kittens"/vivisection/self-cannibalism speech then Ford's take-down of it was a meta commentary on George R.R. Martin/GoT.  Which I wholeheartedly endorse.

I saw it more as a foreshadowing of what is to come in future episodes.  

[Duke2801]

14 minutes ago, Netfoot said:

I don't think that is the case.  At least I hope not.  They were interacting with present-day characters.  If it's a flashback to TMIB's earliest visits to the park, then Delores has been dropping that can of peaches(?) every day for thirty years.  Possible?  Surely.  But wouldn't there be some subtle indication that we were looking at a frame of reference largely different in time from the remainder of the narative?  Rather than leaving us wondering?

I'm sure we will get to experience the past.  Without doubt we will, at some stage, see who dropped the photograph, and who buried the six-gun.  As well as what/why TMIB knows so much about the inner working of the park, and why he's out to move beyond regular game-play.  But we have already seen unquestionable flashes of the past, in the form of certain hosts re-surfacing memories.  I think that theme will continue, and expand.  

I'm definitely not 100% on board the theory that New White Hat Guy (who I still can only see as a McPoyle!) is the MIB 30 years ago.  But, at the same time, I don't think that the "can dropping scene" proves or disproves anything.  Storylines get recycled.  Maybe she was in her "drop the can" loop back in 1973 to 1975 .... and then a prostitute from 1975 to 1980, etc... a sheriff's wife from 1980 to 1990...  and then eventually brought back to the Delores/cans storyline. 

9 hours ago, bmoore4026 said:

Damn, Thandie Newton nearly moved me to tears at the end when she was running scared through the facility and comes across all those other Hosts being worked on or hosed down.  That, along with Maeve remembering her past life as a frontier woman with a daughter, was very well acted.

Logan is totally going to upload his "Odyssey on Red River" scenario regardless, isn't he?  This should be fun.

I can't help but think of Anthony Hopkins' character as Walt Disney if he were ageless and not dead.  Just disenchanted by his own creations and the people around him for making more of the same.

Who else thinks that Dr. Lowe is the one making The Hosts remember their past lives?  Maybe he's part of the Synth Underground?  Sorry, that was a Fallout 4 reference.

She's so wonderfully talented.  NOt to mention one of the most beautiful actresses of our time as well.  (imo)

12 hours ago, dgpolo said:

I thought is was himself as a child, remembering things his father had said and the first imagining of his 'church'

 

ETA: saw my above theory had already been mentioned by others, sorry, so I'll just say I agree :) also to add:

 

There have been several images now of people swiping their feet in the dirt, Abernathy when he found the picture (I thought this was an accident, I'm not too sure about that anymore) Ford did it just before the kid joined him, Dolores when she dug up the gun. Something or nothing?

I'm assuming at the moment that her gun will work against guests.

I'm a bit confused about Maeve's dream. If it was a 'flashback' then how did she have the Native American from the 'new' story? Unless this show is playing more with time than has been indicated so far how can she dream of the 'past' that is only now being written?

I didn't get the sense that the Native America in Maeve's dream/flashback was the same Native American who was primed to be in Annoying British Guy's new "Odyssey" storyline. 

[Dobian]

A couple of logical issues with the show so far. When the new guest (House of Cards Guy) goes through the old-timey door at the end of the hallway and emerges in the western bar, ok, but then the bar starts moving and it's a train.  But the bar was physically attached to the facility by that door.  Did I miss something?  And I would like an explanation of how the guns work.  Robots can shoot each other so obviously it's live ammo.  But when they shoot at guests the rounds still fire but they're blanks?  Obviously if a guest accidentally shot at  another guest the same thing would happen.  So an explanation of the gun tech would be nice.  Of course in real life this whole thing would never work and guests would be getting injured and killed all the time from stray bullets, and what if a robot attacked with a knife?  The guests must all sign liability waivers.

I'll want to learn more about who Ed Harris the Sociopath really is.  Abusive British Showrunner (I really need to learn these characters' names) needs to get his ass kicked.

Edited October 10, 2016 by Dobian

[djsunyc]

i not sure if i'm recalling this right but didn't hemsworth3:ragnorak say TMIB can get whatever he wants?  that's an obvious indicator that he is a very important person.  in what way, i have no clue.

also, i think william choosing the white hat means he is going to be defending the machines - probably the counter to TMIB.  (a nod to lost?)

[Pop Tart]

Quote

A couple of logical issues with the show so far. When the new guest (House of Cards Guy) goes through the old-timey door at the end of the hallway and emerges in the western bar, ok, but then the bar starts moving and it's a train.  But the bar was physically attached to the facility by that door.  Did I miss something?

I thought at first that he was in the saloon when he walked through the door, but then realized the women were dressed much more respectably and thought maybe not saloon, but another dining establishment/club, but when it started moving realized it was a train car, possibly the dining car? Trains back then did have more elaborate decor in the higher class sections.

[NorthstarATL]

15 hours ago, parandroid said:

I don't agree. Rape, scalping, stabbing, and murder would provide plenty of PR nightmares. Those are avoided only because the hosts are positioned as not being alive. Given that, child abuse wouldn't present a new PR problem. Why would it be ok to kill the parent, but not ok to kill the child? Its clearly allowed for a host to shoot another (adult) host. Why wouldn't a host shooting (or worse) a child host not be treated the same way?

The target being alive seems to be the main demarcator of whether the action is legal / allowed or not. Hence the artificial animals. They aren't alive, so they can be shot at, skinned,  or whatever.

Yeah. Its pretty horrific if one thinks through all the implications of these policies. If it is not possible to tell if the hosts are real or not, should the hosts have a different legal system be applied to them? I think this is what the show is asking us to consider. The guests are clearly in two camps. William thinks they are real and hence his reluctance to cheat on his significant other with the changing room host. Whereas his friend thinks they are not and thus feels free to interact with them in ways he would not use with real people.

In  the Sims games children ordinarily cannot be killed, even by fire. They are simply removed from the game by NPCs or something (never tried it myself), and I'm thinking that perhaps the Park might work in the same manner.

44 minutes ago, Dobian said:

A couple of logical issues with the show so far. When the new guest (House of Cards Guy) goes through the old-timey door at the end of the hallway and emerges in the western bar, ok, but then the bar starts moving and it's a train.  But the bar was physically attached to the facility by that door.  Did I miss something?  And I would like an explanation of how the guns work.  Robots can shoot each other so obviously it's live ammo.  But when they shoot at guests the rounds still fire but they're blanks?  Obviously if a guest accidentally shot at  another guest the same thing would happen.  So an explanation of the gun tech would be nice.  Of course in real life this whole thing would never work and guests would be getting injured and killed all the time from stray bullets, and what if a robot attacked with a knife?The guests must all sign liability waivers.

Is it possible that shots are being heard and a target responds, but there are no real bullets traveling through the air? I have to rewatch.

12 hours ago, Ottis said:

'm glad this episode sort of addressed why the hosts have their own conversations when no guests are around. That is puzzling to me, not because they do so but because the content seems so varied. What is the purpose? It confused me enough to twice think a human was killed. 

I'm comparing again to the Sims (sorry), but the "characters" do continue interactions in other parts of the "world" even when one is not playing them. Eventually they would repeat certain things, though, but it would be random. (Then again, a lot of human conversation is like that.)

13 hours ago, dgpolo said:

I'm a bit confused about Maeve's dream. If it was a 'flashback' then how did she have the Native American from the 'new' story? Unless this show is playing more with time than has been indicated so far how can she dream of the 'past' that is only now being written?

I am assuming that was a previous scenario for the host(ess) which somehow was not wiped.

[vendredi3]

What if we're misunderstanding everything, and the MIB is really just looking for maize?

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

Westworld May Never Explain All Its Rules, And That Would Be Outstanding

On the small Ford moment in S01.E02 that encapsulates what Westworld is doing right.

[BooBear]

45 minutes ago, djsunyc said:

i not sure if i'm recalling this right but didn't hemsworth3:ragnorak say TMIB can get whatever he wants?  that's an obvious indicator that he is a very important person.  in what way, i have no clue.

I was wondering if he wasn't part of the company in some way. CEO / Chairman of the Board / Primary Stockholder of Delos co.  That could be a clue that William is young MIB as when William and his friend are talking he says he thought the friend didn't want to talk about work and the guy goes "this is work."  Makes me wonder if they don't work for Delos co..  

2 hours ago, Tarasme said:

Last week's plot regarding her time with MIB would suggest she was in another role three decades ago...

I think she could have been in may different roles during her time there but always was primarily on the same loop. A guest could pull her out of it for a year or so but back she would go into the same loop. I think we kind of got a little wink last week when MIB picked up the can and then William did this week. It definitely seems like William's visit to the park is, so far, not at the same time as we saw last week. In William's story we only see Delores and the hooker not Mave, not Teddy, and not the search for the bandits.

[dgpolo]

51 minutes ago, NorthstarATL said:

I am assuming that was a previous scenario for the host(ess) which somehow was not wiped.

My point was how can it be a 'previous' scenario if that particular scenario was only now being written. The guys with the painted faces in her dream were part of the 'new story' that Ford said no to.

Unless we don't know when 'now' is and when 'then' was or when 'what will be' takes place.

2 hours ago, Duke2801 said:

I didn't get the sense that the Native America in Maeve's dream/flashback was the same Native American who was primed to be in Annoying British Guy's new "Odyssey" storyline. 

I don't mean the guy that got hit in the face with the tray because Sizemore didn't like his nose, I meant the ones with the lower parts of their faces painted (in what looked like red, white and blue?) they were in Maeve's dream and then were 'introduced' as part of a new storyline that Ford rejected. Wish I knew how to do screencaps so I could show it.

[BooBear]

24 minutes ago, dgpolo said:

My point was how can it be a 'previous' scenario if that particular scenario was only now being written. The guys with the painted faces in her dream were part of the 'new story' that Ford said no to.

To me it looked like different Native American bad guys that seemed to be from a previous storyline that Mave was in. In that storyline she was a mother not a madam. 

[Tarasme]

17 minutes ago, dgpolo said:

My point was how can it be a 'previous' scenario if that particular scenario was only now being written. The guys with the painted faces in her dream were part of the 'new story' that Ford said no to.

Unless we don't know when 'now' is and when 'then' was or when 'what will be' takes place.

I don't mean the guy that got hit in the face with the tray because Sizemore didn't like his nose, I meant the ones with the lower parts of their faces painted (in what looked like red, white and blue?) they were in Maeve's dream and then were 'introduced' as part of a new storyline that Ford rejected. Wish I knew how to do screencaps so I could show it.

There's also the morphing of the NA into MIB at the end of the nightmare. I don't know that we can trust any narrative from the hosts; its possible Maeve saw any number of NA's being outfitted during her evaluation time. With all the crud the developers have shoved into hosts heads, it would be wonder if they could keep all straight. Her previous character, the mother and child, may have had nothing to do with an "Indian" attack.

[numbnut]

3 hours ago, arc said:

I can buy that the guns discern who's a guest vs who's a host. But how would knives? How would a guest's fist? (Saloon fistfights were definitely a part of Wild West myths, after all.)

I thought I saw a knife get blocked from penetrating the MiB in the fight at Lawrence's hometown, but I need to rewatch to be sure. I'm not sure how hand-to-hand combat would play out.

*slapping forehead* Since Abernathy was once a teacher of Shakespeare, he must have whispered that "violent delights/ends" line (from Romeo and Juliet) to Dolores to transfer the "virus" (and she did the same to Maeve). I still can't guess what Bernard whispered to Abernathy.

[fastiller]

48 minutes ago, dgpolo said:

My point was how can it be a 'previous' scenario if that particular scenario was only now being written. The guys with the painted faces in her dream were part of the 'new story' that Ford said no to.

Unless we don't know when 'now' is and when 'then' was or when 'what will be' takes place.

I don't mean the guy that got hit in the face with the tray because Sizemore didn't like his nose, I meant the ones with the lower parts of their faces painted (in what looked like red, white and blue?) they were in Maeve's dream and then were 'introduced' as part of a new storyline that Ford rejected. Wish I knew how to do screencaps so I could show it.

 

21 minutes ago, BooBear said:

To me it looked like different Native American bad guys that seemed to be from a previous storyline that Mave was in. In that storyline she was a mother not a madam. 

I think they were different Native Americans too.  And I think that memories of the last bad thing that happened (storyline from the film) is part of why Ford said no to ABG's (™ someone above) Odyssey on Red River.

[iMonrey]

We're only 2 episodes in and the show is already starting to annoy me. The premise is starting to feel like an excuse for random violence, much like the zombie genre. I realize that's kind of the whole point of wanting to visit the wild west and live out a dream of participating in shoot 'em ups, but I'm not particularly interested in, or turned on by endless scenes of people getting blown away in numerous, gratuitous ways. 

By the same token, the nudity feels extremely gratuitous. I'm no prude, and I know this is HBO's thing, kind of, but having the robots sit around and walk around in the nude seems lurid and unnecessary, and is only done to titillate. If these androids are created to look exactly like humans down to the last biological detail, then having them sit around and walk around completely naked during diagnostics, upgrades, interrogations, etc. is something that would probably make a lot of the technicians uncomfortable. They're not mannequins, after all.

I also can't figure out why the park directors are letting the Man in Black get away with the scalping. They are clearly aware of what he's doing as evidenced by this episode, where one such monitor noted that he wasted an entire posse and asked his superior if he should "slow him down." So they're watching what all these guests do . . . aren't they aware he scalped one host and has some sort of maze map now in his possession? If they're aware there's some sort of "deeper level" to the game, and that  you have to find clues to it that way, why didn't that guy monitoring him mention it? What does anyone working "behind the scenes" make of this guy?

Quote

The white hat guy looks like Christian Slater.

I actually spent the whole episode thinking that's who it was.

Also - the changing room host is apparently aware that, at the very least, she may be an android? But the ones in the part aren't aware of that? So some do have self awareness and some don't? How does that work?

Edited October 10, 2016 by iMonrey

[VCRTracking]

Quote

By the same token, the nudity feels extremely gratuitous. I'm no prude, and I know this is HBO's thing, kind of, but having the robots sit around and walk around in the nude seems lurid and unnecessary, and is only done to titillate. If these androids are created to look exactly like humans down to the last biological detail, then having them sit around and walk around completely naked during diagnostics, upgrades, interrogations, etc. is something that would probably make a lot of the technicians uncomfortable. They're not mannequins, after all.

No, but they're not thought of as human either. I think if it was your first time working there you would feel uncomfortable, but the employees there seem to have been already used to them and blase about their job. I would like to see the POV of someone who's just been hired on the first day on the job. A "Peggy Olson in the first episode of Mad Men" type of thing.

[scrb]

How does Ed Harris stay in the park so long if it's so expensive?

I don't buy that the park would remain popular for 30 years.  That's a long time if the main gimmicks are that you can kill and screw lifelike robots with impunity.

At some point, people are going to look at people who go to the park regularly as some kind of losers, the same kind of scorn heaped on guys who regularly frequent prostitutes or go to places like the Bunny Ranch repeatedly.

And where is the challenge if you can take down an army of robots singlehandedly because you can't be killed?  It's like using some cheat code in a game.   Maybe fun for some people but only for a short while.  (Though I get that at some point, the show is hinting this situation will change and the robots will get their revenge).

You would also expect some people to denounce how WW brings out the sadism and sociopathic traits in the guests when they think they're killing dozens of people.

[sjohnson]

The techs keeping the androids nude is a power thing. It makes clear they are property and the techs are people. To my thinking, keeping them clothed would blur the lines but *that* would be the uncomfortable thing for the techs. But to be sure, nudity is exactly what the premiums rely on most. HBO's rep for quality has been mystifying to me. Like broadcast or basic cable, they've done fine things, but in the end what really distinguishes them is tits and gore.

But as to the remarks about zombies...look, the thing about zombies is they are about fear of the mob (which often overlaps with concerns about other racial mobs, of course.) The classic western is about a Dream West where the white hero conquers the wilderness, aka Indians, where there are no contentious other races by and large, even to the point the vast majority of westerns downright falsify the historical facts. The very common motif of the Confederate veteran doing something heroic is common for a reason I think. As is the relative rarity of westerns that acknowledge there was a Union, very few of which portray a Union vet as a hero. (The only exception I can think of is Glenn Ford in The Violent Men, unless Wayne in The War Wagon is ex-Union? And no, the dude in Vera Cruz doesn't count.) 

I'm beginning to think this Westworld might be using the robots/androids as symbols of slaves/African-Americans underclass Their irruption into the merely symbolically integrated Westworld is the presence of an underclass in today's society despite the superficial ability of the rulers to insulate themselves from their existence. The zombie-movie moments fit with the implied threat of their rebellion (zombie apocalypse) even as the series plays with sympathizing with the lower orders. 

The thing there is, obviously I should think, is that when your symbol of oppressed humans is really inhuman in fictional universe terms, you have a deep wound in the symbolism. It's like the symbols of gays really being monstrous vampires in True Blood, a problem you would have thought HBO would have noticed after a few years.

On the other hand, this suspicion could be wrong. I'm going to have to re-watch the first two episodes.

Edited October 10, 2016 by sjohnson

[Netfoot]

49 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

I also can't figure out why the park directors are letting the Man in Black get away with the scalping.

Perhaps he was injured in an earlier visit to the game, and as a part of the settlement gets to come as often as he likes, stay as long as he chooses and do what ever he wants?  Seeing as we have so little information to go on, there could be literally hundreds of reasons.  

5 minutes ago, scrb said:

I don't buy that the park would remain popular for 30 years.  That's a long time if the main gimmicks are that you can kill and screw lifelike robots with impunity.

How many years have people been flocking to shake hands with Mickey and Goofy?  And they don't even get their rocks off!

[VCRTracking]

Quote

As is the relative rarity of westerns that acknowledge there was a Union, very few of which portray a Union vet as a hero. (The only exception I can think of is Glenn Ford in The Violent Men, unless Wayne in The War Wagon is ex-Union? And no, the dude in Vera Cruz doesn't count.) 

There's George Peppard in How the West Was Won. Other western heroes who were Union soldiers are still in the army after the Civil War(John Ford's Cavalry Trilogy).

Edited October 10, 2016 by VCRTracking

[bmoore4026]

3 hours ago, NorthstarATL said:

In  the Sims games children ordinarily cannot be killed, even by fire. They are simply removed from the game by NPCs or something (never tried it myself), and I'm thinking that perhaps the Park might work in the same manner.

The Sims 100: Westworld expansion pack.  It would not surprise me a bit if the Institute (which is what I'm calling the people who created Westworld) is the future version of EA.  Possibly even Ubisoft and Rockstar.

[parandroid]

1 hour ago, numbnut said:

 

4 hours ago, arc said:

I can buy that the guns discern who's a guest vs who's a host. But how would knives? How would a guest's fist? (Saloon fistfights were definitely a part of Wild West myths, after all.)

I thought I saw a knife get blocked from penetrating the MiB in the fight at Lawrence's hometown, but I need to rewatch to be sure. I'm not sure how hand-to-hand combat would play out.

*slapping forehead* Since Abernathy was once a teacher of Shakespeare, he must have whispered that "violent delights/ends" line (from Romeo and Juliet) to Dolores to transfer the "virus" (and she did the same to Maeve). I still can't guess what Bernard whispered to Abernathy.

 

Answered by the show runners:

Quote

William is told he can’t get hurt in Westworld. But what about being hurt by another guests? What’s to keep a guest from stabbing him thinking he’s a robot? Is there a safe word?

Joy: We talked a lot about the rules of the park. A lot of it isn’t made explicit in the series but there’s something called the Good Samaritan Reflex within the hosts. So say you’re in a bar fight and some guy has a knife and maybe there’s even another guest that you didn’t know and he thinks you’re a host and he’s gonna stab you in the back. In that instance, a good Samaritan host would seamlessly intersect and get in that fight and literally take that knife for you. Now accidents can happen – falling off a cliff and things like that. But you know it’s mitigated somewhat because even the animals – aside from the flies – are hosts, so no horse is going to buck you to your death.

[Chicago Redshirt]

19 minutes ago, scrb said:

How does Ed Harris stay in the park so long if it's so expensive?

I don't buy that the park would remain popular for 30 years.  That's a long time if the main gimmicks are that you can kill and screw lifelike robots with impunity.

At some point, people are going to look at people who go to the park regularly as some kind of losers, the same kind of scorn heaped on guys who regularly frequent prostitutes or go to places like the Bunny Ranch repeatedly.

And where is the challenge if you can take down an army of robots singlehandedly because you can't be killed?  It's like using some cheat code in a game.   Maybe fun for some people but only for a short while.  (Though I get that at some point, the show is hinting this situation will change and the robots will get their revenge).

You would also expect some people to denounce how WW brings out the sadism and sociopathic traits in the guests when they think they're killing dozens of people.

Ed Harris could just be that rich. 

I'm pretty sure humans will take longer than 30 years to get tired of killing and screwing things. And as we've seen, they've been switching up storylines and doing other updates to the park over time. I would imagine that there will be interest maintained by the new twists and tech.

Social mores change rather quickly. I think that people are probably more accepting of high-priced call girls today than they were 50 years ago, and will be even more accepting 50 years from now. I would bet if there were robot prostitutes on the level of WW's today, people would not look down on people who do that. 

People play games with cheat modes all the time. In real life, the ultra rich do things like go on hunting safaris that have little risk to them. I would imagine acting out the storylines in WW would be just as attractive.

There very well might be protesters of WW. It's only 2 eps in.

[arc]

The animals all being robots brings up another issue: how is meat served to the guests? People had to slaughter cows pretty close to when they wanted to eat back then, what with no refrigeration. Do host chefs have a mental blind spot for delivery of meat cuts? Do robot cows have edible meat on them?

They can't just be hosts slaughtering and serving real cows because the pilot made such a big deal about hosts not harming any genuinely living thing.

(Which BTW seems silly; it breaks immersion like crazy that hosts don't even swat at flies...)

[Luckylyn]

I just had a crazy thought.  What if William is the inspiration for Teddy?  So Teddy is playing out a story that originally happened to William.

[scrb]

Do you guys think there would be Yelp or some other kinds of ratings on individual hosts?

Or different attractions within WW?

For sure, there would be complaints about the food and liquor quality.