Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[Julia]

The problem is that the brand of covenant marriage Huckabee supported made it difficult, if not impossible, to divorce in cases of abuse or molestation.

[GreyBunny]

There are forms of prison ministry you can do as a minor, including most basically writing letters. There are also forms of juvenile ministry that she could have been a part of. Very few churches take on prison ministries these days - it is the least popular and most unfounded ministry in the U.S. - but those that do will allow teens to participate if their parents permit, and I'm assuming (wry tone) Anna's did.

Anna's prison ministry time was probably spent writing letters pestering some poor prisoners to find Jesus.  I doubt she ever acquired a realistic view of what life behind bars was really like or how they got there.  All her tiny mind could process was that they were "bad people" who needed to be "saved by Jesus" or some such pablum. 

[Aja]

Yeah, I doubt any prison would let in a minor to run around handing out Bibles and patting prisoners on the head.

[Skittl1321]

Did I completely make this up? I swore we saw a scene of Anna in a prison with her father?  I thought the prison ministry was really his.

[Aja]

Possibly. Probably. I'm just being an asshole about it because, well, they bring that out in me. :)

[kokapetl]

Did I completely make this up? I swore we saw a scene of Anna in a prison with her father? I thought the prison ministry was really his.

Yeah, he did get an episode about his prison ministry.

[birkenstock]

I remember an episode too. Anna was talking to female inmates and she discussed the miscarriage she had before Michael with them (I think). I can't remember if she talked about what she did in her father's ministry though. 

[kokapetl]

I remember an episode too. Anna was talking to female inmates and she discussed the miscarriage she had before Michael with them (I think). I can't remember if she talked about what she did in her father's ministry though.

it's 'GrandDuggar First Birthday'

[Sew Sumi]

Did I completely make this up? I swore we saw a scene of Anna in a prison with her father?  I thought the prison ministry was really his.

I believe I also remember seeing some pictures of Anna doing prison work before her marriage. I think she was of age, though. And as others noted, she's gone back once or twice since she married. It's all very controlled situations. 

Edited July 7, 2015 by Sew Sumi

[GEML]

My mother did an article about me that appeared in our denomination's magazine, that was distributed in prisons. I received several letters as a teenager from prisoners asking if I would write to them, telling me about their lives, completely unasked, forwarded from the magazine. If Anna had taken even the SLIGHTEST initiative, she would have had a as much or as little exposure and contact as she wanted.

[kokapetl]

My mother did an article about me that appeared in our denomination's magazine, that was distributed in prisons. I received several letters as a teenager from prisoners asking if I would write to them, telling me about their lives, completely unasked, forwarded from the magazine. If Anna had taken even the SLIGHTEST initiative, she would have had a as much or as little exposure and contact as she wanted.

Yikes. How did you respond to that? Did John Hinckley write a letter? Edited July 7, 2015 by Kokapetl

[GEML]

I didn't write back (I wasn't interested, and honestly, the article my mother wrote was her perspective on who I was an not mine) but it gave me an interesting glimpse into how porous that world was.

Since then, I've had more of an interest in prison ministry (although it's still very peripheral) and it's something I admire very much in the people who are committed to doing it. It's thankless work beyond what we can imagine. We are beyond cynical about people who are in prison, and think anyone who ministers to them is an idiot and naive - which isn't the case at all. Anyone who was either of those things wouldn't last a week.

[ChocolateAddict]

How old was Anna when she started helping with the prison ministry?  

[Sew Sumi]

I don't think the age of any Keller kid has been divulged w/r/t when they began working the ministry. Ministry that is ATI-approved. Let's not forget this. They now have JTTH (Journey to the Heart) for older teens/young adults to go into Pa Keller's prison (just one) to share testimony.  This may be the doing of David Waller; he's posted many pictures of the groups. Jinger and Jana (IIRC? not 100% sure) have done this in the past couple of years. 

[Temperance]

I saw the one where Anna went to prison on a ministry trip. They were in Florida visiting her parents. One thing I remember is that it was a women's prison. I vaguely remember women were supposed to go only to the women's prison, but that could untrue. 

[Chalby]

Chalby--I moved your post with the question about everyone being sinners to the Religion thread.  I'm sure the helpful and respectful posters there, some of whom are devout Christians, can give you an answer.

Thanks! I am never sure where some of my out-of-the-blue inquires should go.

This.

What 14 year old boy runs to his parents with the news he touched his sisters' private parts??

It's interesting how the story has evolved. When it first was discussed in the media, (as a snippet not even the full story) it was said that a family member complained about Josh behaviour, and it was the same complaint that a local girl had made about Josh. That's when parents approached Josh. I don't even recognize the story any more.

[Chalby]

The Babysitter was an adult at the time of her police interview in 2006, and she only discovered she had been assaulted when the contrite Duggars told her in 2002/2003.

She's an adult and was unaware she had been assaulted. The Duggars were the ones to inform her? Something is wrong with this story. 

Edited July 8, 2015 by Chalby

[GeeGolly]

She's an adult and was unaware she had been assaulted. The Duggars were the ones to inform her? Something is wrong with this story. 

I don't know, it could be legit. She really could have been sleeping. Or she could have known and didn't tell when it initially happened, so lied when her family was told.

[Chalby]

I always got the feeling (pre-scandal) Anna loved Josh. How will she handle that part if SHE feels he no longer has those feelings? Say she has seen nothing at all with the kids at home and I am sure she has thought back more than once.

I feel for Anna and her terrible situation. And her cute daughters...

Same here. My heart goes out to the girl as she has tried her hardest to be a good wife (to an arrogant and indifferent husband). She appears to be a very good mom, always talking things through. I can't see her wanting any more kids with him, but I bet you she prays constantly for the Lord to restore her initial feelings for Josh, Just move on Anna - you'd be a prize for another husband.

[becca3891]

Didn't Anna say that Josh was ever so helpful in getting up and changing diapers at night? I'm in no way saying he molested his daughter, but I have seen no evidence of Anna being reluctant to leave Kynzie alone with Josh.

Oh yes, in that interview episode they aired just before the molestation news broke, Anna talked about how with babies, she takes care of the north end (breastfeeding) and Josh takes care of the south end, diaper changing. I would just never be able to trust him with that as she apparently does.

 

The problem is that the brand of covenant marriage Huckabee supported made it difficult, if not impossible, to divorce in cases of abuse or molestation.

There is a huge emphasis in the fundie world on the supposed evils of no-fault divorce, and I have heard many politicians campaign against it. It's just horrifying to think that these people want to take steps backward, when it used to be impossible for abused women to get enough evidence to be allowed a divorce. 

 

Thanks! I am never sure where some of my out-of-the-blue inquires should go.

It's interesting how the story has evolved. When it first was discussed in the media, (as a snippet not even the full story) it was said that a family member complained about Josh behaviour, and it was the same complaint that a local girl had made about Josh. That's when parents approached Josh. I don't even recognize the story any more.

To be fair, I don't think the story really has evolved; it was just hard for us to make complete sense of the redacted police report, with all the pronouns hidden. It had originally appeared that someone else told on Josh, but in reality, he is the one who came to his parents and confessed. I will NEVER defend Josh or his parents for the way this was handled, but I will say that we were the ones falsely interpreting early on. It is still true, though, that they have been cagey/deceptive about the timeline regarding counseling. Most of us think no licensed counseling was given until the court demanded it in 2006.

[Chalby]

Here's the link to the Dillard's donation page.https://give.cornerstone.cc/The+Dillards

I am floored by the Duggar's lack of graciousness, or tact, decorum whatever!! When I read the Dillards asking for money to move and go on a mission, and Josh eagerly accepting free remodelling, I become incensed. They all made a ton of money from TLC - remember Anna and Josh's Winnebago vacation their move to DC and the Dilliard's marriage/pregnancy? Come on - don't they understand the shame of gluttany? They have had their 15 minutes of fame AND were very well paid. How dare they ask and expect more?

Edited July 8, 2015 by Chalby

[Churchhoney]

I am floored by the Duggar's lack of graciousness, or tact, decorum whatever!! When I read the Dillards asking for money to move and go on a mission, and Josh eagerly accepting free remodelling, I become incensed. They all made a ton of money from TLC - remember Anna and Josh's Winnebago vacation their move to DC and the Dilliard's marriage/pregnancy? Come on - don't they understand the shame of gluttany? They have had their 15 minutes of fame AND were very well paid. How dare they ask and expect more?

 

Oh, c'mon, we gotta get with the Duggar morality-ethics program. Here it is: The only sins and faults that count are sexual. And they don't count either, if the other person is unconscious or too young to fully understand what sex is, or if you checked with Jesus and he says that he's already forgiven you. Have you got it now? See -- it's plain and simple!

Edited July 8, 2015 by Churchhoney

[anony mouse]

I saw the one where Anna went to prison on a ministry trip. They were in Florida visiting her parents. One thing I remember is that it was a women's prison. I vaguely remember women were supposed to go only to the women's prison, but that could untrue.

It would make sense. Like GEML, I've received some inmate letters unsolicited. (I clerked in criminal defense). Some were simply lonely but a lot were rather disturbing. If I were setting up a prison ministry, I would definitely have young women starting out with it at the women's prison.

[Oldernowiser]

To be fair, I don't think the story really has evolved; it was just hard for us to make complete sense of the redacted police report, with all the pronouns hidden. It had originally appeared that someone else told on Josh, but in reality, he is the one who came to his parents and confessed. I will NEVER defend Josh or his parents for the way this was handled, but I will say that we were the ones falsely interpreting early on. It is still true, though, that they have been cagey/deceptive about the timeline regarding counseling. Most of us think no licensed counseling was given until the court demanded it in 2006.

Do we have anyone who isn't a Duggar confirming that Josh's confession started this? Because it sounds ever so much better to say that he confessed rather than one of his victims ran for help...

[kokapetl]

Do we have anyone who isn't a Duggar confirming that Josh's confession started this? Because it sounds ever so much better to say that he confessed rather than one of his victims ran for help...

InTouch later published a less redacted portion of the original documents.

[BitterApple]

I am floored by the Duggar's lack of graciousness, or tact, decorum whatever!! When I read the Dillards asking for money to move and go on a mission, and Josh eagerly accepting free remodelling, I become incensed. They all made a ton of money from TLC - remember Anna and Josh's Winnebago vacation their move to DC and the Dilliard's marriage/pregnancy? Come on - don't they understand the shame of gluttany? They have had their 15 minutes of fame AND were very well paid. How dare they ask and expect more?

Hey, why should Derick and Jill finance their own vacation when their legion of leg humpers can do it for them and they get a nice fat tax write off in the process. *Solemn voice* God laid it on their hearts to do it this way...

[Defrauder]

As far as the Duggars accepting every donation they can it's their disgusting attitude of entitlement that infuriates me.  It's like they're saying - we are so great even God knows how great we are blessing us all of the time so you should too.  It's very anti Christian to have this attitude in my opinion as they seem to have lost or forgotten the verses about being meek just for starters.  Where are they getting this example from?  I can't imagine.  They have this haughty, self righteous, I'm better than you are, everyone is worse than us attitude.  It's awful.  As they photograph themselves 'helping' those that are poor they seem more concerned about helping themselves look wonderful.  Look how wonderful we are helping these losers is the attitude that I get and it sickens me.

[Oldernowiser]

InTouch later published a less redacted portion of the original documents.

Thank you for posting that link. Maybe I need more caffeine, but it's still JimBob claiming that Josh confessed. So for me, that's Duggar to the second power and it makes everything sound so terribly wholesome, if you don't count molestation, of course.

I don't buy it, but then I wouldn't believe a Duggar under oath on that Bible they stand on.

[Aja]

As far as the Duggars accepting every donation they can it's their disgusting attitude of entitlement that infuriates me.  It's like they're saying - we are so great even God knows how great we are blessing us all of the time so you should too.  It's very anti Christian to have this attitude in my opinion as they seem to have lost or forgotten the verses about being meek just for starters.  Where are they getting this example from?  I can't imagine.  They have this haughty, self righteous, I'm better than you are, everyone is worse than us attitude.  It's awful.  As they photograph themselves 'helping' those that are poor they seem more concerned about helping themselves look wonderful.  Look how wonderful we are helping these losers is the attitude that I get and it sickens me.

That irks me too, so much. The whole "love the sinner, hate the sin" concept, odious to begin with, is taken to really evil extremes with them. There are lots of things about me that would qualify as "sins" that they feel free to hate while "loving" me. Thanks guys, I don't need your creepy-assed "love". Or your judgement regarding ANYTHING about my life. 

[Defrauder]

Gotta say if I was a babysitter in that home and JB and Mechelle hired me without WARNING ME about Joshes behavior I'd want them held liable.  What did JB and Mechelle every do for the victim other than go on National TV and parade Josh around like the next saint in the making FOR YEARS while giving an interview talking about his soft heart and how mild everything was.  What have they ever done for the victim, anything?  Protect Josh?  Minimize the abuse?  Go for years pretending it never happened and it's all behind US and WE are all fine?  We thought it would never come out!  Selfish and sly is my opinion of them, and worse. 

[barbedwire]

(Sorry if this has already been covered...) do you think maybe babysitter is mad if (and I do not know) they got paid for that Megyn interview?  I would be mad too if someone profited off of their criminal behavior (or the family members did and I was drug into it, and someone dared to "speak" for me).

[JoanArc]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3152889/How-Josh-Duggar-cleansed-sexually-abusing-siblings-carpentry-lust-counselling-one-one-talks-Jesus-s-seven-stresses.html

 

New article on Josh's 'therapy' in Little Rock. Special Guest: Bill Gothard!

 

 

Harold Walker personally counseled Joshua. First of all Harold wanted to know Joshua was a believer and Joshua traces his salvation to his time with Harold.

'Once he became a Christian, of course his conscience became even more delicate and he wanted to follow and please the Lord. When Josh came back he was a different person.'

So 14-15 year old Josh wasn't a christian? Jinger has said she wasn't one at this time, either. Didn't Josh say he accepted Jesus as a child, but now the guy counseling him said he hadn't.

 

 

'The police wrote it out, they documented everything, so they took it seriously,' he said.

'The fact is he did touch his younger sisters, he was a teenager at the time, he touched them in the wrong places which was totally wrong but the sisters weren't even aware of it.'

Uh, the police report says at least one of the girls was aware, the one that went to her parents for help.

 

He said: 'Josh acknowledges it, he tells his parents and they tell the sisters and that was the first time they have learned about it. Same thing with the babysitter, she didn't know about it.'

He added: 'This is really quite different to what you think. It has been overblown, it is not like he is a sexual predator, he was a teenage boy.

'What he did, touching over the clothing, is not nearly what you think it is. It was wrong, but unfortunately there's a lot of this going on in many families today.'

Go to hell, Bill.

 

Gothard claims that one of the seven stresses, lust, can have a powerful affect on your immune system.

'The endocrine system consists of about 16 or 17 or so glands throughout our body and they are affected by our sexual drive,' he explains.

Lust can have a positive or negative affect on the body depending on what it's for. God designed us to have an attraction to the opposite sex for marriage. But whoremongers will be damaged by their own system.'

Oh my. Where to begin.

 

Shortly after the institute acquired the building, Gothard began renovating the vast space, saying it would be used as a juvenile center, orphanage for foreign children and base for growing his ministry in Arkansas.

An ATI orphanage?

 

Rambling Gothard said he believes the scandal surrounding reality star Duggar was a wider attack on his faith.

'What this is about is an attack on Christianity,' he said angrily. 'They are out to discredit and destroy Christianity.'

Rambling Gothard was the best part of the article. Let his little cult die.

Edited July 8, 2015 by JoanArc

[barbedwire]

An orphanage?  Is that because they don't believe in adoption (despite what Jessa says) so they need to keep them all in one place?!  And "Rambling Gothard" - LOL

[Aja]

 

 

Rambling Gothard said he believes the scandal surrounding reality star Duggar was a wider attack on his faith.

'What this is about is an attack on Christianity,' he said angrily. 'They are out to discredit and destroy Christianity.'

Your bastardized, sick, evil, twisted brand of Christianity that victimizes and abuses women and children and seeks to strip entire populations of American citizens of their human rights because it's all based on your own psychotic sexual dysfunction...yes.

Edited July 8, 2015 by Aja

[GEML]

Given that I actually think that Josh has some sense, I'm betting he is sitting there saying, "please. Shut. Up. Just Shut. Up."

[Defrauder]

I think it was either Jessa or Jill in the victims interview that mentioned they knew A LOT OF FAMILIES that this sort of thing happened to and  that  it was much worse.  First of all who ARE ALL of these OTHER families they know that this has happened to and worse?  Secondly it seems like a lame attempt at saying our family is still better than OTHER families.   Why do they know such families?  A lot of them?  How do they know them?  I just don't think average families know A LOT of families that this happens to and worse.  Should an investigation be done to know who these families are and if these things that are worse are still going on?  I thought they hung out with families that share their beliefs and lifestyle.  What's going on?    

 

Gothard's ways and sexual perversions and obsessions seem obscene to me and I have to wonder if in his followers these types of incidents, and worse, are just commonplace. 

[barbedwire]

I agree.   Who are these other families?  From Big Sandy convention?  And what is "a lot" - 2 or 20?  If that is true, then a lot of crime and sinning is going on in the ATI world.

[Cherrio]

Given that I actually think that Josh has some sense, I'm betting he is sitting there saying, "please. Shut. Up. Just Shut. Up."

The only sense that Josh had was to play the I became a Christian card after he got caught molesting. Just like lots of other criminals do.

         He also quickly picked up on his mom's con. Speaking in Gothard speak with that sick smile that I have seen so often plastered on these nutcases.

[FakeJoshDuggar]

In which Jim Bob makes a prayer about Jerick and Jilly Muffin leaving for another poverty tour all about Josh Duggar, Child Molester™. It's approximately at the 1:07 mark.

Also...

Dear Duggars,

Can nothing be private anymore? Is nothing sacred? Can you not say goodbye to your children without getting it recorded?

No love,

FJD

Edited July 8, 2015 by FakeJoshDuggar

[farmgal4]

Go to the Daily Mail and read today's article about Josh's punishment, Gothardism, etc.

[Missy Vixen]

Here's a question that's dumber than a box of hair... If Smuggar allegedly told his now-wife and her parents "everything" before they were married, what father in his RIGHT MIND would allow a daughter (brainwashed by a cult who worships the almighty positive pregnancy test) to marry him? If Anna's father does "prison ministry", he of ALL PEOPLE would know the recidivism rate for molesters!

 

What kind of woman would marry anyone she knew perpetrated this type of act? Not only marry him, but have children with him?

 

Seriously. I want to know.

[ChicksDigScars]

So, does Special Snowflake Joshie get the McMansion while Jill and Derick are gone? Especially since he acted like such a spoiled, entitled little piss ass whenever he talked about what Jill got to live in, in comparison to what Josh got when he got married? 

[Ljohnson1987]

Here's a question that's dumber than a box of hair... If Smuggar allegedly told his now-wife and her parents "everything" before they were married, what father in his RIGHT MIND would allow a daughter (brainwashed by a cult who worships the almighty positive pregnancy test) to marry him? If Anna's father does "prison ministry", he of ALL PEOPLE would know the recidivism rate for molesters!

 

What kind of woman would marry anyone she knew perpetrated this type of act? Not only marry him, but have children with him?

 

Seriously. I want to know.

Because she's an idiot who fell for the first moron she met at the snack stand. Anyone who isn't brainwashed by Gothard, would've never married Smugs. How dare she let it go, like it was nothing? And not only marry him, but have children with him? Anna! Wake up! Your husband was never properly treated for this issue, and that is a problem, you should be concerned about.

[Defrauder]

Here's a question that's dumber than a box of hair... If Smuggar allegedly told his now-wife and her parents "everything" before they were married, what father in his RIGHT MIND would allow a daughter (brainwashed by a cult who worships the almighty positive pregnancy test) to marry him? If Anna's father does "prison ministry", he of ALL PEOPLE would know the recidivism rate for molesters!

 

What kind of woman would marry anyone she knew perpetrated this type of act? Not only marry him, but have children with him?

 

Seriously. I want to know.

Yeah really, thanks Dad for steering me in the right direction with all of your wisdom.

[DangerousMinds]

So, does Special Snowflake Joshie get the McMansion while Jill and Derick are gone? Especially since he acted like such a spoiled, entitled little piss ass whenever he talked about what Jill got to live in, in comparison to what Josh got when he got married?

It would be nice if Jana and some of the other girls could housesit and escape their prison for a while. It won't happen, but the Dullards' house could be a target for burglary since everyone knows the house is vacant for a while.

[kokapetl]

Here's a question that's dumber than a box of hair... If Smuggar allegedly told his now-wife and her parents "everything" before they were married, what father in his RIGHT MIND would allow a daughter (brainwashed by a cult who worships the almighty positive pregnancy test) to marry him? If Anna's father does "prison ministry", he of ALL PEOPLE would know the recidivism rate for molesters!

What kind of woman would marry anyone she knew perpetrated this type of act? Not only marry him, but have children with him?

Seriously. I want to know.

Pa Keller simply believes anybody can be redeemed.

[Anne Elk]

So 14-15 year old Josh wasn't a christian? Jinger has said she wasn't one at this time, either. Didn't Josh say he accepted Jesus as a child, but now the guy counseling him said he hadn't.

 

Reading into this, I'd guess he means that Josh still had independent thoughts left in his head, he hadn't been entirely subsumed to the cult way of thinking. I'm sure Gothard and his minions took care of that. 

 

Jim Bob said that the family was not strict enough in following the Gothard way of living until after the Josh incident. So what they learned from this is not that the Gothardite principles are wrong, it's that the Duggars were wrong for every single little lapse they ever had, any freedom the kids had, or any teachings that they didn't get on board with 100%. Another example of cult thinking: Gothardism cannot fail, it can only be failed by people not carrying it out correctly. The solution is always getting more involved in the cult, not less. 

 

And hey, it worked for them. More Gothardism got them a TV show, lots of money, and People magazine covers. It got Josh a six-figure Washington job and his own yes-woman. 

 

Of course the recent unpleasantness has to be caused by outside forces trying to bring them down. The cult is perfect. It can't possibly lead them astray.

[bluebonnet]

hahahahah, I love it.  To someone who has done any research on Gothard and his cult, it almost looks as though he spoke up with the intent to put the final nail in the Duggar coffin.  It's very damning.  But then spending ten minutes reading about Gothard will reveal that this dude is a looney and he believes everything he says and he probably loves the Duggars.

 

Oh and fuck you Gothard for telling your flock that preying on sleeping people, whether they are wearing clothes or not, is perfectly normal and happens in lots of families.  It doesn't, and it's quite revealing that people who flock to you seem to have this problem.  

[GeeGolly]

Wow. The Gothard article. I think even the Bates' show might be in jeopardy now. Just WOW.

[Defrauder]

The rambling Got-hard files.