Jill, Derick & the Kids: Moving On!!

[GeeGolly]

I have no idea if this is true, but I read somewhere that after Josh returned from his 6 month punishment he slept at the Mold House. He was filmed as living at the TTH, but didn't sleep there.

[Zella]

Since the Duggars apparently didn't take any steps toward removing Josh from the home or putting in safeguards until after there were multiple molestation incidents, I really don't think their handling of the situation was commendable at all. I also find their claim the girls got counseling suspect. Counseling from whom--another Gothard-believing asshole who told them it was their fault?

[Zella]

Another issue I have with claims the Duggars made--i think the story they told the world about how they handled the abuse was very different than the reality. It's unclear when they received the counseling. It very well could have only occurred after the police and DHS were involved rather than something Michelle and JB actually actively sought for their girls. 

Edited December 29, 2019 by Zella

[GeeGolly]

Telling or clueless?

Anna popped into the middle of all the comments on Derick's IG to say Merry Christmas.

[Zella]

Just now, GeeGolly said:

Telling or clueless?

Anna popped into the middle of all the comments on Derick's IG to say Merry Christmas.

Bahahahahaha I think it is telling. And weirdly hilarious. 😉

[lascuba]

1 hour ago, Jeeves said:

I understand. But it's not uncommon in certain areas; I heard it spoken by people in Oklahoma, next door to Arkansas. People with college degrees and good working brains. Maybe it's somewhat of a regional thing.

I agree they minimized things in that interview. I don't doubt Jill's tears were real. I think she was probably trying hard to keep it together and play the role she'd been ordered to perform. I seriously doubt that JB wanted a crying daughter in that interview which was supposed to be all about how wonderful things were now, nothing to see here, this stuff happens in a lot of families, we have Jesus, and let's just move along. So what if her tears in the TH about the falling towel rack, a year or two later, were different? She was, I'm sure, pretty much encouraged to talk about the terror and drah-mah in that interview. Different situations. 

Considering the "crying" didn't start until she was talking about In Touch, and she was all giggles when talking about Josh, it seems that's exactly what JB would have wanted. 

32 minutes ago, Zella said:

Since the Duggars apparently didn't take any steps toward removing Josh from the home or putting in safeguards until after there were multiple molestation incidents, I really don't think their handling of the situation was commendable at all. I also find their claim the girls got counseling suspect. Counseling from whom--another Gothard-believing asshole who told them it was their fault?

Gods know I loathe JB and Michelle, but I think @GeeGolly's point is that a lot of parents--non-religious, educated people, even--do even less that they did. And it's true. Many parents do not want to believe it and won't address sexual abuse at all, allowing it to continue right under their noses. 

I've always felt that if the Duggars weren't famous at all and for whatever reason the story got out, it should have been treated as a private matter considering Josh's age at the time. It's the fact that they sought out fame at the same time that they were dealing with Josh's actions, that they claimed to be a  model family and that the world would be so much better if everyone followed their belief something, that makes them deserve scorn. 

[Zella]

13 minutes ago, lascuba said:

Considering the "crying" didn't start until she was talking about In Touch, and she was all giggles when talking about Josh, it seems that's exactly what JB would have wanted. 

Gods know I loathe JB and Michelle, but I think @GeeGolly's point is that a lot of parents--non-religious, educated people, even--do even less that they did. And it's true. Many parents do not want to believe it and won't address sexual abuse at all, allowing it to continue right under their noses. 

I've always felt that if the Duggars weren't famous at all and for whatever reason the story got out, it should have been treated as a private matter considering Josh's age at the time. It's the fact that they sought out fame at the same time that they were dealing with Josh's actions, that they claimed to be a  model family and that the world would be so much better if everyone followed their belief something, that makes them deserve scorn. 

But it seems like they did let it continue for months right under their nose, so I'm still not really sure how that is commendable. It seems what effort they did put into addressing it was delayed considerably and lied about and punished innocent children more so than anything and taught the kids skewed norms--brothers and sisters aren't allowed to be around each other because nobody can be trusted and this is no big deal because it happens in every family? I'm sorry, but I don't see how that is healthy or empowering to victims at all.

Other people doing a different shitty jobs of handling abuse doesn't mean that the Duggar way wasn't equally shitty in its own way.

Edited December 29, 2019 by Zella

[lascuba]

2 minutes ago, Zella said:

But it seems like they did let it continue for months right under their nose, so I'm still not really sure how that is commendable. It seems what effort they did put into addressing it was delayed considerably and lied about and punished innocent children more so than anything and taught the kids skewed norms--brothers and sisters aren't allowed to be around each other because nobody can be trusted and this is no big deal because it happens in every family? I'm sorry, but I don't see how that is healthy or empowering to victims at all.

Oh, I'm not saying it was commendable, but it sounds like they actually believed that it was happening and did things that fit their (stupid, dangerous) religious views to "fix" it. I agree that what they actually did--likely beating the fuck out of Josh, brothers and sisters can't be close, even more stringent rules for how the girls act and dress--weren't the right way to go, but the fact that they tried to do something, because they actually believed that Josh was molesting girls, is pretty significant considering just how many parents out there will dismiss the idea that one child is abusing others out of hand. That's not as common as we'd like to think. 

[Steff]

Their religious beliefs tell the girls that it was THEIR fault that they were molested by Josh.  Forgive me if I'm not willing to cut Josh, Jimbob or Michelle any slack at all in how they handled it.  Not only were the girls forced to forgive Josh in public multiple times, they were forced to be around him all while being blamed for what happened to them.  ALL the kids paid the price for what Josh did in how the rules were changed to deny the rest of the kids a normal childhood with normal interactions between each other. 

It was NOT handled in a healthy way.  The girls were never given body autonomy or even the right to be angry about what he did to them & took from them.  All so Jimbob & Michelle could keep looking like the perfect "biblical" family.  Bullshit.  He digitally penetrated a FIVE YEAR OLD.  He cornered Jinger in the laundry room & assaulted her sexually.  He's allowed to roam the TTH freely while Jill isn't allowed over and she's the fucking victim!

[Zella]

22 minutes ago, lascuba said:

Oh, I'm not saying it was commendable, but it sounds like they actually believed that it was happening and did things that fit their (stupid, dangerous) religious views to "fix" it. I agree that what they actually did--likely beating the fuck out of Josh, brothers and sisters can't be close, even more stringent rules for how the girls act and dress--weren't the right way to go, but the fact that they tried to do something, because they actually believed that Josh was molesting girls, is pretty significant considering just how many parents out there will dismiss the idea that one child is abusing others out of hand. That's not as common as we'd like to think. 

As I mentioned on here earlier, I'm well aware from personal experience that not every victim is believed. I guess my problem is the Duggars lied about this pervasively on national television, so I find their claims they did much of anything suspect on its own. If they had just admitted, "This was horrible and we didn't know what to do and in retrospect we could have done things differently," I'd actually be sympathetic to them. I'm sure it was awful to be a parent in that situation. But the fact they have told their daughters this happens in every family and it was no big deal--I really don't think that is any better than not believing them. And again I'm not sure they did believe them to begin with since there were multiple incidents before they took action. I just feel like it is inaccurate to state they believed the girls and took action without also noting they took their sweet time in doing so.

4 minutes ago, Steff said:

Their religious beliefs tell the girls that it was THEIR fault that they were molested by Josh.  Forgive me if I'm not willing to cut Josh, Jimbob or Michelle any slack at all in how they handled it.  Not only were the girls forced to forgive Josh in public multiple times, they were forced to be around him all while being blamed for what happened to them.  ALL the kids paid the price for what Josh did in how the rules were changed to deny the rest of the kids a normal childhood with normal interactions between each other. 

It was NOT handled in a healthy way.  The girls were never given body autonomy or even the right to be angry about what he did to them & took from them.  All so Jimbob & Michelle could keep looking like the perfect "biblical" family.  Bullshit.  He digitally penetrated a FIVE YEAR OLD.  He cornered Jinger in the laundry room & assaulted her sexually.  He's allowed to roam the TTH freely while Jill isn't allowed over and she's the fucking victim!

This--all of this!

It made me so sad in the interview when Jill said she was going to use the same measures with Izzy, who was 2 months old. She basically already assumed he was a danger to any future siblings. 😞

 

[Heathen]

12 minutes ago, Zella said:

It made me so sad in the interview when Jill said she was going to use the same measures with Izzy, who was 2 months old. She basically already assumed he was a danger to any future siblings. 😞

 

That's called hypervigilance.  As I'm sure you know, it's common in abuse victims. 

[galaxygirl76]

The way I remember it is that the molestation came out from an Oprah employee and nothing had happened to stop Josh before that. 

[Zella]

4 minutes ago, Heathen said:

That's called hypervigilance.  As I'm sure you know, it's common in abuse victims. 

Yes, and I think her parents' actions made that seem like a reasonable position to take to her. As I mentioned earlier on here, I really do wonder if some of her apparent resentment toward Izzy is her projecting onto him since he is the oldest boy. 😞 

It just bothers me more than anything that the fallout from this is still negatively affecting this family, and Jim Bob and Michelle are patting their asshole selves on the back for the way they handled it. 

Edited December 29, 2019 by Zella

[Barb23]

1 hour ago, Zella said:

Another issue I have with claims the Duggars made--i think the story they told the world about how they handled the abuse was very different than the reality. It's unclear when they received the counseling. It very well could have only occurred after the police and DHS were involved rather than something Michelle and JB actually actively sought for their girls. 

I would like a time line of things too including their therapy and when the spouses of the molested girls found out.  

 I rewatched the JB & M interview as well as Jill & Jessa's.  Mechelle emphasized Josh paid for therapy when they were discussing that Josh and the girls had received therapy.   I guess she felt that if the world knew Josh paid for his own therapy, it meant he was more serious about it. This was during the family's poor period & think JB & Mechelle "encouraged" Josh to pay for his therapy because they didn't have the money to pay for all of them.*

* This is just my assumption.  For all I know,   they could have gotten free therapy. 

 

For as much as I don't like some of Derick's actions & beliefs, he has some control.   If my husband had been in Derick's place (or any of the girl's husbands)& found out about the molestations,  either Josh would be missing his manly parts or he would be six feet under.   I don't know how Austin in particular can be anywhere near Josh.  All of the molestations were horrible but Joy was FIVE. 

How  were the couples able to allow Josh at their weddings, one of the happiest days in their lives, is beyond me. (Well I really do know how.) 

 

 

[trimthatfat]

I'm just now catching up on Derrick's SM comments. Good on him for publicly acknowledging his wife as an abuse victim. The entire family has tiptoed around the reality that Jill and her sisters were violated. And their abuser protected by their parents. Jill has hinted towards the importance of professional therapists the last few months so I wonder if the enlightenment about being the victim has come from work with a therapist.

It's an absolute shame that Jill had to ask permission to accompany Jessa to the main house when she was in labor. And if JB had said no, would Jessa be left to labor alone with her husband? I truly believe women should be allowed to have whoever they want by their side when they are in labor. If she wanted Jill, she should have her present, no questions asked. I believe parents should be able to control who can come into the home if they have concerns about their children's safety, but when it extends to a sibling (Jill) because they don't fit into a perfect box, it's ridiculous. I also thought it was ridiculous that Amy was basically banned from the house. 

I definitely think Jill has changed and it bothers her parents. I noticed on IG that Jill tagged one of her best friends in a recent post, and the best friend mentions that she loves wine in her bio. Jill's world has expanded and I'm sure she's questioned the way she was raised. She's probably realizing that you can be a Christian and still have a piercing. Or a tattoo. Or enjoy wine with dinner. Or wear jeans. Obviously, the Duggars don't want to be questioned.  Jill has been filming for most of her life. I think having to relive her abuse broke her and Derrick, as her spouse, has had to help her pick up the pieces. There was a definite shift after Jill had their first baby and it was pretty much cemented after the second baby. I really do feel for her because she's been dealt a shitty hand. She gets banned, but her abuser not only can visit the home, but he is still in dad's good graces. Does Josh have to call before coming over? I doubt it. 

[Zella]

32 minutes ago, Barb23 said:

I would like a time line of things too including their therapy and when the spouses of the molested girls found out.  

 I rewatched the JB & M interview as well as Jill & Jessa's.  Mechelle emphasized Josh paid for therapy when they were discussing that Josh and the girls had received therapy.   I guess she felt that if the world knew Josh paid for his own therapy, it meant he was more serious about it. This was during the family's poor period & think JB & Mechelle "encouraged" Josh to pay for his therapy because they didn't have the money to pay for all of them.*

* This is just my assumption.  For all I know,   they could have gotten free therapy. 

 

For as much as I don't like some of Derick's actions & beliefs, he has some control.   If my husband had been in Derick's place (or any of the girl's husbands)& found out about the molestations,  either Josh would be missing his manly parts or he would be six feet under.   I don't know how Austin in particular can be anywhere near Josh.  All of the molestations were horrible but Joy was FIVE. 

How  were the couples able to allow Josh at their weddings, one of the happiest days in their lives, is beyond me. (Well I really do know how.) 

 

 

I'm just revisiting the police report now, and in Jim Bob's interview, he mentions nothing about therapy for the girls. They just talk about Josh's stint in Little Rock after multiple instances of molestation. I think if they'd received therapy from a mandated reporter at that time, it would have been reported, so either the therapy happened much later, it was done within the church, or it didn't happen. 

One of the things that really bothers me about this too--if the Duggars were a "normal" family and the girls had been allowed to feel whatever they wanted to feel and they decided to forgive Josh and have him in their lives, that's their business. But I really don't think, knowing what I know about the Duggars' beliefs, that that was ever an option for them.

Edited to add: That's another reason I question--even if they were believed, if the family sentiment is that you have to still keep sweet and forgive him, regardless of how you actually feel--how is that any better than not being believed? In a way, it almost seems worse to me to be believed but then to be treated as if it was no big deal and a common occurrence and that you have to make nice with him at family get-togethers and you have no real say whatsoever in how you feel or how you respond to the abuser.

Edited December 29, 2019 by Zella

[Madtown]

1 hour ago, GeeGolly said:

Telling or clueless?

Anna popped into the middle of all the comments on Derick's IG to say Merry Christmas.

Wow. Telling or clueless, for her to read his post about what HER husband did to his sisters and others, with "Merry Christmas" is just like it never happened in her world. 

I still don't know how she can still be married and producing with this piece of shit. I mean, I know she has drank so much Kool-Aid, but still. How anyone in her family has him around is beyond me. Was the brother who begged her to leave Josh in the family picture that was posted of them in Florida?

Despite Derick's beliefs and what an asshole he is most of the time, IF he is going to law school to go after JB for whatever reasons, I'm all for it.

3 minutes ago, Barb23 said:

I don't know how Austin in particular can be anywhere near Josh.  All of the molestations were horrible but Joy was FIVE. 

Exactly! I wonder what Ben thinks of the situation as well. All of these husband's should be furious at the situation and not want Josh anywhere near their families.
 

[galaxychaser]

I will bet $5 that no therapy happened for the victims. None.

[BitterApple]

30 minutes ago, trimthatfat said:

. Jill has hinted towards the importance of professional therapists the last few months so I wonder if the enlightenment about being the victim has come from work with a therapist.

I really hope she is working with a therapist, or does in the near future. When you consider the entirety of Jill's life: the warped religious upbringing, sexual abuse, exploitation on tv, exploitation as an unpaid nanny/maid, Joshley scandals, traumatic births and estrangement from her family; it's going to take a loooooong time to undo that damage. She appears to be taking steps in the right direction, but I don't think she can fully heal without professional help.

 

Edited December 29, 2019 by BitterApple

[trimthatfat]

20 minutes ago, Barb23 said:

How  were the couples able to allow Josh at their weddings, one of the happiest days in their lives, is beyond me. (Well I really do know how.) 

I don't get it either. And IIRC, Jessa, Jill, and Joy were in Josh and Anna's wedding as well. Like what a mindfuck. 

[Heathen]

15 minutes ago, trimthatfat said:

I don't get it either. And IIRC, Jessa, Jill, and Joy were in Josh and Anna's wedding as well. Like what a mindfuck. 

I'm sure they were instructed to do so, overtly or covertly. 

[trimthatfat]

6 minutes ago, Heathen said:

I'm sure they were instructed to do so, overtly or covertly. 

I'm sure of that as well. That's why I think it's such a mindfuck. Being forced to be around your abuser is traumatic and no one cared about the long-term effects on the victims. 

[LynneH]

The only reason I ever watched the show was to watch as one of the children escape from the family.  Unfortunately not only did that NOT happen, but they all seem to prefer to be with their family (even their predator brother). The adults all have access to the internet and can educate themselves,  but choose not to.  If Ben can get an online education so can any of the others (male or female). Jinger, although she lives farthest away, still manages to visit as often as she wants.  All of the others (except currently shunned Jill) come and go as often as they like. 

If any of them truly wanted to change their environment, they could, they just choose not to. 

 

 

 

[lascuba]

1 hour ago, galaxygirl76 said:

The way I remember it is that the molestation came out from an Oprah employee and nothing had happened to stop Josh before that. 

No, Oprah's people didn't hear of it until years later, and they contacted police and that's when the Duggars were investigated and when the girls would have gotten court mandated therapy.

[emma675]

I've always wondered which of the husbands would be the first to go after Josh (although I was thinking it would be physically attacking him). I never expected Dreck would be the one. I figured it would be Austin or Ben, they both seem like the anger would build up over time until one of them snapped and decked Josh. Jeremy doesn't seem like someone who would be good in a fight, but I can see him joining in after someone else started things. Dreck can't even run without gagging, he would never start anything physical, but he seems to enjoy throwing out barbs online. I am still just floored any of the husbands can stand to be around Josh period.

[Zella]

9 minutes ago, emma675 said:

I've always wondered which of the husbands would be the first to go after Josh (although I was thinking it would be physically attacking him). I never expected Dreck would be the one. I figured it would be Austin or Ben, they both seem like the anger would build up over time until one of them snapped and decked Josh. Jeremy doesn't seem like someone who would be good in a fight, but I can see him joining in after someone else started things. Dreck can't even run without gagging, he would never start anything physical, but he seems to enjoy throwing out barbs online. I am still just floored any of the husbands can stand to be around Josh period.

I really don't think any of them would actually beat the shit out of Josh. I know a lot of "good ol' boys" from Arkansas who would beat the living fuck out of their brother-in-law (or worse) if they found out he'd molested their wife as a child, but I just don't get that vibe from any of these guys. Not saying that as a judgment of them--I would actually be surprised if any of them has ever been in a fist fight. 

Edited December 29, 2019 by Zella

[Mojitogirl]

25 minutes ago, LynneH said:

The only reason I ever watched the show was to watch as one of the children escape from the family.  Unfortunately not only did that NOT happen, but they all seem to prefer to be with their family (even their predator brother). The adults all have access to the internet and can educate themselves,  but choose not to.  If Ben can get an online education so can any of the others (male or female). Jinger, although she lives farthest away, still manages to visit as often as she wants.  All of the others (except currently shunned Jill) come and go as often as they like. 

If any of them truly wanted to change their environment, they could, they just choose not to. 

 

 

 

Jill is doing it. She’s the closest to Breaking Duggar. Not dramatic, no overt statements, just baby steps, and little clues. Despite that, she still faces criticism from all sides - both for doing it at all, or for doing it the (perceived) wrong way. 

[emma675]

30 minutes ago, Zella said:

I really don't think any of them would actually beat the shit out of Josh. I know a lot of "good ol' boys" from Arkansas who would beat the living fuck out of their brother-in-law (or worse) if they found out he'd molested their wife as a child, but I just don't get that vibe from any of these guys. Not saying that as a judgment of them--I would actually be surprised if any of them has ever been in a fist fight. 

Oh, don't get me wrong, it would be a fight with a lot of flailing and slapping, but I've always felt like Austin or Ben might throw a punch if they got mad enough. And Austin especially seems like he has a bit of a temper and is very protective of his family. I've never been in a fight myself but the sight of Josh in person might drive me to violence. Sick bastard. 

Edited December 29, 2019 by emma675d

[Churchhoney]

Lest we forget the stuff their damn cult -- to which JB and M are still devoted and which, along with TLC, has paid a lot of their bills over the years....and paid them all sorts of homage based on JB's inability to keep it in his pants or countenance birth control -- preaches about abuse, including the kind that happened to the Duggar girls, we should look at this crap occasionally, I think: 

https://www.recoveringgrace.org/2014/04/there-is-no-victim-a-survey-of-iblp-literature-on-sexual-assault-and-abuse/

Here's some of what I have absolutely no doubt the mean, wormy idiot Duggar parents "believed" when Josh pulled his stunts....and today. Of course, it's so nutso, it's really just meant to make already insecure people more insecure so they'll cling even more tightly to -- and pay dollars and teenage daughters to -- the crappy cult, I expect. Much like the so-called teachings of Scientology, for example. Imagine how hearing this junk from your Wisdom Books and so on would probably just make you want to retreat into your shell like a snail or a turtle and never mention a troubling incident ever again. Especially in a house where they'd used blanket training and spoke to you through megaphones : 

 The same How To Get Under God’s Protection booklet gives a succinct introduction to the “umbrella of protection,” arguably the Institute’s most widely disseminated and enduring meme. Central to the concept is the fact that under the umbrella, “nothing can happen to us that God did not design for his glory and our ultimate good,” while out from under the umbrella, “we expose ourselves to the realm and power of Satan’s control.” So, is a child or young person to interpret sexual abuse from an authority figure as designed by God for glory, or the result of having strayed into the realm of Satan’s control?

Or is it the result of one of those infamous holes in the umbrella described in How to Make an Appeal, a hole for which a minor under authority has been issued a limited repair kit?...

In the 1990s, the document “Lessons From Moral Failure in a Family” advised ATI parents on preventing and dealing with an older sibling’s sexual abuse of younger children. Recovering Grace has previously published an examination of this piece, but it is worth revisiting the document’s introduction. Of the four listed consequences of sexual abuse, three concentrate on damage to public image. The abuse is presented as tragic, but public exposure of the abuse and the resulting damage to appearances are presented as at least as tragic. In this list of questions, “immodesty” in the home was presented to the young man as a leading question. It’s assumed to be a motivating factor for his sexual abuse of his siblings, and he was asked how not only he, but also his extremely young victims, could have been trained to “resist evil.” The document later endorses the offender’s critique of his young siblings failings in “modesty,” and concludes with a list of steps for parents to take to prevent sexual abuse among siblings. This document does feature an endorsement of police involvement not necessarily preceded by multiple appeals and confrontations, but this appears to be because a sibling does not occupy the same place in the authority structure that a husband and father does. The complete document is available here: Lessons_From_Moral_Failures_in_a_Family      https://www.recoveringgrace.org/media/Lessons_From_Moral_Failures_in_a_Family1.pdf

A young sexual abuse victim, or a survivor of childhood abuse, attempting to synthesize and apply all of the teachings to personal experiences now must add the considerations of “ridicule to the cause of Christ,” “the shame of detailed publicity” for the family, and childhood “modesty,” to the umbrella of authority and the suffer/flee/appeal/submit quandary. Is it surprising that many minors in ATI families who were sexually abused chose not to report to anyone outside the family, for fear of implicating or humiliating themselves and other non-abusing family members, or of stepping out from the umbrella by not working upward through the levels of authority? Even if the abuser was not a family member, might not a revelation of sexual abuse call into question the godliness and discernment of the parents? Would others think there was a hole in the umbrella? Would it be better not to report the abuse to law enforcement?...

The “Counseling Sexual Abuse” handout joined the Counseling Seminar curriculum starting in the early ’90s, and has been covered at length by Recovering Grace. It applies the trichotomistic anthropology of the Basic Seminar to sexual abuse, and uses Daniel as the biblical example of a blameless abuse survivor. While it is legitimate to describe Daniel this way, and encouraging to see Institute materials acknowledging male abuse survivors, it is also striking how different Daniel’s described experience was from that of the abuse survivors most likely to read or be counseled according to this document. Daniel was a prisoner of war, severely sexually mutilated by his foreign captors. Everyone around Daniel knew what had happened to him, knew why it had happened, knew that he had done nothing foolish or rebellious to deserve the act of violence, and knew that he had certainly not enjoyed it. Not only was he not considered “dirty” after being made a eunuch, he was seen as permanently sexually pure, to use modern terms.

Contrast this to the rapes of Dinah and Tamar as recounted in the first two volumes of Character Sketches. The Institute version of Dinah’s story begins with what can be generously described as midrash, conventionally described as conjecture, and colloquially described as making things up. She is characterized as resentful and distrustful of her father, unwisely not seeking his counsel before rashly striking off into the unknown, alone, in “uncontrolled initiative.”

Character Sketches tells us that Dinah should not have ventured into this pagan city to make friends, but has some negative things to say about her father’s actions as well.

Apparently there were holes in her father’s umbrella, and God allowed Dinah to be attacked for a greater purpose. So ultimately, Dinah’s attack was God’s will and furthered God’s plan, right? Wrong. Or at least not right enough to absolve Dinah of responsibility for being raped.

If according to Character Sketches Dinah’s foolish mistake was to forgo seeking her father’s counsel and instead go into a pagan town alone, unescorted by her brothers, then Tamar’s foolish mistake was to follow her father’s request to go to the home of a family member, specifically that of her supposedly-ill half brother. It’s difficult for a rape survivor to choose admirably in Character Sketches. It seems she will always do something blameworthy.

Tamar, we are told, did not adequately sense danger when she received and followed her father’s instructions to go bake for a sick family member in his home, did not adequately sense danger when the family member wanted to sit with her as she baked, did not adequately sense danger when the illness-feigning man indicated that he’d like to take his food back to bed, and did not adequately sense danger when someone she believed to be weakened (and about to rest in bed with a meal) indicated that he didn’t need servants around at that moment. But no one blames Tamar, right? She did everything right that Dinah did wrong, and even the relentlessly fault-finding narrator of Character Sketches acknowledges that “she could hardly have imagined the danger.” But, we’re told, she didn’t cry out.

Tamar is credited for being perfectly modest, perfectly decorous, perfectly obedient to authority, and perfectly resistant to sexual advances. Character Sketches presents quite a list of things she could potentially have done to invite sexual assault, but avoided. She tried an appeal in the wrong situation, though; she wasn’t supposed to “suffer,” “appeal,” or “submit,” but to “flee,” and also cry out. If a sexual assault target doesn’t cry out to God in a narrative like this, perhaps God won’t be as inclined to intervene. Tamar should have know this was important, but lacked the presence of mind to tick all the boxes.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 29, 2019 by Churchhoney

[Zella]

3 minutes ago, emma675 said:

Oh, don't get me wrong, it would be a fight with a lot of flailing and slapping, but I've always felt like Austin or Ben might throw a punch if they got mad enough. And Austin especially seems like he has a bit of a temper and is very protective of his family. I've never been in a fight myself but the sight of Josh in person might drive me to violence. Sick bastard. 

LOL you're probably right on the flailing.

I think in that situation Austin might be the most likely to throw a punch. Ben strikes me as really easy-going and quite passive. I could be wrong, though! 

[Steff]

28 minutes ago, Mojitogirl said:

Jill is doing it. She’s the closest to Breaking Duggar. Not dramatic, no overt statements, just baby steps, and little clues. Despite that, she still faces criticism from all sides - both for doing it at all, or for doing it the (perceived) wrong way. 

Over the last couple of weeks, I'm having a slight change in how I see Jill.  Don't get me wrong, I still want to shake some sense into her over the simple things (cooking, cleaning, child safety).  I still think Derek is a 120 lb talking asshole with vile beliefs.  But after reading the AMA on reddit, reading between the lines on things Derek has done, & then reading what he's flat out saying outloud (finally!), I'm starting to cut Jilly Muffin some slack.  If Derek wants to be the toddler that stomps thru their tinkertoy house & destroys it, then more power to him!  I'll even go as far as actually buying any book he writes so they get the cash from it. 

Breaking Duggar is going to be the hardest thing Jill has ever done, but I think there's a light at the end of her tunnel now.  And for once, it's not a Jimbob train.  She takes 1 step forward & 5 steps back, but her forward steps are getting a little bigger.  We know she was reading "toxic relationship" books.  She's has made at least 1 friend who I can only hope isn't just after her Influencer numbers.  She's doing the mom/housewife thing totally alone, which none of the other child bride/breeder is doing.  They all have little helpers.  Again, I still want to shake some sense into her because she's soooooooooooooooo bad at the mom/housewife thing, but she is doing it all on her own & that's hard for a normal, well adjusted, emotionally secure/mature person.  She's emotionally stunted, just starting to realize she was a victim of abuse by more people than just her brother, she's lost her entire foundation that she was raised to believe was perfect.  I doubt she ever loses her religion completely, she'll become "fundie lite" but it's going to take a decade at least before she's to a place that looks "normal".   I'm hoping so much that Derek puts the boys in school to not only help her but to make sure none of Jimbob's stupid systems/rules/guidelines make it to his kids. 

Sadly to break the cycle, it's going to have to break Jill down in the process.  I think we're seeing that now. 

[Zella]

22 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

Lest we forget the stuff their damn cult -- to which JB and M are still devoted and which, along with TLC, has paid a lot of their bills over the years....and paid them all sorts of homage based on JB's inability to keep it in his pants or countenance birth control -- preaches about abuse, including the kind that happened to the Duggar girls, we should look at this crap occasionally, I think: 

https://www.recoveringgrace.org/2014/04/there-is-no-victim-a-survey-of-iblp-literature-on-sexual-assault-and-abuse/

Here's some of what I have absolutely no doubt the mean, wormy idiot Duggar parents "believed" when Josh pulled his stunts....and today. Of course, it's so nutso, it's really just meant to make already insecure people more insecure so they'll cling even more tightly to -- and pay dollars and teenage daughters to -- the crappy cult, I expect. Much like the so-called teachings of Scientology, for example. Imagine how hearing this junk from your Wisdom Books and so on would probably just make you want to crawl into your shell like a turtle and never mention a troubling incident ever again. Especially in a house where they'd used blanket training and spoke to you through megaphones : 

 The same How To Get Under God’s Protection booklet gives a succinct introduction to the “umbrella of protection,” arguably the Institute’s most widely disseminated and enduring meme. Central to the concept is the fact that under the umbrella, “nothing can happen to us that God did not design for his glory and our ultimate good,” while out from under the umbrella, “we expose ourselves to the realm and power of Satan’s control.” So, is a child or young person to interpret sexual abuse from an authority figure as designed by God for glory, or the result of having strayed into the realm of Satan’s control?

Or is it the result of one of those infamous holes in the umbrella described in How to Make an Appeal, a hole for which a minor under authority has been issued a limited repair kit?...

In the 1990s, the document “Lessons From Moral Failure in a Family” advised ATI parents on preventing and dealing with an older sibling’s sexual abuse of younger children. Recovering Grace has previously published an examination of this piece, but it is worth revisiting the document’s introduction. Of the four listed consequences of sexual abuse, three concentrate on damage to public image. The abuse is presented as tragic, but public exposure of the abuse and the resulting damage to appearances are presented as at least as tragic. In this list of questions, “immodesty” in the home was presented to the young man as a leading question. It’s assumed to be a motivating factor for his sexual abuse of his siblings, and he was asked how not only he, but also his extremely young victims, could have been trained to “resist evil.” The document later endorses the offender’s critique of his young siblings failings in “modesty,” and concludes with a list of steps for parents to take to prevent sexual abuse among siblings. This document does feature an endorsement of police involvement not necessarily preceded by multiple appeals and confrontations, but this appears to be because a sibling does not occupy the same place in the authority structure that a husband and father does. The complete document is available here: Lessons_From_Moral_Failures_in_a_Family      https://www.recoveringgrace.org/media/Lessons_From_Moral_Failures_in_a_Family1.pdf

A young sexual abuse victim, or a survivor of childhood abuse, attempting to synthesize and apply all of the teachings to personal experiences now must add the considerations of “ridicule to the cause of Christ,” “the shame of detailed publicity” for the family, and childhood “modesty,” to the umbrella of authority and the suffer/flee/appeal/submit quandary. Is it surprising that many minors in ATI families who were sexually abused chose not to report to anyone outside the family, for fear of implicating or humiliating themselves and other non-abusing family members, or of stepping out from the umbrella by not working upward through the levels of authority? Even if the abuser was not a family member, might not a revelation of sexual abuse call into question the godliness and discernment of the parents? Would others think there was a hole in the umbrella? Would it be better not to report the abuse to law enforcement?...

The “Counseling Sexual Abuse” handout joined the Counseling Seminar curriculum starting in the early ’90s, and has been covered at length by Recovering Grace. It applies the trichotomistic anthropology of the Basic Seminar to sexual abuse, and uses Daniel as the biblical example of a blameless abuse survivor. While it is legitimate to describe Daniel this way, and encouraging to see Institute materials acknowledging male abuse survivors, it is also striking how different Daniel’s described experience was from that of the abuse survivors most likely to read or be counseled according to this document. Daniel was a prisoner of war, severely sexually mutilated by his foreign captors. Everyone around Daniel knew what had happened to him, knew why it had happened, knew that he had done nothing foolish or rebellious to deserve the act of violence, and knew that he had certainly not enjoyed it. Not only was he not considered “dirty” after being made a eunuch, he was seen as permanently sexually pure, to use modern terms.

Contrast this to the rapes of Dinah and Tamar as recounted in the first two volumes of Character Sketches. The Institute version of Dinah’s story begins with what can be generously described as midrash, conventionally described as conjecture, and colloquially described as making things up. She is characterized as resentful and distrustful of her father, unwisely not seeking his counsel before rashly striking off into the unknown, alone, in “uncontrolled initiative.”

Character Sketches tells us that Dinah should not have ventured into this pagan city to make friends, but has some negative things to say about her father’s actions as well.

Apparently there were holes in her father’s umbrella, and God allowed Dinah to be attacked for a greater purpose. So ultimately, Dinah’s attack was God’s will and furthered God’s plan, right? Wrong. Or at least not right enough to absolve Dinah of responsibility for being raped.

If according to Character Sketches Dinah’s foolish mistake was to forgo seeking her father’s counsel and instead go into a pagan town alone, unescorted by her brothers, then Tamar’s foolish mistake was to follow her father’s request to go to the home of a family member, specifically that of her supposedly-ill half brother. It’s difficult for a rape survivor to choose admirably in Character Sketches. It seems she will always do something blameworthy.

Tamar, we are told, did not adequately sense danger when she received and followed her father’s instructions to go bake for a sick family member in his home, did not adequately sense danger when the family member wanted to sit with her as she baked, did not adequately sense danger when the illness-feigning man indicated that he’d like to take his food back to bed, and did not adequately sense danger when someone she believed to be weakened (and about to rest in bed with a meal) indicated that he didn’t need servants around at that moment. But no one blames Tamar, right? She did everything right that Dinah did wrong, and even the relentlessly fault-finding narrator of Character Sketches acknowledges that “she could hardly have imagined the danger.” But, we’re told, she didn’t cry out.

Tamar is credited for being perfectly modest, perfectly decorous, perfectly obedient to authority, and perfectly resistant to sexual advances. Character Sketches presents quite a list of things she could potentially have done to invite sexual assault, but avoided. She tried an appeal in the wrong situation, though; she wasn’t supposed to “suffer,” “appeal,” or “submit,” but to “flee,” and also cry out. If a sexual assault target doesn’t cry out to God in a narrative like this, perhaps God won’t be as inclined to intervene. Tamar should have know this was important, but lacked the presence of mind to tick all the boxes.

 

 

 

Thank you for posting that--I saw some of it when the scandals first broke, but some of it is new to me. That is absolutely appalling. 

I have a sinking feeling *this* is the "counseling" those poor girls received, which again makes me wonder if being believed on abuse within this structure is really any better than not being believed. 😞 

Edited December 29, 2019 by Zella

[GeeGolly]

7 minutes ago, Steff said:

Over the last couple of weeks, I'm having a slight change in how I see Jill.  Don't get me wrong, I still want to shake some sense into her over the simple things (cooking, cleaning, child safety).  I still think Derek is a 120 lb talking asshole with vile beliefs.  But after reading the AMA on reddit, reading between the lines on things Derek has done, & then reading what he's flat out saying outloud (finally!), I'm starting to cut Jilly Muffin some slack.  If Derek wants to be the toddler that stomps thru their tinkertoy house & destroys it, then more power to him!  I'll even go as far as actually buying any book he writes so they get the cash from it. 

Breaking Duggar is going to be the hardest thing Jill has ever done, but I think there's a light at the end of her tunnel now.  And for once, it's not a Jimbob train.  She takes 1 step forward & 5 steps back, but her forward steps are getting a little bigger.  We know she was reading "toxic relationship" books.  She's has made at least 1 friend who I can only hope isn't just after her Influencer numbers.  She's doing the mom/housewife thing totally alone, which none of the other child bride/breeder is doing.  They all have little helpers.  Again, I still want to shake some sense into her because she's soooooooooooooooo bad at the mom/housewife thing, but she is doing it all on her own & that's hard for a normal, well adjusted, emotionally secure/mature person.  She's emotionally stunted, just starting to realize she was a victim of abuse by more people than just her brother, she's lost her entire foundation that she was raised to believe was perfect.  I doubt she ever loses her religion completely, she'll become "fundie lite" but it's going to take a decade at least before she's to a place that looks "normal".   I'm hoping so much that Derek puts the boys in school to not only help her but to make sure none of Jimbob's stupid systems/rules/guidelines make it to his kids. 

Sadly to break the cycle, it's going to have to break Jill down in the process.  I think we're seeing that now. 

I hope you're right and we aren't all hoping against hope that Jill is slowly moving away from her former life.

If she is actually doing this, I hope it is her choice.

If she succeeds we can support her in ditching Derick at a later time.

[Dimi1]

40 minutes ago, Steff said:

Over the last couple of weeks, I'm having a slight change in how I see Jill.  Don't get me wrong, I still want to shake some sense into her over the simple things (cooking, cleaning, child safety).  I still think Derek is a 120 lb talking asshole with vile beliefs.  But after reading the AMA on reddit, reading between the lines on things Derek has done, & then reading what he's flat out saying outloud (finally!), I'm starting to cut Jilly Muffin some slack.  If Derek wants to be the toddler that stomps thru their tinkertoy house & destroys it, then more power to him!  I'll even go as far as actually buying any book he writes so they get the cash from it. 

Breaking Duggar is going to be the hardest thing Jill has ever done, but I think there's a light at the end of her tunnel now.  And for once, it's not a Jimbob train.  She takes 1 step forward & 5 steps back, but her forward steps are getting a little bigger.  We know she was reading "toxic relationship" books.  She's has made at least 1 friend who I can only hope isn't just after her Influencer numbers.  She's doing the mom/housewife thing totally alone, which none of the other child bride/breeder is doing.  They all have little helpers.  Again, I still want to shake some sense into her because she's soooooooooooooooo bad at the mom/housewife thing, but she is doing it all on her own & that's hard for a normal, well adjusted, emotionally secure/mature person.  She's emotionally stunted, just starting to realize she was a victim of abuse by more people than just her brother, she's lost her entire foundation that she was raised to believe was perfect.  I doubt she ever loses her religion completely, she'll become "fundie lite" but it's going to take a decade at least before she's to a place that looks "normal".   I'm hoping so much that Derek puts the boys in school to not only help her but to make sure none of Jimbob's stupid systems/rules/guidelines make it to his kids. 

Sadly to break the cycle, it's going to have to break Jill down in the process.  I think we're seeing that now. 

what is the AMA post on reddit??

[MargeGunderson]

I’m cynical, so all of this tea dribbling by Derick just seems like another man in Jill’s life trying to profit off of her. I have no doubt that if Derick felt that he was fairly compensated by TLC or Boob he would be happily playing along. This is about the money. I would be interested in what Jill has to say if she wants to say it herself. 

[JoanArc]

QuoteThe only thing that truly matters is what Jill, Jessa, Jinger and Joy think.

 And with victim five thinks. IDGAF What the Duggar girls can agree to if she is still left out in the cold.

[Westiepeach]

1 hour ago, emma675 said:

I've always wondered which of the husbands would be the first to go after Josh (although I was thinking it would be physically attacking him). I never expected Dreck would be the one. I figured it would be Austin or Ben, they both seem like the anger would build up over time until one of them snapped and decked Josh. Jeremy doesn't seem like someone who would be good in a fight, but I can see him joining in after someone else started things. Dreck can't even run without gagging, he would never start anything physical, but he seems to enjoy throwing out barbs online. I am still just floored any of the husbands can stand to be around Josh period.

Nope, RFP wouldn't dare get his pocket squares dirty. Or mess up his hair. No way I could see him in any kind of fight.

[Steff]

8 minutes ago, Dimi1 said:

what is the AMA post on reddit??

 

[MsJamieDornan]

4 hours ago, Zella said:

Other people doing a different shitty jobs of handling abuse doesn't mean that the Duggar way wasn't equally shitty in its own way.

Perfectly said.

[Absolom]

If you read the AMA, be sure to keep your scepticism filter on.  Much of it is suspect and in the original version she contradicted herself a lot.  

[GeeGolly]

33 minutes ago, JoanArc said:

 And with victim five thinks. IDGAF What the Duggar girls can agree to if she is still left out in the cold.

If you're speaking of the non-Duggar, I purposely don't discuss her as she has never publicly come forward.

[mynextmistake]

10 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

I hear you. I by no means think JB and M are great parents, but most parents do the best they can with what they know and what they have available. And in the case of JB & M, with this situation, I believe they did that.

There are parents out there who do know better and do nothing.

I don't believe JB & M let things slide with no worries because eh, they're only girls, I think they fucked up by not handling better it sooner, but I think they thought they had handled it. When they realized they didn't, they finally did something. I believe Josh was never really trusted again by his parents or his siblings, and being sent away for six months was a punishment.

And IMO, the girls weren't locked in their room, they were given the power and control to lock folks out of their room. For many abuse survivors having power and control is huge.

 

My recollection, which could be wrong, is that the girls were instructed to lock the door each night, not allowed to choose whether to lock it. 

[PikaScrewChu]

35 minutes ago, JoanArc said:

 And with victim five thinks. IDGAF What the Duggar girls can agree to if she is still left out in the cold.

If it hadn't been for Josh going after someone that wasn't his sisters I have a pretty good feeling this would have been kept hush hush and JB and Michelle would have done nothing. Move along, nothing to see here...

[Tikichick]

20 hours ago, Westiepeach said:

Unless you are a Duggar. Then all bets are off.

Well to be fair they are doing it for God.

[Tikichick]

11 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

I work with a lot of adult survivors of trauma. How JB & M handled the molestations was better than what happens in many families. Just imagine a little girl who wasn't believed and life in the family goes on as usual and compare that to the Duggar girls who were believed, their brother was sent away for 6 months and they were given a bedroom with doors that lock. And as parents, JB & M should care about Josh too, they're his parents. And it's not unusual for survivors to care about an abuser that they're related to, and they shouldn't feel shamed for doing so.

IMO, JB & M have done more harm to their girls by raising them to be dependent females who fear the non-Fundy world and think their primary role is breeding God's army. 

And trauma looks different for everyone. Think of the devastation of the Abaco Islands. Some folks will panic for years to come (or forever) at the drop of rain or the sound of wind. Some folks might become storm chasers. Some folks will truly think the storm was an anomaly and never think twice about the weather. Most folks will have some initial fear of weather that will eventually fade, but maintain a healthy awareness of the devastation that can occur during a severe weather event.

The Duggar girls are no different. How they process the molestations and how they were raised, will be unique to them. There are no shoulds with feelings and reactions. Not all survivors of trauma become depressed, anxious or live with PTSD.

 

I agree with much of what you say and have seen it in my job far too many times.  What I do think needs to be factored in with this situation is that fact that in their world the girls are seen as bearing some of the responsibility for being temptresses, and are also looked at as damaged goods under their system of beliefs.  These are people whose belief system stands for the idea that newborns have an inherently evil part of their nature at birth.  

[GeeGolly]

4 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

I agree with much of what you say and have seen it in my job far too many times.  What I do think needs to be factored in with this situation is that fact that in their world the girls are seen as bearing some of the responsibility for being temptresses, and are also looked at as damaged goods under their system of beliefs.  These are people whose belief system stands for the idea that newborns have an inherently evil part of their nature at birth.  

Yes, I agree which is why I mentioned JB & M doing more harm in the way they raised the girls.

I think original sin is a Catholic doctrine.

[Tikichick]

1 minute ago, GeeGolly said:

Yes, I agree which is why I mentioned JB & M doing more harm in the way they raised the girls.

I think original sin is a Catholic doctrine.

Original sin is a Catholic doctrine.  And yet they don't recommend addressing it by blanket training and disciplining infants and very young toddlers as the Duggar's practice it.

[OpieTaylor]

Regarding the apparent conflict between JB and Derick, what does JB expect/wish Jill would do? Surely they don’t want her to leave Derick, do they? And I don’t think they believe that she, as a wife, should be giving Derick ultimatums or telling him how it’s going to be. So does JB believe that Jill is correct in standing by her man? Meanwhile, does he think that Satan has built a fortress in Derick’s heart? Does he think Derick somehow deceived him and tricked JB into allowing the marriage to Jill? Why would God allow that to happen in JBoob’s world? Does JB even believe all the IBLP/Gothard theories anymore?

[MsJamieDornan]

I'm still confused why Jill has to ask Boobs permission to go to the TTH ? I understand he is upset with Derick, but what did Jill do ?

[mynextmistake]

10 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

I hear you. I by no means think JB and M are great parents, but most parents do the best they can with what they know and what they have available. And in the case of JB & M, with this situation, I believe they did that.

There are parents out there who do know better and do nothing.

I don't believe JB & M let things slide with no worries because eh, they're only girls, I think they fucked up by not handling better it sooner, but I think they thought they had handled it. When they realized they didn't, they finally did something. I believe Josh was never really trusted again by his parents or his siblings, and being sent away for six months was a punishment.

And IMO, the girls weren't locked in their room, they were given the power and control to lock folks out of their room. For many abuse survivors having power and control is huge.

 

And upon reviewing the police report, Josh was sent away from March to July. This would make his “punishment” 3 to 5 months depending on specific dates, not 6. And he spent that not at a treatment center or in counseling, but helping a guy JB knew renovate his house. JB probably charged the guy for Josh’s labor.