Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[Heathen]

7 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

That I am not sure about.  I think someone can definitely make a referral.  But that's outside of my knowledge.  

That question was mostly meant to stay on topic. But I do hope Anna and the M kids get counseling. Even if you leave out the why, their father is going to prison. That's a tough thing for any kid to deal with (I speak from unfortunate experience). 

[all fall down]

Question for @hathorlive is there a reason that during the prosecution's discussion of a pattern of behavior, that they couldn't bring up the Ashley Madison stuff and his admissions of (legal) pornography viewing/addiction? Was it because that stuff wasn't part of the trial? I would think if any person is able to write a letter on behalf of FF about things not specificall related to the trial, that the government could use his own words to show the opposite. 
Just curious. 

[cmr2014]

11 hours ago, Gemma Violet said:

Here's the Burress letter in case anyone hasn't seen it.  It starts on page 2:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CddnazbubSG/

I get a "this link is broken" message when I click on this link. Is there another way to access this?

[Quilt Fairy]

4 minutes ago, cmr2014 said:

get a "this link is broken" message when I click on this link. Is there another way to access this?

Try this one.  It's for all the letters.

[Gweilo]

1 hour ago, Heathen said:

"We have a Jason?" 

@hathorlive, is there a way for the judge to order counseling for the M kids and their mother? 

 

1 hour ago, hathorlive said:

That I am not sure about.  I think someone can definitely make a referral.  But that's outside of my knowledge.  

@hathorlive - I genuinely thought you were responding to the first part of @Heathen's post, and roleplaying being Michelle, and I was like "yep sounds about right"

[Heathen]

1 hour ago, all fall down said:

Question for @hathorlive is there a reason that during the prosecution's discussion of a pattern of behavior, that they couldn't bring up the Ashley Madison stuff and his admissions of (legal) pornography viewing/addiction? Was it because that stuff wasn't part of the trial? I would think if any person is able to write a letter on behalf of FF about things not specificall related to the trial, that the government could use his own words to show the opposite. 
Just curious. 

Adult porn and Ashley Madison accounts aren't illegal; thus, his admissions of those actions can't be held against him in court. 

[LilJen]

8 hours ago, SMama said:

It’s the only reason she had a safe delivery. I was laughing at her description of the doctors looking at her through thick glass and not going further than the doorway due to her COVID. It’s a hospital not a zoo. St. FF risked his life so her baby would go to term. 🤢🤮

I am reminded of the crowd response I would hear at Seattle Sounders soccer games back in the late 70s/early 80s when a ref made a bad call. “BULLS**T!  (clap clap) BULLS**T! (clap clap)” [repeat as desired]

[ginger90]

5 hours ago, Heathen said:

Adult porn and Ashley Madison accounts aren't illegal; thus, his admissions of those actions can't be held against him in court. 

They could be included in a  PSR though, correct?

Edited May 13, 2022 by ginger90

[Westiepeach]

I skimmed through the letters. Basically, he delivered Pepto-Bismal  to a pregnant lady to stop her contractions (?), used an alarm clock, helped clean up cracker crumbs, and took out the garbage.

Sounds like a great guy to me.

[BitterApple]

18 minutes ago, Westiepeach said:

I skimmed through the letters. Basically, he delivered Pepto-Bismal  to a pregnant lady to stop her contractions (?), used an alarm clock, helped clean up cracker crumbs, and took out the garbage.

Sounds like a great guy to me.

Anna Duggar: "At least I have a husband!!!". 🙄

[hathorlive]

9 hours ago, all fall down said:

Question for @hathorlive is there a reason that during the prosecution's discussion of a pattern of behavior, that they couldn't bring up the Ashley Madison stuff and his admissions of (legal) pornography viewing/addiction? Was it because that stuff wasn't part of the trial? I would think if any person is able to write a letter on behalf of FF about things not specificall related to the trial, that the government could use his own words to show the opposite. 
Just curious. 

This is just my opinion, as I'm not a prosecutor.  I think they left it out because it's related to adult porn, which is not illegal.  Maybe they don't want to muddy the waters by bringing up something he does that is perfectly legal.  Also, if one of the Psychologist can chime in, I don't think the DSM has ever listed pornography addiction as a recognized disorder.  So you have a lot of things that don't really add to the charges/convictions/allegations against Josh.  If that makes sense.  Yes, he's a sleaze who cheated on his wife, but the issue at hand is the victimization of children, his past sexual assaults of minors, and his downloading illegal images.  Those are all things that relate to sentencing. 

For example, I had a case where baby mama accused baby daddy of downloading CP in family court. I examined the machine as a criminal case and found no CP.  I went to family court to refute the allegations.  Baby Mama's lawyer switched from it was CP to it was really offensive porn.  I testified that really offensive porn is totally subjective and REALLY legal.  You never want to equate legal porn with child porn.  Millions of computers have porn on it. It's normal and legal.  CP is in a class of it's own.  So I think the prosecutors just wanted to focus exclusively on Josh's molestation of his sisters and the downloading of illegal CP.  In the grand scheme, outside of snark boards, Ashley Madison isn't really important.

[hathorlive]

2 hours ago, ginger90 said:

They could be included in a  PSR though, correct?

AGain, I think it's just a distraction.  The PSR should be related to his crimes, issues, and abuse of minor victims, as relating to his conviction.  Many, many people are addicted to porn.  But only a miniscule percent of those people ever look at CP.  I mean, we could say Josh was addicted to Chick fil a and that Josh is fat, and therefore, eating their food is a moral failure.  See the slippery slope? It's just irrelevant at the end of the day.  When you have a conviction and past abuse of minors, that's what you want the judge focusing on.  

Edited May 13, 2022 by hathorlive

[cmr2014]

I would not have included the Nicole Burgess letter. While it may be over-the-top with praise of Josh's abilities (e.g looking through his ENTIRE medicine cabinet! etc.), it's kind of offensive.

In the last portion, she talks about his "Joshua's relationship with his Savior, Jesus" and italicizes "I'm not asking you to understand what a relationship with Jesus looks like." It's condescending and offensive -- and I wouldn't want to be condescending and offensive to a judge.

She mentions (and italicizes) several times what a difficult and horrific time this is for Josh. I don't expect her to go into how horrific his crimes are in a character letter, but talking about how difficult this is for him is more than a little tone-deaf. She might have wanted to stop with how hard it is on Anna and the kids.

Then, there is the final sentence" He and his family are not typical of what this world has to offer -- they are better." I have no words -- that pretty much sums up what's wrong with the Duggars and their fellow cult members in a nutshell. How anyone could think that a judge would respond to this bit of smug, self-satisfied cluelessness with anything but a hammer, I don't know.

[libgirl2]

3 minutes ago, cmr2014 said:

Then, there is the final sentence" He and his family are not typical of what this world has to offer -- they are better." I have no words -- that pretty much sums up what's wrong with the Duggars and their fellow cult members in a nutshell. How anyone could think that a judge would respond to this bit of smug, self-satisfied cluelessness with anything but a hammer, I don't know.

How very Christian of her. I thought Jesus loved us all equally. 

[Minivanessa]

21 minutes ago, cmr2014 said:

How anyone could think that a judge would respond to this bit of smug, self-satisfied cluelessness with anything but a hammer, I don't know.

I don't either. Remember, the judge sentences people all. the. time. I can't imagine how many sentencing reports, statements, and letters he must review in an average month. He probably sees letters like this - and even worse - very often. He's entitled to make his own determination as to how much credibility to give to these letters. I suspect the defense lawyers included the letter at the insistence of their client - who probably thinks the glowing (incandescent, actually!) praise will help persuade the judge in the direction of leniency. 

Down the line from now, after Josh has been cooling his heels in federal lockup for awhile, he won't be able to claim "my lawyers had POWERFUL letters on my behalf but refused to submit them to the judge at sentencing, and therefore I got a longer sentence." The lawyers ain't stupid; they're inoculating the case against a malpractice claim. ETA: That last sentence was a bit cynical although I believe it to be true. It can also be said - less cynically - that the lawyers are fulfilling their duty to their client to present the letters on his behalf that he wants. 

Edited May 13, 2022 by Jeeves

[merylinkid]

33 minutes ago, cmr2014 said:

How anyone could think that a judge would respond to this bit of smug, self-satisfied cluelessness with anything but a hammer, I don't know.

In their little world?   yeah, they really believe a judge will read that and go "Oh he has a personal relationship with Jesus and is better than everyone else, forget the sentencing guidelines send him home."   Because in their world, worshipping the right Jesus lets you do whatever you want and the people who don't worship the right Jesus, don't get to say otherwise.

It's right in line with JB's "I'm not going to allow that" at the hearing.    

What they do not get is that the Judge is in charge in the courtroom, not them.    Narcissistic people are always very surprised at the outcome of court cases.

[hathorlive]

Part 3:  

Enhancement B:  For material that portrays ...(Trigger wording excluded) or other depictions of violence.

• Duggar's attorneys object to his enhancement by stating "the evidence does not even arguably support the application of this enhancement".  This is the lamest rebuttal I've ever read in a legal document. The videos are ones I've seen and while most are humdrum for people in my field, there are some images and videos that are horrific and fit the exact criteria perfectly. Duggar's attorney's have no way to refute this and it shows.
• Government has a footnote here saying despite the above statement, the defense sought a "pre-trial motion prohibiting law enforcement witnesses from commenting on the graphically violent nature of certain material at issue in this case as compared to other CP."
• The prosecution cites court rulings that ruled images such as were found on Josh's computer fit the enhancement. 
• Starting on page 9, the government lists specific videos and images, describes the sexual content of each, and how that fits the enhancement.
• The triggering material continues on pages 10 and 11.

Josh is screwed on this enhancement.  The videos in his possession fit the enhancement perfectly.  There was nothing his lawyers could do on this one.  And he does deserve to roast in hell for what he downloaded.  But again, I've had these same images in cases and judges have never added the enhancements to the sentence. Or maybe they were starting at 5 years and worked their way up to 10 and 13 years, using the enhancements.  I don't know.  

[CountryGirl]

I just cannot with the pleas for leniency or mercy from all of these God-botherers. 

Where did inmate ever show mercy for any of his victims, including those whom he sexually abused or those he revictimized in the viewing of the child sexual abuse imagery and videos?

[farmgal4]

I finally read all of the letters to the judge and the prosecution’s recommendation letter, that included the atrocities that Josh enjoyed viewing.  I would like for everyone, who sent the judge a letter praising Josh, to read the prosecution’s letter, and then I would like to ask each of them this question:  Would you allow your children or grandchildren to be alone with this man?

[libgirl2]

15 minutes ago, farmgal4 said:

I finally read all of the letters to the judge and the prosecution’s recommendation letter, that included the atrocities that Josh enjoyed viewing.  I would like for everyone, who sent the judge a letter praising Josh, to read the prosecution’s letter, and then I would like to ask each of them this question:  Would you allow your children or grandchildren to be alone with this man?

They should be made to see the pictures and watch the videos to know what true victims are. 

[Dr.OO7]

12 minutes ago, farmgal4 said:

Would you allow your children or grandchildren to be alone with this man?

Talk about an Armor Piercing Question.

It never fails to sicken me how whenever someone is accused of a sexual crime, people will rally behind the accused rather than the victim. I can understand the cognitive dissonance somewhat--"But he's such a nice guy! I can't imagine that he'd do something like this!"--but it's still stunning. They KNOW that he did these despicable things and yet they still insist on waxing rhapsodic about what a wonderful man he is. It's frightening to think that someone could walk in on him outright molesting a child and probably still make excuses for him. 

[Tuxcat]

37 minutes ago, Albanyguy said:

know nothing about childbirth, but would a slug of Pepto Bismol really stop contractions that are coming a minute apart? At that point, isn't the baby coming, no matter what?

 

She stretched a few truths to make one giant unbelievable leap. It's possible her diarrhea caused some level of dehydration. Dehydration can make the uterus "irritable" and can result in contractions. Whether or not those contractions are actually changing the cervix (thinning out or dilating) is the question. You can have rehearsal like contractions with no changes at all - meaning no true labor. So for her to say that Josh is the reason she delivered at "full term" is - well - ridiculous. It's also likely she was very close to full term anyway because if she was truly pre-term and contracting the doctor would not have just looked at her through thick glass and sent her home.

It seems Josh is a miracle worker though as he is able to cure alcoholism and turn hardened criminals into disciples. The judge should want to keep him there so he can continue the Lord's work.

 

[Rabbittron]

1 hour ago, CountryGirl said:

 

Where did inmate ever show mercy for any of his victims, including those whom he sexually abused or those he revictimized in the viewing of the child sexual abuse imagery and videos?

Just remember that FF in his own mind didn't do anything wrong because of the fact that there were no real kids involved Just still photos and movies of kids.

[GeeGolly]

3 minutes ago, Rabbittron said:

Just remember that FF in his own mind didn't do anything wrong because of the fact that there were no real kids involved Just still photos and movies of kids.

OMG, he said that?!?

[libgirl2]

4 minutes ago, Rabbittron said:

Just remember that FF in his own mind didn't do anything wrong because of the fact that there were no real kids involved Just still photos and movies of kids.

🤬

[hathorlive]

Part 4:  enhancement C: Engaging in a pattern of activity involving the sexual abuse of minors.

• Duggar objects to this enhancement being applied saying "the court should find these acts of molestations did not occur and that, even if they did, the court should disregard them because they occurred years ago.  (Oh boy...)
• Government sates contrary to Duggar's claims, both his father and Bobbyeeeeeee Holt testified about the sexual abuse acts he now denies.  And that activity of abuse is more than sufficient to support applying this enhancement.
• Government cites that sections of the guidelines state a pattern of abuse as any combination of 2 or more separate instances of abuse or exploitation of the minor by the defendant.  
• Lots of footnotes with graphic details of what a sexual act is, with one applying to 12 and below and the other relating to under 16.
• Government cites testimony regarding Josh's repeated acts of child molestation that qualifies as the "sexual abuse or exploitation of a minor".
• Gov specifically notes Bobyeeeeeee Holt's testimony, where she said Josh confessed to 

Spoiler

touching 2 inappropriate areas of the female body on victims 1, 2 and3 multiple times, over and under clothes, while the victims were asleep AND awake.

• Government notes her testimony included that Josh started touching his victims when he was 12.
• Government footnotes say that what Josh did constitutes sexual assault in the 2nd degree, under Arkansas law.
• Bobyeeeee Hold testified that Josh confessed to a sex act (I'm redacted the actual words, which are MUCH MUCH worse than JB and Meech offered Megyn Kelly) on victim 4, which again fits the enhancement both in age and in sex act performed.
• Government cites JB's testimony as one of "selective memory" (LOL) but that he too confirmed that Josh sexual abused/touched 4 victims.
• Footnotes include that the list of victim's identifies is under seal and a second one noted that In the Megyn Kelly interview on FOX, JB and Mech specially recalled Josh inappropriately touched 2 areas of the body on multiple victims at least 3 times.
• Government notes that when the J girls sued various state and local agencies for disclosing their sexual abuse, and when Josh later sued the same agencies, he swore to a statement of facts that described his sexual abuse. 
• Basically, they are saying that in multiple attempts to sue the agencies, the girls and Josh noted they were sexually abused by him and that he agreed to those facts.  (So, why is he saying the abuse never happened? Karma is a bitch).
• The government notes Josh's arguments that he was a minor an not convicted of that crime hold no water because they have case law from the 8th circuit (where AR is) where a convicted perp had past acts of sexual abuse of minors applied via the enhancement.  They also note that the court has not set temporal limits on past abuse, and the age of the abuse would  not affect the enhancement being triggered. 
• Government notes that while they are not seeking an upward departure, Josh's pattern of abuse certainly qualifies for such.  An upward departure is where a judge has circumstances that allow him to go above and beyond the 20 year sentencing maximum.  Wowsers.

Okay, that's my summary. I apologize for any typos or missing words.  My fingers are numb from typing all morning.  All summaries are my thoughts, based on 1 year of law school, and 17 years as an expert witness in this field.  I am NOT a lawyer, so please forgive any misinterpretations of what is being said.   Also, I'm trying to be very careful with wording that may trigger people.  If I am not doing a good enough job, please let me know Mods.  I hope these summaries are helpful since the warnings were dire about the content. 

Thoughts on the document:  I have a lot of respect for these prosecutors.  I've never met a bad AUSA but wow.  These guys have laid a brilliant trap for Josh.  I thought Bobyeeeee's testimony was to influence the jury that Josh was a perv.  Now I realize that they were laying the groundwork for the enhancements. Excellent writing, excellent examples of case law.  Their argument is powerful and undercuts everything that Josh's attorneys are trying to say.   And what's beautiful is that are using the Duggar's own actions and words to get Josh a longer sentence.  It's not often we see divine justice hit someone between the eyes, but that's what we have here, folks.  JB lies and covers up the abuse, "running the clock out".  Since they didn't handle it in juvy court, the documents weren't sealed.  In touch releases said documents, the Duggar's go on national TV, admitting that Josh likes to touch little girls, and formalizing his guilt.  The family brings lawsuits that discuss the abuse, testifying to it as facts.  And now Josh is convicted of a crime where these actions may get him a sentence toward 15 years, where as most people doing this same crime get around 8 years.

 

[cmr2014]

I was thinking about the letters, and Josh's "ministry."

Nicole Burgess wrote: "He and his family are not typical of what this world has to offer -- they are better."

Josh is literally not even "better" than the majority of people in the same prison. Most people in county jail are incarcerated for relatively minor crimes like drug and alcohol related offenses and petty theft.

Josh is a felon who committed a henious crime and is awaiting transfer to Federal prison. I would expect the prison to segregate the serious felons from the general population.

[Minivanessa]

3 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

Thoughts on the document:  I have a lot of respect for these prosecutors.  I've never met a bad AUSA but wow.  These guys have laid a brilliant trap for Josh.  . . .   they were laying the groundwork for the enhancements. . . .  And what's beautiful is that are using the Duggar's own actions and words to get Josh a longer sentence.  It's not often we see divine justice hit someone between the eyes, but that's what we have here, folks.  JB lies and covers up the abuse, "running the clock out".  Since they didn't handle it in juvy court, the documents weren't sealed.  In touch releases said documents, the Duggar's go on national TV, admitting that Josh likes to touch little girls, and formalizing his guilt.  The family brings lawsuits that discuss the abuse, testifying to it as facts.  And now Josh is convicted of a crime where these actions may get him a sentence toward 15 years, where as most people doing this same crime get around 8 years.

First: I'm sending your weary fingers a virtual massage treatment + a couple of adult beverages of your choice. Thanks for your painstaking and very helpful review of these documents!

Next: I have so much love for your recap above that I just had to quote it.

And, set against that recap of the FACTS, here's the final sentence of the Bogus Burress letter to the court: "[Josh] and his family are not typical of what this world has to offer -- they are better." 

I think that leghumping will ring as hollow to the judge as it does to us. 

[Rootbeer]

19 hours ago, cmr2014 said:

I think that she wrote it. It's stuffed full of Gothard-speak:

"My heart is to share . . ."

"He is wise financially -- saving money for the future and purposing not to go into debt."

"One example of his heart to help others . . ."

"Joshua is a loving and patient man, striving to be a blessing . . .:

One thing that sets it apart of the obligatory birthday messages, is that I think she actually gives a shit about Josh. She probably spent months, rather than minutes, putting it together. Perhaps someone in the law office (or David Waller?) did some proof-reading, but it's very much her voice.

I think Michelle wrote it, but probably some underling at the law firm was given the task of cleaning it up a little.  The words are Michelle's though as are the exclamation points and hearts.  Having attended a regular high school with regular English classes, her grammar is not as appalling as that of many of her children.

[Ijustwantsomechips]

Just now, Rootbeer said:

Having attended a regular high school with regular English classes, her grammar is not as appalling as that of many of her children.

That’s because Michelle isn’t dumb (for lack of a better term). She’s just stupid.

[libgirl2]

3 minutes ago, Rootbeer said:

I think Michelle wrote it, but probably some underling at the law firm was given the task of cleaning it up a little.  The words are Michelle's though as are the exclamation points and hearts.  Having attended a regular high school with regular English classes, her grammar is not as appalling as that of many of her children.

That is because she at least went to HS unlike  her kids. 

Edited May 13, 2022 by libgirl2

[hathorlive]

3 minutes ago, Jeeves said:

First: I'm sending your weary fingers a virtual massage treatment + a couple of adult beverages of your choice. Thanks for your painstaking and very helpful review of these documents!

Next: I have so much love for your recap above that I just had to quote it.

And, set against that recap of the FACTS, here's the final sentence of the Bogus Burress letter to the court: "[Josh] and his family are not typical of what this world has to offer -- they are better." 

I think that leghumping will ring as hollow to the judge as it does to us. 

Thank you for the adult drinks.  I had a car accident and have a bit of nerve damage that makes my typing a mess lately.  I truly appreciate clever people and these prosecutors are clever.  They laid this case out so well.  And they are using the TESTIMONY of people to nail Josh.  Not rumors.  Not In Touch. Sworn testimony.  It's truly brilliant work.  I wish my AUSA's had worked this hard to get enhancements enforced.

The judge reads these letters on a regular basis.  He will know a) how hollow they are and b) that no one writing them has any empathy for the victims. No concern, no worries.  It's all  about Joshy.  And the Duggar family image.

[Zella]

I've honestly seen people who went to high school who have no clue how to use grammar or punctuation, either, so I don't think that automatically grants Michelle writing ability. Some of the worst writing I've ever seen was from a former boss who went to public school. LOL 

Edited May 13, 2022 by Zella

[hathorlive]

2 hours ago, libgirl2 said:

How very Christian of her. I thought Jesus loved us all equally. 

All Christians are equal but some Christians are more equal than others???

[libgirl2]

18 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

All Christians are equal but some Christians are more equal than others???

No, they are better. God loves them first. 

[GeeGolly]

I'm not saying all folks in prison are scum, but if God has a seating plan in heaven a lot of these "Christians" will be sharing their section with a good many born again prisoners.

[Cinnabon]

3 hours ago, hathorlive said:

This is just my opinion, as I'm not a prosecutor.  I think they left it out because it's related to adult porn, which is not illegal.  Maybe they don't want to muddy the waters by bringing up something he does that is perfectly legal.  Also, if one of the Psychologist can chime in, I don't think the DSM has ever listed pornography addiction as a recognized disorder.  So you have a lot of things that don't really add to the charges/convictions/allegations against Josh.  If that makes sense.  Yes, he's a sleaze who cheated on his wife, but the issue at hand is the victimization of children, his past sexual assaults of minors, and his downloading illegal images.  Those are all things that relate to sentencing. 

For example, I had a case where baby mama accused baby daddy of downloading CP in family court. I examined the machine as a criminal case and found no CP.  I went to family court to refute the allegations.  Baby Mama's lawyer switched from it was CP to it was really offensive porn.  I testified that really offensive porn is totally subjective and REALLY legal.  You never want to equate legal porn with child porn.  Millions of computers have porn on it. It's normal and legal.  CP is in a class of it's own.  So I think the prosecutors just wanted to focus exclusively on Josh's molestation of his sisters and the downloading of illegal CP.  In the grand scheme, outside of snark boards, Ashley Madison isn't really important.

Jessa needs to hear this.

14 hours ago, farmgal4 said:

ETA: It needs to removed IMO.

From Reddit?

2 hours ago, libgirl2 said:

They should be made to see the pictures and watch the videos to know what true victims are. 

They really, really should. Especially Anna.

[farmgal4]

5 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

Jessa needs to hear this.

From Reddit?

My bad.  I thought it was something else entirely.  Please disregard.

[Cinnabon]

2 hours ago, Tuxcat said:

She stretched a few truths to make one giant unbelievable leap. It's possible her diarrhea caused some level of dehydration. Dehydration can make the uterus "irritable" and can result in contractions. Whether or not those contractions are actually changing the cervix (thinning out or dilating) is the question. You can have rehearsal like contractions with no changes at all - meaning no true labor. So for her to say that Josh is the reason she delivered at "full term" is - well - ridiculous. It's also likely she was very close to full term anyway because if she was truly pre-term and contracting the doctor would not have just looked at her through thick glass and sent her home.

It seems Josh is a miracle worker though as he is able to cure alcoholism and turn hardened criminals into disciples. The judge should want to keep him there so he can continue the Lord's work.

 

Maybe she should’ve stayed away from the hospital and that inconsiderate doctor and asked Josh to deliver the baby, too.

[SMama]

I don’t think Deanna is buying those glowing letters.

Interesting…

[SMama]

[SMama]

Deanna is very upset. And to think JB spent decades talking about his sister’s mistakes while aiding and abetting a pedophile.

[libgirl2]

7 minutes ago, SMama said:

Deanna is very upset. And to think JB spent decades talking about his sister’s mistakes while aiding and abetting a pedophile.

I don't blame her. 

[Cinnabon]

1 minute ago, libgirl2 said:

I don't blame her. 

Me either.

[madpsych78]

3 hours ago, hathorlive said:

This is just my opinion, as I'm not a prosecutor.  I think they left it out because it's related to adult porn, which is not illegal.  Maybe they don't want to muddy the waters by bringing up something he does that is perfectly legal.  Also, if one of the Psychologist can chime in, I don't think the DSM has ever listed pornography addiction as a recognized disorder.  So you have a lot of things that don't really add to the charges/convictions/allegations against Josh.  If that makes sense.  Yes, he's a sleaze who cheated on his wife, but the issue at hand is the victimization of children, his past sexual assaults of minors, and his downloading illegal images.  Those are all things that relate to sentencing. 

For example, I had a case where baby mama accused baby daddy of downloading CP in family court. I examined the machine as a criminal case and found no CP.  I went to family court to refute the allegations.  Baby Mama's lawyer switched from it was CP to it was really offensive porn.  I testified that really offensive porn is totally subjective and REALLY legal.  You never want to equate legal porn with child porn.  Millions of computers have porn on it. It's normal and legal.  CP is in a class of it's own.  So I think the prosecutors just wanted to focus exclusively on Josh's molestation of his sisters and the downloading of illegal CP.  In the grand scheme, outside of snark boards, Ashley Madison isn't really important.

Psychologist here - porn addition has never been included in any version of the DSM up through the fifth edition, although the DSM-5-TR has just been released so I'm not sure about that version. 

That being said, the DSM-5 has a chapter on Substance Use and Addictive Disorders. While one subchapter focuses on addictions to alcohol and drugs, another subchapter focuses more on behavioral addictions. The most prominent behavioral addiction that is in the DSM-5 is Gambling Disorder. They have also proposed Internet Gaming Disorder (i.e., addiction to playing games on the internet) as a "condition for further study." 

Here's the thing though: Even though it's not explicitly listed in the DSM-5, which is more likely to be used in the United States, the latest edition of the International Classification of Diseases (ICD), which is more likely to be used across the world, is proposing the inclusion of "Compulsive Sexual Behavior Disorder" which would include porn addiction. 

At the end of the day, to me, addiction has a similar underlying component even if the source of the addiction may be different from person to person. It is about that need to keep reinforcing the pleasure pathways of the brain.

In the DSM-5, there are a group of sexual disorders. Some have to do with sexual dysfunction, which wouldn't apply here. Others are paraphilias which may apply here (i.e., pedophilia, voyeurism, etc.). But they don't necessarily have to involve pornography (or addiction, for that matter).

[GeeGolly]

I for one don't believe anything Deanna and Amy say about not knowing about the molestations. Strangers in the community knew about them. Church members knew. Josh disappeared for 6 months. Its been hinted at in tabloids for years. And Amy and Deanna have been hanging with JB & M long after the molestations were outed and confirmed.

[libgirl2]

8 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

Me either.

I know that her and Amy benefitted from the show but somehow I get a feeling they had to take a lot of "sinner" talk and were made to feel not quite good enough or as we can now say "better". 

[SMama]

Just now, GeeGolly said:

I for one don't believe anything Deanna and Amy say about not knowing about the molestations. Strangers in the community knew about them. Church members knew. Josh disappeared for 6 months. Its been hinted at in tabloids for years. And Amy and Deanna have been hanging with JB & M long after the molestations were outed and confirmed.

But did they know the extent, the graphic details, what really happened to five year old Joy? YMMV

[GeeGolly]

Just now, SMama said:

But did they know the extent, the graphic details, what really happened to five year old Joy? YMMV

Not sure why that would matter. Deanna said she would have helped the sisters. She would only want to help if the molestations went beyond touching?

[Cinnabon]

5 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

I for one don't believe anything Deanna and Amy say about not knowing about the molestations. Strangers in the community knew about them. Church members knew. Josh disappeared for 6 months. Its been hinted at in tabloids for years. And Amy and Deanna have been hanging with JB & M long after the molestations were outed and confirmed.

They may not have known the explicit details and the extent of it, though.