Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[crazy8s]

5 minutes ago, BetyBee said:

I agree! Although I do like to imagine that if it was true, Josh was wiping away tears as Anna told him she was divorcing him and that Priscilla came along to support Anna. But there's no way that's what happened! A girl can dream though!

Sadly, this made me laugh picturing Priscilla in a support person role, my imagination is like how would that play out.....

She would appear the person least ready to be supportive. But then I think she must be solid enough in spewing the brainwashed crap of gothard consistently and enthusiastically since fab dave is still with her.

[ChristmasCandy]

🤢🤮In my dreams Priscilla was there as a diversion for Anna so she could get FF magic starter juice for number 8🤢🤮

[merylinkid]

43 minutes ago, ChristmasCandy said:

🤢🤮In my dreams Priscilla was there as a diversion for Anna so she could get FF magic starter juice for number 8🤢🤮

No wonder FF was crying.

[Heathen]

On 12/28/2022 at 11:42 AM, quarks said:

My guess? She's convinced herself that the crime was committed by Caleb Williams, and that the appeals court will immediately recognize this and free Josh within the next couple of months - allowing her to get pregnant again. This is obviously deeply unrealistic on any number of levels, and ignores that even the best case scenario won't really free Josh, but just order a second trial, which might or might not change the outcome.

But I don't think she's capable of believing anything else right now. And so, I don't think she's going to start grieving about not having a baby this year for at least a few more months.

 

It would be easier to believe that than to acknowledge that her husband is a pedophile. Ofsmuggar is fundie garbage, but I do feel sorry for her in that one respect. 

[Scarlett45]

Hearing of this exchange I think of the position Priscilla was being put in. Even if she wanted to help out her sister, having to be witness to Josh's crying and their private conversation couldn't have been fun for her. I have not an iota of sympathy for Josh, so his tears dont move me. 

[ginger90]

17 hours ago, Gemma Violet said:

WOACB says there were two visits this weekend by Anna.  Friday by herself and Saturday with her sister Pricilla.  Anna was all done up, hair and makeup.  There was an intense conversation and Josh was wiping away tears.

 

Is this supposedly from the person who happens to always be visiting at the same time as FF gets visitors? 

[ChristmasCandy]

Okay everyone here who thinks that FF will be a changed man 😂 when ever he gets out of prison please raise your hand. Yeah I didn't think so.

[Salacious Kitty]

43 minutes ago, ChristmasCandy said:

Okay everyone here who thinks that FF will be a changed man 😂 when ever he gets out of prison please raise your hand. Yeah I didn't think so.

Oh, he'll be changed. Just not for the better.

[jacourt]

Are prisoners allowed unlimited visits?

[Salacious Kitty]

7 minutes ago, jacourt said:

Are prisoners allowed unlimited visits?

I think there's a monthly limit.

[sagittarius sue]

15 minutes ago, jacourt said:

Are prisoners allowed unlimited visits?

I believe it's 4 hours total per month.

[Absolom]

They get points that equate to visits allowed.  He could lose points for infractions.  Each prison has its own rules.  I'm pretty sure it's closer to four visits a month than four hours.  

[Scarlett45]

7 hours ago, Absolom said:

They get points that equate to visits allowed.  He could lose points for infractions.  Each prison has its own rules.  I'm pretty sure it's closer to four visits a month than four hours.  

Assuming there are no disciplinary issues, 4 visits a month sounds about right. Visits may be 4hrs each, with less time available on holidays. (Knowledge courtesy of my visit to Stateville in law school over a decade ago so don’t quote me!)

[ginger90]

From the BOP site:

Visiting Duration

By law, an inmate gets at least four hours of visiting time per month but usually the prison can provide more. However, the Warden can restrict the length of visits or the number of people who can visit at once, to avoid overcrowding in the visiting room.

 

Specific to FCI Seagoville:

Frequency of Visits and Number of Visitors

Inmates may receive visits during scheduled visiting periods. Inmates may have up to five visitors each visit. All visitors, including children, will be assigned an individual seat. Visiting points will be modified to six (6) points per month effective June 1, 2016. Therefore points will be calculated based on each visit regardless of duration. One (1) point per day on Monday and/or Friday. Two (2) points per day on weekends and holidays.

I didn’t find anything more recent than this.

 

Edited February 1, 2023 by ginger90

[quarks]

On 1/31/2023 at 12:50 PM, Heathen said:

It would be easier to believe that than to acknowledge that her husband is a pedophile. Ofsmuggar is fundie garbage, but I do feel sorry for her in that one respect. 

I don't think she's emotionally or mentally able to acknowledge that.

[AstridM]

2 hours ago, quarks said:

I don't think she's emotionally or mentally able to acknowledge that.

If that’s the case, maybe she shouldn’t have 7 kids in her care. . . 

[GeeGolly]

Personally I don't think the FF is a pedophile. IMO he's a sexual deviant whose unhealthy interest is sex has escalated. Either way he is a creep and a criminal, and behind bars is right where he should be.

As far as Anna, IMO her brain is protecting her right now. She thinks her has world has crashed down around her but her brain knows that isn't quite true. The minute she acknowledges Josh for who he really is, that is when her world truly crashes. That is when she has to make real decisions. That is when she realizes she can't stay with Josh. That is when she realizes she is a single, unemployed mother of 7. That is when she realizes God doesn't favor special Fundies. That is when she realizes she has to start all over.

Until Anna's strong enough to handle all that her brain is keeping her from going there.

[Salacious Kitty]

Anna is so deeply indoctrinated and in denial that I fear she will never wake up to reality.

[Future Cat Lady]

5 hours ago, Salacious Kitty said:

Anna is so deeply indoctrinated and in denial that I fear she will never wake up to reality.

She’s also surrounded by people who will make sure she still supports him. Her parents, JB and M, David W. and her sister will never suggest she gets a divorce.

[AstridM]

14 hours ago, Salacious Kitty said:

Anna is so deeply indoctrinated and in denial that I fear she will never wake up to reality.

I really don’t care if she ever wakes up, frankly, but she has 7 kids. Thank goodness Pest is in prison for years because she wouldn’t be able to protect her kids, imo. 

[Salacious Kitty]

37 minutes ago, AstridM said:

I really don’t care if she ever wakes up, frankly, but she has 7 kids. Thank goodness Pest is in prison for years because she wouldn’t be able to protect her kids, imo. 

She wouldn't feel the NEED to protect them. Sadly. 

[AstridM]

27 minutes ago, Salacious Kitty said:

She wouldn't feel the NEED to protect them. Sadly. 

And that’s the main issue. 

[Salacious Kitty]

31 minutes ago, AstridM said:

And that’s the main issue. 

I'm not disagreeing with you. Just pointing out how she got to that place. 

[beckie]

And the fact that she takes all seven kids to jail to see him, and has no qualms with him holding the baby the entire time, says she DOESN'T feel the need to protect them.

[Albanyguy]

7 hours ago, beckie said:

And the fact that she takes all seven kids to jail to see him, and has no qualms with him holding the baby the entire time, says she DOESN'T feel the need to protect them.

I wonder about the effect these visits are having on the kids. Even though it’s a low-security facility, it still must be confusing and frightening for them. And I can’t believe that Josh cares that much about seeing them (except for photo ops, he barely seemed to interact with them at home). 
 

I think that it’s possible that, after the initial shock of Daddy suddenly being gone, the kids settled down and now don’t seem to miss him at all, so Anna drags them to the prison to make sure they don’t forget him and that they are made aware of how their family is being persecuted: “Daddy is here because he was blamed for bad things someone else did! He’s suffering for the sins of others, just like Jesus did! And he’s saving souls here! You should be proud that he’s a hero for the Lord!”

Or perhaps Anna brings the kids (or her sister Priscilla) because she and Josh really have nothing to say to each other and she needs a buffer to avoid sitting in uncomfortable silence.

 

[merylinkid]

Anna was all about how GREAT God was when she was Crown Princess.   But, I do feel a smidge sorry for her.  Just a smidge.   Can you imagine praying your whole life that God and your parents would find the perfect man for you and it turns out who God thinks you should spend the rest of your life with and have kids with - is someone who does what Josh did?   How do you wrap your head around that?  

Anna would not be the first wife to be sailing happily along the River of Denial when her husband goes to jail for a heinous thing.

[Scarlett45]

1 hour ago, Albanyguy said:

I wonder about the effect these visits are having on the kids. Even though it’s a low-security facility, it still must be confusing and frightening for them. And I can’t believe that Josh cares that much about seeing them (except for photo ops, he barely seemed to interact with them at home). 
 

I think that it’s possible that, after the initial shock of Daddy suddenly being gone, the kids settled down and now don’t seem to miss him at all, so Anna drags them to the prison to make sure they don’t forget him and that they are made aware of how their family is being persecuted: “Daddy is here because he was blamed for bad things someone else did! He’s suffering for the sins of others, just like Jesus did! And he’s saving souls here! You should be proud that he’s a hero for the Lord!”

Or perhaps Anna brings the kids (or her sister Priscilla) because she and Josh really have nothing to say to each other and she needs a buffer to avoid sitting in uncomfortable silence.

 

I really don’t know. Many children of incarcerated parents visit on holidays. In my own minimal experience with this, my cousin who was unjustly convicted of murdering her abusive husband- her kids did come visit her (their dad, her first husband would bring them, or their grandmother would). But she was an involved loving Mom and much missed family member; and she’s been out far longer than she was in. I went on a few dates with a guy in college who’s father was in Angola for murder, and he mentioned his mom taking him to visit although his father went in when he was a baby and never parented him. 
 

I say all this to say, of all the things Anna does, taking the kids for holiday visits isn’t hard or necessarily harmful to them. I do think being in denial about what Josh has done is harmful. I can also admit taking your child to visit an incarcerated parent who has been convicted of a nonviolent crime or unjustly convicted (like in the case of my cousin where it was self defense after years of abuse) is vastly different than the type of crime Josh has been convicted of. 
 

If Anna didn’t take the children I wouldn’t blame her either, but if the kids want to go and see their father a few times a year I can’t blame them for that. If they don’t want to go (for those that are big enough) I would respect that too. But we know this isn’t about the kids, this is about Anna!

[Notabug]

12 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

I really don’t know. Many children of incarcerated parents visit on holidays. In my own minimal experience with this, my cousin who was unjustly convicted of murdering her abusive husband- her kids did come visit her (their dad, her first husband would bring them, or their grandmother would). But she was an involved loving Mom and much missed family member; and she’s been out far longer than she was in. I went on a few dates with a guy in college who’s father was in Angola for murder, and he mentioned his mom taking him to visit although his father went in when he was a baby and never parented him. 
 

I say all this to say, of all the things Anna does, taking the kids for holiday visits isn’t hard or necessarily harmful to them. I do think being in denial about what Josh has done is harmful. I can also admit taking your child to visit an incarcerated parent who has been convicted of a nonviolent crime or unjustly convicted (like in the case of my cousin where it was self defense after years of abuse) is vastly different than the type of crime Josh has been convicted of. 
 

If Anna didn’t take the children I wouldn’t blame her either, but if the kids want to go and see their father a few times a year I can’t blame them for that. If they don’t want to go (for those that are big enough) I would respect that too. But we know this isn’t about the kids, this is about Anna!

If nothing else, taking the kids to see their father means they will grow up with a realistic understanding of where he is.  Kids tend to fill in the blanks anyway, and, if they didn't see their father handcuffed and in prison, they might think he'd abandoned them entirely or that he was on a prolonged business trip or any number of things.  It is better for them to know where he is and to have the opportunity to visit if they want.

Prince Harry, in The Spare, talked about the death of his mother and how, for years, he didn't think she was really dead, but that she had run away to escape the paparazzi and had started a new life and would show up to get him and his brother someday.  Kids will try to come up with an explanation for stuff they don't understand; so letting the kids see their father in prison is the best way to make sure they understand it as best they can.

[Scarlett45]

25 minutes ago, Notabug said:

If nothing else, taking the kids to see their father means they will grow up with a realistic understanding of where he is.  Kids tend to fill in the blanks anyway, and, if they didn't see their father handcuffed and in prison, they might think he'd abandoned them entirely or that he was on a prolonged business trip or any number of things.  It is better for them to know where he is and to have the opportunity to visit if they want.

Prince Harry, in The Spare, talked about the death of his mother and how, for years, he didn't think she was really dead, but that she had run away to escape the paparazzi and had started a new life and would show up to get him and his brother someday.  Kids will try to come up with an explanation for stuff they don't understand; so letting the kids see their father in prison is the best way to make sure they understand it as best they can.

I hadn’t thought of that, but it’s a good point. Thanks for sharing that. Of course I am sorry that any child has been put in that position, the kids didn’t do anything wrong and certainly didn’t choose their parent; but yes it’s better for them to know the truth IMO. 

[Salacious Kitty]

6 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

I hadn’t thought of that, but it’s a good point. Thanks for sharing that. Of course I am sorry that any child has been put in that position, the kids didn’t do anything wrong and certainly didn’t choose their parent; but yes it’s better for them to know the truth IMO. 

But they don't know the truth. They know Anna's spin on it. They probably think Daddy will be released soon. Is false hope worse than the truth? 

[Scarlett45]

3 minutes ago, Salacious Kitty said:

But they don't know the truth. They know Anna's spin on it. They probably think Daddy will be released soon. Is false hope worse than the truth? 

I meant the truth about where he is, like @Notabug mentioned. 
 

I do see what you’re saying though. 

[Salacious Kitty]

I don't think Anna would deprive her kids of their father, no matter how heinous his crimes. So, they wouldn't have to make up scenarios like Prince Harry did after Diana died. 

Anna's denial is another topic. 

[Future Cat Lady]

1 hour ago, Salacious Kitty said:

But they don't know the truth. They know Anna's spin on it. They probably think Daddy will be released soon. Is false hope worse than the truth? 

Actually, we have no idea what Anna really thinks or what she said to the kids. Most snarkers think Anna is in complete denial, but that’s speculation not a cold hard fact.

 

[Salacious Kitty]

21 minutes ago, Future Cat Lady said:

Actually, we have no idea what Anna really thinks or what she said to the kids. Most snarkers think Anna is in complete denial, but that’s speculation not a cold hard fact.

 

Anna's last Insta post was indicative of her mindset. It said that there was "more to the story." Given that FF's defense is trying to blame Caleb Williams, I think that's where Anna was pointing. I don't believe that she's accepted his guilt. Who knows what she's told the kids? 

Edited February 5, 2023 by Salacious Kitty

[GeeGolly]

The kids are safe. They'll find out the truth some day and process it in whatever way they can. He's in jail and they know that. When a child loses a parent to death, how they died doesn't matter to them then, the fact they died is already too much to deal with. Same is likely true to the M&Ms. Their dad is in jail and won't live with them for a long time. That's enough for their kid brains to deal with right now.

Harry at age 12 was dealing with a lot. He had a family that pretty much didn't miss a step in living life as usual, that British stiff upper lip. The contrast between how the public mourned his mom and his family (didn't really) mourn his mom was confusing. Hoping his mom was temporarily hiding out helped him make sense of the contrast and helped him deal with losing his mom.

[BetyBee]

Sometimes I think of Josh's stupid proposal to Anna in that restaurant with her parents. She seemed completely surprised by it and I think she was trapped into saying yes. TLC was there filming as well, so they are also culpable. Clearly her parents had approved this and the cameras were rolling. Plus she was young and a fan of the Duggars. Her body language seemed to me that she was pulling away at first, but once she said yes, it switched and she was all in. Remember the disgusting hand sex we were then subjected to? How different her life would have been if she had other options! Her parents are as horrible as JB and Meech. She had baby fever and Josh went along with that, so at least she has her kids. I hope that as the years go by, she learns to stand on her own at least somewhat. Josh's sentence is a reprieve for her, imo. 

[Future Cat Lady]

8 hours ago, Salacious Kitty said:

Anna's last Insta post was indicative of her mindset. It said that there was "more to the story." Given that FF's defense is trying to blame Caleb Williams, I think that's where Anna was pointing. I don't believe that she's accepted his guilt. Who knows what she's told the kids? 

That was months ago. Who knows what her mindset is now. Also, I would not be surprised that she knows he did it, but stands by him anyway. She stood by him after knowing about the molestations and the cheating.

[Scarlett45]

4 hours ago, BetyBee said:

Sometimes I think of Josh's stupid proposal to Anna in that restaurant with her parents. She seemed completely surprised by it and I think she was trapped into saying yes. TLC was there filming as well, so they are also culpable. Clearly her parents had approved this and the cameras were rolling. Plus she was young and a fan of the Duggars. Her body language seemed to me that she was pulling away at first, but once she said yes, it switched and she was all in. Remember the disgusting hand sex we were then subjected to? How different her life would have been if she had other options! Her parents are as horrible as JB and Meech. She had baby fever and Josh went along with that, so at least she has her kids. I hope that as the years go by, she learns to stand on her own at least somewhat. Josh's sentence is a reprieve for her, imo. 

From what I remember, Josh didn’t even ask Anna directly if she wanted to court, he asked her Dad, and her Dad basically told her she was courting Josh. And they were long distance, so she had no clue who he was as a person and was in hook/line/sinker into being fundy royalty. I believe she did want to marry him, not because she was into him, she was a young woman who wanted to have sex, be married, have babies and the STATUS of being a Duggar (and the first Duggar in law) was so tempting. 
 

Compare this to a situation like Joe and Kendra, they lived nearby, Joe asked KENDRA if she wanted to court him, and she seemed genuinely excited to be courting Joe, not just a Duggar. 
 

Anna is standing by Josh primarily for her pride, secondly because she has actual affection for him I think. But only she knows what’s in her head. 

[Nysha]

On 2/2/2023 at 10:03 PM, GeeGolly said:

Personally I don't think the FF is a pedophile. IMO he's a sexual deviant whose unhealthy interest is sex has escalated. Either way he is a creep and a criminal, and behind bars is right where he should be.

All of the images he had were of children, to me that points pretty strongly to pedophilia. I do agree that he is a creep and criminal.

[Notabug]

21 hours ago, Salacious Kitty said:

But they don't know the truth. They know Anna's spin on it. They probably think Daddy will be released soon. Is false hope worse than the truth? 

I think they're going to find out the truth sooner if they go to the prison and visit their father rather than stay back at the Duggar compound where everyone is telling them the same fairytale.  If seeing Smuggar in a jumpsuit behind bars might cause them to question their mother's version of events, it is only to their benefit.

[Zella]

32 minutes ago, Nysha said:

All of the images he had were of children, to me that points pretty strongly to pedophilia. I do agree that he is a creep and criminal.

His victims in the family also got progressively younger and the acts got more brazen. I've always found that very telling. He may not be exclusively a pedophile in that he may experience attraction to people who are not children and I think he is likely attracted to violent sexual encounters regardless of age, but I think pedophile is not an unlikely descriptor based on what we know. 

[satrunrose]

 I wonder if anyone's ever done any research on how the way fundies are raised influences their abilities to distinguish between perfectly typical sexual behaviour; a little weird, but whatever floats your boat; and totally illegal and despicable.

It's always stunned me that people who can loose their crap over cleavage, same-sex hand holding, and pre-marital smooching are the same ones that can describe sexual assault between siblings as a "meh, it happens" thing. (I won't bother to go into the hypocrisy that those of us who participate in same-sex hand holding or support people who do, are debauched hell spawn, but their perv kids are...not...).

[crazycatlady58]

1 hour ago, satrunrose said:

 I wonder if anyone's ever done any research on how the way fundies are raised influences their abilities to distinguish between perfectly typical sexual behaviour; a little weird, but whatever floats your boat; and totally illegal and despicable.

It's always stunned me that people who can loose their crap over cleavage, same-sex hand holding, and pre-marital smooching are the same ones that can describe sexual assault between siblings as a "meh, it happens" thing. (I won't bother to go into the hypocrisy that those of us who participate in same-sex hand holding or support people who do, are debauched hell spawn, but their perv kids are...not...).

I know a lot of fundies who have no problem whatsoever know the difference between typical sexual behavior and assaulting their siblings are anyone else for that matter. 

[satrunrose]

Definitely not trying to make the argument that the poor FF didn't know any better. I am interested in the nature and nurture though. I feel like Josh had a lot of nasty (pedophelic?) predispositions that combined with a lot of highly contradictory attitudes about sexuality and both played some part in this mess.

[merylinkid]

I think the "Oh this happens in a lot of families" is a made up Duggar thing to avoid accountability for not taking it seriously and getting Josh REAL help not their insular church punishment.  Or having a buddy of JB's "talk" to him.   

Josh probably did have these tendencies.   but the failure of his PARENTS to take it seriously and get him some real help from someone who might have got through to him that ACTING on the impulses was wrong is what led to this.  Instead Josh's parents made him do some manual labor for a bit, then still held him up at the Golden Child, heir to the Fundie Throne.   What message does that send to someone?   Oh hey, do what you want because you are special and it will always be covered up in the name of keeping you special.   Until it got to someone that JB couldn't control -- the Feds.

[SMama]

7 minutes ago, merylinkid said:

Until it got to someone that JB couldn't control -- the Feds.

Do you think the outcome would have been different if it was a State case? I think the lack of control bothered JB more than his son getting caught. Kind of kidding. 

[merylinkid]

1 hour ago, SMama said:

Do you think the outcome would have been different if it was a State case? I think the lack of control bothered JB more than his son getting caught. Kind of kidding. 

I think the facade of the perfect family who "just did things a little different" being shown as a fraud bothered him more than FF getting caught.   

State is an I dunno.   The judge would have been more local and probable knew JB.   But, JB is not nearly as powerful as he thinks he is.   Nor as universally loved (or even liked) as he thinks he is.   So it is possible that a state judge would have looked at JB and said "who are you again?"  

[Stevie Nicks]

I've always wondered if FF would have been in a "normal" family (non fundy, non TV, not with a million siblings and more parental attention with caring involved parents) if he would still have been what he became. 

[libgirl2]

17 minutes ago, Stevie Nicks said:

I've always wondered if FF would have been in a "normal" family (non fundy, non TV, not with a million siblings and more parental attention with caring involved parents) if he would still have been what he became. 

It is hard to say, the whole nature vs. nurture argument. Maybe he would have regardless of his upbringing. Somehow I think it is a great possibility he would have anyway. 

[Canadian Girl]

On 1/27/2023 at 8:28 PM, Scarlett45 said:

Josh is a vile awful human. I can believe JB doesn’t like him much (he’s been nothing but an embarrassment for years), but that doesn’t mean he doesn’t love him or won’t take care of him. Many parents try until the very end, even if their kid is a POS.

I could see many parents (not just a JB type) paying the lawyers even if they believed their child was guilty. Lionel Dahmer stood by Jeffrey even though he never denied his guilt or claimed he was innocent. 

My father's brother killed his wife. His defence lawyers contacted EVERYONE in our family they could get ahold of to ask for support, including money, cooperation, letters of support, etc. Every single member of our family declined.