Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[BitterApple]

In the Gothard literature he blames women for any sexual abuse they experience and explicitly states they may have given the wrong signal through their immodest dress. He also encourages forgiving the abuser. Michelle is following this model to the letter.

[JennyMominFL]

Is this going to get CPS involved? Wouldn't they be concerned for the welfare of the kids living in the house?

Edited May 21, 2015 by JennyMominFL

[Wellfleet]

Well, I live in a very small town (think, "Mayberry, RFD"). They put the fear of God in him (or whatever you choose to believe in).  They finger printed him, although I'm pretty sure those fingerprints went in the trash after we left, and told him to stay on the straight and narrow from now on; they had their eye on him.  The other kid's mom didn't do anything to him.  That boy is not doing well today, I'm sorry to say, due to some bad choices he made later in life.

 

Kudos to you for acting as your child's parent - and not his best friend. Makes all the difference in the world. Well, according to this childless teacher anyway. You must be so proud of your USAF Captain-son. Please pass on my thanks for his service... :>)  

[ilovetrashtv]

It was not stated in a  or attested to in a court of law. It was a police report, that is not evidence of anything. 

He was never charged in a court of law or convicted of anything.

What country do you people live in?

For all we know he played doctor and daddy overreacted. No action was taken. 

 

Just because you're not charged in a court of law doesn't mean you're not guilty! I don't think he was "playing doctor" on SLEEPING girls.

[Adiba]

Holy crap. Just read some of the report and I feel sick to my stomach for the victims. I didn't want to jump to any conclusions before, but this looks bad. It actually makes more sense that it was allegedly his sisters whom he molested, because of their isolation and accessibility. Also, not to defend Josh, but he was a 14 year old kid raised in an incredibly repressed and screwed up ( imo) environment--can't help feeling for him a little bit, too.

[Isthisok]

Also, anyone want to give odds on a Josh Divorce? I'm at 75% Anna will leave. Maybe not right now, but within a year or two. She needs to protect her kids.

Also Ironic that the 'church elders' Jim Bob likely consulted was predator Gothard. Who else could it have been. The Holy Homechurch is under no authority.

Maybe Joe will get tossed out of Crown too....I can see this wrecking basically everything. Bin will need to find a job...etc....etc. It might also be why Derrick went right back to work.

EDIT: Also, this explain the new Amy Rift. There goes her show, too.

I know divorce is so frowned upon in these groups, but I think Anna just might be a good enough mom to do it. She'd be able to support herself just by writing some Gothard divorcee self-help books.

[JoanArc]

The girl's nightmare hasn't totally hit me yet (it will, when I'm alone), but dang, they'll be left with nothing after being victims and sistermoms or years. If ANYONE deserved a crowdfund it's Josh victims. Therapy aint cheap, nor is raising yourself after the fact.

[ilovetrashtv]

Also, anyone want to give odds on a Josh Divorce? I'm at 75% Anna will leave. Maybe not right now, but within a year or two. She needs to protect her kids.

 

 

There's no chance Anna will leave... she'll say something about how she forgives him, and they found God through this whole thing and blah blah blah

[Aw my lahgs]

Poor Anna and M1, M2, M3 and M4 on the way (what a mess will she be born into!)... Poor little Ms.

[Seashell Lover]

Why would Boob and Clown Car be concerned about Smuggar getting help we all know according to them it is the girls fault because the girls tempted Smuggar. 

[MilkMachine]

No matter how fucked up and sexually repressed Josh's parents raised him to be, there are legions of young men who grow up in similar circumstances and don't commit abuse. The fact that it happened multiple times with multiple victims doesn't sound like "sexually repressed teen acting out" to me. Sounds like strwight up pedophilia. One of the victims may have been as young as 8? Pubescent boys are not attracted to pre-pubescent girls.

I know sisters who were abused in a similar fashion by their brother. They were told that rehabilitation was very rare and there was a high likelihood their brother would eventually abuse his own daughter. It would take a lot for Anna to leave in their culture, but I hope she has the courage to get the hell out of dodge for her daughter's sake.

[Seashell Lover]

Well Smuggar it is back to the used car lot a perfect job for you as all used car dealers the ones who are buy here pay here are slime.

[galax-arena]

Sounds like strwight up pedophilia. One of the victims may have been as young as 8? Pubescent boys are not attracted to pre-pubescent girls.

You're conflating child molestation with pedophilia. The two things are not always synonymous. Abuse is largely about power, not sexual attraction. And a lot of abuse is opportunistic, meaning that the abuser will go after whoever is readily available. Among these IFB/Gothard types, that usually translates to a lot of sibling abuse.

 

I mean, men who molest boys aren't necessarily gay, either.

Edited May 21, 2015 by galax-arena

[Literata]

It would take a lot for Anna to leave in their culture, but I hope she has the courage to get the hell out of dodge for her daughter's sake.

 

I just don't see that happening. She's under Josh's "headship," and she'll stand by him. I'd like to see the Kellers get involved, but they won't; "ownership" of Anna was traded from Mike Keller to Smuggar, and in their culture, I don't think it's even possible for a father to get involved once the daughter's not "his" anymore.

[JennyMominFL]

I really hope Anna has kept a close eye on McKynzie. But why would she when Mack is with her dad. I'm sorry tto say it but I would be concenred if I were here. And now they are having another girl.  Poor Anna. And screw you Jim Bob for bringing Anna into this as an innocent young girl. No wonder Michelle can't look at her. Imagine the guilt?

No wonder Michelle looks and acts drugged. She probably is

[Bingermin]

I hated Boob and Mechelle before.....now? Whole new level of hate. Hate isn't even the right word, disgusted is better. My daughter is my child, I love her and I take an interest in what she loves and I make an effort to know what's she's into so we can talk about it. Being a guy I always had sports to connect with my father so it was easy and mother's just have a connection with kids that's usually universal. Being a father to a daughter I want her to connect with me and know I'm here for her. The Duggar's kids are just statistics. Plain and simple. Why bother with the names when a number would have been enough? 

 

These "parents" don't know anything about their kids other than they're the reason why the bank account is fat. Josh is slimy but he deserved help not to be swept aside. The girls? They should band together and just blow the roof off of everything now. Why pretend now? I understand about keeping things private but here's a chance to finally get the help you sorely need. Bottling things up and pretending they never happened NEVER works. These kids have been programmed since birth to be mindless drones this might be the kick in the pants they need to finally do something to help themselves out. Damaged goods? Hardly. They had no choice because their asshole parents put themselves before everything even God! Never once do they ever say we raised our kids to do this and that, it's always trained. You train a puppy you raise a child. Just because you can have children doesn't mean you should.   

[JoanArc]

Page 19 lists a dvd of 1020 hours of interviews, along with a transcript. Is that a lot? EDIT: that's the time of day, not the length. Whew! but still, there's video of it somewhere. This whole thing is terrible.

 

Edit: The incest also makes me squick out when Josh said he married Anna because Anna reminds him of Michelle. :(

Edited May 21, 2015 by JoanArc

[birkenstock]

My heart hurts for the Duggar girls. On top of having to take over as mothers to their siblings, they were emotionally and physically abused. Their emotional needs have been discounted for years.  I can't fathom why they allowed Josh anywhere near the girls after finding out - he's been filmed alone in the car with Jana and others.  

Jana and Jinger have been shipped off to help Anna with the kids since Josh and Anna moved to DC. I wonder if Jim Bob and Michelle felt that since Josh was married they wouldn't have to worry about Josh. 

I wonder if Jill was the one who told since Josh said that she was a snitch in the "All about Jill" special. The camera people being around has served as an extra layer of protection for them. Everything makes more sense and yet I just feel awful for the kids.  How could Jim Bob and Michelle continue to travel as much as they did (and still do) without the kids.  I thought they were horrible parents before, this is just infuriating.  

[Jellybeans]

I have very messed feelings about this.

First of all, this is a 14 year old boy with sex-obsessed parents we are talking about. Not Josh, the man.

[roseslg]

This is the lead story on TMZ.   Not that I watch TMZ regularly, but....

[BitterApple]

Page 19 lists a dvd of 1020 hours of interviews, along with a transcipt. Is that a lot? This whole thing is terrible.

Edit: The incest also makes me squick out when Josh said he married Anna because Anna reminds him of Michelle. :(

I wonder if 1020 refers to 10 hours 20 minutes. That would make more sense than 1,020 hours of interviews.

[Kcat1971]

A couple more pieces of the puzzle.  As I read the witness narratives- only #9 & #10 claim actual inappropriate contact on themselves.  #17 describes an over the clothes contact that occurred while asleep but makes it sound like not a big deal. 

 

#7 is a narrative that describes Josh's confession- filling in the blanks it sounds like Amy was over the Duggar house babysitting and Josh touched her while she was asleep.  Amy describes it as she though he was getting a blanket or maybe even putting a blanket on her.  Josh ended up confessing to touching her breasts and later admitted to also touching __, ___ & ___ about the same time and then at a later time ____.   #7 does not appear to claim to be a victim.  Sounds fairly articulate.

 

#8 also does not claim to be a victim and uses words like "moral issues" and immoral.  This person was only shown a female drawing- so it seems likely to be a female.

 

The description of the initial incident with Amy really does sound like something being made out of nothing.  Harmlessly touch Amy while he put a blanket on her while she slept and possibly it being made into a big deal, to the point of even a forced confession to the family.  But #9 & #10 worry me because they imply genital fondling.  

[Jellybeans]

This family is so mess up I wonder if they know what is inappropriate touching is. A frontal hug is inappropriate for example.

[BitterApple]

Is there any indication any of the boys were victims? I read through most of the police report but not all of the victim interviews.

In all honesty I don't know how the family is going to move past this. I doubt the Howlers knew the full details of the allegations but they're all old enough now to understand what it means. It's safe to say Josh is done at the FRC. So what does he do now? Go back to selling used cars and hanging out at the TTH? THAT won't be awkward at all....

Jellybeans, I said something similar about Jill and motherhood on the Dill thread. Their beliefs about sexuality and relationships are so skewed they have no concept between normal and abnormal. Throw in their religious beliefs and hyper sexual parents and it's no wonder Josh went all Flowers In the Attic once he hit puberty.

Edited May 21, 2015 by BitterApple

[CofCinci]

That bedroom in the garage that Ben moved into --- is that where they kept Josh?

[JoanArc]

I wonder if 1020 refers to 10 hours 20 minutes. That would make more sense than 1,020 hours of interviews.

Yes, I edited my post. Sorry for the mixup. But looking at the report all the interviews were taped (understandably). I just don't wanna see that on youtube.

 

I really, really don't want to hear from the Duggars how this brought them closer to Jesus, or as a family. They basically lied, covered up, abused, and fucked-up for 10 years in the public eye. I don't ever want Jim Bob and Michelle to see another penny.

[natyxg]

I read through this a second time and took some notes.  Some things can be deduced from what is included in each narrative, in some cases I think I have a pretty good guess of who was being interviewed.

 

#11 and #17- I think are references to Amy.  The way they read they are trying to interview someone from outside the immediate family.  Both made a reference to not wanting this to end up a bigger deal than it is.  Keep in mind Amy is actually a year and a half older than Josh.  He was 14 and she was around 15 1/2 at the time of this incident.  In several places the description is that the victim (Amy) was sleeping on the couch.  Half woke up to being touched.  Just thought that Josh wanted a blanket.  Josh apologized, its all forgiven.

 

#10 is the most heart-breaking.  Something occurred in the laundry room (Jessa's jurisdiction?).  Josh put the girl on the washing machine and touched under her dress.

 

#9 is confusing, makes it seem like it might be the youngest.  Something happened while a story was being read, its confusing whether it happened over clothes or not.  Allegedly happened in front of others.  (Jinger?)

 

Damn I was so creeped out while reading this. I imagined myself as a young girl with a creepo brother that could come out at touch me at any random moment. *Shivers*

 

14 is old enough to know better, so I don't feel bad for him. This shows the hypocracy of people like them. Who knows what else has been brewing in that house. I want the girls, specially, to escape. Josh always seemed to me like he thought he was the greatest shit, so with his "celebrity" status fueling his ego and giving him opportunities I bet he has cheated on Anna, too.

 

I wonder if this will be the beginning of the end for their TV show. They will probably pull the whole "he asked for forgiveness so God and we all forgave him and love him", but TLC is a secular channel and PR and publicity matters a lot.

[CofCinci]

#8 also does not claim to be a victim and uses words like "moral issues" and immoral. This person was only shown a female drawing- so it seems likely to be a female.

Jill?

[Seashell Lover]

They had to know months ago this was going to hit the fan why else would they have bought a home in Arkansas if he still had a great job in DC?

[Kcat1971]

This family is so mess up I wonder if they know what is inappropriate touching is. A frontal hug is inappropriate for example.

 

I don't want to excuse anything or say anything that could translate into victim blaming, but this concerns me.  I have seen situations where kids raised in fundamentalist homes "confess" to inappropriate things that are considered innocent in many homes.  If Josh's hand touched Amy's chest while he was putting a blanket over her, that could be ocnsidered inappropriate and get blown out of proportion. Then he gets grilled about having inappropriate (read "normal") sexual thoughts, and has he ever touched any of his sisters. etc, etc.  Then after he confesses, the girls get grilled, have you ever been touched.   At their ages they want to please their parents and say what the parents "want" to hear.  If the parents were looking for sin, they probably found it.   There are lots of instances of children reporting being molested where they were not.  The children gave the answers the interviewer wanted to hear.  There are also  unfortunately lots of instances of abuse and molestation that do occur and this could be one of them.  It is dangerous to jump to conclusions either way.  Even though I'm trying to sort this out I recognize that the truth is hard to come by especially from redacted reports of interviews that happened 10 years ago regarding an event that was 3 or more years before that.

 

Bottom line is: this family needs help.  I think we've all known that for a long time.

[CofCinci]

They had to know months ago this was going to hit the fan why else would they have bought a home in Arkansas if he still had a great job in DC?

The house is in terrible condition and needs much work. Josh overestimated how much time he had to leave the FRC.

When does everyone think TLC will make an announcement? Tomorrow or on Tuesday after the holiday?

Edited May 21, 2015 by CofCinci

[JoanArc]

 

I wonder if this will be the beginning of the end for their TV show. They will probably pull the whole "he asked for forgiveness so God and we all forgave him and love him", but TLC is a secular channel and PR and publicity matters a lot.

"To Parent a Predator" isn't gonna be a ratings hit. The show, and dog and pony show, is toast. If Michelle wants Starbucks from now on she'll be dumpster diving half-drank fraps.

 

 

When does everyone think TLC will make an announcement? Tomorrow or on Tuesday after the holiday?

Tomorrow. Bury it quickly.

Edited May 21, 2015 by JoanArc

[Fuzzysox]

Even more sickening to me is that they make Jana go and live with Josh and Anna to help with childcare. I don't know if Jana does it for the love of the kids and puts on a somewhat happy face or she is forced to go because Gothard rules command that she forgive her attacker? FUCKED UP! 

[JenCarroll]

I wonder if 1020 refers to 10 hours 20 minutes. That would make more sense than 1,020 hours of interviews.

It's the time of day in a 24-hour day. 1020 hrs is 10:20 a.m.

[Fuzzysox]

"To Parent a Predator" isn't gonna be a ratings hit. 

Hosted by Chris Hansen!

[Isthisok]

Somewhere, Kaeleigh Holt is probably heaving a big sigh of relief that she didn't actually marry this guy. Unless, as it's been widely speculated, she too was a victim of some not-right behavior from Josh.

[3 is enough]

I am reminded of a couple of old episodes which in hindsight seem really creepy now, and make me really wonder WHAT THE HELL WERE JB AND MICHELLE THINKING????

 

First, before Josh got married, he drove to Florida with the four oldest girls to help Anna with the bridesmaids' dresses.  How uncomfortable was THAT drive, and how could JB and Michelle let them go alone with Josh, knowing what had happened?

 

Second, when Michelle had Josie, the girls came back to Tontitown to look in on the house and clean up after JD and Joe.  They had to stay at Josh's house because they couldn't be alone.  Yeah, that was safer...  I distinctly remember Josh making some lame comment about how his house felt like a homeless shelter.  Wow.

Edited May 21, 2015 by 3 is enough

[sandyskyblue]

My heart is breaking for the Duggar girls, Anna and her kids....I, too, blame Michelle and Jim Bob for forcing their f'ed up beliefs on their

kids...making them so scared to feel feelings that everyone feels....and now this clusterfuck, if it's true, bad enough the girls (and possibly

boys) had to endure what they did, and now it's exposed to the world...I cannot even imagine how the ones affected by this are feeling...

ever since the Gosselins came on the TLC scene (and Sister Wives, etc, etc) I have thought long and hard about these reality shows with underage kids being pimped out by their own parents (who should be protecting them, nurturing them, etc) for the sake of money....I don't give one solitary fuck about the parents if they sign up for exposing their own selves on TV...but why the kids?? The kids have no say in it, it's the

parents who destroy their kids' privacy, etc, by putting them on TV for all the world to watch....it honestly makes me sick to think about it....posters on TWOP at the time the Gosselins were on would constantly urge people not to watch the show so that ratings would drop...and obviously, the show was eventually cancelled but recently, I see the Kate and kids again on TLC...it never ends...in this day and age I would think

something could be done to stop this exploitation....

[riverblue22]

Maybe this is why JB didn't want Josh working for FRC and heading off to Washington.  He knew it could always come out.

 

And, yeah, I'd be concerned if I was Anna.  Hard to know if it was just a sexually frustrated fundie boy or a pedophile in training?

[merylinkid]

Wow, this is what you get when you keep a whole family together 24/7 with no outside contact. With hypersexualized parents who shove it in your faces regularly.  Where else is a healthy young man to go for sexual experimentation?   He certainly isn't going to learn about it in the boy's locker room.   The only outlet he had was his sisters.   Which is still wrong, but he needs help to understand.   

 

I always wondered if Jana was exlcuded from courting because of something happening with Gothard.   Now I think it was much before that due to her own brother.   And of course, she's "damaged goods" that no decent man would want.  At least according to their views.   

 

All those kids need serious therapy and get away from their terrible parents and their restricting beliefs.  

[CofCinci]

Page 28...looks like one of he victims has a grandfather named Garrett?

Joseph's middle name is Garrett. Michele's father? I don't remember her maiden name. Edited May 21, 2015 by CofCinci

[Literata]

Fox News and the New York Daily News are running it now. Neither is a bastion of integrity, IMO, but they're a step up from pseudo-blogs.

 

This is not going away.

looks like one of he victims has a grandfather named Garrett?

 

That was MEchelle's dad's name.

[Wellfleet]

I just don't see that happening. She's under Josh's "headship," and she'll stand by him. I'd like to see the Kellers get involved, but they won't; "ownership" of Anna was traded from Mike Keller to Smuggar, and in their culture, I don't think it's even possible for a father to get involved once the daughter's not "his" anymore.

 

Also very much doubt the Kellers will become involved. As far as we know, they haven't done much if anything for Anna's older sister, the one married to that self-centered "pastor" who dragged his whole family - of little kids - to Africa. And had them living in some pretty appalling conditions here in the States as well.

[Literata]

 

...<Redacted>  also lives with <Redacted> grandfather Garrett.

One of the kids lives with her grandfather? What? Or could he have lived with them for a time?

[3 is enough]

 

Wow, this is what you get when you keep a whole family together 24/7 with no outside contact. With hypersexualized parents who shove it in your faces regularly.  Where else is a healthy young man to go for sexual experimentation?   He certainly isn't going to learn about it in the boy's locker room.   The only outlet he had was his sisters.   Which is still wrong, but he needs help to understand.

My thoughts exactly. Not excusing his actions for one second, but it really isn't too surprising given the circumstances of his upbringing.  And I am sure he could hear everything going on in Jim Bob and Michelle's bedroom in the little house they lived in before they moved to TTH.  Which just added fuel to the fire.

[Quof]

A cousin on Michelle's side

[CofCinci]

...<Redacted> also lives with <Redacted> grandfather Garrett.

I dunno.

He lived/died in Ohio, right? Could the victim be one of Michelle's nieces and not Amy?

[OhioMom]

I think this was a pretty common threat that was occasionally carried through ten or twenty years ago to the child's benefit, but today parents are less trusting of the police and protective services and are afraid of unintended consequences.  And savvy politicians would never create a record that could be used against them. 

 

Edited because there are additional allegations in the In Touch article that may put a different spin on things IF true. 

Probably about the time all this was happening with the Duggars is the same time (give or take a few years) that my incident happened with my son.  As you say, it was a different world then. However, as I'm reading more of the info, didn't JimBob refuse to have his son questioned by police?

[Bella]

We have an official mod note regarding this sad situation:

 

For the most part the conversation has been respectful, thoughtful, and fair. We really appreciate that, and it just goes to show what a great group you are.

 

But this is a legal issue involving minors at the time and we'd like to confer with the site owners/admins about how to handle it.

 

So if you can hold off further discussion of the allegations for a while, that would be extremely helpful.

 

As soon as the site administrators get back to us, we'll come here to let you know that they said. Speculating about real people, especially in this instance, really needs to be done carefully.

 

Thanks again!

 

EDIT FROM DAVE: I posted further up thread. Please read that before you carry on, thanks!

Edited May 21, 2015 by David T. Cole

[Guest]

The unredacted court documents were destroyed today. One of the victims requested it. (I suspect at the behest of the awful Duggar parents.)

Edited May 21, 2015 by Guest