Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[awaken]

I've been spending lots of time trying to keep up with this thread, and can't possibly read it all- but I did want to say, I have had ups and downs with these boards, but reading these posts have restored my faith in humanity.  Thank you to those of you who have shared honestly about your own past abuse.  Thank you to those who have shared support resources for those affected by abuse.  This whole tragic debacle has served the purpose for me, of re-examining my thoughts and assumptions about where/when/from whom this type of abuse can occur, and looking at what I'm going to keep my kids safe.  I hope it opens up the same sorts of thoughts and conversations for others.  

[JoanArc]

 

I have no DOUBT that TLC walked on eggshells around their moneymakers.....

IF the Michelle & The Gay Cameraman is true, then yes, yes, they did. That story also proves that the show, by design, did not expand the kid's little worlds, as many have claimed. I'd like to know if Scott Enlow was the producer then, he's got a lot to answer for, and needs to explain why he left the show.

[Gianthambeast]

From that article: "While Keller once was considered worthy enough to act as Anna and Josh’s courting chaperone before they tied the knot, according to the source, Keller’s slide into sin resulted in Duggar patriarch Jim Bob sitting in judgment and striking even the mention of her name from the family’s show."

Sexually abusing one's sisters MULTIPLE times is totally a childish mistake that can be forgiven and forgotten. But have sex with another consenting adult, get pregnant (I mean she didn't have an abortion, so they should be happy), etc and you are never to be spoken of again.

Anna, take your kids and go to Susannah's house now. She knows what's up with your in-laws and won't judge if you want to leave Josh.

Condemmning unwed mothers isn't the best way to sell your pro-life message, Jim Blob.   But oh wait, I forgot you are a total MORON with no integrity.

Edited May 26, 2015 by Gianthambeast

[Chalby]

I think Anna is Naive, JimBob is as sly as Josh, and Michelle is somewhere in the middle. 

And the saddest thing of all is that Anna was not his first choice. He had 2 failed courtships (not sure if both were to the same woman, or 2 different women). So not only does Anna adore this goof, but she has to acknowledge that she was his 3rd choice. In fact, I am sure there are others he would have gladly chosen, but Anna was the one who would not question his deviant history. I am sure JimBob paid dearly for her dowry.

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

If her dad knew EVERYTHING and still allowed her to marry the pervert, then he is absolutely more disgusting that JB and M. He, more than anyone, should have been looking out for her best interest, which was to NOT marry an incestuous pedophilic (is that a word?) pervert.

I wonder how much status and financials played into the decision to marry Anna off to Josh.

First, they'd be marrying into Fundie royalty. Second, I believe Anna's family was poor - definitely when compared to the Duggars. I think the allure of social climbing and a better financial situation may have outweighed making the best decisions for Anna or even by Anna.

My guess is Anna didn't really have too much of a choice once her dad agreed, given their culture. Anna probably wasn't told much more than a vague explanation of what Josh had done. If she was, she was probably told Jesus wanted her to fix him/save him. Anna probably knew her fate in life was going to be to have too many kids with some guy she didn't know very well. Josh Duggar, gross past & all, would at least get her out of her family's trailer and into some TLC/Duggar Motors money with which to raise the numerous kids she'd have no matter which Quiverfull man she ended up with. (I'm not trying to defend why her family - and maybe Anna - married Josh knowing about his past, but I think that these reasons definitely played a part in the decision.)

ETA: Good for the other families/girls that broke off the rumored engagement with Josh. My guess is the Duggars went after Anna for him because they knew how dire her family's financial situation was and that they'd be thrilled to have their daughter marry into Fundie royalty even if the prince of Duggardom was a perv.

Edited May 26, 2015 by MyPeopleAreNordic

[NikSac]

This feels super inaccurate. One of the most interesting things about this whole thing is seeing how the story keeps changing as people keep repeating it.

 

I read the report as best as I could, cause it was really hard with so many of the words blacked out, but what I understood was that he would go into the room when the girls were asleep. There was also a similar incident with a girl who was visiting (or was it babysitting?) and fell asleep on the couch. But things escalated and there was an incident in the middle of the day in the laundry room, plus the reading book incident, which was completely different from the bolded and was probably the worst incident, imo. I found it very disturbing. It is on page 22. It was after the book incident, according to the child being interviewed, that he was sent away, almost immediately.

 

Someone correct me if I got it wrong cause, like I said, it was a headache to read.

 

Yes I had a hard time reading it too!  Between the upsetting nature of it and the blacked out words, not easy. I did re-read that book part several times, and my understanding was that he was reading a book to "all the kids" but she was sitting with him. She pulled up her dress because it had a hole in it (which I still think sounds odd, but whatever, maybe she was just looking at it or something). She had pants on underneath the dress, and he then pulled down her pants and touched her.  Here's the page if you want to look at it and see what you think: http://imgur.com/a/zqPMi#21.  (ETA: and I agree this was the worst incident - or possibly equally as bad as the laundry room one. Not that it's okay at all, but at least the sleeping girls didn't know what happened until they were told.)

Edited May 26, 2015 by NikSac

[Churchhoney]

Based on their statements to the press and on the Gothard teaching and testimonials all over the internet, that's almost certainly how it was presented.  

 

I'm afraid the way this was presented to Anna was that the abuse happened and it was the girls fault, and that if she (Anna) and any future daughters didn't "defraud" or tempt Josh then there wouldn't be anything to worry about. Thus, it's all within her control (which she might find comforting) but also entirely her fault if things go bad.

 

Makes me wonder about the more defrauding going-out clothes Anna's been wearing lately. She seems to have drifted quite a bit from the Gothard defrauding line, at least when it comes to the clothing edicts, since she's been in DC. Hope she doesn't think now that maybe it's her defrauding of men at CPAC conventions that has brought down the devil on her family. Also makes me wonder how she envisioned little girls down to age 5 dressed in prairie skirts OVER pants still manage to defraud Joshie boy. Must have been a big wedge between her and her sisters-in-law, too. And she's been letting Mackynzie wear pajama pants, too, lately, hasn't she? Hope all of this isn't coming back to haunt her and make HER feel guilty. There are enough guilty-feeling women in this situation, I'll bet. .... I almost hope that Anna blames us evil liberals and has forgotten about all the defrauding stuff.

[Zung Li]

I wonder if this will affect the ratings of TLC's new show The Submissive Wives' Guide to Marriage. It premiered last week. If it stays on for any length of time I'm sure there will end up being a scandal involving the people "starring" on the show.

Edited May 26, 2015 by mingming

[Chalby]

 I imagine her secretly reading all the websites while pretending to use the loo this weekend.

She could be reading this.

 

Thank you for posting this. I have always been puzzled with the idea that the Duggars are not allowed to access media, television etc. However, most of them (especially Anna and Josh) have snazzy new phones, websites, etc. What is stopping them from being online 24/7 on their phones? I don't think they are as sheltered as their parents imply.

[Maizie131]

I read the following on another website but couldn't have said it better myself:  "Child sex abuse isn't like other crimes.  It's not just a sin or a criminal offense that goes away once someone's caught -- it's a devastating violation of a person so horrible that victims are often not only left scarred for life, but now more likely to commit the same offenses themselves."  Those poor kids....

[Julia]

I wonder if this will affect the ratings of TLC's new show The Submissive Wives' Guide to Marriage. It premiered last week. If it stays on for any length of time I'm sure there will end up being a scandal involving the people "starring" on the show.

Thing I learned this weekend: the Handmaid's Tale reality lineup on TLC is brought to you by a wife and mother who is a career marketing executive with an ivy league degree and lives in Manhattan.

Edited May 26, 2015 by Julia

[NikSac]

I seem to recall that while reading one of the police reports- that one of the incidents happened in the TTH.  Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Was there more than one police report released?

[wanderwoman]

Bin posted this shortly after he and Jessa started courting..........thoughts?

 

I kept going back to thus, too. If this is what he was referring to, I have way more respect for the man. I also think I can understand why Jessa wanted to keep "the kiss" private. She took control over her sexuality and access to that moment. Good for her.

[Almost 3000]

I wonder how much status and financials played into the decision to marry Anna off to Josh.

First, they'd be marrying into Fundie royalty. Second, I believe Anna's family was poor - definitely when compared to the Duggars. I think the allure of social climbing and a better financial situation may have outweighed making the best decisions for Anna or even by Anna.

My guess is Anna didn't really have too much of a choice once her dad agreed, given their culture. Anna probably wasn't told much more than a vague explanation of what Josh had done. If she was, she was probably told Jesus wanted her to fix him/save him. Anna probably knew her fate in life was going to be to have too many kids with some guy she didn't know very well. Josh Duggar, gross past & all, would at least get her out of her family's trailer and into some TLC/Duggar Motors money with which to raise the numerous kids she'd have no matter which Quiverfull man she ended up with. (I'm not trying to defend why her family - and maybe Anna - married Josh knowing about his past, but I think that these reasons definitely played a part in the decision.)

ETA: Good for the other families/girls that broke off the rumored engagement with Josh. My guess is the Duggars went after Anna for him because they knew how dire her family's financial situation was and that they'd be thrilled to have their daughter marry into Fundie royalty even if the prince of Duggardom was a perv.

Anna's family may not have much but they are a respected family in those circles.

[Literata]

As heinous as Josh's actions were, I admit being concerned about his welfare and that of his family this weekend. He has a wife and soon-to-be four kids depending on him; I've been half-scared to get online and find he's harmed himself. I hope he's managing to keep his shit together for Anna and the kids.

And those kids ... as smart as MacKynzie is, I'm sure she realizes something is horribly wrong. I wonder how the situation is being handled, both with the M-kids and with the Lost Girls and howlers.

[wanderwoman]

I think Josh is probably going through hell and I take no joy in knowing that. I've felt that panic when a choice you made impacts your life so gravely and decidedly. Once again, I keep going back to his parents. What Josh did was unequivocally wrong and his victims were/are deserving of compassion, help, and justice. But, Josh was also deserving of real help and accountability. His parents made choices that took this from a devastating family issue to a public debate and shaming. They pushed their family into the spot light without considering the impact that fame would have if these things were revealed. They failed all of their children. Josh was a teenager - then he grew up and literally took a position on a high horse without considering how far he had to fall.

Edited May 26, 2015 by wanderwoman

[Found A Peanut]

Yeah, it's funny. I do feel sure that the Keller parents knew, and that that part played out exactly as you say.

 

For some reason, I still have this image of everybody talking kind of vaguely around Anna -- I guess it's because I think of all the older generation clubbing together and deciding that she MUST be married off to Josh in a big hurry and then sort of soft-pedaling everything in her presence to ensure that she'll be thrilled. Don't get that idea from anywhere except from a scene that's played out in my head, though! I guess I see them treating Anna like a child-woman who wouldn't count among the adults and as a very important means to an end. ... But, as I said, all in my head, perhaps.

You know, I don't think you're wrong about Anna being treated as a child-woman and as a means to an end, but I think that's what it means to be a woman in the patriarchy. If Anna's father was the main decision maker, it's still not even close to the most extreme example around of courtship and betrothal among these Christian medievalists. I do feel sorry for Anna that everything in her life was aimed at this, marriage and birthing children, and now it's all gone to hell. There are no Plan Bs for Gothard women, she's well and truly stuck unless she has it in her to break her own mold. Anna's always given the appearance of being a true blue believer, though. More so than Josh, truth be told. And it was supposedly a long courtship by Duggar standards, something like two years. I think when they were truly desperate to get him married was when he was in that alleged betrothal to the Holt girl at like 14. Insane.

[3 is enough]

 

And those kids ... as smart as MacKynzie is, I'm sure she realizes something is horribly wrong. I wonder how the situation is being handled, both with the M-kids and with the Lost Girls and howlers.

Not sure about the M-kids, but I imagine the Howlers and Lost Girls have been told nothing and have been left to fend for themselves- in other words, business as usual.

No one knows where Josh and Anna are- they were seen at the airport on Wednesday, but they could have gone to Arkansas or Florida.  I can't imagine the prodigal son would be very welcome at the TTH this weekend.  And I can't see Ben or Derick welcoming him with open arms either.

 

Does anyone know if the Duggars get residual money for reruns? If they do, that has to hurt.  And hitting Jim Bob in the wallet may be the unforgivable sin that Josh will not be forgiven for committing.

[Aw my lahgs]

Thank you for posting this. I have always been puzzled with the idea that the Duggars are not allowed to access media, television etc. However, most of them (especially Anna and Josh) have snazzy new phones, websites, etc. What is stopping them from being online 24/7 on their phones? I don't think they are as sheltered as their parents imply.

 

The thing is - they may have restrictions while under Gin bops roof - now that Josh is his own headship, it's pretty much unrestricted (so he can have unlimited pork on his phone). I'm convinced he reads about himself. Some of the older girls that have the password as well I'm also sure they do more than we are made to believe (social media, random browsing).

[bluebonnet]

 

No one knows where Josh and Anna are- they were seen at the airport on Wednesday, but they could have gone to Arkansas or Florida.  I can't imagine the prodigal son would be very welcome at the TTH this weekend.  And I can't see Ben or Derick welcoming him with open arms either.

 

I feel super gross and stalkery for even knowing the answer to this, but every news article I've read over the past few days mention that when Josh was last seen, he was arriving back in DC, so his last known whereabouts was DC.  I presumed he was at home and felt mildly surprised that we weren't seeing imagines of cameras camped outside his home.  

[Aw my lahgs]

I think Josh is probably going through hell and I take no joy in knowing that. I've felt that panic when a choice you made impacts your life so gravely and decidedly. Once again, I keep going back to his parents. What Josh did was unequivocally wrong and his victims were/are deserving of compassion, help, and justice. But, Josh was also deserving of real help and accountability. His parents made choices that took this from a devastating family issue to a public debate and shaming. They pushed their family into the spot light without considering the impact that fame would have if these things were revealed. They failed all of their children. Josh was a teenager - then he grew up and literally took a position on a high horse without considering how far he had to fall.

 

Real help may or may not have helped him (opinions in the professional world are mixed if teen molesters can be helped).

 

Instead, they blame it all on the girls and treat him as a victim and protect him as much as possible and don't hold him accountable whatsoever.

 

I'm sure Gin bop and MEchelle blame the girls.

[Chalby]

 All of the decent women I know -- regardless their religion or politics -- would help her financially in a heartbeat. 

I have this horrible fear that Anna has absolutely no access to monies her and Josh may have made during filming. In fact, I often feel as though all the girls are locked out of any financial accounts. Since their belief is that a girl is her father's  financial responsibility until a husband takes over, they may justify this exemption as 'providing for' their women. I just have a fear that the Duggar women (by birth or marriage) are kept in the dark, financially.

[Almost 3000]

I feel super gross and stalkery for even knowing the answer to this, but every news article I've read over the past few days mention that when Josh was last seen, he was arriving back in DC, so his last known whereabouts was DC.  I presumed he was at home and felt mildly surprised that we weren't seeing imagines of cameras camped outside his home.

It is interesting that the media isn't camped out but then my yahoo feed hasn't had the Duggars trending 100% of the time either like it did with Bruce Jenner.

[3 is enough]

 

I feel super gross and stalkery for even knowing the answer to this, but every news article I've read over the past few days mention that when Josh was last seen, he was arriving back in DC, so his last known whereabouts was DC.  I presumed he was at home and felt mildly surprised that we weren't seeing imagines of cameras camped outside his home.

Thanks for the answer.  Wonder if he took Anna and the kids somewhere safe where they could weather the storm? Maybe her parents or one of her sisters?  If so at least he is capable of doing SOMETHING decent.

[Readalot]

"19 kids and counting is currently unavailable. Please try again later" Time Warner San Diego On Demand when trying to access a listed episode. I had not watched Digging in with the Duggars yet on my DVR but I went to watch it now and because of Friday's marathon it knocked it off my list (I only keep 6 episodes). - Thank you to all mods and posters. Proud to be a part of this amazing group. I wish I could give you all hugs. This nightmare has brought about rage for me again regarding my nephews molestation by his uncle when they were 8 and 16 respectively, this was found out 5 years ago. I can only imagine how the survivors are feeling this past few days and I weep for them! WHY DID J AND M NOT FEEL RAGE? Why is not everyone feeling rage on how this was handled? I'm Christian AND I DONT SEE HOW THESE INCIDENCES ARE CONSIDERED MISTAKES. I'm sorry. Hugs to all survivors reading this and to all who support the Duggar survivors.

[Literata]

I think Josh is probably going through hell and I take no joy in knowing that. I've felt that panic when a choice you made impacts your life so gravely and decidedly. Once again, I keep going back to his parents. What Josh did was unequivocally wrong and his victims were/are deserving of compassion, help, and justice. But, Josh was also deserving of real help and accountability. His parents made choices that took this from a devastating family issue to a public debate and shaming. They pushed their family into the spot light without considering the impact that fame would have if these things were revealed. They failed all of their children. Josh was a teenager - then he grew up and literally took a position on a high horse without considering how far he had to fall.

You said very eloquently what I had been trying to express. Thank you. I think very few of us take any joy in this, and I daresay we've all had those little ones on our minds this weekend.

[MrsMommy]

Christians should forgive when they are ready, it days in the bible to forgive as you are forgiven. So I have no doubt eventually if they haven't already the girls will forgive josh.

Take a step back and think about it as if Josh was your son, you love your kids unconditionally right? I can't say that I would turn my son in. I'd get him help no doubt but to make my son spend time in prison at the age of 14 just isn't something I see myself being able to do.

[CherryAmes]

I can't say that I would turn my son in. I'd get him help no doubt but to make my son spend time in prison at the age of 14 just isn't something I see myself being able to do.

 

I don't fault the Duggars for not "turning their son in" even though I doubt very much prison would ever have been an option.  I fault them for not doing anything to actually help their son, and even more I fault them for not doing much of anything to keep him away from their daughters.  Sending him off to help build a house and making their daughters sleep in their clothes just isn't cutting it for me in the "we did our best" department!

[JoanArc]

 

Take a step back and think about it as if Josh was your son, you love your kids unconditionally right? I can't say that I would turn my son in. I'd get him help no doubt but to make my son spend time in prison at the age of 14 just isn't something I see myself being able to do.

I would get my daughter help by making sure her attacker could never hurt her again. However that's accomplished.

[MrsMommy]

Right joan I would make sure my daughter was never hurt again, I'd make either of my son's go for treatment as well as my daughter, but they are still all my children and I'd die for any of them. Prison isn't a option in home

[BitterApple]

I hate to defend the Duggars but there's no evidence that JimBob banned Anna's sister from their home. That was tabloid/Internet rumor.

[MichaelaRae]

I don't get the questions about "who". His SISTERS. Isn't that enough?

 

His victims were, as far as the reports and data about the family can be interpreted, potentially between the ages of 5 and 12. Isn't THAT enough? Blood relationships have nothing to do with the horror of what he did.

 

(I'm uncomfortable with the idea that somehow it's "more" horrible because it's incest. He molested young girls who were not capable of consent. That is ENOUGH. His relationship to them is beside the point to me.)

Edited May 26, 2015 by MichaelaRae

[Dawn16]

I would get my daughter help by making sure her attacker could never hurt her again. However that's accomplished.

Yes.   And I would never ever teach her that females tempt and "defraud" men.  To have emphasized that "lesson" to daughters who were molested is beyond horrifying. 

[Chalby]

Take a step back and think about it as if Josh was your son, you love your kids unconditionally right? I can't say that I would turn my son in. I'd get him help no doubt but to make my son spend time in prison at the age of 14 just isn't something I see myself being able to do.

When I review the recent 'confession' of Josh, I have to shake my head. Imagine if Josh, at 14, had come forward and openly listed his transgressions. Imagine him weeping, apologizing over and over to the victims, as well as the community. Imagine him re-dedicating himself to God and to service. Imagine that he and his family were quietly devout, and they always refuse to pass judgement against any people, groups, etc. stating that God loves all and doesn't look for labels such as 'gay'. If THAT were the family and boy who committed these crimes, the community would be reaching out, supporting the family, providing names of good therapists, ensuring the girls involved knew it wasn't their fault and not to feel guilty. We all would have been tripping over each other to help. The facts are: the Duggar family is arrogant, judgemental, entitled, and ignorantly so. They have no comprehension (or compassion) of how ridiculous they all appear.

 

And I have to share one private point - I have three sons. They all know that I can forgive them of almost anything - (even to an extent, murder). But they also have known from the time they were little, I cannot forgive crimes against children, vulnerable women/disabled persons, and dependent animals. Yes, I would have reported my son. And it would not have come as a surprise to them.

Edited May 26, 2015 by Chalby

[bluebonnet]

Christians should forgive when they are ready, it days in the bible to forgive as you are forgiven. So I have no doubt eventually if they haven't already the girls will forgive josh.

Take a step back and think about it as if Josh was your son, you love your kids unconditionally right? I can't say that I would turn my son in. I'd get him help no doubt but to make my son spend time in prison at the age of 14 just isn't something I see myself being able to do.

Loving unconditionally doesn't mean not providing appropriate responses to certain events.  It does the offender no favors by treating sexual abuse as though it's no different than stealing a piece of gum.  It's unlikely the 14 year old would be sent to prison.  Most likely a juvenile detention center at best. Most of the punishment will consist of mandatory treatment.   Furthermore, the victims deserve to receive care and any legitimate care providers are going to be mandatory reporters.  Unless you're willing to ignore the needs of the victims, the offender is going to be reported no matter how much you wish otherwise.  

 

Through it all, you can keep loving your children unconditionally, the offender and victims alike.  

[Wellfleet]

I wonder how much status and financials played into the decision to marry Anna off to Josh.

First, they'd be marrying into Fundie royalty. Second, I believe Anna's family was poor - definitely when compared to the Duggars. I think the allure of social climbing and a better financial situation may have outweighed making the best decisions for Anna or even by Anna.

My guess is Anna didn't really have too much of a choice once her dad agreed, given their culture. Anna probably wasn't told much more than a vague explanation of what Josh had done. If she was, she was probably told Jesus wanted her to fix him/save him. Anna probably knew her fate in life was going to be to have too many kids with some guy she didn't know very well. Josh Duggar, gross past & all, would at least get her out of her family's trailer and into some TLC/Duggar Motors money with which to raise the numerous kids she'd have no matter which Quiverfull man she ended up with. (I'm not trying to defend why her family - and maybe Anna - married Josh knowing about his past, but I think that these reasons definitely played a part in the decision.)

ETA: Good for the other families/girls that broke off the rumored engagement with Josh. My guess is the Duggars went after Anna for him because they knew how dire her family's financial situation was and that they'd be thrilled to have their daughter marry into Fundie royalty even if the prince of Duggardom was a perv.

 

IIRC, GEML said, quite a while back, that the Kellers were much more fundie-royal than the Duggars, and it was actually Josh who was marrying up.

[JenCarroll]

A huge red flag that an item might not be on the up and up is that if it comes along after a major scandal breaks, when it's really easy for anyone looking to be a part of the story to take what's known and go the real person fan fiction route with it. The people who run CDaN and BlindGossip probably couldn't even spell Duggar three days ago and now they're insiders? Sure. 

 

The blind item was printed in January, months before the Josh scandal broke.

[Sew Sumi]

edited out quote 

 

A friend of mine drove by Chez Smug over the weekend. All was quiet. No media, blinds drawn. 

 

There is no evidence that the Kellers were higher-ups in the Gothard organization. Mike Keller ran an independent prison ministry. NOW, IBLP sends down some true believers a couple times a year (with David Waller in charge) for ministry. The first contact we know that they had with Gothard was sending Anna and Prissy to JTTH back in 2007 (pics exist). Duggar daughters and those awful pink polo shirts were also present. t

 

As for What Anna Really Knew, I lean toward her knowing what Josh put out on the website: he had "struggles" and was repentant. Now, saying that is very vague and can mean that he had impure thoughts. No way that Anna knew the full extent of his actual struggles. It's hard to say what Pa Keller knew, but if he knew more, I doubt he even told his (lowly) wife. And if he knowingly married Anna off to a sexual predator, shame the fuck on him. But then again, he married another daughter off to John Shrader and another to David Waller. Josh McDonald is the real keeper out of the bunch; he's the one who posted on TWOP about Josh and Anna's wedding. He's been out of ATI for quite some time now, not long after their marriage 10 or so years ago.

Edited May 26, 2015 by Sew Sumi

[Georgia]

I missed a lot of this because I was offline for the Jewish holiday of Shavout (celebrating when G-d gave us the Torah). I'm heartsick. I knew the rumors about Josh, but I assumed that his "sin" was normal teenage macking, with a fellow consenting teen. I actually felt sorry for him. 

 

As someone who practices religious modesty, I am outraged to see it perverted and twisted by these people. In the Modern Orthodox tradition it's about dignity and ensuring that men and women can connect and interact intellectually and spiritually, without being distracted by the physical. It's also about not drawing attention to yourself, so that your actions and words count for more than your appearance. It is NOT about keeping women and girls (barf) from "defrauding" men. Immodest dress is never, ever acceptable as an excuse to abuse women or children and it is a man's responsibility to manage his own urges. Since the rabbis in my synagogue are all also mandated reporters, they would definitely turn anyone like Josh in to the authorities. Knowing them as I do, it wouldn't even be a discussion. Nor would it be in most non-fundamentalist churches, I believe.

 

I am also a mandated reported for my state and I have reported in the past. While we don't find out the results of the investigation (unless the child is removed from the home, etc.), we can still look out for that child. While we couldn't call people up and say, "Hey, I think Jessie's dad is beating on her or worse," we could and did say, "Hey, keep an eye on Jessie. I think she's having trouble at home." That is actually code that we used - "having trouble at home." It kept everything confidential, but it helped us to make sure that a vulnerable child had adults in her life doing their best to keep her safe. It's heartbreaking that none of the victims had that.

 

I was a Religion major at (secular) college and I did my junior seminar paper on sex abuse cases within the Catholic Churches in the US and US evangelicals. From the research I've done, I feel confident stating that this is just the tip of the iceberg. I'm also sure that Anna and her parents knew everything. I remember reading about a man who molested 3 generations of his own family - his sisters, daughters, and granddaughters. They all forgave him and "sang him into the loving arms of Jesus," when he died of old age. There is no restitution in this culture - no penance to be done, no reparations to be made to the victims. Once the criminal asks for forgiveness and says that he gives himself over to Jesus, he's forgiven.

This will cost them all, though, one way or another. The Catholic Church has lost $2 billion so far. Even the most dire prediction were only for $1 billion.

[KateUK]

I agree. Anna will never leave Josh.  Not only would she have nowhere to go, she doesn't have anyone in her life who would encourage her to leave him. Even her own parents and at least one sister (Priscilla) will tell her she must stay, trust that God will take care of everything. She's had 24+ years of Gothard training and conditioning about what it means to be a "Godly wife". She's in it for the long-haul.

 

Agree with the above, Anna's world has come crashing down around her I bet her thoughts are full of confusion and panic but, she is too 'institutionalised' into that life style to ever break free.

 

This is a girl who has never had an original thought or opinion of her own, I very much doubt that even the thought of leaving Josh has crossed her mind, instead she will spend a lot of time praying about the situation.

 

And even if she did leave, where would she go and what would she do? Three young children and another due, no money and no education, and doubtful if her own family would step in and help her, no, I'm thinking better the devil you know, she isn't going anywhere.

[SometimesBites]

Take a step back and think about it as if Josh was your son, you love your kids unconditionally right? I can't say that I would turn my son in. I'd get him help no doubt but to make my son spend time in prison at the age of 14 just isn't something I see myself being able to do.

[snip]

 

I have four sons and a step-daughter (and a deceased daughter). Of course I love them unconditionally. My unconditional love does not preclude me from dealing with their problems proactively and as wisely as possible, however. The Duggars did not do that with Josh, and as a result he continued to molest his little sisters. The entire family needed professional counseling and, based on the timeline and Josh's continued molestation of the girls, Josh, his parents, and his entire household should have had long-term monitoring from social services.

 

And all that is true REGARDLESS of how his sisters may currently be coping with what happened when they were little.

Edited May 26, 2015 by bigskygirl
First paragraph edited out-attacking other poster

[Lillybee]

I really feel compassion for the Duggar daughters.

1. they were molested by the brother that they were taught to look up to and obey.

2. they were forced to forgive me and I believe apologize to him for defrauding him.

3.they were forced to live with their molester, never knowing if he would invade their bodies again. They had to sit across the dining room table from him for meals, homeschooling and bible time.

4. they had to cook his meals, launder his clothes including his skid marked undies, clean his pee in the bathrooms and pack his stuff for trips.

5. they had to babysit his children and travel with him

6. they had to keep sweet and practice instant obedience while doing this.

 

I really worry about the level of guilt that these poor girls have to carry.

[Maharincess]

I know this has been said but it can't be said enough. My heart goes out to all of you who are survivors of sexual abuse. Your strength is an inspiration. The grandma part of me wishes I could gather you all up, give you all hugs and help heal your pain.

I'm sending big, warm grandma hugs to all of you.

[Higgins]

While all those kids are raised in a terrible environment and subject to brainwashing and oppression, this is not an excuse to become a child molester. Plenty of boys and girls are raised the same way without becoming sexual predators. Also, it is true that teens are held to different legal standards because teens tend to do stupid things ;). In my opinion, this does not apply to molesting multiple young children over a period of years!

 

Please read this article, it is a great article on child molesters. Spot on.  http://www.chabad.org/theJewishWoman/article_cdo/aid/1707466/jewish/Things-You-Need-to-Know-About-Child-Molesters.htm

 

Pedophiles and child molesters often start in their teens.

I don't excuse his behavior, in fact, I stated that in my post.

[Celia Rubenstein]

Like Found at Peanut says, I take Anna at her word.  Everything she says rings true based on her own belief system.  Just read the testimonials of people who grew up in it.  The article I linked has the author discussing how he was so sure he wouldn't be able to marry because he would one day have to confess to his future wife and her father every single lurid thought he ever had.  This is what they do, they confess it and they repent and then everything is gravy.  If you read through other testimonials, you'll see that yes, even the women have to confess these things to their parents.  The Duggar girls discuss it in their own book.  

 

It's a completely different culture, a very different world.  Normal people just can't imagine something like this because it is so very different.  But if Anna and her parents didn't act exactly as she claims they did, it would be an indication that they weren't actually good Gothardites.  

 

Wow, bluebonnet, I read the article you linked.  It was very powerful.  All this being forced to confess every thought to not only your own father/parents but to your future wife's father was news to me.  Maybe Anna really did know everything.  Damn.

 

In light of this it is not surprising at all that the Duggars responded to the situation the way they did, or that so many fellow fundies are rallying behind them.  They have an entirely different understanding of the causes of Josh's behavior and accountability for such things.  It's really shocking.  I had no idea.  I can see now how they sincerely believe if you just confess and say you're sorry, you get forgiven and it's all over.  What a twisted view of things.  

 

Now I'm actually surprised the Duggars involved the police at all.  I suspect there may have been some concerns about church elders being designated reporters of abuse or something. maybe.  They seem to have no respect for the law at all, and it was probably just a CYA move.  I am sure they took the fact that the case went nowhere as a sign from God that he approved of their approach.  

 

I don't recall much about this "accountability" thing ever being on the show.  The whole admitting everything you ever think of to your parents, I mean.  Was that ever delved into and I just missed it?  Or was that too big a truth about their belief system to share with the public? 

Edited May 26, 2015 by Celia Rubenstein

[Micks Picks]

The truly awful thing is these girls have to keep coming into contact with Josh, and putting up with his BS.  They can't forget or get over it, IMO.

 

Keller is in prison ministry and probably actually thinks he is doing great good and that many prisoners have truly made the transition into God fearing men.  It isn't true, but the religion times give the prisoners something to do, and the religion makes them a better bet to get parole.  Heck, even they probably believe it until 10 minutes after they walk out of jail.  Then it's all gone.  But Keller points to his long term converts as success stories.  He thinks he's done a great deal of good.  I've seen these guys when they are out.  It doesn't last.

 

Keller seems to live with more joy than the Duggars, as do the Bates.  Keller is an elder from all I have read, and has a place on the boards.  He needs the money, as the prices to put that many kids through all those JTTH classes and so on costs big money.  ALERT isn't cheap.  Nor are their introductory Basic LIfe Principle classes.  That sort of thing would be a sacrafice for me.  I'd rather spend it on broader pursuits.  To each his own I guess.

[bluebonnet]

 

Now I'm actually surprised the Duggars involved the police at all.  I suspect there may have been some concerns about church elders being designated reporters of abuse or something. maybe.  They seem to have no respect for the law at all, and it was probably just a CYA move.  I am sure they took the fact that the case went nowhere as a sign from God that he approved of their approach.  

The trooper was allegedly a family friend.  It reminded me of when I was young, I did something dumb and insignificant like violate curfew or sneak into an R rated movie.  Whatever it was, my father took me to the neighbor, who happened to be a cop and a family friend.  The neighbor cop gave me a stern talking, scaring me about how he was going to be nice this time and not arrest me for my deviant behavior but that if I continued on that path, horrible things would happen to me, like going to prison or not being allowed to go to senior prom.  

 

I imagine that this cop did the same thing, only everyone was treating a minor molesting children as something insignificant like coming home five minutes late or a 16 year old seeing an R rated film.  I think the only reason they went to the cop is because they already knew how he would react, like how my own father knew exactly what my neighbor cop would do when he marched me over to his house to receive a stern talking. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Take a step back and think about it as if Josh was your son, you love your kids unconditionally right? I can't say that I would turn my son in. I'd get him help no doubt but to make my son spend time in prison at the age of 14 just isn't something I see myself being able to do.

Loving unconditionally doesn't mean not providing appropriate responses to certain events.  It does the offender no favors by treating sexual abuse as though it's no different than stealing a piece of gum.  It's unlikely the 14 year old would be sent to prison.  Most likely a juvenile detention center at best. Most of the punishment will consist of mandatory treatment.   Furthermore, the victims deserve to receive care and any legitimate care providers are going to be mandatory reporters.  Unless you're willing to ignore the needs of the victims, the offender is going to be reported no matter how much you wish otherwise. 

 

Through it all, you can keep loving your children unconditionally, the offender and victims alike.

ITA and I would like to add that loving unconditionally doesn't mean ignoring your child's bad behavior. If your kid shoplifts something, you can make him to back to the store to admit what he did, return the item, pay for it, and apologize. That doesn't mean you don't love him unconditionally. It means that you are teaching him right from wrong and that we have to face the consequences when we do something that is not only morally wrong but also illegal.

 

Loving someone unconditionally doesn't mean ignoring their mistakes. It means acknowledging that they made the wrong choice but you still love them. If your son got into a car accident, would you report it to the police and your car insurance? Or would you just pat him on the arm and tell him not to worry about it? There are so many instances when your children will make mistakes and you can love them unconditionally but still not let them pretend it didn't happen.

 

You can love your toddler unconditionally as he's having a temper tantrum but that doesn't mean you let him keep having temper tantrums without a timeout or some other kind of consequence. Being a parent means teaching your child what is acceptable behavior and what is not, setting boundaries, telling them when they have done something wrong, and taking steps to ensure that they won't make he same mistake again.

 

And if you love your children unconditionally, how does letting the perpetrator live in the same house having daily contact with his victims show your other children, the four daughters who were molested and violated, that you love THEM unconditionally? Forcing them to live with their abuser sends the message that you love them conditionally and that the abuser's feelings are more important than the victims' feelings. That's shitty parenting.

Edited May 26, 2015 by ElectricBoogaloo

[Celia Rubenstein]

 I think the only reason they went to the cop is because they already knew how he would react, like how my own father knew exactly what my neighbor cop would do when he marched me over to his house to receive a stern talking. 

 

Gee, you'd think the threat of eternal damnation would be enough to put Josh on the straight and narrow.  But I guess when that didn't work,  more earthly measures were called for.  Cue the Duggar version of "Scared Straight."

 

I can only hope it worked.  But I have a flaming doubts.  Years of incarceration and treatment often fails to change behavior like his. I find it hard to believe a stern lecture from a child pornographer did much good. 

[Micks Picks]

In Calif we have a prison set aside for trying to change sex abusers, mentally, chemically, and surgically.  The treatment extends the length of their sentences, although in some cases they are in on indefinite sentences.  Change the behavior or you don't ever get out.  Once in awhile somebody makes it out anyway and then the search is on for where they can live.  Basically no where is far enough away from potential victims.  Sometimes the only place is a trailer on prison grounds where they can live but go out with monitors on and cops watching.  You just can't stop some of them, ever.  Odd that we now have female teacher molesters, many of them.  I can't see falling in love with a 12 year old boy.  Anybody?