The Other Duggars: The Lost Girls and Amy

superguard9 · January 25, 2015

I hope the news that Joe is away at school doesn't mean we're subjected to more of MEchelle "tearfully" talking about another one of her babies leaving, and how hard it is for her. Bitch please. She probably has no idea which kids are around at any given time (unless they are needed or filming), nor does she care. It's not like any of them are HER responsibility.

Crown College isn't much different from the TTH regarding rules, and the Bateses are nearby to spy for Jim Bob, but I want Joseph to expose himself to as many new experiences as possible without his weirdo parents around to taint/control the situation. I too always thought he was similar to JD but maybe he's paving the way for some of the younger boys (let's not pretend any of the girls have a chance to go) to get some actual book learnin' and maybe one day develop independent critical thinking skills.

mbutterfly · January 25, 2015

I wouldn't be surprised if interracial students were international students. Many schools attract them either because they come from families wealthy enough to pay full price (desperately needed) or because they are missionary students with a relationship with the school.

GEML, do you believe there are not American people of color in this religious constellation (for lack of a better word)?

Fuzzysox · January 25, 2015

I wouldn't be surprised if interracial students were international students. Many schools attract them either because they come from families wealthy enough to pay full price (desperately needed) or because they are missionary students with a relationship with the school.

What would happen if Kirk Cameron decided to send his adopted daughter there?( she is black) Would she be welcomed or not?

riverblue22 · January 25, 2015

What would happen if Kirk Cameron decided to send his adopted daughter there?( she is black) Would she be welcomed or not?

From what I have read this is a problem for conservative families that have adopted non-Caucasian children. It's fine to adopt them, but they aren't allowed to date. I read an article about a family that adopted a girl from Haiti, and she was left out of the prom because there were no black boys to go to the dance with. I don't think we will ever see a Duggar dating a minority person. And maybe that is why the Gothard cult discourages adoption.

GEML · January 25, 2015

To be honest, it's really hard. Everyone talks a good game until it comes down to dating. I'm NOT talking about mainstream or traditional evangelical churches here (although all groups have individual bigots, even liberal ones) but these subgroups are really harsh on bi-racial or adopted children being raised within them. The sense of isolation and "what do I keep doing wrong?" can be incredibly destructive, even when their immediate family is a kind and loving one.

Fuzzysox · January 26, 2015

To be honest, it's really hard. Everyone talks a good game until it comes down to dating. I'm NOT talking about mainstream or traditional evangelical churches here (although all groups have individual bigots, even liberal ones) but these subgroups are really harsh on bi-racial or adopted children being raised within them. The sense of isolation and "what do I keep doing wrong?" can be incredibly destructive, even when their immediate family is a kind and loving one.

You just confirmed what I've always thought.

kaleidoscope · January 26, 2015

A rumor mill article about a possible Joseph and Tori Bates match. They mention Jana and Lawson too. Fun reading anyway:)

http://www.inquisitr.com/1786673/joseph-duggar-and-tori-bates-courting-joseph-moves-just-30-minutes-away-from-bates-family/

3girlsforus · January 26, 2015

A rumor mill article about a possible Joseph and Tori Bates match. They mention Jana and Lawson too. Fun reading anyway:)

http://www.inquisitr.com/1786673/joseph-duggar-and-tori-bates-courting-joseph-moves-just-30-minutes-away-from-bates-family/

Well I guess its as good a theory as any as to why Joseph suddenly is off to college without any previous indication that he wanted to go.

zenme · January 26, 2015

After watching the Bates show on Up, I feel confident that a Joseph\ Tori matchup could spell disaster. Any of the Bates kids have more spirit and personality than their Duggar counterparts!

TobyBelle · January 26, 2015

Plus if they didn't work out, would the friendship between the families go sour?

3girlsforus · January 26, 2015

Plus if they didn't work out, would the friendship between the families go sour?

That's a good question. How does it work when it "doesn't work'? Is that an option? I know it's an option for "typical" courting families but in Duggarland a failed, high-profile courtship could be bad PR.

Fuzzysox · January 26, 2015

Hmm I think Kelly Jo's matchmaking skills are pretty good and why would she want to her daughter to date errrrr I mean court a Duggar. We all know that Kelly doesn't seem too fond of them.

Barb23 · January 26, 2015

Plus if they didn't work out, would the friendship between the families go sour?

Me thinks the friendship between the families has already soured.(before this).

WTFFF · January 27, 2015

I can see why they would think a Tori/Joseph pairing is a good idea. He's a shy, introverted guy; Tori is bubbly and outgoing. The Duggars are convinced that opposite personalities + identical religious beliefs = your perfect match.

Tori is adorable. I think she can aim higher. At the very least, wait until Jed or Jer is of age, or ask Josiah out. They actually seem pretty smart.

Darknight · January 27, 2015

Wished the Duggars would send their kids to real school. Such a waste to attend clown college but it's something. At least now Joseph had to get up a certain time. It's not Duggar time.

And I'm sure if students really wanted to they will find a way to kiss and have sex. On or off campus

Micks Picks · January 27, 2015

So far I see no real evidence or even probability of a dugger/bates pairing.

floridamom · January 27, 2015

Why do you posters think the Bates/Duggar friendship has gone sour? Michelle frequently states what great, close friends she and Kelly Joe are. Either way, I do believe that a friendship between parents can be affected negatively when their children marry...it changes the dynamics of the friendship to become family.

DoctorWhovian · January 27, 2015

Why do you posters think the Bates/Duggar friendship has gone sour? Michelle frequently states what great, close friends she and Kelly Joe are. Either way, I do believe that a friendship between parents can be affected negatively when their children marry...it changes the dynamics of the friendship to become family.

The internet likes to speculate based on one offhand comment or photo or look. It reminds me of those "body language experts" that sometimes do articles in the tabloids. So and so wants to get pregnant because she's touching her stomach in this picture. And look at how he walks half a step ahead of her? He's asserting his dominance and showing her that he's in charge and ready to be in a serious relationship!

It's weird. Look at all the different theories and rumors that end up getting passed around as truth here. Someone saw something once in an episode and that means that this child is totally going to break away or hates their other sibling or whatever the story is. Best is when someone brings up something from an old episode, then when they watch it on Netflix and they can't find that moment they were talking about, it means it must have been edited out! Sure, that's possible. But it's best not to pass something off as real if you can't back it up.

Barb23 · January 27, 2015

Just a thought about the Duggar/bates. On the 2 hour episode of Jerick's wedding, the Bates weren't mentioned or referenced once. They were shown at the rehearsal dinner but quickly , just as the camera scanned the crowds at the tables. If they were such great friends, I would have thought there would have been at least a 30 second TH of Gil & Kelly saying how nice it was to share in Jill's big day.

Someone also mentioned that Boob & MEchelle could be jealous of the Bates new show. After all, the Duggars think THEY are the only family that has 19 children.

BitterApple · January 27, 2015

I always thought the Duggar/Bates friendship was more Frenemies than BFF's (God, I sound like I'm twelve). When Erin got married, Jill referred to her as one of the J'Slaves' best friends, yet none of them were in the wedding and IMO, Erin didn't seem particularly thrilled to have them hovering around while she was getting ready. Although I should add that Jana did get the privilege of shuffling back and forth to carry notes to Chad, as if that poor girl hasn't been stripped of all her dignity as it is:)

I think there is some jealousy over the Bateses new show and the fact that Gil and Kelly are coming off a thousand times better than Boob and Michelle.

Edited January 27, 2015 by BitterApple

trimthatfat · January 27, 2015

I'm pretty sure that the Bates were filming their reality show around that time. They might have been contractually obligated not appear as part of a storyline on a competing reality show outside of those quick camera scans.

Maharincess · January 27, 2015

I'm sorry, but John David gives me the creeps. He and Josh remind me of the scary guys in a bad Lifetime movie.

I agree. I keep waiting for him to talk about french fried potaters.

cereality · January 28, 2015

I don't know if the Bates/Duggar friendship has soured or if there wasn't that deep of a friendship to start with. The first time the Bates ever appeared on the Duggars' show, they said something like -- we met at a homeschool/other fundie conference and we haven't seen each other in 5-10 years. How close friends are you if you don't see each other regularly? Then it seemed like TLC wanted story lines and the Duggars probably mentioned the Bates so we got treated to trips to Tn. showing how 2 mega families interact. I'm not sure that that makes you BFFs. Of course it was the Christian thing to do for the Bates to invite the Duggars in, and they benefited too -- getting a home renovation they desperately needed and a short lived TLC show; I bet they thought of the Duggars as a "blessing" -- i.e. they needed a bigger house and some money and God sent them the Duggars and TLC. Since then I bet they've kept in touch bc the Bates know they may benefit more in the future -- and frankly the exposure on TLC obviously played a part in them getting a following, which I'm sure leads to all kinds of fan gifts and love offerings at Erin, Zach, and Alyssa's weddings, people who will buy Lawson's CDs, a show on UPTv, easier for their kids to get jobs because there's a chance people in Tn will say -- oh right, you're Erin's fiancé, we saw you on TV -- we could use another worker at our metals factory and we know you're a stand up guy moving here to marry the Bates daughter.

I'm sure through all this the families have gotten to know each other better than they did when they just saw each other at conferences. It's likely that Kelly and Gil do see the Duggars as being boorish. Their howlers are unruly, while the Bates' little kids seem well behaved. I mean JB thinks nothing of showing up with his brood of 19 on short notice or just staying extra days after he shows up; I mean having that many extra people visit is an inconvenient no matter how nice your hosts are. Just because you stopped to fellowship on your way to DC doesn't mean you have to park yourselves for an extra 2 days because your hosts are kicking you out and you're in no rush to get to DC.

I don't see Tori/Carlin with Joseph. I feel like the girls (whichever one he supposedly wants to court) won't go for it. Or Kelly may quietly tell them -- don't start a "get to know you period" unless you REALLY want to court him bc it'll look "bad" or lead to tension with a "known" family in Gothard world if after 2 weeks you decide he's a dud and it'll hurt the girls when they're looking for a real fundie courtship bc word may have gotten out that they've rejected a Duggar. I mean I think a Tori-Joseph marriage could work, but wouldn't be fun for Tori. She seems sassy and real and seems like she has friends and wants "excitement' and he seems like a dud just like JD, who'd be happy living a herp derp country life and probably sees Nashville as a BIG vacation. Meanwhile I feel like she'd want someone like Chad -- someone who wants to do stuff, saves up to take her to Ireland on a honeymoon, and generally seems to be funny/have some personality. OTOH -- she could wear the pants in the marriage bc Joseph seems so reserved and clueless that just getting sex may be enough for him to say yes to anything -- it could look like a Ben and Jessa pairing, though he's no where as hot as Ben and has the typical Duggar male look -- I can see him getting pudgy by age 25 and he already has the receding hairline.

GEML · January 28, 2015

I think the Duggars make great casual friends. You see that a lot in the Fundy world. You speak the same language and it seems like you have so much in common so you talk and talk and talk but really all anyone had said has been half jargon. People enjoy the "fellowship" but the relationships never deepen.

I'm skeptical of a Bates/Duggar match, and EXTREMELY skeptical that JB would pay to send Joseph to college for that reason. He'd simply "hire" him out to work for Gil Bates cutting trees or something. No need to cough up tuition money.

Sew Sumi · January 28, 2015

I'm pretty sure that the Bates were filming their reality show around that time. They might have been contractually obligated not appear as part of a storyline on a competing reality show outside of those quick camera scans.

The footage shot for the Bateses' show so far has all been from last fall; Whitney's shower (and Trace's crash) in late September was the earliest event. So no, their taping didn't overlap with Duggar taping for Jill's wedding, although it DID for Jessa's (and the Bateses said that some kids were "at a wedding" when they went on a roadtrip missing a few...that could have been Jessa's, where Erin pounded the ivories). Sure, the Bateses' show would have been negotiated by Jill's wedding, but since Erin was shown pounding the ivories there, I don't think a Bates ban was in place. I think that TLC just wanted to make it All About Jerick (as it should have been).

cmr2014 · January 28, 2015

JB and J'chelle are followers. As many other posters have pointed out, they haven't matured much beyond middle school and I think that with Gothard out of the picture they are lost for direction.

I don't think it just competitiveness that got JB rolling on finding suitors for his daughters. He got the idea from Gil Bates and followed his lead. And, while I'm sure that the Duggars have always been anti-abortion, it didn't really become a big part of their schtick until Ben showed up -- it's something he's really passionate about.

I'm sure that they are following someone's lead (perhaps the Bates) in sending Joseph to Crown College.

As to the friendship with the Bates -- the Duggars don't have any friends -- not in the sense that most people use that word. I think that JB and J'chelle have personality problems that prevent them from forming friendships, but the kids have just never have the opportunity. It makes me all kinds of sad to hear the J'Slaves talk about their sisters as their "best friends." They only have each other, they have no friends. It requires spending time together and really talking -- not just "fellowshipping" about favorite Bible verses -- to develop friendships, and that has just not been possible in their lives.

I realize that many homeschoolers arrange activities with other families that allow their children to develop friendships that would normally form among neighbors and school-mates, but that clearly hasn't happened with the Duggars. They have intentionally isolated their children, and a few days a year a Big Sandy is not sufficient for forming real relationships. Even when they do have the opportunity to spend time with other young people, I think that they are all very guarded, and I don't think they "fellowship" much beyond "Hi, I love Jesus, do you?" "Why, yes, I love Jesus, too!"

Itsnotreality · January 28, 2015

TLC must have some frank discussions with the Duggars to say they need more than making tater tot casserole recipes to keep this show going. The dragged out wedding last season seemed filling in gaps of either nothing else going on or nothing else going on Duggars wanted to show.

There would have to be $$ bonuses for things like births being filmed (because as discussed otherwise goes far beyond avg persons modesty standards to show that on tv!... Why would they agree if not $$$) and I wonder if there was a requirement from TLC to have a kid go to college simply as a storyline. Clown college is as far as JB would go.

Another season of weddings and babies just isn't enough.

GEML · January 28, 2015

Keep in mind that it was always Gothard policy that families deliberately isolate each other and NOT make close friendships with other people for fear wives would talk to other wives and children to other children. This meant stories such as abuse or unhappiness could be spread or magnified and encouraged and Gothard felt this would quickly lead to the husband losing control. Occasional "fellowship" was ok, but real friendship was dangerous for all involved.

The Bates live in a world and culture and until recently, attended a church where that was much more difficult. Plus, I think there wasn't much to worry about in their home. It was full blown Fundy, but not by those standards, weirdly so.

I think there are some things (mildly) "off" about the Duggars. They appear very open but I've know LOTS of families like that. It's actually a form of deflection. Forming close friendships outside of their family could be very threatening to them.

winsomeone · January 28, 2015

First Derick shows up with a hairy face. Then Ben soon followed, and then Josh. Now, I see Joseph has also joined the crowd, and I think maybe Josiah. Do they hero worship Derick, or what?

Barb23 · January 28, 2015

GEML - thanks for sharing about the Gothard policies regarding friendships. Unbelievable! That does explain a lot about the Duggars. Like when they call the families that visit great friends but can barely pronounce their names.

trimthatfat · January 28, 2015

I realize that many homeschoolers arrange activities with other families that allow their children to develop friendships that would normally form among neighbors and school-mates, but that clearly hasn't happened with the Duggars. They have intentionally isolated their children, and a few days a year a Big Sandy is not sufficient for forming real relationships. Even when they do have the opportunity to spend time with other young people, I think that they are all very guarded, and I don't think they "fellowship" much beyond "Hi, I love Jesus, do you?" "Why, yes, I love Jesus, too!"

After looking at Jessa's wedding party, I wonder how true this is. She had a lot of bridesmaids and several were not related to her. I doubt she'd invite people to join her at the altar if they weren't genuinely close to her - she just doesn't strike me as the type. Anyways, I do think the kids have friendships with others. We just don't see it.

Edited January 28, 2015 by trimthatfat

3girlsforus · January 28, 2015

Keep in mind that it was always Gothard policy that families deliberately isolate each other and NOT make close friendships with other people for fear wives would talk to other wives and children to other children. This meant stories such as abuse or unhappiness could be spread or magnified and encouraged and Gothard felt this would quickly lead to the husband losing control. Occasional "fellowship" was ok, but real friendship was dangerous for all involved.

The Bates live in a world and culture and until recently, attended a church where that was much more difficult. Plus, I think there wasn't much to worry about in their home. It was full blown Fundy, but not by those standards, weirdly so.

I think there are some things (mildly) "off" about the Duggars. They appear very open but I've know LOTS of families like that. It's actually a form of deflection. Forming close friendships outside of their family could be very threatening to them.

Isolating wives from each other is a polygamist tactic as well. The wives are expected to socialize only with themselves and the kids otherwise they might have a thought for themselves. When you raise your children to follow ridiculous cult-like rules you better be sure they don't talk to too many people about it or they might find out how dumb it really is.

GEML · January 28, 2015

Out of all of the kids, I think Jessa has gone out of her way to bend their rules as much as possible. Bizarre, isn't it, that this would include trying to form anything other than a superficial friendship with anyone outside your family?

Edited January 28, 2015 by GEML

cereality · January 28, 2015

First Derick shows up with a hairy face. Then Ben soon followed, and then Josh. Now, I see Joseph has also joined the crowd, and I think maybe Josiah. Do they hero worship Derick, or what?

Beards are in generally -- every other guy I know has a scruffy beard going on right now. Plus in that family it's all about what you're "allowed" to do. Once Derick showed up with a beard, Joseph and Josiah could follow suit without JB telling them to go shave -- I mean if your son in law has a beard, why can't I? I haven't seen any recent pics; I'm a bit surprised about Joseph though -- Crown College seems SO conservative that you'd think they'd have rules about haircuts and beards -- i.e. all men must be clean shaven.

GEML · January 28, 2015

Gothard had a clean shaven rule. So no doubt having a scruffy look or beard feels pretty rebellious.

You'd be surprised what sticks with you. I still get a delicious feel of total wickedness for going into a movie theatre. And I'm 45. While other, much more agreed upon "sins" don't even register on my conscience.

Barb23 · January 29, 2015

GEML- that's too funny about the movie theater. Hard to believe some groups see it as a "sin" when our children start going to the movies to see * horrors* Disney fairytale movies when they are 2 or even younger. But I understand.

Mrsjumbo · January 29, 2015

About friends- I was in a mom's group some time ago & there was a woman who joined. Not to be too stereotypical, but she had very long hair, no makeup, & dressed very plainly with a long skirt. She seemed kind of humorless too. She mentioned that her kids were going to play at the Duggars house. I'm not sure how superficial the friendship was- she did have that "churchy" vibe- but they did at that time invite other kids over, apparently.

DangerousMinds · January 29, 2015

Some of those Disney movies include music and/dancing though.

GEML · January 29, 2015

Disney owns other production companies that make movies that are NOT appropriate. Plus, someone could see your car in the movie lot and not realize you were seeing the Disney movie, but seeing something far more risqué. Believe me, I can do all of this stuff cold. ;)

And of course the Duggars will invite children over to play. It's part of their ministry. I'd be more interested in how often the Duggars allow their children to go to other children's homes where they can't control the environment.

Edited January 29, 2015 by GEML

3girlsforus · January 29, 2015

Well you know Disney owns ABC and ABC has tv shows with gay people shown as normal, happy people who don't need to be 'fixed' so therefore Disney is evil.

The commutative property of Duggar.

Wellfleet · January 29, 2015

Crown sounds like a ridiculous school. No interracial dating? That quite offends me and since it wants to be such a racist institution in 2015, I hope they never receive accreditation.

They never will be - if they remain as restricted as they are. No way.

Skittl1321 · February 2, 2015

That said, Crown College does have some ways to go in a variety of areas. Still, it's far better than College Plus.

I don't know- College Plus is NOT a college, but the tests it leads you to take can be accepted for credit at actual accredited institutions. (College Plus is just an expensive study guide for CLEP and AP, really). Crown College isn't accredited. It's basically a waste of time as a credential. (I don't think learning for the sake of learning could be a waste of time, but my opinion is that what they are teaching is probably a waste of time.)

So, in my mind- if I had a ton of money to throw away, I'd throw it away to College Plus. At least that curriculum has value.

Sew Sumi · February 2, 2015

I'd just go to a community college and take the same courses. Far cheaper. Of course, in that environment, one will most likely be exposed to views that do no jive with Gothardism. Heck, even Ben was allowed to attend a real community college after graduating from the DRT. Reading his social media posts last night (!), it hasn't altered his views any; if anything, it has made him even more of a zealot.

I wish the Duggars would allow their kids to test the waters in the same manner. They're so indoctrinated that I seriously doubt it would matter in the way they seem so afraid it will.

Skittl1321 · February 3, 2015

I'd just go to a community college and take the same courses.

Hence the "if I had money to throw away" comment. Taking CLEP tests is actually really cheap, and you can do it without College Plus. To really save money, the best bet is to pay attention in high school and be well read/discover the world around you. That was enough for me to pass several CLEP tests without any additional study guides.

Edited February 3, 2015 by Skittl1321

Barb23 · February 3, 2015

Sew Sumi- you are so right. Even if they took just one course on a subject they found interesting from their local community college, that's something. And who knows where it may lead.

GEML · February 3, 2015

The unaccredited issue only matters, really, if you are pursuing a field where you need to take a professional credential or a state board. Programs such as nursing, pharmacy, public school teaching, etc are worthless.

But both my husband and I are liberal arts majors and accreditation wouldn't really have mattered. (We both attended state universities, so it's not an issue) as regards our jobs. I know of an unaccredited school that has an outstanding theatre performance program that is extremely competitive, for instance. You get some odd ducks like that.

Skittl1321 · February 3, 2015

The unaccredited issue only matters, really, if you are pursuing a field where you need to take a professional credential or a state board.

It can matter more widely than that. A huge number of the people I work with were liberal arts majors; in general it was either that or education. Things like English, History, Drama, etc. (Also mathematics- but now that is "STEM" and no longer really considered liberal arts, even though it is) The jobs here all require a college degree. An unaccredited college is basically the same as no degree as far as HR is concerned. But we hold no professional credential or license.

There are many professions where skill trumps any degree though. In those cases accreditation wouldn't matter, but having no degree is also unlikely to be a barrier.

Edited February 3, 2015 by Skittl1321

GEML · February 3, 2015

I've known a lot of people in careers that could not advance without the degree, did their work at an unaccredited college and moved on. That's a slightly different scenario - but I'd keep in mind that many of these students will also be inside a Christian education world bubble, and will find work BECAUSE they went to a Christian college, unaccredited or not. Like most things in life, there's a lot of shades of gray when it comes to these things.

ChicksDigScars · February 3, 2015

So far I see no real evidence or even probability of a dugger/bates pairing.

I'd be interested as to who would get the rights to the courtship and wedding if Joseph/Tori (she's adorable and spunky) or Jana/Lawson (Jana...he's dishy, girl!) were to hook up: TLC or UP. I think we know JB well enough that this would be a priority. Stand your ground, Gil. Don't let the Boob push you around. I think TLC would have more money behind them to bargain with. This would have been a convenient hook up a couple years ago, but TLC cut the Bates' family loose. They're now contractually obligated to different networks. I'm curious as to how this would all go down. Hey...if UP gets the rights, can they NOT show Michelle? Or leave her annoying fucking baby voice and crazy eyes out of the broadcast, completely?

Sad that I'm curious about the television rights to someone's relationship, but hey. You know that's part of their normal, now. The legal hula-hoops of a potential match between the two families has me curious.

First Derick shows up with a hairy face. Then Ben soon followed, and then Josh. Now, I see Joseph has also joined the crowd, and I think maybe Josiah. Do they hero worship Derick, or what?

Aww. That's kinda cute. Reminds me of Joey and Chandler worshiping Richard when Monica was dating him. (snerk)

Not that a Duggar ever watched an episode of Friends.

Edited February 3, 2015 by ChicksDigScars

Fuzzysox · February 13, 2015

I didn't know where to put this but it is one of the funniest pieces of satire that I have ever seen. Credit to the Pickles and Hairspray FB page.

http://tlsleaze.tumblr.com/page/2

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