Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[Julia]

Imagine every single time you had sex you had a partner wanting to make babies and you DID NOT ABSOLUTELY NOT WANT any more kids.

Sex would be riddled with anxiety, not fun, a chore. Not excusing it but maybe that has a lot to do with why he cheated. He just wanted to have sex without the pressure of making more mouths to feed. ( granted he should have just gotten a secret vasectomy but who knows if he even knows what that is)

 

I am not excusing what he did in the slightest, but he really needs to ditch the idea of Gothard, have a normal sex without procreating, enjoy the four kids he has and see how he feels. 

 

OK, I'm imagining that. Now I'm imagining marrying a woman who isn't allowed to divorce me and promising to be a completely different person for the rest of our lives when I have no particular interest in that life or in fidelity.

 

And if I'm a decent human being for once in my life, I file for divorce and give her a shot at having the life I promised her.

[yogi2014L]

OK, I'm imagining that. Now I'm imagining marrying a woman who isn't allowed to divorce me and promising to be a completely different person for the rest of our lives when I have no particular interest in that life or in fidelity.

 

And if I'm a decent human being for once in my life, I file for divorce and give her a shot at having the life I promised her.

Oh I agree it would be the decent thing for Josh to do( to divorce anna but continue to financially support her), but I don't think he sees it that way.

 

I do wonder if Anna agreed to no more kids, would their relationship improve? Maybe its not the relationship/monogamy that isnt working, but Gothardism. ( From what I saw on the show I do think they do care for each other)

 

I really really wish they would see a legitimate couples therapist and psychologist.....

Edited September 14, 2015 by yogi2014L

[Wellfleet]

Just watched The View with Dr. Phil as a guest. They asked him what he thought of the Duggar situation, and his opinion is that there is way more to be uncovered wrt the Duggar family. In his Dr. Phil speak he said, "For every rat, there's 50 more," and says he's also wondering what issues the rest have.

 

Sorry but I have to give you a Not Impressed, Phil. I do not have advanced degrees in psychology or medicine, but I was able to come to the same conclusion years ago, just by watching the Duggar show and really thinking about what I was seeing. As did MANY other forum participants here. It's been clear from the very beginning that this family has "a lot" going on. We've been anticipating bombshell announcements from Duggarville for a long time. Anyone who's been watching - and REALLY thinking - has been.

[truthtalk2014]

She'd need access to a car with four child safety seats.  That fact alone limits where she can go and how she can get there. 

 

Seriously, she has no real way of leaving. 

If there is one thing the Duggar compound has - it is car seats.  They probably have 50 or so in that shed out back.

[Almost 3000]

If we're being prescriptive, I'm not all that concerned about Josh's future, but it would probably be the first act of conspicuous decency in his life if he would just file for divorce and hand detailed financials over to Anna's lawyer. 

Or talk openly to Anna about birth control and limiting family size and if they can't agree on what their future might look like then mutually agree to divorce. At least let Anna in on the conversation.

[3girlsforus]

OK, I'm imagining that. Now I'm imagining marrying a woman who isn't allowed to divorce me and promising to be a completely different person for the rest of our lives when I have no particular interest in that life or in fidelity.

 

And if I'm a decent human being for once in my life, I file for divorce and give her a shot at having the life I promised her.

 

I am also imagining that this woman I'm marrying has been told all of her life that her only value is having babies and that men only cheat or stray sexually if their women aren't doing what they are supposed to. Unfortunately for her the chances of my being a decent human being are pretty slim. Oh the plus side, I get a 6 month vacation from the responsibilities of my wife and kids and will come home to a sufficiently brainwashed wife who has been threatened to 'keep sweet' because that's what Jesus wants and a mom and dad ready to pay anything to get me established as the wonderful son that was tempted by Satan but fixed by Gothard. 

[zenme]

Sorry but I have to give you a Not Impressed, Phil. I do not have advanced degrees in psychology or medicine, but I was able to come to the same conclusion years ago, just by watching the Duggar show and really thinking about what I was seeing. As did MANY other forum participants here. It's been clear from the very beginning that this family has "a lot" going on. We've been anticipating bombshell announcements from Duggarville for a long time. Anyone who's been watching - and REALLY thinking - has been

 

I have to agree with you, Wellfleet.  I'm just hoping that he's invited Josh, or even Jimbo and Michelle, to the show.  I doubt they'd go.  I think he'd give them a few, "What the hell were you thinking?" responses, which is the same thing I'm wondering. 

[MarysWetBar]

Sorry but I have to give you a Not Impressed, Phil. I do not have advanced degrees in psychology or medicine, but I was able to come to the same conclusion years ago, just by watching the Duggar show and really thinking about what I was seeing. As did MANY other forum participants here. It's been clear from the very beginning that this family has "a lot" going on. We've been anticipating bombshell announcements from Duggarville for a long time. Anyone who's been watching - and REALLY thinking - has been.

Apologies to Dr Fool's fan base but i recall reading somewhere years ago that he isn't even a Dr?

He's more like an ambulance chaser.If it's what the public is watching he will find some way to get camera time from it.

[sometimesy]

I have to agree with you, Wellfleet.  I'm just hoping that he's invited Josh, or even Jimbo and Michelle, to the show.  I doubt they'd go.  I think he'd give them a few, "What the hell were you thinking?" responses, which is the same thing I'm wondering. 

Is there a lawsuit pending or is the a threat of a potential lawsuit? If so, the Duggars will have to stay off tv or most media involving discussions of Joshgate. Didn't they insist on People articles or something staying away from that topic? That's why I don't think a tell-all is straightforward, as anyone who writes it could be providing information for lawsuits. I think the Fox interview brought that possibility to their attention.

[TaxNerd]

Apologies to Dr Fool's fan base but i recall reading somewhere years ago that he isn't even a Dr?

He's more like an ambulance chaser.If it's what the public is watching he will find some way to get camera time from it.

His Dr is in psychology.

[MarysWetBar]

http://everydaypsychology.com/2008/01/is-dr-phil-actually-psychologist.html?m=1

But he's technically not licensed to act as a psychologist?

This confuses me. Can someone answer this in small talk for me?

Edited September 14, 2015 by MarysWetBar

[JenCarroll]

Just watched The View with Dr. Phil as a guest. They asked him what he thought of the Duggar situation, and his opinion is that there is way more to be uncovered wrt the Duggar family. In his Dr. Phil speak he said, "For every rat, there's 50 more," and says he's also wondering what issues the rest have.

I think Dr. Phil gets it right a lot of the time, albeit he's frequently an asshole about it, but this wasn't what you'd call a slam dunk. We all knew this.

And for heavens sake, yes he is a doctor. He has a PhD in psychology which is what all psychologists have. It's not an MD so he isn't and has never claimed to be a psychiatrist. I can't believe I'm defending Dr. Phil here, but it's a bit of a pet peeve. It's a peculiarly American idea that only MD's should call themselves doctors. My husband and I are both addressed as "Doctor" when we teach college course (as we sometimes do). There's nothing shady about Phil McGraw calling himself Doctor. (My friends in the sciences like to say, "I'm a real doctor, not a medical one.")

OK, veering off topic and probably overly cranky. Sorry, all. It's a bad day and I'm on pain meds.

Edited because no, I did not want that changed to "pain mess." Thanks again, auto-correct.

Edited September 14, 2015 by JenCarroll

[NEGirl]

Sorry but I have to give you a Not Impressed, Phil. I do not have advanced degrees in psychology or medicine, but I was able to come to the same conclusion years ago, just by watching the Duggar show and really thinking about what I was seeing. As did MANY other forum participants here. It's been clear from the very beginning that this family has "a lot" going on. We've been anticipating bombshell announcements from Duggarville for a long time. Anyone who's been watching - and REALLY thinking - has been.

Wellfleet - I could not agree more!  I have never really liked Dr.Phil. And, like you said, anyone who has watched the Duggars for any length of time knew they had " a lot" going on and it was only a matter of time before the shit hit the fan. No family is that perfect and godly.  If the Duggars have any sense they will keep their mouths shut and not dig themselves further amo for lawsuits and problems. However, I, like most people here, am just waiting for the next bomb to drop.

[MarysWetBar]

*steps forward timidly* Thank you JenCarrol.I'm Canadian but obviously think like an American sometimes. I'm sorry you are having a bad day and are in pain. I'll be over here not asking anymore silly questions if you need me. (Totally get the pain crankies myself!)

*passes virtual narcotics your way* :)

[JenCarroll]

*steps forward timidly* Thank you JenCarrol.I'm Canadian but obviously think like an American sometimes. I'm sorry you are having a bad day and are in pain. I'll be over here not asking anymore silly questions if you need me. (Totally get the pain crankies myself!)

*passes virtual narcotics your way* :)

There are silly questions in the world; that wasn't one of them. Ask away -- how else do we learn? Know who doesn't ask questions? Duggars. :-)

Sorry I was testy. You happened to hit me on a pet peeve, on a particularly peevish kind of day. Not your fault at all.

[kokapetl]

I believe Dr Phil has a doctorate in Clinical Psychology, however, he was sanctioned and publicly reprimanded by the relevant Texas authority for an ethical violation relating to a patient of his in 1988. His practise was under board supervision until 1990, when the matter was considered closed. Coincidently, he ceased practising in 1990 and founded Courtroom Sciences with a lawyer and began 'Trial Consulting', where one of his later clients was Oprah. He voluntarily retired his license to practise/treat patients in 2006.

Edited September 14, 2015 by Kokapetl

[lookeyloo]

I believe Dr Phil has a doctorate in clinical psychology, however, he was sanctioned and publicly reprimanded by the relevant Texas authority for an ethical violation relating to a patient of his in 1988. His practice was under board supervision until 1990, when the matte was considered closed. Coincidently, he ceased practicing in 1990 and founded Courtroom Sciences with a lawyer and began 'Trial Consulting', where one of his later clients was Oprah.

I understand it that way too.  But I seem to remember that he didn't want to be licensed because he would be under scrutiny and have to answer to the Board.  Anybody?

[zenme]

Sorry I brought it up. Didn't mean to spark a Dr. Phil debate. Just wanted to share a Duggar-related tidbit that I happened to catch.

[kokapetl]

I understand it that way too. But I seem to remember that he didn't want to be licensed because he would be under scrutiny and have to answer to the Board. Anybody?

You're right. He voluntarily retired his Texas board license to practise/treat patients in 2006, but a 2002 California board decision ruled that his show was entertainment not psychology and didn't require a license.

[Anne Elk]

I don't think that Josh married Anna with no intent whatsoever to be faithful. I doubt he is that introspective or insightful about himself. I think he believed that marriage would mean he would finally get all the sex he wanted and he didn't think past that. And then, when he realized that marriage didn't "cure" him, he probably blamed Anna for not being enough woman for him. That way, he had all the excuse he needed to step out on her.

 

I doubt Josh will ever be honest with Anna about what he wants, because I doubt he is ever honest with himself about what he wants. He knows he should live the Gothard way, so that's what he fronts. When he fails to live up to what he preaches, Gothardite teachings hand him a whole bunch of scapegoats he can blame: his wife, porn, temptresses, his sisters, Satan, etc. Why would he ever look past that and see how he's the one at fault?

Edited September 14, 2015 by Anne Elk

[kellylovessnark]

If there is one thing the Duggar compound has - it is car seats. They probably have 50 or so in that shed out back.

Car seats have an expiration date. So how of those have not expired?

[kokapetl]

Car seats have an expiration date. So how of those have not expired?

I had no idea these things expire. Would an infant car seat purchased for M1 still be usable at the time M3 was born, and still usable now for M4? Assuming replacements were required and were purchased in a timely manner before scandal #1 hit, would the newest infant seat be current for M4?

[Fuzzysox]

I don't think that Josh married Anna with no intent whatsoever to be faithful. I doubt he is that introspective or insightful about himself. I think he believed that marriage would mean he would finally get all the sex he wanted and he didn't think past that. And then, when he realized that marriage didn't "cure" him, he probably blamed Anna for not being enough woman for him. That way, he had all the excuse he needed to step out on her.

 

I doubt Josh will ever be honest with Anna about what he wants, because I doubt he is ever honest with himself about what he wants. He knows he should live the Gothard way, so that's what he fronts. When he fails to live up to what he preaches, Gothardite teachings hand him a whole bunch of scapegoats he can blame: his wife, porn, temptresses, his sisters, Satan, etc. Why would he ever look past that and see how he's the one at fault?

I believe this too. Josh is searching for something that he never had....his teenage years. Getting married was the worst thing for him. He is now more trapped than ever.

[kellylovessnark]

This is the Duggars. I don't know the specifics about car seat expirations, but the care seat for Marcus could work for M4.

A quick Google search states that they have a 7 to 10 year life span. So, Josh and Ann could have enough for all 4 children. That assumes they bought them new.

[leighdear]

*LOL*

 

I actually meant that I don't think there is any way Anna could get herself and the kids out of there unnoticed by at least dozen others!  

[truthtalk2014]

This is the Duggars. I don't know the specifics about car seat expirations, but the care seat for Marcus could work for M4.

A quick Google search states that they have a 7 to 10 year life span. So, Josh and Ann could have enough for all 4 children. That assumes they bought them new.

They had enough car seats to drive across country after Joshgate2.  So they still have enough.  I was snarking at the 50 carseats.  This is not a valid reason for Anna to stay with Josh.  The truth is, she doesn't really have a valid reason - unless she just doesn't want to leave him.  

 

Women do it all the time that have MUCH less.  

 

I'm TOTALLY with the poster that said the best thing Josh could do would be file for a divorce.  He is not going to change- no matter how many Cisco and bondage programs he endures.  People divorce and kids live through it.  Anna may even meet a nice fundie in the future that wants the same things she does.  

 

Divorce happens all the time.  Don't quote me, but isn't it over 50%?  People live through it and most of the time are happier after getting rid of the baggage.  (See, I did learn something from the Friday night sermons.  ;)

This is the Duggars. I don't know the specifics about car seat expirations, but the care seat for Marcus could work for M4.

 

I'm cracking up thinking of Anna one day homeschooling and calling the kids M1, M2, M3, M4.  And I seriously hope the numbers end there. 

[kokapetl]

I do think Josh owes Anna a divorce, and owes it to her to insist on it. If he returns a decent man, he should take the heat.

[TaxNerd]

I'm cracking up thinking of Anna one day homeschooling and calling the kids M1, M2, M3, M4. And I seriously hope the numbers end there.

Picture her starring in 20 years on one of those TLC shows about the women who collect dolls and treat them like real children.

Edited September 14, 2015 by TaxNerd

[kalamac]

http://everydaypsychology.com/2008/01/is-dr-phil-actually-psychologist.html?m=1

But he's technically not licensed to act as a psychologist?

This confuses me. Can someone answer this in small talk for me?

Unless they've changed the laws, you don't have to have a license or a degree to practice as a psychologist. You can just hang out a shingle and start seeing people. You can't prescribe medication or anything though, but there's no real oversight, which sucks for the people who do have degrees in Psycology. You do need to be properly licensed for Psychiatry.

[GeeGolly]

Unless they've changed the laws, you don't have to have a license or a degree to practice as a psychologist. You can just hang out a shingle and start seeing people. You can't prescribe medication or anything though, but there's no real oversight, which sucks for the people who do have degrees in Psycology. You do need to be properly licensed for Psychiatry.

Any Mental Health Clinician must be licensed or work under someone else's license. There are multiple licensing entities that oversee therapists. 

[Fuzzysox]

How many weeks has Josh been in prison errr I mean RU rehab?

[Satchels of gold]

Unless they've changed the laws, you don't have to have a license or a degree to practice as a psychologist. You can just hang out a shingle and start seeing people. You can't prescribe medication or anything though, but there's no real oversight, which sucks for the people who do have degrees in Psycology. You do need to be properly licensed for Psychiatry.

I think you are thinking of the title counselor. You can call yourself a counselor with no liscene but a to call yourself a psychologist requires masters Degree or more.

[CofCinci]

How many weeks has Josh been in prison errr I mean RU rehab?

This will be our 4th Friday night watching. Edited September 15, 2015 by CofCinci

[JoanArc]

This will be our 4th Friday night watching.

Five months of bondage to go!

[3girlsforus]

You know if JB ever really needs money he could sell his family to psychologists.  Can you imagine how many PhD students could get their thesis from studying the Duggars? Or published books? 19 disorders and counting....

[What In The]

I think about what Josh grew up with. All Jchelle cares about his being pregnant, all Jimbooby cares about is lolitics and image. Two people who only have room in life for themselves can't possibly help a child in this case Josh.

Sorry, I mesnt politics

[MarysWetBar]

I think about what Josh grew up with. All Jchelle cares about his being pregnant, all Jimbooby cares about is lolitics and image. Two people who only have room in life for themselves can't possibly help a child in this case Josh.

Sorry, I mesnt politics

I actually am quite smitten with the word "lolitics". Suits that occupation to a T. :)

[Micks Picks]

Joan and Cinci, if Josh isn't there, you do realize we are taking the punishment for him…..

[CofCinci]

Joan and Cinci, if Josh isn't there, you do realize we are taking the punishment for him…..

He's there.  I saw him that first week before they realized he was on camera.  RU read our live comments and moved him off camera.

[pennben]

Joan and Cinci, if Josh isn't there, you do realize we are taking the punishment for him…..

 

I'm glad you said that.  I have to admit I have giggled quietly to myself several times over the last few weeks reading the boards thinking that he might not be there and yet so many others are attending Friday services in his place!:) 

Edited September 15, 2015 by pennben

[Featherhat]

Ok so I watched "Duggar Dating Rules" the one where Josh and Anna made the trip from Florida to Arkansas after their engagement, and I want to punch Josh's smug face as he spends all his TH's pontificating about how you shouldn't kiss, even though you are engaged etc and how much more pure that was, blah, blah. Not that it wasn't like that before his scandals came out, but its extra nauseating now.

And sending out various of his younger sisters, including his targets to chaperone against what would presumably be consensual front hugging and rubbing, given all the gross hand sex going on, was vomit inducing.

I watched it to see what he was actually like when they got engaged, and I do think he wanted to get married, if only for the sex and independence. They didn't really know each other very well, which is par for the course but that was some serious hand rubbing and Anna is just as enthusiastic. Now if he/they had had the choice, they might have chosen differently and never got married asap to have sex, but I don't think Josh was exactly pushed into it against his will at the beginning, although Boob and J'chelle probably were hoping it was a solution to their problems.

[xtwheeler]

Just a thought on selling the $65k house, I almost feel like it was done in advance of perhaps a pending lawsuit (5rh victim? Others?) The 65k would still be a reachable asset like the house, but with the cash liquid, Josh could be quietly funneling the cash to other less-reachable places. For example, he could take it out in cash $5k at a time and squirrel some away (with a friend, JD). You'd be surprised how much money you can have access to but not count as your property for the purposes of settling (which of course also just taking cash and keeping it in a drawer or his mattress. Just spit balling here. I'm sure it is some grift plan any way you slice it.

[CofCinci]

Just a thought on selling the $65k house, I almost feel like it was done in advance of perhaps a pending lawsuit (5rh victim? Others?) The 65k would still be a reachable asset like the house, but with the cash liquid, Josh could be quietly funneling the cash to other less-reachable places. For example, he could take it out in cash $5k at a time and squirrel some away (with a friend, JD). You'd be surprised how much money you can have access to but not count as your property for the purposes of settling (which of course also just taking cash and keeping it in a drawer or his mattress. Just spit balling here. I'm sure it is some grift plan any way you slice it.

He could easily transfer the $65K to JB in payment of some made up debt (or real debt if JB paid the $14k IRS debt).  JB can make an itemized billing statement for the room, board and increased security spent on Josh, Anna, and the children.  Also, I wouldn't put it past JB to make Josh pay for his own "rehab" ($7500).  They can move this money around in so many ways to protect Josh from the pending civil lawsuit of the non-family member victim.

 

Upthread some, it was asked how or why could a victim sue Josh after all this time.  Just a reminder that under Arkansas Code, civil action can begin when a sexual abuse victim start to experience the effects of the abuse years later.   Nightmares?  Intrusive thoughts?  Anxiety?  Hypervigilance?  = $$$$$$$.

[Satchels of gold]

I'm glad you said that.  I have to admit I have giggled quietly to myself several times over the last few weeks reading the boards thinking that he might not be there and yet so many others are attending Friday services in his place!:)

I popped in for a bit on last fri night, even if Josh isn't there, it's was freakin hysterical.

[Churchhoney]

I actually am quite smitten with the word "lolitics". Suits that occupation to a T. :)

 

Particularly when JIm Bob is involved. Oughta be one of the top new words of the year, actually.

I'm glad you said that.  I have to admit I have giggled quietly to myself several times over the last few weeks reading the boards thinking that he might not be there and yet so many others are attending Friday services in his place!:) 

 

Once again God moves in mysterious ways. ....

[louannems]

Ok so I watched "Duggar Dating Rules" the one where Josh and Anna made the trip from Florida to Arkansas after their engagement, and I want to punch Josh's smug face as he spends all his TH's pontificating about how you shouldn't kiss, even though you are engaged etc and how much more pure that was, blah, blah. Not that it wasn't like that before his scandals came out, but its extra nauseating now.And sending out various of his younger sisters, including his targets to chaperone against what would presumably be consensual front hugging and rubbing, given all the gross hand sex going on, was vomit inducing.I watched it to see what he was actually like when they got engaged, and I do think he wanted to get married, if only for the sex and independence. They didn't really know each other very well, which is par for the course but that was some serious hand rubbing and Anna is just as enthusiastic. Now if he/they had had the choice, they might have chosen differently and never got married asap to have sex, but I don't think Josh was exactly pushed into it against his will at the beginning, although Boob and J'chelle probably were hoping it was a solution to their problems.

[Loves2Dance]

Given the mocking tone and content of your post, I don't think you understood what I am trying to convey. I'm not talking about mere "sleaziness." I'm talking about men using women an a means to an end, and the normalization of objectification of women and what that attitude can lead to. A man doesn't have to be an active rapist to foster rape culture.

Josh didn't need to "sow his oats." He needed to grow up in a household that respects women and have someone explain healthy sexuality as opposed to the porn he is addicted to.

Not intended to be mocking and I did understand the message you meant; I just don't necessarily agree that Josh fits into that category. 

[louannems]

I also just watched the whole scene where Josh Skype's Anna's father, asking his permission to court Anna, whom he had barely met at the water cooler at a previous ATI camping trip in Big Sandy. Mr.Keller agrees, saying God laid it on his heart that Josh Was The One. So Josh shows up in Florida, on Anna's birthday, in a restaurant, to propose. What I Just Can't Get Over is listening to Josh Giggle, Giggle, Giggle, over and over. He giggled like a little girl! He was just SO confident that Anna would say YES.

[Loves2Dance]

OK, I'm imagining that. Now I'm imagining marrying a woman who isn't allowed to divorce me and promising to be a completely different person for the rest of our lives when I have no particular interest in that life or in fidelity.

 

And if I'm a decent human being for once in my life, I file for divorce and give her a shot at having the life I promised her.

Except she can't have that life unless she leaves the Gothard way too. He has ruined her, for all intents and purposes, in the circle they live in. 

Apologies to Dr Fool's fan base but i recall reading somewhere years ago that he isn't even a Dr?

He's more like an ambulance chaser.If it's what the public is watching he will find some way to get camera time from it.

He has a PhD in Psychology, what i think people latched onto is that he never transferred his license from Texas to California. He could have at this point, but he absolutely has his Doctorate degree and is a real doctor. 

[Loves2Dance]

I don't think that Josh married Anna with no intent whatsoever to be faithful. I doubt he is that introspective or insightful about himself. I think he believed that marriage would mean he would finally get all the sex he wanted and he didn't think past that. And then, when he realized that marriage didn't "cure" him, he probably blamed Anna for not being enough woman for him. That way, he had all the excuse he needed to step out on her.

 

I doubt Josh will ever be honest with Anna about what he wants, because I doubt he is ever honest with himself about what he wants. He knows he should live the Gothard way, so that's what he fronts. When he fails to live up to what he preaches, Gothardite teachings hand him a whole bunch of scapegoats he can blame: his wife, porn, temptresses, his sisters, Satan, etc. Why would he ever look past that and see how he's the one at fault?

I agree with all of this. 

 

One of the biggest injustices that I think JB and Mechelle have done to their kids is not taught them how to cope with the world they live in. You can't live like it's the 1800's in 2015 and expect to get through life without learning to cope with wants, desires, fantasies....etc. etc. That part of your brain is so heavily influenced by your childhood that all of the Duggars children are essentially screwed, Josh is just the first to fall. 

 

I'd bet my entire life savings that JD isn't far behind his brother---he's just smart enough not to get married or be obvious about it. Aside from the Duggar daughter's, I'd be shocked if any of the Duggar boys are actually virgins when they marry. Except maybe Josiah.