S04.E05: Honeymoons, Part 2

[Neurochick]

I think the problem with Derek and Heather is that neither one of them knows what they want in a relationship.  If you ask either of them, "what do you want?" they'd come up with certain qualities, then you'd probably tell them, "well, your spouse has those qualities."   I think Derek wanted a younger woman and Heather wanted a more sophisticated man, but if they don't say that, if they don't know what they want, it will be a disaster.

Derek got upset with Heather when she held the hand of the surf instructor because he said something like, "I'm not allowed to touch you but he can?"  Does that mean he and Heather had a conversation where she told him he can't touch her?  

For me, being a grammar Nazi takes up too much time and effort, why should I get so worked up over how people, I don't even know, speak?

Edited August 25, 2016 by Neurochick

[Evil Queen]

2 hours ago, Passthepopcorn said:

No, I didn't mean it as a fashion contest. And it is not about who is on his side or her side. I saw it as body language, as a way of blocking him with everything she's got. Apart from the main thing which is her attitude.

Maybe I shouldn't have said baggy (baggy yes! lol). But I found it odd to go to the ocean wearing a big t shirt when she looks so good, or having breakfast wearing sunglasses, or sunglasses while they were "talking" on the couch... It's clear she doesn't want any contact with him, not visual, not physical. Crappy situation for both of them.

The sunglasses at breakfast though was on the patio so I can see why she would. I would too if it was to bright. Like I said on the couch it could have been for many reasons. The lighting alone from being filmed would kill my eyes. But she could have been upset and trying to hide it. Yet in those situations he had his baseball cap on backwards. Worse is just having it on when you are inside any place at all to me though. LOL Yet if he was smoking pot (still think it was), well I don't blame the attitude. He has looked like he has been since the beginning. It would be a big turn off to me matched with him. I don't find him good looking though or attractive in any way at all. His gets on my nerves (which heck maybe that is causing the attitude LOL), he has bad taste in tattoos and I have no issue with tattoos at all, comes off like an immature man child at times, and there is something else going on there but I can't put my finger on it just yet. So I can see why the attitude flipped on. I do think though there are things we we weren't shown that went on and could have caused it as well. Either way no matter what it seems we all think they should be done and move on. LOL 

1 hour ago, Jack Sampson said:

A. Correct.

B. Nothing wrong with it per se - but, if heather wants a man to stick around, she'll learn how to be.

All I can say is WOW....I will bit my tongue so I don't get in trouble here for being to aggressive. 

[ctbabe]

I noticed that there is an excuse for everything Heather does and everything she says is gospel truth.  But anything Derek says is false even though we can see he speaks the truth.

If they both cough, the assumption would be that Heather coughed because Derek was stressing her but Derek coughed because he is an asshole..

Sonia is allowed to be insecure because she is married to a robot that still holds hands and kisses her. Derek isn't allowed to be insecure because he has a penis and his RBF wife would rather help the surfing instructor bat off fly from his chest (don't know why she was looking at the chest in the first place) than talk to him or hold hands with him (I don't know when holding hands became sex). 

Regardless of how much we love our favorites, we should try to be fair.   #freakingdoublestandard

[princelina]

I finally finished watching the second half of the show, and got to see the drinking scene.  If that was Heather having fun then wow, what a dud.  The biggest turnoff for me WRT Derek as a husband would be his love of rap, followed by the ugly tattoos, but he does seem like an easygoing and pleasant personality, and she doesn't even seem like that when she's drunk!

 And I'll just add my two cents as a former smoker who now only does it on vacation- it's one in the morning and then a few over drinks in the evening.  

I'm hopeful for Nick and Sonia - I'm sure I would be more awkward than he is if cameras were watching for me to kiss a guy I barely knew and I was contractually bound to announce when we had "consummated"  :)

ETA:. Cigarettes!

Edited August 25, 2016 by princelina

[MsPH]

I don't know if this has been mentioned, but I actually believe Derek stopped smoking whatever he was smoking after last week's row, since he was acting like it. This whole episode I saw a man who's totally on edge, stressing and making mountains out of molehills because he hasn't had his fix. So I'm kind of on the fence about whether or not he's as childish and ridiculous all the time, and the pot/nicotine keeps him chill, or if he's just going through some kind of withdrawal symptoms. In any case, I thought he was being ridiculous about the surf instructor thing, and the comments about Heather's age were in very poor taste.

Heather is a strange one. She is such a drag when she's sober and barely shows any emotion other than annoyance. She seemed way more fun drunk, so maybe Derek should be happy that she likes to drink. Not that these two will ever work out.

Nick and Sonia are my favourites. I do think he likes her, he's just really awkward and cautious about it. The gift was so cute and made her so happy. She just seems like a sweetheart. I really hope they work out!

I don't think Lillian will be upset about the bus at all. In the preview they cut her off after the "OMG", which sounded more excited than shocked to me.

[Paddywagon]

56 minutes ago, ctbabe said:

I noticed that there is an excuse for everything Heather does and everything she says is gospel truth.  But anything Derek says is false even though we can see he speaks the truth.

 

Here's what my boss used to say:

If a man speaks in the woods and his wife isn't there to hear, is he still wrong?

[Passthepopcorn]

2 hours ago, Evil Queen said:

The sunglasses at breakfast though was on the patio so I can see why she would. I would too if it was to bright. Like I said on the couch it could have been for many reasons. The lighting alone from being filmed would kill my eyes. But she could have been upset and trying to hide it. Yet in those situations he had his baseball cap on backwards. Worse is just having it on when you are inside any place at all to me though. LOL Yet if he was smoking pot (still think it was), well I don't blame the attitude. He has looked like he has been since the beginning. It would be a big turn off to me matched with him. I don't find him good looking though or attractive in any way at all. His gets on my nerves (which heck maybe that is causing the attitude LOL), he has bad taste in tattoos and I have no issue with tattoos at all, comes off like an immature man child at times, and there is something else going on there but I can't put my finger on it just yet. So I can see why the attitude flipped on. I do think though there are things we we weren't shown that went on and could have caused it as well. Either way no matter what it seems we all think they should be done and move on. LOL 

I see her side too. You don't like the man, you don't find him attractive in any way, your whole system shuts down, you have no desire to be near him or do anything with him, there's nothing you can force to make it happen, it would be fake. There's chemistry or there's not. It must be horrible to be stuck with someone you don't like.

Personally, I think he looks ok. I don't care for his backward cap, I don't like his weird tattoos, and I couldn't take smoking, but he had a great attitude, I think he is someone you can work with, get to at least try, get to know him. He's been pretty open and optimistic about the whole thing. There are so many people who initially feel unimpressed or repelled by the person they later fall in love with. At least he tried, she didn't. And instead of talking to him, she acted pretty nasty and cold so he would take the hint. I'm sorry for both of them.

[Zuleikha]

B. Nothing wrong with it per se - but, if heather wants a man to stick around, she'll learn how to be.

That's bullsh--t. Plenty of men are mature enough to be fine with women who have the exact same personality traits that are celebrated in men. And there's no point in Heather trying to become "soft" to keep a boyfriend (which is usually code for "puts up with crap") because she'll be miserable. She's better off having her independence.

 Lashing out with petty and cruel comments isn't a good look on anyone, but while I think he's being small and childish, I also sympathize with his predicament.

I don't. As is so often said about the women, he knew what show he was on. No one's promised a spouse who's attracted to them.

IMHO, the problem this season is the same as the problem every season. The experts don't care about actually forming compatible matches. I don't blame Heather for not getting physical with someone she's not attracted to and probably doesn't like. It's not her fault she was matched poorly. Likely, I don't blame Derek for being frustrated, but I do blame him for being a sexist jerk in how he expressed it. But mostly I blame the show for lying to the contestants and pretending that they try to match up pairs who may actually be compatible and not giving couples an easy out when there's a situation like David/Ashley or Derek/Heather where one or both people in the couple know pretty much right away that there's no chance in hell the relationship will work.

[JennyMominFL]

4 hours ago, Koda1969 said:

Have to agree as well. My husband is former Navy. I'm not allowed to fold his t-shirts out of the laundry because "I don't do it right" (hey, I'm fine with him doing it, less for me to do!) My husband also has a very confident demeanor (he was military police to boot). But...I can tell you that my husband definitely lived up (and continues) to the old cliches about rowdy Navy men. My husband is very outgoing (nice way of putting it). To some, he may appear childish, but when you need him, he immediately turns into the responsible man I've grown to count on.

 

As a WM, woman Marine...I'm not that neat. I struggle with it.

 As for what is feminine. Again, I was a Marine, but otherwise, I am stereotypically feminine. I always wear makeup, nice clothes do my hair. That's me in the avatar. But I guess some might not see me as feminine. Whatever. I'm lucky enough to be married to someone who lets me be me and doesn't think I need to fit into a pretty little box. I would never change who I am to keep a man. Nor should any of these ladies have too.

[StayingAfterSunday]

5 hours ago, moonxyz said:

Heather is Ashley without the bullshit. She doesn't like Derek and is making it very clear. She was probably expecting a Mr Big from Sex and the City, but instead got a mellow pot head.

Derek is David without the bullshit. he knows that he wife is not felling him and confronts her directly about it. He's a bummy pot head but I can tell he has a god heart.

Lilly is actually quite mature for her age. I feel sorry that she got matched with Tom.  I get strong phony vibes from him.

Nick does nothing for me, his meek personality is annoying. I don't think he is pushing as much as he should. It's ok to go at one's pace but its kind of inconsiderate to be that slow in moving forward in the relationship. 

 With respect to Heather's dislike for Derek.  Yep, he is not what she had expected.  I believe that it was curtains for him immediately after he said, "I really liked it when they said, "Mr. and Mrs. Schwartz."  As much as I like Derek, I must admit that he falls a bit short on sex appeal.  And, as I've stated before, feeling a physical attraction to her match seems to have been a requirement for Heather.  I don't think she liked his candor (even when he was being sweet and nice), and I don't think she liked his voice, etc. etc.  The "It" factor just wasn't there, and it wasn't coming- ever.  Pardon the pun.

[Nowhere]

7 hours ago, Empress1 said:

They're on a beach vacation. Heather's had on a bathing suit under her clothes in a bunch of the scenes - I'm pretty sure she had one on under her blue halter dress (I thought the dress was cute) when she and Derek were Skyping with the pastor. Their hotel apparently has a pool and hot tub in addition to the beach. When I'm at the beach, I'm in a bathing suit most of the time because if there's water, I'm in it. My beach vacation attire is bathing suit under casual clothes or a coverup during the day (and very, very little makeup - either none at all or a swipe or two of waterproof mascara), and dresses (and makeup) at night. I wouldn't wear one to dinner or to do an activity where there is no water in sight, like riding ATVs (I'd need a real bra for that!), but it's not weird to me that he's in swim trunks at the beach.

I agree. And I hate to tell everybody who's commenting on Heather's appearance, I watched the show again for my bf and Heather is actually the only one of the three women to actually try to fix herself up. She's the only one who consistently tried to maintain her makeup. She had a full face on when skyping the doctor, so I don't know where the criticism for that came from. The other two women aren't dressing up during the day either and they are definitely NOT wearing makeup. Lily desperately needs makeup IMHO. She looks like shit. Funny how Heather is held to a higher standard just because she's not the favorite.

I can understand why Heather isn't well-liked because she does give off a snobby vibe and I hate that she keeps leaving Derek behind; however, I don't think she's so terrible. It's just that the "experts" wanted to fuck with some people for ratings so they put two very incompatible people together in hopes that one or both of them would want to kill themselves. I blame the "experts".

I'm also a little pissed about the criticism she's getting for drinking and finally having fun with Derek. Isn't that what everyone wanted? I thought she had a fun personality when she let loose a little. At which point, Derek suddenly tried to get all classy. What's the problem with her saying, "chug it"? She was trying to have fun with "this guy". If Sonia would have chanted "Chug it? Chug it? Chug it?" with her quirky girl upspeak, everyone would be discussing how fun and cute she is right now, but since it was Heather we're all clutching our pearls.

[Jack Sampson]

1 hour ago, Zuleikha said:

That's bullsh--t. Plenty of men are mature enough to be fine with women who have the exact same personality traits that are celebrated in men.

I've never met a man who prefers women who act manly.  He might end up with one, but it's never a first choice.

Maybe there's a niche market out there of dudes who are straight but prefer manly women - hell, even the Williams sisters have men in their lives.  But, if Heather wants to find a husband, she's better off playing the odds and acting in a way that attracts the vast majority of men.

1 hour ago, Zuleikha said:

She's better off having her independence.

I'm sure she and her cats will be happy together.

[Magoo]

4 hours ago, Evil Queen said:

6 hours ago, Jack Sampson said:

A. Correct.

B. Nothing wrong with it per se - but, if heather wants a man to stick around, she'll learn how to be.

All I can say is WOW....I will bit my tongue so I don't get in trouble here for being to aggressive. 

Agree to strongly disagree with the idea that Heather needs to learn anything about being feminine, whatever that might mean. She may not be some magazine ideal of soft and meek and pleasing to all men, but she doesn't have to be - she's her own person. She is who she is, and who she is doesn't make her inherently unattractive or unloveable. She seems to be smart and capable and successful. The editors and the overall show haven't shown me enough to say the same for him, but he's a catch for someone I'm sure. They clearly weren't the right match.  If either one were my friend I would tell them to cut bait and run, not try to stick it out for what possible purpose. These two are clearly incompatible for a variety of reasons. It doesn't mean one or the other is a lost cause - they are just totally wrong for each other. 

[Happyfatchick]

6 hours ago, Koda1969 said:

Have to agree as well. My husband is former Navy. I'm not allowed to fold his t-shirts out of the laundry because "I don't do it right" (hey, I'm fine with him doing it, less for me to do!) My husband also has a very confident demeanor (he was military police to boot). But...I can tell you that my husband definitely lived up (and continues) to the old cliches about rowdy Navy men. My husband is very outgoing (nice way of putting it). To some, he may appear childish, but when you need him, he immediately turns into the responsible man I've grown to count on.

Koda, thank you for that.  You described the average Marine far more succinctly than I did.  You're exactly right - they may have clothes strewn on the exercise bike for 6 months, and have amazing tolerance for video games - but if the "stuff" gets real that's the guy you want.  You just know that you know you can rely on them.  They stand up and go immediately into action and I love that about their training.  @JennyMominFL, thank you for your service.  NOBODY earns my respect faster than the girls who tough out basic at PI.  OOORAH!  

[nlkm9]

this episode changed my mind--I think Nick and Sonia are so cute!! she seems very sweet. Heather may be a bit of a sourpuss, but to me, Derek is pissed theyre not having sex. he is obnoxious and confrontational and sadly, he reminds me of a relative of mine who was an alcoholic and he was crabby and stressed when he was placed in a situation where he had no access to beer. Derek is completely stressed and unpleasant because he is not smoking for this one day. She is not exactly warm, but seriously I think Derek is a jerk and has 2 thngs on his mind--sex and pot. he is a petulant child when not getting his way. Heather should not have signed up for this show and she does remind me a little of Ashley from last season.....

Tom and Lillian zzzzz.

[jamblastx]

11 hours ago, Neurochick said:

I think the problem with Derek and Heather is that neither one of them knows what they want in a relationship.  If you ask either of them, "what do you want?" they'd come up with certain qualities, then you'd probably tell them, "well, your spouse has those qualities."   I think Derek wanted a younger woman and Heather wanted a more sophisticated man, but if they don't say that, if they don't know what they want, it will be a disaster.

 

Agreed...plus the fact that it is a television show does none of these people any justice.  If the applicants for the show went to a matchmaking service, then they all would have been matched up with someone so they can be more open and honest in what they want in another person.  Because this is a show first and foremost, the only way they get matched up is if they get cast on the show.  Hence this may be the reason why we have people who may have said one thing on their questionnaire that isn't exactly true or downplayed their dealbreakers

[Vinyasa]

Quote

There are now five women -- I include Heather -- who were Repulsed At First Sight.

I don't think Heather was repulsed at first sight. She seemed ok at the wedding/reception and the brunch after the wedding. She was repulsed by Day 1 of the honeymoon.

[Neurochick]

11 hours ago, Evil Queen said:

I do think though there are things we we weren't shown that went on and could have caused it as well.

I agree with this.  I think something happened that we didn't see.  Derek said to Heather, "you don't want me to touch you," when he was speaking about her holding the surf instructor's hand; yet we never saw Heather tell Derek he couldn't touch her.   Something happened.  Maybe Derek made a move and Heather said, "don't touch me," and he took it as she didn't want him to touch her at all. 

The problem I see with Derek and Heather, (Dether) is that neither of them explained in detail what they wanted in a mate.  It's like if someone asked me, "what would you like in a partner" and I said, "I'd like someone funny, kind, intelligent," and they match me up with someone I'm not physically attracted to, but has those qualities I asked for.  I never specified physical type.  Did Derek or Heather specify physical type?  If not then it's on them, not the experts.

Quote

Agreed...plus the fact that it is a television show does none of these people any justice.  If the applicants for the show went to a matchmaking service, then they all would have been matched up with someone so they can be more open and honest in what they want in another person.  Because this is a show first and foremost, the only way they get matched up is if they get cast on the show.  Hence this may be the reason why we have people who may have said one thing on their questionnaire that isn't exactly true or downplayed their dealbreakers

True, but as I said above, even if you go to a  matchmaker, you have to be specific as to what you are looking for and you have to know yourself enough to know what you are looking for.

Edited August 25, 2016 by Neurochick

[ctbabe]

7 minutes ago, Vinyasa said:

I don't think Heather was repulsed at first sight. She seemed ok at the wedding/reception and the brunch after the wedding. She was repulsed by Day 1 of the honeymoon.

I think she was replused earlier than that. She was replused on the plane to PR.

[ctbabe]

5 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

 

The problem I see with Derek and Heather, (Dether) is that neither of them explained in detail what they wanted in a mate.  It's like if someone asked me, "what would you like in a partner" and I said, "I'd like someone funny, kind, intelligent," and they match me up with someone I'm not physically attracted to, but has those qualities I asked for.  I never specified physical type.  Did Derek or Heather specify physical type?  If not then it's on them, not the experts.

True, but as I said above, even if you go to a  matchmaker, you have to be specific as to what you are looking for and you have to know yourself enough to know what you are looking for.

I think Derek found Heather attractive at the wedding but her attitude made her turn ugly to him. Didn't Derek's friend in unfiltered say character was most important to Derek not physical apperance?

[HZAnita]

I think Heather is very pretty.  Her face does seem a bit "hard," but I don't know if that is just reflective of the current circumstances.  She may be completely different off-camera and with people with whom she's comfortable.  And she has a fantastic body.  I was completely jealous of her in that bikini!  

However, I'm going to agree that she brought us all along when she jumped on the NeverAttractedToHim train, with stops at the popular scenic village of DisapprovesOfFrequent(Pot)Smoking and the land of UnattractiveTattoos.  The train has derailed at the twin cities of Don'tReallyLikeHimSoNoPatience and IncompatibleCommunicationStyles. Sadly, we have all been witnesses to this horrific train wreck.  Hopefully, emergency services will arrive soon to rescue us.

[ComeSitByMe]

On August 24, 2016 at 0:04 AM, Snarklepuss said:

If Derek were half the man he wishes he was his ego would never have been so bruised that he would ever make a comment like that.  Being rejected doesn't give him license to insult all women and if he had any sense at all he would never utter crap like that on camera. 

Contrast him with Neil from last season -  Despite all the ridiculous crap Neil took from Sam, never ONCE did he lower himself to make such a classless comment about women in general or I'm sure it would have ended up on TV.  And I don't even put Heather in the same category with Sam by a long shot. 

I'm beginning to see what Heather saw about Derek from the start that she revealed in her argument with him about what he does being "low class".  He just IS low class and she had his number from day one.  Her comment about being mentally and physically exhausted said it all. She risked a LOT to find love and THIS is what they thought she should be matched with?  I'd be insulted if I were her.  And Pastor Calvin seems to be putting it all on her.  What a cop out - once again the "experts" don't want to take responsibility for having made bad matches and instead blame the participants.

EVERYTHING you said down to the word. Initially I thought Heather was being a little standoffish and now I understand why. His immaturity and constant "smoking" -- let's just call it drug use -- were huge red flags. I doubt it's legal where they are anyway. It is pretty common to drink every day on an island vacation, not as much with the MJ. Lest you think I'm a prude, I live in a 420 state and voted for its legalization. 

Secondly, when she "abandoned" him in the cave...Good Lord! How much longer did he want to stay in there? They had their fun and to wrap it up they had a talking head and of course Heather assumed they were finished there and so headed out so the next group could go in. Derek acts as if since it is HIS honeymoon, no one else exists. His pouty neediness reeked to high heaven! Yuck. What a turn off. 

His comments on age are laughable. I'm in my 50's and have been single half of my adult life, albeit in long term relationships when I wasn't married. I have NEVER had a problem attracting men of high caliber in terms of education, class/culture and income. And I'm not stick thin, either. He is delusional if he thinks someone like Heather can't find a man. She could EASILY find someone who would blow a petulant, childish Mama's boy like Derek out of the water. I think she just needs a dating coach. She reminds me of someone who has been involved with an unavailable man for too long and It has made her wary. Pastor Calvin was completely inept in his counseling, shaming Heather for her feelings and completely reinforcing The Needy One's BS. He was really worthless. I was so disappointed.

I think Lilly and Tom are cute for now but they don't have what it takes to last. Tom appears to want a non-conventional lifestyle in which he can surf every day and live 5 minutes from the water. His income precludes beachfront property, so he has chosen to live in a trailer and label it a "luxury bus." That's okay. However, he shouldn't refer to those who want tangible elements of stability -- such as a house --"materialistic." They just ultimately want different things, and unless he can see that he can still surf frequently and be a homeowner, they're doomed.

Don't throw tomatoes at me, but If you're still reading, I think Nick is gay. Not a thing wrong with it, but this is the wrong show for him. Maybe he can't admit it to himself. I think Sonia has convinced herself that she is into him, but I don't really think she is. She wants to be married so she's convinced herself there is something more there for her. Is anyone else amazed with how great she looks without makeup? I'm really jealous!

Edited August 25, 2016 by ComeSitByMe

[KateHearts]

18 hours ago, Enero said:

But it's just kind of strange now. Even when they "woke up" at the start of last night's episode Sonia's body language was leaning away from him and of course throughout the episode he was just awkward.

waking up next to someone you don't know would make you keep your distance. I know that I wouldn't want to breathe on someone (including my husband) when I haven't brushed my teeth.

[SillyOldClothCat]

13 hours ago, Koda1969 said:

Have to agree as well. My husband is former Navy. I'm not allowed to fold his t-shirts out of the laundry because "I don't do it right" (hey, I'm fine with him doing it, less for me to do!) My husband also has a very confident demeanor (he was military police to boot). But...I can tell you that my husband definitely lived up (and continues) to the old cliches about rowdy Navy men. My husband is very outgoing (nice way of putting it). To some, he may appear childish, but when you need him, he immediately turns into the responsible man I've grown to count on.

LOL @ your husband folding his own t-shirts because you don't "do it right".   The "right way" is always how the military taught, regardless of how well your alternate way works.  But, when my husband tried to tell me the "right way" to fold his underwear, I drew the line.  

[cardigirl]

I thought Derek looked nice at dinner.  I like those types of shirts on men.  His tattoos don't bother me a bit, and he seems pretty fit.  I think Heather is plenty pretty also.  I'm really sad that they don't seem to be able to connect. 

[henrysmom]

Quote

I see her side too. You don't like the man, you don't find him attractive in any way, your whole system shuts down, you have no desire to be near him or do anything with him, there's nothing you can force to make it happen, it would be fake. There's chemistry or there's not. It must be horrible to be stuck with someone you don't like.

This is what I see in Heather.  I know I've commented on her appearance but I never met to imply that women owe it to men to dress up/wear makeup, whatever.  I'm old, but I'm not that old. :)

What I see in Heather is somebody who just doesn't like this guy.  There is nothing in him she finds appealing.  So she does what most people (men and women alike) would do in that situation.  She pulls back.  She doesn't bother about looking nice because she doesn't GAD about what he thinks.  She walks away from him because she doesn't want to be near him.  She's just saying (through her actions, and whether she knows it consciously or not) that she and Derek are not going to happen.  Yeah, she could just come right out and tell him that, but most people aren't willing or able to do that. 

What I found really interesting was that even after the Pastor Skyped with them and told her she needs to break down walls if she wants this marriage to work, she just kept carefully building up more walls.  Being able to see somebody's eyes is pretty vital to communication--so she wears sunglasses on the balcony, inside on the couch, out near the hot tub.  And when Derek is in the hot tub she gets up and walks away, which he's said is something that annoys him.  And then they go to dinner and she proceeds to, if not get drunk, certainly get buzzed and act kind of stupid--and he's already called her out on her drinking.

I'm not saying she is unfeminine or that she won't be able to get a man or anything similar because she's done these things.  She's just making it very clear that she is not interested in this guy and no matter what Pastor Calvin or anybody else says or does, this marriage is over.

[BunnySlippers]

9 hours ago, Nowhere said:

If Sonia would have chanted "Chug it? Chug it? Chug it?" with her quirky girl upspeak, everyone would be discussing how fun and cute she is right now, but since it was Heather we're all clutching our pearls.

That's a good point. You're also right about the makeup. Heather does make up her face, while the other two usually don't.

2 hours ago, Neurochick said:

I agree with this.  I think something happened that we didn't see.  Derek said to Heather, "you don't want me to touch you," when he was speaking about her holding the surf instructor's hand; yet we never saw Heather tell Derek he couldn't touch her.   Something happened.  Maybe Derek made a move and Heather said, "don't touch me," and he took it as she didn't want him to touch her at all. 

The problem I see with Derek and Heather, (Dether) is that neither of them explained in detail what they wanted in a mate.  It's like if someone asked me, "what would you like in a partner" and I said, "I'd like someone funny, kind, intelligent," and they match me up with someone I'm not physically attracted to, but has those qualities I asked for.  I never specified physical type.  Did Derek or Heather specify physical type?  If not then it's on them, not the experts.

True, but as I said above, even if you go to a  matchmaker, you have to be specific as to what you are looking for and you have to know yourself enough to know what you are looking for.

 

I noticed, too, that we never got to see that event when Heather had told Derek not to touch her. It could have been something innocent, or it could have been Derek trying to come on to her and she told him she wasn't ready.

I really don't know if it's that these people don't explain to the "experts" what they want in a mate. There's a long list of questions they have to answer and, as I remember from previous seasons, they do talk about what physical type they like. I have this memory of them looking at pictures and choosing which ones they were attracted to. Also, in previous seasons, they talked about the type they liked (tall, dark, etc. - I think that was Ashley). But it seems that that doesn't really matter to the experts. They choose whoever they want, and, since the participants only get to see their pair at the wedding, they have absolutely no say in who they get. With Ashley, too, her type was dark-haired men, and they paired her with David.

 

1 hour ago, ComeSitByMe said:

I think Sonia has convinced herself that she is into him, but I don't think she is. Is anyone else amazed with how great she looks without makeup? I'm really jealous!

Yes, I noticed, too, that she actually looks much better without makeup.

Edited August 25, 2016 by BunnySlippers
grammar

[BunnySlippers]

1 minute ago, ctbabe said:

I don't think this is true. I heard that the experts asked the participants to bring pictures of their exs which helped in the attraction dept. 

Why is it not true? That's exactly what I was saying about Ashley and David: they knew she liked dark-haired men, and they paired him with ginger-haired David. How was that supposed to help with the attraction?

[Koda1969]

8 hours ago, Happyfatchick said:

Koda, thank you for that.  You described the average Marine far more succinctly than I did.  You're exactly right - they may have clothes strewn on the exercise bike for 6 months, and have amazing tolerance for video games - but if the "stuff" gets real that's the guy you want.  You just know that you know you can rely on them.  They stand up and go immediately into action and I love that about their training.  @JennyMominFL, thank you for your service.  NOBODY earns my respect faster than the girls who tough out basic at PI.  OOORAH!  

Well, I will confess that being married to a military man was a learning curve for me, but the one nice thing, is once I figured him out, I didn't really have to overthink much of anything.

For some reason, it just made me think of something that Nick said. I can't remember exactly, but didn't he say something to the effect that if he's not saying it, he's not thinking it?

Reason I thought of that, is that is one of the biggest things I learned with my husband. I tease him often that he doesn't "emote". He's not the type to overthink anything or over discuss anything. At first, that threw me off, because I constantly worried that because he wasn't talking to me about something, that maybe he was upset or bothered. But turns out no...he just doesn't want or need to over analyze. I can tell you that once I got used to that, it was the greatest thing on earth. Knowing where I (or we or whatever) stand takes a huge emotional burden off of me.

Granted, I'll also confess that this won't earn me any points...he is a misogynist. Or at least, a playful one if that makes sense. He often jokes that the Navy taught him how to drink and womanize and he is often playful about our roles (he'll sometimes say "woman, go make me a sammich!") But...I should stress, it's always in fun, because he knows that even though I'm only 5' tall, I'll knock him on his ass so fast he won't know what hit him. So, while he tries to joke and act like a pig, in the end, he'll give me whatever I want, is faithful to a fault and is truly my best friend.

[Jellybeans]

9 hours ago, Nowhere said:

 

I'm also a little pissed about the criticism she's getting for drinking and finally having fun with Derek. Isn't that what everyone wanted? I thought she had a fun personality when she let loose a little. At which point, Derek suddenly tried to get all classy. What's the problem with her saying, "chug it"? She was trying to have fun with "this guy". If Sonia would have chanted "Chug it? Chug it? Chug it?" with her quirky girl upspeak, everyone would be discussing how fun and cute she is right now, but since it was Heather we're all clutching our pearls.

Well, if any of the men or women were doing this I would think they were not classy.  Remember she asked Derick if he ever did beer bongs and he said no?  

Chugging it is never classy whether you are male or female.  

People who can only "let loose" when they have had a few are not ready for relationships IMO. 

[crazychicken]

20 minutes ago, BunnySlippers said:

Why is it not true? That's exactly what I was saying about Ashley and David: they knew she liked dark-haired men, and they paired him with ginger-haired David. How was that supposed to help with the attraction?

The exes pictures is new this season, I remember reading it in the media when production talked about the changes made this time around like talking to family & friends about participants past relationships, more contact by the experts early on, the experts stepping in when conflict started rather than letting it play out, more marriage counseling like exercises. Overall production was heading for more support towards building a relationship rather than just throwing the participants together and leaving them to figure it out on their own which is what most of us on these forums suggested right from the start.

[Stinamaia]

As I see it, Heather and Derek share some of the same weaknesses.  They both tend to place blame on each other rather than thinking about how their own behavior contributes to the problem.   The both become aggressive and confrontational when talking about issues between them.  Both take positions rather than looking how to solve problems.  Both hang on to their grievances.  Both become unlikeable in conflict.   

[Koda1969]

10 hours ago, JennyMominFL said:

As a WM, woman Marine...I'm not that neat. I struggle with it.

 As for what is feminine. Again, I was a Marine, but otherwise, I am stereotypically feminine. I always wear makeup, nice clothes do my hair. That's me in the avatar. But I guess some might not see me as feminine. Whatever. I'm lucky enough to be married to someone who lets me be me and doesn't think I need to fit into a pretty little box. I would never change who I am to keep a man. Nor should any of these ladies have too.

First off, thank you for your service!

I think in the long run to say what we (women, men, whatever) should be is just not a feasible concept. We have the right to be what we want, like what we want, etc. The key, and in my estimation, why we are all discussing it here, is because we're trying to figure out why some of these individuals aren't finding happiness and love...either through the show or outside of it. You make a good point about being married to someone who lets you be you, and I think THAT is the main thing. When two people are comfortable, they don't need to force the other to conform to some ideal. My husband and I were 43 when we met and married and right off the bat we both said we did not want to change ourselves or each other. My husband likes Batman, I let him have a whole display wall for his collectibles. He's not into decorating, so I get to do what I want to the house.

In the case of Heather, if I can play devil's advocate..no, she shouldn't have to change. But then again, neither should Derek. I think that's the delicate balance with people when they come together. Some can get over things and move on, some can't and check out. In Heather's case, the only thing I fault her on honestly, is two things. One, lack of communication. Rather than just say outright something like "look, this whole thing makes me scared and nervous, and so I don't mean to seem cold..just work with me a little"..she instead folds her arms, seems to scowl, and in essence shuts down. Two, when she does finally say something that is bugging her, she's not wording it like a discussion (in my opinion). It's more like "I don't like this"...period..end of story. From the smoking to the gambling, she seems to make statements that are admonishments. I know that personally, I would be very defensive just based on her statements and body language.

If I can offer an example. I have epilepsy, and due to the high cost of my meds, I stopped taking my medication a few weeks ago. I plan to eventually get to the doctor and start a new medication, but truth is, I wanted a break. The meds make my skin crawl, make me very irritable, I hate them. That said, last week my husband called on the way home from work and one thing led to another and I lit into him. I wasn't nice at all, in fact I really did just come across very mean and very petty. He didn't say anything, but when he came home, I could tell I'd upset him (which trust me, is very rare). I sat him down and said "look, I'm so sorry that I said what I did and the way I said it. I wasn't trying to blame you for the situation. I didn't communicate right. I love you, and I don't want us to fight. But, please understand that right now, I don't feel 100%. That's not an excuse, I just want you to know that how and what I said, what not what I was intending to convey." He gave me a hug and a kiss, said he understood, and we were eventually able to talk about the problem that caused the fight and find a solution.

Heck, maybe if Heather had just sat Derek down and said "you know, I'm going to confess that this whole thing scares the crap out of me, and I'm having a hard time getting comfortable" maybe she'd garner more empathy?

[izabella]

2 hours ago, ComeSitByMe said:

I think Lilly and Tom are cute for now but they don't have what it takes to last. Tom appears to want a non-conventional lifestyle in which he can surf every day and live 5 minutes from the water. His income precludes beachfront property, so he has chosen to live in a trailer and label it a "luxury bus." That's okay. However, he shouldn't refer to those who want tangible elements of stability -- such as a house --"materialistic." They just ultimately want different things, and unless he can see that he can still surf frequently and be a homeowner, they're doomed.

I swear, every time they show the bus, it is parked in a parking lot surrounded by cars.  I wouldn't want to live in a bus in a parking lot either.

[Koda1969]

1 hour ago, SillyOldClothCat said:

LOL @ your husband folding his own t-shirts because you don't "do it right".   The "right way" is always how the military taught, regardless of how well your alternate way works.  But, when my husband tried to tell me the "right way" to fold his underwear, I drew the line.  

haha so true! Well, I didn't argue with him. Now, when I do laundry on the weekends, I leave the clean clothes in the basket. I hang up his work uniforms, and let him fold the rest. So, in a way, kinda worked in my favor!!

[Koda1969]

18 minutes ago, Jellybeans said:

Well, if any of the men or women were doing this I would think they were not classy.  Remember she asked Derick if he ever did beer bongs and he said no?  

Chugging it is never classy whether you are male or female.  

People who can only "let loose" when they have had a few are not ready for relationships IMO. 

My opinion about the drinking is that she keeps saying he is a child or acting childish, yet then comments about the beer bong and encouraging him to chug. I guess my feeling is that you can't have it all ways. Do you want a frat boy type? Do you want a daily-suit-wearing type? A mixture of the two? Being that she nitpicked about the smoking and gambling, I think her encouraging him to chug, and asking about the beer bong were confusing to me. Here she was nitpicking at his vices, then on the other side egging him on.

[Snarklepuss]

23 hours ago, cardigirl said:

Correct use of they're, their, and there, does not make one morally superior.  

No, but it can correlate with level of education and/or social class.  This is not an opinion, it's based on many studies that have shown such a correlation.

[BunnySlippers]

25 minutes ago, crazychicken said:

The exes pictures is new this season, I remember reading it in the media when production talked about the changes made this time around like talking to family & friends about participants past relationships, more contact by the experts early on, the experts stepping in when conflict started rather than letting it play out, more marriage counseling like exercises. Overall production was heading for more support towards building a relationship rather than just throwing the participants together and leaving them to figure it out on their own which is what most of us on these forums suggested right from the start.

Oh, okay. I don't think I read that (or if I did, I forgot, which is not impossible, lol). So they make more of an effort this season to find a better match. I wonder how close Derek is to Heather's type, though. Of course, even if he was her type (and he might be, since she did find him handsome at the wedding), things can still go south if their personalities just don't match.

[cardigirl]

7 minutes ago, Snarklepuss said:

No, but it can correlate with level of education and/or social class.  This is not an opinion, it's based on many studies that have shown such a correlation.

Neither of which indicate whether someone is a good person or not. 

[Snarklepuss]

22 hours ago, Neurochick said:

Thank you.  I mean just because a man doesn't want to fuck you at first sight, doesn't mean he's gay or not into you.  Maybe he's waiting to make sure you're not a crazy stalker type.  

I attribute Nick's demeanor, especially when dancing, to nerves.  The guy probably can't dance and doesn't want to look like an uncoordinated white boy on camera, and I thought it was embarrassing when the dance instructors put Nick's hands on Sonia's body; not cool IMO.  Just because a man is uncomfortable on camera doesn't make him gay.  I don't know when it happened that people have become put into tiny boxes, today it seems like.  "If a man is ____ then they're abusive," even though you've only known someone for five minutes, or "If a man doesn't want to fuck you on sight, he's gay," even if you just met,  WTF?  You know, that used to be what a lot of men used to say about women who didn't want to sleep with them when they wanted sex.  "You must be a lesbian if you don't want me."  Huh?   I think Nick is VERY conscious of the cameras, to the point it seems, to me like he's scared of them. 

People can get angry without being abusive, people can not want to touch at first sight without being gay. 
 

ITA.  I'm reading it that Nick is just shy about wearing his heart on his sleeve so he is acting a little awkward, especially because he's on camera so much.  What he really is feeling I don't think we can tell at this point.  I just don't think he's ready to share it yet.  Maybe he has to be more sure, or whatever.  They did just meet each other.  I don't necessarily think he's hiding something bad, just that he's not comfortable putting it out there for the entire world to see just yet.  Even though I've gotten mild gaydar about him that doesn't mean he's gay, he could just be that "metro" as Sonia said.   I think part of his "taking things at a comfortable pace" has to do with how soon and how publicly he broadcasts his feelings.  Sonia is very sensitive and I'm sure she's getting positive vibes from him or she wouldn't be so happy with him thus far, but I'm sure even she is a little bit confused and hoping that in time he can get over whatever it is and be more forthcoming with his feelings and demonstrations of affection.

Edited August 25, 2016 by Snarklepuss
Didn't want my posts "merged".

[Snarklepuss]

8 minutes ago, cardigirl said:

Neither of which indicate whether someone is a good person or not. 

Of course, I never said that it did......

[Koda1969]

39 minutes ago, Stinamaia said:

As I see it, Heather and Derek share some of the same weaknesses.  They both tend to place blame on each other rather than thinking about how their own behavior contributes to the problem.   The both become aggressive and confrontational when talking about issues between them.  Both take positions rather than looking how to solve problems.  Both hang on to their grievances.  Both become unlikeable in conflict.   

you summed up my thoughts exactly and far more succinctly and eloquently than me!

[JapMo]

"She's better off having her independence."

I'm sure she and her cats will be happy together."

LOL, oh Jack, it's nice to have a male viewpoint around here.  I can remember many times in my married life that I wanted my husband to just get the hell out of my sight, but as a widow of 12 years, it's hard being alone.  Yeah, I like independence, but I want someone to go to the movies with and cook for them.  Can't help it if that doesn't fit in the modern women way of thinking.

[Empress1]

1 hour ago, BunnySlippers said:

Yes, I noticed, too, that [Sonia] actually looks much better without makeup.

Sonia has great skin. I think she's the prettiest, then Heather, then Lily. I don't find Lily to be particularly attractive, although I think reverting to her natural hair color would look better. If you factor in personality, I'd switch Lily and Heather. Lily has a warmer personality than Heather. While I think Heather is probably nicer when she's in situations with people she actually likes, when I think back to the casting show, she didn't strike me as particularly warm or caring then either.

2 hours ago, henrysmom said:

This is what I see in Heather.  I know I've commented on her appearance but I never met to imply that women owe it to men to dress up/wear makeup, whatever.  I'm old, but I'm not that old. :)

What I see in Heather is somebody who just doesn't like this guy.  There is nothing in him she finds appealing.  So she does what most people (men and women alike) would do in that situation.  She pulls back.  She doesn't bother about looking nice because she doesn't GAD about what he thinks.  She walks away from him because she doesn't want to be near him.  She's just saying (through her actions, and whether she knows it consciously or not) that she and Derek are not going to happen.  Yeah, she could just come right out and tell him that, but most people aren't willing or able to do that. 

What I found really interesting was that even after the Pastor Skyped with them and told her she needs to break down walls if she wants this marriage to work, she just kept carefully building up more walls.  Being able to see somebody's eyes is pretty vital to communication--so she wears sunglasses on the balcony, inside on the couch, out near the hot tub.  And when Derek is in the hot tub she gets up and walks away, which he's said is something that annoys him.  And then they go to dinner and she proceeds to, if not get drunk, certainly get buzzed and act kind of stupid--and he's already called her out on her drinking.

I'm not saying she is unfeminine or that she won't be able to get a man or anything similar because she's done these things.  She's just making it very clear that she is not interested in this guy and no matter what Pastor Calvin or anybody else says or does, this marriage is over.

Yep. I think it's just that simple. I think she realizes she's made a HUGE mistake. This is the world's worst, longest blind date for her, she can't wait for it to be over, and she doesn't want to send any signal that he's got a shot so she's shut down. This is what he's in for if she sticks it out for the six weeks (which she really shouldn't, it's a waste of everyone's time. If she DOES hang in there, I bet she only stays in whatever shared living space they have when the experts are due for a visit).

[jamblastx]

3 hours ago, Neurochick said:

True, but as I said above, even if you go to a  matchmaker, you have to be specific as to what you are looking for and you have to know yourself enough to know what you are looking for.

Oh I agree with that wholeheartedly that Derek and Heather may not be really true to themselves of what they really want in a mate, let alone a marriage but that the nature of the show and the added hurdle of just being cast, doesn't help any of these people if they are not being completely honest. 

I actually went to a matchmaker some ten years ago when I was still relatively newly divorced and they grilled me in what I truly wanted.  At first my answers were a little guarded and I also did not want to sound too shallow for certain things but they kept hammering me stating that it doesn't do them any good and I will not be happy if I am not completely honest and I realized that they were right.  That said, the experience was an expensive disaster with one date worse than the next (but it did leave me with some great stories).  

So I can somewhat empathize a little with Ashley and Heather by being disappointed almost right away (holy shit, I cannot believe I am saying anything positive about Ashley) because just like MAFS, all the dates were sight unseen dates AND without contact prior to the date (the matchmaking service picked out local restaurants in between our respective locations and we met there).  But I am a very easy going guy and will always try to keep an open mind and at the very least try to have fun but at the end of the night, I was not married to any of these women.  And with a lot of these dates I really did not understand how this extensive questionnaire applied to my responses and I am sure in some cases they thought the same of me. 

[Snarklepuss]

3 hours ago, henrysmom said:

What I see in Heather is somebody who just doesn't like this guy.  There is nothing in him she finds appealing.  So she does what most people (men and women alike) would do in that situation.  She pulls back.  She doesn't bother about looking nice because she doesn't GAD about what he thinks.  She walks away from him because she doesn't want to be near him.  She's just saying (through her actions, and whether she knows it consciously or not) that she and Derek are not going to happen.  Yeah, she could just come right out and tell him that, but most people aren't willing or able to do that.

ITA.  I don't really find fault with Heather for that, even though I did with Ashley last season, though.  I've been trying to figure out why.  Perhaps it's just because putting myself in her place I wouldn't blame her given that I don't really find Derek to be a guy I'd want to get involved with either.  I don't find him attractive plus other intangible personality things, not to mention the smoking.  She seems to have a pretty strong revulsion to him.  I don't necessarily blame Heather for him having been chosen for her because I don't blame either her or Derek for putting misleading stuff on the questionnaires.  I am more likely to question the accuracy and the relevance of the questionnaires and the people administering them.  The questionnaires are supposed to be designed to factor out misrepresentation and to get at the real root of what people want.  It's obvious that they are not up to the task.  They are only supposed to be a tool, not the ONLY method for choosing a mate.  I wouldn't want something as important as a husband left up to a questionnaire to choose for me.  This is just the so-called "experts" way of absolving themselves of what should be THEIR responsibility by putting it on the candidates.  Ridiculous and completely unfair if you ask me.

Edited August 25, 2016 by Snarklepuss

[JapMo]

I think the experts get blamed a lot, but this year I see a marked improvement.  This season is closer to the first season in that everyone seems to really want to be married and the experts are in contact with the newlyweds a lot sooner than they were in Seasons 2-3.  As far as choosing the individuals, on paper I think Derek & Heather and Nick & Sonia fit.  I wouldn't have chosen Tom as a mate for someone because his choice of lifestyles, to me, would be difficult to match up.  But lo and behold, so far, who seems to have hit it off first?  Tom and Sonia.  What I'm saying is that no matter what people say are qualities they like and find attractive in a mate, when it comes down to it there's no way to gauge how important or how much of something a person likes/hates.  For example, maybe they say they like someone with a great sense of humor but in reality hate practical jokes and bathroom humor.  Or they like cleanly people when in reality they mean you better be able to do open heart surgery on your kitchen floor.  They prefer an extrovert but hate people who have to be the center of attention.  That magical combination that makes people attracted to each other is really something that can't be dissected and calculated, even though it can help a great deal in weeding out the misfits.  Nick & Sonia are quiet people who seem to be willing to get to know each other and are interested in finding out how each other tick before they come to conclusions.  Derek & Heather seem more prone to go with their gut.  

The show is fascinating for most people because we would never take a chance like this...but it was common less than a hundred years ago.  My grandparents were arranged.  People had less expectations then.  Probably if you surveyed people back then, they would have very little expectations...maybe "has to be a good provider" or "has to be a good cook".  They didn't have big dreams and high hopes.  You got married and that was it.  But in present day, people are more sophisticated, more educated, more complicated.  To even have one success out of this would be amazing, and they've had 2.  And I got a feeling there's going to be a successful couple this season too.  

[Vinyasa]

I think it is mostly about appearance with Heather.  If Derek looked like George Clooney/Brad Pitt, I wonder if she would be complaining about smoking. She would probably handle that much differently! 

I'll bet money she wouldn't have left him a cave.

[Kareem]

1 hour ago, Koda1969 said:

My opinion about the drinking is that she keeps saying he is a child or acting childish, yet then comments about the beer bong and encouraging him to chug. I guess my feeling is that you can't have it all ways. Do you want a frat boy type? Do you want a daily-suit-wearing type? A mixture of the two? Being that she nitpicked about the smoking and gambling, I think her encouraging him to chug, and asking about the beer bong were confusing to me. Here she was nitpicking at his vices, then on the other side egging him on.

Drinking is not a vice because it's HER vice.

[Evil Queen]

6 minutes ago, Vinyasa said:

I think it is mostly about appearance with Heather.  If Derek looked like George Clooney/Brad Pitt, I wonder if she would be complaining about smoking. She would probably handle that much differently! 

I'll bet money she wouldn't have left him a cave.

I'm just curious why people assume that? Why those 2 guys? Heck I must be a rare person because I find both unattractive and wouldn't want my man to look like either of those 2. So IMO its a stretch to assume it has to do with looks. More so when she said during the wedding day that she thought he was good looking. Its more to do with other things from what I am seeing and not his looks....even though I don't see Derek as good looking at all myself. Heck none of the guys are though IMO. Yet with Derek I think it comes down to more of his more than likely smoking pot and how his personality is coming off at times. Which it just feels like this show has edited out a lot of things on this couple so we are not seeing the big picture for their issues at all.