Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[starfire]

aethera, on 26 May 2015 - 09:42 AM, said:

Gawker has it now. Here

 

Good!  All the Duggar hypocrisy needs to be brought to light.

 

I would love for someone to ask JB if he thinks Josh should get the death penalty.

[JoanArc]

Walgreens says they are monitoring the situation, but haven't pulled ads yet. I really, really hope they yank them.

 

The alive fest still lists Josh and Ann, Jill and Derrick, and Ben and Jessa as speakers. Gack.

[Churchhoney]

I would guess that right now, Jim Bob is plotting strategies for how to bring in money. One possibility is to set some of the girls up to do interviews where they explain that kids make mistakes, all is forgiven, they're long since healed, etc. The problem with that is the follow-up questions and not being able to predict whether the girls hold it together. Maybe some of the Christian broadcasters? They could wax on about the power of forgiveness and not being your own victim, and if they cry it can all be attributed to their overwhelming love for the lord. Thoughts? Will interviewers continue to accept the "pre-approved questions only" rule? (This is, of course, only my guess about one angle that could be under discussion, nothing more.)

In the past, interviewers could avoid any boat rocking by avoiding tough questions. Now, though, they'll be in trouble if they DO avoid tough questions. Maybe some of the very tiniest Christian news outlets could get away with a softball interview, but anybody else would be taken to task by all if they did it, I think. And doing interviews with tiny Christian outlets won't pay the bills for a super-family. .

[Dawn16]

I am with you. I feel so horrible for those girls. It was easy to snark on them when they were just bumpkins, but now I feel nothing but pity and sadness for them.

I really hope they know this is not their fault and they were failed miserably by their parents in nearly every single way. Jboob and Mechelle failed to protect, educate or prepare their children to be productive adults in literally every single way possible. 

OMG and of course look at michelles dumbass stupid face gazing a Boob like he is the 2nd coming.

I bet the girls were so paranoid every single night until Josh moved out. I really can't even think about how hard it would be to be on edge all the time waiting for Chester the molester to come corner you in some laundry room/sneak into your room. But I bet Mechelle and Boob slept fine.

Growing up in that household had to be hell. 

 

Sorry for the long post. I have been following this family for YEARS over on FJ, and its just totally shocking and sad to think about that all those sin in the camp rumors where true. :-( I really feel for those poor children. 

 

Also can we get Boob and Mechelle on Doctor phil???? I'm picturing a Kim Richards style interview. PLEASE?

I am angry on behalf of every child who is victimized and made to feel unsafe in her own home, but their upbringing made them especially vulnerable.  And to actually be able to read strangers' opinions on the internet over and over that it was an adolescent mistake that God has forgiven and a PRIVATE FAMILY MATTER makes me furious. [ I will admit that I have been reading about child victims of adult molesters as part of my work in the past month (and close family members who call the victims liars), and had a lot of anger about this issue before this information was released.]

 

I can't get Amy Grant's song, "Ask Me," out of my mind:

 

"I see her as a little girl hiding in her room

She takes another bath and she sprays her Momma's perfume

To try to wipe away the scent he left behind

But it haunts her mind

You see she's his little rag, nothing more than just a waif

And he's mopping up his need, she is tired and afraid

Maybe she'll find a way through these awful years to disappear

Ask me if I think there's a God up in the heaven

Where did He go in the middle of her shame?

Ask me if I think there's a God up in the heavens

I see no mercy and no one down here's naming names

Nobody's naming names

Now she's looking in the mirror at a lovely woman face

No more frightened little girl, like she's gone without a trace

Still she leaves the light burning in the hall

It's hard to sleep at all

So she crawls up in her bed acting quiet as a mouse

Deep inside she's listening for a creaking in the house

But no one's left to harm her, she's finally safe and sound

There's a peace she has found."

[starfire]

Happyfatchick, on 26 May 2015 - 10:24 AM, said:

I am so looking forward to them breaking their silence. I bet dollars to donuts they spent the whole entire weekend with any numberof advisers plotting and planning. Flip charts, dry erase boards, post it notes, tables littered with legal pads and markers. It probably looks like a campaign headquarters right now. At the end of the day, maybe this made JB nostalgic.

I can't even begin to imagine the strategies taking place. Good thing they had that supermarket of a pantry, huh?

Who's going to talk first? Will the girls give some sort of statement? I'm thinking that may be near the top of possibilities. I don't think we'll Joshie's face for awhile. It will be mildly (ha!) interesting to see how this plays out.

 

 

I'm worried that JimBob and Michelle are pressuring and otherwise guilt-tripping the daughters into potentially making public statements that they don't really agree with. Or at least being advised that someone else (JB, an attorney for JimBob) will be making statements about them saying that all of them are fine, got help, they forgave Josh, Josh has changed, Jesus healed everyone, the parents did everything right,  yada, yada.

 

I am worried that whatever JimBob and his goons have up their sleeves to spin this that it will further traumatize them.

[SomePity1066]

When I was 14 I made a mistake. I was with some older kids and, to "be cool", drank some Jack Daniels, after having, to date, only a few sips of beer here and there in my newly acquired adolescence. I have no memory of what happened, but I nearly died. The heartache I put my parents through shames me to this day. I was made to go before a judge, apologize, pay a fine (which I paid, not my parents !) and my father had a police officer come over and scare the bejesus out of me for FOUR hours. I deserved all of it. My parents are gone now and I'm in my late 40s, but I am, technically, still grounded. 

 

THAT'S a mistake. 

 

What Josh did was so far from a "mistake" it makes my head spin ! And JB and Michelle, slippery as eels, did their damndest to just make it all go away while keeping some of Josh's victims tethered to him while making them smile and keep sweet ! How abhorrent, reprehensible, and disgusting. I taste bile when I think about this whole debacle.

 

JB and Michelle didn't just let the fox into the henhouse, they KEPT him there. They celebrated him, crowning him as the successor headship of the Duggar empire. They were PROUD of him. What they did to those poor girls is almost as bad as what Josh did. 

 

The grace the girls showed though out the last decade is almost unimaginable. How they kept it together is a miracle, and thank God they had each other. Oh, and screw the idea that the side-hug originated with Jessa and Ben, as that's been on the show for YEARS - it probably had its origins in Josh's sexual assault. 

 

Sorry my thoughts are all over the place here, but this has me really, truly rattled. I'm normally more put together than this but not today. 

 

As a final thought, I think Josh should have learned the difference between "I need to pray" and "I need to prey"...

[Julia]

I think that the family's PR people / production company are smart enough to have realized what many of the Duggars' online supporters have - the best way of derailing this conversation is to plead the girls' privacy. They can't do that and make them talk to the press.

[NikSac]

The Today Show speculated this morning that TLC might decide to continue the series under the guise of "showing REAL reality TV -- how a family handles a crisis of a monumental nature." But I really don't think that will fly with the viewing public, or with advertisers.

 

hahaha... ok not really, nothing is funny about this situation, but the DUGGARS being REAL?  I think that ship has sailed. I can't imagine anyone believing a word they say anymore, except their die-hard fans who think they can do no wrong.

[Oldernowiser]

I will be shocked if the girls don't come out with some group interview absolving their brother. Shocked.

Because if they don't, the gravy train jumps the tracks for good and JB isn't going to let that happen.

Besides, the family has been putting on an act for years, why would they believe it wouldn't work now?

The only way this might not happen is if there's something more lurking out there and inviting more scrutiny would be too dangerous.

Edited May 26, 2015 by Oldernowiser

[Aja]

 

What they did to those poor girls is almost as bad as what Josh did.

A thousand times yes to your entire post with the exception of the word "almost" in the above sentence. I think what Boob and MEchelle did was every bit as abhorrent. You said it so well...they celebrated him...crowned him the new Quiverfull King and would not shut up about how proud they are of him, and the whole time their daughters watching, their daughters learning everything they need to know about their own worth, their daughters...left with no other choice...internalizing everything. My greatest hope is that at least one of the daughters has the almost-inconceivable strength and courage to completely reject what has been forced on her. Publicly or privately, I don't care which, I don't need to know. If one of them can do it, it will make it a lot more feasible and likely that others will give themselves permission to follow her lead. 

[HumblePi]

Are the five girls who were allegedly sexually molested considered accessories to their own molestation considering the fact that they're adults now and have the freedom to speak up for themselves?  Does the money coming from TLC for their appearances on the show convince them to protect the brother that committed crimes towards them?  Did Michelle and Jim Bob swear them to secrecy in order to keep the gravy train rolling smoothly on track? Did they sacrifice five girls in order to protect their oldest son who had political aspirations?

 

So many questions, so few answers.

 

I'm certain that a lot of the answers comes right from Wikipedia and Jim Bob Duggar's political ambitions.

 

"From 1999 to 2002, Duggar served in the Arkansas House of Representatives for the sixth district, which included part of northern Washington County, Arkansas. Duggar was vice chair of the House Corrections and Criminal Law Subcommittee and also participated in the Insurance and Commerce Committee and Judiciary Committee.

He also ran in the Republican Party of Arkansas primary election for the United States Senate in 2002, but lost to incumbent Senator Tim Hutchinson by a vote of 71,576 to 20,546. Duggar sought the Republican nomination to the Arkansas State Senate District 35 seat in 2006, but lost to candidate Bill Pritchard by 200 votes."

 

Now really, how could a conservative Republican run for political office if people knew he had a son that molested younger siblings?

Edited May 26, 2015 by HumblePi

[Cherrio]

I'm worried that JimBob and Michelle are pressuring and otherwise guilt-tripping the daughters into potentially making public statements that they don't really agree with. Or at least being advised that someone else (JB, an attorney for JimBob) will be making statements about them saying that all of them are fine, got help, they forgave Josh, Josh has changed, Jesus healed everyone, the parents did everything right,  yada, yada.

 

I am worried that whatever JimBob and his goons have up their sleeves to spin this that it will further traumatize them.

That is my thought as well. He reeks of being a world class coward.

[autumnh]

They all had access to computers, both desktops in the computer room and laptops. I would bet that all of those had been donated to the Duggar family. Reading the article and the statements made by "Alice" I've concluded that she's an older woman judging from some of her terminology such as "a pretty penny' and I also concluded that she's a member of their 'home church'. But I can also see that she isn't highly educated which means she's one of their cult members.

 

“Around 9:00 a.m., the children start their music & individual studies–for grades 3 and up, studies such as Mathematic, Language Arts, Science, and History & Geography are done on the computer with Switched On Schoolhouse,” Michelle said.

 

 

 

What makes me LOL SO hard about these photos is their phony claims of being frugal. My husband and I are hardcore apple fans and we have 3 new apple laptops and two iMacs, iPhones and iPads...they are EXPENSIVE...you'd think for being so cheap they'd be using refurbished laptops....

 

Mac Books, iPads, iPhones, designer clothing...they do not shop at Goodwill anymore or Aldi...they are just so fakety fake fake.

[Buggin]

I was wondering if Anna and Josh had any sort of pre-nup. If not, could she THEORETICALLY get a nice chunk of change from the family in exchange for keeping her mouth shut if she and Josh divorced? I don't think she will divorce him, at least not anytime soon, and I think she will be concerned enough for her kids not to drag their father's name further through the mud, but if she decided it was time to get the hell out of dodge and wanted to ensure she and her kids would be well-taken care of I wonder if she could threaten to go to the press or do a book deal and spill secrets.

[selenitetower]

This may have already been addressed, but I'm not seeing it since there are so many replies to this topic.  When I read the police report, I could swear I saw six victims.  The interviews I read with victims were number 7, 8, 9, 10, 12, and number 17 (who was the person asleep on the couch).  That would total six people.  Am I losing my mind here?  All I see and read are about five victims.  Can someone take a look at that and tell me if I'm going crazy?

[JenCarroll]

This may have already been addressed, but I'm not seeing it since there are so many replies to this topic.  When I read the police report, I could swear I saw six victims.  The interviews I read with victims were number 7, 8, 9, 10, 12, and number 17 (who was the person asleep on the couch).  That would total six people.  Am I losing my mind here?  All I see and read are about five victims.  Can someone take a look at that and tell me if I'm going crazy?

One of the interviewees said she was never touched.

[anstar]

I'm trying desperately to catch up but I'm not there yet. Something I want to say I haven't seen addressed yet. Hopefully someone hasn't said it on a page I haven't gotten to... It's about the abysmal redaction job done on the police report. If they had simply redacted the parents names as well, the victims' identities would have been truly protected. By leaving Jim Bob and Michelle open they may as well have just named the girls. Can't unring a bell but someone's head should roll for that.
 

[snip]

Edited May 26, 2015 by AmandaPanda
speculating on identity of victims

[SoSueMe]

Oh, don't worry. Surely, the 'buy your gold' set will step in to fill the gap [/sarcasm]

It is jarring to me that I know exactly who you are referring to. Well done.

[selenitetower]

JenCarroll - Thank you.  I totally missed it.  Interview 12 says that she was never touched.  

[hathorlive]

 

As do I. But not forever. Josh was a child, too. at the time. He was only 14 years old. You've made mistakes before, I'm sure. Lord knows I have. I'm glad I can forgive and grateful that I can be forgiven.

 

I've debated about posting this a few times and I always back off, not wanting to add fuel to the fire. Mods, please remove if you feel this is inappropriate to the thread.  But I really would like to stress what this "mistake" does to the victims.  I have a masters degree in counseling but I don't use it.  I currently (and for the past ten years) have worked for a federal law enforcement agency doing computer forensics.  In this course of work, I have spent a good amount of my professional time watching child porn.  Video after video of victims of abuse and incest.   There are a lot of things that videos capture that still photos don't: the anguish of the victim, the coercion of the perpetrator, the absolute abuse of power in this situation, where the perp has it all and the victim has none.  I don't think most people realize how horrible this act is.  Molestation, abuse, rape.  It's something I pray that none of you ever have to view, or sit on for a jury.  Or experience in real life.

 

What I can't forgive are the parents who let ONE child suffer this and in doing NOTHING (be it Gothard "counseling", church confessions, apologies) created FOUR more victims.  Four more children who had to suffer and carry this pain.  I don't profess to having any religious beliefs at all, but I can't forgive Josh and Law Enforcement shouldn't forgive him.  I won't forgive Jim Bob and Michelle who created more victims because they basically didn't want to sully their family name.  And that's what it comes down to.  Pride.  If a God can forgive him, great.  But he shouldn't be above criminal prosecution because his sisters were coerced again to forgive him. 

 

I'm sorry if this is inappropriate, but I just wanted to get that off my chest.  The only concern of god fearing people should be those girls and making sure they aren't trapped into filming with their abuser for perpetuity.

[MJDai]

I’m a little worried you’re all going to be disgusted with me but here it is: I am having trouble fitting the image of Josh I had before (loving husband and father, bully to LGBT and women’s rights) and this new one of molester. I find myself going back and forth between Molester Then, loving father/husband and whackjob right-taker now, and Molester who cannot be a loving father/husband.

Even if I only take into account what we know- he molested five minors, and keep aside all speculation about the possibility of his being a sexual predator now. How can he be both have molested his sisters AND love his daughter? I find myself excusing his “teenage mistake” until it makes me physically ill. Then I try to make him less of a dad but that is not fair to his family.
I think I have been so conditioned into viewing the world in black/white, good/evil that seeing that a person can be more than a molester takes some real effort. He was never all good obviously. Good people try to help others, they don’t try to put restrictions  on who is allowed to love who. But he was ruining lives from the safety of his office, never having to witness the pain and destruction of life he was causing. That makes him an idiot, a bully and a coward. Now we know he’s a molester as well. Invading the sanctity of the body of another without consent, we can all agree that’s just evil.

But evil people don’t have lame competitions with their brother-in-law. They don’t carry their children or are too weak to tell their wife they don’t want more kids. We don’t see evil every week on the tv smiling at us as he recounts another inane event of his life. We certainly don’t let evil into our living room, or in the case of their fans, into our hearts. So how can he be evil? How can he be a molester?

And at that point the whole circle starts anew. Josh Duggar made a mistake. Could happen to anyone. He molested 5 minors. Evil. Aw Crap!

If anyone can explain to me how someone can love his family and still have molested his sisters (amongst other) I would be interested to know. This is breaking my head.

(Written in first person singular because I don’t want to assume, but I think these same thoughts are what makes fans stick by Josh Duggar.)

[zenme]

I was a victim of this type of molestation as well, and for years it was easier to deny than to admit. Teens are especially adept at this thinking--that one may forget it happened if you deny or don't think about it. I hope to God this person who was questioned and denied was telling the truth. If not, I understand the thinking, but the pain doesn't go away.

Edited May 26, 2015 by zenme

[dorcastrilling]

Direct TV in Northern New England has 3 episodes back on demand after pulling them Sunday.

[Sew Sumi]

I figure it was something like Passion of the Christ or similar.  A Christ/godly movie that happened to be rated R.  

It was a private screening of Fireproof before it was released to the public. No one under 18 allowed. Sorry it wasn't anything more dramatic than that. 

 

eta: I looked for the film's actual rating, which I recall to be PG, but I couldn't find it. It was certainly not rated R. Remember, the entire Duggar family saw it at Doug Phillips' old fundie Film Festival, and JB proclaied it something to the effect of "a great family movie." 

Edited May 26, 2015 by Sew Sumi

[wanderwoman]

[snip] Josh realized he did something wrong, took ownership of his actions, confessed to his parents (who then took action) and repented. It's not as if he were caught in the act and forced to own up to it. When he was 14 years old. If every teenage mistake - big or small - were held against any of us for the rest of our lives, the world would be a pretty miserable place. I think it's great that Josh told Anna and her parents two years before there was a courtship/engagement/marriage. I think it's admirable that Anna is standing by her husbands side.

 

As many of you have, I've emailed and snail mailed TLC. In my case, though, I've asked them to reconsider cancelling this show. I'd like to see it stay on the air. If television only aired things I agreed with sponsored by companies whose political stances I agreed with - there wouldn't be anything at all on.

With all due respect, I think we all have to decide, individually, where we fall on this issue. I'm not sure how much if this forum you've read since Friday (the volume is overwhelming): but, I think you will find that many of us are sympathetic to Josh's childhood and minor status. Speaking only for myself, what Josh did as a minor, as awful as it was, isn't the reason why I'm angry and want TLC to stop the show. Knowing what we know now, TLC, Michelle and Jim Bob sought out publicity and created an empire based on a wholesome, scandal free image KNOWING that they had a very real, criminal problem on their hands. They've built an empire by constantly devaluing the rights and privacy of their children. They agreed to exchange their privacy for celebrity and money. What John sho did was undeniably wrong. What his parents did (waiting to disclose it and failing to protect ALL of their kids) is the bigger issue. It was beyond naive for then to think three months of construction work would fix the problem. Taking this to church elders (which, at that time, consisted exclusively of Jim Bob and a few friends- none had degrees in psychology or social work) means nothing. Going to the officer you are friendly with (and who turned out to be in to kiddy porn) isn't obtaining adequate care. Telling a five year old girl that she had the power to defraud anyone is downright disgusting. Duggars supporters seem to be missing the fact that Jim Bob did NOT report this to the police or family services when it happened. As a political family, they had to know that waiting for the sixth offense to take your kid for a chat with a cop isn't adequate. That cop was protecting Josh, not the girls. Signing up to do a series was the last thing this family needed or needs.

[juneday]

It was a private screening of Fireproof before it was released to the public. No one under 18 allowed. Sorry it wasn't anything more dramatic than that.

eta: I looked for the film's actual rating, which I recall to be PG, but I couldn't find it. It was certainly not rated R. Remember, the entire Duggar family saw it at Doug Phillips' old fundie Film Festival, and JB proclaied it something to the effect of "a great family movie."

Lol interesting, because I'm almost 100% sure Fireproof was about the husband who was a firefighter who was addicted to porn (which was implied heavily in the movie) and the wife was about to leave him because of it.

ETA: and then the husband converted to Christianity and found God and the couple reconciled, of course. But the porn thing is ironic to me.

Edited May 26, 2015 by juneday

[Aja]

Haha, yeah, I remember the Fireproof episode. Kirk Cameron's wife stood in during the kissing scene because Kirk won't even kiss another actress for a role. The Duggars thought that was profoundly awesome, of course.

[HumblePi]

What makes me LOL SO hard about these photos is their phony claims of being frugal. My husband and I are hardcore apple fans and we have 3 new apple laptops and two iMacs, iPhones and iPads...they are EXPENSIVE...you'd think for being so cheap they'd be using refurbished laptops....

 

Mac Books, iPads, iPhones, designer clothing...they do not shop at Goodwill anymore or Aldi...they are just so fakety fake fake.

They're all really cheap when someone else buys them for you.

[selenitetower]

As I stated before, I'm a little late to the game in joining the discussion, so this may have been stated before.

 

I must be a horrible parent.  I am so tired of seeing responses from others stating that they couldn't have reported their child, or turned him/her in to the authorities.  I would have done it in a heartbeat.  My first responsibility at that point is to provide immediate care to my children who have been victimized.  I don't care how old my child is who committed the crime.  Of course it would be one of the hardest things I would have to do, but I couldn't in good consciousness allow my son to live in my home where he molested my other children.  In addition, what if the situation came to light later and I had my remaining children removed from my home because I failed to notify the authorities about the crime?  

 

I never thought about their "church" being a cult, but now I do.  What kind of church condones and hides crimes like this?  Isn't the church supposed to be there to protect the innocent?  What does this say to the members who have been victimized?  And as far as the trooper is concerned?  Aside from the child pornography  charges, he committed another crime and that was by not reporting Josh Duggar.  He didn't have the option to decide whether or not this was something to be reported.  Any and all crimes must be reported by an officer no matter what.  If he had done his job maybe the victims would have had some type of proper counseling or therapy.  Jim Bob, Michelle, and the trooper all failed every single one of those children.   

[merylinkid]

I really wish the adults in this family not named JimBoob, Michelle and Josh knew they could have their own lawyers.   They don't have to use Daddy's lawyer and do what Daddy's lawyer tells them to do.   Because Daddy's lawyer is Daddy's lawyer, not theirs.   He is protecting Daddy's interests not necessarily the other adults.   That they might just might have a different interest in this whole matter than Daddy's "let keep the gravy train rolling while pretending this is no big deal."   It's called a conflict of interest for a reason.

[Oldernowiser]

We want to believe that we can recognize evil people when we encounter them, because otherwise life is pretty scary. Many times, we can.

But there are sociopaths out there...people who can pass for "normal," even charming. Ted Bundy was a Republican fundraiser. Aaron Hernandez fooled everyone in the NFL and is still described as charming...by his jailers. Jerry Sandusky was incredibly well respected and liked. On and on.

I suspect that much of what what we see on this show is and always has been a facade, not just with Josh, but all of them. Do you really think Michelle never once ripped into JimBob? Hey, I find him insanely annoying and I can just turn the channel. No squabbles between the kids, ever? Do you really think JimBob controls that much of his children's lives just being a herpderp doofus?

Josh can put on a great front. At this point, it's probably not even a conscious act, he's been doing it so long. And he may well love his wife. He may love his kids. But some people have a very dark side and can compartmentalize it very, very well.

They call it reality television, but it's not and never really has been.

[hathorlive]

 

Aside from the child pornography  charges, he committed another crime and that was by not reporting Josh Duggar.  He didn't have the option to decide whether or not this was something to be reported.  Any and all crimes must be reported by an officer no matter what.  If he had done his job maybe the victims would have had some type of proper counseling or therapy.  Jim Bob, Michelle, and the trooper all failed every single one of those children.

 

 

I have to say that having worked with troopers most of my career, this should have been reported.  I guess Trooper Child Porn probably got off on giving Josh "a stern talking to".  But in reality 99 out 100 LE officers would have reported this.  I've seen them fake lecture kids about many things, but this was clearly a felony.  So many people let the victims down. 

[SomePity1066]

I've debated about posting this a few times and I always back off, not wanting to add fuel to the fire. Mods, please remove if you feel this is inappropriate to the thread.  But I really would like to stress what this "mistake" does to the victims.  I have a masters degree in counseling but I don't use it.  I currently (and for the past ten years) have worked for a federal law enforcement agency doing computer forensics.  In this course of work, I have spent a good amount of my professional time watching child porn.  Video after video of victims of abuse and incest.   There are a lot of things that videos capture that still photos don't: the anguish of the victim, the coercion of the perpetrator, the absolute abuse of power in this situation, where the perp has it all and the victim has none.  I don't think most people realize how horrible this act is.  Molestation, abuse, rape.  It's something I pray that none of you ever have to view, or sit on for a jury.  Or experience in real life.

 

What I can't forgive are the parents who let ONE child suffer this and in doing NOTHING (be it Gothard "counseling", church confessions, apologies) created FOUR more victims.  Four more children who had to suffer and carry this pain.  I don't profess to having any religious beliefs at all, but I can't forgive Josh and Law Enforcement shouldn't forgive him.  I won't forgive Jim Bob and Michelle who created more victims because they basically didn't want to sully their family name.  And that's what it comes down to.  Pride.  If a God can forgive him, great.  But he shouldn't be above criminal prosecution because his sisters were coerced again to forgive him. 

 

I'm sorry if this is inappropriate, but I just wanted to get that off my chest.  The only concern of god fearing people should be those girls and making sure they aren't trapped into filming with their abuser for perpetuity.

Very, very well said. I couldn't agree more. I'm in awe of your eloquence and bravery in speaking your piece. I'm SO far beyond trying to fashion (or fabricate) an "excuse" for Josh's actions. It's time now for him to suffer in the same way that he inflicted suffering, though it will never equal the crimes he committed. 

 

Interestingly, neither rape nor incest are part of the Ten Commandments. That is, to me, hella weird. There's a whole bunch about coveting (your neighbors OX ? REALLY ?), but nothing about sexual abuse. Maybe this is a stretch, but perhaps Josh felt some bizarre comfort that he'd not broken a Commandment ?

 

Just my wandering mind's opinion, that's all...

[HumblePi]

And as far as the trooper is concerned?  Aside from the child pornography  charges, he committed another crime and that was by not reporting Josh Duggar.  He didn't have the option to decide whether or not this was something to be reported.  Any and all crimes must be reported by an officer no matter what.  If he had done his job maybe the victims would have had some type of proper counseling or therapy.  Jim Bob, Michelle, and the trooper all failed every single one of those children.

Maybe Jim Bob 'convinced' this trooper that it would be in his (the trooper's) best interest to snuff this report, otherwise some very unsavory information about this trooper could likely be uncovered by the press. You never want to throw stones when you're living in a glass house, and he certainly had much to hide. Of course he was convicted eventually of child pornography and sent to prison. Don't forget that Jim Bob Duggar was a very influential politician in their part of the State and I'm certain had a lot of connections.

Edited May 26, 2015 by HumblePi

[Skittl1321]

I was wondering if Anna and Josh had any sort of pre-nup. If not, could she THEORETICALLY get a nice chunk of change from the family in exchange for keeping her mouth shut if she and Josh divorced?

Josh probably doesn't have that much money. The money is in the Duggar trust, controlled by Jim Bob. She wouldn't be entitled to her Father-in-law's money.

[3 is enough]

 

Interestingly, neither rape nor incest are part of the Ten Commandments.

Neither is homosexuality.  But Leviticus, the favorite book of anti-LGBT zealots, also says that you should not "lie with your sister".

[Aja]

Interestingly, neither rape nor incest are part of the Ten Commandments. That is, to me, hella weird. There's a whole bunch about coveting (your neighbors OX ? REALLY ?), but nothing about sexual abuse. Maybe this is a stretch, but perhaps Josh felt some bizarre comfort that he'd not broken a Commandment ?

 

When the bible was written, ruining womens' lives via molestation and/or rape wasn't really considered a bad thing, since they're just worthless baby machines without real feelings and souls. Which yes, is perfectly in line with the Duggar worldview.

Edited May 26, 2015 by Aja

[Darknight]

Molestation, rape and murder are three of the worst crimes anyone can do. Society hates and looks down on rapist and child molesters. Doesn't matter what age. Some people start out as teens. I think the younger someone gets help it lessens the change of them doing it again. There are programs and therapists that specializes in this sort of thing. Josh knew it was wrong since he told his father and repented. His victims knew it was wrong. JimChelle knew it was wrong. Yet they ignored it. If a third party didn't get involved then the Duggars would've hid this forever of until someone exposed them. Then to go around preaching modesty and saying everything is sinful is disgusting. I can't imagine being in a home where my clothing dictates if I'm abused or even if I dress modestly I'm still abused. Jim Bob and Michelle must be so far out of it to allow this to happen. They too need serious mental help. A shrink can make tons of money off these two alone. I really hope their kids hate the lifestyle their parents inflicted onto them.

And if it were my 14yo son, I would call the proper authorities. Especially if I have other kids at home. Sometimes as parents we have to make tough choices. I would turn my son in and get him help because I love him that much. I love him enough to get him help and make him know what he did was wrong. There are consequences for ones actions.

[HumblePi]

I understand the public outrage, the appeal to TLC to cancel this series has been overwhelming. I think that people that followed the Duggar family always had a feeling that something just wasn't right about them. The 'no kissing' rule when Jim Bob and Michelle admitted to 'kissing and a lot of it' before marriage, and to using contraceptives at one time all seemed to be so opposite from the standards they expected their children to adhere to. They were rigid, unreasonable, and unrealistic. Do we know for sure if the perversions committed by Josh were a direct result of the sexual oppression in his home? No, we don't know that for certain. I just don't think that children raised in an open family atmosphere where sex is not a forbidden topic would become teenagers that sexually molest their siblings.

 

The one question we really don't want to ask ourselves is whether we are outraged because of the offense committed by Josh or because we feel vindicated in our thinking that there just might be something amiss all these years with the Duggars? How many have silently said "I knew it!  I just knew it!" ?

[WalrusGirl]

I really wish the adults in this family not named JimBoob, Michelle and Josh knew they could have their own lawyers. They don't have to use Daddy's lawyer and do what Daddy's lawyer tells them to do. Because Daddy's lawyer is Daddy's lawyer, not theirs. He is protecting Daddy's interests not necessarily the other adults. That they might just might have a different interest in this whole matter than Daddy's "let keep the gravy train rolling while pretending this is no big deal." It's called a conflict of interest for a reason.

I do too, but lawyers aren't cheap. I think there's every reason to think that at least some of the girls just want this to blow over, in terms of the attention on them and disruption to their lives again. (That and feeling some degree satisfaction that Josh is catching hell aren't at all mutually exclusive.) So unless one of them actually wants to do something differently right now, they have no reason to hire their own lawyer. Jill and Jessa could easily obtain their own counsel if they wanted to; not so much for the girls at home, though the relationship with TLC, the crew, and having two sisters outside the home who could act as cover at least gives them a shot at covert contact they wouldn't easily have otherwise.

(And while I'm not at all excluding parental pressure, the minor petitioning to avoid the release of her name is what anyone I've known in similar situations would want, including those who testified and whose abuser was put away. My initial thought was that the minor was also doing what the now-adult victims wanted but didn't have as good a legal case for themselves. I don't love the judge's connections to Huckabee in terms of conspiracy theories (while the destruction has been said to be very unusual in their area, the world press's FOIA attempts to get and report on the records was also an unusual mitigating circumstance), I'm completely fine with it having worked because it rings true that it's what the victims wanted. If charges can't be brought, I care a lot more about what they want than the fact that it also happens to be what Josh and JB&M surely wanted.)

Edited May 26, 2015 by WalrusGirl

[KittyS]

Good!  All the Duggar hypocrisy needs to be brought to light.

 

I would love for someone to ask JB if he thinks Josh should get the death penalty.

I'll bet if you asked Jim Bob, he would say Josh didn't commit incest, he made a "mistake." They REALLY don't get it.

[Wellfleet]

I am so looking forward to them breaking their silence. I bet dollars to donuts they spent the whole entire weekend with any numberof advisers plotting and planning. Flip charts, dry erase boards, post it notes, tables littered with legal pads and markers. It probably looks like a campaign headquarters right now. At the end of the day, maybe this made JB nostalgic.

I can't even begin to imagine the strategies taking place. Good thing they had that supermarket of a pantry, huh?

Who's going to talk first? Will the girls give some sort of statement? I'm thinking that may be near the top of possibilities. I don't think we'll Joshie's face for awhile. It will be mildly (ha!) interesting to see how this plays out.

 

Perfect description of the scene this past weekend. Boob and his goons holed up somewhere making plans. I bet there's no hillybilly, Hee Haw, yuck-yuck goofball grin on his face now. Welcome to the real world, Boob. You haven't been here for quite a while, and news flash - a few things have changed...

[hathorlive]

 

The one question we really don't want to ask ourselves is whether we are outraged because of the offense committed by Josh or because we feel vindicated in our thinking that there just might be something amiss all these years with the Duggars? How many have silently said "I knew it!  I just knew it!" ?

 

I always expected that their fall would come because of Gothardism or their hate agenda.  I don't think anyone on this forum is indulging in schadenfreude about incest and the subsequent victims.  I would give anything for these girls to not be victims and for this to have never happened.   The Duggars can keep their self righteousness.   But I have nothing but empathy for the five victims and any sibling who had to keep this secret and put a happy smile on for the cameras.

[whydoiwatch]

So many thoughtful and insightful posts here and many good questions have been raised.

MJDai - your post really made me think. I could never stand Josh and Anna, found them arrogant, ignorant and entitled. I understand that affects my response to the situation. I wanted to see them fall, but not like this. It is hard for me to see past the adult hate spewing, holier than thou Josh. While he may have come across to some as a good husband and loving father, I saw him trying to laud his perceived superiority in those roles. I wouldn't trust him in any situation, under any circumstances.

HumblePi - excellent post. I honestly believe my outrage is totally due to Josh's criminal acts. I have admitted wanting to see this secluded, uneducated clan fall, but not like this. I am one who always thought something was "off" with this family, but I get no satisfaction from knowing just how "off" . All these years the Duggars (and TLC) portrayed a lie.

[Literata]

I just keep thinking back to the episode that featured all the girls going to shop for Jill's wedding dress, and they all were to read her letters, and Joy was too distraught to read hers. And then Jinger at Jessa's rehearsal dinner ... not just emotion, but rip-your-heart-out emotion. Those girls have been supporting one another for a long, long time, and the need for that kind of support among the five of them just breaks my heart.

 

There is no excuse for the fact that Boob and MEchelle didn't step in to protect those girls, let alone that they basically forced them to be indentured servants -- not only to the two of them, but to their abuser.

 

I hope someone far more knowledgeable than I am about such matters will answer this: Would there be any reason that authorities could be justified in going into the TTH to try to gauge how the Lost Girls and howlers are doing? As we've said so often on this forum, abuse doesn't happen in a vacuum, and Boob and MEchelle have certainly proven themselves to be abysmal parents with nonexistent consciences.

[3 is enough]

 

The one question we really don't want to ask ourselves is whether we are outraged because of the offense committed by Josh or because we feel vindicated in our thinking that there just might be something amiss all these years with the Duggars? How many have silently said "I knew it!  I just knew it!" ?

I do confess that I did think that Duggars were not as they seemed, but I never dreamed that they were hiding anything as despicable as what has been revealed. I thought it was more along the lines of Michelle screaming at the kids like a banshee all day long, never doing anything around the house (which was pretty much already revealed), Jim Bob being involved in some shady business deals, being a bit of a slumlord, maybe keeping the collections from the home church, Josh and some of the older boys figuring out the internet password and looking at porn.

 

Can't say I feel any vindication- more along the lines of "Wow, those rumors that I could not believe 8 years ago were actually true."

 

But truthfully my very first reaction was just "OMG, those poor girls"

[TheFinalRose]

Boob and his goons holed up somewhere making plans. I bet there's no hillybilly, Hee Haw, yuck-yuck goofball grin on his face now. Welcome to the real world, Boob. You haven't been here for quite a while, and news flash - a few things have changed...

 

 

I picture Boob being a pissed off, stay-out-of-my-way-there's-hell-to-pay-now kind of a guy since he heard the story was going to break, or since at least Friday when TLC pulled the show.  Now someone is going to pay for this situation, and it isn't him. But of course, it does all come down to JimBoob, as the head of the household, for the mess everyone is in.  

 

And here's another thing that irks me. Why are the high and mighty Godly folks yammering on about forgiveness like it's any of our business but ignoring the fact that this Christian family lied about their perfect family and profited from their lies for years? How does the Duggar conscience absolve themselves for that so easily?  They profited greatly from their hypocrisy. 

 

The only consolation is that the money will stop rolling in and whatever they do have won't last to heat that house and buy tater tots for all those mouths anymore and the next thing we know JimBoob will probably be kicking the kids out of the house as soon as they turn 18 because he can't afford them.

 

 

[JoanArc]

I've read elsewhere JB&M have hired a 'faith based' crisis management firm. I'm certain Jim Bob drops his howdy-doody facade and turns into a snake the second their meetings start.

 

They can do whatever they want. I'll keep email sponsors. Everyone in the country can watch the show and it'll still go under if the only advertisers are the 'buy your gold' and 'it's my money, i need it now!' cheap variety.

[Evagirl]

I may be in a minority here and will probably get thumped pretty good by the board members.  But that's okay.  I can take it.

 

I am a Christian.  I was a carnal Christian for many years before I developed a relationship with God through Christ.  A carnal Christian is one who believes in Jesus Christ and what He did for the world, yet continues to live life by doing whatever one wants to do without the feeling of guilt or consequences.  That was me.   I believed, yet I had not submitted my life to God through Christ.  I didn't care who I hurt as long as it felt good to me.  I was selfish.  I just didn't care.

 

Having said this, I understand where Josh is coming from.  He did a terrible thing.  He was young, he was self-absorbed, he was only thinking of himself and what satisfied him.  He didn't think or care about the scarring of the victims.  Josh repented.  He apologized to God, his parents and the victims.  All forgave him and sought help for him and the victims (at least that's what I understand).  And like Ben's father said, when we refuse to forgive we are putting ourselves in God's seat.  How can we (Christians) NOT forgive when Christ forgave us?

 

Does this mean I feel we should just forget about it and pretend nothing happened?  No.  What I am saying is the person who has no sin at all should be the one to cast the first stone.  That person is Jesus Christ.  Our acceptance of Him as Lord and Savior means He has forgiven ALL our sins, past, present, and future.  We will find no stone in his hand, nor should there be one in ours.

 

 

[General Days]

There has been a lot of two sorts of speculation written about over what one would do in a situation like this personally with a son and daughters (or could be the other way round really) in a situation like the one presented here, I would most certainly "turn in" my child if they did something like this - I would think that it would mean being processed threw the juvenile court system and then placement in some sort of therapeutic group home, halfway type house or treatment facility - and then though I'm no longer religious, I would pray that the treatment would work.  I would never allow this child unsupervised access to my other child again.

 

 

One the the Duggars' (and their church elders') concerns expressed in one of the articles, was that sending Josh away to a  group home could expose him to other abusers more adept at abuse and avoiding detection. Someone referred to this sort of situation as a "finishing school" for molesters. That's not entirely inaccurate, sadly. We really suck at treating people with sex-related pathologies, and we suck at keeping children safe in the system. I can understand why people like the Duggars, who are probably naturally suspicious of psychiatry and psychology, would be more comfortable sending their offending son somewhere faith-based. Please don't take this as me thinking they made the right choice. I can just understand how a wrong choice seemed right to people with such an insular world-view.

 

I will say I always thought the "sin in the camp" was a lot like Hitler's "Stab in the Back" for why Germany lost World War I.    Yeah I went there, Godwin's law.   JimBoob couldn't lose the election because he was an idiot and voters do usually a functioning brain.   He couldn't lose because his single issue extremism does not appeal to the average voter.   Nope he lost because someone committed sin and that caused God to turn his face away from JB and not propel him to the U.S. Senate he so richly deserved.   In other words "not my fault."    I still believe that.   Becuase honestly, how many Arkansas voters knew about Josh doing ANYTHING sexual at that time?    Darn few outside of the inner circles.   

 

 

My interpretation of the information reported in the Gawker piece is not that Josh was working on Jim Bob's campaign, but on the campaign of his then girlfriend's father, and it was the girlfriend's father who was convinced there was sin in the camp.

From Defamer.Gawker:

 

 

[Gawker reports that a poster called "concernedmom" posted the following on a blog -- relevant links are in the Gawker piece linked above.]

 

Just this last year the family of the young man mentioned before was highlighted on the Discovery Channel, at the time they had 14 children and were about to have another and the mom was receiving a mother of the year award from our governor. Since that time the same boy was betrothed again to the same girl. He was working very hard on a campaingn for U.S. Senate for the girls father. The father lost the campaign. He immediately began looking for “sin in the camp”, as that could be the only explanation for the loss. He found that the young man betrothed to his daughter, had committed sexual sins(?) while on the campaign trail. The young man, now 16, was made to stand in fornt of the church and confess his sin. He was then told that the campaign was lost due to his sin.

 

[italics & bolding copied from Gawker]

 

---

 

Interestingly, neither rape nor incest are part of the Ten Commandments. That is, to me, hella weird. There's a whole bunch about coveting (your neighbors OX ? REALLY ?), but nothing about sexual abuse. Maybe this is a stretch, but perhaps Josh felt some bizarre comfort that he'd not broken a Commandment ?

 

Just my wandering mind's opinion, that's all...

 

 

Incest isn't in the Ten Commandments, but is pretty thoroughly defined in Leviticus. Definitions of incest (which relations are incestuous) are covered in Leviticus 18, and Leviticus 20, which also carries prescriptions for punishment. Rape is mentioned quite a few times in the Old Testament. I think the punishment is covered in Deuteronomy, but I have to get offline and can't Google, right now. I will note that homosexuality isn't covered in the Ten Commandments, either. It's one verse in Leviticus 18 (verse 22, I think), so Josh must have known what he was doing is wrong, since he has such strong opinions on the other.

My understanding (from a place of Judeo-Christian thought) is that coveting is so prominently featured in the Commandments because actions proceed from thoughts. In other words, If I spend all my time thinking I deserve my neighbor's lovely house, ass, ox, wife, Mercedes, resenting his possession of it, and fostering my own jealousy, it's going to be much harder to love that neighbor, to not steal from the neighbor, to not lie to that neighbor, and in extreme cases, to not murder that neighbor. It's a typical caution to guard one's thoughts.