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Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

maraleia

By maraleia
in Counting On

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CandyCaneTree

CandyCaneTree

2 minutes ago, BigBingerBro said:

Don't the Duggars at the TTH conduct their own in-home church services with Boob being the leader?   I thought they occasionally allowed outside guests.

If they still do it Smuggar the pedo isn't allowed any where near the tinker toy house. 

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hoosier80
hoosier80

New show title: 10 to 20 Years and Counting 

MargeGunderson
MargeGunderson

Someone on Reddit just described Josh’s face as a glistening glazed ham. I am considering divorcing my husband and marrying that poster. 

doodlebug
doodlebug

Well, for many of us, it's the difference between 'imperfect' and 'non-PC' and being a criminal.  Josh is a child molester and his parents actively intervened in his situation to avoid him being punis

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Absolom

Absolom

11 minutes ago, BigBingerBro said:

Don't the Duggars at the TTH conduct their own in-home church services with Boob being the leader?   I thought they occasionally allowed outside guests.

They quit that years ago.  They were going to the Caldwell church until there was a falling out and now they go to a different IFB church.

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GeeGolly

GeeGolly

2 minutes ago, emmawoodhouse said:

The Duggars, Joy, Jed, and maybe some of the other adult children attend Gospel Light Baptist. Remember that big outing at the baseball game when Katey announced her pregnancy? That was a Gospel Light get together. 

No family support for Ben's church, I guess.

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Churchhoney

Churchhoney

(edited)
1 hour ago, Absolom said:

Where can Josh go to church if he can't be around other peoples' children?

Maybe there's some local church that only has senior citizens left in it......😁 There seem to be one or two of those around in most places...

But I expect Josh is passing on church these days. And glad of it. .

23 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

No family support for Ben's church, I guess.

As far as I can tell, Bin's church is currently pretty much entirely a virtual institution that podcasts sermons. 

There is a building. And they advertise one live Sunday service at 10:30 am.  But beyond that, the whole time he's been there I've never seen their website or their Facebook page say anything except -- "No events scheduled" and "Go here to listen to sermons online." 

Hard to see how that's anything but a church that largely folded a few years ago but that some people are still supporting virtually -- either in hopes of somehow seeing those sermons attract some people who'll clamor for the place to become real again.....or just while waiting for an opportunity to sell the building or for their remaining core congregation to die off or all move into nursing homes. 

Possibly they're holding out until they can sell the building to another congregation whose beliefs they approve of. That seems to happen fairly commonly, when there isn't a mortgage on the building or a whole lot of repairs needed or whatever. 

A few years ago there were one or two local arts/religious groups apparently renting space in the building. There were photos online of some events being held, such as a concert. But it looks to me like they may not have any renters now. Definitely haven't seen any pictures of people doing stuff in the building in the past couple years, although I guess somebody might rent office space there or something. 

When it comes to the Duggs, they seem to be pretty picky about which churches they'll attend. They want ones that are congenial to themselves -- and maybe they want ones that seem to have more people and activities, too. Bin's church may be one of those ones that mainly has a only a dwindling core of senior citizens remaining. That probably wouldn't be Duggar friendly. 

The church building that Jer's plant church moved into in Laredo just before he left was a Presbyterian church whose congregation had dwindled to near nothing. But they kept the building for quite some time, even though it was mostly empty or entirely empty until Grace Community Church San Antonio (with whom they at least shared Calvinist theology), which had planted the church Jer preached at, decided it was time -- and, I assume, pulled together the funding -- to buy an actual church building. 

 

Edited by Churchhoney
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Zella

Zella

16 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

I seem to recall the judge saying that Josh was allowed to attend church (with Anna). Anyone else remember that?

You are correct that the judge did include church in the things he could leave the house for. But the rule about not being around minors applied, which makes me think that, for all practical purposes, church was a no. I don't see Josh crying himself to sleep over that, but I could see other people in the family thinking it's a grave injustice. 

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emmawoodhouse

emmawoodhouse

Lots of Duggar minors (especially girls) at Gospel Light Baptist. I assume Anna also attends there with her own brood. 

If I had to guess, given Mr. Reber's history in prison ministry, he probably does bible studies at home with a very sullen Smuggar. 

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Zella

Zella

10 minutes ago, emmawoodhouse said:

If I had to guess, given Mr. Reber's history in prison ministry, he probably does bible studies at home with a very sullen Smuggar. 

I suspect you're right, and the mental image I have of it made me laugh harder than I should have. 

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sagittarius sue

sagittarius sue

17 minutes ago, emmawoodhouse said:

Lots of Duggar minors (especially girls) at Gospel Light Baptist. I assume Anna also attends there with her own brood. 

If I had to guess, given Mr. Reber's history in prison ministry, he probably does bible studies at home with a very sullen Smuggar. 

Let's have a discussion on Matthew 23:27: 'Woe unto you…for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness'.

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Cinnabon

Cinnabon

1 hour ago, Zella said:

You are correct that the judge did include church in the things he could leave the house for. But the rule about not being around minors applied, which makes me think that, for all practical purposes, church was a no. I don't see Josh crying himself to sleep over that, but I could see other people in the family thinking it's a grave injustice. 

PeRsEcUtiOn!

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Zella

Zella

7 minutes ago, crazycatlady58 said:

Ans next week we will discuss: Luke 17:2.. It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into tge sea, than he should offend one of these little ones.

And the week after, they can cover Matthew 5:29-30:

"If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell."

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irisheyes

irisheyes

(edited)
3 hours ago, Zella said:

You are correct that the judge did include church in the things he could leave the house for. But the rule about not being around minors applied, which makes me think that, for all practical purposes, church was a no. I don't see Josh crying himself to sleep over that, but I could see other people in the family thinking it's a grave injustice. 

He could always attend an adult Bible study that occurs outside of service times. But, I doubt he’s even made the attempt. 
 

ETA: The pastor of the church may have discouraged him from attending publicly as well. Most churches don’t want it getting out that you have an accused pedophile who is awaiting trial for downloading CP attending events, even if there are no minors. 

Edited by irisheyes
Cause grammar is a thing. And I didn’t attend SOTDRT.
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Tabbygirl521

Tabbygirl521

On 11/12/2021 at 6:34 PM, Churchhoney said:

I can't decide whether I think think Anna's got any kind of realistic view of all this or not. On one hand, it seems impossible that she doesn't. ....

But on the other, she's a person who I think seems to have once bought completely into the Gothardy idea that since she spent her childhood and youth trying to be super-good, and didn't behave like those brazen unChristian girls who date and chase a bunch of boys, her godly parents and Josh's godly parents and God himself all got together and gave her the prince of her dreams, Josh.....And I don't know how long or how much she's clung to that vision of her life, but I think she once invested in it very heavily -- and we still see her touted as Gothardy role model for young women and teen girls -- so she must at least be talking some of that game still....

So if you bought into that vision wholeheartedly once and tried to keep it up for quite a while -- what do you do if you're forced to look at and accept the absolute horror of what Josh went way out of his way to look at for pleasure, and the reality that if law enforcement hadn't stopped it he'd almost certainly still be doing it, and that this family of seven kids that you've followed all the rules to create may now be without its father -- the most important person in the family, according to all this stuff she's bought all these years.... 

She still talks the fundie/Gothard game and teaches it to her kids and role models it to Gothard teen girls.....but how does she does she reconcile the fact that four highly respected adults in that world and God himself all told her as an innocent young girl that Josh was her prince and her umbrella of protection for life, the umbrella of protection for the many babies she was supposed to have.....

How would you reconcile all that stuff if you'd bought it for so long? Could you still hold those four parents in esteem? And what about God? Was he showing bad judgment in choosing Josh as the reward for a young girl who'd been obeying all the crazy Gothard laws? 

It seems to me so likely that there's a lot of stuff in her head that has to be really hard to reconcile with the full truth here. So what do you do when you face so many painful contradictions? It just seems to me that most of us would really struggle with denial and deep confusion and intense emotions -- and then trying to communicate things accurately and usefully to all those little kids......

It's true she's already had to explain some things to them about his absence -- but that'll be nothing to explain and cope with compared to what they'll all face if he gets convicted and goes away to another state for years......

I don't know enough about her to even have an opinion about her balance of realism and delusion at this points. Perfectly possible that she's completely realistic and has been for years so it's no biggie and she'll cope with it easily....But complete denial also seems possible to me....

I suspect they all believe that God (or is it Satan?) is sending all these trials and tribulations specifically to test their faith. This is the club that keeps them from questioning anything or drawing conclusions that most sane people would at least entertain. 

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merylinkid

merylinkid

13 hours ago, emmawoodhouse said:

Lots of Duggar minors (especially girls) at Gospel Light Baptist. I assume Anna also attends there with her own brood. 

If I had to guess, given Mr. Reber's history in prison ministry, he probably does bible studies at home with a very sullen Smuggar. 

NOW that is a punishment I can get behind.   "If you are going to live here Josh, you must participate in 1 hour of bible study every day and 3 hours on Sunday.   Or I tell the parole officer you aren't following the conditions of your release."   Bwahahahahahaha.  

Not that 1) Josh will learn a damn thing and 2) they are actually teaching him anything than he is the most wonderful person in the world because he loves the correct Jesus and this is all a test.  

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GeeGolly

GeeGolly

4 hours ago, BigBingerBro said:

Josh Duggar’s Trial: Customers Outline Shady Business Practices at Car Lot

I have no doubt the Duggars are shady, but the author of that article doesn't understand the wholesale car business. Its really a one man show. Any "employees" Josh had, likely only moved cars from one place to another. Wholesale car lots aren't open 9 - 5 or 9 - 8 like retail lots. I was actually surprise it had a 'building' on the lot. Wholesalers spend much of their time finding cars to buy and eventually sell and most deals are made over the phone, with a quick meeting to do paperwork and pick up the car.

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crazycatlady58

crazycatlady58

14 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

I have no doubt the Duggars are shady, but the author of that article doesn't understand the wholesale car business. Its really a one man show. Any "employees" Josh had, likely only moved cars from one place to another. Wholesale car lots aren't open 9 - 5 or 9 - 8 like retail lots. I was actually surprise it had a 'building' on the lot. Wholesalers spend much of their time finding cars to buy and eventually sell and most deals are made over the phone, with a quick meeting to do paperwork and pick up the car.

Yes, and any car I have bought was sold ' as is' when you drive it off the lot it is yours for good or bad. Should they return customers phone calls..yes..should they make sure the vehicle is in good condition..yes but when you buy a used vehicle you are taking a chance. Always have someone who knows cars look at it before you buy it. 

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GeeGolly

GeeGolly

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How did Joy put it?

Anna only has a few more Tuesdays before Josh is gone. These days may not always be easy, but soon they'll be gone. #makingmemories #scumbaghusband #7kidsandnomorecounting #realhousewifeofjailbird

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Cinnabon

Cinnabon

3 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

How did Joy put it?

Anna only has a few more Tuesdays before Josh is gone. These days may not always be easy, but soon they'll be gone. #makingmemories #scumbaghusband #7kidsandnomorecounting #realhousewifeofjailbird

This is exactly the way they think hashtags should be used! They don’t understand them, just like many other things.

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Quilt Fairy

Quilt Fairy

37 minutes ago, BigBingerBro said:

DESPERATE FOR DEFENSE Josh Duggar hires new lawyer ahead of child pornography trial after disgraced star denies plea deal

The folks on reddit are saying that this is a guy who specializes in appeals.  He works at the same firm as Josh's main lawyer.   

I view it the same way Casey Anthony's legal team brought in someone who handled death penalty cases - although obviously that wasn't necessary in the end. 

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Rootbeer

Rootbeer

38 minutes ago, Quilt Fairy said:

The folks on reddit are saying that this is a guy who specializes in appeals.  He works at the same firm as Josh's main lawyer.   

I view it the same way Casey Anthony's legal team brought in someone who handled death penalty cases - although obviously that wasn't necessary in the end. 

Yeah, it is not unusual for big law firms to send specialists to assist their lead attorney at big trials.  Adding this guy who will comb through every word to find grounds to appeal a conviction is going to cost a bundle.  Keep adding those fees, boys.

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quarks

quarks

Also, as we now know, the Arkansas attorneys - Travis Story and Gregory Payne - were unable to keep Witness 2, Joshua Williams, out of jail. They aren't similar cases as far as I can tell, but I do think it's an added incentive for the Missouri attorneys and Josh to bring in another attorney. 

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Zella

Zella

Just reading between the lines, but is it reasonable to assume that they wouldn't be bringing in the fourth attorney if they were planning to do a last-minute plea? I'm interpreting it as a concrete sign they do intend to go to trial, but I'm just guessing. 

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quarks

quarks

12 minutes ago, Zella said:

Just reading between the lines, but is it reasonable to assume that they wouldn't be bringing in the fourth attorney if they were planning to do a last-minute plea? I'm interpreting it as a concrete sign they do intend to go to trial, but I'm just guessing. 

Maybe?

But I think it's more likely that the lead Missouri attorney, who does seem to have his act together, is just preparing for all eventualities, including not being able to convince his client that pleading guilty would at the very least save Josh some money. 

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Zella

Zella

(edited)
1 minute ago, quarks said:

Maybe?

But I think it's more likely that the lead Missouri attorney, who does seem to have his act together, is just preparing for all eventualities, including not being able to convince his client that pleading guilty would at the very least save Josh some money. 

That makes sense. He may also have become quite disillusioned with his co-counsel in light of recent revelations and wants more reliable backup. LOL

Edited by Zella
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hathorlive

hathorlive

On 11/12/2021 at 6:26 PM, 3 is enough said:

Tick tock, tick tock.  18 days until the trial begins.  Wonder how much of a damper that will put on Thanksgiving?

Thank you for keeping track.  I'm in Aa time vortex and can't keep my days straight.

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FizzyPuff

FizzyPuff

5 hours ago, BigBingerBro said:

DESPERATE FOR DEFENSE Josh Duggar hires new lawyer ahead of child pornography trial after disgraced star denies plea deal

Josh’s legal team responded by claiming the molestation may have not occurred. 

Urgh that makes me mad! 🤬 we all know he touched his sisters, I know this is not about what he did to them when he was a child but just reading that makes me mad. I’m aware his lawyers have to defend him but urgh 🤮, I can’t wait for that sicko to be behind bars.

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emmawoodhouse

emmawoodhouse

(edited)
33 minutes ago, FizzyPuff said:

Josh’s legal team responded by claiming the molestation may have not occurred. 

Urgh that makes me mad! 🤬 we all know he touched his sisters, I know this is not about what he did to them when he was a child but just reading that makes me mad. I’m aware his lawyers have to defend him but urgh 🤮, I can’t wait for that sicko to be behind bars.

The defense's claim is that the police report was SO WELL REDACTED that people CAN'T be identified. 😂😂😂😂😂

Edited by emmawoodhouse
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GeeGolly

GeeGolly

15 minutes ago, FizzyPuff said:

Josh’s legal team responded by claiming the molestation may have not occurred. 

Urgh that makes me mad! 🤬 we all know he touched his sisters, I know this is not about what he did to them when he was a child but just reading that makes me mad. I’m aware his lawyers have to defend him but urgh 🤮, I can’t wait for that sicko to be behind bars.

Wow. Some lawyering is just bizarre. Saying the molestations didn't happen is calling their own client a liar. Josh admitted it 20 years ago, more than once and he admitted it about 5 years ago as well.

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quarks

quarks

2 hours ago, emmawoodhouse said:

@quarks, have you seen the judge's writ allowing the testimony of the material witness? This is the fellow who appears to have been incarcerated at the same time Smuggar was held last spring. 

I didn't see the actual writ, but I did see reports about it.

(For those catching up, this is slightly more complicated than the usual subpoena since this particular material witness, Robert Franklin, is currently in jail, so the judge had to sign off on sending out law enforcement officers to escort him from jail to the trial. It's not clear exactly what he's supposed to be testifying about.)

Regarding the claim about the molestations - that's a misreading of what the defense argued in their motion. They didn't say that the molestations didn't occur. They said - correctly - that Josh wasn't convicted or even indicted on those charges, which means these are legally still just alleged molestations. The defense is arguing that because legally these are just alleged molestations, they can't be entered into evidence unless the jury can treat these allegations the same way they are treating the current charges - that is, with evidence and witnesses and so on for the prior molestations. Which essentially means running mini trials within the main trial - on charges that fall under Arkansas state jurisdiction, not federal jurisdiction.

So, no, they aren't calling their own client, Josh Duggar, a liar, which is a distinct step up from previously suggesting that their own client, Joshua Williams, could have committed this particular crime.

 

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emmawoodhouse

emmawoodhouse

(edited)
11 hours ago, iwantcookies said:

Anna only has a few more Tuesdays to get pregnant again. 
 

 

Well, according to Gothard, they can't have sex for 80 days after the birth of a girl. Smuggar could be put away by then. 

Edited by emmawoodhouse
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Churchhoney

Churchhoney

11 hours ago, emmawoodhouse said:

@quarks, have you seen the judge's writ allowing the testimony of the material witness? This is the fellow who appears to have been incarcerated at the same time Smuggar was held last spring. 

Argh. I was hoping there wouldn't be anybody like that. On some juries I've been on, witness testimony from people like this has been a wide-open door for everybody's reasonable doubt. When a jailhouse snitch says exactly what the prosecution wants to hear....or the defendant's younger sister testifies to exactly what the defendant wants to hear....you immediately start to wonder what's in it for that person and scrutinize their demeanor and feel skeptical about them. That's the kind of conversation that can go on for hours in the jury room and make everybody skeptical of everything. 

 

11 hours ago, emmawoodhouse said:

The defense's claim is that the police report was SO WELL REDACTED that people CAN'T be identified. 😂😂😂😂😂

Well that proves it. Irony is definitely dead. 

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