Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[Arwen Evenstar]

15 minutes ago, Rabbittron said:

We have to remember that in Gothard land it was Anna's fault for Smuggargate 2.0.

The way this church treats women makes me physically ill as well as stabby! You would think since our wombs are the vessels that carry the blessings that we'd receive some sort of veneration...sorry...wrong church...

[Missy Vixen]

10 hours ago, JoanArc said:

Or #5 - Oral. Pretty sure Josh learned all the tricks.

She's giving. He's declining to.

And yeah, I said it.

[Arwen Evenstar]

10 hours ago, JoanArc said:

Or #5 - Oral. Pretty sure Josh learned all the tricks.

 

23 minutes ago, Missy Vixen said:

She's giving. He's declining to.

And yeah, I said it.

I wondered about the same thing.  It would be too much to ask that there be any sexual pleasure in it for Anna. Vile, vile Smuggar.

[lulu69]

2 hours ago, Arwen Evenstar said:

 

I wondered about the same thing.  It would be too much to ask that there be any sexual pleasure in it for Anna. Vile, vile Smuggar.

Her pleasure comes when she gets to birth another soldier in God's army

[Churchhoney]

 i

15 hours ago, Tabbygirl521 said:

We don't actually know that she isn't pregnant, right? I know it would be odd for them not to announce it, but this is uncharted territory, to say the least. 

Why do people in unpleasant life circumstances agree to bare it all in TV?? Ugh, sorry for the choice of words. But really. WTH. It is weird enough for most reality show people but when the whole world is watching a humiliating struggle - ugh. 

In the words of the perceptive O'Jays --

For the love of money
People will steal from their mother
For the love of money
People will rob their own brother
For the love of money
People can't even walk the street
Because they never know
Who in the world they're gonna beat
For that lean, mean, mean green
Almighty dollar, money

For the love of money
People will lie, Lord, they will cheat
For the love of money
People don't care who they hurt or beat
For the love of money
A woman will sell her precious body
For a small piece of paper
It carries a lot of weight
Call it lean, mean, mean green

Almighty dollar

I know money is the root of all evil
Do funny things to some people
Give me a nickel, brother can you spare a dime
Money can drive some people out of their minds
 

[Lemur]

On 9/4/2016 at 11:13 PM, Arwen Evenstar said:

 

I wondered about the same thing.  It would be too much to ask that there be any sexual pleasure in it for Anna. Vile, vile Smuggar.

Allegedly, it's not all about procreation though it is the majority of it.  If will recall, JB gave Josh a manual by a certain Dr. Wheat and wife on his wedding day.  I believe, though I may be incorrect, that it was this:

https://www.amazon.com/Intended-Pleasure-Technique-Fulfillment-Christian-ebook/dp/B0080K3LQM/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1473169989&sr=1-4#nav-subnav

Edited September 6, 2016 by Lemur
I'm at work, so any further research into this may well send me to HR.

[Arwen Evenstar]

I think that book was more for Anna than Josh, though at the time JB had to make it look like Josh knew nothing. I guess JB regarded the book as "porn" for unmarrieds, so it gets shoved under their nose right before the wedding.  IIRC, they were having to watch an instructional vid while they were being driven to their motel room. No doubt it was all over with in 30 seconds or less.

Edited September 6, 2016 by Arwen Evenstar

[Sew Sumi]

2 hours ago, Lemur said:

Allegedly, it's not all about procreation though it is the majority of it.  If will recall, JB gave Josh a manual by a certain Dr. Wheat and wife on his wedding day.  I believe, though I may be incorrect, that it was this:

https://www.amazon.com/Intended-Pleasure-Technique-Fulfillment-Christian-ebook/dp/B0080K3LQM/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1473169989&sr=1-4#nav-subnav

Yes, that's their sex manual. However, its drawing of female anatomy is missing the most crucial element for female pleasure. 

Gotta love the patriarchy.

[Arwen Evenstar]

You just can't help wanting to smack your head.

[NewDigs]

Did they offer the same "guidance" to Jill and Jessa?

How embarrassing. And sad.

I wonder if they know that they're supposed to experience pleasure.

Nah. (Gotta lay off the beer.)

[Churchhoney]

4 hours ago, NewDigs said:

Did they offer the same "guidance" to Jill and Jessa?

How embarrassing. And sad.

I wonder if they know that they're supposed to experience pleasure.

Nah. (Gotta lay off the beer.)

Michelle's advice to Jessa. Don't worry. Sex doesn't take long.

[Aja]

Lie back and think of Arkansas.

[Lemur]

14 hours ago, Churchhoney said:

Michelle's advice to Jessa. Don't worry. Sex doesn't take long.

"You'll hardly feel it after the fifth pregnancy."

I'll see myself out ...

[Churchhoney]

4 hours ago, Aja said:

Lie back and think of Arkansas.

Lie back and think of Bill Gothard.

That ought to kill off any faint hints of the potential of something vaguely pleasurable about the act that might still lurk in any of the women. (while reminding them of their sacred duty, of course)

Edited September 7, 2016 by Churchhoney

[Tabbygirl521]

44 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

Lie back and think of Bill Gothard.

That ought to kill off any faint hints of the potential of something vaguely pleasurable about the act that might still lurk in any of the women. (while reminding them of their sacred duty, of course)

**retch**

[DXD526]

Quote

Yes, that's their sex manual. However, its drawing of female anatomy is missing the most crucial element for female pleasure. 

You must remember, for fundies, female sexuality isn't really a "thing". There's only one model of sexuality available if you're female: a married woman, having sex with her husband, the manner and frequency of which to be determined by said husband. And no birth control, 'cause gawd. That's it for females in fundyland. That's all they have to look forward to. And that's what's been taught to people like Anna, who very likely never even thought about sexual pleasure, only the pleasure of doing 'wifely duty' and popping out warriors for gawd's army. 

[Jynnan tonnix]

7 hours ago, DXD526 said:

You must remember, for fundies, female sexuality isn't really a "thing". There's only one model of sexuality available if you're female: a married woman, having sex with her husband, the manner and frequency of which to be determined by said husband. And no birth control, 'cause gawd. That's it for females in fundyland. That's all they have to look forward to. And that's what's been taught to people like Anna, who very likely never even thought about sexual pleasure, only the pleasure of doing 'wifely duty' and popping out warriors for gawd's army. 

It may not be a "thing", per se, but they do still have some active hormones and lots of built up frustration...They do seem to look forward very much to finally be able to do something about it, even if they have only the barest idea of the actual mechanisms involved. If they do have genuine chemistry, I'm sure they will find it pleasurable even without the advanced techniques. Hopefully some of those will come in time. I can't imagine that it would boil down to nothing more than a "wifely duty" quite so fast...at least not until after the first few kids come along.

[Malvina]

[fuzzylollipop]

That poor child is the spitting image of Josh!

[BitterApple]

I think Spurge is going to be Mikey's twin as he gets older. They both look like a blend of Josh and Boob. I still see a lot of Keller in Marcus, although I think he's going to lean towards his Duggar side as he ages.

Edited September 9, 2016 by BitterApple

[ginger90]

Did they forget the grandchildren's names??

[Absolom]

Marcus looks Keller through and through to me in that photo.  There's a lot of Josh in Michael in his looks.

[drafan]

Hope the little Ms aren't getting duded up for the filming of their parent's "vow renewal". Gag.

((And who wrote the caption ??? JB , natch . "Strapping " ? Told ya he's been watching reruns of The Andy Griffith Show. And of course, "strapping" would only apply to boys.))

Edited September 9, 2016 by drafan

[Celia Rubenstein]

I think the older one looks a lot like Anna, but he got Josh's nose (thank goodness).

[GeeGolly]

Wedding attire?

[Malvina]

[awaken]

2 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

Wedding attire?

Hmmm, now I'm wondering why those strapping grandsons were all dressed up!  I'm sure we will see it on an episode not too far in the future.

1 minute ago, Malvina said:

Kind of funny to me that they're playing cards, since when I was growing up fundie, cards were always taboo as that looks too similar to gambling!  Yet in our sect, conservative as it was, girls and women actually wore shorts and bathing suits when appropriate, had jobs, went to college, pursued hobbies, etc.  Just funny to me how certain sects pick and choose what is of the devil and what's not.  I'm guessing that years ago, cards would not have been ok in the Duggar house and they've loosened their stance.

[GeeGolly]

The pic of Josie: first she is playing with boys, and second, she is playing with the younger kids. Hmmm.

[queenanne]

1 hour ago, awaken said:

Hmmm, now I'm wondering why those strapping grandsons were all dressed up!  I'm sure we will see it on an episode not too far in the future.

Kind of funny to me that they're playing cards, since when I was growing up fundie, cards were always taboo as that looks too similar to gambling!  Yet in our sect, conservative as it was, girls and women actually wore shorts and bathing suits when appropriate, had jobs, went to college, pursued hobbies, etc.  Just funny to me how certain sects pick and choose what is of the devil and what's not.  I'm guessing that years ago, cards would not have been ok in the Duggar house and they've loosened their stance.

Agreed, but it looks like they're playing Concentration... nu?  Which clearly doesn't involve gambling.  That said, I think some sects think the actual act of moving the cards about is OK as long as you don't play with money.  I used to have a group of friends whose stake was $5, and I remember a relative acting sanctimoniously appalled that nickel, dime, and quarter bets were involved.  Me:   "Really, you think that is any worse than playing with buttons?  We're barely playing with money.  We're certainly not winning enough money to create gambling addicts."  Ms. Holier Than Thou:  "Why, can't you then just play with buttons for counters?" *rolleyes*

[magpye29]

My family likes to play the NOT fun card games; thanks for asking. Dumb question. Should have just asked, What card games does your family like to play?

[awaken]

Oh my goodness, we'd never have been allowed to use nickels, dimes, etc or have any semblance of betting!  That is giving the devil a foothold- next step would be gambling for real in Atlantic City!!  Yet crazily we saw all kinds of mainstream tv, and movies in theaters.  So bizarre how they pick and choose.  

[Tabbygirl521]

5 hours ago, Malvina said:

My first husband was raised Southern Baptist - his dad was a preacher - and he told me they were taught that cards are the "Devil's Pasteboards." WTH? (I mean, what the hell is a pasteboard?)

Edited September 10, 2016 by Tabbygirl521

[Jynnan tonnix]

3 hours ago, magpye29 said:

My family likes to play the NOT fun card games; thanks for asking. Dumb question. Should have just asked, What card games does your family like to play?

I've never liked card games at all, though I do love various types of solitaire. My parents always loved to play Bridge. I CAN manage Hearts if I can have a chance to warm up with a computer-based version, but have embarrassed myself by ending up in tears more than once by not being able to grasp the rules of a seemingly simple card game when playing with friends. Thus I steer clear of cards whenever I can.

[babyhouseman]

4 hours ago, queenanne said:

Agreed, but it looks like they're playing Concentration... nu?  Which clearly doesn't involve gambling.  That said, I think some sects think the actual act of moving the cards about is OK as long as you don't play with money.  I used to have a group of friends whose stake was $5, and I remember a relative acting sanctimoniously appalled that nickel, dime, and quarter bets were involved.  Me:   "Really, you think that is any worse than playing with buttons?  We're barely playing with money.  We're certainly not winning enough money to create gambling addicts."  Ms. Holier Than Thou:  "Why, can't you then just play with buttons for counters?" *rolleyes*

This reminds me of when my grandmother and her friend were playing cards in the hospital when my grandfather was sick. Their Free Will Baptist minister came in and the friend sat on her cards thinking it was a sin. lol He was OK with it as long as there's no gambling involved. 

[queenanne]

1 hour ago, Tabbygirl521 said:

My first husband was raised Southern Baptist - his dad was a preacher - and he told me they were taught that cards are the "Devil's Pasteboards." WTH? (I mean, what the hell is a pasteboard?)

But, how could these people then play any games?

I mean, it clearly starts to seem, once one tries to wrap their heads around it, that the reason why "games" and "gambling" are objected to is that they involve "odds".  But then in that case you can't even play games that involve rolling for points to move around the board, because dice are also odds-based tools on which you are gambling your metaphorical gamey life.

[magpye29]

Pasteboard is what playing cards are made of--just very thin layers of paper pasted together to make a more durable material, like cardboard or card stock.

[Churchhoney]

10 hours ago, Tabbygirl521 said:

My first husband was raised Southern Baptist - his dad was a preacher - and he told me they were taught that cards are the "Devil's Pasteboards." WTH? (I mean, what the hell is a pasteboard?)

I think pasteboard is a word that used to be used for thick or stiff paper -- the kind you make playing cards or greeting cards or whatever, out of. Stiff paper used to be or maybe still is made by sticking (pasting -- but not actually using paste, I don't think) thinner sheets together until you got a stronger paper sheet. You see the word kind of a lot in older books, but now you don't see it any more. I guess we just call it "cardstock" now? Or maybe don't use a word other than "paper" at all?

ETA: day late, dollar short

Edited September 10, 2016 by Churchhoney

[Rabbittron]

I wish TWOP was still around so all of us could say that we were right about Smuggar and the sin in the camp speculation. 

[BitterApple]

38 minutes ago, Rabbittron said:

I wish TWOP was still around so all of us could say that we were right about Smuggar and the sin in the camp speculation. 

Lol, especially since You Know Who would put the smackdown on anyone who dared to bring it up.

[toodles]

1 hour ago, BitterApple said:

Lol, especially since You Know Who would put the smackdown on anyone who dared to bring it up.

Ok, I'll ask.  Who are you referring to?

[Zahdii]

6 minutes ago, toodles said:

Ok, I'll ask.  Who are you referring to?

Probably Mod Howard.  She hated all things Duggar, so I never understood why she didn't ask to moderate other forums instead.  She loved to shut down the forum for weeks at a time when someone said something wrong.  I remember she said she was going to shut down the forum if anyone mentioned one more time the Waller/Keller wedding.  It took about a dozen people to tell her that the Duggars went to the wedding and it was shown on their show.  FWIW, I didn't have a problem with Howard, but it was best not to deal with her where the Duggars were concerned.

[toodles]

3 minutes ago, Zahdii said:

Probably Mod Howard.  She hated all things Duggar, so I never understood why she didn't ask to moderate other forums instead.  She loved to shut down the forum for weeks at a time when someone said something wrong.  I remember she said she was going to shut down the forum if anyone mentioned one more time the Waller/Keller wedding.  It took about a dozen people to tell her that the Duggars went to the wedding and it was shown on their show.  FWIW, I didn't have a problem with Howard, but it was best not to deal with her where the Duggars were concerned.

I think she slapped my hand about something, but I don't remember the issue.

Thanks for the info.  I'm nosy that way.

[bigskygirl]

Keep the conversation on Josh, Anna, and their kids. Discussion about other mods on other websites is going off topic, and the off topic posts may be hidden at the discretion of the mods. Thank you.

[Sew Sumi]

What I want to know is how that phony who played Razing Ruth (amongst others) found that "sin in the camp" info so early in the game. Because it WAS believed for years until RR's author was exposed. In all of her iterations, she seemed to be a combination of mixing truths (or what she considered to be truth...she got lucky with "sin in the camp," as it turns out) with an amazing amount of tale-spinning. 

Not sure whether she got started with "Sin in the Camp" or the Gosselins (they kind of emerged at the same time), but man, an internet legend who was believed early on by a lot of credible media sources (although not big ones that could have done something to shut it down). 

I can't recall my first encounter with "sin in the camp" myself, but maybe 2006? That would place my discovery between the specials (which aside from Jenni's birth were 2004-06) and the show's debut in late 2008. I know I was reading other former fundies' books ten years ago, easily. 

I am just sick that so many people knew, and not a single soul did anything to stop it; they admit it went on for what, over a timeframe of 18 months before (I suppose) Jill said something? And I imagine that's because her unnamed buddy said something to her that even someone in a cult can acknowledge is wrong (or they'd been taught about good-touch/bad touch by then). 

Ugh. 

[Arwen Evenstar]

Ewwwwww, that post made me shudder, and then it made me feel like I needed a shower after reading it.

[Sew Sumi]

Sorry. :( It's just so ironic that the person who faked an entire former fundie on the internet (eta: and got people, mostly on FJ to give her something like $12,000 with her continuous sob stories), was the first one to break this. Given that she was a housewife from (nowhere near me) California, she had to be even deeper into the Duggars than ANYONE at that point. She'd been digging for a couple of years before even FJ came on the scene (2005, IIRC. I joined up there in 2006-ish). Hard to remember with all the format changes. 

Edited September 11, 2016 by Sew Sumi

[farmgal4]

Off topic, I know, but did you hear about the dad from the Willis family?  TLC needs to throw in the towel, seriously.

[Arwen Evenstar]

1 hour ago, Sew Sumi said:

Sorry. :( It's just so ironic that the person who faked an entire former fundie on the internet (eta: and got people, mostly on FJ to give her something like $12,000 with her continuous sob stories), was the first one to break this. Given that she was a housewife from (nowhere near me) California, she had to be even deeper into the Duggars than ANYONE at that point. She'd been digging for a couple of years before even FJ came on the scene (2005, IIRC. I joined up there in 2006-ish). Hard to remember with all the format changes. 

No worries, Sew. Nothing you could ever write would bother me.  It's just this total ick factor of all this sin in the camp is so pervasive in these cults. You hear them all talking about what "is pleasing unto God", yet, they seem to look the other way and blame the victim rather than the perp.  Violating the dignity and sanctity of another's body...how can they justify such behavior to be anything other than not only displeasing to God, but also downright criminal?

[Love2dance]

2 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

Sorry. :( It's just so ironic that the person who faked an entire former fundie on the internet (eta: and got people, mostly on FJ to give her something like $12,000 with her continuous sob stories), was the first one to break this. Given that she was a housewife from (nowhere near me) California, she had to be even deeper into the Duggars than ANYONE at that point. She'd been digging for a couple of years before even FJ came on the scene (2005, IIRC. I joined up there in 2006-ish). Hard to remember with all the format changes. 

As one of the ones who donated to her sob story, I would love to know how she got her (real) information. And I wonder, to stay on topic, if she knows what is going on in the Josh and Anna world now.

[Churchhoney]

11 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

I am just sick that so many people knew, and not a single soul did anything to stop it; they admit it went on for what, over a timeframe of 18 months before (I suppose) Jill said something? And I imagine that's because her unnamed buddy said something to her that even someone in a cult can acknowledge is wrong (or they'd been taught about good-touch/bad touch by then). 

 

It is sickening. But this kind of response is very common and, I expect, absolutely the norm.

In my experience, people tend to wait until the offender dies. For decades, they don't say anything, even to the people involved, they don't do anything, they pretend that they don't see anything. And then, as soon as it doesn't actually matter any more, they tell you (very quietly) -- Wow, I felt so sorry for you all those years. And then they quickly walk away.

Seriously. This is how I learned that extreme cowardice is the natural condition of humankind.

Edited September 11, 2016 by Churchhoney