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The Duggalos: Jinger and the Holy Goalie

frenchtoast

By frenchtoast
in Counting On

cm-soupsipper
Message added by cm-soupsipper,

Closure Notice: This Thread is now closed due to the name (and much of the posting within it). Please be mindful going forward by naming topics in a way that invites a healthy community conversation. If you name something for a cheap laugh, this thread may be closed later because it encourages discrimination and harm. 

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Spencer Hastings
Spencer Hastings

Tough crowd!  She's wearing modern shoes with closed toes, pants, and a shirt that literally calls back to her family's ridiculous rules and there are still 35 things wrong with what she's doing. 

Churchhoney
Churchhoney

That's okay. He's forgotten it a few times himself. 

GeeGolly
GeeGolly

My push presents after having my kids were my kids. 

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Churchhoney

Churchhoney

(edited)
3 hours ago, Crisinbama said:

Has anyone seen this?  Thoughts?

https://www.thehollywoodgossip.com/2017/09/jinger-duggar-and-jeremy-vuolo-moving-to-scotland/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=JinJerScotland

I don't think a long-established specialty publisher -- in the UK, too -- is likely to hire an American ex-soccer-player with a business degree whose only theology experience or education is what he's picked up in passing as a minister to a tiny tiny church in Texas -- for, what, two years or less?--  as an editor of books on theology (that are sold to seminaries and libraries, among other places). This would not enhance their credibility. And in publishing -- especially specialty and scholarly publishing -- credibility matters. 

I'm sure they have plenty of other candidates with education and/or experience in theology as well as in writing and editing. ... And I'm sure Jer knows this. He can dream and joke, but believing it's a possibility is another matter, I expect. 

By contrast, when it comes to credibility publishers like The Hollywood Gossip -- they don't give a crap. Because they write to titillate and fool the easily foolable. If there were a hell, I'd like to see their writers and editors burn in it, frankly. 

Edited by Churchhoney
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questionfear

questionfear

I think it depends on how much experience is required to be an editorial assistant. I have several friends who currently or formerly worked in the publishing world, and all of them started at entry level positions straight out of college with varying degrees. Some were english majors, but others were history and other majors...many of those jobs don't care about your background, they care about how well you can edit. Often, part of the job interview is to edit a portion of a manuscript, etc.

Not saying that Jeremy will get the job, or that he's capable of it, but if it's an entry level editing job the prerequisites are probably low. 

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Nysha

Nysha

5 minutes ago, questionfear said:

I think it depends on how much experience is required to be an editorial assistant. I have several friends who currently or formerly worked in the publishing world, and all of them started at entry level positions straight out of college with varying degrees. Some were english majors, but others were history and other majors...many of those jobs don't care about your background, they care about how well you can edit. Often, part of the job interview is to edit a portion of a manuscript, etc.

How do you get into that field? I edited my communication professor's textbook and several of his speeches and loved it. My majors are Information Systems Analysis, Web Design, and Information Systems Security, but I've been working as a college tutor for the last 10 years.

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questionfear

questionfear

1 hour ago, Nysha said:

How do you get into that field? I edited my communication professor's textbook and several of his speeches and loved it. My majors are Information Systems Analysis, Web Design, and Information Systems Security, but I've been working as a college tutor for the last 10 years.

Most of the people I know who work in publishing and editing ended up in it fresh out of college. One college friend of mine was an english major, did some internships/summer jobs with publishers and got an entry level job post-college, where she met several other people around our age who all became part of our larger friend group (this is the same reason why I know a ton of lawyers and a fair number of neuroscientists...the post-college friend group kept absorbing everyone's coworkers). IIRC, only my friend is still working in publishing; from what I recall, one of the other editing people went on to law school, and another went into marketing. But basically, from what I remember, they were all basically hired as entry-level grunts doing basic textbook editing, and moved up from there. 

Then again, this was also 15ish years ago, and I believe the publishing world has shrunk somewhat since then. 

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queenanne

queenanne

1 hour ago, questionfear said:

Most of the people I know who work in publishing and editing ended up in it fresh out of college. One college friend of mine was an english major, did some internships/summer jobs with publishers and got an entry level job post-college, where she met several other people around our age who all became part of our larger friend group (this is the same reason why I know a ton of lawyers and a fair number of neuroscientists...the post-college friend group kept absorbing everyone's coworkers). IIRC, only my friend is still working in publishing; from what I recall, one of the other editing people went on to law school, and another went into marketing. But basically, from what I remember, they were all basically hired as entry-level grunts doing basic textbook editing, and moved up from there. 

Then again, this was also 15ish years ago, and I believe the publishing world has shrunk somewhat since then. 

Shrunk, and/but they pay more.  (A friend of mine who had always been parentally subsidized, took a job with Penguin Putnam in the 90s - at 19,500/year.  ‘As you may imagine, it can be a struggle to make ends meet in New York City ‘, she once wrote me.). The major publishers agreed to raise the minimum salaries for starting jobs in the 2010s. I don’t think it was higher than 26k anywhere though, which is like 2600 in New York City, though I can’t find the source of the raise.

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Churchhoney

Churchhoney

(edited)
4 hours ago, Kokapetl said:

It’s not happening, but what would he really be more persuaded by, the knits or the religion? Scotland isn't really a hotbed of religion.

Actually, Scotland's long been a big big center of Calvinism in its various forms. And Jer happens to be enamored (as many young Americans are) of the particular brand of modern Calvinism that Banner of Truth represents. I expect Jer is crazy about Banner of Truth because their take on Calvinism may be the most dominant in the new U.S. Calvinism fad. So it's probably the most promising job- and prestige-wise. It's also big -- as is Banner of Truth the organization -- with one of the old guys he follows around, MacArthur. 

Of course, none of that rules out interest in kilts -- or even sweaters. Or just tartans generally.  ;  )

Edited by Churchhoney
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Churchhoney

Churchhoney

(edited)
7 hours ago, Nysha said:

How do you get into that field? I edited my communication professor's textbook and several of his speeches and loved it. My majors are Information Systems Analysis, Web Design, and Information Systems Security, but I've been working as a college tutor for the last 10 years.

Best thing is to look at publications and publishers specializing in some field you've worked in or have academic credentials in. With the bit of editing experience you have and the general subject-matter expertise you have, it could be fairly easy to get a job on a pub related to that (always depending on the job market at the moment, of course). Subject-matter knowledge is a huge help in getting a job at specialty pubs or in the specialty divisions of book publishers.

That's what Jer would trade on, I expect, if he were serious about getting an editing job. But I expect he also knows that, at this point, he really doesn't have the relevant subject-matter education or experience. There are a lot of people with theology degrees out there who are also looking for work. That's not an academic field where jobs are easy to come by, as I understand it. And they'd get the nod at virtually all publications and publishers who specialize in religion. If you know the relevant subject matter that's a huge learning curve that the publisher doesn't have to wait through with you. 

Edited by Churchhoney
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riverblue22

riverblue22

I know two people who edit textbooks from home.  They are full time jobs and maybe once a year they go to a meeting with their company.   One way to find those jobs is a website called flexjobs.com.  You have to pay to join but the jobs are vetted.  Maybe Jeremy should try his hand at editing that way.

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mynextmistake

mynextmistake

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5 hours ago, latetotheparty said:

I have to agree. Also, interestingly, Jinger is a much smoother speaker than Jeremy. 

Wow, endorsing a program that could actually help people? Instead of grifting an all-expenses-paid trip to hand out banana loaf in Danger America? That's pretty impressive. 

Also, Jeremy looks at Jinger when she's talking almost as much as she looks at him when he's talking. You know, like they're equals or something. Jim Bob's head would probably burst into flames if he saw this. I'm not sure Michelle can even straighten her neck anymore. 

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GeeGolly

GeeGolly

Kudos to Jeremy's mom. And kudos to Jing & Jer for not making a fake Counting On episode a la Ben's Football for Kids.

With all the time the Duggar kidults have on their hands why hasn't one of them come up with something real to have a positive effect on society?

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doodlebug

doodlebug

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1 hour ago, Jynnan tonnix said:

Agreed that is actually sounds like a good program. I'm all about giving kids opportunities to study music! And did Jinger refer to Mrs Vuolo as "Mom" there? I wonder how Michelle feels about that...

Jinger referred to her as 'Mom' multiple times, then again, with the kind of 'mothering' she gave her kids, Michelle is lucky Jinger doesn't call chairs or blankets or shoes 'Mom'.  If ever there was an inanimate object pretending to be alive, it's Michelle.

Jinger is a better script reader/actor than Jeremy, but she's been doing it for so much longer, she's had a lot more practice..

So, Jinger is not only wearing pants, she's promoting secular music programs for the children of sinners, totally ignoring that 'sins of the fathers' screed.  There's hope for her yet. I hope JB and Michelle are devastated.

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Normades

Normades

20 hours ago, louannems said:

Do you mean the kilts?

I'm wondering how fundamentalists reconcile kilts as menswear? We all know how hung up they are on gender identity and clothing.  Are they as ignorant and rude as with everything else and call them men in skirts and consider it an abomination??

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Jynnan tonnix

Jynnan tonnix

12 minutes ago, Normades said:

I'm wondering how fundamentalists reconcile kilts as menswear? We all know how hung up they are on gender identity and clothing.  Are they as ignorant and rude as with everything else and call them men in skirts and consider it an abomination??

Well, they CAN be pretty defrauding, at the very least. ;-)

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Genevrier

Genevrier

On 10/11/2017 at 10:03 AM, Nysha said:

How do you get into that field? I edited my communication professor's textbook and several of his speeches and loved it. My majors are Information Systems Analysis, Web Design, and Information Systems Security, but I've been working as a college tutor for the last 10 years.

I found there was a lot of freelance editorial work available when I taught in a college. Prentice-Hall gave me a lot of work editing and sometimes writing instructor support materials. It paid really well for the amount of work involved.

Publishers are always looking for people to do at least chapter reviews for textbook manuscripts, and your fields are very fertile ground. I’d ask everyone you know that teaches in your areas, whether they get asked to do chapter reviews or other work from textbook publishers, and ask them to forward your name if they do. They would pay maybe $100 for a chapter review, but then when I did well at it they started offering me the bigger jobs. Those usually paid several thousand dollars and could be completed in anything from one day to a few weeks, depending on the job. Good luck! 

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louannems

louannems

8 hours ago, mynextmistake said:

Wow, endorsing a program that could actually help people? Instead of grifting an all-expenses-paid trip to hand out banana loaf in Danger America? That's pretty impressive. 

Also, Jeremy looks at Jinger when she's talking almost as much as she looks at him when he's talking. You know, like they're equals or something. Jim Bob's head would probably burst into flames if he saw this. I'm not sure Michelle can even straighten her neck anymore. 

I still found it creepy when Jinger cranes her neck up to Jeremy's head for many seconds at a time.  IRL, who ever does this?  I know, she's Gothard trained and all!

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OpieTaylor

OpieTaylor

So is the Swan program basically Mrs. V giving music lessons to kids whose parents are jailed? Are there other teachers besides Mrs. V? I guess I should check out their website for more info. Is the hope that a music education will give these disadvantaged kids a skill and therefore more options? 

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doodlebug

doodlebug

(edited)
3 hours ago, OpieTaylor said:

So is the Swan program basically Mrs. V giving music lessons to kids whose parents are jailed? Are there other teachers besides Mrs. V? I guess I should check out their website for more info. Is the hope that a music education will give these disadvantaged kids a skill and therefore more options? 

There is a lot of research out there that shows that kids exposed to music do better in school, graduate at higher rates, get into less trouble than kids not given that opportunity.  So, maybe its a bit indirect, but Mrs Vuolo using her considerable musical talents (she is a terrific violinist, look her up) to give kids the chance to learn more about music; is undoubtedly providing a valuable service.

The Swan website is actually quite impressive, it appears to be a well though out program for kids.  Not a mention of Jesus anywhere, BTW.

ETA: Turns out the website is misleading and there is indeed preaching their brand of Jesus at the kids in addition to the music lessons.  There is a tiny blurb about their 'ministry' on the page that talks about their board of directors and founders. Too bad.

Edited by doodlebug
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bythelake

bythelake

10 hours ago, mynextmistake said:

Wow, endorsing a program that could actually help people? Instead of grifting an all-expenses-paid trip to hand out banana loaf in Danger America? That's pretty impressive. 

Also, Jeremy looks at Jinger when she's talking almost as much as she looks at him when he's talking. You know, like they're equals or something. Jim Bob's head would probably burst into flames if he saw this. I'm not sure Michelle can even straighten her neck anymore. 

Wouldn't it be nice if Jinger was the one who served as a role model for the younger Duggar girls to follow? She is showing them there is a way to live beyond keeping sweet and popping out blessings. IMO it's too late for the other marrieds and Jana,  but maybe, Hannie, Jennie, Jordan. Mack and Meri, will see the difference. Jeremy is not my favorite person, but he has shown Jinger a  world so removed from the narrow one in which she was raised,  and she's soaking it up like a sponge. She seems to have more intelligence than Jill and Joy, and a more curious nature. Time will tell.

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doodlebug

doodlebug

19 minutes ago, Lunera said:

The Duggar family page told people to check out the Vuolo's ministry not charity.

This is from their website 460ef141-ddde-481c-a18f-178c5683528a.png.e087fe6d8b404c6c187a0e643f685723.png

Hmmm.. interesting that the website contains nary a mention of this.  Seems like a bit of bait and switch going on.  Too bad, because the program itself seems to be very good, but subjecting anyone to proselytizing under false pretenses is just wrong.  The website does make note that learning to play an instrument or sing in a choir helps kids develop self discipline and patience and perseverance, which is true, but doesn't mention that all of this is being done under the larger umbrella of forcing their brand of Christianity on kids. 

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GeeGolly

GeeGolly

Shit, its a faith for music exchange? Do the Vuolo's practice pushy, righteous, dark, believe or die Christianity? I guess its better than a banana bread square but still, it leaves me feeling disappointed. 

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floridamom

floridamom

Can't anyone associated with the Duggars or the Duggars themselves do anything charitable without blackmailing the recipients in to listening to religious talk? A true "Christian' helps ANYONE in need, no questions asked, no requirements to sit in on a religion lesson that makes THEM feel good.

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mythoughtis

mythoughtis

So the students are told in advance that this will involve religion. They are free to join or not to join/ just like Boy Scouts, church youth groups, church summer camps, Salvation Army( hence the word salvation), AA, and so forth.  I don’t see a problem here. Lots of groups that work with kids are faith based. 

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Churchhoney

Churchhoney

1 hour ago, GeeGolly said:

Shit, its a faith for music exchange? Do the Vuolo's practice pushy, righteous, dark, believe or die Christianity? I guess its better than a banana bread square but still, it leaves me feeling disappointed. 

Well, Chuck spends his life pushing conversion to the correct Jesus on Amish and Mennonite people. And he's quite heavily into "biblical gender roles." Frankly, I'm not convinced that's better than banana bread. Just less obviously tacky. Not sure about this, but the details might make me find it even less forgivable, since it's not done by somebody who's primarily a dumb-ass but by somebody who has enough brains and education to know better but chooses to use those brains in a manipulative way. .... Caveat: I may overreact to Chuck because he strikes me as arrogant as all get out. And I'm not fond of that. Nor do I think it's particularly Christian in any sense that appeals to me. 

17 minutes ago, floridamom said:

Can't anyone associated with the Duggars or the Duggars themselves do anything charitable without blackmailing the recipients in to listening to religious talk? A true "Christian' helps ANYONE in need, no questions asked, no requirements to sit in on a religion lesson that makes THEM feel good.

No. Because they consider conversion to the correct Jesus to be the one single most important thing in the universe. And they want to make sure that everybody knows that they are big buddies and devotees of the right one. ..... And I'm pretty sure that nobody who feels otherwise about themselves would marry or otherwise permanently link themselves to the Duggars after knowing them for as long as 20 minutes. So the adjacents all share these predilections. 

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Churchhoney

Churchhoney

12 minutes ago, mythoughtis said:

So the students are told in advance that this will involve religion. They are free to join or not to join/ just like Boy Scouts, church youth groups, church summer camps, Salvation Army( hence the word salvation), AA, and so forth.  I don’t see a problem here. Lots of groups that work with kids are faith based. 

In a way I guess I agree with this. On the other hand, a child of an incarcerated parent is generally in such a world of confusion and difficulty that expecting such a kid (or a parent of that kid, who also has to be suffering major emotional distress) to make a rational and informed decision about whether he or she wants to participate in something like this is probably asking way too much.

And, more to the point I guess, I don't think it's very kind or loving or fair to push your theology (or any other kind of ideology) on a child or teen with this big a trouble in their lives. I just don't think kids can cope with any kind of indoctrination under such circumstances, no matter how kindly the indoctrinator may intend it. They of course completely disagree with me because they think that the only truly good thing you can do for another human being is to make sure they know which is the correct Jesus and that they'll burn in hell if they don't accept him. 

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EVS

EVS

(edited)
1 hour ago, Churchhoney said:

Well, Chuck spends his life pushing conversion to the correct Jesus on Amish and Mennonite people. And he's quite heavily into "biblical gender roles." Frankly, I'm not convinced that's better than banana bread. Just less obviously tacky. Not sure about this, but the details might make me find it even less forgivable, since it's not done by somebody who's primarily a dumb-ass but by somebody who has enough brains and education to know better but chooses to use those brains in a manipulative way. .... Caveat: I may overreact to Chuck because he strikes me as arrogant as all get out. And I'm not fond of that. Nor do I think it's particularly Christian in any sense that appeals to me. 

No. Because they consider conversion to the correct Jesus to be the one single most important thing in the universe. And they want to make sure that everybody knows that they are big buddies and devotees of the right one. ..... And I'm pretty sure that nobody who feels otherwise about themselves would marry or otherwise permanently link themselves to the Duggars after knowing them for as long as 20 minutes. So the adjacents all share these predilections. 

I just watched the pilot episode of “The Good Place”.  I wish I could remember the exact quote but Kristen Bell’s character basically asks Ted Danson’s character (Michael) how accurate Christians are about the afterlife. Michael says that each religion in the world is about 5% correct in their beliefs, but some college dude, who got high on mushrooms one night and went on a massive religious rant, ended up being 96% accurate. His picture was on Michael’s wall. 

As a Christian, that basically summarized my feelings. I’ve posted this before, but I think it is incredibly arrogant for any person or religion to think they are better than another, or think they know it all, or think theirs is the only “true” religion. Just one of the many things I can’t stand about the Duggars.

Edited by EVS
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doodlebug

doodlebug

1 hour ago, mythoughtis said:

So the students are told in advance that this will involve religion. They are free to join or not to join/ just like Boy Scouts, church youth groups, church summer camps, Salvation Army( hence the word salvation), AA, and so forth.  I don’t see a problem here. Lots of groups that work with kids are faith based. 

This would be true if these kids had other options to learn about music.  These kids are poor, sometimes in foster care; if they want to learn to play and instrument or sing, they don't have a lot of options.  To dangle the carrot of free music lessons including a free instrument and the chance to attend a lot of music events and perform at quite a few in front of a kid who really wants this while also requiring mandatory indoctrination into their version of Christianity is really a crappy thing to do, IMO.  What about a kid who is being raised Muslim, or Jewish or, God forbid, Catholic?  Excluding them from this opportunity because they or their parents are not willing to participate in mandatory teaching of a narrow minded faith that teaches that the kid is going straight to hell unless they confirm to that faith; is really pretty in-Christian, IMO.  It's also kinda coercive in that some kids will be so desperate for the musical experience that they will acquiesce to the preaching to get it.  It The Swan volunteers might not think that's a problem, but I, and a lot of others, do.

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mynextmistake

mynextmistake

(edited)
28 minutes ago, doodlebug said:

This would be true if these kids had other options to learn about music.  These kids are poor, sometimes in foster care; if they want to learn to play and instrument or sing, they don't have a lot of options.  To dangle the carrot of free music lessons including a free instrument and the chance to attend a lot of music events and perform at quite a few in front of a kid who really wants this while also requiring mandatory indoctrination into their version of Christianity is really a crappy thing to do, IMO.  What about a kid who is being raised Muslim, or Jewish or, God forbid, Catholic?  Excluding them from this opportunity because they or their parents are not willing to participate in mandatory teaching of a narrow minded faith that teaches that the kid is going straight to hell unless they confirm to that faith; is really pretty in-Christian, IMO.  It's also kinda coercive in that some kids will be so desperate for the musical experience that they will acquiesce to the preaching to get it.  It The Swan volunteers might not think that's a problem, but I, and a lot of others, do.

I agree that it would be nice if this program allowed kids and families to opt out of the religious element. However, I also recognize that no program is going to be all things to all people. The Vuolo family are evangelical Christians; it's not surprising that a charity program they established is less than secular. It's their charity. They can include Bible-thumping if they want to. Nobody is forcing families to participate. Kids, even foster kids with incarcerated parents, don't have a right to a free musical education on their terms. 

I don't know. I'm kind of surprising myself by defending the Vuolos. I think I've just watched the "Christian" Duggars sit back and do absolutely nothing to help anyone (except Josh, of course) for so long that I'm heartened to see that at least somebody in their circle is acting charitably, even if the charity includes a religious element.

Edited by mynextmistake
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DangerousMinds

DangerousMinds

I do think kids have a right to a free musical education. Learning 2 instruments was one of the best, most important parts of my public education. It should still be offered in all schools. Music is my religion. 

They can offer music education without trying to "convert" young children.

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doodlebug

doodlebug

(edited)
23 minutes ago, mynextmistake said:

I agree that it would be nice if this program allowed kids and families to opt out of the religious element. However, I also recognize that no program is going to be all things to all people. The Vuolo family are evangelical Christians; it's not surprising that a charity program they established is less than secular. It's their charity. They can include Bible-thumping if they want to. Nobody is forcing families to participate. Kids, even foster kids with incarcerated parents, don't have a right to a free musical education on their terms. 

I don't know. I'm kind of surprising myself by defending the Vuolos. I think I've just watched the "Christian" Duggars sit back and do absolutely nothing to help anyone (except Josh, of course) for so long that I'm heartened to see that at least somebody in their circle is acting charitably, even if the charity includes a religious element.

I realize that free musical education is a privilege and not a right; but it still saddens me that these so-called Christians attach such major strings to it.  Take a look at the website, listen to Jeremy and Jinger tout Swan.  They deliberately exclude or minimize the religious element (it's buried at the bottom of an inside page on the website).  If they were more upfront in telling their donors and especially their potential recipients that it isn't solely a music program; that it is a music AND religious training program; it would be fairer, IMO.  It would be no trouble for Jinger and Jer to add a sentence or two to their appeal for donors about the religious requirements.  There's no reason that the front page of the site, which ostensibly explains the nature of the charity and its goals shouldn't include their religious aims and training. too, especially since it is apparently mandatory in order obtain the musical training.  The way they bury the lead in the story makes me wonder just how up front they are with the kids and parents/guardians who join up.  It's dishonest and misleading, IMO.  Would they take a kid who wanted to do the religious stuff but not participate in the music?  What about a child who wants to learn music but doesn't want the religious indoctrination?  I have a feeling we all know the answer and it indicates to me that this is not a musical education charity with a religious slant but a religious education charity with a musical slant; and not really a charity at all.  Sneaky and underhanded, IMO.

Edited by doodlebug
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mynextmistake

mynextmistake

(edited)
44 minutes ago, DangerousMinds said:

I do think kids have a right to a free musical education. Learning 2 instruments was one of the best, most important parts of my public education. It should still be offered in all schools. Music is my religion. 

They can offer music education without trying to "convert" young children.

That's great that you were given the chance to learn to play an instrument! I agree it would be wonderful if all children were afforded that opportunity, but while you may view it as a right, it isn't one in any legal sense. Lots and lots of children don't get the chance to learn an instrument because their schools don't offer a program and their parents can't afford lessons. I was one of those children, so it's not like I'm sitting here after fifteen years of private piano lessons rubbing my hands together like the Grinch and cackling about denying musical education to foster children. 

I think maybe the issue is that some people are looking at this from the perspective of whether the Vuolos should allow children who want to learn music to do so without the religious teaching, while I am looking at it from the perspective of whether they are required to do so. I agree that the answer to the first question is yes, but that doesn't change the fact that the answer to the second question is no. They are providing a free, optional service to children. They can attach as many strings to it as they want. 

36 minutes ago, doodlebug said:

I realize that free musical education is a privilege and not a right; but it still saddens me that these so-called Christians attach such major strings to it.  Take a look at the website, listen to Jeremy and Jinger tout Swan.  They deliberately exclude or minimize the religious element (it's buried at the bottom of an inside page on the website).  If they were more upfront in telling their donors and especially their potential recipients that it isn't solely a music program; that it is a music AND religious training program; it would be fairer, IMO.  It would be no trouble for Jinger and Jer to add a sentence or two to their appeal for donors about the religious requirements.  There's no reason that the front page of the site, which ostensibly explains the nature of the charity and its goals shouldn't include their religious aims and training. too, especially since it is apparently mandatory in order obtain the musical training.  The way they bury the lead in the story makes me wonder just how up front they are with the kids and parents/guardians who join up.  It's dishonest and misleading, IMO.  Would they take a kid who wanted to do the religious stuff but not participate in the music?  What about a child who wants to learn music but doesn't want the religious indoctrination?  I have a feeling we all know the answer and it indicates to me that this is not a musical education charity with a religious slant but a religious education charity with a musical slant; and not really a charity at all.  Sneaky and underhanded, IMO.

I looked at the website and I see what you mean about burying the lede. I agree that the religious teaching should be publicized enough to ensure that potential volunteers and participants are aware of that aspect of the program before they sign up, and it is troubling that their website doesn't do that. I don't know that I would go as far as to say they are being sneaky and underhanded, though. I do think they are trying to play up the secular aspects of the program, which could be viewed as dishonest, but they aren't required to provide the religious information on their website at all. IMO if they were really being sneaky and underhanded they'd omit the information completely and just spring the religious stuff on the kids once they start the lessons. 

Edited by mynextmistake
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