Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[questionfear]

10 minutes ago, mittsigirl said:

Please don't throw rotten tomatoes at me, but I am just a mom, wife and dog nutritionist, my law knowledge comes from Law and Order SUV. Because so much has been said about not having that router to examine, can the router be taken now to be examined, or is that just wishful thinking and it's far too late to bring that in now? And I am just new to learning about the CLOUD, but would there not be any information about what he was accessing stored there? Forgive me for being so dumb:)

Probably not at this point, since it's been almost 2 years AND a federal investigation. The prosecution could argue the defense could have tampered with the router, and the defense could argue there's no way the prosecution is getting anything usable off it from then. Neither side would trust what they found on it most likely. 

[peppergal]

7 minutes ago, mittsigirl said:

Please don't throw rotten tomatoes at me, but I am just a mom, wife and dog nutritionist, my law knowledge comes from Law and Order SUV. Because so much has been said about not having that router to examine, can the router be taken now to be examined, or is that just wishful thinking and it's far too late to bring that in now? And I am just new to learning about the CLOUD, but would there not be any information about what he was accessing stored there? Forgive me for being so dumb:)

Even if the router logs kept data that long (mine only keeps about a rolling 60 day log before it runs out of room and writes over older entries), any data found on the router now could have been altered by anyone in the last 2 years since it was not confiscated and kept under control like the computer was.

As for the cloud, while Windows 10 and newer have default applications running on them that back up data to the cloud (if you pay for the storage), a default Linux installation would not have this.  Yes you could buy a subscription to the compatible cloud of your choice for backup, but that's not something that is there without you intentionally putting it there, and if you are going to go around hunting for bad things on the dark web (or even just use TOR for privacy sake on the legit web), you likely aren't going to intentionally put something on the machine to backup what you are doing.

[mittsigirl]

3 minutes ago, peppergal said:

Even if the router logs kept data that long (mine only keeps about a rolling 60 day log before it runs out of room and writes over older entries), any data found on the router now could have been altered by anyone in the last 2 years since it was not confiscated and kept under control like the computer was.

As for the cloud, while Windows 10 and newer have default applications running on them that back up data to the cloud (if you pay for the storage), a default Linux installation would not have this.  Yes you could buy a subscription to the compatible cloud of your choice for backup, but that's not something that is there without you intentionally putting it there, and if you are going to go around hunting for bad things on the dark web (or even just use TOR for privacy sake on the legit web), you likely aren't going to intentionally put something on the machine to backup what you are doing.

Thanks for explaining it so well:)

5 minutes ago, questionfear said:

Probably not at this point, since it's been almost 2 years AND a federal investigation. The prosecution could argue the defense could have tampered with the router, and the defense could argue there's no way the prosecution is getting anything usable off it from then. Neither side would trust what they found on it most likely. 

Thanks, that makes sense:)

[BitterApple]

My potentially unpopular opinion is that Josh's sibling victims genuinely forgave him and don't want to see him go to jail. Joy is visibly upset in the above pictures, but she's also speaking to her brother. I'm starting to believe the family thinks he's innocent of the CSAM and are there to support. They're wrong, of course, but they're also a bunch of conspiracy theorist Q-anon nutters. They don't live life by the same logic as the rest of us.

Eta: Dammit, I love Anna's dress.

Edited December 6, 2021 by BitterApple

[CouchTater]

This screenshot from The Sun immediately put the Brady Bunch theme song in my head:

"There's a story, of a creep named Duggar, who was busy with a creep of his own..."

[quarks]

1 hour ago, Lindsay Loo Hoo said:

On Josh Duggar's Macbook, it was explained, Transmission was installed in 2017, and was used to download a Hollywood film.

I realize this is the single most minor thing here, by far, but I just want to get this straight: after getting his financial start from television, Josh had the nerve to pirate films?

 

*To be clear I don't care if anyone on this forum pirates films. I'm objecting to the hypocrisy - and the fact that Josh Duggar absolutely could afford the $1.99 to $4.99 it would cost to rent a streaming film. Even the $6.99 to $13.99 to buy it. 

[Ohiopirate02]

19 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

Gotta question - please note my lack of computer knowledge and lack of CSA/porn knowledge and my wildly speculative imagination.

Is it possible Josh was trying to make porn using Amy's images?

I can definitely see Josh placing the illegal files in a folder marked with Amy's name just so he can say "that's not mine. That's Amy's, see her name on the folder." 

Or just using her name as a way to throw off anyone who might stumble upon the pictures normally.  

[Lindsay Loo Hoo]

Michelle Bush continued to talk about command codes and said command lines direct the computer to download apps manually.

She said you can Google them and that she didn't find evidence on the devices or Linux that Josh Duggar did research on command codes.

Gelfand and Bush then discussed Tor further.

Bush said she uses it for added security in her industry, and not for anything illegal

.

Michelle Bush then discussed the uTorrent program.

She said it was used on the partition side of the HP computer.

Bush said it was not on Duggar's iPhone or Macbook and there wasn't evidence it was previously there.

She also did a demonstration on how to download Tor and the torrent program on the HP computer partition side with command codes.

She said she had to Google some command codes, despite her own experience.

Michelle Bush explained the child sexual abuse material was streamed through a VLC video player.

She said it was downloaded in a complex way, by streaming the file in a way she doesn't see in other CSAM cases she works on.

[Churchhoney]

8 minutes ago, quarks said:

I realize this is the single most minor thing here, by far, but I just want to get this straight: after getting his financial start from television, Josh had the nerve to pirate films?

 

*To be clear I don't care if anyone on this forum pirates films. I'm objecting to the hypocrisy - and the fact that Josh Duggar absolutely could afford the $1.99 to $4.99 it would cost to rent a streaming film. Even the $6.99 to $13.99 to buy it. 

Well, hypocrisy and stinginess are kinda right there on the family crest.... 

[Lindsay Loo Hoo]

Michelle Bush then said Linux and Tor were downloaded on May 13.

She tried to rule out remote access but was unable to rule it out without the router to see how secure the network was.

[Tuxcat]

3 minutes ago, Lindsay Loo Hoo said:

Michelle Bush then discussed the uTorrent program.

She said it was used on the partition side of the HP computer.

Bush said it was not on Duggar's iPhone or Macbook and there wasn't evidence it was previously there.

She also did a demonstration on how to download Tor and the torrent program on the HP computer partition side with command codes.

She said she had to Google some command codes, despite her own experience.

I wish they'd stop saying "we didnt find it on the HP side or the phone or the MacBook" That was the intention! 

I am intrigued by the Dell username though.

[GeeGolly]

Oh I dislike it very much when witnesses try to subtly slide in their side's narrative. 

She said she had to Google some command codes, despite her own experience.

[Zella]

1 minute ago, GeeGolly said:

Oh I dislike it very much when witnesses try to subtly slide in their side's narrative. 

She said she had to Google some command codes, despite her own experience.

I feel like that might be a double edged sword for them because she also just gave the jury a preview of what Josh could have done. 

[Tuxcat]

Just now, GeeGolly said:

Oh I dislike it very much when witnesses try to subtly slide in their side's narrative. 

She said she had to Google some command codes, despite her own experience.

Yes and it's router router router. Honestly the jury will be saying "router" in their sleep. Savvy.

[CountryGirl]

10 minutes ago, Lindsay Loo Hoo said:

Bush said it was not on Duggar's iPhone or Macbook and there wasn't evidence it was previously there.

Well, duh!

[Trillium]

So someone maybe could have possibly remote downloaded all the CSAM, and for super lucky Josh was there every single time staying late with customers or texting.  
 

Theres a lot of times that line up, but for me the 5/15 date is the smoking gun. Several files were downloaded ending at 6pm. At 5:58, just as the download is completing, he texts saying he’s going to stay late due to customers. As a juror I could care less about routers. He was there, and planning to stay there just as the downloads finished. 

Edited December 6, 2021 by Trillium

[lascuba]

42 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

Gotta question - please note my lack of computer knowledge and lack of CSA/porn knowledge and my wildly speculative imagination.

Is it possible Josh was trying to make porn using Amy's images?

You mean like revenge porn? Because I can imagine him trying it.

25 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

My potentially unpopular opinion is that Josh's sibling victims genuinely forgave him and don't want to see him go to jail. Joy is visibly upset in the above pictures, but she's also speaking to her brother. I'm starting to believe the family thinks he's innocent of the CSAM and are there to support. They're wrong, of course, but they're also a bunch of conspiracy theorist Q-anon nutters. They don't live life by the same logic as the rest of us.

Eta: Dammit, I love Anna's dress.

Yeah, I've always taken them at their word that they long forgave Josh. 

[Spazamanaz]

7 minutes ago, Madtown said:

Austin looks pissed! 

Who said that this kind of thing happens a lot in fundy families? Was it Jim boob or one of the daughters? And if it does happen a lot in the fundy world, do they all treat it the same, like it's no big deal? I'm just curious to hear your opinions about it.

[Lady Jane]

 

28 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I can definitely see Josh placing the illegal files in a folder marked with Amy's name just so he can say "that's not mine. That's Amy's, see her name on the folder." 

Or just using her name as a way to throw off anyone who might stumble upon the pictures normally.  

We all know Josh, the criminal mastermind who exclaimed, "What? Has someone been downloading child porn?" probably thinks labeling it "THIS IS NOT CHILD HURTCORE STUFF" will keep anyone from looking.

[GeeGolly]

4 minutes ago, lascuba said:

You mean like revenge porn? Because I can imagine him trying it.

Kinda, sorta. Like superimposing her face on a face in a porn film. And then anonymously putting it out onto the internet for others to see.

[Rootbeer]

21 minutes ago, Spazamanaz said:

Austin looks pissed! 

Who said that this kind of thing happens a lot in fundy families? Was it Jim boob or one of the daughters? And if it does happen a lot in the fundy world, do they all treat it the same, like it's no big deal? I'm just curious to hear your opinions about it.

Originally, it was Gothard who said it.  I believe he said it was something like three quarters of all families where there was sexual abuse amongst family members.  Jill quoted that 'statistic' during the Meghan Kelly interview as proof that it was no big deal that her brother fondled her while she slept.

[ChiCricket]

18 hours ago, emmawoodhouse said:

Uncivil Law discusses the Rule 414 (admission of prior acts into evidence). He's not a Duggar expert at all, but he certainly doesn't like Smuggar. 

 

Thanks for this. He talks like a regular person, and for once it made sense (to me, at least.) 

[iwantcookies]

How nice of JB to buy Anna a new dress and new shoes. 
 

 

[Dianaofthehunt]

Is there a bullet-point wrap-up of today’s doings in court? I prefer not to visit the Sun’s website.

[Tuxcat]

6 minutes ago, Dianaofthehunt said:

Is there a bullet-point wrap-up of today’s doings in court? I prefer not to visit the Sun’s website.

 @Lindsay Loo Hoo has posted all the Sun updates in this thread. Scroll through or click her user name and then "see activity" and it will list all her posts.

 

 

[emmawoodhouse]

Just now, Tuxcat said:

 @Lindsay Loo Hoo has posted all the Sun updates in this thread. Scroll through or click her user name and then "see activity" and it will list all her posts.

 

 

She hasn't posted since the lunch break.

[Jeanne222]

3 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

My fear is during deliberations, a juror may label themselves an expert and advise others, but is actually no expert at all.

My fear is that most of these jurors have no idea at all what’s being discussed. 
 

On a scale of 1-10 one being the lowest I’m maybe a 3.  Only because I can figure things out. Most is my friends are a 1. Not a clue about anything. 
 

These are NOT a jury of his peers.   I’d bet more than half have no idea what the expert witnesses are talking about!

In other trials regarding say medical you can more or less figure it out but this tech/web stuff is beyond comprehension!

[Lady Whistleup]

There's real pain on Joy and Austins faces.

[emmawoodhouse]

I wonder what Joy said to Smuggar in the courtroom after Bobye Holt's damning testimony?

[AmosTheAardvark]

2 hours ago, Zella said:

I'm not seeing a lot of commentary on Josh having VLC player, but that tells me he watches a lot of something online. It's not my preferred media player, but it will play files that elude the one I prefer (PowerDVD). It doesn't mean you are watching anything disgusting, but people with the alleged lack of tech knowledge his defense is claiming he had don't have VLC on their computer, imo. 

I used it a lot about 15 years ago, when I was torrenting movies (regular movies!)  It can play anything, all formats.

[emmawoodhouse]

3 minutes ago, Jeanne222 said:

My fear is that most of these jurors have no idea at all what’s being discussed. 
 

On a scale of 1-10 one being the lowest I’m maybe a 3.  Only because I can figure things out. Most is my friends are a 1. Not a clue about anything. 
 

These are NOT a jury of his peers.   I’d bet more than half have no idea what the expert witnesses are talking about!

In other trials regarding say medical you can more or less figure it out but this tech/web stuff is beyond comprehension!

All this bullshit about routers and codes can be put aside when you look at the prosecution's timelines that put Smuggar in front of the computer when the material was downloaded. 

[mittsigirl]

From the Sun-

https://www.the-sun.com/entertainment/4214458/josh-duggar-guardian-hannah-reber-real-men-trial/?rec_article=true

[Dimi1]

...all I need to see is the fact that Josh has no remorse nor regret...just arrogance...and on at least joy and jills faces...I see pain and trauma...Jessa I think is in denial...

[Jeanne222]

1 hour ago, Trillium said:

So someone maybe could have possibly remote downloaded all the CSAM, and for super lucky Josh was there every single time staying late with customers or texting.  
 

Theres a lot of times that line up, but for me the 5/15 date is the smoking gun. Several files were downloaded ending at 6pm. At 5:58, just as the download is completing, he texts saying he’s going to stay late due to customers. As a juror I could care less about routers. He was there, and planning to stay there just as the downloads finished. 

I’m curious. Are the jurors aware Anna was monitoring Josh?

[mittsigirl]

[Trillium]

15 minutes ago, emmawoodhouse said:

I wonder what Joy said to Smuggar in the courtroom after Bobye Holt's damning testimony?

He said something to her, no reports I read said she said something to him.  I’m sure his lawyers told him to. Whatever it was, it was likely insincere bullshit.  

Edited December 6, 2021 by Trillium

[Madtown]

2 hours ago, Tuxcat said:

From Carrie Jernigan's lunchtime live she said a few things to note. Number one, her impression is that the family is all close and that there didn't seem to be any ill will toward Josh even after the Holt testimony. Of course that's just her impression. Hard to tell. They all sat on the front row. She said Mrs. Holt cried several times and said she didn't want to testify and that she still loves Josh. She also mentioned the "money" thing but it seems that Holt was referring to "in the past" - probably tabloids.

 

2 hours ago, BitterApple said:

My potentially unpopular opinion is that Josh's sibling victims genuinely forgave him and don't want to see him go to jail. Joy is visibly upset in the above pictures, but she's also speaking to her brother. I'm starting to believe the family thinks he's innocent of the CSAM and are there to support. They're wrong, of course, but they're also a bunch of conspiracy theorist Q-anon nutters. They don't live life by the same logic as the rest of us.

 

Personally, I truly believe Joy, Austin, Derick, Jessa and everyone else that is there, is there to support Josh. Maybe it's just all I have read and seen from this family. They probably believe that satan made him do this or the girls are at fault. I also think like others that maybe JB and MEchelle told them they need to go.

I know it seems Austin is pissed and it makes me question why he would want Joy anywhere near Josh or that family after hearing what he's heard. I guess I just don't get any of this and it's mind boggling to me that any of these victims would want themselves or kids anywhere near that house or Josh.

I think Bobye Holt's testimony was damning, but the fact she said she still loves Josh, shows me how screwed up this whole family/Gothard crap is.

[Jeanne222]

Why no JimBob and Michelle at trial?

I swear this whole Dugger clan IS like a cult. 

I think the whole mess of them have been sipping the Kool Aide!

I do believe the whole tribe of them are there supporting this man that’s into horrible Child Pornography  so  bad I’m scared to death I’ll catch a glimpse of it!

I always thought when posters called them fundies and laughed at their ways just leave them alone!

I’m not laughing or thinking like that right now. If they excuse and support Josh after all we know I’m scared to death for all the children in this family!

[SnapHappy]

I'm actually loving Amy's venom, no matter how thirsty she is for attention.  And the shade she threw at Laura?  Niiiiiice.  

[Ohiopirate02]

28 minutes ago, Jeanne222 said:

I’m curious. Are the jurors aware Anna was monitoring Josh?

One of the prosecution witnesses last week is employed by Covenant Eyes so the jury should be aware.  

[Nysha]

18 minutes ago, Madtown said:

I think Bobye Holt's testimony was damning, but the fact she said she still loves Josh, shows me how screwed up this whole family/Gothard crap is.

I wouldn't read too much into Bobye saying she still loves Josh. These people say they "love" LGBTQ+ people, also, they just hate their "sin" and we all know that isn't true. Bobye's religion requires her to publically love her fellow xtians, even those she hates/despises/are disgusted by.

[wilsie]

I can't know whether Bobye Holt loves Josh or not but I'm thinking she's very grateful that her daughter didn't marry him and isn't dealing with what Anna has for the last 10 plus years.  I also think that if Josh gets off there will be no stopping Jim Bob.  That terrifies me.

[emmawoodhouse]

10 minutes ago, wilsie said:

I can't know whether Bobye Holt loves Josh or not but I'm thinking she's very grateful that her daughter didn't marry him and isn't dealing with what Anna has for the last 10 plus years.  I also think that if Josh gets off there will be no stopping Jim Bob.  That terrifies me.

I saw another written account that describes Smuggar as "red faced and sweating" during Bobye's testimony. I don't know how she could still love him,but his body language said that he's over her. 

[GeeGolly]

The defense is really pushing remote access.

[wilsie]

8 minutes ago, emmawoodhouse said:

I saw another written account that describes Smuggar as "red faced and sweating" during Bobye's testimony. I don't know how she could still love him,but his body language said that he's over her. 

I don't think Josh is capable of loving anyone.

[CandyCaneTree]

6 minutes ago, wilsie said:

I don't think Josh is capable of loving anyone.

He's able to love himself only. 

[MamaR]

47 minutes ago, SnapHappy said:

I'm actually loving Amy's venom, no matter how thirsty she is for attention.  And the shade she threw at Laura?  Niiiiiice.  

Where was that? I think I missed it somewhere.  

[ChiCricket]

4 hours ago, Lindsay Loo Hoo said:

In the case of the Linux partition in question, it had TOR, a torrent program, and VLC installed.

Gelfand's possible argument could be that Josh Duggar had used Transmission in the past, and he could be trying to question what the reasoning would be for Duggar to download other similar programs with the same goal.

Please tell me I'm not the only one (very) lost at some of this computer stuff. 

And I consider myself fairly informed on technology, but dog-forbid they have someone on the jury like my technophobe sister.

I'm pretty sure at least one jury member's head is spinning with all this info,  right?  (just me?) 😁 

[Ijustwantsomechips]

That’s a nice suit Smuggar had on today. He’s still a fat fuck though.   

Fun fact: The name “Smuggar” now auto populates on my phone 😁

[emmawoodhouse]

13 minutes ago, CandyCaneTree said:

He's able to love himself only. 

I doubt that. He IS a selfish prick, but I don't think he loves himself. He's all about self-gratification.