Season 7: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[Alapaki]

8 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

He was acting Hand when Stannis was expected to attack Kings Landing.  You'd think he'd want to do something to minimize the chances of the city accidental blowing-up when Stannis attacked (that was, after all, his rationale, for taking over supervision of wildfire production from Cersei).

Even if he didn't have time for that while acting Hand, afterwards he was still on the Small Council for much of the time, as well as being the uncle of the King and son of the Hand.  He could have said something.  You'd think he -- and Jaime for that matter -- would want to make the Sept of Baelor as safe as possible for the Joffrey-Margaery wedding ceremony given how hated Joffrey and the Lannisters are.

This is from the Wiki of Ice and Fire:

Quote

When Tyrion asks why the wildfire doesn't seep into the clay pots, Hallyne explains that it does, and thus they have a lower vault full of pots from the reign of King Aerys II Targaryen, whose fancy it was to shape the jars like fruit. By rights, those jars should be destroyed, but so many of the guild's masters were killed during the Sack of King's Landing that they lack the skill and have flooded the vaults instead. Hallyne adds that the whereabouts of much of King Aerys's stock was also lost, such as a cache of two hundred jars discovered only last year under the Great Sept of Baelor. Hallyne admits this older stock can still be used, but urges extreme caution, since wildfire grows more volatile with age and will self-ignite if left in even direct sunlight for too long, causing it to expand violently and create a chain reaction among nearby jars.

So the Wildfire under the Great Sept wasn't a complete secret.  It may be attempting to remove it was deemed more dangerous than simply leaving it alone.  As long as it was kept closed off, everything would be okay.  They didn't contemplate someone using it, in place, as a WMD to destroy the Sept.

[SeanC]

1 minute ago, Alapaki said:

So the Wildfire under the Great Sept wasn't a complete secret.  It may be attempting to remove it was deemed more dangerous than simply leaving it alone.  As long as it was kept closed off, everything would be okay.  They didn't contemplate someone using it, in place, as a WMD to destroy the Sept.

That wildfire was taken by the pyromancers and used for Tyrion's wildfire ploy.  He never knew that there were casks of the stuff distributed at strategic points through the entire city as a deliberate plan to blow it all up.

Edited June 28, 2016 by SeanC

[previoususername]

Regardless of how you saw Sansa's glance to Baelish, of all the women who triumphed in the finale (Pyrrhic victories though they may be) Sansa is the only one of them who not only gained nothing, but lost out on the title and recognition she felt herself due. She is without land, without title, and without an army. She has been through too much and knows that a woman in her position must have one if not all of these things in order to survive. The doubts about Jon were there before Littlefinger ever stepped on the scene- her mother openly despised Jon, and Sansa is a great deal like Cat. I don't think we can ignore the cast and creator interviews when they are stating the coming rift in such clear language. We can argue how effectively it was conveyed, but to me, it was crystal.

A Stark v. Stark plot makes sense from a story point of view- next season isn't going to be all white walker prep up North, that'll be for the final season. If it is about the fight for Sansa's soul or whatever, with Jon on the one shoulder and Petyr on the other, I think the more interesting and dramatic path would be for Sansa to listen to the devil. As for Littlefinger, the very act of telling Sansa about his vision of what brings him closer to the thrones is... part of the vision that brings him closer to the throne. If he was being candid with Sansa, or at least as candid as he can be, the goals of the Iron Throne and Sansa are intertwined. The show has tied those two characters together pretty inextricably at this point; that storyline isn't going anywhere.

What will be interesting is if Littlefinger knows more about Jon's parentage and if he uses that as leverage with Jon. He hints as much in the crypts with Sansa back in season five, though it's not really rocket science to put R+L=J together. I guess the aftermath of the war disrupted so much that no one really paid all that much attention to honorable Ned coming home with a bastard baby and his dead sister's bones. There were a couple of handmaidens in the room with her, one possibly being the book character of Wylla. Unless they bring in Howland Reed, there may be a chance one of these women talked.

As for Cersei, I can see her teaming up with Euron Greyjoy, once he realizes Dany and the fleet have taken off for Westeros. Fuck, what a crazy match that would be. Imagine a sea battle with krakens and dragons as Dany's fleet takes on Euron's. Euron looks to be the big bad before the final war. I don't think they are rethinking his storyline as they seemed to do with Dorne.

All the characters that get the most frequent death specualtion- Cersei, Littlefinger, Jaime- are players to the end.

[Hanahope]

You’ll be sewing all through winter. When the spring thaw comes, they will find your body with a needle still locked tight between your frozen fingers."

Arya doesn't have to die for this to be a prophesy.  It could me that she's killing all through winter and by the time spring arrives, she won't or can't let Needle go, i.e. she'll always be a fighter/killer, she'll never be able to return to 'being a girl' or a noble lady.  She needs to follow in Brienne's footsteps.

She also doesn't have to finish the list on her own.  She didn't kill Joffrey, but he was still taken off her list.  While one can see her able to kill Walder Frey, its a little hard to envision her killing the Mountain (I expect his death either due to a duel with Grey Worm, or a douse of dragon fire).  I expect that her kills of Trant and Frey have satisfied her, at least for the moment, and she'll want to return to WF, hearing about Jon and Sansa.  But she'll run into Mel and maybe BWOB which will side-track her, at least for a while.  I do hope we see her meet up with Nymeria, who's become as wild as she.

I hope we get a confrontation between Tyrion and Ellaria.  While he may have heard about Myrcella's death and that Dorne was blamed, he may know the exact details or that Ellaria herself did it.  I'd like to think that Tryion is not a forgive and forget kind of person when it comes to his niece, even if he hates Cersie.    

[Hana Chan]

39 minutes ago, previoususername said:

Regardless of how you saw Sansa's glance to Baelish, of all the women who triumphed in the finale (Pyrrhic victories though they may be) Sansa is the only one of them who not only gained nothing, but lost out on the title and recognition she felt herself due. She is without land, without title, and without an army. She has been through too much and knows that a woman in her position must have one if not all of these things in order to survive. The doubts about Jon were there before Littlefinger ever stepped on the scene- her mother openly despised Jon, and Sansa is a great deal like Cat. I don't think we can ignore the cast and creator interviews when they are stating the coming rift in such clear language. We can argue how effectively it was conveyed, but to me, it was crystal.

Except that Jon wasn't the one who sold her to Ramsey Bolton. Littlefinger did, and she suffered horrifically as a result. Thus far, Jon has done nothing but protect her and put his life on the line to liberate her home and try to save one of her remaining siblings. Why she would be doubting Jon's promise to protect her makes no sense to me.

I like to think that Sansa has learned a hard and painful lesson about how she had behaved in the past and that her words to Jon - that he was a Stark in her eyes and that she was regretful over how she'd treated him - were sincere. That would show some real and hard won character growth. Desiring to be queen would shift her right back to her season one self where she ignored all kinds of red flag about Joffrey because she was so caught up in her dreams of being a princess in a big castle.

[Hecate7]

On 6/26/2016 at 10:29 PM, benteen said:

Cersei's REALLY going to need Euron's magic horn (and that's not a dick joke).  As I mentioned earlier, I expect she'll hire the Second Sons too.  And I assume she'll have a lot of Wildfire left.  But who does she have backing her right now?  Casterly Rock and perhaps the Storm Lands.

Perfect for a Pincher move if need be.

[previoususername]

Quote

Why she would be doubting Jon's promise to protect her makes no sense to me.

Nearly every person Sansa has trusted in the last six seasons-- save perhaps Brienne, has either betrayed her or failed her. There is a cost to trauma, and that cost for Sansa is a lack of faith in those professing to protect her. She said it herself, to Jon of all people: "No one can protect me. No one can protect anyone." It may not be a rational response, but it is a very understandable one. And, though we can debate, Jon did NOT listen to Sansa before the battle when she warned him about Ramsay. She may see that as yet another reason to have doubts about Jon. Not all slights are maliciously meant and Jon is remarkably obtuse and naive when it comes to understanding motivations that are not wholly straightforward. They spell this out in the video quite well, I thought.

I'm not sure Sansa desires to be queen, but I think you would agree the meaning of "being queen" has changed irrevocably for her from how she envisioned it back in season one-- Cersei changed that, Joffrey changed that, her time in King's Landing changed that. Clearly Sansa doesn't see it as a fairy tale.

However, if Sansa sees being queen (or Lady of Winterfell, or whatever) as a path to gaining control over her life, to put her in a place where she has a voice in her own fate and can take on those who wronged her, then absolutely I can see the appeal for her.

Edited June 28, 2016 by previoususername

[SeanC]

I posted earlier about how King's Landing is one of the three major locations the show has been narrowed down to, along with Winterfell and Dany's traveling posse (presumably soon to include Olenna, Ellaria et al.), but as I was thinking about it further:  man, King's Landing has been utterly depopulated, character-wise, to the point where in those terms it barely qualifies as a major location.  The finale killed three regulars (Margaery, Tommen, the High Sparrow) and killed or neutralized almost all the recurring ones (Mace, Loras, Kevan, Lancel, Pycelle, Unella -- not dead, but we're unlikely to see her again).  As of the finale there are only four characters left with names:  Cersei, Jaime, Bronn, and Qyburn (Gregor has a name, but he's not really a character).

And of those, it would be grossly out of character if Bronn didn't haul ass to Tyrion and Dany the second he hears about them landing.  Actually, even that might be waiting too long; one look at Cersei's coronation and the smoking crater where the Sept of Baelor would probably be enough to signal it's time to be elsewhere.

Edited June 28, 2016 by SeanC

[bluvelvet]

I really hope we get a confrontation with Tyrion and Ellaria over Myrcella's death next season. 

[paigow]

3 hours ago, Hecate7 said:

Perfect for a Pincher move if need be.

The Second Sons are mercenaries that will refuse suicide missions.  

Cersei: I want to hire you.

Darrio: I work for the Mother Of Dragons to police Mereen.

Cersei: I want you to kill her.

Darrio: I'm full of self pity, but I'm not stupid. One Word - Dragons. 

[kittykat]

On 6/27/2016 at 1:08 PM, SeanC said:

Other than natural causes, how would Olenna die?

My theory (or wish I should say) would be that Olenna's health starts failing in S7; causes would be part aging part depression over the murder of her family.  Someone on Team Dany or Jaime kills Cersei.  Once she gets this news she dies peacefully knowing she outlived the conniving Queen of Batshit.

As far as new Series Regulars go.  I put my vote for Gemma Whelan, Jacob Anderson, and Anton Lesser in the Most Likely category.  I'll add Ellie Kendrick since I'm kind of surprised she wasn't made one this year.  Maybes would be Daniel Portman, Ben Crompton and Bella Ramsay.  Longshots would be Tim McInnerney (if they expand Lord Robett's character since he's now Pro-Stark), Keisha Castle-Hughes or the other Sands (since for now they're here to stay). 

Cersei needs to make new alliances and NOW.  She has maybe the Stormlands and the Westerlands.  She definitely does NOT have the North, the Vale and Dorne.  The Riverlands are in shambles so her best bet would be to fix things there.  Perhaps release Edmure and re-grant the lands and titles of Riverrun on conditions that he bends the knee and not take up arms with the North.  There is also the question of who inherits the Twins.  With Walder, Black Walder and Lothor dead, they have not specified (in the show at least) who would succeed (new character to be introduced?  Ser Emmon maybe?)

The Iron Islands are divided.  I know a few upthread have said Euron is a likely ally.  I could see this but it wouldn't be a smooth alliance, Euron wants to rule and going directly to Cersei would streamline that process but Cersei would make it clear who was really in charge and Euron does not sow!  Euron could also be the catalyst to the Sibling Breach we've been waiting for.

This leaves the Reach.  With Olenna the only surviving Tyrell, Cersei's main objective should be to find a new Lord Protector of the Reach that would swear fealty to the Iron Throne.  In the books that would be House Florent, who was sworn to Stannis but would turn if it meant Brightwater Keep became the new seat of the Reach.  But since the Florents haven't featured prominently on the show, it wouldn't be prudent to introduce a New House so late in the series.  The most likely successor show-wise would be Randyll Tarly.  The introduction to them mid S6 and Sam stealing Heartsbane means we haven't seen the last of them and Oldtown could possibly be the eyes of everything going down in the Reach especially if Olenna attempts to call the banners it could leave that region conflicted.  In reality that kingdom should be outraged that Cersei in one stroke murdered their universally beloved rulers but may bend the knee by fear.  And given the way the North acted toward the Starks pre-BOTB, I don't foresee a The Reach Remembers type of story line.

This is of course all banking on Cersei acting and ruling in a sane and rational manner so...none of the above will probably occur.

And then there's Littlefinger.  I think his death will come but it won't happen until the Starks learn of his betrayal of Ned which could be three possible scenarios...

1.  Sandor ends up at Winterfell and, having been in the throne room when Ned was arrested, can reveal his true role.

2.  Cersei sends a raven north to Sansa revealing said betrayal hoping to create tension, which it would (reminiscent of Tywin sending Jorah a pardon with the indication that Dany would find out about spying, which she did)

3. Bran has an Intersect flash of LF's "I told you not to trust me."

[benteen]

I could see Randyll not liking this particularly version of the Tyrell family and maybe not being so upset about what Cersei did to them.

Cersei and Euron would be a logical alliance but they are both too illogical and irrational people.  Both would be looking to betray the other when the time is right.  Maybe even when the time isn't right.

[Funzlerks]

Might The Iron Bank and some Free Cities pitch in for Cersei.  They established that there is at least some popular support for her abroad.  She owes The Iron Bank a ton of money as a Lannister, Queen of Westeros, and heir to the Baratheons.  The bank is going to want its money and if Daenerys conquers everything, she is going to tell them to go to hell she doesn't owe them anything.  Cersei has to win for The Iron Bank to get paid.  And those bankers are so not going to care about zombies.

 

I am now at a point where I am not sure what will fill 13 episodes at the current pace, so there must be an Act III new wrinkle introduced.

Edited June 29, 2016 by Funzlerks

[SeanC]

I really can't imagine Tarly betraying the Tyrells in this particular canon, for the very simple reason that any rational observer would be able to see that Cersei is utterly screwed, and signing on with her is like buying a ticket on the Titanic after it starts sinking.  Like, maybe Lord Tarly's sexism would mean he's not terribly well-disposed toward being ruled by Dany, but Cersei is a woman too, so no help in that regard.

Indeed, I can't imagine Cersei making any meaningful new allies other than somebody like Euron, who is deluded and already on the outs with Dany.

[FemmyV]

9 hours ago, previoususername said:

As for Littlefinger, the very act of telling Sansa about his vision of what brings him closer to the thrones is... part of the vision that brings him closer to the throne. If he was being candid with Sansa, or at least as candid as he can be, the goals of the Iron Throne and Sansa are intertwined. The show has tied those two characters together pretty inextricably at this point; that storyline isn't going anywhere.

People make the mistake of thinking con men — confidence men — operate by getting you to take them into your confidence. That's wrong. The con operates by taking the victim into the predator's confidence, ie, "You can't tell anyone, but ..." You can't tell anyone, but some day I want to sit on the Iron Throne. Sansa is right to not trust Baelish, and she is only a revelation (that being, his role in getting Ned killed) away from turning the tables on him.

[glowbug]

8 hours ago, SeanC said:

And of those, it would be grossly out of character if Bronn didn't haul ass to Tyrion and Dany the second he hears about them landing.  Actually, even that might be waiting too long; one look at Cersei's coronation and the smoking crater where the Sept of Baelor would probably be enough to signal it's time to be elsewhere.

This might have to happen if they want to keep the character around since Lena Heady and Jerome Flynn apparently can't film together. Otherwise he's going to have to go missing again or be written out of the series. 

[Umbelina]

Why can't they film together?

[Fable]

1 minute ago, Umbelina said:

 

Why can't they film together?

 

Apparently they are a former couple and don't get along well.  

[ElizaD]

HBO confirmed that Rhaegar is the father but it doesn't seem to be clear to non-readers. Will the show cast Rhaegar, or simply have Bran explain things when he leaves the Wall and meets Jon, or wait until Jon meets Dany's dragons and everyone's shocked that they really really like him? I'd guess that the dragon shock twist will be the moment when R+L=J is explicitly spelled out, but I'd love to see the Lyanna actress brought back for a quick vision with Rhaegar.

[Spartan Girl]

I really hope Sansa finds out that Littlefinger was the one that sold Ned out. Ghost needs to maul somebody next season, and since he was deprived of Olly and Ramsey, I think Littlefinger is the perfect candidate.

I'd be happy if the dragons come to Westeros in the season finale. And what about Jorah? Think he'll show up for the epic battle?

Edited June 29, 2016 by Spartan Girl

[Oscirus]

They made sure to mention Rhaegar's name quite a bit in the previouslies. I imagine the most we'll hear about Rhaegar from here on out is that he wasn't a rapist.

I  assume that Bran  vision of the dragon flying over King's landing is a future shot. But which dragon is it? The owner of that dragon is probably going to be the final king/queen.

I also think that Dany falls into trouble next season and she's saved at the last moment by... Jorah.

Final bit of spec for tonight, Cersei's death comes with all the Lannisters in the same room and Jamie's forced to pick between Tyrion and Cersei.

[Hecate7]

11 hours ago, paigow said:

The Second Sons are mercenaries that will refuse suicide missions.  

Cersei: I want to hire you.

Darrio: I work for the Mother Of Dragons to police Mereen.

Cersei: I want you to kill her.

Darrio: I'm full of self pity, but I'm not stupid. One Word - Dragons. 

A Pincher, or pincer, move, is when one army divides itself in two directions in order to close in on and trap or surround another army. Landing half her forces on Casterly Rock and half at Dragonstone woud ideally position Danaerys to take King's Landing, if nothing else. I'm not sure what Daario would be doing all that time, but I like your scenario.

[paigow]

9 hours ago, Funzlerks said:

Might The Iron Bank and some Free Cities pitch in for Cersei.  They established that there is at least some popular support for her abroad.  She owes The Iron Bank a ton of money as a Lannister, Queen of Westeros, and heir to the Baratheons.  The bank is going to want its money and if Daenerys conquers everything, she is going to tell them to go to hell she doesn't owe them anything.  Cersei has to win for The Iron Bank to get paid.  And those bankers are so not going to care about zombies.

 

If the Iron Bank has a half decent spy network, it knows that Dany conquered Slavers Bay with dragons. Backing a hopelessly outnumbered and outmatched Cersei makes no sense.  

[benteen]

6 hours ago, Fable said:

Apparently they are a former couple and don't get along well.  

I suspect this is true because they've never had a scene together.  Granted, they never had a scene together in the books but you would think the show would have put them together in a least one scene by this point.

[scottiB]

Season 7 directors announced:

http://watchersonthewall.com/season-7-directors-announced/

Unfortunately, no Miguel Sapochnik, but Alan Taylor returns.

Edited June 29, 2016 by scottiB

[Eyes High]

I'm wondering whether Sapochnik begged off after the ordeal of filming the BOTB.

[YaddaYadda]

On 6/27/2016 at 6:41 AM, CofCinci said:

We share the same interpretation.  Sansa was happy that Jon is KITN, but then it turned to dread when she realized that Jon is in the middle of LF's crosshairs.  She knows first-hand what LF is capable of when it comes to getting what he wants.  Jon is in the way of LF's goal.

There's one thing that happened last time Sansa had a brother named KITN. He was murdered, her mother was murdered too. Their bodies were desecrated. She sat Joffrey and Margery's wedding feast, and watched a play mocking Robb's death. I can't imagine that this isn't something that crossed her mind. As far as she knows, Jon is the only brother left to her. Robb was in the crosshairs of the Lannisters first and foremost, and he died for it. 

Plus Sansa knows that LF had Jon Arryn killed. She was there when Lysa lost her shit. Jon Arryn's death is what brought everything tumbling down. She has seen LF in action. He will kill if he has to. And like you said, Jon is standing in his way.

So yeah, there may be some tension between Jon and Sansa going forward, but I don't think it will have anything to do with him being the KITN, especially since he seems to be uncertain. 

What kind of worries, I guess, is that in Feast for Crows, Cersei wanted to have Jon removed as Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. She was plotting with Qyburn to have him murdered, and now LF at Winterfell, and LF plays his own game. He is a strategist, and he will go crawling back to Cersei if it benefits him. 

On 6/27/2016 at 9:07 PM, benteen said:

Gendry.  Forever rowing.

I wouldn't be surprised if him and Arya also cross paths next season.

Maybe he bumps into Brienne and Pod since everyone is rowing to get somewhere.

I just wanna talk about Varys for a second. I've been wondering since the first book how much Varys knows about Jon, and even more so since he came out as a Targaryen loyalist, and someone who has been working on restoring them. I just keep thinking back on the scene he had with Ned after he was arrested, and thrown in the dungeon, when he told him he would be allowed to take the black, and join his bastard at the wall. It might be insignificant, but it might also be very significant in the sense that putting Ned there gives Jon more protection. I just remember thinking that Varys probably knows Jon's true origins. He had Dany (and Viserys) in Pentos, and Jon at the wall, and if one plan went to hell (like it did with Viserys), he had a second one ready to go, and a 3rd one even. 

I would not be surprised if he proposes a Dany/Jon alliance to stack the deck, and no one would even have to know anything about Jon or need to know anything about him other than he's the king in the north. I find it really interesting that Dany is now surrounded with people who knew Ned Stark well enough, Tyrion who spent time with Jon at the wall, Theon who grew up with him, people that can vouch for his character.

And that brings me to Mel who is going South. I'm sure she will run into Arya and the Brotherhood without Banners, and we know those guys are headed North because of what's coming with the white walkers. 

What I'm really interested in finding out is whether Kinvara has gone to Westeros with Dany & Co as well. I can only imagine the conversation between Mel and Kinvara would have. She's the prince that was promised! No he is! No she is! The fire said...your fire is wrong! No, your fire is wrong!

[Hana Chan]

Rather disheartening to see that it does appear that they're going to turn Sansa again Jon and go the jealous "I should be queen" route. Disappointing because I was liking this new closeness between Jon and Sansa and Jon is sincere in his desire to protect her. But it's problematic because Jon has expressed very clearly that the North has to unify to fight the White Walkers and while I'm sure that after being disregarded his entire life as a bastard, this kind of affirmation is very satisfying, his primary reason for accepting at all is to deal with the WWs. Sansa seeking the titles herself is about her own elevation and not what might be best for the North.

Here's hoping that she gets a major wake-up call and this idiocy doesn't last too long (or is a ruse to throw Littlefinger off balance).

[Constantinople]

13 hours ago, SeanC said:

I really can't imagine Tarly betraying the Tyrells in this particular canon, for the very simple reason that any rational observer would be able to see that Cersei is utterly screwed, and signing on with her is like buying a ticket on the Titanic after it starts sinking.  Like, maybe Lord Tarly's sexism would mean he's not terribly well-disposed toward being ruled by Dany, but Cersei is a woman too, so no help in that regard.

I agree. Plus, I don't see what Cersei could offer that Tarly couldn't take for himself (at least until Dany shows up).

And now I'm wondering if Sam & Gilly become the Lord and Lady of The Reach after the Walkers are defeated and the Night's Watch is dissolved and its former members released from their vows (Note: I'm not saying this will happen, either in the show or in the books, or that I want it to happen; only that it could happen).

[scottiB]

13 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

Here's hoping that she gets a major wake-up call and this idiocy doesn't last too long (or is a ruse to throw Littlefinger off balance).

Agree fully with your entire post. Jon needs to send Sansa, Cerwyn, Glover, Manderly, et al to The Wall for a 6 week bootcamp. Have Bran fetch Benjen and lay it all out for them. One sight of a wight or a White Walker (or Benjen even) will put everyone on the same page and render LF's machinations petty and meaningless. With 13 episodes left, I'll be pissed if we waste time with some conjured drama between siblings/cousins. Winter is here mothertruckers, and Jon KNOWS what that means.

[SeanC]

30 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

Plus Sansa knows that LF had Jon Arryn killed. She was there when Lysa lost her shit. Jon Arryn's death is what brought everything tumbling down. She has seen LF in action. He will kill if he has to. And like you said, Jon is standing in his way.

Sansa doesn't know that in the show.  They changed what Lysa said to make it more ambiguous, as D&D noted in the Inside the Episode video, that she probably doesn't put together what Lysa's saying.

[YaddaYadda]

5 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Sansa doesn't know that in the show.  They changed what Lysa said to make it more ambiguous, as D&D noted in the Inside the Episode video, that she probably doesn't put together what Lysa's saying.

Damn it! Everything is muddled. Books, series...blergh! Hopefully she's been around him long enough to be able to put two and two together.

Edited June 29, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[jjjmoss]

# of episodes by director:
Taylor 6 (1 & 2), 7 or 8 presumably
Graves 6 (3 & 4)
Nutter 6 (2, 3, 5)
Minahan 5 (1 & 2)
Mylod 4 (5 & 6), 5 or 6 presumably
Podeswa 4 (5 & 6), 5 or 6 presumably
Sapochnik 4 (5 & 6)
Sakharov 4 (2, 3, 4)
MacLaren 4 (3 & 4)

[Eyes High]

Sophie Turner to the Hollywood Reporter about that last scene, LF and Sansa:

Q: What is Sansa thinking about Littlefinger's pitch by the end of the episode?

A: As you say, she rejects him in the beginning, but there's definitely something in her that's… it's kind of a jealousy toward Jon. He's getting all of the credit for basically Sansa saving his ass. Obviously he played a huge part in the Battle of the Bastards, but Sansa really saved him. There's a bit of jealousy there. She looks at Littlefinger knowing that he would have put her as Queen in the North, and given her the credit she deserves. I don't think she's gunning for the Iron Throne anytime soon, but she realizes that Littlefinger might be a better ally than she thought, a more trustworthy ally than she thought.

Q: Can Sansa actually trust Littlefinger, or would their working relationship be skeptical at best?

A: Yes, I think she'll forever be wary of Littlefinger. But I think she realizes now that he's more loyal to her than she initially thought. He's tried to prove that. If he truly is loyal to her, then he's a wonderful, wonderful ally to have. But she'll forever be skeptical and wary of his motives. She's not stupid enough to follow him blindly.

[SeanC]

The show's SDCC panel on July 22nd has been announced.  D&D are going, which they didn't last year (I can't remember about if they were there for all the earlier ones), along with Miguel Sapochnik.  The cast delegation is a lot less starry than previous years, with Sophie Turner probably the biggest of the bunch, along with Liam Cunningham, Isaac Hempstead Wright (his first SDCC appearance for the show), John Bradley, Nathalie Emmanuel, Conleth Hill, Iwan Rheon, Kristian Nairn and Faye Marsay.  Based on past panels, one shouldn't expect to hear much of anything, though the producers may perhaps drop some hints.

Peter Dinklage always looks like he'd rather be having his teeth pulled during promo, so it's not surprising he's passing on this again, but no Lannisters period, plus no Emilia Clarke, Kit Harington, or Maisie Williams.  I imagine some of them may have other jobs to do.

[Hanahope]

I think its interesting that Rhaegar's Targaryn genes combined with the swarthy Martell genes still produced white-haired children, yet with Stark genes (white skin, dark brown hair), a Stark "clone" was produced, not a white-haired child.  So Stark genes are stronger than Targaryn genes?

[SeanC]

2 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

I think its interesting that Rhaegar's Targaryn genes combined with the swarthy Martell genes still produced white-haired children, yet with Stark genes (white skin, dark brown hair), a Stark "clone" was produced, not a white-haired child.  So Stark genes are stronger than Targaryn genes?

Of Rhaegar's two children with Elia, one looked like a Targaryen (Aegon) while the other looked like a Martell (Rhaenys).  GRRM-genetics is mostly variable like that.

[Hanahope]

Ah, I thought they both had the white hair.

[Advance35]

With regards to the ST HR article, would they split characters up again?  I mean if Sansa decides she is going to move on from Winterfell and that she wants to pursue power or be in a position of influence would the writers have she and LF split off from Jon's group and find a new power-base or would that be to backwards, after everything, having LF and Sansa return to the Vale?

[amandawoods]

Does anyone have any spec about Bran needing to warg the dragons?  There was a line about him being able to fly a couple of seasons ago.  I can really only see the need if Dany is not around anymore, since it seems like Drogon takes commands pretty well.  

[benteen]

3 hours ago, scottiB said:

Season 7 directors announced:

http://watchersonthewall.com/season-7-directors-announced/

Unfortunately, no Miguel Sapochnik, but Alan Taylor returns.

That's too bad about Miguel Sapochnik not returning but I'm thrilled that Alan Taylor will be, with some movie directing experience now under his belt.  Only four directors which further confirms the reduced episode count.

[bunnyblue]

3 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

Rather disheartening to see that it does appear that they're going to turn Sansa again Jon and go the jealous "I should be queen" route. Disappointing because I was liking this new closeness between Jon and Sansa and Jon is sincere in his desire to protect her. But it's problematic because Jon has expressed very clearly that the North has to unify to fight the White Walkers and while I'm sure that after being disregarded his entire life as a bastard, this kind of affirmation is very satisfying, his primary reason for accepting at all is to deal with the WWs. Sansa seeking the titles herself is about her own elevation and not what might be best for the North.

Here's hoping that she gets a major wake-up call and this idiocy doesn't last too long (or is a ruse to throw Littlefinger off balance).

Yeah, it certainly looks like it will be Sansa/LF vs Jon, not Jon/Sansa vs LF as some are speculating. Not only have the producers and actors spelled it out, but thinking back on the season, I can see where this sense of entitlement was being set up . Sansa was adamant in her belief that having the Stark name would win them allies, "People will still risk everything for it". She thought the Tullys would back them "without question". She tried to play the Stark card with Lord Glover but he wasn't having any of it. I think that this way of thinking is a result of spending so many years in the South. And with Littlefinger whispering in her ear about "half brother" and "bastard", I can see where her resentment about Jon's rise to power will continue to grow.

What I find so annoying at the prospect of S7 being LF/Sansa vs Jon is that it's bringing something that I've always hated about South ("playing the game") to the Northern storyline. My hope is that whatever little games LF and Sansa play will come to an end as soon as Bran makes it to Winterfell. Jon & Bran see the big picture and will be fighting to save humanity; Sansa is fighting for what she thinks she is owed. There will be a loser in this family squabble and it's not going to be the ones with altruistic intentions. And if Arya shows up and sees anyone conspiring against Jon, I think there will be some Baelish pie in Sansa's future.

Edited June 29, 2016 by bunnyblue

[sacrebleu]

Quote

Show Jamie and book Jamie are so very different, who knows?  He killed another ruler for threatening the use of wildfire.  I think the show can't play the absolute love Jamie has always felt for his sister well, so they will probably not capture the heartbreak of him killing her half as well as the books will, but still?  I hope he's the one to kill her.  I just hope FOR ONCE the writers give him a good speech that shows his tragic journey.

Yeah, I'm pretty convinced that Jamie will be the one to take out Cersei-- to bookend his killing of the Mad King. 

[InsertWordHere]

The Stark genes didn't stand up to the Tully genes in 4 out of 5 cases, so they can't be that strong. Robert Arryn doesn't have the Tully look, so it would seem the Tully genes themselves aren't always dominate. I think it's only the Baratheons that have such strong looks passed down through generations. There were plenty of dark haired Targs.

[benteen]

The only way that Sansa can truly believe that Littlefinger is a more trusting and better ally is if she wants power.  At that point, she is truly lost.

In terms of playing the game, LF is one of the best allies you can have.  But trusting him more than Jon?  Really?  She really believes that LF has her best interests at heart and not Jon?  LF is only loyal to her because he was obsessed with his mother.  His obsession with her is as unhealthy as Jaime's obsession with Cersei.

She saved Jon's ass but could have done that sooner if she didn't withhold vital information from him.

I tend to agree that if Sansa continues to "break bad" on the show, it will be Arya's role in the story to finish her off and kill Baelish, avenging her father.

Edited June 29, 2016 by benteen

[huahaha]

42 minutes ago, benteen said:

In terms of playing the game, LF is one of the best allies you can have. 

Is that true, though? I'm trying to think of someone who's benefited from allying with Littlefinger. Catelyn asked for his help, and he orchestrated her husband's death. Lysa married him, and he threw her to her death. Sansa stood up for him after that, and he sold her to the Boltons. He made an alliance with the Lannisters but just pledged for House Stark (and was the key figure in helping them regain their house).

LF seems to have some respect for Varys, but I think that's because Varys was never actively in his way.

Reading my post back, I realized you could sum up all of Littlefinger's motivation as: Has issues with Tully women. Maybe Arya should be the one to take him out.

Edited June 29, 2016 by huahaha

[amandawoods]

There is no way that Arya is going to kill Baelish.  Sansa is pretty much guaranteed to finish Littlefinger after finding out about Ned. I think that Baelish will prob be dead before Bran or Arya even get to Winterfell.  I think the first few episodes Sansa's character will be ambiguous about what side she's actually on, but it will always be her families side.  I think that will probably happen in the books too.  I'm not going to put much stock into the post finale interviews.  These are the same people that said at the end of season 4 that Sansa is in control of her life...then season 5 happened.  

Any spec on Arya heading north or south?  Is she going to meet up with Mel/Sandor/Brotherhood.  I always thought her last two kills; Cersei and Mountain would be accomplished by Jamie and Sandor.  

Edited June 29, 2016 by amandawoods

[Hana Chan]

What's interesting is that Jon seems to be a bit ambivalent about the whole KITN thing. I think that while he's got to be feeling some satisfaction at being accepted as a leader when all his life he was looked down upon by all these lords now cheering him, his focus is more about the coming war with the Night King. He sees this as a means to an end and isn't really about him. Sansa, OTOH, sees this about her own validation. That she wants the recognition for her efforts against the Boltons (which Jon has already expressed), and her right as a trueborn Stark. Sansa going after the titles against Jon means dividing the North against the coming threat, and wanting it for herself just comes across as very selfish and self-indulgent. Given the stakes, it's hard to see her motivations as anything but selfish and counterproductive.

Edited June 29, 2016 by Hana Chan

[Jazzy24]

16 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

What's interesting is that Jon seems to be a bit ambivalent about the whole KITN thing. I think that while he's got to be feeling some satisfaction at being accepted as a leader when all his life he was looked down upon by all these lords now cheering him, his focus is more about the coming war with the Night King. He sees this as a means to an end and isn't really about him. Sansa, OTOH, sees this about her own validation. That she wants the recognition for her efforts against the Boltons (which Jon has already expressed), and her right as a trueborn Stark. Sansa going after the titles against Jon means dividing the North against the coming threat, and wanting it for herself just comes across as very selfish and self-indulgent. Given the stakes, it's hard to see her motivations as anything but selfish and counterproductive.

I blame D&D. They think people want to see drama, nudity, violence, and mayhem without no rhyme or reason. 

After all these years we finally get the Stark siblings reuniting after countless Lannister scenes, the Starks taking multiple hits and now they give us conflict after having some Starks reunite. Keeping Winterfell and unifying the north and finding Bran and Arya should be their main concern. Yet D&D puts Littlfinger in Winterfell to create drama between the Starks just for shock effect and them wanting to drag out the show. It's beyond ridiculous. 

[polyhymnia]

I would think that unless Dany attacks King's Landing pretty quickly, Cersei's main problem will be starvation.  She doesn't care about the smallfolk (or the nobles, or her own children, or her brother) but folks have to eat and the Reach cutting off the food supply would be an obvious move.  Also, the High Sparrow's death could provoke some sort of peasant revolt (not within King's Landing, but possibly in other regions) - he seemed to think he could shut down production pretty quickly and convinced Olenna that it wasn't a bluff.

I hope that somehow Cersei learns that it was Olenna that poisoned her precious Joffrey.  Sansa knows, Littlefinger knows, Varys undoubtedly knows at least by now.  KL was fairly boring this season (until the last episode) so I really hope they can wrap up her mad reign quickly, but as they are in love with Lena's performance, it will probably get drawn out for the whole next season.