Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[Churchhoney]

I don't think SomeP meant literally "where is Josh this very minute".

My sideways brain thought she meant during the interviews, when he was allowing his victims and his parents to speak for him. To try and whitewash and minimize the actions as if he were a 5 year old little at this moment. The fact is, he's a GROWN man with grown up man responsibilities. And his MOMMY went public for him.

Now, at this point, yes- Josh must be silent. The time for him to speak has passed. It never would have benefitted him to speak, we (the public) wouldn't have respected him one iota more and we'd still be ripping his words apart. And the victim who's apparently not so much "ok with it" almost certainly would gain traction if he spoke out. So, yeah. Silence is his best asset, however unfortunately.

It's just that he has forever shown himself to be "La-aaa-am-Bert the sheepish lion" by letting his victims and his parents go public.

 

Exactly. When we're all busy letting Josh (and by extension his crappy parents) off the hook because now there's a lawsuit looming and so on, we're ignoring the -- what? dozen years? -- that have gone by in the interim when it appears that Josh (and his crappy parents) did absolutely nothing responsibility, repentance, repair, reparations or anything else suggestive of trying to actually address or help the situation or take any responsibility for it. It's all very well to say, Well now I can't do anything -- because lawyers. But did he/they ever do anything? And as for his "public repentance," well, in fact, the girls got as much or maybe even more angst and punishment out of that than he did, since they had to stand up in public and forgive the arrogant little bastard whether they wanted to or not and whether or not they even understood what the whole thing meant.

 

So what's his example to his children, that we're all so worried about? If you do something rotten, sweep it under the rug as hard as possible and one day not only will the statute of limitations run out, but everyone will understand why, legally, you just can't address the issue, because there's a lawsuit. How moral. How spiritual. How Christian.

Josh actually admitted to a great deal in his resignation, I thought. The language was vague, by there was no mistaking that he was taking responsibility for it, and he lost his really great job and lifestyle in DC over it. Maybe I'm just completely jaded, but that isn't, to me, exactly the lowest road.

 

I agree. Except that I've always thought that he probably didn't write the letter. Given how many people in the Duggars' world knew all about this, I sort of suspect that FRC drafted out that letter the day Josh was hired so that if the fewmets ever hit the fan, they could pull it out, edit it to get the details of the current events right and force a quick, clean resignation that was as much on their terms as possible. This isn't their first rodeo when it comes to sex scandals.

 

Of course we'll never know. If he did write the letter, then there's a lot more excuse for him than I currently believe. And I do admit that I'm quite biased against Josh because I've seen so little of the show that I never saw his early performances until after this news broke. Having seen him in the 2004 special just after reading all of this stuff, his demeanor absolutely stunned me, especially coming from a teenage boy, and I have seen him ever since as somebody who wouldn't know repentance or responsibility if they came up and bit off his dick.

Edited July 14, 2015 by Churchhoney

[Oldernowiser]

Having seen him in the 2004 special just after reading all of this stuff, his demeanor absolutely stunned me, especially coming from a teenage boy, and I have seen him ever since as somebody who wouldn't know repentance or responsibility if they came up and bit off his dick.

Excellent post...and you've even managed the impossible...you've come up with a concept for a Josh Duggar television appearance I would actually watch!

[GEML]

Oh, I'm sure Josh and an FRC consultant wrote the letter. But I imagine the pressure in the family pre-lawsuit and the possible money offered to Josh was enormous regarding interviews for himself and Anna, and I think it says something that he didn't take the bait like JB, Michelle and the two daughters. If he had done the martyr thing, it might also have helped to get the show back, too. But he didn't do that either. And if he had, we likely would have accused him of doing it for that reason.

I think he's behaved pretty responsibly, all in all. And we don't know why the lawsuit was filed now. We don't know if it's really about what Josh did (heinous as it was) or because of the interviews saying it was "no big deal" and the Duggars claimed to speak for all the victims.

This assumes there will even be a lawsuit.

[Julia]

Not intending to defend Josh, what he did or how he's handling it (or anything else in his life), but his parents put him in an impossible situation. First off, if your kid has a problem with alcohol, you don't give him the run of the room with the wet bar and you occasionally smell his breath if you see him weaving around the house. You also don't tell him that he's powerless against the urge to drink, or that the vodka was asking for it.

 

Then when they were finally forced to address it, they shoehorned the situation into a christless evil saved by Grace narrative which not only got them off the hook for their criminally crappy parenting, it let them lay all Jim Bob's failures at the feet of Josh's little Satan problem and his sisters' soul-enslaving knees.

At that point, what's the kid going to do, even if he was better than he was raised to be? Say, no, I molested my sisters because it got me off and nobody in a position of authority seemed to mind too much and now it's all my fault God has deserted my daddy and we're living piled up like cordwood? Or, if he was feeling really brave, Dad has been doing the backstroke around the diamond in the wrong direction since he was born on third base because he's dumb as a stump, and it's not my fault he screwed up again? And when Jim Bob throws him out use the high school education and work experience and social network he doesn't have to do what?

[dillpickles]

That's a good point... what if the scandal had been something like Josh being addicted to drinking? Would fundies and leghumpers still be defending him, because it happened a long time ago? Alcholism is way less of a crime than molestation, but what would the policy on that be?

Do men just blame everything that makes them trip up in fundyland?

Edited July 14, 2015 by dillpickles

[galax-arena]

That's a good point... what if the scandal had been something like Josh being addicted to drinking? Would fundies and leghumpers still be defending him, because it happened a long time ago? Alcholism is way less of a crime than molestation, but what would the policy on that be?

Probably, because he's one of them and tribalism runs deep.

 

If he were gay, though, he'd probably have been cast out. And what if he came out as a feminist? Or a gay feminist? 

[cheatincheetos]

"See what good Christians we are! We handled this the Biblical way. The RIGHT way!" It says a lot about their priorties in life . Jim Bob and Michelle absolutely feel no regret for their actions.

 

I wish the MadTV "Reality Check" ladies could come out of retirement and trick Jim-Boob and Me-chelle into meeting up with them. So much to say.

[Satchels of gold]

He also said he "acted inexcusably" and "hurt others including friends and family." He apologized publicly. If you've read the report as closely as we all have, he basically affirms it almost word for word. Yes, that includes the forgiveness stuff, but it's admitting he did it in the first place, too.

(Again, given the world we live in, to me, that's not the low road. So he's not acting like a martyr, but we don't know that anyone has asked him to, honestly.).

Yes but he also knew the police reports were going to be released so what choice did he have? It was in black and white for the world to read . No denying that it happened.

[Sew Sumi]

https://instagram.com/p/5IeTfYmlci/

 

Various Duggars, accompanied by Sierra, at HateFilA's Dress Like A Cow Day today. 

 

Anna is still pregnant. 

 

Jinger is disappearing (and should probably be talked about on the Other Duggars thread). 

 

Sierra is still a famewhore. :D

[Happyfatchick]

Oh my gosh!!!! Are pg women exempt from defrauding? Sierra has a cow spot RIGHT ON HER UDDERS, and it's been posted... Pg or not, that is TOTAL DEFRAUDMENT. (Is that a word? It ought to be. She committed DEFRAUDMENT!)

[zenme]

I thought Sierra lived hours away.  I wonder why she's there.

[Fuzzysox]

Probably, because he's one of them and tribalism runs deep.

 

If he were gay, though, he'd probably have been cast out. And what if he came out as a feminist? Or a gay feminist? 

 

He would have been sent to ALERT over and over again or those "pray away the gay" seminars.

I thought Sierra lived hours away.  I wonder why she's there.

Planning the Josiah and Marjorie wedding!?

[GEML]

I don't think he had a choice. But I don't think he's behaved as callously as he might have. He has not tried to avoid everything - he did not say, "I did not mean to hurt anyone" for instance, he said "I hurt people." That's a big difference.

He lost his job, and his family lost a lifestyle they really loved and wanted. He didn't get off Scot-free, and we don't know what more is to come.

He played neither a martyr nor a person who blamed it on anyone else. He's simply been silent on the subject, which to me, is the most dignified response he can give, especially with the possibility of a pending lawsuit. I think no matter what he does, he'll be criticized. So why open your mouth and remove all doubt?

[Marigold]

That's a good point... what if the scandal had been something like Josh being addicted to drinking? Would fundies and leghumpers still be defending him, because it happened a long time ago? Alcholism is way less of a crime than molestation, but what would the policy on that be?

Do men just blame everything that makes them trip up in fundyland?

There are fundamentalist men who have had a more "interesting" past than you would expect. Alcoholism is not unusual for a convert. Being divorced with a blended family in another. Sometimes heavy drug use. For the kids who grew up in the faith/culture, it is more unusual.  For converts? Anything is possible. 

Edit to add: Many truly and sincerely believe that when you come to Christ, you are a new creature. I personally think Anna is just fine. She most likely knew about it and felt that Josh repented...he is forgiven by God and a new person.

 

I do get where she is coming from but I still have doubts about how "new" someone like that can actually become. But I also believe in counseling, therapy, psychology etc.  The Duggars really don't.  They believe more in God and His ability to change a person.  

Edited July 15, 2015 by Marigold

[AmyFarrahFowler]

Can someone enlighten me on the particulars in the event Anna goes long enough without delivering what will happen? If she is being attended by a midwife, do they use the same formula/indications that would determine at what point Anna's care would be transferred to an OB/GYN? I know the clusterfuck Israel's birth became and was wondering if the Duggar's actually ever used a responsible midwife?

[Missy Vixen]

Probably, because he's one of them and tribalism runs deep.

 

If he were gay, though, he'd probably have been cast out. And what if he came out as a feminist? Or a gay feminist? 

 

One has to ask where he'd obtain alcohol in the first place. Isn't the county they live in dry? I have to admit being verrrryyyy interested when the four eldest daughters insisted they'd had a drink "by accident" when they were at a party. Alcohol is considered unacceptable in all fundie circles, so "accidental" drinking isn't exactly a thing.

 

I have a feeling that Smuggar has another little problem, evidenced by the ginormous TV shown in their room.

 

[mizkat]

One has to ask where he'd obtain alcohol in the first place. Isn't the county they live in dry?

 

I'm from AR (and currently here on a visit/work vacation of sorts) and all you have to do is drive to a wet county, stock up, and bring your booze to the dry one. Being a dry county only means liquor isn't sold within the county, not that you can't have it.  I'm currently staying in a dry county and right at the border are two ginormous warehouse sized liquor stores and the parking lots are always full. 

 

Not intending to defend Josh, what he did or how he's handling it (or anything else in his life), but his parents put him in an impossible situation. First off, if your kid has a problem with alcohol, you don't give him the run of the room with the wet bar and you occasionally smell his breath if you see him weaving around the house. You also don't tell him that he's powerless against the urge to drink, or that the vodka was asking for it.

Then when they were finally forced to address it, they shoehorned the situation into a christless evil saved by Grace narrative which not only got them off the hook for their criminally crappy parenting, it let them lay all Jim Bob's failures at the feet of Josh's little Satan problem and his sisters' soul-enslaving knees.

At that point, what's the kid going to do, even if he was better than he was raised to be? Say, no, I molested my sisters because it got me off and nobody in a position of authority seemed to mind too much and now it's all my fault God has deserted my daddy and we're living piled up like cordwood? Or, if he was feeling really brave, Dad has been doing the backstroke around the diamond in the wrong direction since he was born on third base because he's dumb as a stump, and it's not my fault he screwed up again? And when Jim Bob throws him out use the high school education and work experience and social network he doesn't have to do what?

 

 

 

I agree with all of this and you said it better than I could. I'm in no way about blaming the victims, especially in this situation. But Josh has also been a victim to a much lesser extent. I'm definitely not defending what he did, nor am I excusing it or believing that he shouldn't face consequences for his actions. His parents failed him, and they failed his sisters on a larger and more heinous level. 

[kokapetl]

One has to ask where he'd obtain alcohol in the first place. Isn't the county they live in dry? I have to admit being verrrryyyy interested when the four eldest daughters insisted they'd had a drink "by accident" when they were at a party. Alcohol is considered unacceptable in all fundie circles, so "accidental" drinking isn't exactly a thing.

I have a feeling that Smuggar has another little problem, evidenced by the ginormous TV shown in their room.

Tontitown was founded by Italian Catholics and grapes have apparently been grown there since the beginning (1899)

[cheatincheetos]

https://instagram.com/p/5IeTfYmlci/

 

Various Duggars, accompanied by Sierra, at HateFilA's Dress Like A Cow Day today. 

 

Worshipping a golden calf! Graven images, you mofos! Don't they know how that worked out for the children of Israel?!?

Since that restaurant became a cause celebre with the religious right, I started calling it ChickTractFil-A.

 

http://www.monsterwax.com/parodytracts.html

[Wellfleet]

This is the Josh and Anna thread.

It is not a thread about toes, or even Jessa's toes (which would go in the Benessa thread). Please stay on topic.

Thanks!

 

"It is not a thread about toes..." Wow, now there's a sentence I never expected to see online - LOL! Best laugh of the day for me - thanks Bella. :>)

[kokapetl]

https://instagram.com/p/5IeTfYmlci/

 

Various Duggars, accompanied by Sierra, at HateFilA's Dress Like A Cow Day today. 

 

Anna is still pregnant. 

 

Jinger is disappearing (and should probably be talked about on the Other Duggars thread). 

 

Sierra is still a famewhore. :D

I guess the boys still don't let Jackson hang around with them.

[Churchhoney]

Can someone enlighten me on the particulars in the event Anna goes long enough without delivering what will happen? If she is being attended by a midwife, do they use the same formula/indications that would determine at what point Anna's care would be transferred to an OB/GYN? I know the clusterfuck Israel's birth became and was wondering if the Duggar's actually ever used a responsible midwife?

 

Well, if she were using midwives of the kind she saw in DC then they would use exactly the same indications as any other medical professional. I have kept hoping that, since her move came so late in the pregnancy, she  would have gotten a referral from those folks to someone they knew with similar training and experience in her area. But I suppose that didn't happen. So if she's seeing one of the more Duggar-friendly-type midwives, then who knows? Some will follow medical-type indications very closely and others, it seems, will wing it.

Edited July 15, 2015 by Churchhoney

[GEML]

I'm really hoping she's getting physician/certified nurse midwife care since she had such a late transfer, they likely won't make money filming the birth, and she's going through so much now. Add being overdue, and I'm done with lay midwives.

[lookeyloo]

And there's always the chance she will deliver this one at home too.

[Libby96]

I hope poor Anna can have a peaceful delivery. No camera 5 feet away recording every contraction and moan for a national TV audience. It still boggles my mind that they didn't consider that immodest. Childbirth is a natural process, and when there is a happy outcome of healthy baby and healthy mom, a joyous celebration of life. I don't have a problem with people sharing that with are larger audience if that is their choice. I was a big watcher of "A Baby Story" back in the day. I just wonder with Anna's other deliveries how much of a choice she had. She was part of the Duggar brand by then, and the arrival of a little M baby was the next scheduled episode. It also just shows me how their definition of modesty is so tied to sexuality. The aspects of modesty that have to do with living quietly, not thinking of yourself "more highly than you ought" are lost on them. It's all about skirt length and how much you didn't touch your fiancé before marriage.

[GEML]

I also think that Mac's birth went so well and easily, and it was a nice chunk of change (perhaps unexpected, since they did a home birth and it was a full episode and not just part of one) that they, like a lot of people in that position, simply assumed, this is how it "should" and thus always "will" be. We know Jill thought that way haven't even having given birth. Imagine thinking that way after Mac's relatively simple and uncomplicated one.

After that, it was just a given.

[barbedwire]

Still no baby?  She is on Duggar time.

I said it 4 days ago and it still rings true.  Dang, she doesn't wanna come out!  Stay in there little Mary Jo!  (I change her name every time I post.) lol

[Cherrio]

I also think that Mac's birth went so well and easily, and it was a nice chunk of change (perhaps unexpected, since they did a home birth and it was a full episode and not just part of one) that they, like a lot of people in that position, simply assumed, this is how it "should" and thus always "will" be. We know Jill thought that way haven't even having given birth. Imagine thinking that way after Mac's relatively simple and uncomplicated one.

After that, it was just a given.

Just one look at Anna's face and it was clear to me that she had NO say at all and that Josh took the TLC cash over his very young wife's well being and obvious fear and pain.

      She did what she was told and they probably rewarded her with an extra trip to some dumpy second hand store.

I said it 4 days ago and it still rings true.  Dang, she doesn't wanna come out!  Stay in there little Mary Jo!  (I change her name every time I post.) lol

I think her name right now is (Don't) Makeme.

[GEML]

I don't think she had NO say, but she certainly wasn't the Anna we know today!

[kokapetl]

I hope poor Anna can have a peaceful delivery. No camera 5 feet away recording every contraction and moan for a national TV audience. It still boggles my mind that they didn't consider that immodest. Childbirth is a natural process, and when there is a happy outcome of healthy baby and healthy mom, a joyous celebration of life. I don't have a problem with people sharing that with are larger audience if that is their choice. I was a big watcher of "A Baby Story" back in the day. I just wonder with Anna's other deliveries how much of a choice she had. She was part of the Duggar brand by then, and the arrival of a little M baby was the next scheduled episode. It also just shows me how their definition of modesty is so tied to sexuality. The aspects of modesty that have to do with living quietly, not thinking of yourself "more highly than you ought" are lost on them. It's all about skirt length and how much you didn't touch your fiancé before marriage.

I was surprised that Anna allowed a camera crew of 2 or 3 people to see it all up close. Plenty of average people wouldn't sleep easy knowing that the uncensored footage of them giving birth is sitting on a shelf or on a hard drive at some production company.

[barbedwire]

LOL Cheerio!  Or her name could be "Missy Independent"

[Ilovemylabs]

I thought it meant you had a big ding dong.

My belly laugh for the day!  Thanks!

[Sew Sumi]

I thought Sierra lived hours away.  I wonder why she's there.

Sierra's a local. She apparently befriended Anna before any of the other Duggars (maybe Bradley class?). Remember, the first time we saw her was when she "rescued" Mikey's birthday cake? She was The Cake Doctor back then (although it was obvious that rainbow cake was store-bought...she never could have made that under the rushed time constraints). 

[Churchhoney]

Sierra's a local. She apparently befriended Anna before any of the other Duggars (maybe Bradley class?). Remember, the first time we saw her was when she "rescued" Mikey's birthday cake? She was The Cake Doctor back then (although it was obvious that rainbow cake was store-bought...she never could have made that under the rushed time constraints). 

 

Ah, Cake Doctor and professional liar. Just like the rest of them.

[jacksgirl]

Ok, going to bed but, please somebody keep up with the M 4 baby watch and post when/if the Smuggarette arrives. This forum is the first thing I look at when I wake up. Nighty night!

[CofCinci]

Ah, Cake Doctor and professional liar. Just like the rest of them.

But she's rich and spends her money on her friendship with the Duggars.

[Churchhoney]

But she's rich and spends her money on her friendship with the Duggars.

 

Well, that's good. She can help them out when the show finally gets canceled. And while Josh looks for another job.

Edited July 16, 2015 by Churchhoney

[GEML]

Also, she's the new Amy for doing "wacky" things.

[kaleidoscope]

"Ok, going to bed but, please somebody keep up with the M 4 baby watch and post when/if the Smuggarette arrives. This forum is the first thing I look at when I wake up. Nighty night!"

 

Jacksgirl, you will have to join me on the 19 Step Program:)

[galax-arena]

In light of the cancellation news (in the media thread), how guilty do you think Josh feels right now? And I know the family says that everything is forgiven, but I gotta wonder if the other kids are feeling resentful towards him.

[GEML]

They might have forgiven him years ago for the sexual assault, but will they forgive him now? I don't know. This is a huge hit.

[JoanArc]

I'm sorry Anna is overdue and hit with this. Josh? F Josh! Had he shown true humility and repentance over the years I'd feel differently, but I don't rally care about his feelings.

[Cherrio]

They might have forgiven him years ago for the sexual assault, but will they forgive him now? I don't know. This is a huge hit.

I think Jim Bob really would love to kill Josh. 

      I really don't think Jim Bob cares about anything but money and his warehouses full of his toys.

[Flowers]

This just might send Anna into labor.

[preciousperfect]

This just might send Anna into labor.

Wonder what she is doing for medical insurance these days. Yikes.

[barbedwire]

Little Madelynne (another day, another name, another creative spelling) you can come out now!  The media is busy with other stuff and might not notice you.  And oh, good luck.

[kokapetl]

Megyn?

From FreeJinger

Majesstie DeeCee

Myrakelle McRib

Mykdee'eltie Fil-A

Mtellygynt D'zhyne

[JoanArc]

 

Megyn

"We first heard the name when a tv host was interviewing some of my victims..."

[Cherrio]

Little Madelynne (another day, another name, another creative spelling) you can come out now!  The media is busy with other stuff and might not notice you.  And oh, good luck.

I'll contribute another one today too. :)

 

How about (no) Mo (money?) 

 Poor Anna probably has been brainwashed into not being able to deliver until the TLC check is deposited and cleared.    Uh Oh......

[GEML]

If the poor little girl is born today they could go with Miriam (spelled Myryam, of course). At least some Hebrew scholars think it comes from the root word for "bitter."