Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[Ljohnson1987]

Anna will never leave Josh. If she hasn't with knowing all that he's done, she never will. It's both infuriating and tragic. 

[ginger90]

The PSR is going to be with him from now on in the prison system. The BOP will use it, case managers, counselors, the education department, psychologists, and medical, and whatever I forgot.

I don’t see his defense attorneys as some big shot defense team after reading their submission.

[roamyn]

Quote

3 MINUTES AGO

Part 2:

So on the enhancement argument for Distribution of CP:

What’s an ‘enhancement’?

[hathorlive]

7 minutes ago, roamyn said:

What’s an ‘enhancement’?

An enhancement is an additional punishment that can increase the base sentence in CP cases.  There are 4 major enhancements, that have to do with number of images, the others have to do with sex acts, age of victims and other things that might not be good to discuss here.  Basically, it's a way to say all CP is horrible, but these images are REALLY horrible and should be punished more harshly.

[graefin]

41 minutes ago, Ljohnson1987 said:

F anyone who is asking for leniency for that pig.

Why you gotta insult pigs now?

[graefin]

31 minutes ago, cmr2014 said:

I think that she wrote it. It's stuffed full of Gothard-speak:

"My heart is to share . . ."

"He is wise financially -- saving money for the future and purposing not to go into debt."

"One example of his heart to help others . . ."

"Joshua is a loving and patient man, striving to be a blessing . . .:

One thing that sets it apart of the obligatory birthday messages, is that I think she actually gives a shit about Josh. She probably spent months, rather than minutes, putting it together. Perhaps someone in the law office (or David Waller?) did some proof-reading, but it's very much her voice.

I agree. The diction, the odd punctuation (so many exclamation points!)--it sounds very much like Michelle. I can just hear her reading it.

Also, if this is what a "professional" came up with, how pathetic must the original have looked? It's so bad (she basically says please be lenient because look--"Josh and his family stood side by side and built forts and did homework--together!" in various forms over and over) that it could only come from the mind of a crazy person.

[Trillium]

I’m sure the IRS would be very interested in this supposed monthly gift of $2,000 for years. Limit in 2021 was $15k. 

[Tuxcat]

Did the prosecution include Josh's infidelity in the character rebuttal?

It is striking to me that none of Josh's siblings wrote a letter -  though I don't think that demonstrates their lack of actual support. They know (as does the Bates family...) that their own public value decreases if they act anything less than neutral. Unfortunately their decision to abstain is likely PR related vs. morally related - at least in some cases.

[babyhouseman]

9 hours ago, merylinkid said:

Yes a Judge actually can say t if the best thing they got about him is he sets his alarm

The Duggars were amazed by this because of Duggar time you know. 

[crazy8s]

For whatever it's worth. Nichole Burress and her husband own property adjacent to duggarland across the street from the TTH. Jb and Meech trust sold them a piece of land adjacent to both properties earlier this year.

At that time The Sun, or someone, speculated JB was selling off property to pay ff legal expenses. I found that lame then since JB has more valuable properties he could sell to get funds. But now the thought of he sold land to a neighbor that adjoined both properties and then the wife writes a fairy tale to the judge about ff....hmmmm

[libgirl2]

1 hour ago, Ljohnson1987 said:

F anyone who is asking for leniency for that pig. Doesn't Michelle (Who is obviously immature to dot the I with a <3) care about her daughters, who were Josh's victims? Doesn't Anna care about the women who have helped her raise her children?  These people are awful. 

They don't.  Women are nothing to them

 

[Tuxcat]

15 minutes ago, crazy8s said:

For whatever it's worth. Nichole Burress and her husband own property adjacent to duggarland across the street from the TTH. Jb and Meech trust sold them a piece of land adjacent to both properties earlier this year.

At that time The Sun, or someone, speculated JB was selling off property to pay ff legal expenses. I found that lame then since JB has more valuable properties he could sell to get funds. But now the thought of he sold land to a neighbor that adjoined both properties and then the wife writes a fairy tale to the judge about ff....hmmmm

I don't know. If I were paid off to write a letter - I would probably provide a bland, form type letter saying things like "he builds forts and tosses a ball." Instead the Burgess couple went to great lengths to highlight and elaborate very detailed and clearly crafted moments. It seems to me that they really do believe the fiction they write. 

[quarks]

I am fairly certain that Nicole Burress is telling the truth about "this felon was all MEAN to me and then he came around and told me he knows I'm innocent"  story - in the sense that she did, indeed, hear Josh tell this story. I will also say that I have met enough felons/former felons - nearly all of whom distrust the current sentencing/prison systems for varying reasons - to say that one felon telling another felon "Hey, I know you're not guilty, my dude," is not, on its own, implausible. That happens. And it is extremely likely that people - felons, guards - have been mean to Josh or said mean things to Josh. 

That said, I don't think any of that - other than people saying mean things to Josh - ever happened.

9 minutes ago, Tuxcat said:

I don't know. If I were paid off to write a letter - I would probably provide a bland, form type letter saying things like "he builds forts and tosses a ball." Instead the Burgess couple went to great lengths to highlight and elaborate very detailed and clearly crafted moments. It seems to me that they really do believe the fiction they write. 

Oh, sure.

But in that group, their letters really stand out for quality, despite all the italics. I mean I personally am skeptical about the felon story, and I'm not convinced that running over to a neighbors with Imodium exactly counts as a major deed of charity, Christian or otherwise. And the comment that Josh has "willingly and publicly admitted to past sins and errors" doesn't quite square with the reality that Josh sent his parents and sisters to talk to Megyn Kelly and didn't have the guts to do a TV interview himself - or the reality that Josh is denying these past sins and errors in current court papers. But full kudos to Mr. Burgess for slipping in that mention of that "unscrupulous young man with a history of harm to minors" and the not so gentle hint that all of this is only happening because people hate the Duggars. Not remotely convincing, granted, but he was the only person to stay on script there, so, kudos.

Which is to say, they seem to have put considerably more time and effort into their letters than Josh's own mother, wife, father-in-law, brother-in-law and family connection LeCount Reber did.

(Pause here to acknowledge Pa Keller informing the judge and the rest of us that, aside from everything else, Josh also sold someone a pick up truck with a transmission that died in a couple of years - with said customer unable to cover the repair costs. Not exactly the anecdote I would have used to try to get a reduced sentence for an in-law - "Don't forget, your honor, Josh ALSO SELLS TERRIBLE QUALITY USED CARS" - but here we are.)

So although I'm certainly willing to believe that the Burgess couple believes what they wrote, I also can't help noticing the difference between their letters and the others - who also, presumably, believe what they wrote.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Trillium said:

I’m sure the IRS would be very interested in this supposed monthly gift of $2,000 for years. Limit in 2021 was $15k. 

Assuming he and Anna file jointly, it doesn’t matter. They could easily say half was from him and half was from her since it was joint finances. 
I know a family that wanted to do the maximum they could without filing a gift tax return so husband and wife each gave the maximum to their son, daughter, and each of their 3 kids all in one lump sum. As long as you can say you’re breaking it out like that, even if you don’t physically do separate transactions, you’re fine.

[Tuxcat]

34 minutes ago, quarks said:

So although I'm certainly willing to believe that the Burgess couple believes what they wrote, I also can't help noticing the difference between their letters and the others - who also, presumably, believe what they wrote.

Great perspective. Yes, I can see now that they were perhaps incentivized to go that extra 2000 miles - or maybe to just lend their names as authors. 

[Churchhoney]

3 hours ago, SMama said:

Would this flat out denial affect his sentence? After the Meghan Kelly interviews and Holt’s testimony he has the nerve to call all of them liars? 

I think nerve of that kind may be about Josh's only "strength." 

That and a certain glibness and an ability to project an arrogant composure, no matter what. 

Other than those attributes, he seems to be a weakling in every respect.

He's a really really unfortunate combo of poisonously intersecting nature-driven and nurture-driven traits, I suppose. So depressing that he has seven kids. 

 

[Churchhoney]

16 hours ago, graefin said:

I agree. The diction, the odd punctuation (so many exclamation points!)--it sounds very much like Michelle. I can just hear her reading it.

Also, if this is what a "professional" came up with, how pathetic must the original have looked? It's so bad (she basically says please be lenient because look--"Josh and his family stood side by side and built forts and did homework--together!" in various forms over and over) that it could only come from the mind of a crazy person.

David Waller's been a Duggar ghostwriter before. I can imagine him helping her out a bit on this, maybe. They're both completely soaked in Gothard speak and Gothard "concepts." But DW's a little less ignorant and little less brainfoggy than Meeechelle.  

Edited May 13, 2022 by Churchhoney

[Churchhoney]

26 minutes ago, Tuxcat said:

Great perspective. Yes, I can see now that they were perhaps incentivized to go that extra 2000 miles - or maybe to just lend their names as authors. 

Maybe JB and M told them they'd sell them land at a nice discount, but they'd only determine the discount after the Bs submitted the letters of recommendation at the TTH for approval. 

I suppose it didn't happen in such a shady way. But I wouldn't put that past JB and M, actually. 

[Zella]

My guess is that Michelle provided the wording and someone else may have cleaned up her punctuation a little. I can't say I am terribly familiar with things that are obviously written by Michelle, so I wouldn't recognize her writing style. But when I am putting the old English degree to work for friends and looking over something important they've written, I try to preserve their wording as much as possible, even if it's not quite how I would have phrased it. 

[LilJen]

8 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

 

I've heard it explained this way--the commandment ends with bearing false witness against your neighbor.  Fundies interpret this phrase to mean your neighbor is your fellow Christian who believes in the Right Jesus (TM).  Meaning you are not sinning if you stretch the truth or fib or flat-out lie to an unbeliever.  As long as Judge Brooks (??) is not the right type of Christian, you are not sinning.  

Uh huh. Never mind that Good Samaritan story.
Jerks. EVERYONE is your neighbor.

[Cinnabon]

11 hours ago, hathorlive said:

I think I'm immune to these types of documents.  I was in court for the WORST CASE EVER (it needs a special font or something) and the guy who had his CP in folders with names like "littles" and "real littles" had his preacher stand up in court and say he's a great guy, good Christian, he deserves leniency.  I had to fight back scoffing noises.  The guy had 8 siblings and there tons of little kids around him.  What religious person puts children in danger's way?  

David Waller does.

[farmgal4]

8 hours ago, Gemma Violet said:

Here's the Burress letter in case anyone hasn't seen it.  It starts on page 2:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CddnazbubSG/

Unable to load document.

[emmawoodhouse]

6 minutes ago, farmgal4 said:

Unable to load document.

Here's the Dropbox with all the "character" letters.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/stzm87xbt6zc0yg/Defense Sentencing Letters.pdf?dl=0

[Zella]

The "Josh brought me diarrhea medicine" part of her letter has just come to my attention, and I don't even know how to begin processing that story. 

[SMama]

9 minutes ago, Zella said:

The "Josh brought me diarrhea medicine" part of her letter has just come to my attention, and I don't even know how to begin processing that story. 

It’s the only reason she had a safe delivery. I was laughing at her description of the doctors looking at her through thick glass and not going further than the doorway due to her COVID. It’s a hospital not a zoo. St. FF risked his life so her baby would go to term. 🤢🤮

[Zella]

3 minutes ago, SMama said:

St. FF risked his life so her baby would go to term.

That part also seemed wild to me. He could have just put the medicine on the porch, and then they could have picked it up after he left. LOL I have been perhaps more cautious about COVID than the average Arkansan, but I really wouldn't have wanted a side of coronavirus with my diarrhea and early contractions. 

[farmgal4]

On 5/11/2022 at 9:02 PM, BitterApple said:

I browsed the Prosecution's memo and the details are a thousand times worse than what was revealed during the trial. I don't know how the attorneys typed that thing up without losing their lunch.

I can't decide if Josh's supporters are willfully ignorant or as demented as he is.

Where did you finding the memo?

[GeeGolly]

The Pepto Bismol story reminded me of a friend who had recently restarted smoking. She hadn't told her husband or kids yet and would sneak smokes when she was out and about without them. She said she finally told her husband because he was getting suspicious because she was always up and ready to run an errand. 

Maybe Josh ran the errand to have some 'alone time'.

[all fall down]

12 minutes ago, farmgal4 said:

Where did you finding the memo?

Both sentencing memos are here

The defense one is just very eye-rolly as noted in this thread. 

The prosecution one contains descriptions of the CSAM, so proceed at your own risk.

 

[Lady Whistleup]

I'm rereading Michelle's letter and what's striking is that there is a lack of any personal affection for Josh. It reads like a letter of recommendation from a teacher who doesn't really know what to say about a student. A few platitudes but very impersonal.

I remember watching Louise Bundy talk about Ted Bundy, and there was so much pain in her voice. You felt her horror, shock, and (yes) maternal love for Ted. That's really missing in Michelle's letter.

I think the Duggars are atrocious parents but I see some burnout in Michelle's letter. 

[emmawoodhouse]

I don't know what Meech would be burnt out from. She hasn't been a mother to any of the children she gave  birth to save the very oldest. She was completely checked out by the time of the laundry room breakdown.

Smuggar was her favorite. Imagine the letter she would write for, say, Jason.

Edited May 13, 2022 by emmawoodhouse

[Heathen]

8 minutes ago, emmawoodhouse said:

I don't know what Meech would be burnt out from. She hasn't been a mother to any of the children she gave  birth to save the very oldest. She was completely checked out by the time of the laundry room breakdown.

Smuggar was her favorite. Imagine the letter she would write for, say, Jason.

"We have a Jason?" 

@hathorlive, is there a way for the judge to order counseling for the M kids and their mother? 

Edited May 13, 2022 by Heathen
Change words

[farmgal4]

15 hours ago, farmgal4 said:

Where did you finding the memo?

N/M

Edited May 13, 2022 by farmgal4

[quarks]

Nicole Burgess's entire letter is a lot to process, what between the goat pasture; the claim that Josh has traveled internationally to help needy people; the inadvertent admission that Josh really is annoying/exhausting at parties; the birth story (lots going on there); the saga of Josh's fellow inmate who was completely cured of alcoholism after speaking with Josh in jail, went to church for six weeks and then died of Covid (like, I sorta kinda get where she was going with this, but I would have advised her to leave this particular anecdote out); the insistence that his other fellow innates are so impressed by Josh that he is able to recruit their families to attend his church and they are telling him that he's innocent; and that she wants the judge to allow Josh the joy of ministering to his family and others.

As I said, a lot to process.

It also seems that Nicole Burgess is spending quite a bit of time with Anna and the kids - and, despite all of her "isn't Josh wonderful?" stuff here, has been concerned enough to ask her kids frequent questions about the M kids. I am kinda sorta wondering if the land deal was also meant in part as payment to her for picking up some of the slack with the M kids and supervising Anna.

[Lady Whistleup]

28 minutes ago, emmawoodhouse said:

I don't know what Meech would be burnt out from. She hasn't been a mother to any of the children she gave  birth to save the very oldest. She was completely checked out by the time of the laundry room breakdown.

Smuggar was her favorite. Imagine the letter she would write for, say, Jason.

I imagine being a parent to Josh has to be very trying.

[Absolom]

Just now, Lady Whistleup said:

I imagine being a parent to Josh has to be very trying.

At the least emotionally exhausting.

[hathorlive]

23 minutes ago, Heathen said:

"We have a Jason?" 

@hathorlive, is there a way for the judge to order counseling for the M kids and their mother? 

That I am not sure about.  I think someone can definitely make a referral.  But that's outside of my knowledge.  

[Absolom]

I think we've discussed that before, the general opinion was that ordering counseling for other than the defendant would have to come from social services.  

[Heathen]

7 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

That I am not sure about.  I think someone can definitely make a referral.  But that's outside of my knowledge.  

That question was mostly meant to stay on topic. But I do hope Anna and the M kids get counseling. Even if you leave out the why, their father is going to prison. That's a tough thing for any kid to deal with (I speak from unfortunate experience). 

[all fall down]

Question for @hathorlive is there a reason that during the prosecution's discussion of a pattern of behavior, that they couldn't bring up the Ashley Madison stuff and his admissions of (legal) pornography viewing/addiction? Was it because that stuff wasn't part of the trial? I would think if any person is able to write a letter on behalf of FF about things not specificall related to the trial, that the government could use his own words to show the opposite. 
Just curious. 

[cmr2014]

11 hours ago, Gemma Violet said:

Here's the Burress letter in case anyone hasn't seen it.  It starts on page 2:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CddnazbubSG/

I get a "this link is broken" message when I click on this link. Is there another way to access this?

[Quilt Fairy]

4 minutes ago, cmr2014 said:

get a "this link is broken" message when I click on this link. Is there another way to access this?

Try this one.  It's for all the letters.

[Gweilo]

1 hour ago, Heathen said:

"We have a Jason?" 

@hathorlive, is there a way for the judge to order counseling for the M kids and their mother? 

 

1 hour ago, hathorlive said:

That I am not sure about.  I think someone can definitely make a referral.  But that's outside of my knowledge.  

@hathorlive - I genuinely thought you were responding to the first part of @Heathen's post, and roleplaying being Michelle, and I was like "yep sounds about right"

[Heathen]

1 hour ago, all fall down said:

Question for @hathorlive is there a reason that during the prosecution's discussion of a pattern of behavior, that they couldn't bring up the Ashley Madison stuff and his admissions of (legal) pornography viewing/addiction? Was it because that stuff wasn't part of the trial? I would think if any person is able to write a letter on behalf of FF about things not specificall related to the trial, that the government could use his own words to show the opposite. 
Just curious. 

Adult porn and Ashley Madison accounts aren't illegal; thus, his admissions of those actions can't be held against him in court. 

[LilJen]

8 hours ago, SMama said:

It’s the only reason she had a safe delivery. I was laughing at her description of the doctors looking at her through thick glass and not going further than the doorway due to her COVID. It’s a hospital not a zoo. St. FF risked his life so her baby would go to term. 🤢🤮

I am reminded of the crowd response I would hear at Seattle Sounders soccer games back in the late 70s/early 80s when a ref made a bad call. “BULLS**T!  (clap clap) BULLS**T! (clap clap)” [repeat as desired]

[ginger90]

5 hours ago, Heathen said:

Adult porn and Ashley Madison accounts aren't illegal; thus, his admissions of those actions can't be held against him in court. 

They could be included in a  PSR though, correct?

Edited May 13, 2022 by ginger90

[Westiepeach]

I skimmed through the letters. Basically, he delivered Pepto-Bismal  to a pregnant lady to stop her contractions (?), used an alarm clock, helped clean up cracker crumbs, and took out the garbage.

Sounds like a great guy to me.

[BitterApple]

18 minutes ago, Westiepeach said:

I skimmed through the letters. Basically, he delivered Pepto-Bismal  to a pregnant lady to stop her contractions (?), used an alarm clock, helped clean up cracker crumbs, and took out the garbage.

Sounds like a great guy to me.

Anna Duggar: "At least I have a husband!!!". 🙄

[hathorlive]

9 hours ago, all fall down said:

Question for @hathorlive is there a reason that during the prosecution's discussion of a pattern of behavior, that they couldn't bring up the Ashley Madison stuff and his admissions of (legal) pornography viewing/addiction? Was it because that stuff wasn't part of the trial? I would think if any person is able to write a letter on behalf of FF about things not specificall related to the trial, that the government could use his own words to show the opposite. 
Just curious. 

This is just my opinion, as I'm not a prosecutor.  I think they left it out because it's related to adult porn, which is not illegal.  Maybe they don't want to muddy the waters by bringing up something he does that is perfectly legal.  Also, if one of the Psychologist can chime in, I don't think the DSM has ever listed pornography addiction as a recognized disorder.  So you have a lot of things that don't really add to the charges/convictions/allegations against Josh.  If that makes sense.  Yes, he's a sleaze who cheated on his wife, but the issue at hand is the victimization of children, his past sexual assaults of minors, and his downloading illegal images.  Those are all things that relate to sentencing. 

For example, I had a case where baby mama accused baby daddy of downloading CP in family court. I examined the machine as a criminal case and found no CP.  I went to family court to refute the allegations.  Baby Mama's lawyer switched from it was CP to it was really offensive porn.  I testified that really offensive porn is totally subjective and REALLY legal.  You never want to equate legal porn with child porn.  Millions of computers have porn on it. It's normal and legal.  CP is in a class of it's own.  So I think the prosecutors just wanted to focus exclusively on Josh's molestation of his sisters and the downloading of illegal CP.  In the grand scheme, outside of snark boards, Ashley Madison isn't really important.

[hathorlive]

2 hours ago, ginger90 said:

They could be included in a  PSR though, correct?

AGain, I think it's just a distraction.  The PSR should be related to his crimes, issues, and abuse of minor victims, as relating to his conviction.  Many, many people are addicted to porn.  But only a miniscule percent of those people ever look at CP.  I mean, we could say Josh was addicted to Chick fil a and that Josh is fat, and therefore, eating their food is a moral failure.  See the slippery slope? It's just irrelevant at the end of the day.  When you have a conviction and past abuse of minors, that's what you want the judge focusing on.  

Edited May 13, 2022 by hathorlive