Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[JennyMominFL]

 

 

 

I think that JennyMominFL's point is that Josh's criminal abuse of his sisters was most likely driven more by opportunity than pedophilia the way some people have asserted. 

Opportunity may have been a better word choice yes. But I come from a law enforcement  family, and I have heard them use the statement that the" victim was convenient". Meaning the perp had access and opportunity with someone, and that person wasn't neccessarily targeted specifically.

Edited May 22, 2015 by JennyMominFL

[galax-arena]

If he were able to re-frame this narrative from one where he is an abuser, to one where he was abused, he might be able to ride this out.

I hate it when abusers try to minimize their actions by saying that they were abused too. It just furthers the idea that most abuse victims will continue the cycle because they're irreparably fucked up. And sure, while a lot of abusers were abused as children, there are a lot more victims out there who don't grow up to be abusers. But thanks to this persistent stereotype, many of them are afraid that they will be. That can really screw with your head. 

Edited May 22, 2015 by galax-arena

[bluebonnet]

Josh molested EVERY female relative in that house that wasn't his mother, at the time (right? I looked at brithdates). If that doesn't get the show canceled, I will lose all faith in humanity.

 

It doesn't really matter WTF TLC wants to do, when sponsors drop left and right, which they will if the show stays, it's game over. There will definitely be sponsor boycotts if this travesty goes on.

I'm really shocked that sponsors haven't already started dropping or at least making some sort of statements.  

[Lillybee]

I hate Nancy Grace but I would love to see her run with this story.  She would rip Joshua and his parents to shreds.

Edited May 22, 2015 by Lillybee

[Wellfleet]

Which really irritates me because Josh and Anna Duggar on their own are the top 5%, depending on what economic measurements one is using.  In some cases, they are even the 1%.  People like this almost always have at least some sort of passive income coming in.  I'm willing to bet the the FRC quietly offered an excellent severance package for resigning so quickly, and I wouldn't be surprised to discover that some campaign office or another figured out a way to kick back incentives to the family if they keep their mouth shut wrt politics for this coming election cycle.  They also have the sale of all those dvds and I guess residuals that will continue to flow in even after the show is canceled and of course the christian and fundie circles are likely going to keep paying him for speaking engagments.  These people are going to be perfectly fine financially for the foreseeable future.  

 

100% agree.

 

Dear Leghumpers - for once in your lives, listen up! Save your money. I guarantee that you need it much more than Josh Duggar. His father is a millionaire several times over, and he wants to run Josh's life anyway. Let him foot all of Josh's bills until he's earning for himself again.

[VioletNevermind]

Now. I'm not a parent...but is it normal or usual to let a 14 year old boy have apparently long stretches of unsupervised access to a bunch of his younger sisters?

I grew up with an older brother. We spent quite a lot of time together and had a lot of fun. Our home life wasn't idyllic (no one's is), but there was never any threat of molestation. I can only speak for myself, but it might have had something to do with the lack of extreme sexual oppression, not being forced to track my mom's menstrual/sex schedule, and not having to watch my parents humping and "hey, hey, hey-ing" at every turn with no outlet for my own raging hormones.

(Edited to add that of course I don't excuse one bit of what Josh did. I don't want anyone to think that I do without seeing the rest of my posts. I feel zero sympathy for Josh.)

Edited May 22, 2015 by SuzyLee

[shannon612]

Esp since they cancelled Honey Boo Boo for the exact same thing

I feel like they will probably air next season since they already have it done..and then thatll be that

[TheFinalRose]

I have no sympathy for the fact that Josh was fourteen. That is old enough to know right from wrong, and there are plenty of fourteen year old boys who deal with their hormones without approaching their little sisters.  And there are plenty of fourteen year old boys who are not comfortable with girls, or who are shy and don't have other outlets for their raging hormones, who still do not approach their little sisters once, much less repeatedly. 

 

I am not a fan of JimBob and Michelle for so many reasons.  However, I find this fall from grace to be almost Biblical.  I long suspected they would have some kind of comeuppance, although I predicted they'd have a gay kid and have to learn to accept him/her. I never would have dreamt up this doozy. 

[Rhondinella]

On this week's episode where we went behind the scenes with the crew, Jim Bob stated how at first he wasn't sure he could trust the crew around his children.  Ironic, isn't it, how the danger was a lot closer?

 

Josh said that he realized that if he continued on this road, he would ruin his life.  What about the lives YOU ruined?  It can all be swept under the rug, but the girls are still suffering, I can assure you.  Not something you ever get over.  I have 3 sisters, and we were all touched or fondled or shown porn or had naked pics taken of us by a close male relative.  He also delighted in exposing himself to us every chance he got.  Well, now we are all late 50's to mid 60's and we only very recently all talked about it, and cried alot.  Our hurt is very real, and although we went on to all have happy marriages and successful careers, the pain is still there, as are the secrets.  None of us have ever told our husbands about it.  Why are we ashamed?  We were very young girls and did nothing wrong.  Back then you didn't talk about it to anyone, and our mom never would have believed us anyway.  My point is, these girls won't just get over it.  You can't pray this away.

 

I know Josh was very young, but at 14 you still know right from wrong.  Yet he has parents who love to talk about their sex lives and behave inappropriately in front of impressionable kids.  Jim Bob is such a horn dog, and Josh was curious.  Modesty my ass!  Nobody needs to know Michelle's menstrual cycle or whether or not they are "trying" for another child.  And I sure never needed to see those 2 dry humping in front of their kids.  Or showing how to kiss. EXTREMELY CREEPY!

 

So to some extent, I feel bad for Josh, but just a teeny bit.  And if Anna and her parents knew about this, why on earth would they let her marry this guy?  I fear for their little girls.  I've never heard of perverts who stop because God doesn't want them to do that.  There is always the chance that he will slip up again, if he hasn't already.  No wonder they were so anxious to marry him off!

 

Makes me sick that the Duggars who are so righteous and holy and better than everybody else have covered this up all these years.   I hope their show is cancelled immediately.

 

As I said a few pages ago, I myself am an adult survivor of sexual abuse as a child, so I completely resonate with what you're saying about the emotional consequences that never really leave you, as well as the negative ways this treatment ends up affecting and changing (literally) your brain.  However, I do have to stand up and say that I don't think we should say that something like this "ruins your life."  I know I've had a very full and happy life in the years after my abuse, especially once I got out of the house and got married to a wonderful, understanding and supportive man (who I told about the abuse very early in our relationship).  Were there consequences to what happened to me that I still sometimes struggle with?  Yes, of course.  But it didn't ruin my life.  I wouldn't let it.  If it had, my abuser would win.

 

I sometimes worry that in our culture in our perfectly understandable and laudable attempt to vehemently express how damaging sexual abuse can be that we end up painting every victim as forever emotionally crippled.  Are some? Yes.  Does every victim reap some negative consequences as a result? Absolutely.  But I wish we would focus more on the fact that most of these brave women manage to go on with their lives and overcome these obstacles to become successful, happy people with fulfilling and productive lives.  They are not forever defined by what happened to them. In a misguided attempt to defend and support them I fear we end up perpetually victimizing them.

 

I'm hoping these girls will know happy lives outside of that house and away from those awful people who raised them, although they are in a very different situation and environment than I was, and don't have as many options in terms of getting away from it.  I think if anything "ruins" their lives it will more likely be because of the consequences of the way they were raised rather than the abuse itself.

 

(Note: Not critiquing you or anything you said, smalltownmom .  And I'm so sorry to hear that it took so long for you to feel able to talk to anyone about it.  I completely understand that.  It was the hardest thing I've ever done.  But just remember, as my counselor said to me, it's not YOUR shame.)

[JennyMominFL]

Yeah, I confess , I always wanted to see the parents fall. Not the kids. I've really developed affection for them over the years. I would never have wante it to be lick this. The repercussions this will still have on the kids, even now are devastating.

I just know, with the way the girls have been brought up, that they will somehow blame themselves for this. Victims of molestation already do this, without the double whammy of the society the Duggers live in. Hopefully Jill and Jessa's husbands will help them. I can't even imagine how they feel.

[JenCarroll]

 They show no compassion for members of the LBGT community and, while I agree with the sentiment of the people who have made the analogy here that Josh will now understand what they feel, I have to disagree. LBGT people are regular people, and our fellow citizens, who are seeking to be treated the same as everyone else. Josh engaged in immoral, probably criminal behavior. There really is no analogy.

 

Thank you for making this point. It's been bugging the shit out of me all day.

[JennyMominFL]

Do we have any theories on who  tipped off intouch. Or just who got the ball rolling this time?

Edited May 22, 2015 by JennyMominFL

[leighroda]

I feel terrible, with Josh always being so pious in his attitude I kinda always wanted something to take him down a few notches... But this reaches far beyond him and has a huge impact on completely innocent victims.

I know in the past on these threads I made comments about how crazy some of their rules are in implying there was a potential for sexual attraction among the siblings, but now seeing that wasn't so much preventative as it was damage control, I just feel sick for snarking about it.

There was something I always wondered about in one of the early specials the older boys had buddies, but then at some point the older girls were the buddy group leaders, now I can't help but wonder if it has anything to do with this.

I don't want to speculate among the girls who was the victim but now thinking about it jill has seemed to have kept her distance... So whether she was a victim and/or whistle blower would make sense. Like how we had a whole episode about Josh meeting Ben, but virtually no interaction with Derek, I actually noticed that before but just chocked it up to differences in filming schedules etc. ( I know we are trying to stay away from speculation, so if anything I said crosses that line I will gladly remove it, I'm just making some realizations and kinda thinking out loud)

[NikSac]

If Child Services does investigate the Duggars, it might be the best thing for Josie.  

 

I would love to know what happened with this back in 2006. According to the police report the detective did file an affidavit for "Family In Needs of Services," which is a program within the Division of Children and Family Services. Of course for privacy reasons they'll never release anything about this, but I wonder if that affidavit got faxed like it was supposed to?  Was a case opened?

[cereality]

Maybe it's just me (I haven't read every single post), but I DON'T blame JB and Michelle for the fact that this happened. I blame them 100% for the aftermath -- not reporting it for 3-4 yrs until forced; not sending Josh to counseling and instead just letting him go to some mentor in the remodeling business; forcing Jana, Jill, Jessa, Jinger to be around him -- like that trip to Florida before the wedding, going to DC to watch his kids etc.

 

But I am not buying the -- what do you expected he was a sexually repressed male who couldn't hug a girl -- theory. I'm sorry but what 14 yr old boy isn't sexually repressed? They all want it all the time, and most cannot get any. Yet the vast vast majority seem to realize that shoving their hands up their sister's skirt or squeezing her boobs is NOT an option. Instead most learn to jerk off as much as they need to. As for those saying -- oh that isn't allowed and he had no one to teach him. Give me a break. How exactly would JB and Michelle have known if he jerked it off in the shower or in bed and didn't say anything?? And that sort of activity isn't taught or discussed even with guy friends -- guys just sort of discover what feels good and keep doing it. And again -- the vast vast majority realize that touching a sister is never an option. Certainly he had to realize that jerking off was a lesser evil than molesting a sibling.

 

If I was Ben and Derick right now, I would -- (i) deck Josh -- if he has made an appearance in Arkansas yet; and (ii) start packing up my $hit and move my wife out of JB's house and tell JB and Michelle you'll see them at Christmas. I would distance myself from JB and take NOTHING from him in an effort to get my wife away from the house of horrors and the "remember we forgave Josh and we women have to be careful not to entice the men, let's pray" BS that is guaranteed happening right now. The wives need to "recover" and it'll only happen if they don't continuously have to keep forgiving Josh and hearing JB and Michelle's "excuses" for how these things happen bc we're all imperfect. Derick is an entry level accountant -- he can most certainly afford rent on an apartment or townhouse for him, Jill, and Iz. Ben -- he honestly needs to head back up to Hot Springs or frankly anywhere that he can find any kind of job with his AA degree -- be it Tulsa or Charlotte or wherever -- and he and Jessa need to set up house and live on his salary and create their own life where they are self supporting.

[bluebonnet]

So wait, when did the Duggars start being filmed for tv?  I think there is a lot of interest in trying to understand how damaging (or not) a reality tv camera crew constantly in the home can be for children.  Basically, as long as the crew is there, or they are preparing for the crew to be there, the children are technically working or preparing to work.  I wonder if TLC's slowness in canceling the series or making a statement might be because they realize that they came into the family's life right when these things just started happening.  Could they possibly fear the backlash of being blamed for creating this situation or even for failing to acknowledge something was off?  

Edited May 22, 2015 by bluebonnet

[JenCarroll]

Now. I'm not a parent...but is it normal or usual to let a 14 year old boy have apparently long stretches of unsupervised access to a bunch of his younger sisters?

You know, it's interesting you say that. I have three male cousins all from 12 to 15 years older than me, and I have one sister 4 years older. My grandmother once expressed concern about the boys being left alone with us, and everyone said she was crazy, nothing "like that" would ever happen in our family. Ironically it was my sister who was abusing me (physically, not sexually) and when the boys were around was the only time I ever felt safe. I'm not sure you can decide these things just based on age and sex.

[cereality]

Also -- how old was Josh when he started courting Anna? Is Anna lying when she says in her statement that he confessed to her and her parents at the start of the courtship? He specifically told them -- I touched my sisters many times?? Or he confessed along the lines of -- I'm weak, I was imperfect but I prayed and now I'm on the right path!? Bc if a potential son in law in an arranged marriage tells the future inlaws -- we need to chat -- just 4 yrs ago, I have touched my sisters' breasts and vaginas but I've prayed it away -- in what freaking universe is that not a deal breaker? I mean what would he have had to say to get Pa Keller to reconsider handing his daughter over -- um, I murdered someone?? But then Pa Keller sets off the creepy meter like no other, so who knows. Maybe Ma an Pa Keller sat Anna down and said -- look lots of people have these flaws, just like your daddy did -- it doesn't make them unmarriable, instead it'll be your duty as a wife to fix him AND he's a Duggar with money so ain't no way you're turning him down . . . .

[JenCarroll]

Well yeah, I'm pretty sure that's what they said to Priscilla about TFDW and that other little issue... Not conflating being gay with being a child molester in any way, but they do. They're basically the same thing to these sicko's. Maybe the Kellers feel their daughters have a mission to keep "good Christian men" on the straight and narrow. Who the hell knows with these people?

Edited May 22, 2015 by JenCarroll

[cheatincheetos]

The house is in terrible condition and needs much work. Josh overestimated how much time he had to leave the FRC.

When does everyone think TLC will make an announcement? Tomorrow or on Tuesday after the holiday?

If it's like the political world, they would prefer to release unpleasant news on late Friday afternoon. The "Friday news dump".

If you want to be disgusted, have a quick look at the 19 Kids Facebook page. Their sycophants are urging people to support the Duggars no matter what. I voiced my views and was promptly attacked for my heresy. I fear for the children of many, many families tonight if this is considered acceptable. TLC is posting light, frothy pictures, studiously ignoring the kerfuffle . . . for now. Even as we speak, the show is airing on TV.

TLC also hasn't yet changed their background pic on their Facebook page that includes the Duggars along with their other reality families.

[SometimesBites]

When TLC came a'knockin, Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar should have said, gosh, thanks but no thanks--knowing they were NOT the sparkly parental know-everythings that such a show set them up to be.

 

They herd the children into common sleeping dormitories to help prevent FURTHER incidents of sibling molestation. The girls are so traumatized by their older brother's incestuous interference that they put a letter in a book, begging for someone outside the family to save them! (Would JB or M care to comment on why their daughters didn't come to THEM for help???) The parents refer to their own sexual relationship relentlessly, while constructing absolutely bizarre fences around the sexual development of their children. NONE OF THIS IS NORMAL. SHAME ON TLC FOR EXPLOITING THE WEIRDEST OF THE WEIRD AND FUNDING THE CREEPIEST FRINGE NUTCASES OUT THERE. And those people howling on the web about how mean it is to "dig up" this issue to smear poor little Josh? Well, darlins, imagine it was YOUR DAUGHTER.

[cereality]

Went back and read some of the posts and I really think that too much is being made of how "sexually repressed" he was and poor Duggars they can have no contact with the opposite sex. I know the Duggars think they invented the rules re lack of pre marital contact with the opposite sex -- but there are many other cultures where it's common including in the U.S. Think Orthodox Jews, orthodox Muslims, and certain Eastern cultures. There are no boyfriends or girlfriends, handing holding, kissing, hugging -- even after a marriage is pretty much arranged for you. I know families from each of these religions and cultures where the first opposite sex contact has been on the wedding night -- NOT EVEN holding hands or a kiss during the wedding/wedding day. And yet somehow those grooms managed not to fondle anyone through there teen years and often into their 20s. I think it's "excusing" Josh to say -- oh he did this bc he was so repressed and he was just a curious 14 yr old. I'm sure people in those cultures are curious too -- they just know where the lines are. And if they really can't handle the curiosity and make it all the way to marriage -- fine -- they find a way to sneak porn or Playboys or a consensual "you show me yours I'll show you mine" or even a consensual "friends w benefits" situation -- they don't feel up their sisters and cousins.

[Crazycatlady]

I think this assumption does a disservice to abuse victims, many of whom do not fit the stereotypical mold of how we think victims behave and react.

Agreed. I was date raped last year and I'm the person who always thought I'd punch someone in the balls if they tried doing that to me. Here I am a year later and this fucker is still messing up my life (trying to get into a new college). The most I've done is flip him off.

[bluebonnet]

Went back and read some of the posts and I really think that too much is being made of how "sexually repressed" he was and poor Duggars they can have no contact with the opposite sex. I know the Duggars think they invented the rules re lack of pre marital contact with the opposite sex -- but there are many other cultures where it's common including in the U.S. Think Orthodox Jews, orthodox Muslims, and certain Eastern cultures. There are no boyfriends or girlfriends, handing holding, kissing, hugging -- even after a marriage is pretty much arranged for you. I know families from each of these religions and cultures where the first opposite sex contact has been on the wedding night -- NOT EVEN holding hands or a kiss during the wedding/wedding day. And yet somehow those grooms managed not to fondle anyone through there teen years and often into their 20s. I think it's "excusing" Josh to say -- oh he did this bc he was so repressed and he was just a curious 14 yr old. I'm sure people in those cultures are curious too -- they just know where the lines are. And if they really can't handle the curiosity and make it all the way to marriage -- fine -- they find a way to sneak porn or Playboys or a consensual "you show me yours I'll show you mine" or even a consensual "friends w benefits" situation -- they don't feel up their sisters and cousins.

I agree.  To me, the most problematic and inherently abusive part of this lifestyle is that it's a closed society in that the children are forbidden or greatly discouraged from interacting with those outside their own circle, personal responsibility is disregarded because god and stuff, and women and girls are disenfranchised.  Couple all of this with a very poor education that focuses on a literal interpretation of the bible, and it's a recipe for disaster.  Victims in this situation don't have an outlet because their philosophy revolves around women being in charge of male sexuality.  Perpetrators aren't receiving the punishment and/or treatment they deserve because their philosophy ignores personal responsibility so long as a request for jesus love/forgiveness is made.  The poor education is like a brainwash that makes them all think that this is how it's all supposed to be.  

 

Might Josh have still done this if they were a typical family who just happened to have a phobia of birth control?  Maybe.  But at least in a typical family the victims have a better chance at receiving treatment and justice and the perpetrator is more likely to be removed from the environment.  

[cereality]

So what happens now -- do we think Josh is up late tonight packing up the house so they can move back to Arkansas over the long weekend? Or do we think they can financially ride it out in DC for a while?

 

Isn't he now pretty much relegated to a car lot or some other "property management" gig that JB can create for him? I mean even if he can get an interview in say Tucson in some back office white collar job -- which is hard enough without a HS degree -- what employer doesn't do a background check or at least a google search before extending an offer? His name is all over the internet and even if some employer thinks it's 100% false, why would they take a chance -- given that there are so many qualified but unemployed people with perfectly clean records.

 

Does this mean Anna pretty much has to have a home birth now? I mean COBRA or Obamacare for a 5 person family -- at any level of coverage that'll cover maternity -- has got to be really pricey.

 

For everyone who is saying Anna should leave -- I get it, but what do you propose she does for money? With 3 kids and another on the way, parents who live in a trailer and likely aren't able to provide her lodging for her and her 3 kids for any extended period of time, and no higher education or work experience -- what is her option besides staying with Josh and saying the expected lines re how she's praying about it and forgives him?? Doesn't she have a sibling who left the fundie fold? I wonder if she can call that sibling and at least have some place to go to for a while and an opportunity to talk with someone who many not believe in the whole headship concept. I mean I'm sure she could go stay with her parents for a short time, but likely they'll just "re program" her to return to Josh with the whole -- people are imperfect, let's pray -- thing.

[doodlebug]

Went back and read some of the posts and I really think that too much is being made of how "sexually repressed" he was and poor Duggars they can have no contact with the opposite sex.

 

Amen!  Maybe I am out of the loop, but I was a 14 year old girl once upon a time and I wasn't allowing boys to grope me back in the day, nor did I know any boys who would've tried (they might've thought about it, but they knew it was wrong and didn't do it, sister or not).  While times have changed, I doubt that most 14 year old boys are getting much action these days either.  I think most kids are raised to know right from wrong and that touching anyone without their consent is wrong.  Just because Josh' parents set up a bunch of silly rules about fraternizing with the opposite sex doesn't mean he didn't know it was wrong.  There are plenty of outlets for teen boys and they existed long before Playboy or internet porn.  Over the centuries, most young men have matured in situations where the only nearby females were related to them, and yet, they didn't resort to molesting their sisters while they slept. Certainly the atmosphere in his home, where Josh was taught that, as a man, he was in charge of all females and that any sexual temptation was the fault of the woman, might have helped him justify his actions and allow him to blithely ignore his sisters' feelings in all of this; but his situation as a young teen was really not that extraordinary from an historical perspective as well as from a religious one.  His actions were still far outside the realm of acceptable behavior by any standards.

Edited May 22, 2015 by doodlebug

[cereality]

Josh Duggar is trending on Twitter at 2 AM (est). This isn't going away quickly. Have Josh and Anna escaped DC or will they have paparazzi outside their house in the morning?

[Lillybee]

I think that the girls were blamed for defrauding Joshua even four year old JoyAnna ( I think this is why Mullet was so freaked out about Josie's uncovered shoulders at Jill's wedding). In Gothard land it is almost always the fault of the females for their molestation. I think that this is why Jinger thinks that she was sinful, she was blamed for whatever Josh did to her. The oldest daughters really need counseling and not the JTTH crap.

[Darknight]

The leghumpers defending the Duggars by saying that "at least their kids aren't drinking, smoking, or pregnant." Then when one of their children is revealed to have done something unequivocally BAD, they excuse it by saying, "He was just a teenager. Go easy on him. It's normal." NO, molesting multiple siblings is not normal teen behavior.

[Patricia07]

Radar Online had photos and a video of Josh and family at the airport in Washington D.C. earlier Thursday.  He wouldn't make a comment.  I don't know where they were headed, but they were leaving town.

[bluebonnet]

So what happens now -- do we think Josh is up late tonight packing up the house so they can move back to Arkansas over the long weekend? Or do we think they can financially ride it out in DC for a while?

 

Isn't he now pretty much relegated to a car lot or some other "property management" gig that JB can create for him? I mean even if he can get an interview in say Tucson in some back office white collar job -- which is hard enough without a HS degree -- what employer doesn't do a background check or at least a google search before extending an offer? His name is all over the internet and even if some employer thinks it's 100% false, why would they take a chance -- given that there are so many qualified but unemployed people with perfectly clean records.

 

Does this mean Anna pretty much has to have a home birth now? I mean COBRA or Obamacare for a 5 person family -- at any level of coverage that'll cover maternity -- has got to be really pricey.

 

I commented on this earlier so I'll just quote myself.  

 

Which really irritates me because Josh and Anna Duggar on their own are the top 5%, depending on what economic measurements one is using.  In some cases, they are even the 1%.  People like this almost always have at least some sort of passive income coming in.  I'm willing to bet the the FRC quietly offered an excellent severance package for resigning so quickly, and I wouldn't be surprised to discover that some campaign office or another figured out a way to kick back incentives to the family if they keep their mouth shut wrt politics for this coming election cycle.  They also have the sale of all those dvds and I guess residuals that will continue to flow in even after the show is canceled and of course the christian and fundie circles are likely going to keep paying him for speaking engagments.  These people are going to be perfectly fine financially for the foreseeable future.

 

Josh and Anna really are going to be financially fine, assuming there isn't some catastrophic thing that happens tomorrow or something.  I really wouldn't be surprised if Josh has retained at least his health coverage for a period of time as part of his severance package (no way he didn't get one).  And yeah, if worst comes to worst, Josh can just get a job like everyone else.  But really, these people are wealthy and are likely to remain fairly wealthy for at least a while.  

[cereality]

Can you imagine what the Dillards, Seewalds, and Martinez's are thinking tonight? I'm sure Cathy is thinking -- I knew he shouldn't have married into that nut house, I always had a bad feeling about them. The Seewalds -- I think pushed Ben a bit into marriage with a Duggar star as they thought about the life it would allow their son to have; they may have some regret too. I'm guessing Marjorie's parents are thinking about how to convince her not to marry Josiah or at least turn this courtship into a normal, VERY slow dating situation where she can learn whatever secrets she needs to know that'll never come out in the presence of an 8 yr old chaperone.

 

If any Duggar wants to or has considered escaping -- I'm thinking Jana, Jinger, Joy, Josiah or the twins -- wouldn't the next few weeks be the perfect time? I'm thinking JB and Michelle will attempt a bit of a press tour -- if anyone will have them -- or at least try to get a lot of media exposure to "clarify" what happened. I expect JB will expect the older ones to say -- all is forgiven, no worries. Isn't this the perfect time to say -- sorry pops, I can't do that; you either give me $50,000 and a plane ticket and I will quietly disappear to another city for a job in a coffee shop or any place that will hire me and start building my own life OR I will go to the media and specifically tell what happened and what life is REALLY like in this house, your choice?! Wouldn't that allow that group to escape with a decent sum of money in hand -- enough to rent a home together, get jobs, each kid uses said job to build up savings or use job money to go to college/trade school, date, make friends, and live normally and without any sense of fear??

[Jaded]

Agreed. I was date raped last year and I'm the person who always thought I'd punch someone in the balls if they tried doing that to me. Here I am a year later and this fucker is still messing up my life (trying to get into a new college). The most I've done is flip him off.

I'm so sorry. I hope by the time school starts again you make it into a new school.

[Wellfleet]

Can you imagine what the Dillards, Seewalds, and Martinez's are thinking tonight? I'm sure Cathy is thinking -- I knew he shouldn't have married into that nut house, I always had a bad feeling about them. The Seewalds -- I think pushed Ben a bit into marriage with a Duggar star as they thought about the life it would allow their son to have; they may have some regret too. I'm guessing Marjorie's parents are thinking about how to convince her not to marry Josiah or at least turn this courtship into a normal, VERY slow dating situation where she can learn whatever secrets she needs to know that'll never come out in the presence of an 8 yr old chaperone.

 

If any Duggar wants to or has considered escaping -- I'm thinking Jana, Jinger, Joy, Josiah or the twins -- wouldn't the next few weeks be the perfect time? I'm thinking JB and Michelle will attempt a bit of a press tour -- if anyone will have them -- or at least try to get a lot of media exposure to "clarify" what happened. I expect JB will expect the older ones to say -- all is forgiven, no worries. Isn't this the perfect time to say -- sorry pops, I can't do that; you either give me $50,000 and a plane ticket and I will quietly disappear to another city for a job in a coffee shop or any place that will hire me and start building my own life OR I will go to the media and specifically tell what happened and what life is REALLY like in this house, your choice?! Wouldn't that allow that group to escape with a decent sum of money in hand -- enough to rent a home together, get jobs, each kid uses said job to build up savings or use job money to go to college/trade school, date, make friends, and live normally and without any sense of fear??

 

That would be awesome. And it would make me wonder if one of the girls leaked the story - which would be even more awesome.

[cereality]

Very true re Josh and finances -- I didn't even think about severance. It's quite likely that FRC approached him with -- resign now and issue a statement re your resignation and we will pay you with full benefits for the next 6 months. Something like that carries him through the end of 2015 -- which is a LONG time. Frankly he can re-appear in DC when the press dies down in another week or two, bring JD and a few other brothers, wrap up his home and drive his stuff back to Arkansas -- and live for the rest of the yr on his DC salary while in Arkansas -- which means he actually ends up saving money, since everything in Arkansas is cheaper than DC. During this time, he no doubt calls himself a "political consultant" -- whether anyone wants anything to do with him or not -- while scratching his head and figuring out whether there are any career options for him outside of what daddy dearest can create, and if there aren't -- viola-- by the time the severance runs out, there's a new used car lot or tree service or something that's up and running.

[JenCarroll]

Are we all assuming that the incidents that were reported were the only ones that ever happened? I realize one girl said she wasn't touched, but it's not necessarily the case -- she may have been asleep, she may have repressed it, or she may just have kept quiet out of shame or family loyalty or some other motivation. Beyond that, I'd hate to think any of the other brothers or any other male in the house did anything like this, or that Josh having lost his power-trip outlet could have found other ways of dominating or emotionally hurting his sisters. Besides continuing to exist, I mean. I think I posted up-thread (possibly on a different thread) that I am haunted by the thought, "What else don't we know? What if this is just the tip of the iceberg?"

[cmr2014]

I may be in the minority here, but right this second, I have some compassion for Josh. I can completely understand the posters here who don't -- especially those who were molested themselves.

 

Just now, tonight, Josh knows that he is responsible for destroying his world, and for bringing ruin on his family. He has lost his job (and I don't think he resigned, I think he came into work this morning and was handed a resignation letter to sign). He is not only responsible for destroying his own future, but that of his family, and his siblings. If the show is cancelled (and I think it will be), the lives of his siblings could be reduced from their current comfort to the life of insecurity he has as a child. His sisters are now "damaged goods" in their world and will have a difficult time finding husbands.

 

That's a lot on his shoulders for something he did -- as reprehensible as it might be -- at age 14.

 

And I lay this all on his parents. One poster above noted that people all over the world live in sexually repressed cultures, and young boys don't molest there -- but they do. Countries (like India which has been in the news recently) where sexuality is heavily repressed and women have no autonomy, have sky high rates of sexual abuse.

 

The Duggars are simply terrible parents. Once this happened in their household, they saw no reason to reconsider their lifestyle. They sent Josh away for 3 months of physical labor -- problem solved! They saw no reason to open up -- even a little -- to allow their children normal social contact. They never even considered that they might be overwhelmed as parents and not be giving their full attention to their children -- nope, they just kept popping out babies.

 

Nothing is ever their fault. No problem could ever be caused by the decisions that they've made. They just keep pushing forward with no thought, and no concern for the damage that they have done -- to their own children!

[TaxNerd]

That would be awesome. And it would make me wonder if one of the girls leaked the story - which would be even more awesome.

I think the girls, especially the ones in the house, suffer the most from this being made public. Rampant speculation will follow them forever. Their entire world changed this week, and not in a positive way, at least at this point.

[Wellfleet]

Went back and read some of the posts and I really think that too much is being made of how "sexually repressed" he was and poor Duggars they can have no contact with the opposite sex. I know the Duggars think they invented the rules re lack of pre marital contact with the opposite sex -- but there are many other cultures where it's common including in the U.S. Think Orthodox Jews, orthodox Muslims, and certain Eastern cultures. There are no boyfriends or girlfriends, handing holding, kissing, hugging -- even after a marriage is pretty much arranged for you. I know families from each of these religions and cultures where the first opposite sex contact has been on the wedding night -- NOT EVEN holding hands or a kiss during the wedding/wedding day. And yet somehow those grooms managed not to fondle anyone through there teen years and often into their 20s. I think it's "excusing" Josh to say -- oh he did this bc he was so repressed and he was just a curious 14 yr old. I'm sure people in those cultures are curious too -- they just know where the lines are. And if they really can't handle the curiosity and make it all the way to marriage -- fine -- they find a way to sneak porn or Playboys or a consensual "you show me yours I'll show you mine" or even a consensual "friends w benefits" situation -- they don't feel up their sisters and cousins.

 

While there are definitely other very conservative cultures in the world, I think it's quite a leap to say that "...those grooms managed not to fondle anyone through there teen years and often into their 20s..."  I think that abuse goes on in every culture, at every socioeconomic level, at every age and much more often than we would believe. We're only beginning to discover how much, and for how long. Important to remember - it's only been in the last 100-150 years that some men have begun to acknowledge women as equals, instead of as property.  

 

Edited to Add - Give yourselves a treat. Go to YouTube and search for Meryl Streep's 2010 Commencement speech at Barnard College. Highly recommend this - it's a wonderful talk and well worth the time. Meryl - like I know her !!! - mentions the fact that very soon female college graduates will outnumber male graduates in the US, that until the early part of the 20th century women weren't even allowed inside the college buildings at Barnard except to clean them, and that women in many countries can now OWN property, when they used to BE property. Great speech - and entertaining as well. 

Edited May 22, 2015 by Wellfleet

[cereality]

I may be in the minority here, but right this second, I have some compassion for Josh. I can completely understand the posters here who don't -- especially those who were molested themselves.

 

Just now, tonight, Josh knows that he is responsible for destroying his world, and for bringing ruin on his family. He has lost his job (and I don't think he resigned, I think he came into work this morning and was handed a resignation letter to sign). He is not only responsible for destroying his own future, but that of his family, and his siblings. If the show is cancelled (and I think it will be), the lives of his siblings could be reduced from their current comfort to the life of insecurity he has as a child. His sisters are now "damaged goods" in their world and will have a difficult time finding husbands.

 

That's a lot on his shoulders for something he did -- as reprehensible as it might be -- at age 14.

 

And I lay this all on his parents. One poster above noted that people all over the world live in sexually repressed cultures, and young boys don't molest there -- but they do. Countries (like India which has been in the news recently) where sexuality is heavily repressed and women have no autonomy, have sky high rates of sexual abuse.

 

The Duggars are simply terrible parents. Once this happened in their household, they saw no reason to reconsider their lifestyle. They sent Josh away for 3 months of physical labor -- problem solved! They saw no reason to open up -- even a little -- to allow their children normal social contact. They never even considered that they might be overwhelmed as parents and not be giving their full attention to their children -- nope, they just kept popping out babies.

 

Nothing is ever their fault. No problem could ever be caused by the decisions that they've made. They just keep pushing forward with no thought, and no concern for the damage that they have done -- to their own children!

I'm not suggesting that boys don't molest in other countries -- I'm suggesting that the Duggars don't have the market cornered on being sexually repressed. Practically every 14 yr old boy out there is repressed -- all he wants is sex and rarely -- if ever -- can he get it. He handles it. Whether that's by jerking off or sneaking porn or finding a friend who will "consent" -- in any event the vast majority realize that touching a sister or a cousin is NEVER an option.

[mynextmistake]

Very true re Josh and finances -- I didn't even think about severance. It's quite likely that FRC approached him with -- resign now and issue a statement re your resignation and we will pay you with full benefits for the next 6 months. Something like that carries him through the end of 2015 -- which is a LONG time. Frankly he can re-appear in DC when the press dies down in another week or two, bring JD and a few other brothers, wrap up his home and drive his stuff back to Arkansas -- and live for the rest of the yr on his DC salary while in Arkansas -- which means he actually ends up saving money, since everything in Arkansas is cheaper than DC. During this time, he no doubt calls himself a "political consultant" -- whether anyone wants anything to do with him or not -- while scratching his head and figuring out whether there are any career options for him outside of what daddy dearest can create, and if there aren't -- viola-- by the time the severance runs out, there's a new used car lot or tree service or something that's up and running.

Eh, I don't know. I'm not sure the FRC would pay severance in this situation. If he had driven drunk or screwed an intern I could see them offering the "leave quietly and we'll make it worth your while" deal, but he allegedly committed multiple counts of child sexual abuse. That's a henious crime that nobody outside the extreme fundie circles is going to forgive. I doubt your rank and file FRC donor would approve of their money continuing to pay his salary for the next several months. He had to go regardless of severance pay, and if he has two brain cells to rub together he knew that.

I also wonder how feasible it is for Jim Bob to set him up in a new business given all this bad publicity. It's not like the good people of Arkansas have a shortage of places that will sell them a used car or trim their trees.

[cereality]

I think the girls, especially the ones in the house, suffer the most from this being made public. Rampant speculation will follow them forever. Their entire world changed this week, and not in a positive way, at least at this point.

Yeah -- I mean what woman wants anyone to be thinking about her breasts and vagina and who may or may not have touched them and in what manner.

 

I will say though -- if they aren't scarred for life and scared of men forever -- today it just became less likely that Jana, Jinger, and Joy Anna will end up with fundie husbands. The "reputable" fundie families out there will want to distance themselves from this shitshow and from girls that they will now consider "damaged goods." That means there's a huge chance of dating and finding a Christian who likes you for who you are, does not care what your brother did, and will not expect you to give him a child every yr. If Jana, Joy, or Jinger want it -- they will end up with a regular husband, 2.5 kids and a house in some other city far from NW Arkansas.

[PrincessSteel]

This show was a guilty pleasure, something that I would have on as background noise while sewing or cooking. But now, no. Just no. This whole thing is beyond snark. I have to go throw up meals I haven't eaten yet.

[bk10]

I just read a ton of pages about Josh and looked at the police reports. I'm so speechless right now. I always wondered if something like that went down in that house, but I thought it was because I was being a terrible human being and assuming the worst from people whose lifestyle I don't agree with. I never saw it coming from Josh. I feel sorry for Ana and his kids. I feel even worse for the victims. His poor sisters. This makes me hate Jim and Michelle so much. They spent all of those years having child after child instead of paying attention and being real parents to the ones that they already had. They had this happening in their household time after time and did virtually nothing. They are scums and my heart just aches for those poor children. 

I wonder if this is the reason why they have such strict courtship rules where you can't even have a real hug with the person you're supposed to spend the rest of your life with. Is this why they formed their own church? were the church members judging them after they went to the elders? Is this why no kid could be alone or unaccounted for? I have so many questions and I will probably never get an answer. 

I'll just leave you guys with a tweet that I saw and resonated with me. "So-called Christians who've been condemning you to Hell for months are suddenly demanding you show compassion and forgive Josh Duggar." They spend so much time spewing hate and condemning people and now we're all supposed to sweep this under the rug and act like it's not that serious?

[TaxNerd]

I may be in the minority here, but right this second, I have some compassion for Josh. I can completely understand the posters here who don't -- especially those who were molested themselves.

I know I sure feel for him right now, but it's entirely because I'm still processing the whole situation. We've followed this family for 10 years and do feel like we know them personally. I need a few days to process the fact that Josh was a predator and to reconcile that to the image of the family I have. It really feels like a betrayal and is almost overwhelming. If Anna and the kids weren't in the picture it would be more black and white, but they do make the issue more grey. Smug or not, I wished the best for them.

Even with the police report, it's hard to believe, for me. It just is taking a few hours to sink in that it IS real. I spent several years feeling bad for the kid shipped off to Alert, that it is hard to switch that mindset immediately.

[Spencer Hastings]

I'm not saying that what Josh did isn't despicable in every sense of the word, or that his victims haven't suffered and will now continue to suffer even more now that the entire world knows what happened to them, but I can't imagine what it must be like knowing that your actions as a 14 year old have essentially destroyed your entire family.  In a small family that would be a heavy weight to bear.  In this family though, you've just financially destroyed 18 siblings, a wife, your four children, your in-laws, your nieces and nephews....that's a lot of fallout, without even digging deeper into the emotional trauma.  Again, I'm not trying to lessen what he did or the pain that these girls are surely going through, but I'd be keeping a round the clock watch on Joshie.

[luvly]

So wait, when did the Duggars start being filmed for tv?  I think there is a lot of interest in trying to understand how damaging (or not) a reality tv camera crew constantly in the home can be for children.  Basically, as long as the crew is there, or they are preparing for the crew to be there, the children are technically working or preparing to work.  I wonder if TLC's slowness in canceling the series or making a statement might be because they realize that they came into the family's life right when these things just started happening.  Could they possibly fear the backlash of being blamed for creating this situation or even for failing to acknowledge something was off?  

 

The first special, 14 Children and Pregnant Again, aired in 2004. There were 3 specials (16 Children and Moving In, Raising 16 Children and On the Road with 16 Children) in 2006, a special in the summer of 2008 (Duggars' Big Family Album) and then the show premiered as 17 Kids and Counting in the fall of 2008. I can't remember all the dates right now because I'm still throw by that police report, but at the very least, they knew about the molestation at that point even if they hadn't gotten him "counseling" yet. 

[becca3891]

I'm still in shock. So many thoughts, so here are just a couple. I know we aren't sure which of the girls were abused, but one of the first things that leaped to my mind was Jana's statement that she has trouble harboring anger towards some of her family members. I think the implications of that are heart-breaking. As far as we know, NONE of the victims got counseling. The only counseling mentioned was for Josh, and that ended up being a lie.

 

I have always thought Josh had strained/nonexistent relationships with his sisters and now we know why. Boob decided the right way to handle it would be to tell Josh not to touch them, and to pray it all away. As others have said, it does explain the side hugs even among different sex siblings. But the horrible part about that is that they may have been told that front hugging Josh is what led him to the "need" to molest them. God, I hope that was never said.

 

Wow, maybe one of the girls did deliberately put the note into the book to give to the friend. I hadn't thought of that.
 

 

I haven't seen too much comment about the mention in the police report that the children were spanked with a rod. That is abuse, too.

 

But sadly in this country, not illegal. I have said for years that they are being dishonest by not owning up to beating their children, and I'm glad the public will now know about that abuse as well.

[cereality]

They had all become too dependent on TLC money and fame and in their heart of hearts knew it couldn't last forever. There are too many other similar but more likeable families out there -- from the Bates to the Willis'. With this news, those families just got a whole lot more likeable and if I were Ben, Derick, or Josiah -- I'd be thinking about a solid plan to separate from Duggar world and create a career/life for my own wife/girlfriend without any expectation of seeing another dollar from JB or TLC again.

[humbleopinion]

Ben/Jessa Seewald are thinking...Damn, Ben's gotta get a j-o-b now that the TV money is about to dry up.

Windshields anyone?