S06.E14: Twice As Far

[mornnoch]

Negan's group just sucks. This time they're retreating because they can't take on two people with their guns down, one man hiding and one on his knees, because once again all they want to do is TALK. Dwight straight up killed Denise so why just stop there and kill Rosita, Eugene, and Daryl? They want to be lead back to ASZ instead of possibly just finding and casing the place themselves. So dumb. Just like that dumb Mole Woman who wanted Maggie to tell her where ASZ is so she can go there to escape instead of finding it herself. This group hasn't learned anything from the biker gang being blown to rice krispies, the girl group being killed and Carol burning the men along with most of them being killed at the security base. Why are they wasting so much time talking?? Negan's group is just flat out pathetic. Unless Negan is purposely sending out the dumb ones and keeping the badasses for later. 

The saviors follow their protocol. Meeting a new armed group kill one of them, take everything, follow them to their home. This usually works, especially when in the majority. When Dwight realizes the fight could cost too much he orders the retreat. He knows they'll find our group eventually and then come back with more fighters, making sure they've an even bigger advantage.

Edited March 21, 2016 by mornnoch

[Ellaria]

Scenes that only include Abraham and Eugene are horrible. Those two cartoony characters are some of the worst on the show and it's only emphasized when they're alone on screen together. But good for Eugene to take a bite out of that dick (though Dwight got up pretty quickly, I don't think any man would be able to walk away so easily after such a painful "experience").

 

Sasha - don't replace Bob with Abraham. Please. 

 

Rosita is still mostly tough and hot. And might be hooking up with Spencer. She's been on the show for three seasons now and still hardly a character.

 

I can deal with Eugene, mostly because I view him as a bit of comic relief. Abe, on the other hand, ugh! I'm not rooting for his death because its handy to keep him around (note his assistance during the attack from Dwight) but I wish they would do something with him that is less "cartoony." And yes, Sasha could do better.

 

The dick bite seemed unrealistic to me. Dwight was holding a gun, and he has 2 hands, but he made no move to pull Eugene off of him. Also, how easy is it to bite through jeans like that? (Nope, never actually tried...) But it was an entertaining scene.

 

I thought the same thing. I was expecting him to shoot Eugene in the head. Guess the dick bite caught him by surprise.

 

I like the Carol & Tobin pairing. I hope that she comes back in a healthier frame of mind.

Edited March 21, 2016 by Ellaria Sand

[halkatla]

Rosita and Daryl look really good together. I wish there could be more there.

[Haleth]

Argh!  Denise was making me crazy all episode:  The way the camera focused on her whenever she was alone, I figured something was going to happen to her.  Snooping around in the pharmacy.  (Don't open the door, Denise!)  Going for the cooler.  (Don't open the door, Denise!)  Speechifying.  (Get to the point, Denise!  (Ha!))  The suspense was terrible, it was almost a relief when she was finally shot.

 

Still, I don't much care about any of the ASZers.  I'd sacrifice the whole lot (maybe with the exception of Aaron) if we could keep CDB intact.

 

As for Carol, I get it.  (Don't like it, but get it.)  She doesn't care if she gets killed while out on her own.  She doesn't want anyone she cares about to either kill or be killed while protecting her since she has checked out.  I hope it isn't the last we see of her.  Warrior Carol is probably my favorite character.

 

Eugene was the highlight of the episode for me and Josh McDermott was hilarious on TWD.

[Bad Example]

If Eugene's bullet idea pays off he's worth this weight in mullet gold!!

 

I guess it is a pretty obvious idea, but seriously, my heart just filled with pride when he said what he wanted to do.  And then he was so mean.  And wrong.  That's what the difference is to me when comparing Eugene's dismissal of Abraham to A's dismissal of Rosita.  I'm pretty sure Abraham knew what he was doing.  Eugene lacks self-awareness.

Still, the whole thing made me like A more.  He knows who he is, and I like that he's a guy who still followed Eugene after what E said.  

BUT... being who he is... he doesn't necessarily seem like a match to Sasha because she just seems, well, smarter than he is.  I just don't see how they line up. But I disagree with the previous poster who thought that Abraham would lose interest in Sasha once the next one comes along.  I don't think we have enough evidence of that.  Rosita seems to have always been his convenient, for-now girl.  The tragedy is only that she wasn't on the same page... and the character flaw in Abraham was that he knew that and wasn't honest with Rosita.  He may feel differently about Sasha and this may play out differently.  Abraham was loyal to his wife and kids, not romantically loyal to Rosita.  There's not enough info here to suss out his pattern.  

 

Carol has to know that all of CDB is gonna try to bring her back right?  I like to think she went to find whatever happened to Morales and his family.

 

It would be great to find out somehow that they're still alive.  

In any case, I was being all mopey about Carol taking off and feeling awful about it... and then the preview of Rick asking "what time did she leave?" just snapped me right out of it.  I was accepting Carol's decision, but Rick?  Rick is not putting up with that shit.  

 

They want to be lead back to ASZ instead of possibly just finding and casing the place themselves. So dumb. 

I thought, "Why not? Lead them right back.  That'll go well for them."  (Unfortunately Dwight & gang are too volatile not to decide they only need ONE person to lead them back...but I still like the scenario of "Sasha! Rick! Want to give these motherfuckers a nice Wolf welcome?"

Of course, that would mean that CDB had planned ahead for that sort of scenario, and they're not so much with the plans that require a lot of forethought.  

 

As for Dead Lesbian Trope?  There's no way to win that one.  Everybody dies here, no one gets special flower status.  

[SimoneS]

I thought the opening montage with the Alexandria routine was really well done - the longer the Gimple regime goes on the more they get a lot out of stretching the limits of their format and premise with various talented directors, they let them try different things and I think most of those innovations work on average. (In fairness I think a lot of that started with Glen Mazzara, who had the incredible silent? opening sequence that began Season 3 and changed the whole attitude of the show and characters.) The slo-mo music moment at the tracks after the firefight was a bit maudlin, though.

 

I liked the artistic touch to the opening montage also. It conveyed the daily routine of Alexandria without having a character dryly tell us. I also liked that silent opening scene in season 3. It is so effective in showing us how far Rick had taken them as a group and how their survive skills had developed. The music after the firefight let down the episode down which surprises me because I usually like the music choices. 

[nodorothyparker]

This episode is the first I can remember in a very long while that gave off a genuine horror movie vibe.  All the waiting for something to happen, the sense early on that something very bad was definitely coming, whatever the hell all that was in the back room at the apothecary, the prerequisite blonde girl wandering off repeatedly and eventually doing something that got her killed.

 

I'm at a point I mostly don't mind Abraham despite often wishing the show included an Abraham to normal human English dictionary but I do really wish he'd knock off all the shit references.  He may be hairless by choice but he's not a 12-year-old boy.  I don't know what either Rosita or Sasha see in him but different strokes and all that.  Eugene has weirdly grown on me.  He's often a source of much needed humor and I kind of like that an unabashed geek has found his place in the ZA among all the badasses and people who might as well be comic superheroes.  (And I don't think you get much more meta than that.)

 

I HATE Carol's choice to leave but I can see where it was coming from.  She's been carrying a lot for quite awhile now.  The unseen weeks or months between No Way Out and when we next saw her bopping along with nothing more pressing on her mind than foraging for baking supplies and flirting with Tobin gave her a taste of peace and normalcy again and time to really think about things.  But that was almost immediately followed by Rick rolling up to announce that they were going to go start killing people again.  She can't reconcile the pictures of domesticity and chief cookie baker with that of the pragmatic killing machine anymore.  I don't have to like it and I can already hear the Carol haters ginning up to blame her for everything that's probably coming next and probably would have happened anyway since Rick decided to go preemtively poke the bear.  Whatever happens though still almost has to be better than her chasing ghost Ed in a wedding dress around a field or rolling around bloody in a public street.

Edited March 21, 2016 by nodorothyparker

[ghoulina]

I am disappointed in Sasha hooking up with Abraham. Baby, you are selling yourself short! You can do better. Even in the midst of the zombie apocalypse, I know she can do better.

 

Me too. Hell, chaining up a Zed and making him your boyfriend (ala Fido) would be better than Dolphin Smooth and his ten million a day turd jokes. 

 

I think Dwight is clearly with the Negan group. The scheme he was trying to enforce sounded exactly like what the Hilltop said Negan would do. Kill one just terrify the rest into doing their bidding. But what changed him? He still seemed like a half decent individual when Daryl saved him.

 

I think he's probably with Negan's group now too. I'm guessing he got tired of trying to evade/please Negan and decided it would just be easier to join up with him.

 

 I have to remind myself that Carol was an abused woman, and that leaves lasting scars. In the beginning stages of the ZA, survival was the ONLY thing on their minds. Then Sophia went missing and died. Then the prison, terminus, the Gov, and horror of The Grove. The Grove is (IMO) and having to kill a young girl is the thing that sent Carol down this slope. I think the "normality" of Alexandria and having some time to actually think has given Carol a chance to think about her life and everything and she is reflecting on the events of the past 2 years and she cannot reconcile baking cookies and wearing cute cardigans and then killing people. It doesn't jibe for her anymore. I also think that Morgan's view has also influenced her.  It has made her think about it. I would think that there would be much more depression and PTSD amongst all of the population. They are just choosing not to show that, but it would be a greater likelihood that more people are suffering than not.

 

Yea, I totally get all that. I didn't think it was unreasonable that Carol would have a crisis of conscience, a breakdown of some sorts. I just don't find her up and leaving the group all that believable. At least when Rick had his breakdown he stayed with the group, but planted gardens. I think what she was going through when she was taken hostage last week made a lot of sense. She meets this woman who is hard and cruel and that woman has likely killed just as many as Carol has, and she had a regular ol background like Carol had. And Carol thinks - "Damn, I hope I don't end up like this woman. Wait....AM I this woman?" And she's freaking out. And she hesitates. But then Maggie and her baby almost get it, and that snaps her back into reality. I think it would have made sense if THAT were her journey. 

 

When she and Daryl were burying Olivia, she told him that what he said was right, he was right the first time he said it. I assumed she meant that killing Dwight when he had the chance. So it seemed like she had gone through something, but she got it. She understood that they HAVE to kill people, and it's not necessarily going to ruin them. CBD may have become pretty hard, but they're still not the same as Negan's group. They're not going around killing people because they can, because they want to scare them and take all their shit. I think Carol is bright enough to know that. 

 

I just think they're taking it a bit too far, with having her leave the group. And I'm worried they're doing it as another plot device, to have her separated from the group and then come back and save their asses. Once again. Sigh....

[Bad Example]

I don't have to like it and I can already hear the Carol haters ginning up to blame her for everything that's probably coming next and probably would have happened anyway since Rick decided to go preemtively poke the bear.  

I am a Carol lover, but by leaving when they know something is coming up, she's lowered the survival chances for her friends.

Then again, I wish we had a better sense of if they know something big is coming or if they really think they neutralized Negan.  I'd also like Carol to make a list of how many people are alive because of her.  

[ghoulina]

This episode is the first I can remember in a very long while that gave off a genuine horror movie vibe.

 

So agree. I've been watching this show for so long that I rarely get scared anymore. But last night I felt very tense during a lot of the scenes. This was honestly an episode that had me from start to finish, in so many ways. 

[cincivic]

Wehn Abe was outside talking with Sasha, whose house was it? Didn't Group B (Abe, Rosita, Glenn, Eugen, Maggie, Sasha, Tara) all live in the house next to Rick and Group A? I assume Abraham moved out when he ditched Rosita and moved to another house. Did Rosita move in with Spencer? Isn't this budding Abe/Sasha pairing going to be awkward if they all lived under the same roof? I would think there are more homes available since the Wolves and Walker invasion.

[Arnella]

I am not a shipper so don't really care about who is with who but I'm trying to figure out the story value of the Abraham/Sasha/Rosita stuff and hoping it is not just soap opera filler.

I'm glad that Sasha is choosing life (as in relationship = future)  but Abraham?  They couldn't have her choose life with some unattached guy like the one in Rosita's bed?

So Rosita still has Abraham's back in battle which instantly resolves their conflict?  Then why make any?

I find this all really annoying unless it plays into some bigger survival storyline down the road.

[nodorothyparker]

I am a Carol lover, but by leaving when they know something is coming up, she's lowered the survival chances for her friends.

Then again, I wish we had a better sense of if they know something big is coming or if they really think they neutralized Negan.  I'd also like Carol to make a list of how many people are alive because of her.  

 

 

Judging by the line "I can't love anyone if I can't kill for them" or something close to that in her note, she probably thinks she isn't any kind of help to them.  Her hesitating last week very easily could have gotten Maggie and herself killed and she probably doesn't trust herself to be able to compartmentalize anymore to just do it.

 

I'm really frustrated too that we got no real sense of what their thinking is on the threat level at this point.  They clearly recognized that the attack this episode meant that it's not over but did they know that at the beginning or was all of that just random guard duty just in case?

Edited March 21, 2016 by nodorothyparker

[Ashura77]

I am watching the episode right now, and honestly, as nice as the opening sequence was, that dreadful feeling of "Days of our lives" just washed over me when Daryl and Carol had their little talk. Something I would have loved before, but as the writing of the show has become weak and shallow, even Carol and Pookie have become stale...

Though, on another note, hahahaha Daryl and driving stick, hilarious :D, as an European who always had stick-cars I always find it too amusing when people have a hard time managing it :D

[Caelicola]

Can't stand that term, 'Man Pain.' Like male character's emotional pain isn't worthy of attention just because they are men. There is no equivalent dismissive term for female pain.

 

You're right that it's an annoying term, and I'm guilty of using it somewhat indiscriminately, but there's a difference between legitimate male emotional pain and forced, sterile male pain that takes precedence over other people's. This is the third time that a female character has been killed just so that Daryl can get to feel sad/guilty about it, and every single time there would have been a female character whose pain would have been more important and appropriate; we saw more of Daryl's search and anguish for Sophia than Carol's, more of Daryl's search and guilt for Beth than Maggie's, now Tara is out of town when her girlfriend gets killed and we get Daryl angsting over it. Men's emotional pain is just as meaningful and worthy of respect and attention as women's, but sometimes it's completely unwarranted and takes away the meaning and respect that a woman's pain or death should get. That's when it becomes manpain. Sasha got a bit of its female equivalent last year, but then again, she was the one who should have mourned Bob and Tyreese most of all, and then they dropped the ball pretty hard by having her get better after one praying session with Maggie and FPP, of all fucking people. And the reason why there isn't a term for the female equivalent is mostly that it happens very rarely to women, unless the canon it happens in is explicitely female-lead, but it's a common storytelling and character-building device for men. Now, in a lot of cases the term is used unfairly, but there are instances in which it applies.

Mostly, I feel like they don't really know what to do with Daryl anymore, so they alternate between having him look cool, because Norman Reedus is inherently cool, and having him mope about stuff, because Norman Reedus can do mopey. It's like they're not really interested in him as a character anymore.

 

Why are they wasting so much time talking?? Negan's group is just flat out pathetic. Unless Negan is purposely sending out the dumb ones and keeping the badasses for later. 

That would be pretty awesome, but it might make a bit too much sense for the show. They'll either suddenly get a competency upgrade, or CDB will suddenly forget everything they've learned about fighting. Or, someone will make a mistake that will screw everybody up, and the hiatus will be spent fighting increasingly aggressive fanwars.

[Potanical Pardon]

Funniest episode of TWD, maybe?

 

I am totally using the picking up a turd by the clean end line.

 

I had never tried Orange Crush or any orange drank ever in my life until that episode where Darryl and Rick went to go find it for Denise. It got me so motivated that I even went for the 24-pack. Poor Denise didn't even get to enjoy her Orange Crush. It's actually pretty good! Also tried Fanta a few days ago when I saw it somewhere...not as good. Anyways.

Edited March 21, 2016 by Potanical Pardon

[TattleTeeny]

 

 

Denise, this is for you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9mJuqBipE0

 

(Yeah, I'm horrible and going to Hell for that one)

Haha, that's Lisa Vanderpump in that video!

[Primetimer]

But the experience points aren't worth it for both of them.

Read the story

[ACW]

As for Dead Lesbian Trope? There's no way to win that one. Everybody dies here, no one gets special flower status.

Yeah, no.

Let's just say that the show just took a straight white male's distinctive comics death and gave it to Denise, while the SWM is being rewarded for bad behavior.

Edited March 21, 2016 by HalcyonDays
Tagged comic spoilers

[mrspidey]

Eugene: DING!!

Abe: GRATZ!!

[AndySmith]

RIP Denise. We hardly knew ye. I feel more bad for Tara than I do for you, but oh well.

I really hope Negan has superior numbers, because any threat his people might present at this point would definitely be from quantity, not quality. I mean, given from what we have seen of his people so far, it hasn't been all that impressive or intimidating.

 

Let's just say that the show just took a straight white male's distinctive comics death and gave it to Denise, while the SWM is being rewarded for bad behavior.

 

True,

but this isn't the first time the show mixed up a death from the comic and TV show.

Edited March 21, 2016 by HalcyonDays
Tagged comics spoilers

[Ottis]

The show just keeps doing the same thing over and over again.

 

Which is why 3 episodes ago I finally stopped watching a show I had followed literally for years, and now I only read the summaries here and some of the comments.

Negan's group is just flat out pathetic. Unless Negan is purposely sending out the dumb ones and keeping the badasses for later.

 

In that way, I suppose the show is doing something different there. After meeting group #72 that threatens Rick and gang, so far group #72 is lame. So the Negan face-to-face intro will be especially impactful, I'm guessing.

[diebartdie]

Did you mean the trip to the apothecary?  Because on the way back, when all the shit went down (& Denise was killed), they took the quickest way - following the train tracks.

No Im saying if Daryl had followed her advice and taken the train tracks AT FIRST as well as on the way back, they would have entirely missed D and the gang because they would have saved that extra 30 minutes or so. 30 minutes there, 30 minutes back puts them back to the truck an hour earlier then they actually were.

[kj4ever]

So Denise had "skills" because she allegedly grew up like Daryl but acted like a coward and stayed in Alexandria doing book club?  I call bullshit.  The writers threw that in there trying to make Denise's death seem more tragic to Daryl.  What a waste of a show.  She was just blah on screen anyway so why waste a whole show on her death?

[Caelicola]

Yeah, no.

Let's just say that the show just took a straight white male's distinctive comics death and gave it to Denise, while the SWM is being rewarded for bad behavior.

That's true, and awful, but they don't really follow the comics all that literally other than for general storylines and some visual imagery.

Dale died much later, Andrea is still alive in the comics, Judith is dead, Sophia is alive, Carol is dead, Daryl doesn't exist, Dale's death went to Bob, Tyreese's to Hershel, Reg was a woman, Deanna a man, Lizzie and Mika were boys, and so on.

I hate the message it sent, and the imagery involved, and I would definitely be happier if there were more LGBT+ characters (happier still if Abraham had gone, because I kinda hate him), but it isn't the first time a distinctive death was shuffled around and foisted onto another character. It wasn't the first time a character was killed by accident by someone who wanted to get someone else (Reg last season), or mid-sentence (Axel in season 3), or in a completely pointless way (Beth last season).

Did it suck? Yeah. There has to be a happy medium between killing LGBT+ characters for shock and keeping them under a dome of glass because they can't be killed otherwise it's a shitty trope, and the show definitely hasn't found it.

But at the same time, the complaints that LGBT couples don't get happy endings are a bit out of place for this show, where so far only one relationship has lasted longer than a season without one -or both- of its members dying, or one dumping the other with a romantic dingleberry reference. Or that they get killed with a higher frequency than straight characters, when about 80% of all named characters are now dead. The real problem is that the pool is much smaller to start with.

The solution would be the same as the solution for the POC problem this show has: introduce more LGBT characters and POC. But they have to kill off a ton of people to do that, because increasing the size of the cast right now is the last thing this show needs.

So, I see both the side of the argument that is hurt and outraged and the side that treats it as just another secondary character death, because IMO both have a point.

 

Edited because of comic spoilers that I didn't really think about. Thank you AndySmith!

Edited March 21, 2016 by HalcyonDays
Tagged quote of comic spoilers

[Pete Martell]

Which is why 3 episodes ago I finally stopped watching a show I had followed literally for years, and now I only read the summaries here and some of the comments.

 

Those 3 episodes are probably the best since season 2 or 4 in terms of consistency and good stuff. You might enjoy them. This one...eh.

Yeah, no.

Let's just say that the show just took a straight white male's distinctive comics death and gave it to Denise, while the SWM is being rewarded for bad behavior.

 

I see your point, but that's assuming the character in question will remain alive and

well, which is unlikely for most characters on the show. Not to mention that a straight white male (Axel) was given the same death as Denise - a death he did not get in the comics.

 

I think that the death in question actually fit Denise well, and wasn't about punishing her. I do agree there aren't enough lesbians on TV and that lesbians are constantly killed off and given unfair treatment, and I wouldn't have killed Denise off if I'd had the choice, but I think she had a pretty good arc and a memorable exit. 

Edited March 21, 2016 by HalcyonDays
Tagged comics spoilers

[SimoneS]

No Im saying if Daryl had followed her advice and taken the train tracks AT FIRST as well as on the way back, they would have entirely missed D and the gang because they would have saved that extra 30 minutes or so. 30 minutes there, 30 minutes back puts them back to the truck an hour earlier then they actually were.

 

It is hard to tell. If Dwight and his peeps were out scouting, it is likely that they would have come across Daryl, Rosita, and Eugene regardless. If Abraham had not left Eugene, he would have been caught also. I actually think that the train tracks are the most vulnerable place to be. It is easy to be seen and nothing to use for cover so I would stick to the trees. Regardless, I think that some situations simply cannot be avoided because you just cannot consider every eventuality.

Edited March 21, 2016 by SimoneS

[RustbeltWriter]

What Denise found in the pharmacy utility room was the most disturbing scene this show has produced in years. Bravo.

 

Killing Denise was a ridiculously stupid move. She was a good character with all kinds of room to grow. It was nice to see a character stretch themselves by doing something moderately dangerous but within a controlled environment. By killing off the character at this point in her development, the show once again displays a fondness for the shallow end of the drama pool.

 

I'm totally down with Carol leaving. These people are all experiencing PTSD. You can't just take an abuse victim like Carol, hang the BAMF label on her and pretend like nothing hurts her. Anyone would feel the negative effects of their life changing so rapidly but when you lose a child and then kill a child along with a couple dozen other people you can expect to have your sanity check out. Her leaving because she thinks being in Alexandria will force her to kill again is the most logical thing her damaged mind can come up with to prevent more horror.

 

However this Negan storyline plays out, I hope we're getting to the end of the cycle where Rick's group finds a place of sanctuary only to find themselves under attack by a bunch of psycho douchebags. It's just lazy writing at this point. 

Edited March 21, 2016 by RustbeltWriter

[nodorothyparker]

One of the things that did amuse me this episode was Rick's complete nonreaction to Morgan's shiny new jail cell beyond "Why?"  As Morgan was going on about it giving them choices, Rick gave him the same look I imagine I give my kids when they're showing me something they've obviously put some work into but I know will ultimately be pointless and forgotten in a day or so.  But hey, at least it kept them out of my hair and distracted from doing anything worse.

 

At least Rosita definitively disproved the old horror movie trope that the show seemed to be following in the early seasons that a woman who has sex with someone who isn't her husband or forever soulmate must die.

[AngelaHunter]

The dick bite seemed unrealistic to me. Dwight was holding a gun, and he has 2 hands, but he made no move to pull Eugene off of him.

 

That's because no one on this show can defend him/herself, ever, unless it's a main character. Zombies rip your face off? Just stand there, look to the heavens and scream.  Ditto if someone is biting your dick off. Really, I'm not a man, but I'm pretty sure the first thing Dwight would have done would be to club Eugene over the head with his gun. Eugene must have the bite force of a saltwater crocodile.

 

I can't rag on Eugene too much. I did like him this episode, with his determination not to back down from Yosemite Sam.

 

I enjoyed the humorous scene with Spencer scampering after Rosita, who is all but rolling her eyes in a "Oh, are you STILL here?" way. She probably forgot he existed the minute she left the bedroom.

 

Spence is the kind of new-male - generically good-looking, mild, a little doofus-y, "in touch with his feminine side" - so in fashion today. He's going to be devastated when Rosita tells him to take a hike, which she will in 3 - 2 -1.

 

I feel like they don't really know what to do with Daryl anymore, so they alternate between having him look cool, because Norman Reedus is inherently cool, and having him mope about stuff, because Norman Reedus can do mopey. It's like they're not really interested in him as a character anymore.

 

Agree totally. There hasn't been anything for him to do in ages except stand around, mumble, and be Rick's  "whatever you say" lapdog/henchman. That's why I liked his interactions with Denise. They were funny and cute and gave him back a little personality.

[DearEvette]

I am not a shipper so don't really care about who is with who but I'm trying to figure out the story value of the Abraham/Sasha/Rosita stuff and hoping it is not just soap opera filler.

I'm glad that Sasha is choosing life (as in relationship = future)  but Abraham?  They couldn't have her choose life with some unattached guy like the one in Rosita's bed?

So Rosita still has Abraham's back in battle which instantly resolves their conflict?  Then why make any?

I find this all really annoying unless it plays into some bigger survival storyline down the road.

 

My take is, as others have alluded to elsewhere, the relative down-time they have in Alexandria is giving them all time of think about themselves and life and all that stuff that they had to put aside until now because they were simply in fight-fight-fight-survival mode.  So people are able to turn their attention to those things that nourish the soul -- romance and other self-reflection stuff

 

Rick and Michonne are  finally in a place where they notice each other that way.  Carole is having a crisis of conscience, Denise and Eugene are looking around them and realizing they can't sit behind the lines anymore, Father Gabriel has undergone some sort of epiphany etc. so everybody is sorta having an internal re-group.  We saw Abraham going through his as well and it is also is centered on relationship.  He sees Rick/Michonne and   he questions the commitment of Glen and Maggie & their choice to get pregnant.  Reading between the lines you get the impression he wants a bit of what they are having, but he realizes he just doesn't want it with the woman he is currently with.

 

Say what you will about Abraham, he's not a bad catch in a Post-ZA world.  He is a competent fighter.  I could see why Sasha may gravitate toward someone who might have a better than average chance of living  a bit longer than the next guy.  Personally, I thought Bob was a terrible match for Sasha Fierce!  Also I don't necessarily agree that it needs to have any bigger meaning in the overall context of the show than just more character development or in the case of one or the other them of biting it, it gives the remaining actor something to react to.

 

I also see no reason why Rosita wouldn't have his back in a fight.  Regardless of where they are personally, this is still  a dangerous world with Zombies and a group of killers that are possibly crazier than Rick x10. No matter how much you might fight internally, you band together against an external attack; See: Eugene.

[ACW]

But the experience points aren't worth it for both of them.

http://previously.tv/the-walking-dead/two-newbies-level-up-their-skills-on-the-walking-dead/"> Read the story

You bother to put in a Disturbing Content warning, but you apparently don't count that picture of Denise as "disturbing"?

[qtpye]

My God, I hate the way Eugene and Abraham speak. Individually it's bad enough but both of them together is unbearable. And they both get to live another day while Denise dies?

 

You are not a fan of " Ye ole school of quirky southern dialogue"?  I swear, I think I heard one of them say "forsooth".

 

Yeah...never have an emotional breakthrough during the ZA. You might as well take a job being the drummer in Spinal Tap, then take a side job teaching Defense Against the Dark Arts, all the while wearing a bright red shirt while talking about your upcoming retirement party. 

This is one of the funniest things I have ever read.  It really needs it's own t-shirt.

 

Rosita seems to have always been his convenient, for-now girl.  The tragedy is only that she wasn't on the same page... and the character flaw in Abraham was that he knew that and wasn't honest with Rosita.  He may feel differently about Sasha and this may play out differently.

 

 

Poor Rosita.  You think once you shave a man dolphin smooth he is yours forever.

 

I love the actress who played Denise and I hate what they did to her character.

 

All of a sudden, she became an idiot shit for brains, who thinks putting herself in danger is worth just to prove a worthless point.  Then she babbles about Daryl reminding her "a fearless brother" and Rosita being alone and that is why they have to journey to the land of OZ to get the magical Orange Crush.

 

Also, now we know she came from a similar back ground to Daryl.  Beat up trucks and bad alcoholic parents,with only her brave brother giving her hope.

 

It's like the writer's wanted you to root for the death, because she was being ridiculous.

 

By the way, Orange Crush is an REM song and REM is from Athens, Georgia.  I have no idea if this is relevant to anything.

Edited March 21, 2016 by qtpye

[AndySmith]

At least Rosita definitively disproved the old horror movie trope that the show seemed to be following in the early seasons that a woman who has sex with someone who isn't her husband or forever soulmate must die.

 

Give it a few episodes...

[Eyes High]

I loved that Eugene stuck it to Abraham a little bit over throwing people away when you don't "require their services" anymore.

I'd love it if Eugene were giving Abraham shit because of Rosita, but there was nothing in the writing to suggest that. I also doubt Eugene is emotionally subtle enough to make little comments to Abraham needling him with the same line of thinking Abraham used with Rosita; that's some black belt passive aggressiveness that would never even occur to someone as socially awkward and inept at communicating emotions as Eugene. My impression was that Eugene was pissed only because Abraham was still treating him like a helpless child, despite Eugene's participation in and survival of Alexandria's Whacking Day, and because Abraham was being patronizing and condescending when Eugene insisted he could handle himself.

 

Also, I don't know why we're jumping to the assumption that Eugene must have been deeply offended over Abraham's treatment of Rosita, to the point that he would pick a fight with Abraham. He might lust after Rosita, but does he really care about Rosita all that much? From everything we've seen Abraham's friendship is far more important to Eugene than Rosita's. Furthermore, someone as socially awkward and emotionally inept as Eugene might not have registered how much pain Abraham caused Rosita, or even that Abraham had acted wrongly. (That seems supported by his impromptu cookie comments after witnessing the breakup, rather than any move to comfort Rosita.) As it is, it seems that Eugene and Abraham's fight was 100% about Eugene and Abraham, which was preferable to me to territorial sniping over Rosita's hurt feelings.

 

Eugene was harsh (way harsh, even) about Abraham being no longer useful to him, but Abraham, in usual Abraham fashion, was 100% being a dick and deserved a smackdown. I was glad they made up, though. Abraham and Eugene's bromance is the best.

Edited March 21, 2016 by Eyes High

[Ocean Chick]

I get why Carol went walkabout.  She's hit a low in life, even lower than being married to Ed.  She's hooking up with Whiterice Redshirt, and nothing is lower than that.  She HAS to leave town to save face and find her self-pride.

 

But really, she's suffering from her own form of PTSD, and needs some alone time to deal with it and heal herself.  I get it.  The rest of ASZ just need to deal with Negan on their own and not bother her.  They're grown folk.  They can handle themselves.

 

Now for the important question - who will Eugene spy on during sex now?  Abe and Sasha?  Or Rosita and Spencer?  Guy's got to get his jollies somewhere, you know.  Or maybe Rick and Michonne won't mind him watching them.  LOL

[Eyes High]

Now for the important question - who will Eugene spy on during sex now?  Abe and Sasha?  Or Rosita and Spencer?  Guy's got to get his jollies somewhere, you know.  Or maybe Rick and Michonne won't mind him watching them.  LOL

 

I might be misremembering, but wasn't at least one of Abraham and Rosita aware that Eugene would watch them having sex? 

 

Watching Talking Dead with Josh as a guest reminded me of how lovely Josh's real speaking voice is, compared to Eugene's lower-pitched, sulky southern accent.  

Edited March 21, 2016 by Eyes High

[ShadowSixx]

Argh!  Denise was making me crazy all episode:  The way the camera focused on her whenever she was alone, I figured something was going to happen to her.  Snooping around in the pharmacy.  (Don't open the door, Denise!)  Going for the cooler.  (Don't open the door, Denise!)  Speechifying.  (Get to the point, Denise!  (Ha!))  The suspense was terrible, it was almost a relief when she was finally shot.

 

Still, I don't much care about any of the ASZers.  I'd sacrifice the whole lot (maybe with the exception of Aaron) if we could keep CDB intact.

 

As for Carol, I get it.  (Don't like it, but get it.)  She doesn't care if she gets killed while out on her own.  She doesn't want anyone she cares about to either kill or be killed while protecting her since she has checked out.  I hope it isn't the last we see of her.  Warrior Carol is probably my favorite character.

 

I agree out of characters that were part of the ASZ before CDC got there, the only one I like is Aaron. Rest of the ASZ I don't care about. So hopefully nothing happens to Aaron. 

 

So with Denise out as a doctor all they have left is the man on Hilltop, meaning they would have to keep traveling if someone suffers a serious injury. CDC need to realize that doctors don't need to be going out on runs or anything. Now they lost a total of three doctors. The guy at the prison who died of the virus, Hershel, and now Denise. If a doctor wants to go out on runs say no, even if you have to tie them down.

 

Maggie may end up being the go to doctor for ASZ since she knows a little something from Hershel. 

[Dobian]

Agreeing with some of the above comments.  Biting someone's crotch through jeans isn't going to work very well and you'd be lucky to inflict any pain.  And yeah, just shoot him in the head, Dwight.  But it's tv and given the many other implausible things on this show, I can waive that off.  Yes, letting a doctor go out on a run is insanely stupid.  Rosita is a terribly underdeveloped character for having been around for three seasons.  There is nothing about her that you can say that is remotely interesting.  Of course it outlines one big problem with this show in that there are way too many main characters, so you have episodes where blocks of characters are totally absent or just make cameos.

Edited March 21, 2016 by Dobian

[catrox14]

Carol's method of departure makes no sense to me.

 

Carol worked out her grievances with Rick.  Carol has become an expert marksman and pragmatic about killing and she's stealthy AF. She became a relied upon member of Rick's advisory council along with Michonne and Daryl. IMO Michonne being his SO doesn't mean that Rick will stop listening to Carol.  We even saw it in action when he didn't tell Sasha the whole story about the Hilltoppers but said to Carol "We have to fight".  . But suddenly she's really been having this moral dilemma that apparently she's had all along? 

 

Okay, even if Carol was just now having this moral dilemma and crushing guild or PTSD and she just CANNOT do it anymore the should have had her sit down with Rick, Michonne,Daryl, Glenn and Maggie and say " I need some time because I'm overwhelmed. I need to rethink my role in this community". 

 

She could still serve as an advisor to Rick and do other things to help the group, without going in the field again for a little while. Who in CDB would deny her that moment of respite? No one.

 

Or even had her sit down with Rick & Co and say, "I'm leaving.  Here's why I need to leave". They would have tried to talk her out of it.  Even if they don't agree with her choice, it would have given them the chance to prepare for her departure because they are losing a top soldier and leader of the community. If someone chose to go after her when she told them to their face, don't do it, then IMO that's on them because they would have said their goodbyes. I feel like face to face discussions would make this better.

 

But NOPE they have her abandon the group with no time to prepare and with a Dear John letter.  And all that does is make Carol look stupid and selfish. It's annoying and writing her OOC again just like when she killed Karen and David. Carol has been reduced to a plot device..again :(.   The 'Don't Find Me' in her letter makes it obvious that someone will clearly go and find her and that someone will probably die because they went to find her.

 

It's annoying and I just don't fucking get it.

Edited March 21, 2016 by catrox14

[TattleTeeny]

Rosita is still mostly tough and hot. And might be hooking up with Spencer.

 

Is there a "might be"? They were in bed together, no?

[ACW]

For what it's worth, Merrit Wever doesn't seem too upset about it:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/03/20/the-walking-dead-s-merritt-wever-how-denise-s-last-victory-saved-abraham-s-life.html 

 

Dale's death went to Bob, Tyreese's to Hershel, Reg was a woman, Deanna a man, Lizzie and Mika were boys, and so on. I hate the message it sent, and the imagery involved, and I would definitely be happier if there were more LGBT+ characters (happier still if Abraham had gone, because I kinda hate him), but it isn't the first time a distinctive death was shuffled around and foisted onto another character.

 

  Looking at your list, and counting Denise, here's what I see:

  Black characters whose comics death went to whites on TV:  1

  White characters whose comics death went to blacks on TV: 1

  Male characters whose comics death went to females on TV (includes Reg): 4

  Female characters whose comics death went to males on TV (includes Deanna): 1.

 

  Not as bad as I expected, but still seems a little lopsided.  We'll see what happens in the final two episodes.

Edited March 21, 2016 by HalcyonDays
Tagged comics spoilers

[Eyes High]

Carol's method of departure makes no sense to me.

 

Carol worked out her grievances with Rick.  Carol has become an expert marksman and pragmatic about killing and she's stealthy AF. She became a relied upon member of Rick's advisory council along with Michonne and Daryl. IMO Michonne being his SO doesn't mean that Rick will stop listening to Carol.  We even saw it in action when he didn't tell Sasha the whole story about the Hilltoppers but said to Carol "We have to fight".  . But suddenly she's really been having this moral dilemma that apparently she's had all along? 

 

Okay, even if Carol was just now having this moral dilemma and crushing guild or PTSD and she just CANNOT do it anymore the should have had her sit down with Rick, Michonne,Daryl, Glenn and Maggie and say " I need some time because I'm overwhelmed. I need to rethink my role in this community". 

 

She could still serve as an advisor to Rick and do other things to help the group, without going in the field again for a little while. Who in CDB would deny her that moment of respite? No one.

 

Or even had her sit down with Rick & Co and say, "I'm leaving.  Here's why I need to leave"[

I dunno, it makes sense to me. I buy Carol not running her decision by anyone. 100% in character. Carol didn't put killing Karen and David to a committee, did she? Carol didn't tell Tyreese she was going to murder Lizzie. Carol didn't bother to fill Tyreese in on the details of her Terminus plan other than a "I'm gonna kill people." Carol was trying to leave the gang after Terminus and didn't inform anyone of that decision. Carol radioed the Saviour team to lure them to the kill floor without telling Maggie what her plan was. Carol has always done what she thought was right without asking permission.

 

As for Carol having this moral dilemma, she's always had it. Killing Lizzie tore her up. Going Rambo Carol on Terminus tore her up, to the point where she wanted to leave the group again after saving them. Going Rambo Carol on the Wolves tore her up. However, when push comes to shove, she's always managed to suppress her feelings to get the job done, as she did with the Saviour BBQ. That doesn't mean that those feelings weren't there all along. It's just that now she's less able to suppress them. 

 

With respect to the argument that Carol should just take a seat if she doesn't want to kill, I think Carol would feel morally obligated to go into Rambo Carol mode to protect the other Alexandrians, no matter how much it hurt her psychologically, the same way she killed Chelle to protect Maggie. Carol knows she can do things that no one else can (Rambo Carol), but she doesn't want to be put in the position of having to choose between using those skills and innocent people dying because she flinched. I expect she's keenly aware that her hesitation with Paula and the Saviours put Maggie and the others at risk. She's leaving so that she won't have to make that call.

 

In a way, Carol is being more honest about this than Morgan. Morgan wants not only to not kill but for nobody else to kill. Carol realizes that it's necessary to kill to save people's lives (thus her quiet "You were right [about Dwight]" to Daryl) and that she'll have to kill again to save people's lives, and leaves so that she won't be put in that position.

Edited March 21, 2016 by Eyes High

[Pete Martell]

Agreeing with some of the above comments.  Biting someone's crotch through jeans isn't going to work very well and you'd be lucky to inflict any pain.  And yeah, just shoot him in the head, Dwight.  But it's tv and given the many other implausible things on this show, I can waive that off.  Yes, letting a doctor go out on a run is insanely stupid.  Rosita is a terribly underdeveloped character for having been around for three seasons.  There is nothing about her that you can say that is remotely interesting.  Of course it outlines one big problem with this show in that there are way too many main characters, so you have episodes where blocks of characters are totally absent or just make cameos.

 

I think if they had less characters they'd just end up overusing characters who already feel tapped out (Daryl) or who are mostly in damage control from writing issues (Carol), or who are just about ruined from recycled platitudes (Morgan). I'd definitely always like to see more of Michonne, or Carl, and others who don't get a lot to do, but I think characters like Rosita work perfectly well as supporting figures and strong backup for the group. I've liked seeing her go from just that woman who wore big earrings and booty shorts. She's a confident, intelligent woman who is somewhat guarded, but there when needed, and sexual without letting herself be defined by her sexuality. She is, in a lot of ways, what they were trying and failing to make Andrea in season 2.

 

I'm happy to have more characters and stories. I just wish that some of the stories were better. I get the idea of this love triangle/quad - to show Abraham's internal crisis, to show how psyches change when they're in an area of stability and comfort (as we're also seeing with Carol), but the love element of it has felt forced, especially as we barely even saw Abraham and Sasha, and still aren't. We also never saw all that much of Abraham and Rosita. It 

[ShadowSixx]

Is there a "might be"? They were in bed together, no?

 

Plus he wants to make stroganoff. I mean really you don't want to cook for someone in the ZA unless you get some sex from them first. Spencer doesn't know that he's a rebound guy. Rosita just doesn't seem all that interested in him at all, but her pickings are very slim. You kind of have to go to the next attractive person you see that isn't taken.

 

If it was me with the group I would try to sleep with Rick first, then Glenn then after that try to convert Aaron or sneak off to Hilltop and get some of Jesus lol.

[Omar G.]

You bother to put in a Disturbing Content warning, but you apparently don't count that picture of Denise as "disturbing"?

 

Good point, I should have included "extreme eye trauma" in that warning.

[Boofish]

Random thoughts

 

Loved the Coward Montage at the beginning

 

Denise death is on Denise; she should have stayed home

 

Lots of antibiotics end with "cin" I'm not a doctor and even I know that so you don't have to be a genius to figure out which was antibiotics that stop infections

 

If Morgan can find the materials and build an entire jail cell why don't he spend his time and skills more wisely instead of his morning tai chi/ Lion King Rafiki impressions

[SoSueMe]

This episode is the first I can remember in a very long while that gave off a genuine horror movie vibe.  All the waiting for something to happen, the sense early on that something very bad was definitely coming, whatever the hell all that was in the back room at the apothecary, the prerequisite blonde girl wandering off repeatedly and eventually doing something that got her killed.

 

I HATE Carol's choice to leave but I can see where it was coming from.  She's been carrying a lot for quite awhile now.  The unseen weeks or months between No Way Out and when we next saw her bopping along with nothing more pressing on her mind than foraging for baking supplies and flirting with Tobin gave her a taste of peace and normalcy again and time to really think about things.  But that was almost immediately followed by Rick rolling up to announce that they were going to go start killing people again.  She can't reconcile the pictures of domesticity and chief cookie baker with that of the pragmatic killing machine anymore.  I don't have to like it and I can already hear the Carol haters ginning up to blame her for everything that's probably coming next and probably would have happened anyway since Rick decided to go preemtively poke the bear.  Whatever happens though still almost has to be better than her chasing ghost Ed in a wedding dress around a field or rolling around bloody in a public street.

I totally agree on the horror aspect, I actually had the same thought when watching Denise creeping around alone. The story has sort of evolved into a survival/action deal, most of the time and that's good too. But I did enjoy that scary, gut wrenching sequence.

 

Great points about Carol too. MM was on Talking Dead last week so I am pretty sure that she isn't being phased out. At least I hope not, I am definitely Team Carol. 

[jsbt]

I don't think they're doing damage control on Carol, because I don't think they feel (and I don't either, really) that Carol was a damaged character. They're just developing Carol beyond a place where some of the audience can simply peg her as nothing but a badass, and I think that's organic growth. Changing a character, or having a segment of the fanbase pigeonhole a character, doesn't always mean the character itself is inherently flawed. Sometimes it's more a reflection of the audience than the actual show. Look at the people who are convinced Michonne can't and shouldn't be a sexual being or romantic option for Rick - that's not on her character, the writers or Danai Gurira, that's on a subjective (and IMO deeply wrong) interpretation. Same principle, IMO.

 

So, I see both the side of the argument that is hurt and outraged and the side that treats it as just another secondary character death, because IMO both have a point.

 

As a gay fan I just can't respect the sides the same - the fact is that almost everyone on this (predominantly heterosexual) show dies or loses someone horribly and has since the jump. The last thing I want is an exemption from that. They can and should continue to introduce more gay and lesbian characters, but if you do that on TWD then I think by definition what that means is we are as much fodder as anyone else. I call that progress. I also don't think the overall diversity on the show has gotten enough credit since at least Season 4. We're also now looking at a show where the central couple (on what is now an ensemble piece) is Rick and Michonne, and that's still a big deal.

 

I loved Denise and I hated that she died, but she isn't the first person on this show that I can say that about. AFAIC it's just something that happens on TWD. I don't know that I agree with the premise that they have to find some happy medium with the queer characters, because I don't think you can ever keep everyone happy while making TV. I think the best they can ever do is continue building those characters while also continuing to kill others, just the same as the heterosexual characters. There's a start to that now with Jesus, etc. I despise the mentality that we have to be a protected class with some sort of special dispensation (which I don't think you're espousing, this is just a general rant) and that any actual equal treatment in drama is tantamount to exploitation. I think if the hot take becomes that we must either be sainted, protected or dying nobly than we're not getting that far beyond the '90s era when the nice gays were kissing off-camera and/or dying of AIDS.

Edited March 21, 2016 by jsbt

[mornnoch]

I really hope Negan has superior numbers, because any threat his people might present at this point would definitely be from quantity, not quality. I mean, given from what we have seen of his people so far, it hasn't been all that impressive or intimidating.

 

 

They aren't weak or incompetent, our group simply is stronger (Daryl/RPG), smarter (Carol/Maggie), has the better tactic/intel

(because of surprise) and is as ruthless as them.

For a bunch of psychopaths they seem

- well equipped: a lot of guns, gas, weed, big car pool, not starving, walkie-talkies, very valuable medicine (insulin), electricity

- well organized: outposts, safe-houses, patrols, scouts, guards, communication protocols, emergency protocols, command structure, own laws

- well adjusted: walkers are no threat to them, not simply surviving but thriving, rule their area and other humans/communities within, Paula`s group still following the protocol and not panicking, at the outpost putting up a fight surprised in the middle of the night, capable search parties