S02.E18: Versus Zoom

[Grace19]

Nobody is going to convince me that the writers didnt pull this jay = zoom out of their ass. I believe they must have intended zoom to be someone else and then just changed it few episodes ago just to wow us, nothing about this makes any sense.

I love barry but he is the worst superhero ever, so stupid.

Atleast we got iris pov and iris/caitlin

[Ruby25]

Well, Teddy Sears still claims that when they first approached him about the role, they told him he was going to be Zoom, so I guess they did plan that. But they clearly didn't bother to work out the details until later.

 

The biggest explanation I need is how Wells didn't know he was Hunter Zolomon, since in this episode he clearly knows who Zolomon is and all about his history and everything. Why on earth did he think he was Jay this whole time? Including on his own earth? He knew what he looked like!

[FiveByFive]

Incohesive Thoughts:

 

1.  Barry you are dumb.You keep getting dumber every episode. Please hit a dumb limit and stop proceeding to get any dumber. Also all of your friends are dumb for going along with that plan including Wells. 

 

2.  You do not capture Zoom then INSIST on having a long conversation with him afterwards. Get him imprisoned and then have a talk. That was as bad as other Jay just "standing" in front of the portal before it closed a few episodes ago. 

 

3.  Why did everyone go along with this complete and total non-plan? Oh yes, we're going to bring Zoom here then capture him with a knee thingee. Delightful! I would have been yelling, "GET AWAY FROM HIM! KNOCK HIM OUT! SUCK OUT HIS SPEED! STOP CHATTING! WHAT GOOD IS THAT DOING?" 

 

4.  Joe why are you letting your son move into your house which was just broken into by a giant shark man looking for Barry? You should want him as far away from this mess as possible. Also your son wouldn't take your money to pay for a dorm but he'd move into your house? Sure. Okay. 

 

5.  What is the deal with, you can't keep beer in the fridge? You all drink and your son is an adult? You were literally drinking with Barry in this episode! 

 

6. It takes a lot to make someone evil Sisko and just because you have powers doesn't make you that way. 

 

7. Unless the man in the Iron Mask turns out to be Eddie since we didn't actually see his corpse buried and he got sucked into a portal after he "died" then I'm not sure I care too much who it is. 

 

Why on earth did he think he was Jay this whole time? Including on his own earth? He knew what he looked like!

 

The only thing I can think of is that serial killer guy had long hair and a giant beard and Zoom has always worn a mask plus there was a Jay Garrick running around. 

 

The other thing is Jay Garrick and Zoom are biologically the same person but there are multiple ones of them. So I can understand why he wouldn't think that the hero Jay was the same person as villain Jay. I don't think all of the Jays were evil. For all we know there could be worlds where Hunter Zoloman's parents didn't die. Zoom needed them to steal their speed. I don't think Team Flash has realized that yet or at least they're not acting like it. We saw Jay get dragged through the portal after getting phased through and Zoom drop his "corpse" on the floor but they're acting like they're both the exact same person. Portal Dead Jay already had his speed stolen by Zoom but portal Zoom is acting like he knew about all of that. 

 

I sound completely crazy writing all that out but it needs to be explained. 

[johntfs]

Because they were somehow the same person, whatever Time Clone Jay experienced would somehow be remembered/known by Zoom.

 

Maybe "This is a complication" was meant as "This is a complication for Team Flash that they'll have to deal with according to my plan."

 

I don't fault Barry for opening the portal to go after Zoom.  The people of Earth-2 are still people.  Leaving them to Zoom's non-existent mercy is just wrong.

 

That said, I think Barry should've gone to the past, gotten Thawne and brought him to his present so Thawne could "pretty please with sugar on top help me find a non-stupid way to take this guy down."

 

Did Cisco ever shut the portal once Zoom came through?  Yes?  Fuck it.  A wizard did it. 

Maybe a wizard did do it. One of The Flash's nastier enemies from the comics is Abra Kadabra, a 64th century stage magician who ultimately learn real magic.

Edited April 20, 2016 by johntfs

[Oscirus]

Why does this show insist upon giving every single family beat to Joe and Barry. You have a daughter, Joe. You can talk to her about these things.

And while I'm on that subject, the dad who is so overprotective of his daughter that he won't let her become a police officer is apparently cool with her being part of a plan that includes trapping a sociopath. mmm kay.

Mighty convenient that Wally just happened to move into the West house. The man in the iron mask Is Wally aka kid flash.

I guess these writers aren't going to bother building up a true romance based upon Iris's feelings for Barry so destiny it is.

 

If Barry wasn't so stupid, I'd swear that Flash wouldn't be needed. I'm also starting to think that if the West family wasn't around to enable his stupidity...

The best part is that the writers couldn't find any way to save Barry from his own stupidity so they had to use the power of love.

It was interesting watching Cisco's struggles with his powers but I feel like we've seen this struggle way too many times this season.

Has Wells's voice always been this ridiculously whispery? It seemed to be really noticeable this episode.

Why didn't Zoloman just give Caitlin a fake name? You can't give out your actual name and then act shocked that they find out about you.

Lol @ Zoom's backstory being the exact opposite of Barry's. It's poetic.

 

I will say that I agree with the majority that evil Jay was awesome and easily the best part of this episode.

 

 

 

 

[mrspidey]

So the whole time remnant thing... does that mean that Zoom and Jay are Austin Powers and Austin Powers Ten Minutes Ago?

How is Zoom even able to kill His younger self/Jay without creating a temporal paradox?

The same way we still have a Reverse Flash, even though the older one got wiped from existence via death by ancient ancestor. 

In the comics, being in the speedforce protects you from ripple effects in the timeline caused by changes. That's why younger Thawne was uneffected. If this works both ways, it could be possible to take a younger Hunter while he's in the speedforce and kill him off without repercussions because he is essentially "untethered" from time or rather, causality. 

I think the term "time remnant" makes much more sense this way too. 

Edited April 20, 2016 by mrspidey

[ottoDbusdriver]

But that 's the stupid thing -- if Zoom could travel through time, why wouldn't he .... oh, I don't know .... come over to Earth-1 after all the portals were open, travel back in time before Barry and crew knew of his existence from Harry, kidnap him, and steal his speedforce.  Seriously, this all really doesn't make much sense.

 

And how did Zoom discover he could travel back and forth in time ?  And since he's an evil serial killer, why isn't he the emperor of Earth-2 after going back in time and ruling with an iron fist for many, many years.  And how did he even know of the existence of time remnants -- unless this isn't the first time remnant he created ?

[johntfs]

But that 's the stupid thing -- if Zoom could travel through time, why wouldn't he .... oh, I don't know .... come over to Earth-1 after all the portals were open, travel back in time before Barry and crew knew of his existence from Harry, kidnap him, and steal his speedforce.  Seriously, this all really doesn't make much sense.

 

And how did Zoom discover he could travel back and forth in time ?  And since he's an evil serial killer, why isn't he the emperor of Earth-2 after going back in time and ruling with an iron fist for many, many years.  And how did he even know of the existence of time remnants -- unless this isn't the first time remnant he created ?

 

Maybe he tried that and Eobard as Wells fucked him up bad and gave him speed cancer or something.

 

He probably discovered time travel by accident like Barry did.  The show seems to be going with a "there but for the grace of the Speed Force go I" concept that Zoom is what Barry might have become except for efforts of his friends, family and, oh yeah, his murderous villain mentor from the future.

[AudienceofOne]

Well, that sucked.

 

You stole my line.

 

 

-  I realized something I should have before now... its usually the bad guy who stops to gloat and the good guy ends up ruining his plans, but Barry is about as good at monologuing to his detriment, when he has a bad guy 'in his grasp'.   If he had of just done whatever to make sure Zolomon was contained 'for good', instead of being all "haha, got ya now, sucka!", maybe that all ends differently.

 

That's what I was thinking in that scene. Why is Barry suddenly doing a "mwahahaha" bad guy monologue? It's like he wanted him to get away. And I love Grant Gustin and still want him to have my babies but even he couldn't make that scene work. I think it's the only time I've even seen through the cracks in his performance.

 

 

1. I'm sure this was more the fault of CBS than anyone else, but really, Barry comes back from a third Earth, where he's met aliens, and doesn't think this is worth mentioning to his team?

 

And then proceeds to have an entire episode devoted to "why he doesn't know how to get to parallel Earths" without mentioning the fact that he literally just ran to one a minute beforehand.

"Hey, I'm back. How long was I gone? So let's talk about how we have no way to get to parallel Earths and I need to get to Earth 2. For reasons."

"Ok, Barry, but what did you mean by 'I'm back' and asking how long you were gone?"

"Oh, nothing relevant. I just ran to a parallel Earth."

*crickets*

 

But for all the plot holes and inconsistencies and gobbledygook science, I have to say my biggest problem with this season is the way they talk about Barry's biology like it can be taken away and swapped out and given as a gift. Every time someone says "Give me your speed force", I hear "Give me your tall".

"Zoom wants your tall. He wants you to be taller so he can steal your tall and be taller too!"

 

In an episode devoted to somebody killing their "time remnant" as though that is a thing that makes any sort of sense, I still think this is the dumbest pseudoscientific thing this show has done. And they have two main characters who creates wormholes with their feelings.

[Locutus]

Eddie has to be under the mask. He could be back in season 3 and delay the Iris\Barry pairing a little longer.

[benteen]

They should have gone with the twins theory, they really should have!

This episode made me stop and wonder: Why am I still watching this show? Like I like Iris, I love Joe and Harry, Cisco is still cool and I enjoy how they are growing his character, I am getting pissed off that every Caitlin Iris interaction is about a man or their love life, I realized this episode I am growing impatient with Caitlin.

Seriously at least on Arrow I have Felicity and Diggle and Thea and Olicity (well not right now), I also get John Barrowman and Mama Smoak and Nyssa on occasions- which is a nice perk, the fact that they finally killed Because Comics ought to fix about 55% of the show come next season (hopefully the first thing will be the stunts!).

I am no longer sure why I am watching the flash..? I like Barry in general but tonight episode was one of the low points, seriously we have an issue when the best thing about this episode was the villain back story!

 

I second whoever said Sears was hot as crazy Hunter/zoom.. I guess he is like Katie Cassidy? can only do one type of character really good.

On the other hand Jay being a remnant of Zoom may explain why Jay was wooden, he was trying to be someone, something, he is not: i.e. a non sociopath individual!

 

Any way, so are we all in agreement now that since my twin theory is dead the man in the iron mask is most likely Barry's dad?

 

I'm thinking i'll watch till the end of the season but i'm growing tired with the show antics.

 

I see I'm not the only one who thought this.  Twenty minutes into last night's episode, I found myself wondering why I still continued to watch this show.  To me, the show I had a lot of fun watching last season just doesn't feel the same anymore.  I've felt that since the last third of Season 1.  Barry's increasingly stupid actions is definitely a major reason for that.  I'm still going to watch the rest of the season and there's a lot still to like on this show.  But It's beginning to make me seriously reassess how watchable it still is for me and I never thought that would happen.  At least not this early.

 

 

Why does this show insist upon giving every single family beat to Joe and Barry. You have a daughter, Joe. You can talk to her about these things.

 

Was that ever more apparent than tonight when Iris is watching the two have a moment.  You just know she knows that Joe cares about Barry more than her.

 

Great description in an earlier post that Barry essentially did the equivalent of an evil monologue with Jay.  It's a great description of it although I would call it a Stupid Monologue.  Usually, it's the villain who gets the better of the hero and then stars gloating, thus losing his chance to finish off the hero.  Barry really is the exact opposite.  I said it before but that whole speech by Barry was him literally swinging his **** in Jay's face for three minutes.

[nksarmi]

Eddie has to be under the mask. He could be back in season 3 and delay the Iris\Barry pairing a little longer.

 

I hope so.  I wonder what the actor is doing. Because Eddie being back might be one of the only things that could make me come back for season three. I like Barry, but on his own show - he is dumb.  And I still can enjoy him when he pops over to Arrow, Legends, or even Supergirl if they get another season. 

[KirkB]

No one, including Wells, knew who Zoom actually was. I don't believe anyone had any idea who was under the mask. We, the audience, got to see Zoom pull his mask off and reveal Jay's face, right after we saw him kill Jay. It was some time later than Cisco got a vibe, saw Zoom with Jay's face, and told the others. The question I am asking is why did Wells never notice that Jay Garrick (or at least the Flash) and infamous serial killer Hunter Zolomon looked identical?  

[miracole]

Why does this show insist upon giving every single family beat to Joe and Barry. You have a daughter, Joe. You can talk to her about these things.

 

Was that ever more apparent than tonight when Iris is watching the two have a moment.  You just know she knows that Joe cares about Barry more than her.

 

This.  When Zoom told Wally that The Flash would care about him because someone he cares about, cares about him(Wally) You know that that was a reference to Joe and not Iris. At. All. Iris will never be as important to Joe or Barry as they are to each other. (Also, why wouldn't Zoom just tell Wally that Barry is The Flash.  Does he really care about keeping Barry's secret?  Oh he can kidnap and kill, but to give away Barry's secret! That would just be crossing the line I guess)

 

I also thought it was very obtuse of Joe to have told Wally that he didn't think to ask Wally to move in until Barry told him to. He did not have to put Barry anywhere in that conversation.

Edited April 20, 2016 by miracole

[twoods]

Serial killer Hunter had long hair and a beard- that is why Wells didn't recognize him. He probably knew about him from TV and reading about him, but probably didn't study his police photo so wouldn't have the made the connection between him and Jay.

[cambridgeguy]

 

Serial killer Hunter had long hair and a beard- that is why Wells didn't recognize him. He probably knew about him from TV and reading about him, but probably didn't study his police photo so wouldn't have the made the connection between him and Jay.

I can (kind of) buy Wells not making the connection since he may not be the type to follow these things.  However, it sounds like Hunter was about as famous as OJ Simpson - the odd thing is apparently no one thought Jay Garrick looked an awful lot like a famous serial killer.  We didn't see Jay vibrate his face in his one flashback Earth 2 public appearance either so a lot of people should have gotten a clear look.

 

Now, if serial killer Hunter had worn glasses then it would be OK.  No one can see through an impenetrable disguise like that.

[bmoore4026]

Just a reminder, folks: Flash gave up his super-speed to a super-speed junkie/serial killer to save Wally, whom the viewers don't like, and also lost Caitlyn in the process.

 

Our heroes, ladies and gentlemen.

[phoenics]

I really want next season to have the main plot not have to do with someone trying to steal Barry's speed or constantly getting faster as the only goal. The Flash has a lot of other powers too, and they should explore those- there's SO much more they can do with time travel, obviously.

 

Random example: introduce Bart Allen by having him come to their time in an attempt to prevent some catastrophe that happens to Barry and co. in the future, the seeds of which are planted in the present day. That could easily turn into a season long, Back to the Future-esque arc.

 

There are also plenty of non-speedster villains they could use for the Big Bad.

I agree with this. I'm pretty worn out on the "good guy who is really a megalo-maniac" storyline. It's a fun way to introduce villains that we know of already - but it's exhausting, lol.

Also - one more note about the episode - poor Caitlin. While I loved her chat with Iris and Iris (FINALLY!! It's only been 84 years!) coming around to her feelings about Barry (though Destiny is a heavy weight Iris, no need to take on that mantle, just recognize you love Barry!)... I felt super bad for Caitlin when Iris asked if she believed in destiny and Caitlin responded, "Maybe for you"...

*cries*

Because poor Caitlin lost her love - Ronnie! So she doesn't get the "destiny", :( That resonated with me a lot being unlucky in love myself... I really hope they bring Ronnie back (maybe he's the MiTM)... I did read that Robbie Amell wants to come back to the Flash.

Edited April 20, 2016 by phoenics

[VCRTracking]

Barry, how do you not mention you were just on another Earth for a day where you met and became friends with a pretty blonde girl who has superhuman strength, speed, invulnerability and can fly who is an alien?

Edited April 20, 2016 by VCRTracking

[johntfs]

No one, including Wells, knew who Zoom actually was. I don't believe anyone had any idea who was under the mask. We, the audience, got to see Zoom pull his mask off and reveal Jay's face, right after we saw him kill Jay. It was some time later than Cisco got a vibe, saw Zoom with Jay's face, and told the others. The question I am asking is why did Wells never notice that Jay Garrick (or at least the Flash) and infamous serial killer Hunter Zolomon looked identical?  

 

Recall that this is the same comic multiverse where no one notices that Clark Kent is Superman with glasses.  Figure the most known picture of Hunter Zoloman is that freaky Chuck Manson thing with a Duck Dynasty beard.  Beardless and in a Flash costume he's too out of context for most people to recognize.

[tarotx]

It's hard for me to read sarcasm online so I'm just going to answer this as if it's a real question...

 

Laurel is the Black Canary from Arrow. She died in episode 18. In the Arrow season 4 premiere's Flash Forward, Barry apologizes for missing the Funeral 

 

Who's Laurel? Did I miss something?

 

P.S. I love Barry, but he's the worst superhero ever. Always getting beaten up and outwitted.

[jmonique]

So let's see if I have this straight:

-- We saw scenes of "Jay" as Earth 2 "Flash," badgering Wells2 on Earth 2, where they clearly had known each other for a while.

 

-- That carried over to their interactions on Earth 1, when they got into pissing matches over Velocity 6-666 or whatever numbers they were.

 

But now Wells2 knows exactly how Hunter got his speed, judging by his narration of the little flashback?

 

I'm confused.

 

Also, now that they know it's his Nordic-looking ass, why is Hunter still going all Tony Todd on us with the voice? The slooooooow menacing tones are just OTT dramatics now.

Agreed with the person who pointed out that Joe lamenting how it took Barry to make him see that he should invite his own son to live with them was a little thoughtless. Also thoughtless? Not cluing Wally into the fact that everyone in that house is a potential target for any number of psychopaths, because the Flash is in residence.

I will give the show points for seemingly sparing us a Scott/Iris mistake.

[Cthulhudrew]

2.  You do not capture Zoom then INSIST on having a long conversation with him afterwards. Get him imprisoned and then have a talk. That was as bad as other Jay just "standing" in front of the portal before it closed a few episodes ago. 

 

Don't they usually wait until they lock these guys up in the Pipeline before having these dialogues? See: Eobard Thawne, Pied Piper, etc.

 

But somehow, for their "most dangerous foe," Barry decides to have a quick chat before lockup this time. Because the plot wouldn't work otherwise. :(

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

The Flash Zooms In On Zoom
Jay gets a backstory -- and a third name. Can Barry and the gang take him out once and for all, or is the end for The Flash?

[roomtorome]

This is a show about superheros and all they can constantly come up with is kidnapping?  pathetic

 

I am reminded (regardless of writing, etc) just how good JLM is as Joe - just so wonderful.

 

The thing that floored me the most -and that is saying a lot - is the long chat without locking him up first.  The whole team should have been there and did what needed to be done - Barry is not safe on his own, he's like a colt struggling to get his "sea legs" - he screws up pretty much every single episode, having his speed taken away is a good idea until the kid can grow up and accept some other input when making decisions.  Being fast as hell doesn't mean he's smart as hell.

[Aeryn13]

So, the Jay we met this Season was actually Zoom after all? Okay. I still don`t know why the gang believed this right away. I thought the logical conclusion was that was another doppelganger from a different Earth. And now he pulled a Grodd and kidnapped Caitlin. All that was missing was a happy flashback to a time when she sneaked him a banana. 

 

And holy parallel backstory Batman. They pushed the nature vs. nurture argument with him, Barry and Cisco/Reverb hard.

 

In conclusion: Barry is the dumbest person in the entire multiverse. Sorry to say it, he is a likeable dude and Grant Gustin is super-charming but at this point Barry is a worse menace than Rip Hunter over on Legends of Tomorrow.  

[AudienceofOne]

No one, including Wells, knew who Zoom actually was. I don't believe anyone had any idea who was under the mask. We, the audience, got to see Zoom pull his mask off and reveal Jay's face, right after we saw him kill Jay. It was some time later than Cisco got a vibe, saw Zoom with Jay's face, and told the others. The question I am asking is why did Wells never notice that Jay Garrick (or at least the Flash) and infamous serial killer Hunter Zolomon looked identical?  

 

That's what I wanted to know too. And when he said the name, Wells launches into this exposition as to why Hunter was Zoom as though he already knew it? That scene confused the hell out of me. I was left asking the same question you were - if Wells knews what Hunter looked like then why did he never notice Jay was Hunter?

[phoenics]

Exactly. I can't get over Wells not knowing Jay was Hunter all that time.

And just so we're clear - Jay was completely made up by Hunter, right? Jay as The Flash was totally Hunter's fabrication? He's been masquerading as both a hero and a villain separately ever since the particle accelerator went off?

Kinda sick how Jay/Hunter's "good guy = Jay" costume is modeled after his evil father who murdered his mother, while his "bad guy = Zoom" costume is modeled after good guy Barry Allen's Flash.

[Ruby25]

I'm not sure that Jay is made up. I feel like the show wouldn't screw with canon to the point of making the beloved Jay Garrick a non-existent person. I think he's the guy in the mask somehow.

[coolbeans3131]

I'm sorry, but the writers owe us an apology for this episode.

[mac123x]

I forget this show is on, then watch a couple of episodes online and remember why I forget this show is on.  Barry is such a dunderhead.  Most of his idiocy is already documented in this thread, so the one that had me yelling at the computer was when he had Cisco almost open a breach and let Zoom through -- he wasn't prepared, like at all.  "Okay, Cisco lets see if you can do this and probably fuck over everyone and everything."  Good thing Cisco chickened out.

[slayer2]

That was really bad. Maybe Guggenheim's hack-handed, craptastic influence is rubbing off. So many problems.

 

First:

The fact that Barry Allen is trumping Joe's feelings for his own biological son is absolute, unequivocal garbage. You expect me to believe that Pappa Joe would give Barry anything other than an ultimatum when his youngest child is trapped somewhere with Zoom. "I can't ask you to give up your speed."? Huh? YES bitch, you CAN! Especially when (like always) this whole fucking thing was Barry's goddamned fault, and especially since I'm beginning to reckon that his whole reasoning for "stopping Zoom" had more to do with ego than anything else. I mean if Harrison Wells was willing to let his Earth burn then so, dumbass, should you be willing. 

 

Second:

This is all Barry's fault, Cisco, Caitlin, Joe, Harrison all told him to let it go and he proceeded anyway because, Barry knows everything right? It's not as if he's been in this situation before and had his ass handed to him....oh wait.

 

Third:

Barry should not come before Iris and Wally. Period, End of Sentence. End of Paragraph. End of Story. Close the fucking book. Intimating anything that remotely resembles Joe choosing this selfish, egotistical asshat over his own children screams of weird and disturbing racial connotations which I really don't want to associate with The Flash right now (or anytime). This isn't TVD, straighten up and fly right, show!

 

Fourth:

 

How many times does Zoom have to prove that his speed isn't the only thing that speeds up when he gets faster. Also his brain. He is smarter than you Barry, I know that's a difficult thing for your dumb, slow ass to grasp but believe it or not he is still fucking smarter than you. He will ALWAYS be smarter than you, even when you have superfriends. Even without being super-duper fast he would still beat you with your little red pants down because he is always a kajillion steps ahead of you mentally. You're like Pinky and he's the fucking brain, he.is.the.fucking.brain.

 

Fifth:

Now that Wally has been kidnapped as a means to fuck up Barry's life, wouldn't it be fair to include him in on the dumbass secret society that can't seem to do anything right when they take cues from Barry Allen? I mean I think he's earned it.

 

Sixth:

 

Only the twu wuv of Caitlin could get through to a decades old serial killer who feeds on power and pain like Barry clears a buffet. Right. Thanks for the last minute damsel, show. Super fun!

 

Seventh:

 

This is some season 3, Arrow grade shit. This whole episode was a damn joke culminating in Iris considering Barry because of....destiny. Destiny? Nevermind their fantastic chemistry and their amazing friendship and genuine love for each other, let's put it all on the line for....destiny. Just like Hawkgirl is destined to be with that winged dude because oh, he told her so. Fuck off show. After the Arrow bullshit I am so not here for this shit. Gah!  WHAT IS THIS FUCKERY?!

Edited April 21, 2016 by slayer2

[TwistedandBored]

Oliver likes to keep secrets that would actually help his team and Barry likes doing the thing everyone warns him would cause major harm. Seriously, Arrowverse writers, stop making your superheroes dumb af! At least let them learn from their mistakes. 

 

Teddy as Hunter was freaking hot and I am totally here for it but I really didn't think this story needed complications like this. Should have kept Jay/Hunter separate. 

[kirinan]

It's hard for me to read sarcasm online so I'm just going to answer this as if it's a real question...

 

No, it was a real question. I've never watched Arrow, so I had no idea who Laurel was. Thanks for filling me in, tarotx!

[Ruby25]

The Iris and destiny thing- the least the show should have done was to drop hints every once in while from the beginning of the season that Iris was still into Barry. If they had just done that, then it'd be easier to buy the idea of destiny making her brave enough to start to pursue it now, instead of feeling a little bit out of nowhere.

 

Seriously, how hard would it have been to just make sure we see that she still had underlying feelings for him, or was a tiny bit sad about Patty, or something. It seemed like she has nothing but platonic feelings towards him this entire season without the slightest hint that there might be anything else. She was totally indifferent to him dating Patty. So now, this just kinda seems like she's giving into destiny, because she thinks it's "supposed" to happen.

 

That's some really bad writing, and it would have been SO EASY to just make sure the seeds were still there all along. C'mon, people. That's just basic writing.

[AmySchultz]

Why do superheroes on TV feel like they have to keep their end of the bargain with villains? I will never understand that.

[AudienceofOne]

I know it annoys people when I mention it but YMMV and all. Whenever Iris talks about Barry I mentally insert "my brother" into the conversation. Because that's all I see. From her especially. "So maybe it's destiny for me to be with my brother. Never occurred to me before, on account of him being my brother, but I guess I can't argue with fate!"

[johntfs]

That was really bad. Maybe Guggenheim's hack-handed, craptastic influence is rubbing off. So many problems.

 

First:

The fact that Barry Allen is trumping Joe's feelings for his own biological son is absolute, unequivocal garbage. You expect me to believe that Pappa Joe would give Barry anything other than an ultimatum when his youngest child is trapped somewhere with Zoom. "I can't ask you to give up your speed."? Huh? YES bitch, you CAN! Especially when (like always) this whole fucking thing was Barry's goddamned fault, and especially since I'm beginning to reckon that his whole reasoning for "stopping Zoom" had more to do with ego than anything else. I mean if Harrison Wells was willing to let his Earth burn then so, dumbass, should you be willing. 

 

Second:

This is all Barry's fault, Cisco, Caitlin, Joe, Harrison all told him to let it go and he proceeded anyway because, Barry knows everything right? It's not as if he's been in this situation before and had his ass handed to him....oh wait.

 

Third:

Barry should not come before Iris and Wally. Period, End of Sentence. End of Paragraph. End of Story. Close the fucking book. Intimating anything that remotely resembles Joe choosing this selfish, egotistical asshat over his own children screams of weird and disturbing racial connotations which I really don't want to associate with The Flash right now (or anytime). This isn't TVD, straighten up and fly right, show!

 

Fourth:

 

How many times does Zoom have to prove that his speed isn't the only thing that speeds up when he gets faster. Also his brain. He is smarter than you Barry, I know that's a difficult thing for your dumb, slow ass to grasp but believe it or not he is still fucking smarter than you. He will ALWAYS be smarter than you, even when you have superfriends. Even without being super-duper fast he would still beat you with your little red pants down because he is always a kajillion steps ahead of you mentally. You're like Pinky and he's the fucking brain, he.is.the.fucking.brain.

 

Fifth:

Now that Wally has been kidnapped as a means to fuck up Barry's life, wouldn't it be fair to include him in on the dumbass secret society that can't seem to do anything right when they take cues from Barry Allen? I mean I think he's earned it.

 

Sixth:

 

Only the twu wuv of Caitlin could get through to a decades old serial killer who feeds on power and pain like Barry clears a buffet. Right. Thanks for the last minute damsel, show. Super fun!

 

Seventh:

 

This is some season 3, Arrow grade shit. This whole episode was a damn joke culminating in Iris considering Barry because of....destiny. Destiny? Nevermind their fantastic chemistry and their amazing friendship and genuine love for each other, let's put it all on the line for....destiny. Just like Hawkgirl is destined to be with that winged dude because oh, he told her so. Fuck off show. After the Arrow bullshit I am so not here for this shit. Gah!  WHAT IS THIS FUCKERY?!

First and third.  Biology isn't everything.  Emotional connections aren't genetic.  Wally is still basically an acquaintance who shares half of Joe's DNA.  Barry is still essentially his son.  Barry's been Joe's son for fifteen years.  Wally's been in that role for what?  15 weeks?

 

Two.  Yeah, this is pretty totally Barry's fault.

 

Fourth: Not really true.  Zoom has mostly been coating on power.  When Barry used his history against him, Barry beat his ass.  He'd won.  Barry didn't lose because Zoom was smarter, he lost because he chose to gloat and do a victory dance.  He lost because he chose to be dumber.

 

Fifth:  That's probably fair, though I wouldn't be surprised if Wally caught a clue on his own,.  Getting kidnapped by a supervillain from another dimension has probably sparked the idea that there's something a little off at the West home.

 

Sixth:  By circumstance and choice, Hunter Zoloman has had a pretty shitty loveless life.  His only known associates as Zoom (who are now likely all dead) were evil assholes out for themselves.  Caitlin cared about "Jay" for Jay's own sake.  Figure that's something Hunter hasn't experienced all that much.  I don't think love will change him, but he might want him enough to do a "marry me or I'll disembowel your friends" kind of thing.

 

Seventh: It seemed to me that Iris was speaking more out of frustration and despair when talking about her "destiny." Like "Fuck it, maybe I should get with Barry since that's whre the multiverse is pushing me and it'll be easier than hitting the dating scene again."

[slayer2]

 

Wally is still basically an acquaintance who shares half of Joe's DNA.  Barry is still essentially his son.  Barry's been Joe's son for fifteen years.  Wally's been in that role for what?  15 weeks?

 

Nope, not buying that. If you have biological kids, unless you're a sociopath it's unlikely you're going to regard them as a mere acquaintance who shares half your DNA.  Also. it's still Barry's fault. The whole damn thing is Barry's fault. Zoom would have died if Barry just gave it some time but noooooo. So Joe's youngest paying the price over Barry's speed? Not even his life just his speed? Yeah, unlikely. Also I stand by everything else I posted, with a song in my heart and an "anti-speedforce" gun at the ready (that btw will do nothing against someone who has the speed of Zoom and can move a million times faster than any bullet or bolt of electricity as a result of Team Flash fondling their collective triggers).

 

Found this courtesy of a guy named "James" on youtube and got a kick out of it:

 

"My name is Barry Allen. And I am the stupidest person alive. To the outside world, I am an ordinary forensic scientist, but secretly, with the help of my pseudo-intellectual friends, I make dumb decisions and find other people smarter than me. I hunted down the man who terrorised my family, but in doing so, I revealed myself to be more retarded than previously anticipated and sacrificed the only unique thing about me. I am, an idiot.”

Edited April 21, 2016 by slayer2

[phoenics]

Seventh: It seemed to me that Iris was speaking more out of frustration and despair when talking about her "destiny." Like "Fuck it, maybe I should get with Barry since that's whre the multiverse is pushing me and it'll be easier than hitting the dating scene again."

LMAO! I didn't see that at all - Iris looked really dreamy about that actually. Hopeful. Happy.

 

^^^Yeah - I don't see resignation.  I see hope.  Excitement.  Interest.

 

I'm just hopeful we'll get more PoV from Iris on what she means - eventually she's going to have to explain to Barry how she's feeling - I guess. Who knows - the show might throw an obstacle her way and we'll be forced to wait. Again, lol.

 

The Iris and destiny thing- the least the show should have done was to drop hints every once in while from the beginning of the season that Iris was still into Barry. If they had just done that, then it'd be easier to buy the idea of destiny making her brave enough to start to pursue it now, instead of feeling a little bit out of nowhere.

 

Seriously, how hard would it have been to just make sure we see that she still had underlying feelings for him, or was a tiny bit sad about Patty, or something. It seemed like she has nothing but platonic feelings towards him this entire season without the slightest hint that there might be anything else. She was totally indifferent to him dating Patty. So now, this just kinda seems like she's giving into destiny, because she thinks it's "supposed" to happen.

 

That's some really bad writing, and it would have been SO EASY to just make sure the seeds were still there all along. C'mon, people. That's just basic writing.

I *think* those scenes where Iris was mentioning Netflix and Chilling for E2 Westallen and "Promise me if we ever get married" and "you do have something here for you" (and that last one was Pre-E2) were all supposed to be hints that Iris' feelings were changing. The problem is the direction - they didn't devote enough beats in the shooting of the episode to linger on Iris' face - they didn't frame her in the shot alone when she was lingering on Barry or looking like she got doused with cold water when Barry was oblivious to her flirting/heart eyes. It was there - CP definitely added those looks, but without the direction from the camera, it just wasn't obvious enough.

So - not necessarily the writing - it was more an issue with the direction of those scenes.

I do agree though that the show missed opportunities to show more build up to this... like when Iris was in the hospital or even when Barry was initially broken by Zoom - it wouldn't have taken much, but for some very inexplicable reason they didn't do it. It tells me that at the time, they hadn't decided which way to go with the storyline around Iris and Barry - perhaps they were hoping for something else to "take off" <-- major side eye for that BS. TPTB ain't slick.

Edited April 21, 2016 by phoenics

[catrice2]

I can't understand why they thought this episode was necessary.   Unless Zoom is going to turn Caitlyn into another Killer Frost I can't imagine much more boring than watching her as a captive.

 

Of all the people for Zoom to take...Wally??  Was Jay even around while the whole Wally drama was going on?  Of all of the people to take, Wally?? 

 

I no longer care who is in the mask, or about anything else related to Earth 2, or Earth 1 for that matter. 

 

Of course I was right about the glasses being important...that was just telegraphed. 

 

Cisco just gets more and more annoying, and BRILLIANT Barry just looks dumber and dumber.  

 

So...all of a sudden Iris has been giving Barry "looks" and no one has noticed but Caitlyn??  They certainly made it sound like the only reason she was interested in him was because she was supposed to be.  What a way to write a love story!  At least we didn't have to see her with her boss...but that could still happen.  Not ruling out a Patty return. 

 

I fear for Joe's safety.  The writing on this show has dropped DRAMATICALLY from last year ( similar to Sleepy Hollow and Arrow) and there is no telling what they will do. 

[slayer2]

 

I fear for Joe's safety.  The writing on this show has dropped DRAMATICALLY from last year ( similar to Sleepy Hollow and Arrow) and there is no telling what they will do.

 

 

I concur, Many a show hath there been seen, with stupid juice augmenting their fresh, dewey faces. They've been killing off people left and right on tv lately, all minorities and all for seemingly no good damn reason. I don't know what's in the water but I hope the Flash writers aren't partaking. Although with this episode in the can I grow more and more concerned. I can't stop laughing at the sheer stupidity. It's epic!

[phoenics]

I'm worried for Joe too.  :(

 

I don't want him to die.

[CletusMusashi]

I'll also add that Caitlin has pretty much been reduced to Fay Wray opposite Zoom's King Kong.

Grodd did it first. And better.

[Cthulhudrew]

Grodd did it first. And better.

 

Maybe Grodd will pop out onto Earth-1, manhandle Zoom for threatening Caitlin, and shake his head dismissively at Barry's stupidity and next season the show will be changed to Grodd and Friends. :D

[Jeebus Cripes]

I'm not sure that Jay is made up. I feel like the show wouldn't screw with canon to the point of making the beloved Jay Garrick a non-existent person. I think he's the guy in the mask somehow.

 

I think he is, too. Isn't Jay a scientist? How the hell does this Hunter guy know all this science crap?

 

On a shallow note: I totally concur that Hunter is super hot, and evil looks good on Teddy Sears.

[thuganomics85]

What has happened to this show?  I remember enjoying the ride last year?  But now?  I just get so frustrated with all these characters.

 

Hate to say it, but I give up on Barry.  He's a moron.  A big fucking moron.  At this point, he and Oliver are in a battle for who is the worst (safe to say, Kara is easily the smartest by default.)  He decides to open a portal and bring fucking Zoom back, despite barely having any kind of plan at first and despite the fact that every time they met, Zoom beat him like Barry owes him money.  They finally get a plan that works, thanks to Harry finally realizing that Jay kind of looks like Hunter (sorry, but there is no way I will buy Harry only figuring this out now.  He say he was one of the most famous serial killers on Earth 2, and that beard wasn't that good.  Stupid show...), but then Barry just monologues like a big, dumb idiot, letting Hunter easily escape and kidnap Wally.

 

Oh, and they just simply give him the Speed Force, even after they have Wally back because... I don't know.  No take backs?  Don't want to break one of the 12 Commandments?  Did they do a pinkie swear earlier and that can never be broken?  I can't believe they didn't at least try something.  Instead, they just made a powerful nutso even more powerful.  And I doubt he's just going to retire.  So, congrats, guys.  Any carnage he causes is going to be partially their fault.  But mainly Barrys.  Because he's an idiot.

 

Oh, and Caitlin gets kidnapped, because that's apparently her thing, when she isn't spouting exposition or making doe-eyes at boyfriends who are destined to die.

 

Credit to Candice Patton for delivering that destiny line with a straight face.  Woman's a trooper for putting up with all the shitty writing Iris gets tossed her way.

 

Cisco worrying about becoming "Vader" was probably the only part I really liked.

 

I wish I could care more about Joe and Wally, but I still feel like I barely know Wally.

 

I'm honestly not even enjoying Harry as much, due to the crap writing and Tom Cavanagh restoring to the raspy whisper voice over and over again.  I know he is way better then this.  I have to think it's someone behind the scenes who is demanding he sound like a low-rent version of Christian Bale's Batman.  But I want it to stop.  Please make it stop!

 

Maybe I'm just in a real bad mood, and need to take a moment, but this was the first time where I wondered why am I still watching.  I never even thought that way about Arrow, because I at least have been invested enough in the characters to want to see it through and can be entertained when it goes south.  This is just.... dull, I guess.  And while the cast is still talented, it just isn't enough.  I know I'll finish through this season, but I really hope they get it together soon, or I might actually seriously consider bailing.

Edited April 22, 2016 by thuganomics85

[FiveByFive]

The fact that Barry Allen is trumping Joe's feelings for his own biological son is absolute, unequivocal garbage. You expect me to believe that Pappa Joe would give Barry anything other than an ultimatum when his youngest child is trapped somewhere with Zoom. "I can't ask you to give up your speed."? Huh? YES bitch, you CAN!

 

Nope, not buying that. If you have biological kids, unless you're a sociopath it's unlikely you're going to regard them as a mere acquaintance who shares half your DNA.  Also. it's still Barry's fault. The whole damn thing is Barry's fault. Zoom would have died if Barry just gave it some time but noooooo. So Joe's youngest paying the price over Barry's speed? 

Joe loves Wally but, one of this things this show got right, is that Wally doesn't know Joe that well and Joe doesn't know Wally that well and Joe has been very patient in dealing with Wally and realized a while ago not to "force" him into a "typical" father/son relationship. So while they may not be all hugs and back pats, Joe left the ball in Wally's court a long time and Wally is finally coming around. 

 

As for Barry, you can't take a kid into your home for years, feed him, clothe him and send him off to college and not think of him as something similar to a "son." He works with Joe. He is his daughter's "best friend." Joe knows Barry isn't his biological son but he does love him and care about him. Just because Wally joined their lives doesn't mean that's all going to go away. It would be cruel and unrealistic if it did.

 

There's no reason he can't care about both of them.  

 

And that "caring about them both" is why Joe didn't force Barry into making a decision but instead told him how he felt and asked what Barry wanted to do. Afterall he had a strong hand in raising Barry and of course Barry chose to give up his speed to save Wally. I don't think there's a circumstance under which Barry would have refused unless he had another plan. I think if Barry had of said, "NOPE!" Joe would have popped off but he gave Barry the chance to make the right decision. 

 

As for the "fault" issue: Yes, Wally getting kidnapped is mostly Barry's fault however it's a lot like the, "Into the Woods" song, "Your Fault." Barry didn't put a gun to anyone's head to help him. They all chose to, foolishly. That includes Joe who convinced Wells that he should let Barry do what he wanted and help him bring Zoom over when Wells was smartly against it. That includes Wells who built a machine which helped CIsco "vibe" a portal. That includes Cisco who eventually helped created the portal. They're all accessories to the "crime" except for Wally who doesn't know a damn thing. So I can't say this is all Barry's fault when these super smart "scientists" and a police officer all said, "Ugh! Fine! We'll help but we're gonna be protesty about it for a few minutes then go along with your halfcocked plan!"

Edited April 21, 2016 by FiveByFive

[slayer2]

And that "caring about them both" is why Joe didn't force Barry into making a decision but instead told him how he felt and asked what Barry wanted to do. Afterall he had a strong hand in raising Barry and of course Barry chose to give up his speed to save Wally.

The point I'm making is Wally's life > Barry's speed. It wasn't a fatherly thing to do. If you're a father and one of you're sons has to give up something extraneous to save the other, of course you're going to ask him to do it. It wasn't realistic to how a (loving or decent) father would behave, the amount of time he's known Wally for is irrelevant. Any of his 3 children's lives is worth infinitely more than Barry's speed. Period. It also veers dangerously when put in context with the way Joe has been favouring Barry this season over both Wally AND Iris. They show has to tread carefully with that.

Whether or not Barry put a gun to their head doesn't mean too much because as Joe said, if Barry is determined to do something he will find a way to do it, whether pressuring Harrison or Cisco or whomever, he would have found a way to make the stupid choice and put everyone's life at risk, so yes it is on Barry. He's done similar selfish things in the past and he should know better by now and considering it puts other people at risk the decision shouldn't be his alone and yet....there it is, Barry making stupid choices completely independent of what everyone else is saying.

Barry knows Team Flash loves him, Barry knows he is doing something that is profoundly dangerous, Barry knows his track record with Zoom ain't so hot. Barry knows Team Flash is loyal to a fault and he also knows that no matter how selfish, stupid or unsafe his choices after a certain amount of pestering and pressure they're going to help him out of sheer concern for his well-being, that is rather like putting an emotional gun to the heads of loved ones when you pressure them into as he did Cisco because he knew he would eventually cave to his request out of sheer guilt and concern.

Cisco had legitimate reasons for not wanting to get involved, and Barry basically laughed them off (he actually laughed), not for nothing but those concerns will probably come into play later on. It was an asshatty Oliver Queen move Barry made and by now he should know better. Now given that Barry put Joe's son and Iris' brother and his own family in danger then no one but Barry should have been expected to get him out of it no questions asked. But the whole episode was fucked up like that, Joe asking Barry permission for Wally to live with them in Joe's house? The fuck! I didn't see him asking Iris how she felt about it.

A line like "I can't ask you to..." should never be uttered by a father with respect to the return of their son, EVER. Nor should Barry be saying things like "No, it's fine" which makes a clear statement that HE is convincing Joe he should do it. Joe shouldn't be leaving the life of a kid (his kid) who had nothing to do with this, up to chance or anyone else's decision. It was all very "Well let's see what Barry wants to do." That's offensive and that's not parenting. If the show was going to have Joe tell Barry to give up the speedforce they should have made it more obvious because it didn't read that way to me at all.

Aside: the show needs a Xander Harris the kind of truth teller that will threaten to cut a bitch if Caitlin doesn't come home safely, 'cause that boy and his ego are out of control.

Edited April 21, 2016 by slayer2

[slayer2]

Two points right off the bat:

- They really went ahead and gave Zoom Barry's speed? After I got Wally back, I would have been like "Well, here's a speed bullet in the forehead, Jay!" Stupid Team Flash!

- Reverse Flash is Faster than Zoom? Jay/Hunter said doing a speed mirage was beyond him, but Thawne did it more than once. But Thawne couldn't get up enough Speed Force to time travel, which Barry can do and Barry's slower than Zoom. I can't keep up. The Speed Force has no rules!

There is one rule apparently, everyone using Speedforce from Earth One is touched by a deep and profound stupidity that stirs the waking stupidity in others and spreads like a contagion. Yes Barry, that means you.

Edited April 21, 2016 by slayer2