Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[alt0233]

As for a "cover-up", I think those words are too strong; they kept something that is private, private.

Nope. If the issue was that they'd helped Josh's girlfriend get an abortion after consentual sex - that's keeping something private private. Touching your sisters while you sleep is a crime, not a private family matter.

[satrunrose]

 

. But what do these people do? They film specials for Discovery/TLC about their family.

This. This has really been bugging me today. I can try to put aside my considerable cynicism/skepticism and, for the sake of argument, accept that Josh's punishment/renovation work/whatever actually worked and he repented and confessed. He might have completely reformed and became a perfectly respectable, upstanding hate-monger (oops, said I wouldn't be cynical, didn't I?). If his parents hadn't sold out to TLC, this story would never have broken and no one would have ever known. How could the Boob and Meechelle have agreed to put their children on tv knowing they had this massive skeleton in their closet that was bound to come out sooner or later and ruin everyones life? They can't have believed it would stay quiet forever. 

[Shibori]

As much as I'm repulsed by Mama June's decisions, she's not wrong on this one. It is a double standard. TLC is all about extremes- Mama June (who was thirteen when she got pregnant with her first child) was famous for being train-wreck trashy, and the Duggars for being train-wreck pious. Should we be surprised that either crashed and burned?

[LilyoftheValley]

This. This has really been bugging me today. I can try to put aside my considerable cynicism/skepticism and, for the sake of argument, accept that Josh's punishment/renovation work/whatever actually worked and he repented and confessed. He might have completely reformed and became a perfectly respectable, upstanding hate-monger (oops, said I wouldn't be cynical, didn't I?). If his parents hadn't sold out to TLC, this story would never have broken and no one would have ever known. How could the Boob and Meechelle have agreed to put their children on tv knowing they had this massive skeleton in their closet that was bound to come out sooner or later and ruin everyones life? They can't have believed it would stay quiet forever. 

Because to them it was all over.  Josh said he was sorry, did his penance, and the girls forgave him.  It was done by that point.  

[BitterApple]

Oddly enough they might have believed it. After all, they've managed to skate on everything else: their connections to Gothard, their affiliations with hate groups, their religious extremism etc. In their minds they're special snowflakes who are above it all. According to their homeschool guide abuse has no real victim, so for them it was just business as usual.

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

TLC was fully aware that Oprah sent them all packing from Chicago without appearing on her show, and they know exactly why too. Harpo Productions is a giant with a slew of legal resources that clearly verified the information and deemed it true enough to send the Duggars swiftly back to Arkansas. TLC had a contract with the Duggars and were very much aware of the reasons they were cancelled from the Oprah show.

"Take note, you have sinned against the Lord; and be sure OPRAH will find you out (when you famewhore)."

(just ask James Frey)

Seriously, if you have these kinds of skeletons in your closet, don't go on reality TV or Oprah.

[GeeGolly]

As far as cover up, I was referring to not making this public. I was not referring to not handling the matter.

[Wellfleet]

I hope Jimmy went there, too. Now if the Little Couple has a scandal, I will actually be devastated. That's the only reality couple that i hold any standards or credibility to. They seem like really good people. 

 

I know, right? Whatever happened to that nice Table for 12 family? Bring them back, TLC - if they want to, that is. And pay them big. I loved the parents, the kids were all nice and cute, they seemed very down-to-earth etc. Me-chelle Duggar had all her kids in her house virtually all the time, and with other people taking care of practically all their needs. And didn't have to cope with schools or outside interests. Mrs Table for 12 - what was their name - managed quads or quints or sextuplets, school schedules for 12 kids, dance classes, sports practices, Scouting, church, her household, a little girl with CP, her marriage etc with no staff, no millions and no love offerings. She beats Me-chelle by a mile in my book! 

Edited May 24, 2015 by Wellfleet

[LilyoftheValley]

Yeah I suppose if you sincerely think the way they do, then how they handled all this was fine.  You just have to seek forgiveness and get it and then everything is good again.  

[neural-plasticity]

I'm sad to see the Seewald's support of Huckabee. Honestly, after seeing that, any hope of thinking the girls would leave is gone. They've drank the kool-aid and been brain washed for so long they have no idea how else to live. I'm really sad for them.

That picture of the children around the same time this all happened was sad too. It was especially sad to see how JB and Michelle already weren't interested in their other kids, besides the younger ones, in that picture.

[irisheyes]

Yeah I get it.  I am pointing out that the "emporer has no clothes" in that statement so to speak.  I really must question how religious the Duggars truly are.  I guess they are in a way, but they have this incredibly immature and childish view of Christianity.  Like, I do not think that the concept of forgiveness is really about just pushing a problem into the darkness and never dealing with it.  And I also do not think that issuing a deceptive statement conforms with the ten commandments.  And I sure as shit am confused as to how having a television show all about yourself is in any way modest.  The Bates family seems just a bit more sincere and deep about their religion, for example.  Anyway, this event really drove it home to me much more than ever.  The Duggars are not actual Christians.  They like the superficial stuff like holding memorials for a stillborn, and wearing long skirts to look pious.  But when they use their religion in the context of something like child molestation, you can see quite clearly that they do not understand one of the key tenets of Christianity, namely contrition and forgiveness.  I really don't thing that a single person in that family has really ever sat down with the Bible and truly thought deeply about what is in there.  It is why they are so loud about the things that are on their level of comprehension, like long hair and women doing the laundry.  Things like pride, modesty, repentence, and forgiveness are simply too complicated for them.

I want to marry this post. So, so true. I live in redder than red Georgia, and this is what I see so many times. It's all about looking good, but when real live children are suffering, then we all avert our eyes.

[CatS]

Dollars to doughnuts, when the gravy train dries up and Jim Bob says, sorry Joshie Boy, got hairspray to buy over here, you're on your own, Josh will be the one to sell out the family with the tell all book/special. Next year or five years from now, he'll be the one weak and greedy enough to do it.

Though I sincerely hope it's one of the girls and she roasts his balls and her parents over the coals, I don't see it. Unless it's all the girls together, they'd be worried about the fallout for the others.

[Happyfatchick]

Welcome. You can go to the Small Talk thread.

The Prayer Closet is our small talk thread. (Sorry, Fuzz - that confused me when I first started here).

And SHOOT! I wasn't trying to tell YOU that, Fuzzysox, I was trying to say it to the person YOU answered. I'm leaving the post though, since there are so many new posters. It may point someone else in the right direction. Maybe the original person will even see it eventually.

Edited May 24, 2015 by Happyfatchick

[nodorothyparker]

I don't think the political establishment knew it at that time, but something made Jim Bob very unappealing to the party.  He just didn't get support.  It makes me wonder what it was that made him so unappealing at that time.

 

I was in Little Rock media at the time of the Senate run and the now famous pic of them all dressed as extras from The Handmaid's Tale.  At the time the conventional wisdom about him was that he wasn't particularly smart or savvy and was a total one-issue candidate.  While he certainly babbled a fair bit about "faith and family," everything else out of his mouth was abortion, abortion, abortion.  He was also regarded as something of an oddity in political circles because he was already even then trying to make his claim to fame on having more kids than everyone else and was always dragging Josh all around the Statehouse where kids really didn't belong.  

 

Religion will get you a long way in Arkansas but this was before the rise of the Tea Party and all the full-bore pandering to the far-right Mike Huckabee element.  Jim Bob was simply too out there for most Arkansans.

Edited May 24, 2015 by nodorothyparker

[Quilt Fairy]

Another great blog post by Libby Anne of Love, Joy, Feminism:

 

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2015/05/anna-duggar-and-the-silencing-power-of-forgiveness.html

[LilyoftheValley]

Dollars to doughnuts, when the gravy train dries up and Jim Bob says, sorry Joshie Boy, got hairspray to buy over here, you're on your own, Josh will be the one to sell out the family with the tell all book/special. Next year or five years from now, he'll be the one weak and greedy enough to do it.

Though I sincerely hope it's one of the girls and she roasts his balls and her parents over the coals, I don't see it. Unless it's all the girls together, they'd be worried about the fallout for the others.

Though I can get complely behind the sentiment, I truly hope that this family can work out their issues before anyone "escapes" and the consequence of that is that they are estranged from the famiy.  When all is said and down, at the very least the siblings appear to love and care about each other.  I do not think that the Duggars even come close to appreciating the amount off work it takes to ensure that a group that size has healthy relationships with each other.

[3 is enough]

 

Dollars to doughnuts, when the gravy train dries up and Jim Bob says, sorry Joshie Boy, got hairspray to buy over here, you're on your own, Josh will be the one to sell out the family with the tell all book/special. Next year or five years from now, he'll be the one weak and greedy enough to do it.

Oh yes.  Absolutely.

 

How ironic that he finally is front page news- just not the way he thought he would be.

Edited May 24, 2015 by 3 is enough

[NikSac]

I am a lawyer.  Once you take on a client, even just for a short period of time, you develop an attorney-client relationship and a lot comes along with that.  It is very hard to "fire" a client.  I most certainly would not have taken this on under the circumstances.  This would have been a highly sensitive case which involved several minor children and two adults who are quite weird.  The smartest thing a lawyer can do is just to refuse outright.  You could meet with them briefly just to discuss some preliminary matters and now under the law you are their lawyer.  It's not worth it.  

 

Thank you for the insight. That explains the wording in the police report then. The original attorney seemed so adamant about having it stated that he was 'not the attorney of record."  I looked them both up online and the first one specializes in criminal defense law (not sure if he has a particular specialty within that) and DUI/DWI.  I couldn't find much more on him. The second one (from his website) "...handles criminal cases including all felony, misdemeanor and juvenile delinquency matters. Kent also covers criminal appeals and administrative hearings relating to child maltreatment investigations and sex offender registration issues." I'm going with neither of them wanted to be tied to this case, as you said maybe due to the sensitive nature of it, maybe weirdness of the parents, or maybe they were already aware it was going to be tough with the statute of limitations thing.

[Hpmec]

Angeltoes, you beat me to it. Cathy's husband, even though we've only seen him briefly a couple of times, doesn't hide his disdain for the Duggars. He's the most genuine person on this trainwreck of a show - a world weary type with no tolerance for b.s. How I'd love to have been a fly on the wall the past couple of days to hear his opinion of this whole unfortunate mess. You just know he's in full on "I told you so" mode. I'm pretty sure that after this, he'll avoid the Duggars like the plague.

I'm wondering when and how Josh will resurface. I can see him putting in appearances at fundie churches giving testimony, begging forgiveness, and passing the plate -especially passing the plate. His political career is over before it started, and as a well known child molester, he can pretty much forget doing anything that would put him into contact with the general public. Making tearful appearances before the fundie faithful seems to be his best bet for now unless Huckabee finds something for him to do and keeps it quiet. But, I wouldn't put it past him to eventually do a tell all interview for big bucks in order to stay afloat.He's only in his mid 20s with a wife and (soon) 4 children, back taxes due, and limited options.

Edited May 24, 2015 by Hpmec

[cooksdelight]

I am not being snarky or sarcastic here but I do not understand why we cannot speculate on this.  It will never be proven one way or another, and we have continuously speculated as to how the Duggar upbringing has produced certain behaviors among the children.  It seems completely reasonable to discuss this here.  Perhaps there is some reason for bannig talk about this I am just not getting.

Speculating on certain behaviors among the children based on their upbringing is vastly different from speculating as to why someone molests children.

And.... because we said so. :)

Seriously, you cross a thin line when you start speculating the reasons behind why a person would molest their siblings. We don't know, and frankly I don't think most people really want to know. The less speculation overall -- as has been mentioned in mod notes before -- the better.

[BitterApple]

I'm sad to see the Seewald's support of Huckabee. Honestly, after seeing that, any hope of thinking the girls would leave is gone. They've drank the kool-aid and been brain washed for so long they have no idea how else to live. I'm really sad for them.

That was unfortunate. They would've been better off keeping quiet rather than supporting a narrative that excuses the actions of an abuser. Every time we think a set of in-laws is going to be the voice of reason, we're always disappointed. I don't know why we keep torturing ourselves, lol.

[autumnh]

To be a fly on the wall at the Duggar household....I cannot EVEN the mess that is going on there right now.

[Lillybee]

I really feel sorry for those girls not only were they molested but I believe that they were forced to apologize to Josh for defrauding him and then forgive him. They still had to live with their molester, cook is food, wash his clothes including his tidy whities and scrub his pee when they cleaned the bathrooms.

[LilyoftheValley]

To be a fly on the wall at the Duggar household....I cannot EVEN the mess that is going on there right now.

No one is talking about it openly.  Maybe the girls are texting each other.  

I really feel sorry for those girls not only were they molested but I believe that they were forced to apologize to Josh for defrauding him and then forgive him. They still had to live with their molester, cook is food, wash his clothes including his tidy whities and scrub his pee when they cleaned the bathrooms.

And he was smirking at them the entire time....

[LilyoftheValley]

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2015/05/anna-duggar-and-the-silencing-power-of-forgiveness.html

 

As I became a teenage young man I was constantly tempted to have lots of wrong thoughts, and often battled to keep my heart right. One of the greatest things that helped me in my struggles was my parent’s commitment to accountability. They were faithful to talk with each one of their children – if we were willing to share honestly & openly with them – to maintain a clear conscience. I learned quickly that great freedom can be achieved by accountability, and great accountability requires humility & openness. I often had failures in my early teenage years, but found I had a clear conscience only when I was willing to confess my thoughts and temptations quickly to God & my parents. (1 John 1:9) 

 

Here is something Josh said when he was courting Anna. Okay so if I had read this at the time, I would have just assumed that he felt some girls up from his church group, as that is certainly how it sounds.  This is what is so sick about the Duggar's beliefs.  It seems quite clear from this statement that Josh considers molesting his sister as she sleeps as the same level of wicked as having a consensual make out session with someone you're own age.  Both are just "temptations".  The male is tempted and the female is the one doing the tempting.  One of Josh's sisters was a bad girl who tempted him while she was sleeping.  

 

I dunno, that is the idea I am getting from what he said there.  Somewhere in that whole thing is the implication of an evil temptress.  If he said that publicly just a couple of years after the ordeal, then I cannot imagine how horrible his victims must have felt at that moment.   

[sadiegirl1999]

skippy, on 23 May 2015 - 4:13 PM, said:

    Can anyone tell me why my posts keep disappearing?

That happened to me yesterday. I think there is a glitch on the boards due to all the traffic.

 

 

I have a post that people have quoted, apparently, but when I click on the notification, it takes me back to page 1.

[hathorlive]

There's some interesting things being posted in the Guinn post about Huckabee.  She's got someone posting some pretty stinging comments about the confession Josh made in Church.  And the poster is calling Guinn out for not supporting the true victims.  Is it against the rules to post facebook captures? 

 

This is such a sad situation.  I have a masters in counseling but do not practice.  I have two close friends who are survivors and they've both had nightmares the past few nights.  I can only hope those girls get help some day.  I have no words for Josh.  He deserves the misery he's forced on others for his actions.  I don't have much sympathy for Anna.  She was probably never told the "truth" (if the Duggars even know what the word means) and she probably wrote that press statement with a crisis PR person beside her. I agree that she's trapped and has few options.  But again, this is what they've created. You have no education and a small army of kids.  She might want to consider if now is the time to stop breeding with this man, though she'll probably double down and be pregnant again by New years.

[JoanArc]

http://radaronline.com/celebrity-news/tamra-judge-speaks-out-supporting-josh-duggar/

 

 

Tamra Judge is speaking out in support of alleged child molester Josh Duggar, and fans are furious! The Real Housewives Of Orange County star posted on Facebook that she had “mixed emotions” about Josh Duggar, citing his age at the time of the alleged incident. “I don’t know the whole story and I know the press likes to blow things up,” she said in a comment. “My question is…did someone do this to him? Is he a victim as well? Just a thought…”

FU Tamra. I'd her to see 'the picture'.

[JenCarroll]

Over at http://www.tlc.com/, the Duggars are no longer featured on the home page. But I see something that makes me think TLC may dump the Duggars even if 19K&C is their top-rated show: The Willis Family. 

 

I'm watching the 1st episode of the Willis Family on Demand right now. Twelve kids, home schooled, living in a rustic looking house in the country in Tennessee. But OMG - none of the freak factor of the Duggars!! These people are outgoing, articulate, talented, loving, good-natured - and I think they are going to be TLC's next hot thing. I know this is just based on one episode, but so far? A breath of fresh air. 

 

I hope TLC dumps the Duggars for good. I bet a bunch of Duggar viewers will happily watch the Willises. The dedicated fundie leg humpers can always go see the Duggars at one of their many event appearances.

You know, I watched a couple of episodes too and they are, they really are talented, hard-working, and articulate -- and I was utterly bored. They lack that underlying "what the hell is wrong with these people" edge, and consequently I'm just not getting the "freak show" vibe that a lot of TLC programming seems to succeed with.

[Iguessnot]

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2015/05/anna-duggar-and-the-silencing-power-of-forgiveness.html

 

Here is something Josh said when he was courting Anna. Okay so if I had read this at the time, I would have just assumed that he felt some girls up from his church group, as that is certainly how it sounds.  This is what is so sick about the Duggar's beliefs.  It seems quite clear from this statement that Josh considers molesting his sister as she sleeps as the same level of wicked as having a consensual make out session with someone you're own age.  Both are just "temptations".  The male is tempted and the female is the one doing the tempting.  One of Josh's sisters was a bad girl who tempted him while she was sleeping.  

 

I dunno, that is the idea I am getting from what he said there.  Somewhere in that whole thing is the implication of an evil temptress.  If he said that publicly just a couple of years after the ordeal, then I cannot imagine how horrible his victims must have felt at that moment.   

Just because a male is tempted does not necessarily mean a female is a temptress. Hidden cameras and 2 way mirrors in bathrooms & bedrooms and barging in on sleeping females do not make the victims temptresses. I don't know what tempted Josh, but his outlet seems to have included his sisters.

 

 

I don't know why it took so long but it finally came to me why I am so against placing even the majority of the blame on JB, Michelle, or the kids' "sexually repressed" (or whatever you want to call it) upbringing.  I think their upbringing has been horrible and the "parents" did not do anywhere near enough to protect their daughters or other girls in their home, but I have to place the blame squarely on Josh.  Why?  Because otherwise I have to believe that all the other boys in that household who are/will be/have been raised the same way have also been raised to become incestuous child molesters, or that it's both expected and excused that they'll molest the girls. Please note I'm not speculating that other boys or girls are involved, just saying that I think there is something more wrong with Josh and how he treated his sisters beyond just his upbringing.

I doesn't make sense to claim his obscure home life was the sole cause of his molestation when molestation occurs even in our "normal" sexually open society.

Edited May 24, 2015 by Bella
misattributed quote, tried to fix

[Hpmec]

The Willis Family is very prominently featured on the TLC homepage. Have a feeling after attorneys are consulted and contracts reviewed, it's going to be bye bye Duggars, hello Willises. At this point the Duggars are probably hanging on by a thread with the network, not only because of Josh, but because of the way Michelle and Boob mishandled the situation, and the fact that 4 of the daughters were victims. TLC has put on some sketchy programming, but a family in which incest has occurred is just too much right now. Perhaps in a year they'll do an update special on Jill, Jessa, and Josiah (if his courtship hasn't imploded by then), but I think they'll want to lie low for now. Would be very surprised if they aired the next season given all the negative publicity.

Edited May 24, 2015 by Hpmec

[bluebonnet]

I wish TLC would be edgy and groundbreaking and feature, I don't know, a typical American family.   Or maybe a group of typical families.  Would love to see a mom screaming for the kids to hurry the hell up with brushing their teeth and panicking because she can't find her shoe for her very important meeting which she'll be late for because the carpool canceled and she has to sign a note from her daughter's teacher admonishing her for packing Oreo's in her lunch and she's wondering if just letting them walk to school will result in CPS being called.  I mean, I'd watch that.  

[3 is enough]

I am pretty sure that they were in the midst of filming the next season when all this went down.  Jessa posted a picture on instagram earlier this week with "Happy Birthday Ben" banners on the wall and there were cameras set up.  TLC scrapped the entire season of Honey Boo Boo it had already filmed, so they may do the same with the Duggars.

 

I can see Josh making the rounds of fundie churches giving his "testimony" and begging for love offerings.  But there is a finite number of these congregations, many of them may not want him, and the offerings will dry up pretty quickly, especially when he becomes old news.  He can't come back telling the same story every 6 months and hope to keep getting financed.  Pretty sure he will cave and do a tell-all book or an interview with the likes of Diane Sawyer.  But he can't wait too long because people are going to forget all about him when the next scandal comes along, especially if the show is permanently cancelled.  The public has a very short memory.

 

John Oliver is off this week.  Too bad. But then again the story broke on Thursday, which may have been too late to get a piece ready for Sunday night.

Edited May 24, 2015 by 3 is enough

[WalrusGirl]

What makes sense to me is that a lot of new people have infiltrated the family with the 2 new marriages and like you, I do think its very likely either Jill or Jessa did confide in their new in laws/family.

I think it's almost certainly someone from outside the family/in-laws. Neither Jill nor Jessa (nor JD with his police connections, as some have speculated) would have intentionally outed this to the media without all of the older girls being in agreement, and even in normal, non-fundie society, the odds of all five young woman being cool with putting that focus and speculation on themselves, even in order to bring down their abuser, are pretty low. And none of my close friends who were molested or raped at similar ages by adults close to their family ever told their in-laws. (Husbands, yes.) Not to say it never happens, but unless you're incredibly close to your SIL or MIL, and/or know they've gone through something similar, that's just not something most people - even in typical culture - really need their in-laws to know.

That said, I sincerely hope (and do tend to think) that both sets of in-laws will support their DILs, or however they want to handle this - in a cynical sense (since you never know with people), it's good that Jill already had a baby and Jessa's already pregnant, since their fundie-trending in-laws now have practical reasons to support the women mothering their grandchildren. (ICK to Guinn's Huckabee repost, though people screw up what's actually supportive in hard situations all.the.time.)

Here's where I'm torn about JB&M's actions - potentially criminally insufficient (my opinion) as it was, it's not at all unusual, or a direct result of their extremism. Doing nothing when one of the victims first told him in March 2002: entirely typical. Unfortunately that's what usually happens with intrafamily sexual abuse, even in normal families, even if the perpetrator is an adult and not also their own child. (Not believing the victim or just utterly failing via some combination of denial and being at a total loss.) When Josh admitted it to them in July 2002: merely punishing him is, well, more than what frequently happens. (!) In March 2003, when he confesses again: going to their church for advice, telling other families and anyone in law enforcement (even someone JB knew), and sending the minor perpetrator out of the house for several months and, again, punishing him at all - well, that's really quite a bit more than parents in intrafamily sexual abuse situations often do. As were their family set-ups and rules to protect the kids going forward, which always seemed either absurd (until three days ago) or indicative of a reaction to something like this. You'd be shocked at how many people you know and love would react in the same situation. It's heartbreaking.

I buy that deeply religious people sincerely believe they're doing the right thing when they follow their church leaders' advice that doesn't include official (legal or medical) channels; that doesn't mean it isn't legally neglectful or worse, and I'm glad DCFS investigated what they could (and I've seen references, in the long-ago leaks, to the family having to follow up regularly, which is the best the state could do with what they had and the timeline).

I don't even have a problem with JB seeking legal advice and lawyering his 16-17 (?) year old son up in mid-2006; everyone has a right to counsel, and he was a minor (a young one at the time of the events in question; old enough to know better and have it be terribly concerning, but young enough that parents wouldn't want their kid's life ruined for it if they believed it was over a few years ago) who shouldn't have to realize that himself. (I strongly suspect I'd have still made him go to the interview, possibly with counsel, as part of the overall effort to keep others safe, hold him accountable for his actions, and rehabilitate the offender, depending on what professionals in that area advised. But I'm certain the lawyers JB talked to advised him not to let investigators speak to Josh. That's legally a no brainer. What professionals in the rehabilitation field would recommend, I honestly don't know, and I have a masters in a related field but specialized in the opposite end of the age spectrum.)

I have big problems with how they handled this (after the first they knew in March 2002, that he was allowed in the house (vs Ben's future apartment + the kitchen at mealtimes and family room at Bible/family meeting times; nothing on the second floor), that horribly damaging sexual abuse "education" and their continued constant reference to females being responsible for stirring desire in males (could stay covered without telling the victims it was their fault every single time you said it), etc. But the reality is that, in most cases of family abuse, the victims either never feel comfortable or safe telling an adult, and the adults either don't believe them or do less in terms of punishment for the abuser and supporting the victim. As a society, we generally suck at sexual abuse, and it's notoriously bad in terms of victim support when the abuser is a close family member. I know decent people in real life who handled things in this area significantly worse. If anything good comes from this (going public years later by anyone but the victims, not the abuse itself - edited to clarify), I hope that the media gets past the details and incorporates professionals in the field discussing best practices, because that's hugely lacking background knowledge for so many generally decent people who massively fail - and often never get it.

All that said, I think there's decent odds that, while the older girls aren't close to Josh and don't fully trust or 100% forgive him, at least some of them moved on from this a long time ago (especially if it did stop for good back in mid-2003) and were in a comfortable place personally, coexisting with him, and with their parents. So I hate, for them, that this is public without it being their collective decision. We can't assume that all of them are in a bad place from it now, 12 years later, despite it (hopefully) being the worst event of their lives. (Daggers at Josh during that interview finale, when all of this was likely in the forefront of their minds, don't negate anyone's being fine overall. (There are people who've horribly wronged me (not in this way) who I'm generally fine and can get along with, but I'll snap right back at certain subjects that bring the offense up.)

We're newly outraged and horribly sad for them, but they figured out how to exist with the knowledge and their brother long ago and some are probably fine leaving well enough alone vs having real counseling at this late date. (I'm guessing others could benefit, but we can't assume all want or need it in 2015. They absolutely should have seen a secular-based therapist specializing in pediatric molestation victims in 2002/2003/2006. But let's not also forget that they lived in the rural Bible Belt with possibly no insurance at that time - and mental health coverage has always been lacking anyway - so even if the best effort had been put in, I think it's silly to assume they'd have had access to the counseling they should have had even if JB&M had tried. The best that might have come was a non-specialist telling them it wasn't their fault (huge) and having some extended contact with a mandatory reporter, both of which would have been incredibly valuable.) But the close friend of mine who never had counseling as a teenager has a healthy life and marriage now, and never had any interest in or need to go back to it as an adult. She'd already gotten to an ok place. (Not to say she may never want or need to - sometimes former victims are in a fine place as adults, after therapy or not, until they have children, or their children approach the age at which they were victimized. Then it can be triggering and there's some stuff to work through again. It's not a linear, one-and-done thing where if only you have counseling you'll land in an ok place and that's it.)

I wonder if this criminal history was part of JB's clear opposition to Josh taking a political job, in DC, that would raise his profile? The subsequent increased chance of this eventually coming to light? Even if the records had been officially sealed (which would have been the case had he been correctly charged at the time), sealed records aren't the same as destroyed records, and it sounds like an open secret in their community.

Virtual hugs and support to all who have shared and been through this personally.

Edited May 24, 2015 by WalrusGirl

[cmr2014]

 

You know, I watched a couple of episodes too and they are, they really are talented, hard-working, and articulate -- and I was utterly bored. They lack that underlying "what the hell is wrong with these people" edge, and consequently I'm just not getting the "freak show" vibe that a lot of TLC programming seems to succeed with.

ETA this quote. I wrote this in response to this post, and a half dozen posts appeared before I finished.

 

I'm glad I'm not the only one. I saw the first episode and thought that they were an attractive and articulate group. They are talented and magnetic and the love and affection between the family members radiates off the screen -- and I don't care. It may be a matter of familiarity; the Duggars have been floating around in the periphery of American life for a decade while the Willis family just appeared. I hope that's the case. If the Duggars could get rich off of TLC, the Willis family certainly should, too.

 

I was thinking about Huckabee's statement and I think that the issue revolves around whether you see Josh's actions as a sin or a crime. To Huckabee, I think that there are two issues: the first is a sort of "boys will be boys" thing and he considers that to be a family matter (Huckabee has frothing medieval views about women in general), the other is that Josh committed a "sin" which Huckabee would consider a church matter. A sin has to be confessed and remorse demonstrated, and then it is forgiven. While I think that for most of us on this board, this was a crime (as well as a sin) and is a civil matter as well.

 

It even crossed my mind that JB might have leaked the report (I don't think he did). My thought was that he was getting frustrated with Josh's growing independence, and decided to leak the report, humiliate Josh, and force him to come crawling back home. To him (I think) Josh committed a sin, not a crime, and that sin has been atoned for and forgiven.

Edited May 24, 2015 by cmr2014

[WalrusGirl]

Depending on how things settle (and provided there's no other shoe to drop), I do think that TLC will be able to get away with continuing the show, sans Josh and Anna, after the built-in (possibly extended) hiatus. (Or with Anna and the kids, if she were to leave and thus the money didn't benefit Josh, or down the line if they can show Anna and kids with the family and have their money go directly to a trust for their kids.) JB&M didn't handle it nearly well enough, but the general public will mostly remember the first version that came out, that JB turned Josh in himself, which...in a partial sense, he did report him to both their church and someone in law enforcement. It's an awful conundrum as parents to figure out how to do right for both victim and perpetrator minor children; the general viewing audience will sympathize and figure they did their best, since they aren't going to know about the f-ed up sexual abuse curriculum, realize the implications of the girls being blamed for stirring up desires, etc. (As is already obvious on social media, the devout fans support JB&M, not to mention Josh, and the first reports of this about JB turning Josh in were full of comments saying they "didn't even like the Duggars but good for JB.")

As it is, J&A aren't an ever-present part of a lot of the episodes - theirs normally focus heavily on their nuclear family, which makes sense when they have a separate TLC contract - and even if they move back to Arkansas, it's easy enough to exclude them from filming. Jill and Jessa have lifted right out of episodes since getting married (and having morning sickness), and viewers are used to Josh not being present with the brood at home.

I also wonder if eyes's stinkeye and disgusted almost snort at Anna saying "we're sticking with the Ms for now, we'll see about later [sic]" was because Jessa thinks Anna is a fool for having more kids with Josh, despite the gravy train about to end.

I was trying to remember exactly who said what during this (I'd already deleted it from my DVR when shit hit the fan) - if I'm remembering correctly, I think Anna was saying they didn't know for sure about the M theme, etc (which seems like BS by kid #4), and then Josh interjected that they probably would. Jessa's look of disgust at the M-theme was likely re Josh speaking rather than Anna and the M-names. (I was so perplexed about that when watching Tuesday night - regardless of what she thinks of name themes, she participated as an older teen in thinking of and voting on J names, and at baby #4 it sort of seems like J&A sticking with M names was already a given and that only the opposite would be a surprise. So her reaction to the name theme really threw me, since it made no sense. But I think Josh was the one who had just spoken, which...suddenly does make sense.

[Sew Sumi]

FWIW, Guinn Seewald deleted my FB posts supporting Jessa and her sisters. I really do not understand the mindset of these people who forgives the abuser, but neglects the abused? 

[hathorlive]

 

FWIW, Guinn Seewald deleted my FB posts supporting Jessa and her sisters. I really do not understand the mindset of these people who forgives the abuser, but neglects the abused?

 

 

She's been deleting comments all night.  People have been posting some pretty harsh (but deserved) memes, as well as comments supporting the girls.  Others are calling her out on supporting the abuser.  I'm shocked she's not aware of how to stop strangers from viewing her page.  Then again, I'm not shocked.  The Duggars don't usually hang around smart people.  Or people who know how to Google things.

[WalrusGirl]

(Backtracking, but this was saved while I was trying to get current before posting. Feel free to remove if not appropriate!)

Anyone in here a lawyer? How are they able to arrest priests decades after abuse but couldn't arrest Josh because the 3-year statute of limitation had passed? So confusing.

In a lot of cases/states (with varying statutes of limitation), they couldn't. But if I'm remembering correctly, the decades-long act of covering it up by reassigning perp priests, etc extended the clock in many other cases and countries. Some states (like Arkansas) extended their statutes of limitation in the subsequent years; in some cases, the new statute is applied retroactively (ie, if the statute is three years when you commit a crime but it's then extended, you can be prosecuted under the new extended statute even after the three year period that was law at the time of the offense passes), in others it isn't.

As someone else mentioned, generally the clock doesn't start for minor victims of sexual assault until they turn 18, or, as is relevant to the priests comparison, in the case of repressed memories the clock may start at the time the victim remembers.

Because this naturally follows some of the above: whether Arkansas' updated statute for sexual assault (which I think is currently until a minor victim turns 28/10 years after a minor victim turns 18?) was retroactive, I have no idea. But no charges could be brought without a victim's cooperation and testimony; Josh's confession to his family and church, as well as the destroyed 2006 report, are hearsay. They would need either a victim, witness, or Josh presently willing to report/confess (to police/prosecutors) what they actually saw or did firsthand. (Whether the imprisoned state trooper's testimony of Josh's confession to him, as law enforcement, is admissible I don't know. Josh was a minor without a lawyer, but a parent was present.)

I'm not trying to speculate here; I'm sure appropriate departments in Arkansas are under public pressure to figure these things out. But just to short-circuit the implications of Arkansas' updated statute of limitations as pertains to these individuals - even if it was a retroactive change, I don't see any of the Duggar victims cooperating at this time, and Josh's statement was surely vetted by a lawyer (to avoid an explicit confession) with those concerns in mind.

[RedheadZombie]

I want to say I'm really disgusted by the incompetent redacting of the police report.  Yes, they blacked out the names and even pronouns, but leaving in the victim's parents' names is just inexcusable.  It's just so unfair to the girls, and they should not be forced into commenting in any way - either to attack Josh or defend him.

 

 

Here's where I'm torn about JB&M's actions - potentially criminally insufficient (my opinion) as it was, it's not at all unusual, or a direct result of their extremism. Doing nothing when one of the victims first told him in March 2002: entirely typical. Unfortunately that's what usually happens with intrafamily sexual abuse, even in normal families, even if the perpetrator is an adult and not also their own child. (Not believing the victim or just utterly failing via some combination of denial and being at a total loss.) When Josh admitted it to them in July 2002: merely punishing him is, well, more than what frequently happens. (!) In March 2003, when he confesses again: going to their church for advice, telling other families and anyone in law enforcement (even someone JB knew), and sending the minor perpetrator out of the house for several months and, again, punishing him at all - well, that's really quite a bit more than parents in intrafamily sexual abuse situations often do. As were their family set-ups and rules to protect the kids going forward, which always seemed either absurd (until three days ago) or indicative of a reaction to something like this. You'd be shocked at how many people you know and love would react in the same situation. It's heartbreaking.

 

I agree with this.  I posted extensively (in Small Talk) about incidents in my family that were handled much worse.  There are very few parents who would turn their own child in.  I keep reading that the Duggars didn't react at all to this abuse.  I think they went crazy in over-reacting.  Think of all the years viewers have been saying - WTF, why are they so weird about breaking up Jackson and Hannie?  Why are they separating Joy from the Howlers?  Why are all the girls in a dorm room with shared bathroom.  Basically - why do the Duggars act like a brother/sister relationship is sexual.  I think all of this was their reaction to the abuse.  Didn't the older boys originally have buddies, too?  If so, I think that changed in response to all of this.  So the Duggars DID react, address it, and handle it.  Just not in a way most of us would handle it.  And certainly not in the manner safest for the girls, or even Josh.  I'm not defending Jim Bob's methods, but I do think there was genuine concern, and the desire to end the abuse.  I'm shocked that he initially allowed the police to interview the girls and Josh.  I don't anyone who wouldn't have hired an attorney first.

 

 

[KateUK]

I kept thinking about all this yesterday....yeah, I know, get a life....and all I could 'see' was Michelle's moon face beaming up at Jim Bob, them holding hands and praying to God, because sure as eggs God would steer them in the right direction and tell them what to do. I think this will be Anna's thinking as well.

 

I don't think they will take any responsibility for what has happened in the past, neither do I think that the girls involved in this sorry mess will be given priority in their thinking, they won't see the destruction they have caused and the far reaching ripples that will spread out and cause havoc.

 

Instead it will be all 'lets pray to God' ...yep brilliant idea, that way you off set your role in all this and firmly place it in Gods hands.

 

Jill and Jessa managed to escape by marrying, they at least have a chance of a normal life, well, normal for them, but the other older girls are imo, doomed, all of them including the married ones, are so brain washed, so indoctrinated by JB and Michelle that I personally don't think there is any hope for them.

 

Bit like the whipped puppy syndrome, they know no different and will keep 'going back' to those that use and abuse them, meaning keeping faith with the family not Josh.

 

The way JB and Michelle have kept all the kids apart from the world, with home schooling, getting the kids to 'snitch' on each other etc has worked, they must know that now the s**t has hit the fan, that not one of them will speak out against them.

 

 

 

Edited May 24, 2015 by KateUK

[Lillybee]

Are we allowed to wonder how awful this situation would have been if Jill (as it has been suggested) didn't snitch.

[Sew Sumi]

Jessica Seewald also came out in defense of the abuser, now Pa Seewald posts this:

 

http://seewalds.com/grace-greater-than-our-sin/

 

If Josh was a non-Christian minority, I imagine they'd be screaming to string him up. 

[bluebonnet]

And the fundies continue to make me feel sick.  At least Seewald acknowledged the victims, which is much more than I ever expected one of these despicable people would do.  His next blog post ought to be how he stands in solidarity with the LGBT community, because judging them is putting him in the position of his friend, god.  

[cereality]

I haven't followed what the Seewalds, Dillards, Jessa or Jill have said -- so if anyone could post, that would be great.

 

So Mike Seewald really thinks it's people who were eagerly awaiting the Duggar family's fall that are the cause of this?? How about the teenager who molested his sisters? And I love how he had to mention that this didn't happen bc Josh was repressed. After all if you're not repressed -- "Fan the flames of youthful lust and you end up with what we have: unprecedented numbers of unwed mothers, millions of abortions, rampant STDs, and the unraveling of the fabric of our whole society." I get it unwed mothers, abortions, and STDs are bad -- and yet somehow I consider than more positive than a brother touching a sister. I'd much rather that a guy get a girl pregnant and walk away -- leaving her either a single mom or with an abortion -- bc at least it's likely that when sex occurred (i) it wasn't between siblings; and (ii) it was consensual. Is it me or does Mike refuse to acknowledge the nastiness of this between brother and sisters??

[becca3891]

I tried to post this earlier but I don't see it so I'm reposting. I think getting lost in the shuffle for so many of the fans who have no idea who Gothard is, is that the girls were quite probably told horrible things about how they caused and contributed to what Josh did. Gothard teaches that molesting is usually caused by defrauding by immodest dress, but no matter what, if you didn't cry out so you could be heard, it then becomes your fault. That makes me angry, sad and frustrated. People don't realize this runs far deeper than just the horrible fact that it happened. It's that these monsters, JB and Michelle, still stand by an organization that preaches such damaging garbage. They were just at the ATI conference weeks ago. This link is very informative with its actual images from a IBLP workbook.

 

http://www.recoveringgrace.org/2014/04/there-is-no-victim-a-survey-of-iblp-literature-on-sexual-assault-and-abuse/

[bluebonnet]

I tried to post this earlier but I don't see it so I'm reposting. I think getting lost in the shuffle for so many of the fans who have no idea who Gothard is, is that the girls were quite probably told horrible things about how they caused and contributed to what Josh did. Gothard teaches that molesting is usually caused by defrauding by immodest dress, but no matter what, if you didn't cry out so you could be heard, it then becomes your fault. That makes me angry, sad and frustrated. People don't realize this runs far deeper than just the horrible fact that it happened. It's that these monsters, JB and Michelle, still stand by an organization that preaches such damaging garbage. They were just at the ATI conference weeks ago. This link is very informative with its actual images from a IBLP workbook.

 

http://www.recoveringgrace.org/2014/04/there-is-no-victim-a-survey-of-iblp-literature-on-sexual-assault-and-abuse/

Just an FYI because I've seen you post it a couple of times, it's showed up and it's been posted throughout the thread many times.  Not that it's a problem, I think people should be aware of what sort of stuff this cult teaches.  Just wanted to let you know that your posts are showing up.  

[WalrusGirl]

More appropriate in the Banessa thread, but the in-laws' reactions/potential support has been much more discussed here...

[...]now Pa Seewald posts this:

http://seewalds.com/grace-greater-than-our-sin/

If Josh was a non-Christian minority, I imagine they'd be screaming to string him up.

Agreed. In light of Guinn's commentless repost of Huckabee's statement, though, I found this part of Pa Seewald's post incredibly reassuring for Jessa (since they're more fundie than Jill's in-laws and how Derick was raised) - emphasis mine:

Speak Up!

Finally, a word to the millions of muted victims of sexual abuse all over the world. It is not your fault. No matter what the abuser may have said, you are not the one to blame. Do not keep silent if you are being abused, tell someone you trust, a parent, a teacher, a friend, anyone is better than silence. You are likely not the only one who has been abused. Tell someone so that they will be stopped. If the person you tell doesn’t contact the right people to help, tell someone else. Stay away from the abuser if at all possible, or avoid being alone with them. If the abuser is in your family, you may feel conflicted. You may love this person and can’t understand why they are hurting you. No matter how much you love the abuser you must tell someone. Remember, it is never okay for someone to treat you that way even if they are a parent, a sibling, or a friend. There are many people who will help you if you just break the silence.

To me this says that Ben and Pa Seewald don't see the victims as being to blame. I think we were surer of where Cathy and her husband would fall, so I actually found his comments to be a relief. (I hardly expected him to disown Josh or not spout forgiveness/repentance/sin, but he was honestly a little harder on Josh in places than I'd anticipated. Just a relief to have a good feel on their family's religious positions re the victims, because re the victims that's as good as it was going to get.)

Is it me or does Mike refuse to acknowledge the nastiness of this between brother and sisters??

I'm glad he didn't go there at all, in terms of his DIL's probable position. Focusing on sibling incest just adds stigma to the victims. Edited May 24, 2015 by WalrusGirl

[cmr2014]

 

So Mike Seewald really thinks it's people who were eagerly awaiting the Duggar family's fall that are the cause of this?? How about the teenager who molested his sisters? And I love how he had to mention that this didn't happen bc Josh was repressed. After all if you're not repressed -- "Fan the flames of youthful lust and you end up with what we have: unprecedented numbers of unwed mothers, millions of abortions, rampant STDs, and the unraveling of the fabric of our whole society."

 

I think that the Seewalds (and Mike Hickabee) would have been well advised to sit on this for a couple of days before responding. A simple anodyne "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone," would have been supportive of the family without forcing them to defend a child molester.

[becca3891]

 

And Josh was reading a book to the kids while the older ones and parents were out to dinner? (about a raccoon or something - not Jesus)  I was very surprised. Especially the types of books mentioned.

I just did a little digging and found the book series, called Adam Raccoon. They're Christian books teaching about character, and King Aren the lion is the Jesus figure. So that makes sense.

http://www.themoorings.org/perspectives/literature/reviews/keane.html

 

Just an FYI because I've seen you post it a couple of times, it's showed up and it's been posted throughout the thread many times.  Not that it's a problem, I think people should be aware of what sort of stuff this cult teaches.  Just wanted to let you know that your posts are showing up.

 

Thank you! I don't want to repeat myself but for some reason it wasn't showing on my phone; I guess that was my phone's fault.

Edited May 24, 2015 by becca3891