S04.E05: Honeymoons, Part 2

[red.]

44 minutes ago, henrysmom said:

Weren't Sam and Neal added at the last minute when another couple dropped out? 

That's what I remember hearing. I guess both parties just bailed last minute? Jaclyn from S2 had another match that fell through so they put RyR in, and then apparently the same happened with Heather for S4. 

[okerry]

On 8/24/2016 at 4:23 PM, kat12379 said:

I didnt mean that she needs to dress nicer or wear makeup. I meant that in general, the way she carries herself and behaves is not "soft and feminine". There is more to feminity than  wearing makeup. A lot of men would prefer a woman who carries herself like.... a woman

Yes. Patti Stanger of *The Millionaire Matchmaker* can be a screeching harpy at times, but she is spot on IMHO when she starts talking about "masculine energy" and "feminine energy."

Individuals can be as masculine or as feminine as they want in regular life - some women are very driven and masculine, and some men tend to be passive and feminine, and that's fine.  (And this has nothing whatsoever to do with sexual orientation.)

But when it comes to finding a romantic partner, men need to bring out the masculine and women need to bring out the feminine. Being feminine, in this case, means being a little softer and more yielding and accepting, and this is NOT the same as being "weak." Being masculine means being a little stronger and more take-charge and protective, and this is NOT the same as being "controlling."

These things go back to the cave-man days and are in our DNA. Unfortunately, they're no longer politically correct, so we end up with millions of people who end up in one failed relationship after another until finally they wake up one day and they're on MAFS - and still failing.

[okerry]

On 8/25/2016 at 0:31 AM, Jack Sampson said:

I've never met a man who prefers women who act manly.  He might end up with one, but it's never a first choice.

Maybe there's a niche market out there of dudes who are straight but prefer manly women - hell, even the Williams sisters have men in their lives.  But, if Heather wants to find a husband, she's better off playing the odds and acting in a way that attracts the vast majority of men.

I'm sure she and her cats will be happy together.

You might think that a masculine-energy woman would want a very strong man, but the truth is, all they do is fight and clash over everything and it really does not work.

Very aggressive, alpha-type, masculine-energy women actually do better with a passive husband who kind of lets her run things. Think Bernadette & Howard on *The Big Bang Theory.* 

A romantic relationship is exactly like ballroom dancing. Only one person can lead. If both try to lead, they'll battle over where to go. If no one leads, they'll just stand there and go nowhere. If one leads, and cares for his partner, they can dance beautifully for the rest of their lives.

(Again: We are talking Romantic Relationship here. Not getting an education, getting a job, or playing a sport. Women can be as aggressive and masculine as they want for those things and it'll work fine. But if she refuses to turn that off for the Romantic Relationship, it's going to be one disaster after another. Unless she marries Howard.)

[okerry]

On 8/25/2016 at 0:47 AM, Magoo said:

Agree to strongly disagree with the idea that Heather needs to learn anything about being feminine, whatever that might mean. She may not be some magazine ideal of soft and meek and pleasing to all men, 

No. NOT "all men." Just the ones she interested in. Especially if she 's married to them. She's not interested in Derek so she's shut down her feminine side in front of him and that's what we're seeing.

[booboopbedoo]

I think it would be hard enough to make this work without cameras or someone always watching you.

I do not like any of the men - Waschlappen as my Oma would say.

Means facecloth.

[Nowhere]

The only man I'd be attracted to is Nick but as soon as he told me to wear one of his t-shirts, I'd be a bit leery of his intent. 

[holly4755]

hey! are we picking on Nick because his dogs take preference?  My dogs would take preference over someone I knew for only a week, and my dogs always win dog haters over. Ihada neighbor who was attacked by dogs as a child and when I walked over to introduce myself with t\my dog, he grabbed his children and put them behind him. but they grew to love my dog and I think it helped the father get over his fear.  I think that Sonia could learn to love his dogs - dog people are good people and that is all Ihave to say, unless you are training your dog to be an attack dog, that is a different matte, dog as family is a good thing.  

[Evil Queen]

1 hour ago, Nowhere said:

The only man I'd be attracted to is Nick but as soon as he told me to wear one of his t-shirts, I'd be a bit leery of his intent. 

I'd leery of it as well but soooo do not find him attractive.

1 hour ago, holly4755 said:

hey! are we picking on Nick because his dogs take preference?  My dogs would take preference over someone I knew for only a week, and my dogs always win dog haters over. Ihada neighbor who was attacked by dogs as a child and when I walked over to introduce myself with t\my dog, he grabbed his children and put them behind him. but they grew to love my dog and I think it helped the father get over his fear.  I think that Sonia could learn to love his dogs - dog people are good people and that is all Ihave to say, unless you are training your dog to be an attack dog, that is a different matte, dog as family is a good thing.  

I was bit by one in my 20s and end up in the ER to get stitches in a finger from it. That was the dog my idiot sister brought home and my mom the idiot dog lover she is kept it and didn't care that it wasn't friendly like at all. Didn't give a crap it bit me either. Its one of the few times I can remember my dad ever putting his foot down on something and he made sure that dog was gone. I am not a fan of dogs (cat person) BUT I know there are good and bad owners. As well as good and bad dogs. I do get leery over certain kinds though. I just don't think for those with major fears need to be throw into something like this when they are suppose to live together. It basically can go one way or the other with how her fear is. 

[absolutelyido]

20 hours ago, Kiss my mutt said:

Derrick just doesn't have presence to me. He just seems like the tag along goofball friend and not just doesn't have any game. Heather has more striking presence and she's not petite like Derrick is. He's scrawny, pasty, unkempt with a voice and hairdo like peewee Herman. Just my personal opinion of course. He would definitely be friend zoned pretty quickly. 

I wonder why he didn't stay in the navy? If you score high enough to get into the defense language institute they tend to work hard to retain you after making that investment with reenlisting bonuses etc and my army veteran husband who was offered a placement there said if they didn't work to retain Derrick by sweetening the deal that it usually meant a conduct issue or nonprofficieny in the job. But he could have just gotten tired of the life and said f it though. He pretty much pegged this guy as navy after watching a few episodes with me. 

Heather definitely has a resting bitch face to me and is likely somewhat of a bitch anyway but I can't fault her for not being into this dude. 

I agree about Derrick. The more I see of him, the more he turns me off. The tank tops he always wears--probably to show off his awesome (not) tattoos--along with the backwards hat just make him look like a goofball kid. Not that I am a Heather fan. I think she can be snobby and uptight.

20 hours ago, Palomar said:

Derek needs to quit complaining about Heather....it just looks petty at this point.  He's not going to change anything by trying to fight back and it is obvious she is checked out and obvious even to the experts has put up a permanent wall. 

Heather needs to at least stop being RUDE.  Yes, it was rude to rush out of whatever hole they were in without a mention she was leaving as they were supposed to be doing the activity together....common courtesy .  If she was with a friend, she would have said let's go up or I'm going up. Why be so rude to him.  Maybe he wouldn't have to complain about her if she would give him at least the common courtesy she would give a friend or a surfing instructor.  Both of them are not the type to ever let anything go.  I'm sure she would leave now but wants her $$$ for the 6 weeks and whatever fame she thinks she is going to get. 

At least the other 2 couples have potential and are nice to each other.

I think Heather is intentionally being rude because she doesn't want to come right out and say to Derrick's face that she can't even stand being around him. So, she rides her bike ahead of him and intentionally leaves the cave without telling him to send him that message by her actions rather than words.

At first I thought Derrick was overreacting about Heather touching the surf instructor, but now I kind of see why he felt offended. Derrick has gotten the message from Heather that she does not want him to touch her, whether she said that to him or just pulled away when he has tried touch her, we don't really know. Then Heather supposedly brushed a bug off the instructor's bare chest. As I thought more about that, I asked myself if I would have done that to someone I barely knew and I don't think I would. I think I would just say, "Hey, you've got a bug on your chest".  I don't think Heather was flirting with the instructor by touching him like that, but rather sending the message to Derrick that she's not opposed to touching a man, she's just opposed to touching HIM. Derrick got that message and was naturally offended. (I do think the instructor taking Heather's hand to help her through the waves was completely innocent. The waves were big and I could see how they could have easily knocked her over.)

[Lily247]

5 hours ago, okerry said:

 

These things go back to the cave-man days and are in our DNA. Unfortunately, they're no longer politically correct, so we end up with millions of people who end up in one failed relationship after another until finally they wake up one day and they're on MAFS - and still failing.

Took the words right out of my mouth, okerry. It IS biological, but a lot of people wont accept that fact because its not PC. Ive known guys who like women that are take-charge romantically and carry a masculine energy, but those guys are definitely more passive and it works all right for them if they are happy. 

If you ask me, possessing a feminine energy does wonders in making a woman more attractive even if they are not conventionally beautiful. 

[Aethera]

Folks, please, we've asked many times - please stop referencing social media, or any other outside-of-episode content, in the episode threads.  We have a social media thread for those posts!

[Passthepopcorn]

23 hours ago, okerry said:

No. NOT "all men." Just the ones she interested in. Especially if she 's married to them. She's not interested in Derek so she's shut down her feminine side in front of him and that's what we're seeing.

Agree! It's the basic instinct of rejecting the male that doesn't feel right, that doesn't fit you. You naturally become distant, wary. And if he tries to approach, you show your teeth, your ugly face (even though she is not ugly). It's nature, it's chemistry.  Some men are able to break through and "win" her trust and change the lady's mind, charm her, you may say, but not always. I think in this case, it won't happen.

Note: Of course, sometimes, the female is the one who pursuits the male. But I'm describing this case in a very basic/animal way lol.

Edited August 27, 2016 by Passthepopcorn

[JennyMominFL]

19 hours ago, kat12379 said:

Took the words right out of my mouth, okerry. It IS biological, but a lot of people wont accept that fact because its not PC. Ive known guys who like women that are take-charge romantically and carry a masculine energy, but those guys are definitely more passive and it works all right for them if they are happy. 

If you ask me, possessing a feminine energy does wonders in making a woman more attractive even if they are not conventionally beautiful. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 As someone with a double Major in Anthropology(Cultural) and History, I would have to argue against this. Ideas of what is masculine and what is feminine are learned through enculturation, and very across history  and location. Now I will say that modern western society has its own beliefs about gender. But they are not universal. Most hunter-gatherer societies were egalitarian and there are large fauna sites(mammoth for one) where the bodies of women hunters were found with men. In fact, one of the most famous megafauna kill site finds, Tepixpan Man, was actually a women.

Gender Rolls didn't really develop until the neolithic era when we became sedentary. There are cultures today where women are expected to be loud and aggressive while men are quiet and passive(Gapun, Papua New Guinea). But Heather and Derek don't live in a society like that. He seems to want her to conform to standardized western gender norms.

Edited August 27, 2016 by JennyMominFL

[Zuleikha]

It IS biological, but a lot of people wont accept that fact because its not PC.

Or because it's not at all true. It's not hard to have an egalitarian romantic relationship... you discuss things until you come to consensus or you take turns compromising or one person leads because it's his/her area of expertise and then the other leads when it's his/her turn (and note that those are all choices that can happen in the same relationship). And in successful complementary relationships, there's no inherent reason why the man has to be the leader and the woman the yielder. It can be whoever is more comfortable taking the leadership role. Like how on earth do you guys arguing for the absolute necessity of masculine/feminine energy think same-sex relationships work?

There is zero reason for Heather to yield more simply because she's a woman or for Derek to assert himself more. Their problems are because they don't have compatible interests and personalities, not because she's too masculine energy.

[Snarklepuss]

On 8/24/2016 at 3:16 PM, kat12379 said:

From what we are seeing, I disagree. I don't think Heather is any classier than Derek, a superiority complex can't hide that. Derek seems like the type of person who smiles easily and is friendly, to a point. From the way she was chanting "chug it" I get the feeling that she is an experienced boozer. Neil from last season was so soooo passive, even Sam told him she is used to guys who act more aggressively. I think Derek's age comment was coming from a place of hurt - and yes, many men do have fragile egos and I don't think it's okay to exhibit such rudeness like Heather has. 

My agreeing with Heather that Derek was "low class" didn't mean I thought SHE had any class, just that I agreed with her comment about him.  I don't care if his comment came from a "place of hurt".  He still doesn't get a pass from me for insulting all of womankind because of it.  I could never defend a guy under any circumstances for doing that.  "He didn't really mean it" doesn't fly for me.  He DID mean it.   It revealed an attitude in him towards women I would never condone in any man for any reason even if he was "hurt".  I would never insult all men just because one man rejected me.  To me that shows him to be damaged goods.

[Snarklepuss]

On 8/24/2016 at 9:49 PM, ctbabe said:

I noticed that there is an excuse for everything Heather does and everything she says is gospel truth.  But anything Derek says is false even though we can see he speaks the truth.

If they both cough, the assumption would be that Heather coughed because Derek was stressing her but Derek coughed because he is an asshole..

No, IMHO Derek isn't an asshole for no reason.  He's an asshole for potentially misrepresenting his smoking habit, potentially smoking an illegal substance on his honeymoon after just marrying a stranger, then acting defensive and like a teenager about it when his new wife gets upset about it, then putting his foot in his mouth to insult all women on national TV because his widdle ego feelings are so fragile and easily bruised that he can't seem to stop himself from making foolish inflammatory statements that only make him look bad.  That doesn't mean I think everything Heather has said and done is golden, just that he's an asshole for his own reasons.

[Neurochick]

4 hours ago, Snarklepuss said:

He still doesn't get a pass from me for insulting all of womankind because of it.  I could never defend a guy under any circumstances for doing that.  "He didn't really mean it" doesn't fly for me.  He DID mean it.   It revealed an attitude in him towards women I would never condone in any man for any reason even if he was "hurt".  I would never insult all men just because one man rejected me.  To me that shows him to be damaged goods.

How do you know Derek meant it.  Just because you wouldn't insult all men because one rejected you, doesn't mean other women haven't said things like, "I hate men, they should be kept like piggies in a pen" (an actual lyric from a song in South Pacific).  So are all those women who have said things like, "men are dogs" damaged goods?  I realize that just because I would or wouldn't do something, doesn't mean everybody else should do as I do.

I wonder if this show would be better if instead of going on a honeymoon, they went straight into married life.  The reason is, people can be very different on vacation than they are in real life.  I have gone on many cruises and one thing I have noticed is that there are people who flip the script when they're on the ship; they gamble, drink, spend money, act out.  But in their real lives, they're not like that.  I watch this show called "Rock This Boat" about these New Kids on the Block cruises and it's interesting how these fans act on the ship, versus how they act in real life.  

[seasick]

I think the 'beer bong' and 'chug it' comments were Heather's pathetic attempt to redeem herself from being seen as a miserable, sour, mud stick such as she was/is.   Sort of a "I'm really cool and fun but because of DEREK I'm a total (rude) depression pill.  

When you don't find someone attractive, don't like their habits or lifestyle--how is that THEIR fault?   How does that become an excuse to be rude. Rudeness is on the rude.  Period.  

So it wasn't the right match for you-- you are disappointed that it didn't meet your expectations.  It happens.  Grow TFU and stop boo-hooing and taking your disappointment out on and blaming your match for not being what YOU wanted them to be.  

[ctbabe]

29 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

How do you know Derek meant it.  Just because you wouldn't insult all men because one rejected you, doesn't mean other women haven't said things like, "I hate men, they should be kept like piggies in a pen" (an actual lyric from a song in South Pacific).  So are all those women who have said things like, "men are dogs" damaged goods?  I realize that just because I would or wouldn't do something, doesn't mean everybody else should do as I do.

I wonder if this show would be better if instead of going on a honeymoon, they went straight into married life.  The reason is, people can be very different on vacation than they are in real life.  I have gone on many cruises and one thing I have noticed is that there are people who flip the script when they're on the ship; they gamble, drink, spend money, act out.  But in their real lives, they're not like that.  I watch this show called "Rock This Boat" about these New Kids on the Block cruises and it's interesting how these fans act on the ship, versus how they act in real life.  

Hugggg, you are smart...  I have said I hate all men that they should all die.. did I mean it? Nope but at that time, I was just too hurt to think. 

[Neurochick]

Something else about Derek and Heather.  Before Derek made the tasteless milk/wine comment he said that he knows his looks aren't everybody's cup of tea, and then he said about Heather "she's not my type either."  Even though he said that, he's still willing to go continue with this process/show/whatever.  Heather isn't.  

I have known people who have been married for years who've said that their husband/wife wasn't the type of person they normally were attracted to.  I find that interesting.  I think attraction is complicated today because we're exposed to so many different faces, in the media.  People used to be attracted to who they saw in their daily lives, now people are attracted to celebrities, who we see every day on TV or the Internet, so who we're attracted to may be skewed.  

I think Heather's problem with finding love is that she makes snap judgements.  She knows what she wants and what she doesn't want and won't deviate from that.  

[seasick]

It's going to be a long unhappy walk through life if Heather can't bother to be friendly and kind--or at least polite and mannerly--to those who she does not find attractive or have the same lifestyle choices that she has made.

It would have been more mature to simply be honest and say 'I can see our lifestyles don't mesh and honestly I'm not feeling sparks", rather than being an ass in hopes he will back off.  Heather's too busy feeling sorry for herself to be an adult about it

I agree that Heather is not Derek's type.  Bitter, sour,  cold, rude and shallow only appeal the the few that have suggested that a pair of double D's under the age of 24 is their heart-throb. Then apparently none of that personality stuff matters as long as they have the image to show off to others.

[Jack Sampson]

1 hour ago, Neurochick said:

I think Heather's problem with finding love is that she makes snap judgements.  She knows what she wants and what she doesn't want and won't deviate from that.  

I would say it's that she's too burned out and too self-involved to love anyone but herself.  There may be a guy out there who she'd tolerate if he was rich or exceedingly good looking but love is beyond her.

37 minutes ago, seasick said:

I agree that Heather is not Derek's type.  Bitter, sour,  cold, rude and shallow only appeal the the few that have suggested that a pair of double D's under the age of 24 is their heart-throb. Then apparently none of that personality stuff matters as long as they have the image to show off to others.

Notice how much friendlier she acted while drunk?  If Derek realized the marriage wasn't going to work but still wanted to have sex with her, he'd just keep her drinking.  Her partygirl brain is so programmed from years of having sex with anyone buying her drinks that it would be a slam dunk.

I used to live in Vegas and saw a fresh batch of girls like Heather every weekend.  It was a waste of time to approach at 3 in the afternoon but the exact same women were drunk at the clubs later screaming, "Woooooooo!  I'm so hornaaaaayyyyyy!!!" in a desperate attempt to make everyone think they were fun. 

[Snarklepuss]

On 8/24/2016 at 6:40 PM, Jack Sampson said:

A. Correct.

B. Nothing wrong with it per se - but, if heather wants a man to stick around, she'll learn how to be.

No she won't, IMHO.  I have said this before, but I have known plenty of women like Heather who have had no trouble finding a guy without having to learn how to be obsequious or "demure", or whatever you want to call it <insert feminine adjective here>.  My mother was a case in point.  She was the leader and my father was the follower in that relationship.  She was the rational, and he was the feeling type.  She was the Field Marshall, but despite the fact that my father was an army captain, he was like her corporal.  My father enjoyed being of service to people.  My mother loved to boss people around.  It worked.  She would have made a great CEO.  BTW, they had a fantastic marriage that lasted 50 years until she died.  The dynamics of romantic relationships can't be generalized.  As the old wives of eons past used to say, "There's a pot for every cover".  The trouble is that Heather was not the pot for Derek's cover.  Regardless of anything that happened between them, IMHO they were temperamentally a mismatch from the get go.  Heather needed someone more like Jason is to Cortney.  Someone who would accept a woman with a strong "take charge" personality.  Derek is not that person.

[Snarklepuss]

5 hours ago, Neurochick said:

I think Heather's problem with finding love is that she makes snap judgements.  She knows what she wants and what she doesn't want and won't deviate from that.  

I agree, it is a problem but snap judgments aren't necessarily a bad thing, IMO, because they can be correct.  And I can't blame someone for making a snap judgment that prevents them from getting involved with the wrong person.  It's when snap judgments are based on past baggage and are thus incorrect that they can be a bad thing.  Based on what I have seen with my own eyes about Derek, I think I'm seeing a case for Heather's snap judgment about him being a sound one.  Not even that he was a bad person, but that he was just not right for her.  I don't think it's all about her past baggage not allowing her to try to make a relationship work with him.  I think it's based on self knowledge and something she has really seen about him that she knows would never work for her, not something she just imagined or projected onto him.  I could be wrong, but that's what I think I'm seeing here.

[jamblastx]

42 minutes ago, Snarklepuss said:

I agree, it is a problem but snap judgments aren't necessarily a bad thing, IMO, because they can be correct.  And I can't blame someone for making a snap judgment that prevents them from getting involved with the wrong person.  It's when snap judgments are based on past baggage and are thus incorrect that they can be a bad thing.  Based on what I have seen with my own eyes about Derek, I think I'm seeing a case for Heather's snap judgment about him being a sound one.  Not even that he was a bad person, but that he was just not right for her.  I don't think it's all about her past baggage not allowing her to try to make a relationship work with him.  I think it's based on self knowledge and something she has really seen about him that she knows would never work for her, not something she just imagined or projected onto him.  I could be wrong, but that's what I think I'm seeing here.

I agree...I killed Heather after the first Honeymoon episode because I thought she was clearly dealing with previous baggage and making Derek pay for other people's sins.  But after the last episode, I have shifted completely the other way and think that she saw something specifically with Derek that were reasonable red flags.  That said, I still think that she may be too judgy (I am still on the fence about the gambling as we do not know what has been said by Derek off camera other than the 'hey look, the resort has a casino' comment that we saw which is clearly not a 'sign' that he has a gambling problem).

They both could have handled this situation better....they are two people that are in an arranged marriage that met less than a week ago.  Rather than pigeonholing each other in roles like 'you are my wife, you have to be affectionate to me!' and ridiculously high expectations, they should have had a discussion early on just to have fun on the honeymoon and no matter what, make the best of the situation. 

Maybe because I am a guy and I put myself in the 'groom's' shoes but I cannot help but think that since Derek did seem to have some strong attachments to Heather from the beginning, that he could have done so much to change things.  I feel as if there have been a few crossroads where rather than taking the 'right' road or the 'wrong' road, he created a new 'disastrous hell' road and went down that path.

[Nowhere]

Maybe some people need to go back in the dvr and watch again because Heather and Derek cuddled on their first night together. While we may not prefer Heather's demeanor and she may have an attitude sometimes, she has not been completely closed off from him from the beginning. I think, because of all the comparisons with Ashley from last season, people are getting confused and pinning Ashley's  shit on Heather. Funny how Derek said she wouldn't let her touch him but the first time they were in bed together they were cuddling and Heather was smiling. Obviously something happened between the wedding night and the honeymoon and I think it was all the cigarette smoking that turned her off. Then when she tried to talk about the subject, they clashed. They don't know how to communicate with each other which can kill a new relationship. Being called an alcoholic probably didn't help just like it probably didn't help Derek's attitude at all when he was called low class. 

I don't think it's right to imply that Heather was a party girl with "years of having sex with anyone buying her drinks" just because we don't like her personality. Can we just talk about the show and not speculate as to how many partners she's had previously? What does it matter?

There was absolutely nothing wrong with them having drinks together and having some fun for once. I think it's weird that some of you are acting like she's a bad person because she drank some wine. What is this the 1920's? Earth to everyone. Prohibition ended a long time ago.

[Enero]

53 minutes ago, Snarklepuss said:

I agree, it is a problem but snap judgments aren't necessarily a bad thing, IMO, because they can be correct.  And I can't blame someone for making a snap judgment that prevents them from getting involved with the wrong person.  It's when snap judgments are based on past baggage and are thus incorrect that they can be a bad thing.  Based on what I have seen with my own eyes about Derek, I think I'm seeing a case for Heather's snap judgment about him being a sound one.  Not even that he was a bad person, but that he was just not right for her.  I don't think it's all about her past baggage not allowing her to try to make a relationship work with him.  I think it's based on self knowledge and something she has really seen about him that she knows would never work for her, not something she just imagined or projected onto him.  I could be wrong, but that's what I think I'm seeing here.

I completely agree. Heather gets a lot of antipathy here, but I think she saw who Derek was and she wasn't interested. I'm one of the few that think she DID try and push through her lack of attraction to him. As I've said before she was agreeable to him on the first couple of episodes. However, something happened off camera IMHO that confirmed for her that she and Derek will never work. As a result, she completely checked out of the "process." 

I also agree that it's ludicrous to think that Heather is doomed to be alone for the rest of her life. Would the same be said if one of the male participants was a complete bastard? I doubt it. 

As you've so eloquently pointed out, there are plenty of relationships out there that work with a woman who is take charge like Heather seems to be. As Derek rightfully pointed out he and Heather are like oil and water. They were never going to work. 

[Jack Sampson]

4 minutes ago, Nowhere said:

Maybe some people need to go back in the dvr and watch again because Heather and Derek cuddled on their first night together.

They cuddled on camera for a few seconds.  Like the wedding picture, the cameraman could have been giving direction for that.  "We need an opening shot.  Cuddle together and we'll make it look like you slept that way all night."

[Nowhere]

24 minutes ago, Jack Sampson said:

They cuddled on camera for a few seconds.  Like the wedding picture, the cameraman could have been giving direction for that.  "We need an opening shot.  Cuddle together and we'll make it look like you slept that way all night."

So you're saying that they stage and edit the show to create a storyline?

[humbleopinion]

Don't all reality show participants have to take the "Cross My Heart and Hope to Die Honor Pledge?"

Color me shocked.

[Passthepopcorn]

7 hours ago, Neurochick said:

Something else about Derek and Heather.  Before Derek made the tasteless milk/wine comment he said that he knows his looks aren't everybody's cup of tea, and then he said about Heather "she's not my type either."  Even though he said that, he's still willing to go continue with this process/show/whatever.  Heather isn't.  

I have known people who have been married for years who've said that their husband/wife wasn't the type of person they normally were attracted to.  I find that interesting.

I remember Derek's friend saying that when they first saw Heather they thought she was beautiful, but not the type Derek usually dates. So it is true. He is able to get past the initial "this is not my type". He is (or was until now) open to trying, maybe out of curiosity (why were we paired?), or maybe because you are already investing so much when you take this leap of faith.

Agree with your 2nd statement. So many people say " I never thought I would marry who I married" and yet, it works.

[seasick]

Just now, Jack Sampson said:

They cuddled on camera for a few seconds.  Like the wedding picture, the cameraman could have been giving direction for that.  "We need an opening shot.  Cuddle together and we'll make it look like you slept that way all night."

I'm pretty sure this is true.  I recall Derek saying that there was no cuddling the first night even though the first shot was of them close together. 

 

Just now, Enero said:

 

As you've so eloquently pointed out, there are plenty of relationships out there that work with a woman who is take charge like Heather seems to be. As Derek rightfully pointed out he and Heather are like oil and water. They were never going to work. 

I didn't see Heather as 'take charge" so much as rigid, critical, rude and liking things to be her way.   I can't think of any instances where I saw her 'take charge'.  She whined a lot, and seemed bored and unhappy from the brunch.   

I'm no fan of Derek anymore.  He is childish too.  He's too defensive and lashes out in an ugly way when his feeling are hurt.   He was too blindly optimistic and enthusiastic about the marriage before he got to know Heather and was blindsided by her criticism.   I don't think it helped that she had been distant and then started treating him like crap before telling him what her reason was.   But IMO this was doomed to fail even without the pot smoking.  She seems born unhappy and anal,   and Derek is just an overgown kid.  

[Passthepopcorn]

1 hour ago, Nowhere said:

There was absolutely nothing wrong with them having drinks together and having some fun for once. I think it's weird that some of you are acting like she's a bad person because she drank some wine. What is this the 1920's? Earth to everyone. Prohibition ended a long time ago.

Nothing wrong with going to a restaurant and having some drinks. But that didn't look like fun to me at all. It was honestly sad to watch. And it didn't seem like "some wine". It seem like a lot, as in getting drunk to forget the hellish week we've had instead of having drinks so we can talk and spend time together. The drinks should be the excuse to meet, not the reason to meet.

[Negritude]

On Wednesday, August 24, 2016 at 5:34 AM, HZAnita said:

The Defense Language Institute is a great opportunity for young military service members.  Imagine being 19 or 20 and speaking fluent Hindi, Russian, or Urdu.

On topic, I do agree that Derek was hurt and upset, but, in the very best case scenario, that was pretty stupid to say on camera. 

Did Derek go to DLI? I almost did (couldn't pass the entry exam) but I served with many DLI grads during my time in the Navy and my experience was that many of them were extremely intelligent. He gets points for liking Ghostface Killah but he does have a touch of bitch-assness...well maybe more than a touch.

[Neurochick]

2 hours ago, Snarklepuss said:

Based on what I have seen with my own eyes about Derek, I think I'm seeing a case for Heather's snap judgment about him being a sound one.  Not even that he was a bad person, but that he was just not right for her.  I don't think it's all about her past baggage not allowing her to try to make a relationship work with him.  I think it's based on self knowledge and something she has really seen about him that she knows would never work for her, not something she just imagined or projected onto him.  I could be wrong, but that's what I think I'm seeing here.

I disagree, I think it is baggage and I base that on her comment about Derek when he mentioned the casino.  It was like a bell went off in her head and she saw Derek in a different light.  This is why maybe going on a honeymoon after being married "at first sight" isn't a great idea.  Some people are different on vacation than they are in real life.  

[seasick]

3 hours ago, Neurochick said:

I disagree, I think it is baggage and I base that on her comment about Derek when he mentioned the casino.  It was like a bell went off in her head and she saw Derek in a different light.  This is why maybe going on a honeymoon after being married "at first sight" isn't a great idea.  Some people are different on vacation than they are in real life.  

But that's why the experiment is 6 weeks.   They do get a taste of many aspects of a relationship.  Yes people do act differently on vacation but hopefully they wait to see the bigger picture in the weeks to come as planned.   Tom and Lily could be all hugs and kisses now but after a long frustrating day at work could be the type to sulk and be miserable all night. (justifiable homicide BTW)

I wish Heather would lighten up, realize pot smoking, messier than me and gambling is not the end of the world.  It's 6 weeks.  Maybe you'll grow from the experience.

Sonia and Nick may have something by taking it so slowly now.  Maybe--just Maybe they are waiting for a fuller picture of how this relationship will pan out thru all the (albeit accelerated) aspects of married life

They didn't just agree to get married (and have a wedding and honeymoon and all the fantasy stuff).and live happily ever after.  They agreed to do a 6 week social experiment.   

Edited August 28, 2016 by seasick
typo

[HZAnita]

1 hour ago, Negritude said:

Did Derek go to DLI? I almost did (couldn't pass the entry exam) but I served with many DLI grads during my time in the Navy and my experience was that many of them were extremely intelligent. He gets points for liking Ghostface Killah but he does have a touch of bitch-assness...well maybe more than a touch.

Yes, he did.  They showed a quick flash of his diploma/certificate/degree during the matchmaking episode and I noticed because, once upon a time, my family spent some time at the Naval Postgraduate School.  You do have to be intelligent to be chosen to go to DLI because the languages you learn there are pretty intense (e.g., Mandarin, Arabic).  Plus, you get the perk of living in gorgeous Monterey without being a millionaire. :)

[zxy556575]

2 hours ago, Enero said:

I'm one of the few that think she DID try and push through her lack of attraction to him. As I've said before she was agreeable to him on the first couple of episodes.

I agree. We saw Heather being politely tactful on her wedding day and family brunch. She was never excited or enthusiastic about Derek but tried to put a good face on it. (However, her eye rolling and impatience during the enforced photo shoot were pretty indicative of her true feelings.) So while she initially tried to stay positive, she quickly went from barely tolerating Derek to active dislike, which she now can't be bothered to hide. To me, she started at 3 and is now at 0 on the respect-o-meter.

Not that Derek is blameless, because he's behaved just as badly, but in different ways.

[Nowhere]

The photographer really shouldn't push them on each other like that. Is it typical for a wedding photographer to ask for intimate type poses like kissing on the neck? 

[KateHearts]

The main vibe I get from Heather is flat.  She doesn't smile with her eyes. She's not animated. I can be around people I'm not interested in having a deep or long term relationship and fake it somewhat, joke around... try to make the best of the time. She just doesn't. Her eyes are expressionless.  

I don't get the whole "Tom is creepy" thing.  He just seems like a rather mundane guy who lives in a bus, in a parking lot, with the wheels covered up.

Nick is my favorite.  He's got a deadpan sense of humor, but it's there.  Sonia was hesitant, but not totally flat like Heather... just cautious. That's fine. they are warming up to one another.

[Snarklepuss]

On 8/25/2016 at 1:31 AM, Jack Sampson said:

I've never met a man who prefers women who act manly.  He might end up with one, but it's never a first choice.

Maybe there's a niche market out there of dudes who are straight but prefer manly women - hell, even the Williams sisters have men in their lives.  But, if Heather wants to find a husband, she's better off playing the odds and acting in a way that attracts the vast majority of men.

I don't think Heather is "manly" at all.  She has a dominant, very decisive, intelligent, rational personality for sure, but that doesn't translate into "manly".  And judging from the many men I have known in my lifetime who like dominant women, I doubt "the vast majority" of men only like girly girls.  In fact, most men I know tend to like women somewhere in the middle between extremes.  I don't even think Heather is anywhere near the extreme for a dominant woman.  I have met them who seem far more severe than she is.  Come work in the corporate world, I'll introduce you to some female executives that fit that mold far more than Heather does! 

Anyway, "manly" connotes masculine attributes, something that as a straight woman I take great pride in recognizing and appreciating in men but find a bit repulsive in women.  No way no how does Heather resemble masculinity in my view.  She doesn't come CLOSE.  In fact during this entire season she seems hyper estrogenic like she's PMS-ing all the time - Which is being female "on steroids".  Likely a function of her disappointment and negative mood over Derek.  But it's still all female all the time, IMHO.

[Snarklepuss]

On 8/25/2016 at 1:57 PM, Koda1969 said:

The only reason I might appear to be ragging on her more, is that her body language to me is off-putting. She always seems to be on guard, arms folded, looking around, surveying things and people. In a way, it goes to what the pastor said about letting her walls down. If she is scared, nervous, angry...no problem. But just speak up about it. At the worst he'll look at you and say "get lost" (and in which case, good riddance) or best case scenario, they learn to grow closer. It just seems that she is wary, nervous and doesn't really like him. So, she isn't making a ton of effort (of course, based on editing).

IMO, the only reason Heather looks that way is because she's upset at what disappointed her and then later after arguments angered her about Derek.  If she felt she had just met the guy of her dreams I'm sure she'd be looking far nicer and softer.  It's kind of not fair IMO to judge her based on being upset.  People never look their best when they're angry and depressed.  She may have good reasons to be disappointed - she just got royally let down in a huge way, I don't get why it's not understandable for her to be upset.   I don't know why she should be trying at all at this point if Derek embodies a few deal breakers in her mind.  Deal breakers are deal breakers.

IMO, the only reason Derek seems so much "nicer" is because he hasn't been as disappointed.  Perhaps he didn't care as much about being rejected or he's too immature for it to hit him like it really matters not to have this work out.  Sometimes I think people mistake a "what me worry" attitude for being "nice" when it's just irresponsibility, being clueless or not caring one way or the other.  Meanwhile they mistake someone showing anger for them being nasty when it's just that they cared so much about wanting to find the right person that it comes out as anger.  Anger is not always a negative thing, IMHO.  People who show anger are not always wrong, nasty, a bitch, "manly" or whatever people want to label them.  Sometimes being angry is an appropriate response given the circumstances and the level of caring a person has for the outcome of a relationship.  I think Heather is angry in a big way but I am not going to judge her for it.  I think it shows me she cared a lot about finding the right person that she was angry at finding out Derek was likely not that person given the deal breakers she feels he embodies.  Should she be more open to him?  No, his deal breaker is a pretty big one as far as I can tell.  I am sure there is more to it than that but I have a feeling I would sympathize with her if I knew the whole story.  I just know there's more to this story that would not put Derek in a very good light.

[ctbabe]

35 minutes ago, Snarklepuss said:

IMO, the only reason Heather looks that way is because she's upset at what disappointed her and then later after arguments angered her about Derek.  If she felt she had just met the guy of her dreams I'm sure she'd be looking far nicer and softer.  It's kind of not fair IMO to judge her based on being upset.  People never look their best when they're angry and depressed.  She may have good reasons to be disappointed - she just got royally let down in a huge way, I don't get why it's not understandable for her to be upset.   I don't know why she should be trying at all at this point if Derek embodies a few deal breakers in her mind.  Deal breakers are deal breakers.

IMO, the only reason Derek seems so much "nicer" is because he hasn't been as disappointed.  Perhaps he didn't care as much about being rejected or he's too immature for it to hit him like it really matters not to have this work out.  Sometimes I think people mistake a "what me worry" attitude for being "nice" when it's just irresponsibility, being clueless or not caring one way or the other.  Meanwhile they mistake someone showing anger for them being nasty when it's just that they cared so much about wanting to find the right person that it comes out as anger.  Anger is not always a negative thing, IMHO.  People who show anger are not always wrong, nasty, a bitch, "manly" or whatever people want to label them.  Sometimes being angry is an appropriate response given the circumstances and the level of caring a person has for the outcome of a relationship.  I think Heather is angry in a big way but I am not going to judge her for it.  I think it shows me she cared a lot about finding the right person that she was angry at finding out Derek was likely not that person given the deal breakers she feels he embodies.  Should she be more open to him?  No, his deal breaker is a pretty big one as far as I can tell.  I am sure there is more to it than that but I have a feeling I would sympathize with her if I knew the whole story.  I just know there's more to this story that would not put Derek in a very good light.

I actually think you are wrong about the last part. (Since this is a no spoioer thread, i would hold my peace). i actually think Derek is an open book. For the main fact, he decided to be himself with Heather by smoking a day after wedding (dumb Idea), I think what you see what you get. I do think something else might be happening but on Heather's side. The pastor said things would be revealed as time passes. 

Edited August 28, 2016 by ctbabe
Remover spoilers

[Negritude]

On Wednesday, August 24, 2016 at 10:31 PM, Jack Sampson said:

Maybe there's a niche market out there of dudes who are straight but prefer manly women - hell, even the Williams sisters have men in their lives.  

FWIW Serena Williams would be 1st choice for a lotta dudes I know lol.

[Snarklepuss]

On 8/25/2016 at 2:58 PM, watch2much said:

I actually think Heather thought Derek was cute and was optimistic.  But didn't he smoke (and I DO think it's dope) the night of the wedding?  and the very next morning?  I think that turned her off.  she may have said she was ok with occasional use but I would be taken aback by his use right away.  Say what you will about the evils of drinking vs dope, but the fact remains that one is legal and one isn't and people are used to having cocktails at weddings, not smoking a joint....at least not when you are in your 30s.  I think it was a lot to hit her right away and then they get to Puerto Rico and he obviously traveled with an illegal substance which might have made her uncomfortable. Maybe she realized at this point it was a deal breaker and instead of trying to talk it out, she retreated.   So at that point, she was hyper sensitive to his faults and so an innocent comment about the casino was magnified.  Meanwhile, he's all "I love being called Mr. and Mrs." and wants physical touch when she's not sure if she can even respect him.  I think the surf and cave day, she started out with a fresh slate and was remarking about his good points.  she seemed to be having a good time.  But instead of working with that,  he keys in on some really minor instances because his ego is fragile.  Then at the caves they both were having a good time and maybe it was a miscommunication but she started leaving.  She was being considerate of other people there, which I think is admirable.  But no, you neglected your husband. Then he dumps all the stuff about the surf instructor and flicking a bug off his chest as though that can be compared with romantic touching and then leaving before him.  I can understand her just having enough.  I've been in her position and it feels like someone slapped you because you think you are having a good time then someone starts getting on you for something you thought nothing of.  I don't see anything they have in common. He wants another mother who caters to him and tells him how great he is. She's well traveled, he didn't even have a  passport.  And frankly, the minute I saw those tattoos, my attraction would've died immediately.  They are stupid and gross and look kind of new.  I wouldn't want to be seen with him.  and at that point, I would have been knocking back the wine to get thru the night, too.

Actually, your post reminded me of a blind date I once had that reminds me a little of Derek and Heather.

Once about 12 years ago Mr. Snarkle and I were almost divorced (thankfully we later reconciled) when I started to do the dating sites to meet someone.  I wasn't having the best luck so I thought I should widen my search a bit and let down some of my "requirements".  I decided to put down that I was OK with men under 5'6" tall (I am 5'2").  I actually remember dating some shorter men in my youth so I figured I should be more open minded.

Sometime later I heard from a man who said he was 5'4" tall.  I wasn't getting any younger and I figured it depended on the guy whether I could find him attractive.  In his photo he looked OK so I figured I'd meet him.  I was never into long drawn out "getting to know you" emailing.  Long story short, I don't think he was even 5' tall.  He probably qualified to be a "little person" judging from his proportions.  I first met him sitting down and didn't see how short he was until he got up.  I am sure that was deliberate on his part.  All of a sudden everything crashed down.  Here I was stuck on what was technically a blind date with a little person who had lied to me about his height.  Not that we were really hitting it off anyway, mind you.

I am sure there are many people out there who would call me shallow, but I immediately turned off to him but I was so embarrassed and unable to find a graceful way out of it that I stuck out the date far longer than I wanted to.  All I could think about (like Heather) is how this guy misrepresented himself and his height was a deal breaker for me.  It wouldn't have mattered if he was the nicest guy on earth, although I realized after talking to him that he was a little messed up.  I am sure Heather felt the same way with Derek.  She's angry because he mislead or misrepresented himself and now she's the one horribly let down and left holding the bag, so to speak.  Well, I was angry at my guy too.  How could he do that to me?  What a jerk!  What a waste of my time!

Anyway, I got through the date without being mean to this guy, but when he started to pressure me about seeing each other again, going for a walk after dinner and trying to touch me, it was almost too much for me to handle.  We walked outside but my body language was telling him to keep his distance, plus I walked ahead of him like Heather walked ahead of Derek.  I felt that he was a pathetic guy who thinks that by misrepresenting himself and putting subtle pressure on me like a salesman trying to "close a deal", he might "get lucky" and get a normal height woman to be interested in him.  Meanwhile it did nothing but turn me even more off than I would have already been.  I ended up cutting the date short and telling him that I didn't think we would work out and best of luck - something I would NEVER do.  He acted pretty pathetic and almost begged me not to go, which only made it harder for me and more exasperating/embarrassing/angering, etc.  I was so angry it worked on me and when I got home I wrote him an email giving him advice not to misrepresent his height because it would only turn a woman off more, not get him a second date.  I felt sorry for him but I felt it would do him good to know that.  I never heard back from him. 

Anyway, heaven forgive me but I'm not a bitch or a manly woman for getting angry at a guy for lying about his height or not wanting to date a guy several inches shorter than me when I'm even short for a woman myself.  Just because the guy is a little person doesn't mean it's OK for him to guilt me into dating him!  I also don't think Heather should have to be called such things for not wanting to be married to a guy who is all the things she doesn't like about Derek and that he potentially lied about.  A deal breaker is a deal breaker, no sense in prolonging the inevitable.  She shouldn't be told she's being too picky or whatever for that.

Edited August 28, 2016 by Snarklepuss

[Jack Sampson]

5 minutes ago, Negritude said:

FWIW Serena Williams would be 1st choice for a lotta dudes I know lol.

Gross.  You ladies know a lot of very odd dudes. 

[Negritude]

18 minutes ago, Jack Sampson said:

Gross.  You ladies know a lot of very odd dudes. 

An ample posterior goes a long way for some...

[Passthepopcorn]

2 hours ago, Snarklepuss said:

I don't think Heather is "manly" at all.  She has a dominant, very decisive, intelligent, rational personality for sure, but that doesn't translate into "manly". 

Dominant, very decisive and rational would grab the bull by its horns and address the situation immediately instead of retreating to a sulky very bad mood. Especially if the situation is as severe and serious as a marriage breakup and if she realized without any doubt that this relationship have absolutely no future Which, I agree, she is entitled to feel. When you know, you know. 

And grabbing the bull by its horns doesn't mean to attack or diminish the other person, but explain what is happening to you and make it very clear. Even if you are confused. Say you are confused and not feeling much understanding or chemistry or fluidity between them. Say you feel they have complete different values and you are not comfortable with him. That takes a lot of courage. That is being strong and decisive to me.

What I see in her is independence, which is different. She is very independent and it seems she is not very used to being with somebody else.

Edited August 28, 2016 by Passthepopcorn

[Jack Sampson]

1 minute ago, Negritude said:

An ample posterior goes a long way for some...

Not when it's attached to someone who looks like a dude.

[biakbiak]

Dominant, very decisive and rational would grab the bull by its horns and address the situation immediately instead of retreating to a sulky very bad mood. Es

Derek was the one to ask her what was wrong she did nor grab the bull by the horns and in her discussions she was crazy passive agressive. Rational and desire also doesn't mean viewing anyone who does anything different than you as doing it wrong.