Jill, Derick & the Kids: Moving On!!

[emmawoodhouse]

1 minute ago, Kiss my mutt said:

I don’t think I referred to her as progressive so I’m not sure where you’re getting that from what I said. 

 

It's not based on anything you said. I was just adding to the conversation. 🙂

[hathorlive]

1 minute ago, Zella said:

Okay thank you! This is embarrassing to admit, but I did read that post and then forgot all about it as soon as I blinked. I was expecting a story from the days of Danger America. 

I feel like the world is spinning 5x faster than it should and nothing makes sense.  It's not helping that Jill is posting content like a women with a mortgage payment due. 

[Olliesmom]

49 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

I think she's tired of coming here and reading "you know she washed that flashlight off and put it back in the drawer, ewwwwwww".

 

What does the flashlight reference mean???

[emmawoodhouse]

14 minutes ago, Olliesmom said:

 

What does the flashlight reference mean???

Look up about 5-10 posts. It was just explained to Zella. 🙂

[auntieminem]

I am a believer in people's ability to change.  It is usually small and gradual.  So I am holding out hope that Jill and yes, Derrick will change over time. Even though I have always been pretty liberal I had years where I was less so, I am too embarrassed to talk about those less so times. I have always liked Jill because she does seem loving and sincere. Her lack of education and exposure to people outside her conservative bubble form her love the sinner but not sin thinking that seems bad (it is) but it is really a step, just hope she takes the next step, not a sinner or a sin, just love. 

[Kiss my mutt]

1 hour ago, lascuba said:

It's quite something to see jill get praised for preemptively "snarking" on snarkers, but when Jessa does it, she's this huge bitch. Whew.

It's been really depressing to see how so many are willing to essentially throw LGBTQ people under the bus so they can all "YASSS QUEEN!" Jill.

The difference is Jess is really a bitch. 
I don’t think laughing at her snark is throwing LGBTQ people under the bus. At least I don’t think my trans son and bisexual daughter would think so but I can ask. 

Edited October 24, 2020 by Kiss my mutt

[GeeGolly]

I'm not sure Jill is using the term "Karen" correctly. Karens aren't know-it-all snarkers, Karens are entitled privileged assholes. Karens think the world should cater to them and won't think twice about using their privilege to make it happen by calling the cops, speaking to the manager, etc. Karens also walk onto planes or into stores without masks during a pandemic.

As I said before, Jill needs to be careful, because the Duggar females come close to fitting that category without carrying out any specific action, just by the fact they think others need 'saving'. And certainly by making robo calls insisting only certain folks should be in public bathrooms.

Jill's forgetting, no one asked her to post about the flashlight. She could have just said she threw it out if she was anticipating snarky remarks about it.

 

[BigBingerBro]

[ouinason]

I honestly don't see anything wrong with the "love the person, hate the sin" attitude.  I hate a lot of sins that people commit every day (including myself and my husband) but I try and separate that thing I disagree with from how I feel about the person.  That's what you are supposed to do as a good Christian.  Now, I don't think being homosexual or transgender or any of those things are sins in themselves, but that is me, and I don't hate the person who feels that way, just the act of being an asshole.

[lascuba]

11 hours ago, hathorlive said:

I think the difference is that we've always known that Jessa was a bitch, so when she snarks, it's expected.  Jill has never been one to be snarky, hence the surprise.

I don't see how it's throwing LGTBQ people under the bus to allow other people the freedom to have their own opinion. It's this myopic thinking (my way is right, you are wrong) that has polarized the country.  I disagree with her views but in this country, she's allowed to have them. It's not my job to be the thought police.

This is the classic, "tolerant of the intolerant" fallacy. Everyone has the legal right to their own opinions, but shitty opinions are shitty opinions are shitty opinions. "Polarization" is the only moral option when one side wants marginalized groups under their boot.

[lascuba]

11 hours ago, Kiss my mutt said:

The difference is Jess is really a bitch. 
I don’t think laughing at her snark is throwing LGBTQ people under the bus. At least I don’t think my trans son and bisexual daughter would think so but I can ask. 

I'm not talking specifically about laughing at her pathetic attempt at snark with that comment, I'm talking about the overall praise she and Derick have been getting for all their (entirely serlf-serving) changes. I enjoy the thought of JB and Michelle suffering mental anguish over Jill as much as the next person, but damn, Jill and Derick are still the same bigots they've always been.

And if we're going to pull the "I have LGBTQ friends/family!" card, I can as my trans cousin and gay friends and my bisexual self what we think.

Edited October 24, 2020 by lascuba

[Suzn]

27 minutes ago, lascuba said:

I'm not talking specifically about laughing at her pathetic attempt at snark with that comment, I'm talking about the overall praise she and Derick have been getting for all their (entirely serlf-serving) changes. I enjoy the thought of JB and Michelle suffering mental anguish over Jill as much as the next person, but damn, Jill and Derick are still the same bigots they've always been.

I totally agree with what you've been writing and don't have a lot to add.  Of course, Jill can legally believe anything she chooses, but  her "hate the sin" attitude toward LGTBQ people is just not excusable.  For her to call it a "lifestyle" is factually wrong, not merely opinion.  For her superficial changes, Jill is heaped with praise and her beliefs are glossed over.

Something that is often written about is about how much her attitudes may change in the future - the expectation that she may "see the light" in the future, she is given leeway for her current beliefs.  So people who believe as she does may be expecting that those of us who believe differently will also "see the light".  I don't expect that to happen.

[DangerousMinds]

2 hours ago, ouinason said:

I honestly don't see anything wrong with the "love the person, hate the sin" attitude.  I hate a lot of sins that people commit every day (including myself and my husband) but I try and separate that thing I disagree with from how I feel about the person.  That's what you are supposed to do as a good Christian.  Now, I don't think being homosexual or transgender or any of those things are sins in themselves, but that is me, and I don't hate the person who feels that way, just the act of being an asshole.

Part of what I hate personally is the word “sin.” It’s not a concept that I or many others believe in.

1 hour ago, lascuba said:

This is the classic, "tolerant of the intolerant" fallacy. Everyone has the legal right to their own opinions, but shitty opinions are shitty opinions are shitty opinions. "Polarization" is the only moral option when one side wants marginalized groups under their boot.

Right. We can have different opinions about whether or not we like Brussels sprouts, or red wine, or wearing heels. Not about human rights and whether we are all entitled to them equally.

[DangerousMinds]

47 minutes ago, Suzn said:

I totally agree with what you've been writing and don't have a lot to add.  Of course, Jill can legally believe anything she chooses, but  her "hate the sin" attitude toward LGTBQ people is just not excusable.  For her to call it a "lifestyle" is factually wrong, not merely opinion.  For her superficial changes, Jill is heaped with praise and her beliefs are glossed over.

Something that is often written about is about how much her attitudes may change in the future - the expectation that she may "see the light" in the future, she is given leeway for her current beliefs.  So people who believe as she does may be expecting that those of us who believe differently will also "see the light".  I don't expect that to happen.

I hope many, many people pointed out to her that calling it a “lifestyle” was abjectly wrong and offensive on her post. Maybe she’ll spend some time thinking harder about it or even researching why it is NOT. Or she won’t. One can dream!

[Dehumidifier]

I would wash the flashlight, let it dry, test to see if it still worked and keep it if it did. You don't throw out underwear after one use, do you? Certainly the kids unmentionables have some bio hazards on them.

Edited October 24, 2020 by Dehumidifier
Remove apostrophe.

[GeeGolly]

1 hour ago, Dehumidifier said:

I would wash the flashlight, let it dry, test to see if it still worked and keep it if it did. You don't throw out underwear after one use, do you? Certainly the kids unmentionables have some bio hazards on them.

Eh, maybe if it fell in pee. Pulling it out of a poopie toilet would gag me enough to throw it away immediately.

(Jill did say "stuff")

[ouinason]

I think all the gay "lifestyle" stuff is stupid.  What is different about the lifestyle of an average gay/bi/trans/anyone than anyone else?

Jill is deeply ignorant about how others live their lives.  Someone probably once told her about the gay club scene and she thinks all non cis people live that way.  

[Albanyguy]

1 hour ago, ouinason said:

I think all the gay "lifestyle" stuff is stupid. 

I once had a co-worker who was fake-nice to my face but self-righteously said to everybody else that he "couldn't condone my lifestyle". My response was "What the hell does he think my lifestyle is? I go home at night, defrost a Marie Callender chicken pot pie and watch the History Channel!"

[DangerousMinds]

1 hour ago, ouinason said:

I think all the gay "lifestyle" stuff is stupid.  What is different about the lifestyle of an average gay/bi/trans/anyone than anyone else?

Jill is deeply ignorant about how others live their lives.  Someone probably once told her about the gay club scene and she thinks all non cis people live that way.  

The point is that it’s not a “lifestyle.” No one chooses their sexuality. Do I live a heterosexual “lifestyle?” No, I’m just me. I’ve always know I was attracted to men. Since early childhood. And so were gay men. They also had crushes on boys in kindergarten. They didn’t choose that any more than I did.

[mythoughtis]

I think Jill has a way to go but she is getting there.  She’s working from the inside out: herself, then her family, then her friends.... and the others. She’s not going to flip a switch and be on the progressive side of stuff... maybe never.  But in 5-10 more years she may very well be pretty darn understanding of people who  aren’t like her.  Particularly types of people that she may not even know she’s met.   She’s unlearning 22+ years of indoctrination.  You don’t do that quickly. 
look - she’s wearing  a swimsuit that doesn’t cover her from neck to knees.  She wears pants in front of her family ( Jinger doesn’t).  Let her think for herself a while longer before people expect her to think like they  do.  She’s barely separated herself from the Duggar mind control. Acceptance goes both ways.    

Edited October 24, 2020 by mythoughtis

[lascuba]

4 hours ago, Suzn said:

I totally agree with what you've been writing and don't have a lot to add.  Of course, Jill can legally believe anything she chooses, but  her "hate the sin" attitude toward LGTBQ people is just not excusable.  For her to call it a "lifestyle" is factually wrong, not merely opinion.  For her superficial changes, Jill is heaped with praise and her beliefs are glossed over.

Something that is often written about is about how much her attitudes may change in the future - the expectation that she may "see the light" in the future, she is given leeway for her current beliefs.  So people who believe as she does may be expecting that those of us who believe differently will also "see the light".  I don't expect that to happen.

Exactly. I can sadly see why former fundies or people with bigoted loved ones who are "nice" might be hopeful/optimistic towards Jill, but it's  just bonkers to me to judge her on who she might become in some nebulous future rather than the things she says and does in the here and now. Just bonkers. 

[GeeGolly]

19 minutes ago, mythoughtis said:

I think Jill has a way to go but she is getting there.  She’s working from the inside out: herself, then her family, then her friends.... and the others. She’s not going to flip a switch and be on the progressive side of stuff... maybe never.  But in 5-10 more years she may very well be pretty darn understanding of people who  aren’t like her.  Particularly types of people that she may not even know she’s met.   She’s unlearning 22+ years of indoctrination.  You don’t do that quickly. 
look - she’s wearing  a swimsuit that doesn’t cover her from neck to knees.  She wears pants in front of her family ( Jinger doesn’t).  Let her think for herself a while longer before people expect her to think like they  do.  She’s barely separated herself from the Duggar mind control. Acceptance goes both ways.    

I agree change takes time. Jill is letting go of some Gothard teachings and Duggar rules, but I don't believe her goals include becoming un-Fundy. Derick and his family are very, very conservative and I don't see Jill having any desire to move beyond that.

[Suzn]

26 minutes ago, lascuba said:

Exactly. I can sadly see why former fundies or people with bigoted loved ones who are "nice" might be hopeful/optimistic towards Jill, but it's  just bonkers to me to judge her on who she might become in some nebulous future rather than the things she says and does in the here and now. Just bonkers. 

 

7 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

I agree change takes time. Jill is letting go of some Gothard teachings and Duggar rules, but I don't believe her goals include becoming un-Fundy. Derick and his family are very, very conservative and I don't see Jill having any desire to move beyond that.

It's mind bending to give Jill credit for beliefs she might have someday.

And it is dismissive and stupid to use the term "lifestyle" for things that are intrinsic to individuals and are not by choice.  Someone needs to ask Jill about her decision process when she decided to be heterosexual.

[emma675]

I think Jill has made great strides and opened herself up to new ideas and beliefs, and I for one am still a little stunned that she's the Duggar who did it. She lived in that cult for more than 20 years so I try to give her credit for breaking away as much as she has in the last few. Seriously, it must be so difficult to break the programming she grew up in. 

However, she's still got some awful beliefs and I hope she gets called on them and is open enough to listen. Being gay is not a "lifestyle" and she needs to learn that. I wonder how she would feel if someone referred to her heterosexualilty as a "lifestyle"? Maybe it would finally register to her what she's really saying.

[lascuba]

1 hour ago, Suzn said:

 

It's mind bending to give Jill credit for beliefs she might have someday.

And it is dismissive and stupid to use the term "lifestyle" for things that are intrinsic to individuals and are not by choice.  Someone needs to ask Jill about her decision process when she decided to be heterosexual.

Oh, she's just letting god lead her. Everything she does is bible-based.

[GeeGolly]

I'm not too shocked its Jill who has moved beyond Gothard. She pretty much just stepped in line and followed her parents lead of what is right and wrong without any thought.

I think Jessa believes too much of the scary stuff they preach/teach to let herself think beyond it and I think Jinger is a true believer in Jesus. Jana is the one who I think questions their beliefs vs mainstream Christian beliefs, but likely feels guilty entertaining these thoughts. Joy probably falls somewhere between Jill and Jana and now willingly follows Austin's lead. 

This is why I don't believe Jill will move much past where she is as far as faith. Because Derick won't.

[hathorlive]

4 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

I agree change takes time. Jill is letting go of some Gothard teachings and Duggar rules, but I don't believe her goals include becoming un-Fundy. Derick and his family are very, very conservative and I don't see Jill having any desire to move beyond that.

But three years ago, we would have sworn that Jill would never wear pants or disagree with her father.  I don't think anyone is seriously hoping Jill becomes progressive.  I'm basically hoping she realizes that everyone has a right to happiness and a right to exist and love the way they want to love. I don't think people are praising Jill for what she MIGHT become but for what she's already let go. 

[hathorlive]

3 hours ago, emma675 said:

I think Jill has made great strides and opened herself up to new ideas and beliefs, and I for one am still a little stunned that she's the Duggar who did it. She lived in that cult for more than 20 years so I try to give her credit for breaking away as much as she has in the last few. Seriously, it must be so difficult to break the programming she grew up in. 

However, she's still got some awful beliefs and I hope she gets called on them and is open enough to listen. Being gay is not a "lifestyle" and she needs to learn that. I wonder how she would feel if someone referred to her heterosexualilty as a "lifestyle"? Maybe it would finally register to her what she's really saying.

I look at it this way.  It took Jill 27 years and some to get indoctrinated.  She's barely three years away from drinking the kool-aid.  It's going to take years for her to make more progress.  As for being open to listening to other people's beliefs, she has to actually be AROUND people who have different beliefs.  That never happened before because she never associated with anyone not a Duggar or in the cult.  Now, she's got a child in public school, her husband has associations with other students and future colleagues.  It's hard to change your mind or open yourself up to other viewpoints when you never been challenged on things like calling sexual orientation a lifestyle.  She's still calling hormonal birth control a method of abortion for god's sake. But as she moves away from group thought there is the CHANCE she might hear other opinions.  No one else in her family is in the same situation.  I don't know if she'll ever change her mind but I tend to give people the option to fail before condemning them.

[jcbrown]

On 10/23/2020 at 8:00 PM, JAYJAY1979 said:

I wonder if Jill realizes Jessa and sis in law Lauren are Karen's in training? Lol

I think Jessa could likely give a master class.

12 hours ago, ouinason said:

I honestly don't see anything wrong with the "love the person, hate the sin" attitude.  I hate a lot of sins that people commit every day (including myself and my husband) but I try and separate that thing I disagree with from how I feel about the person.  That's what you are supposed to do as a good Christian.  Now, I don't think being homosexual or transgender or any of those things are sins in themselves, but that is me, and I don't hate the person who feels that way, just the act of being an asshole.

I also hate the act of being an assole but categorizing my identity as a sin (I'm bisexual, albeit married to a man so I can "pass") is problematic to me.

10 hours ago, Suzn said:

I totally agree with what you've been writing and don't have a lot to add.  Of course, Jill can legally believe anything she chooses, but  her "hate the sin" attitude toward LGTBQ people is just not excusable.  For her to call it a "lifestyle" is factually wrong, not merely opinion.  For her superficial changes, Jill is heaped with praise and her beliefs are glossed over.

This.

9 hours ago, DangerousMinds said:

Part of what I hate personally is the word “sin.” It’s not a concept that I or many others believe in.

And this.

Edited October 25, 2020 by jcbrown

[GeeGolly]

6 hours ago, hathorlive said:

But three years ago, we would have sworn that Jill would never wear pants or disagree with her father.  I don't think anyone is seriously hoping Jill becomes progressive.  I'm basically hoping she realizes that everyone has a right to happiness and a right to exist and love the way they want to love. I don't think people are praising Jill for what she MIGHT become but for what she's already let go. 

Oh I agree. I believe I also praised her, now, and way back when she donned her first pair of pants. But when she starting wearing pants, that was a choice that Jill made. Similar to more recently when she cut her hair. I believe I shared how impressed I was with her for these recent changes as well, although none of them really feel like choices. They feel like chain reactions from a fight Derick was having over money.

I'm a therapist, I know that change, whether chosen or forced, is hard and Jill appears to be working hard on reconciling recent changes. But Jill and Derick are still Jill and Derick. They made that very evident during one of their recent Q & A videos.

I'm also okay with being wrong. I was one of the few that had high hopes with Derick (and Jeremy) when he first entered the family. Pretty much right up until he called out Jazz on SM. So if Jill and Derick do change, I'll be right there clapping.

But I also don't see these big changes with her photos and presentation on SM that others see. I see her posting the same pictures she's always posted and the same, 'oops, my kids did it again' posts. Even her recent post about "homeschooling" Sam. It looked to me like they were sitting on the floor of the guest room, with a pile of folded laundry, while Jill ate salad. Homeschooling? Same ole Jill to me.

I'm happy that Jill is less enmeshed with her dysfunctional family. Even if it was forced on her. But as I've said a couple times above, their core beliefs are still very Duggar and because we're not watching Jill evolve due to thoughtful choices, I don't see her, or Derick, changing much in the future.

 

[hathorlive]

3 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

But I also don't see these big changes with her photos and presentation on SM that others see. I see her posting the same pictures she's always posted and the same, 'oops, my kids did it again' posts. Even her recent post about "homeschooling" Sam. It looked to me like they were sitting on the floor of the guest room, with a pile of folded laundry, while Jill ate salad. Homeschooling? Same ole Jill to me.

I'm happy that Jill is less enmeshed with her dysfunctional family. Even if it was forced on her. But as I've said a couple times above, their core beliefs are still very Duggar and because we're not watching Jill evolve due to thoughtful choices, I don't see her, or Derick, changing much in the future.

You make a lot of good points!

She's always going to be a conservative Christian.  But as much as I can't stand SBC, it's not a cult.  Heck, I can't stand 99% of religions and their backward dogma.  But at least most SBC are fairly normal, if a bit backward.  IBLP/ Gothard is a cult. So for the sake of her kids, I'm thrilled with any mainstream movement.  And I agree that a lot of the change we are seeing is being driven by factors other than realizing she needs to change.  But I have hope she's being exposed to views and situations that challenge her cultish beliefs.   Have you seen the TedTalk of the former Westboro church member who left the cult?  She was spewing hate online when someone stopped and thoughtfully engaged with her, calming pointing out the flaws in her logic.  He helped her see the flaws in her philosophy through discourse.  Change happens when you have engagement with others who have different views.  Jill and, even Derrick, are going to be exposed to different views.  It may moderate them over time but I can't see them ever being progressive. But the further they move away from the cult, and the more their kids are exposed to mainstream life, the kids may have a chance at being normal.  I guess that's my yardstick.  But at least Jill has put herself in a place where discourse can happen.  It might not be overnight.  It might not be ever.  But it is a possibility.

I don't have kids but Sam is what, 3?  I guess at 3, anything you teach your kids is fairly informal and not curriculum based.  It looks like Jill is teaching him basic things in preparation to go to school, which is awesome.  I am excited to see so many books in her house and to see the kids looking at books on a regular basis.  The saddest part about 19 kids was always the lack of books in the big house.  I guess time will tell but her kids are going to be much better off than the rest of their cousins.  

[Absolom]

1 hour ago, hathorlive said:

She's always going to be a conservative Christian.  But as much as I can't stand SBC, it's not a cult.  Heck, I can't stand 99% of religions and their backward dogma.  But at least most SBC are fairly normal, if a bit backward.  IBLP/ Gothard is a cult. So for the sake of her kids, I'm thrilled with any mainstream movement.

This is how I see it.  Her kids have a chance at a normal life this way.  From SBC to progressive isn't a huge step.  

[PikaScrewChu]

Who the hell knows. Anecdote doesn't equal data and all that, but I've noticed wives in the same situation as Derick and Jill question their beliefs more and are more willing to move on to progressive ideas while their husbands will firmly hold onto them. 

Just because Derick holds certain beliefs doesn't mean Jill won't start questioning them and potentially moving past them.

Not ready to throw Jill down the fires of damnation yet. She still holds awful and problematic beliefs, but she's got a lifetime ahead of her to be exposed to new groups of people and different lifestyles outside of Derick's influence. It's not too much longer and he'll be working extremely long hours and it'll be just Jill and the boys for long stretches of time. 

[Suzn]

16 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

I'm not too shocked its Jill who has moved beyond Gothard. She pretty much just stepped in line and followed her parents lead of what is right and wrong without any thought.

I think Jessa believes too much of the scary stuff they preach/teach to let herself think beyond it and I think Jinger is a true believer in Jesus. Jana is the one who I think questions their beliefs vs mainstream Christian beliefs, but likely feels guilty entertaining these thoughts. Joy probably falls somewhere between Jill and Jana and now willingly follows Austin's lead. 

This is why I don't believe Jill will move much past where she is as far as faith. Because Derick won't.

I think this is key.  She is still following her early training in that she is still being lead by her headship.  I see no indication that she will do anything or believe anything contrary to Derick's beliefs.

[beagletime]

On 10/24/2020 at 8:33 AM, BigBingerBro said:

I can't predict what the future holds for Jill.  But, Jill looks really good in this cute swimsuit. She has a great figure and and the swimwear is very flattering.  I'd wear this suit.

[lascuba]

Derick went to a secular university and still came out of it seeking JIM BOB DUGGAR as a "prayer partner" and marrying his deliberately undereducated daughter. I don't know what causes people like them to change but it's not simple exposure to new people and ideas. Overall, I think most significant change happens across generations, and as long as Jill and Derick don't end up homeschooling, there's some hope for their kids. But for Jill and Derick to change in any meaningful way (I don't care that pants and haircuts are significant in the fucked up world she grew up in), it would probably take something drastic or personally devastating.  Simply knowing different people and reading about things is unlikely to do anything, because if there's anything that human beings excel at, it's stubbornly ignoring any evidence that contradict their long held beliefs if they have no stake in things changing.

[QuinnInND]

3 hours ago, beagletime said:

I can't predict what the future holds for Jill.  But, Jill looks really good in this cute swimsuit. She has a great figure and and the swimwear is very flattering.  I'd wear this suit.

She does look good. She's come farther than I thought she ever would in so many ways. I'm hoping she keeps going and growing. Yes, she's still got some awful wrong beliefs, but maybe we'll get progress there too as she goes. Who would have thought we'd see her posing in a bathing suit, showing legs and shoulders a few years ago! 

[GeeGolly]

1 hour ago, lascuba said:

Derick went to a secular university and still came out of it seeking JIM BOB DUGGAR as a "prayer partner" and marrying his deliberately undereducated daughter. I don't know what causes people like them to change but it's not simple exposure to new people and ideas. Overall, I think most significant change happens across generations, and as long as Jill and Derick don't end up homeschooling, there's some hope for their kids. But for Jill and Derick to change in any meaningful way (I don't care that pants and haircuts are significant in the fucked up world she grew up in), it would probably take something drastic or personally devastating.  Simply knowing different people and reading about things is unlikely to do anything, because if there's anything that human beings excel at, it's stubbornly ignoring any evidence that contradict their long held beliefs if they have no stake in things changing.

This is very true. There are plenty of folks, like Miss Cathy for example, that have been exposed to the world at large consistently and never waiver. 

[Suzn]

3 hours ago, lascuba said:

Derick went to a secular university and still came out of it seeking JIM BOB DUGGAR as a "prayer partner" and marrying his deliberately undereducated daughter. I don't know what causes people like them to change but it's not simple exposure to new people and ideas. Overall, I think most significant change happens across generations, and as long as Jill and Derick don't end up homeschooling, there's some hope for their kids. But for Jill and Derick to change in any meaningful way (I don't care that pants and haircuts are significant in the fucked up world she grew up in), it would probably take something drastic or personally devastating.  Simply knowing different people and reading about things is unlikely to do anything, because if there's anything that human beings excel at, it's stubbornly ignoring any evidence that contradict their long held beliefs if they have no stake in things changing.

I don't see why it would be any more likely that Jill and Derick come around to a progressive attitude than for those of us with liberal beliefs to change our minds and turn conservative.  People's attitudes can change somewhat over time in response to their experiences, but mostly people cling tightly to their beliefs.  It takes a certain type of personality to be open to change.  There are a few people who seem to constantly change, going with trends and never land anywhere firmly - and I don't trust anyone like that.

[MzTori77]

Strictly out of curiosity 😁, I watched pretty much all of the videos. (Might have dozed off a couple of times) Derick is about as interesting and fun as a wet noodle. He hardly ever laughs, and when he does, it’s usually at a lame joke he made. He doesn’t really get in there and play with his boys. He sat on the side of the pool and videoed while Jill got in with the boys. And his narration can literally put you to sleep....monotone and boring. “Second full day at the beach. Another fun day” 😴 That kind of stuff. He walked out in the Gulf a few times with the boys, but most of the time he would be sitting in a chair while the boys played in the sand. I realize we don’t see every minute, but there was a lot of video, and I’m pretty sure that’s representative of how he really is. I’m twice Derick’s age, and on the two beach trips I was on this summer with my family, I was down on the sand digging holes and building castles with my grandsons. That’s what it’s all about! Derick just looks too stiff and bothered to actually laugh and play with his kids. I guess the kids were having fun anyway, and they don’t even realize that they’re missing out on a fun dad. 

[questionfear]

On 10/23/2020 at 11:49 PM, hathorlive said:

I think the difference is that we've always known that Jessa was a bitch, so when she snarks, it's expected.  Jill has never been one to be snarky, hence the surprise.

I don't see how it's throwing LGTBQ people under the bus to allow other people the freedom to have their own opinion. It's this myopic thinking (my way is right, you are wrong) that has polarized the country.  I disagree with her views but in this country, she's allowed to have them. It's not my job to be the thought police.

Except let's say that Jill's quote was that she's fine with people of color, but she wouldn't be ok if Israel or Sam married a woman of color. Would she get a pass for being super racist because otherwise you're being the thought police? 

What she said is no different than if she said something horrifically racist. This isn't a gray area here-homophobia is bad, full stop, and if your opinion is that being gay is a sin, keep it to yourself. 

[lascuba]

1 hour ago, questionfear said:

Except let's say that Jill's quote was that she's fine with people of color, but she wouldn't be ok if Israel or Sam married a woman of color. Would she get a pass for being super racist because otherwise you're being the thought police? 

What she said is no different than if she said something horrifically racist. This isn't a gray area here-homophobia is bad, full stop, and if your opinion is that being gay is a sin, keep it to yourself. 

Saw on reddit that Derick claims they weren't paid for the People interview. They did it because People had run that article about them starting that "non-profit" and soliciting donations when they were "missionaries" even though they had an income from the show. Derick feels they "unnecessarily" lost money because of that article, even though nothing was stopping him from saying at the time that TLC wasn't paying them.

Tell me again how all these changes are the result of sincere growth and not a cash grab.

[Tikichick]

On 10/24/2020 at 6:00 PM, lascuba said:

Exactly. I can sadly see why former fundies or people with bigoted loved ones who are "nice" might be hopeful/optimistic towards Jill, but it's  just bonkers to me to judge her on who she might become in some nebulous future rather than the things she says and does in the here and now. Just bonkers. 

 

On 10/24/2020 at 6:33 PM, Suzn said:

 

It's mind bending to give Jill credit for beliefs she might have someday.

And it is dismissive and stupid to use the term "lifestyle" for things that are intrinsic to individuals and are not by choice.  Someone needs to ask Jill about her decision process when she decided to be heterosexual.

My hopefulness at this point isn't really about Jill per se.   The changes are making me hopeful that there will be multiple gaps of light streaming in for her children, gaps that may show them the way to different paths they may eventually choose for themselves.   Watching the recent coverage about the NXIUM cult really makes me see just how difficult it must be to overcome a very closed off upbringing with little knowledge and constant oversight determined to propagandize and indoctrinate you at every turn, always insuring you have little resources to make choices different from their intent.   If grown, sophisticated, professionals with educations and privilege can be sucked into a cult after a lifetime of options and freedom, have their free will taken away and not even recognize it, how easy is it for children stuck and raised in this fundie nonsense to even grasp the idea they can live differently -- and then figure out how to go about it?       

As far as making a huge fuss over the semantics of using the word lifestyle -- a word that had been used for many years, including by members of the LGBTQ community,  I think it's more helpful to understand what a person's actual thoughts are before making an assumption there's disagreement or an attempt to be dismissive or derogatory.   IMO there's no point in going to battle stations over a simple failure to communicate 

[Zella]

3 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

 Watching the recent coverage about the NXIUM cult really makes me see just how difficult it must be to overcome a very closed off upbringing with little knowledge and constant oversight determined to propagandize and indoctrinate you at every turn, always insuring you have little resources to make choices different from their intent.   If grown, sophisticated, professionals with educations and privilege can be sucked into a cult after a lifetime of options and freedom, have their free will taken away and not even recognize it, how easy is it for children stuck and raised in this fundie nonsense to even grasp the idea they can live differently -- and then figure out how to go about it?       

This is a good point. I have not watched the recent stuff on NXIVM but a few years ago I fell down the cult research rabbithole, especially with Jim Jones and Scientology. It was really eye-opening, especially with Jones, how many people who were intelligent and educated were recruited and stayed for years--and even died with him at Jonestown. 

[beagletime]

9 minutes ago, Zella said:

This is a good point. I have not watched the recent stuff on NXIVM but a few years ago I fell down the cult research rabbithole, especially with Jim Jones and Scientology. It was really eye-opening, especially with Jones, how many people who were intelligent and educated were recruited and stayed for years--and even died with him at Jonestown. 

Jim Jones was honored by the San Francisco Board of Supervisors.   Some of whom compared him to Ghandi.  It really is something how easily people can be pulled in by cult leaders.

[Zella]

9 minutes ago, beagletime said:

Jim Jones was honored by the San Francisco Board of Supervisors.   Some of whom compared him to Ghandi.  It really is something how easily people can be pulled in by cult leaders.

He was a very powerful figure in SF politics back in the 70s for sure! And he had quite a bit of clout in Indianapolis before he moved. I'd never realized that until I started reading about him. I always thought of him as just some fringe figure. 

[DangerousMinds]

5 minutes ago, Zella said:

He was a very powerful figure in SF politics back in the 70s for sure! And he had quite a bit of clout in Indianapolis before he moved. I'd never realized that until I started reading about him. I always thought of him as just some fringe figure. 

Every on, he had some good ideas. Later he was just warped!

[Kiss my mutt]

15 hours ago, Suzn said:

I don't see why it would be any more likely that Jill and Derick come around to a progressive attitude than for those of us with liberal beliefs to change our minds and turn conservative.  People's attitudes can change somewhat over time in response to their experiences, but mostly people cling tightly to their beliefs.  It takes a certain type of personality to be open to change.  There are a few people who seem to constantly change, going with trends and never land anywhere firmly - and I don't trust anyone like that.

I went from believing what the church told me about sin since I was forced as a child to go to church three times a week and my beliefs have done a complete 180 since then because as soon as I started to have agency over my own life, I began to grow and change from being conservative to being liberal and Jill’s upbringing was more indoctrinating than mine was as I was able to go to public school and secular college. My 80 year old mom has changed her beliefs to being more liberal which I though would never happen coming from a woman who refused to talk to me for months when she found out I had premarital sex. People’s capacity for growth shouldn’t be discounted. So who knows, as someone else said, we’re talking about what could happen but for now, obviously she has some problematic beliefs and attitudes that are backwards and bigoted. 
 

 

[Suzn]

3 minutes ago, Kiss my mutt said:

I went from believing what the church told me about sin since I was forced as a child to go to church three times a week and my beliefs have done a complete 180 since then because as soon as I started to have agency over my own life, I began to grow and change from being conservative to being liberal and Jill’s upbringing was more indoctrinating than mine was as I was able to go to public school and secular college. My 80 year old mom has changed her beliefs to being more liberal which I though would never happen coming from a woman who refused to talk to me for months when she found out I had premarital sex. People’s capacity for growth shouldn’t be discounted. So who knows, as someone else said, we’re talking about what could happen but for now, obviously she has some problematic beliefs and attitudes that are backwards and bigoted. 
 

 

I was not suggesting that it was not possible for Jill to change to more liberal attitudes.  I was saying that we can't assume that she will.  It is possible but not that likely and as I and others have said, she doesn't get credit for what she may believe in the future.

[Kiss my mutt]

3 minutes ago, Suzn said:

I was not suggesting that it was not possible for Jill to change to more liberal attitudes.  I was saying that we can't assume that she will.  It is possible but not that likely and as I and others have said, she doesn't get credit for what she may believe in the future.

Yes and I think I alluded to that in my last sentence.