S06.E05: The Door

[Oscirus]

11 minutes ago, nksarmi said:

Yeah and now that you mention it - there's the whole bit about LF knowing the kinds of things some men are into. Maybe he just spent too long watching men do it to whores that he assumes lords know better than to treat ladies like that?

Well that and if he cared, he'd probably assume that Ramsay wouldn't dare treat Sansa Stark bad in Winterfell.

Edited May 24, 2016 by Oscirus

[WearyTraveler]

32 minutes ago, KarenTargaryen said:

Littlefinger said the Vale troops were camped at Moat Caitlen.  Don't the Boltons have control of Moat Caitlen.

 

27 minutes ago, DigitalCount said:

I'd assume they had to withdraw to take on Stannis, though it's such an important outpost that one would assume they'd leave some men to guard it. 

The Boltons have no reason to think LF will betray them.  LF told Roose his plans to get Cersei's approval to move the Vale army North, didn't he? So, if there was a small force holding Moat Cailin, the Boltons might have just opened the gates and let LF and the Knigts of the Vale through.

3 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Well that and he probably assumed that Ramsay wouldn't dare treat Sansa Stark like that in Winterfell.

Yes, I get the feeling that any highborn pervert would use a brothel to indulge his darker side, not his Lady.  Obviously there are exceptions, but I think in LF's experience, that's what whores were for, and Sansa is no whore.

Edited May 24, 2016 by WearyTraveler

[SeanC]

3 minutes ago, WearyTraveler said:

LF told Roose his plans to get Cersei's approval to move the Vale army North, didn't he

Not that we saw.

[WearyTraveler]

Just now, SeanC said:

Not that we saw.

Wasn't there a scene with Roose and Petyr talking about some messages that came from Cersei when he was at WF? Roose read the messages and read LF's  reply before sending it on.  I don't remember the exact dialog, but I thought Roose and LF had agreed that they'd work together.

[SeanC]

2 minutes ago, WearyTraveler said:

Wasn't there a scene with Roose and Petyr talking about some messages that came from Cersei when he was at WF? Roose read the messages and read LF's  reply before sending it on.  I don't remember the exact dialog, but I thought Roose and LF had agreed that they'd work together.

They talked about working together, but Littlefinger never said anything about bringing an army north, and the Boltons have never mentioned it since.

[LadyArcadia]

On 5/23/2016 at 10:46 PM, WatchrTina said:

Well . . . shit.

Damn it!  Seeing this repeated made me laugh out loud... at work.

Well played.

[WearyTraveler]

21 minutes ago, SeanC said:

They talked about working together, but Littlefinger never said anything about bringing an army north, and the Boltons have never mentioned it since.

Then there's still no reason why the Boltons would doubt LF.  He could say he's brought the army to help them get Sansa back.

[SeanC]

Just now, WearyTraveler said:

Then there's still no reason why the Boltons would doubt LF.  He could say he's brought the army to help them get Sansa back.

Which they'd be fools to believe, seeing as Sansa is his ally.

[Chris24601]

24 minutes ago, stagmania said:

This is where I'm at with it. Bran had no way of knowing exactly what would happen if he wandered on his own, but he did know he wasn't supposed to. Does that make him a terrible or unsympathetic person? No, of course not. Does it make him accountable for what happened? Yes, to a certain extent it does. And if him crossing past the wall with the Night King's mark is what ultimately leads to the white walker invasion, he has some culpability, whether he meant to do it or not. I think that given who Bran is, he would absolutely feel the burden of guilt and shame and seek out whatever redemption he can in helping to defeat them.

If this theory does actually turn out to be true, then I think it will also explain why he wouldn't seek to usurp Jon and/or Sansa as the ruler in the North despite being the eldest trueborn male. His guilt would eliminate him from contention in his mind.

One other thing I noticed too is that Bran didn't wake up from his Greenseeing. Is it possible he'll actually remain in that state; seeing additional visions and possibly playing an additional role on past events for the rest of the season? Might explain the trailer shot that looks like its Jaime stabbing the Mad King and that we still need the second half of the Tower of Joy if so.

That would suck for Meera though cause she'll have to lug his unconscious ass all the way back to the Wall... but IF the White Walkers WANT Bran to go through the Wall at least that would explain how she's able to make it back despite the Walkers likely being on her trail (the Walkers just need to keep the pressure on so she doesn't have time to think about why they aren't just overwhelming her).

[Alapaki]

Allies or not, Roose is no way allowing anyone to bring an outside army in unless he asks for it specifically.

it may be that the Boltons figured that there was no immediate risk of invasion from the South and so they abandoned or under-manned Moat Cailin.  Or Littlefinger was able to bribe whomever they left in charge.

[lmsweb]

This is the scene with Ramsay, Roose and Petyr. I rewatched it just to get a feel again for 1) if Petyr knew about Ramsay and 2) what was said about the Eyrie backing the Boltons. I'm leaning more towards Petyr not knowing just how bad Ramsay was going to be.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dcs4lnXebY

[Raachel2008]

3 hours ago, stillshimpy said:

 

But I digress (ya think?) and the show never has been particularly skilled at understanding that being guided by better impulses and moral choices is not actually the land walked only by the perpetually dim and simplistic. Brienne's objection to backing Stannis actually had to do with murdering Renly via dark arts, so it wasn't quite about rightful claims, but rather "I distrust those that would choose that". The show runners have always confused an adherence to honor with a lack of wits. I was both relieved and astounded that page Ned was not an idiot. He just didn't understand a complete lack of inherent decency as an animating force.  

I can't tell if the makers of the show are unable to convey a person who is moral, without being self-righteous, or if they don't trust that audiences can sus out the difference. Then I think about the Flash of Warty Willy and know that people spending time and effort on that scene must think that is what audiences think is funny. The spirit of Tosh.0 is apparently with them. 

 

Just saying I don't think the show's lack of balance is solely about the story and it isn't solely about the source material either. Or even the "look how daring we're being!" We equate dark, gritty drama with narrative merit  maybe because it is a fairly recent trend in tv to be allowed to have drama not forcibly leavened by regularly scheduled insertions of mirth.  HBO in particular made their dramatic series bones on dark drama (there was still humor in The Wire) and they seemed to have embraced the "if some is good, then surely a metric fuck ton is better!"  I'm just not as convinced that these choices are solely evidence of anything to do with the show runners or writer (Delorous Ed in the books is hilarious, regularly) but rather the network. 

 

Sorry, but Brienne's objection to backing Stannis has always been mainly because Stannis mudered Renly, period. She wouldn't have backed Stannis if, say, he had killed Renly in a fair duel either, even though Stannis was the true heir of throne, not Renly, never never never Renly. Brienne's loyal to a fault, that's her biggest quality and her biggest problem; we saw that with Renly, Catelyn and you bet we'll see that with Sansa one way or another. That's who Brienne is, among other nice things, and it works for her and against her equally.

I also don't agree that the show runners have always confused an adherence to honor with a lack of wits. Look at Jon. Look at Tyrion. Look at Davos. Look at Danaerys. Look at Ned. Look at Brienne. Those all adhere to honor, those are all moral, without  lacking wits or being self-righteous. Sure, all those did make mistakes, sure they were not the brightest or the kindest or even the humblest from time to time, but those are fundamentally good, noble people adhering to doing the right thing. We could even add Varys, Missandei, Robb, Greyworm, and a few others in there. 

There is no coincidence that when you come down to it, Jon and Danaerys are huge popular and considered to be the heroes - mainstream, part of fandomland and GRRM himself. 

[benteen]

Excellent point.  Brienne was loyal to Renly, who had no claim to the throne and would have killed his brother in battle if given the chance.  She was loyal to Renly because he was kind to her and little else.

[J----av]

13 hours ago, ElizaD said:

For a long time Hodor seemed more like an internet joke than a character, but I guess the reason "hodor!" became such a thing might be that the actor had a warm, likable presence. He only had one line, yet on a show as dark as GOT a Hodor scene always seemed like a guarantee that at least one decent person was around.

After briefly getting excited when it became clear the show was doing the Kingsmoot after all, it's funny/sad that my reaction to the TV Ironborn ended up mirroring the books: I just don't care. The show needed someone charismatic who could instantly make Euron feel like he mattered (like Pedro Pascal did in season 4), but this actor is just a random dude in medieval costume. Alfie's acting is the only good thing about that plot.

Sansa's big speeches will end up being completely worthless if she ends up letting Littlefinger, a guy she knows to be a manipulative murderer who left her to be raped, turn her against Jon. It's so frustrating that she never, ever seems to learn and is a hindrance to her house rather than an asset.

 Well it would be consistent with her character. I have always felt that Sansa would never turn out to be this big manipulative player people seem to think/want her to be. Maybe the show will go that way since they seem to be all about trying to give the fans what they want in season 6 even if its not good writing, but i can't see it happening in the books. It wouldn't make sense if she turned into Female Tyrion or LF

[Tikichick]

4 hours ago, stillshimpy said:

Just saying I don't think the show's lack of balance is solely about the story and it isn't solely about the source material either. Or even the "look how daring we're being!" We equate dark, gritty drama with narrative merit  maybe because it is a fairly recent trend in tv to be allowed to have drama not forcibly leavened by regularly scheduled insertions of mirth.  HBO in particular made their dramatic series bones on dark drama (there was still humor in The Wire) and they seemed to have embraced the "if some is good, then surely a metric fuck ton is better!"  I'm just not as convinced that these choices are solely evidence of anything to do with the show runners or writer (Delorous Ed in the books is hilarious, regularly) but rather the network. 

 

Boarswalk Empire started out as a fairly balanced show, but apparently people thought that Nucky wasn't violent enough for a gangster and as a result the show turned the violence up so far I quit watching entirely. I think HBO is actually dictating this hyper darkness. The first season wasn't as terrified of fun.  As for Penny and Hannibal, they both rely on people being willing to view hyper-realized-gore. Their darkness is messier but still there.

I don't see HBO interfering overmuch with storyline trajectories on GOT because they did on Boardwalk.  GOT is a ratings juggernaught and Boardwalk never really reached the heights it was expected to.  IMO the lack of balance is the production team has realized they've got a lot of story to tell and not an endless amount of episodes to do it in.  I wish they'd figure out how to give us those moments to relax, de-stress and catch our breath by spending time in little moments of characters or scenes that would mean something to the audience, rather than gandering at wee warty willie or other cringeworthy middle school humor.   

[FemmyV]

1 hour ago, stagmania said:

What I'm wondering is if Bran has any idea that the wall is protected by the same magic as the cave, and thus could be breached in the same way. I'm guessing that's another piece of information that has not been shared with him. 

Pretty sure book Bran knows, and that Sam explained it when he introduced Bran's group to Cold Hands. With show Bran, anything's possible.

 

1 hour ago, nksarmi said:

Yeah and now that you mention it - there's the whole bit about LF knowing the kinds of things some men are into. Maybe he just spent too long watching men do it to whores that he assumes lords know better than to treat ladies like that?

It doesn't really matter to me whether or not LF knew Ramsey was going to give Sansa the harsh treatment; he knew exactly what kind of person Roose was, and the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. Further, he knew he was leaving Sansa without anything like a Clegane around to protect her if anything should get out of hand. 10:1 he was counting on Sansa to be happy to see him and his troops, either way.

So the plan was: drop off Sansa, let her marry Ramsey; go back, kill Ramsey now that Sansa was installed in the North and gain control of whatever troops resulted from that. From there, he probably figured he'd have control of Northern and Vale troops. Next, marry Sansa and ally with the Tully's. Then take down the Tyrell's - ostensibly for Cersei, but really to keep them quiet about Joffrey's death - before finally coming for the Lannisters. Just my hunch.

5 hours ago, paramitch said:

To me, increasingly, the world of Game of Thrones is a grimy and hopeless one. There's no break from the absolute onslaught of death, loss, misery, and tragedy, and that makes me really sad. But I'm angry too. Because the show, as superb as it truly is, is empty. There's no heart beating beneath it. No joy beneath the tragedy. It's just unrelenting misery. I'm still here. I'll keep watching.

Yah, I'm with you. Often, it just feels like porn in comparison to Seasons 1 and 2. I may be wrong, but that's what it seems like the more D & D deviate from GRRM. At least this season, it's porn that's going somewhere.

 

10 hours ago, Argenta said:

  16 hours ago, Fishslap said:

I don't think it changes the curious fact that a lot of people seem more upset over animals dying than people. I don't think the DWs are any more beautiful than any other animals, or people for that matter. And they are not meaningful characters on the TV show was my point with saying that they have no lines.

From April 22 Mashable, with GRRM:
 

Quote

Spoiler

“Arya’s wolf, Nymeria, in particular, will play an important role,”

 Martin told Mashable. “You know, I don’t like to give things away. But you don’t hang a giant wolf pack on the wall unless you intend to use it.”

 

For my own part, whenever one of the dire wolves die, that signifies an increased chance D & D will further deviate from one of the aspects of the books, that book fans loved. So, yes, it's a pisser.

[J----av]

38 minutes ago, benteen said:

Excellent point.  Brienne was loyal to Renly, who had no claim to the throne and would have killed his brother in battle if given the chance.  She was loyal to Renly because he was kind to her and little else.

 Thats pretty much why she is loyal to anyone, as long as they are high born. Cat, Jamie, Sansa, Renly. If you are high born and nice to her, she will swear her life to you. It helps if you are a hot guy like Jamie and Renly too

[TaurusRose]

6 hours ago, Edith said:

"Once he had been taught to do something, he did it deftly. His hands were always gentle, though his strength was astonishing.“You could have been a knight too, I bet,” Bran told him. “If the gods hadn’t taken your wits, you would have been a great knight.” (Clash of Kings, Bran II).

One of the saddest death is the series but at least he did become the greatest knight at the end! 

And Summer man that was harsh! Seriously STOP killing the direwolfs!!!

I didn't care about the Ironbore. I skipped while reading, I rolled my eyes while watching 

If Sansa betrays Jon then she will become the first Stark that I will want dead and cheers when is happening! 

Mereen was fine just like last episode. In fact I prefer this storyline that Bravos..

Second Stark.  Catelyn had the honor of being first for me.

 

Quote

I forgot my favorite line. Brienne to Sansa about Jon "he seems trustworthy, but a little brooding, but that's to be expected" or some such thing. I burst out laughing.

Yes, that was very funny and only topped by her expression when Tormund was giving her his version of sexy eyes.  

 

Quote

Hodor! Man, that was brutal. Some great acting from IHW.

 

Very much in agreement with this.

 

Quote

Poor Bran is just a kid who has had terrible things happen to him.

 

I'm not a huge Bran fan right now.  The reasons why have already been commented on in the thread.

 

Quote

"Jon is every bit Ned's Stark's son as Ramsey is Roose Bolton's." Not, "every bit as much as Rob, Bran and Rickon," and not "every bit as much as I and Arya are Ned's daughters." And that is why I will never, ever, be a Jonsa shipper. She does not view him as her equal. Period. Her attitude may change with the whole R + L business, and that's just as much reason why Jon deserves so much better than what she offers him as a mate.

I like this comment.  Also, if IRC, in the books, Jon was the one who looked most like Ned physically another reason why Catelyn was such a bitch towards him.

Add me to the list of folks who loved Sansa's verbal beat down of Littlefinger, Dany & Jorah's parting and Varys' getting the wind knocked out of his sails by the new priestess.   It also sucked that Summer was killed, but at least he went out like a warrior protecting his peeps. DO NOT KILL GHOST! 

Edited May 24, 2016 by taurusrose

[sumiregusa]

6 hours ago, paramitch said:

Oh, fuck you, show. Again. A thousandfold.

I still think this show is superb in so many ways. But, increasingly, I've begun to resent its lack of joy, in the fact that it's an exercise in pretty much unceasing misery, with occasional exclamation marks for (Look! How! Real! We're! Being! in! Fantasy!

But what does that matter? If there's no joy? What does it matter to the characters in that world? To us, as viewers? If there's no joy, what do they have to live for? I get the historical references, but I guarantee you that even those involved in life before the Glencoe massacre or the Wars of the Roses had moments of real uplift and exuberance. Where is that feeling on this show? EVER? Even those moments of rare sweetness we do get here feel filled with greyness and foreboding. (See also: Meera's sweet scene with Hodor about the foods they look forward to).

To me, increasingly, the world of Game of Thrones is a grimy and hopeless one. There's no break from the absolute onslaught of death, loss, misery, and tragedy, and that makes me really sad. But I'm angry too. Because the show, as superb as it truly is, is empty. There's no heart beating beneath it. No joy beneath the tragedy. It's just unrelenting misery. I'm still here. I'll keep watching. But -- after Shireen, which was my breaking point -- I always know it will be horrible, whereas no matter how dark other shows I loved got, there was still love, still palpable, real joy -- even in incredible darkness -- in "Hannibal," "Penny Dreadful," "The Magicians" (an utterly underrated season-long adaptation), etc. The worst part is, for me, Shireen died and TV Tropes have ensured that we haven't seen the conversation that would have taken places HOURS/DAYS ago between Davos and Melisandre. Or Davos and Jon, Davos and Brienne (he has reason to seek her out), etc.

But no. The show is already full of zombies, and the Night's King hasn't even won yet.

I'll still watch, to the bitter end. But honestly, I won't care as much as I once might have. I'm desensitized. Kill all the direwolves, fine, go for it. It's cheap and tiresome as both a reader and a viewer. Fine. I've checked out. Even here, I was devastated at poor Hodor, and Summer, the Three-Eyed Raven, and even Leaf, and yet I didn't care as much as I would have two years ago. I'm tired. I half wish they'd all go so it was all over. I'm weirdly grateful for this season because at least it moves -- and ends the miseries of many characters involved. Gah.

Preach the goddamn truth.

I said almost exactly this to a couple of my mates that I always talk about GOT with. Like really. I'm at my wit's end with this show. I'll watch because Stockholm but I really can't be bothered to believe that D&D can consistently produce amazing and compelling content. I just don't have faith anymore. I'm over it.

[Tikichick]

1 minute ago, taurusrose said:

Second Stark.  Catelyn had the honor of being first for me.

I never warmed to Catelyn, book or screen version.  I found her death sad simply because of the impact upon her children and their cause and futures.

[sunflower]

Quote

See how that pans out and keep the Vale army as a fallback.

I love both Sansa and Jon, but my problem, which I think Jon will have if/when he finds out, is what about their little brother Rickon?  You had the Vale Army, but didn't take it because why, exactly?  Littlefinger is a piece of shit that I'd love off the board, or, at least, away from the Starks.  

[Cherpumple]

7 hours ago, sacrebleu said:

I'm kind of hoping that Varys takes Theon under his wing and shows him the career opportunities available to a eunuch. Let Yara be Dany's admiral-- and sail her an her many armies across the narrow sea.

I love this! Varys would be a great career counsellor to the rudderless Theon, who I would love to see get a new purpose in life. On a related note, I'm rooting for Brienne and Tormund just as much as anyone, but I was also really shipping Missandei and Grey Worm last season, and that storyline has virtually disappeared, so I'm not getting my hopes up for this new power couple, especially if they go their separate ways to drum up northern support.

Time travel plot lines always give me a headache, but I decided to cleanse my brain palate after this episode by watching the episode of Futurama in which the main character goes back in time and inadvertently becomes his own grandfather ("Roswell that Ends Well"). I think Bran should heed the wise professor's advice when going on future greenseeing missions: "You mustn't interfere with the past. Don't do anything that affects anything. Unless it turns out that you were supposed to do it; in which case, for the love of God, don't NOT do it!"

[stillshimpy]

I was specifically refuting the idea the Brienne looked dim-witted for continuing to distrust Davos because he had initially backed Stannis, when Renly had no claim at that time. It wasn't solely about "you weren't on my initial dodgeball team" but rather that and then "yo, he killed his own brother, I distrust people who are okay with" particularly because of the way he was killed. Even if she  would have been upset by any means of taking Renly out ,  in particular she was upset by the duplicity and sinister nature of the murder.  That is actually a valid concern when judging potential allies.  It's also all she knows of Davos.   We have the benefit of  A much better acquaintanceship with him, but it is all Brienne knows of him.   Small wonder if she judges him harshly. I like Davos but I can understand why Brienne does not. 

 

 On the subject of Bran and whether not he is accountable for what happened because he had been warned, there is a difference between choosing danger for yourself, and using it for the world. Bran thought he was choosing danger for himself and did not know he was choosing it for the world.   Now he did know that he is important to the world and therefore should have been more careful with his own safety but he likely thought his was the only safety he was risking.  Considering how spectacularly pear-shaped it all went I'm sure he will writhe with guilt and anguish forever afterwards, truly though he did not know he could endthe world.  He should have known that since he was important to saving the world he shouldn't have done it anyway.   However brand Stark is a traumatized, crippled child who has been on the run for years and has landed in a freezing cold cave with an inability to walk, nothing to eat, and the lure of the world where he can visit his dead family.  He will pay very dearly for having given into that very understandable human impulse. 

Edited May 29, 2016 by stillshimpy

[Clanstarling]

I can't blame Brienne from being suspicious of him - since she does not know anything other than he was Stannis' man. She assumes the same kind of unquestioning loyalty she gives.

While, like her, he's very much a loyal servant, who knew his place, he's also a man who did question Stannis' tactics and try to advise against them.  

Once she knows that about Davos (if she ever does - since no one ever seems to debrief anyone else, much less have a conversation), she might think differently. 

[stillshimpy]

Yeah, more than a keyboard I miss the ability to FUCKING EDIT!!! Mother clucker.

[Constantinople]

4 hours ago, Alapaki said:

Allies or not, Roose is no way allowing anyone to bring an outside army in unless he asks for it specifically.

Did you mean Ramsay?

Roose is kennel chow.

Valar Morghulis

[Macbeth]

9 hours ago, paramitch said:

I still think this show is superb in so many ways. But, increasingly, I've begun to resent its lack of joy, in the fact that it's an exercise in pretty much unceasing misery, with occasional exclamation marks for (Look! How! Real! We're! Being! in! Fantasy!

I do agree - for example the amount of time spent with the Boltons has driven me crazy and made it hard for me to watch.  I am not expecting joy though - given what has been going on in the show.  I do look for fleeting moments of humor which this show provides.  Arya firmly standing by her statement that she is No One, and then the look on her face while she was watching the play had me laughing.  Maisie is so good, and Arya should never play poker.

 And I do like to see perserverance - which this show has in spades.  Sansa taking LF to task, and Yara & Theon stealing a fleet made me very happy.

But then I watch "The Americans" which has no humor what so ever even though it takes place in the early 80s.

I do hope that  every single child of the forest died in this episode and they no longer pose a threat.  They created the white walkers they all deserve to die at their hands.  Otherwise this story will perpetuate itself into infinity.  I imagine it was they that woke the walkers up.  The Wildings became too populous  - they try once again to rid their land of humans.  It just backfired on them when Bran stayed in the past too long.

Why else wasn't Bran told about the danger of the mark of that he might be the key for the Wall to fall?  The 3 eyed raven wasn't going to say anything.  He probably wanted his suffering to end.

[screamin]

5 hours ago, FemmyV said:

Next, marry Sansa and ally with the Tully's. Then take down the Tyrell's - ostensibly for Cersei, but really to keep them quiet about Joffrey's death - before finally coming for the Lannisters. Just my hunch.

I really don't think LF intends to attack the Tyrells to mollify Cersei at this point. The news is undoubtedly spreading fast that LF is intending to lead a Vale army to rescue Sansa. You can't keep an entire army quiet about their mission. And the idea of rescuing regicide Sansa instead of cutting her head off and sending it to Cersei is treason to the Lannister throne. Not something Cersei would be willing to overlook.

If LF's kept an eye on events in King's Landing, he'd know that the Lannisters and the Tyrells are on the edge of civil war there. LF's likeliest plan is to just stand back and wait until both sides have ground each other down in battle, then sweep in and demolish the weakened victor.

[Fishslap]

5 hours ago, sumiregusa said:

Preach the goddamn truth.

I said almost exactly this to a couple of my mates that I always talk about GOT with. Like really. I'm at my wit's end with this show. I'll watch because Stockholm but I really can't be bothered to believe that D&D can consistently produce amazing and compelling content. I just don't have faith anymore. I'm over it.

It's a misleading show is the thing. It wants you to invest in characters that are, obviously, doomed because of the WWs and the Layer of Eggs. Nothing in Westeros is as it seems and nothing really matters, regardless of who comes out on top. Despite this, most of the story has been set in Westeros, a soon to be graveyard. So at its core the show misleads the viewers about what is important. When you think about it the show made us believe for about four and a half seasons that the Lannisters were just the worst villains ever. Everyone on the show blamed them for everything; killing Jon Arryn, poisoning Robert, pushing Bran from the window, executing Ned, getting Robb and Catelyn murdered. Just anything bad and it was the Lannisters, and no one ever said otherwise. Then we find out that it was Lisa Arryn and LF who killed Jon. And the reason he did that was to get Ned Stark to KL so he could be set up and killed to start the war LF needed to take power. And then you have to ask whether it was also LF who leaked information about the Lannister incest to Jon, so this material would be in KL as bait for Ned when he got there. And consequently all three families have been nothing but witless pawns in LF's schemes for going on six seasons, including the Lannisters, who are now in second place among families who have lost the most out of all this. The Barathions are extinct and take first place while the Starks at least have a few living members of reproductive age left and take third place. Once Tommen and Lansel go, which they will, the Lannisters will be finished as well. And it's all because of LF, by all accounts a minor character for most of the show. Presently he is Lord of the Vale, the deciding factor in wars between north and south, and the key to him seizing the north and then the Iron Throne. He has used the Tyrells to kill Joffre, which will obviously lead to the Tyrells and what remains of Lannisters destroying each other once this dawns on Cercei. I even suspect him of setting off the High Sparrow in KL before he left. At least the Sparrows appeared in KL the second LF left town, which is suspicious all in itself.

The only people who have ever found LF out are Catelyn, who is dead, and Varys, who is exiled. It is possible that Sansa is getting close now, but the question is whether she will kill him or he will kill her. My money is on Balysh all day long. He might even ally with the Boltons this season if Sansa refuses to be his tool. And she will. The mistake is becoming attached to anyone or anything on this show. That is bound to end in disappointment and cynicism.

Edited May 25, 2016 by Fishslap
spellage

[GrailKing]

2 hours ago, sunflower said:

I love both Sansa and Jon, but my problem, which I think Jon will have if/when he finds out, is what about their little brother Rickon?  You had the Vale Army, but didn't take it because why, exactly?  Littlefinger is a piece of shit that I'd love off the board, or, at least, away from the Starks.  

Their personal tragedies are going to motivate their decisions I think she only trust 4 people right now, herself, Brienne,Pod and Jon.

Mel, Davos, Tormond, and Edd have to earn her trust.

And we know LF is manipulating and it has to be in her mind a lot of her tragedies came at the hands of "Bastards" Joffery and Ramsey and her upbringing by her mother and septa have years of enforcement to over come.

It's also at what point should they show their hand, can she depend on LF.

First off, the scene opens with Sansa sewing hers and possibly Jon's uniform she gets a letter and ask how far is Molestown, we see her standing up to LF and him manipulating with the half brother and RR comment; She can't trust him, and that comment to her could reinforce that; in the fact she knows inside that he could be building a wedge to put between her and Jon.

It then cuts to the 'war room' of them figuring out how to get men and support, at this point Sansa isn't expecting what we already know, the North is low on men except for House Manderly, the Glovers, Hornwoods and Mormonts don't have many men when she finds this out she may tell Jon what she knows, but she's afraid to trust people and I think she's afraid LF may learn that Rickon is alive and  try and kill Jon and Rickon.

She's new at this game and is winging it as she goes, until she learns to trust the people around her, and Jon needs to fight through his scars too.

She has seen what happens to people who go to bed with LF, her Aunt died, he set up the Tyrell and along with them her and Tyrion.

She still doesn't know about the betrayal against her father; also the war of the 5 kings at the wedding didn't have a betrayal sequence like in Bravos( by the way notice the betrayal was Tyrion with the knife to Ned's throat) and the Hound isn't around to give her that info.

Holding back may or may not be the correct decision, we're going to have to wait.

spoilery: don't click unless you're sure!

we know from leaks Rickon dies and Tormond carries the body is a possibility.[/spoler]

I'm not sure if having the Vale at the outset or in waiting has any affect on Ramsey's mind set.

I think her mindset is trying to protect Jon and beating LF, not a nefarious act, could be why she sends Brienne to the RL, if it fails she can still bring the Vale, hopefully she can see Royce secretly.

I think from outsiders her actions are borderline questionable, but from what we know in show and book quite reasonable.

 

[Umbelina]

@paramitch

I really loved your post about the bleak nature of this tale.  It made me think of show vs book though, so I took my response over there for conversation, because the question goes far beyond this episode for me.  I share those feelings, but I had them while reading the books as well.  Why did I even keep reading?  So much time invested for one thing, which I think may be true of the show as well.  Anyway, hope to continue the discussion in the Book vs Show thread.  Wonderful post.

[GrailKing]

Just in case:

 

Sansa explains the lie.

http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/herocomplex/la-et-hc-sansa-stark-sophie-turner-20160523-snap-story.html

[screamin]

13 hours ago, stagmania said:

 

Salon published a good piece on his murky motives this week, for anyone who's interested.

That was a good article.

I suppose one way to retcon Littlefinger's actions so that they SORT of fit what we know of him is that he likes to take bigger risks for higher stakes every time he wins...to prove to himself how much sharper he is than everyone else. He's attached to Sansa but the temptation to use her as a playing piece is greater than his attachment, so he tosses her into the game, marrying her to Ramsey - while knowing what Ramsey is like - as a challenge to himself to prove that he can win big and STILL keep Sansa as an obedient pawn.

Perhaps his plan was to rescue Sansa from Ramsey's clutches, betting that the trauma of Ramsey's torments would cause her to cling to him as her savior instead of the engineer of her suffering. And if Ramsey went too far and killed her - well, at least LF would be free of an emotional attachment he probably considers a weakness. Win-win. But Sansa did the one thing he didn't expect her to do - get away from Ramsey without his help. Now she's still alive - still tormenting him with the desire to possess her - while she's moved far beyond his reach.

Or, yeah, the showrunners were just idiots. Never mind.

[Macbeth]

  Tyrion is an idiot to invite a religion that likes to burn people at the stake as a way of propping up Dany's reign.  I was so on Varys side.  Too bad Qyburn has his birds, or he could tell Tyrion what the fanatics are doing in King's Landing.

[Fishslap]

43 minutes ago, screamin said:

That was a good article.

I suppose one way to retcon Littlefinger's actions so that they SORT of fit what we know of him is that he likes to take bigger risks for higher stakes every time he wins...to prove to himself how much sharper he is than everyone else. He's attached to Sansa but the temptation to use her as a playing piece is greater than his attachment, so he tosses her into the game, marrying her to Ramsey - while knowing what Ramsey is like - as a challenge to himself to prove that he can win big and STILL keep Sansa as an obedient pawn.

Perhaps his plan was to rescue Sansa from Ramsey's clutches, betting that the trauma of Ramsey's torments would cause her to cling to him as her savior instead of the engineer of her suffering. And if Ramsey went too far and killed her - well, at least LF would be free of an emotional attachment he probably considers a weakness. Win-win. But Sansa did the one thing he didn't expect her to do - get away from Ramsey without his help. Now she's still alive - still tormenting him with the desire to possess her - while she's moved far beyond his reach.

Or, yeah, the showrunners were just idiots. Never mind.

His main motivation is hatred of the Starks though. The only way his recent actions make sense to me is if sending Sansa to Ramsay was his reenactment of Kat's wedding to the hated Ned; a young Riverlands girl sent to languish with the smelly barbarians. He may have wanted to make her hate Winterfell, the north, her own Stark heritage and to see her father, the Lord of Winterfell, in Ramsay. The more sadistic and reprobate Ramsay behaved towards her, therefore, the better. Then he can "rescue" her from "Ned" and she can become the Tully princess LF has been longing for his whole life. His lifelong love for Kat will then be vindicated by Sansa's hatred of the north, and obviously he can then also use her to control the north, which he has to if he wants to rule Westeros. If she rebels against his manipulation and becomes his enemy though he will destroy her, which is the silent threat from him during their encounter in episode 5. He has the only intact army in Westeros under his command and can back Sansa against Ramsay or the other way round, as he sees fit. If she chooses to be a Stark that is precisely what I think he will do. He hates the Starks, including her if she makes the wrong choice.

Everything LF does is subtle on this show. Blink and you miss it.

Edited May 25, 2016 by Fishslap

[Cherpumple]

I agree that LF is motivated, in part, by a hatred of the Starks, but I've never bought the idea that he actually loved Catelyn. I'm sure he was attracted to her and would have loved to marry her for his own personal gain, but I've never seen a drop of real affection for her in anything he's said or done in either the books or the show. It seems that D&D are accepting that his love was real, but it really rings false to me. He just seems like a typical sociopath (or psychopath, I get them confused) who is incapable of true love or compassion for anyone.

[Ambrosefolly]

3 minutes ago, Cherpumple said:

I agree that LF is motivated, in part, by a hatred of the Starks, but I've never bought the idea that he actually loved Catelyn. I'm sure he was attracted to her and would have loved to marry her for his own personal gain, but I've never seen a drop of real affection for her in anything he's said or done in either the books or the show. It seems that D&D are accepting that his love was real, but it really rings false to me. He just seems like a typical sociopath (or psychopath, I get them confused) who is incapable of true love or compassion for anyone.

I think LF loved Cat as much as someone like LF can love anyone or anything. He is too much of a sociopath and too embittered to truly love anyone unselfishly. Not only was Cat a beauty with the airs of  a lady, she was the first born daughter of one of the Great Lords and someone he grew up with, so he put her on a pedestal to be obtained and he still trying to obtained her and he never stop. If he ever did obtain the Iron Thron, he first thought would probably be he is now someone Cat would have to marry. 

[GrailKing]

There are two Baleish here; the young naive one who as a boy thought he could get the girl, never realizing that not of blue blood is a hindrance, this Baleish loved Cat, as he tells us in season 1 he has a scar to prove it. 

Then he learned a hard truth and decided he was going to beat the high lords but he couldn't fight them as their equals so he went a different path and Littlefinmger was born, who puts self interest and power ahead of love ( with the exception of Sansa; maybe ) or friendship.

[Fishslap]

20 minutes ago, Cherpumple said:

I agree that LF is motivated, in part, by a hatred of the Starks, but I've never bought the idea that he actually loved Catelyn. I'm sure he was attracted to her and would have loved to marry her for his own personal gain, but I've never seen a drop of real affection for her in anything he's said or done in either the books or the show. It seems that D&D are accepting that his love was real, but it really rings false to me. He just seems like a typical sociopath (or psychopath, I get them confused) who is incapable of true love or compassion for anyone.

No that's true. But sociopaths often simulate emotions, and they do often believe in these simulations. And I'm not so sure LF actually is a sociopath so much as he is driven by vengeance. His affection and empathy was killed along with his attempt to marry Kat and now he hates the world. The only thing left for him is power. Anyway, whether his emotions are real or not, loving Kat and hating the Starks is his self-narrative and what motivates him. LF's relationship with Sansa can't be understood in a vaccum here, not least because this is fiction. And his motives have been spelled out in detail throughout the show so you'd think the writers would stick to that. To him Sansa is Kat. Or rather, he hopes, the woman Kat would have been if she had never married Ned and become a Stark. If she becomes something else, Sansa will be just one more enemy to be destroyed I think. And a Stark enemy at that.

Edited May 25, 2016 by Fishslap

[ElizaD]

14 hours ago, screamin said:

I HOPE that's all Sansa intends - because if it turns out that the long-term plan is that Sansa backstabs Jon with a mwa-ha-ha! of Sudden Evil, I'm done.

Maybe what the showrunners are doing are trying to put Show Sansa back in the place that Book Sansa is - still LF's loyal shadow, half-brainwashed into believing that's really ALL she is...setting her to be and do whatever GRRM has planned for her book finale. But if that's their plan, they're screwing up, because Show Sansa has already shown herself to have irrevocably changed from Book Sansa - to shove her back into that role would be damn stupid.

I also hope that Sansa won't betray Jon, but right now this feels like another occasion when people are coming up with theories because they don't like the obvious and ultimately correct explanation the show offers. Sassy nurse Talisa doesn't make sense in a medieval setting, she's a Lannister spy! No, she's exactly who she says she is. The Umbers are planning to betray Ramsay! No, they really did give Rickon to him. Sansa is trying to play the game but she's traumatized! ... I'm afraid the answer to that might well turn out to be no, she's Littlefinger's pawn and looks too stupid to live because she is getting shoved back into that role since the shock was the sole purpose of the rape and it won't be allowed to affect her characterization or plot if those still require her to work with Littlefinger.

[Gertrude]

I hate trying to figure out where Sansa is going or what her end-game might look like for one simple fact. I don't trust D&D to tell the story well, or even tell GRRM's story at all. I don't think they have a good handle on Sansa and really never have. It kind of makes these discussions pointless for me, because I tend to gloss over show hiccups with book knowledge. Sometimes it's really hard to do, and Sansa is one of those cases. I have really come to like Book Sansa, but Show Sansa has too much sulky brat in her for my taste. I feel horrible even writing that because she's been through some shit, but that's how I often feel about the Show version. She confuses me, ping-ponging back and forth between some real strength and maturity back to silly, naive girl.

[Fishslap]

It's always hard to move something from one medium to another though. Sansa is supposed to be like...13 at this point. Meanwhile Sophie Turner is 20 and about 6'3. So it all felt a little weird when this huge woman was acting like a little girl in season 1 and 2. And it feels weird whenever you accidentally remember the age of the character that a 13 year old girl is acting like a grown woman. Turner really can't win here between the book readers and the people who compulsively pay attention to detail. It's just all off somehow, whichever angle you approach it from.

Personally I am taking the same approach I tried to take with the Lord of the Rings movies. Just close my eyes and hope they don't give Orlando Bloom more dialogue than absolutely necessary. I really liked Legolas and the elves in the books, but waited in vain for six movies for him to die to a stray arrow when he was moved on screen. All those orcs and not one of them managed to hit him... Anyway, and if possible, just forget you ever read the books while watching the show. If you can do that it is possible to enjoy GoT I find. To me personally it is a great help that nothing has thus far been bungled as badly as Parth Galen was bungled by Peter Jackson. Compared to that, all is well with the world.

[loki567]

3 hours ago, ElizaD said:

I also hope that Sansa won't betray Jon, but right now this feels like another occasion when people are coming up with theories because they don't like the obvious and ultimately correct explanation the show offers. Sassy nurse Talisa doesn't make sense in a medieval setting, she's a Lannister spy! No, she's exactly who she says she is. The Umbers are planning to betray Ramsay! No, they really did give Rickon to him. Sansa is trying to play the game but she's traumatized! ... I'm afraid the answer to that might well turn out to be no, she's Littlefinger's pawn and looks too stupid to live because she is getting shoved back into that role since the shock was the sole purpose of the rape and it won't be allowed to affect her characterization or plot if those still require her to work with Littlefinger.

Exactly. That's one of my big knocks against the series considering the books' complex theories and character motivations, GoT writers always spell out everything. In the history of the show, I literally can't think of an instance where there's ever been honest-to-god ambiguity about a character's motivations. No character development either. Everybody is pretty much exactly the same as they were at the beginning of the series, even if their circumstances have changed.

So if the scene's hints that Sansa's being played by Littlefinger, Sansa is being played by Littlefinger. 

[wallflower75]

14 hours ago, Tikichick said:

I never warmed to Catelyn, book or screen version.  I found her death sad simply because of the impact upon her children and their cause and futures.

Same here.  I went back to an old LJ post of mine and read through my initial thoughts of Catelyn, which were mostly based around how she treated Jon.  Her hatred toward someone who in the books was just a kid who had done nothing to her except be born was ridiculous.  Yes, he was a living reminder of her husband's (supposed) infidelity, but honestly, did she really love Ned when they were first married?  I don't think the book ever said or implied that it was love at first sight between Ned and Catelyn.  If it had been, and Ned came home with an illegitimate child, I would understand her feelings toward Jon better.  But it seemed to me she'd felt that way about Jon since Ned brought him home after the war was over.  Plus, you can see the echo of her feelings toward Jon in other interactions.  I remember when Catelyn came across one of Robert's bastards--Mya Stone, I think was the name--she kept referring to her in her mind as the bastard girl or something like that.  It rubbed me the wrong way when I read it.  So no, Catelyn wasn't my favorite character.  Her death saddened me mostly because of Arya.  Arya was so close to being reunited with some of her family, only to discover them in the process of being slaughtered.

Sansa is someone who frustrated me in the books, much though I tried to put myself in her shoes--young, innocent, sheltered, too trusting.  How else would she react other than how she did?  I still have hope that she wises up in the books.  Show Sansa fares a little better, but then comes this episode where she goes from doing something kick-ass (refusing to let Littlefinger slither out of his culpability for the abuse she endured at Ramsay's hands) to frustrating (WHY wouldn't she tell the truth about where she heard about the Blackfish).

And I'm definitely on the Tormund-Brienne bandwagon.

[AnnaMayWong]

On Monday, May 23, 2016 at 10:59 AM, Raachel2008 said:

I don't think Sansa is playing Jon or is ashamed of confessing that Littlefinger fooled her, I think she is being just plain arrogant and NAIVE/STUPID. This is a girl who has zero experience in planning ahead or strategic thinking, who is only alive because of a) luck, b) other people saving her ass. Yet, here she is, believing she can outsmart the slimmiest guy in the entire Westeros and deciding by herself a course of action that affects the whole North, without telling her true ally - her brother - and her much experienced advisors (sorry, Brienne doesn't count here, she could tell Brienne to jump the wall and she would). It reminds me a LOT of all Catelyn's bad decisions and stupid ideas that ultimely helped to dig the Stark grave, but in Catelyn's defense (and I cannot believe I'm deffending the woman), she had a life ruling at Ned's side and was much more of a political animal than Sansa will ever be. I don't mind Sansa being more assertive, discussing ideas, etc. But I feel like D&D got tired of all the "Sansa is a little damsel in distress" criticism and decided to just show the world how much they believe in girl!power.

It never crossed my mind that Sansa could be pregnant; now that I think about it, she could, and logic dictates she should. My SO said last night that Sophie Turner looked chubbier, could very well be that the producers asked her to pack on five pounds to look pregnant, but who knows. I guess we will have to wait and see.

I love Yara and Theon together, it works in a level that very few things work in this show. It is hard to watch and at the same time it is moving in its own way, and Alfie Allen is killing it. Yara may be one of my favorite characters right now, and I find the Ironborn fascinating - but how Euron thinks he can reach Danaerys before Yara and Theon is beyond me.

Here hoping the Targaryen and Greyjoy meeting happens like yesterday. I want Danaerys sailing asap, it has been five years in the making and now she will have the fucking ships to do it. And while I do appreciate that slavery is discusssed in the show, and I trully hope the Bay of Slaves become the Bay of Free People (or Free Explored People), it is so damn boring. Also, it wastes Tyrion in a way I didn't think it was possible. Point in case, Tyrion, from all people, trusting that Kinvara red witch bitch. Varys had a point, and a valid one, though I think the whole talk with Kinvara was only paving the way for both Danaerys and Jon being the ones who will save Westeros.

Jaqen cannot for a second believe that Arya will ever become a girl who has no name; in fact, I think that if he did, he would never be so invested in her. I fucking loved the play, Arya's reactions and, Lord, what a cast! I agree on all accounts with the poster who said that maybe next week the play will be about the Red Wedding and this is what will snap Arya back into being a new Arya - one who will never forget she is a Stark but less bloodthisrty.

It is a shame there is so much going on that we didn't get more about the Children of the Forest. I was actually hoping one of them would survive and cross to the "real world". 

Now that Jon is leaving the wall, thus getting away from the White Walkers, it makes a lot of sense that Bran in the one who will be part of their storyline.

Never getting over how Hodor died, and never getting over how he LIVED.

I enthusiastically concur with your entire post.

[stagmania]

8 hours ago, Fishslap said:

Everything LF does is subtle on this show. Blink and you miss it.

Except in this case, apparently not. The writers and actor who portray him have apparently said that he had no knowledge of how Ramsey is, and therefore no complex or subtle plan involving using his cruelty to mold Sansa one way or the other. Of all the interesting possibilities the posters here have come up with to fanwank it, the show went with the least thoughtful (or plausible). It doesn't inspire much confidence in their handle on characterization.

[Macbeth]

I apologize I still need to rant about Tyrion.  I know the conversation is elsewhere, but I rewatched last night and I am still pissed.

Dumbest move ever Tyrion.  The High Sparrow is a fanatic, but he isn't burning the poor.  She threatened Varys -Tyrion.  The man who got you out of KL after you killed your father.  Remember him.  Basically she said hopefully he would prove worthy of Dany because  otherwise....

And Dany will not be pleased with any competition.  No one gets to burn or kill her subjects but her.

[Tikichick]

Book and screen, I've always had the sense Littlefinger has been trying to win the battles and prizes he lost in his youth.  He's been burning for years that he was not highborn and therefore an unsuitable mate for Catelyn -- or even her sister that he never really cared for.  He's worked to rewrite those past deficiencies by his rising wealth, position and influence -- and by eventually marrying Lysa Arryn.  His real rage lies in the fact the love of his life was married off to kind of a hick family in a miserable backwater simply because they are highborn.  His rage burns hotter because his love fell in love with the noble hick!!!

I do think he's been putting a pin in his Ned Stark voodoo doll on the regular for many, many years, just waiting to get his revenge.  IMO that includes the happy Stark family Ned and Catelyn raised.  He's been right in there in the thick of things with Tywin and Roose, who's to say he didn't at least know about the plans for the red wedding?  Even if he knew Catelyn would be sacrificed, he also knew she'd never love or accept him.  Who's to say he hasn't a hand in the Rickon situation?  Bran being crippled makes him lower priority, and presumably easier prey in Littlefinger's eyes.  So far he has no leads on Arya and may assume she's met her fate on her own.  He'll likely make a move on Jon at some point, may be trying to lay the groundwork with the current storyline.

Leaves him with the one remaining Stark who brings back Catelyn to him.  He returned her to her home to assume her rightful place as Lady of Winterfell -- by marrying her off to the heir of the same backwater he lost his true love to.  This time he made sure Catelyn 2.0 wouldn't fall in love with her groom.  Revenge or attempt to prepare her to accept his own advances and give him what he's always dreamed of?  Also gilded the lily by turning her attention to her other ancestral home -- the one where he was deemed an unsuitable mate for his beloved.    

[Advance35]

I don't know why I get it but I do.  I think it was definitely foolish not to tell Jon where she got the information from but for some reason, I feel like I would be disappointed if after all she's been through she was absolutely trusting of anyone.   Everyone on this show plays on a team as it were.  Jon's has been the Nightswatch.  Aside from the Brothers that were executed for the assassination he seems to trust the rest, they've earned it.   Sansa doesn't have that experience.   In Kings Landing there are no REAL allies, just people with common interests or mutual enemies.   They work together as much as they have too but they ALWAYS hold a little something back, for just in case.

She doesn't plan on coordinating an alliance with what's left of House Tully, through LF, THAT would be foolish.  She did what Jon probably would have, sent someone she feels is reliable to speak on her behalf.  Jon may have sent Davos, Sansa chose Brienne.   I think Sansa is on the side of House Stark, now and forever HOWEVER I also think she has developed a cold sense of self-preservation (whether she makes the right moves or ultimately seals her own fate will be told in time.

I do worry that she suffers the same Highborn disease Ned, Catelyn, Cersei, Olenna Tyrion, Tywin and Margaery all suffer from, they seem to think they can outfox LF.   Confidant in their own superiority as it were.   That is simply not the case.   Sansa may have a slight advantage because she appeals to him in ways the former mentioned cannot BUT she's handicapped by a lack of practical experience.

I LOVE Sansa's storyline in the books, practically my favorite actually, but I've found myself becoming more and more attached to the TV Version as I've become more and more confident GRRM will never finish the series.

[buttercupia]

regarding the overall bleakness of the series, books and show alike, I agree it gets difficult to endure.  we need some joy. i know grrm's big thing is to subvert the fantasy genre but we already have something that subverts the fantasy genre-real life.