The Duggars: In the Media and TLC

[Churchhoney]

""In three minutes, John Piper explains how God cures our heart’s broken desires for sin," Duggar, 22, posted from Piper's website. "When the Bible calls us to live like Christ, it doesn’t merely give us a set of commands. It presents us with something compelling and captivating that changes our minds, and then our hearts. The gospel convinces us of something irresistibly true, and then transforms our desires for something new. That conviction and passion keeps us out of bed with someone who’s not our spouse and rejects a thousand other temptations."

Duggar also shared a direct link to Piper's message, which comes from 1 Peter 1:13-16. "Ninety-nine percent of what you do is out of the abundance of the heart," the pastor says to his congregation. "The mouth speaks, the arms move, and you live... As obedient children, that's what we want to be, children of God, we should not be formed... conformed... conformed by passions that are rooted in ignorance."

So much Duggar gibberish, what is she trying to say?

 

Jessa thinks that quoting pretentious, pseudo-complex blithering abstraction makes her sound smart. Wrong again, Jessa.

[ariel]

Jessa and Ben have now shared a sermon on preventing adultery. Because, I suppose, their lengthy marriage and deep Biblical studies have given them so much wisdom that that they are just called to share it with the world.  /sarcasm

 

 

I went to that site.  At first I thought  that grey haired man was Bernie Sanders.  Praise the Lord!   Bin &  Jessa  had finally seen the light!

Sadly no such luck. He’s not Bernie and doesn't sound anything like Bernie.

Edited September 1, 2015 by ariel

[galax-arena]

Arkansas's 3rd congressional district, aka Northwest Arkansas is incredibly conservative. Michelle's robocall didn't make a difference, she's a symptom, not a cause.

IMO this rebuttal kinda misses what Michelle's robocall set out to do. IIRC, you are from a country with compulsory voting. So you don't have to worry about low voter turnout. That is not the case in the US. We have a freakin' abysmal turnout here in the US. Even in national election years, it hovers around 60%. For our 2014 midterm elections, we had a 36.4% turnout, which was the lowest since 1942.

 

Yes, Arkansas as a whole is conservative. But these robocalls aren't meant to persuade people into changing their minds, it's about getting people off their butts and to the polls. There have been times when a side popular with the majority lost in an election because people got too complacent and figured that they were a shoe-in. I actually think that contributed to California's Prop 8 passing; people were fooled by opinion polls and the idea of CA as this liberal democracy. And Michelle's robocall was successful in scaremongering the conservative constituents into voting. 

Can't they both be awful? Kinda of a Hitler/Stalin thing? I vote for that.

Oh, they're both awful. Being open about your bigotry doesn't make you any less of an awful person. I just find the Andersons easier to take from a personal perspective.

Edited September 1, 2015 by galax-arena

[kokapetl]

I'm sure the hundreds of baptist churches that litter the NWA landscape rendered Michelle's robocall redundant, attendees would've been encouraged to vote a particular way. Voting being voluntary also favors the conservative Fox News demographic, it didn't make her input more effective, her input was actually less necessary, since liberals, when given a choice, regrettably don't bother to vote.

[ariel]

The Duggars showed some capacity to be considerate, that there was some humanity in them.

How did the Duggars show you any capacity to be considerate?  As far as I can see they don't even have any capacity to be considerate of animals.

Edited September 1, 2015 by ariel

[kokapetl]

How did the Duggars show you any capacity to be considerate? As far as I can see they don't even have any capacity to be considerate of animals.

I really should've gone to bed hours ago. I promise up respond later.

[Satchels of gold]

Jessa thinks that quoting pretentious, pseudo-complex blithering abstraction makes her sound smart. Wrong again, Jessa.

I like Chris Rock's theroy, men are as faithful as there options.

[Julia]

How did the Duggars show you any capacity to be considerate?  As far as I can see they don't even have any capacity to be considerate of animals.

They beat infants with implements for moving. If they spend the rest of their lives in sackcloth rubbing ashes into their hair and repenting loudly in every venue they can find, the best thing I'll be able to say about their empathy is that at some point they realized that they had to at least try to do something to make it right with the universe for being someone who beats infants with implements for moving.

Edited September 1, 2015 by Julia

[Satchels of gold]

Espically when you coax the infant off the blanket and then hit them again. That's some great training right there.

[galax-arena]

I'm sure the hundreds of baptist churches that litter the NWA landscape rendered Michelle's robocall redundant, attendees would've been encouraged to vote a particular way.

Of course the members of conservative churches are expected to march in lockstep in voting for certain issues. But that's a different issue than actually being scaremongered into going to the polls. (Especially since churches are actually forbidden from doing that sort of overt politicking for candidates... of course, many churches violate it to some degree.) The sort of calls Michelle Duggar was making matters. You're from a country where it sounds like that sort of "get out the vote" tactic isn't necessary, because everyone's going to be at the polls regardless.

 

Voting being voluntary also favors the conservative Fox News demographic, it didn't make her input more effective, her input was actually less necessary, since liberals, when given a choice, regrettably don't bother to vote.

...What?

 

Either way, even if you want to disagree on how dangerous the Duggars really are, my overall point is that Michelle Duggar's opinion is one that is actually held by a large number of Americans. That makes her harder to swallow (for me). Hearing someone like Rick Warren talk about loving the sinner but hating the sin makes my stomach twist because I think about all the people in my life who buy into that. 

 

It doesn't matter how intelligent the Andersons are, because aside from their fellow fringe loonies, no one is taking them seriously. Executing gay people? There is no chance of that happening. Zero. Zip. Nada. Zilch. Even the craziest Tea Party Republicans wouldn't touch that with a ten-foot pole. That includes Ted Cruz.

Edited September 1, 2015 by galax-arena

[kokapetl]

Their kids run wild, in fact so wild the boys are called the howlers. Any blanket training was at most a plan that was abandoned soon after it was started.

[AnnieBeez]

OH MY FUCKING GOD, DON'T EVEN GET ME STARTED ON JOHN PIPER. 

 

The caps and profanity in the above sentence were much needed to get across just how much I loathe this smirky complementarian asshole. 

 

You want to know what John Piper says? John Piper says that a woman must endure/submit to abuse as long as the husband isn't asking her to actively sin herself*. John Piper doesn't think that a woman should become a police officer because that would require having authority over a man. John Piper says that a woman needs to be careful when giving directions to a man lest she inadvertently emasculate him and call into question his sense of manhood. John Piper needs a punch in the face.

 

I hate hate hate how this guy is lauded as some great theologian by conservative Christians. Hey, complementarians! You want to honestly convince me that complementarianism is the most "pro-woman outfit" there is? (Quoting the Council for Biblical Manhood and Womanhood there.) THEN MAYBE YOU SHOULD DISAVOW THE SON OF A BITCH WHO SAID THAT WOMEN WERE OBLIGATED TO SUBMIT TO ABUSE.

 

John motherfucking Piper is the last person I would look to for advice on anything. I don't even need to look at his article about adultery to go, "Haha, nope." Whenever someone quotes John Piper (in a good way), that tells me that their opinion is most likely not worth considering. 

 

* John Piper later got flak for this. So John Piper wrote a follow-up blog post where he allowed for exceptions in submitting to abuse, but only in the context of the woman continuing to submit to another authority. In the case of abuse, the woman would be submitting to the church or civil authorities over her husband. John Piper simply does not want a woman to be independent, period. One thinks that if the woman did not go to the church or police, but simply ran away in the dead of night, John Piper would have a problem with it. John Piper still needs a punch in the face.  

 

Maybe this question belongs in the religion thread, but how is it these men are so fragile and have such little self-control. Who'd want a "headship" like that? 

[birkenstock]

I think that Jim Bob and Michelle blanket trained down to James.  In the 14 kids special, James had a temper tantrum because they were going to the store without him. Michelle went up to him, whispered in his ear for a second, and he stopped crying immediately. That was some kind of training and we know that they used physical discipline on them per the police report. I think the amount of physical discipline changed once TLC came in. 

 

I think the Duggars had influence on people or Michelle wouldn't have made the robocalls, Josh wouldn't have been hired by the FRC, and they wouldn't have gone on the campaign trail. She may not have swayed many people, but it can help people double down on their beliefs. 

[Churchhoney]

Maybe this question belongs in the religion thread, but how is it these men are so fragile and have such little self-control. Who'd want a "headship" like that? 

 

Shhhh! The whole point is to keep us from asking that kind of question! Look! Over there! It's an umbrella of protection! Oh, if you and your husband love the Jesus we tell you about, he will never ever even think about being unfaithful! Don't you want to join our group now? I swear it's all about distracting women from taking a good look at what the score really is so these self-indulgent, loser men can go on being kings of their sad little hills. Worse, the women keep falling for it.

[Satchels of gold]

I don't care if it was only used once, that's too much. Any mother who could hit a helpless child because they read it in a book is not a fit parent. When I adopted my daughter I was given the book Parenting the strong willed child by Dr. Dobson . It was given to me by a good friend who I thought was a great mom so

I had high hopes. Dr. Dobson's advice was to hit your child ( often) with a an implement, like a wooden spoon because your hand should only be associated with love. I threw the book away immediately. That's insane and I knew it was insane the moment I read it. Michelle gets no passes from me, I think she is an awful awful mother for reason to numerous to count.

[Aethera]

It's time for a chorus of our favorite mod song.  It's an old doo-w** that goes like this: Plllllllllease (oh won't you please) Agreeeeeee (oh yeah agree) to Disagreeeeeeeee (we're all allowed our own opi-i-i-inionssssss).

 

In all seriousness, while many among us feel like the Duggars are terrible people, it doesn't follow that we must universally criticize every little thing they do, or that there isn't room for people to show them a little benefit of the doubt on certain issues. And in this case, we're dredging up some really dead horses - blanket training, the robocall - that we don't have to re-litigate just for the sake of it. We're fine with varied discussion, but it feels like we're headed in the "let's reopen every thing that we've discussed and throw it all back and forth for a while" direction, and I think it's best we avoid that. Thanks.

[Satchels of gold]

Shhhh! The whole point is to keep us from asking that kind of question! Look! Over there! It's an umbrella of protection! Oh, if you and your husband love the Jesus we tell you about, he will never ever even think about being unfaithful! Don't you want to join our group now? I swear it's all about distracting women from taking a good look at what the score really is so these self-indulgent, loser men can go on being kings of their sad little hills. Worse, the women keep falling for it.

Yes! If you keep them stupid, pregnant and occupied with children they can never, ever leave you. That's why I have said over and over I get why the men are attracted to this but what women, except those born into it would want to join?

[Churchhoney]

I think that Jim Bob and Michelle blanket trained down to James.  In the 14 kids special, James had a temper tantrum because they were going to the store without him. Michelle went up to him, whispered in his ear for a second, and he stopped crying immediately. That was some kind of training and we know that they used physical discipline on them per the police report. I think the amount of physical discipline changed once TLC came in. 

 

I think the Duggars had influence on people or Michelle wouldn't have made the robocalls, Josh wouldn't have been hired by the FRC, and they wouldn't have gone on the campaign trail. She may not have swayed many people, but it can help people double down on their beliefs. 

 

And in a country with extremely low voter turnout, often just a few people being inspired to go to the polls can turn an election, especially for a local issue.

[Julia]

They were clearly viewed to have influence on politics in the early primaries for the Republican party, since the two most prominent christian conservative candidates were competing for their endorsement.

 

But then, I think some of you haven't been reading your Instagram comment sections. In the topsy-turvy world of Duggar apologism, they only have influence if it's somehow to their rhetorical advantage to have influence. Otherwise, they're harmless eccentrics with no impact on the world who should be left to their obscurity and simultaneously allowed back on television. 

[humbleopinion]

From the presses across the Pond:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-3218507/Josh-Duggar-missing-mandatory-church-services-Christian-rehab-facility-mystery-shamed-reality-star-s-whereabouts-deepens.html

[JenCarroll]

I read a phrase today that may apply here: "scripture-vomiting robot."

  

Pure poetry.

[CofCinci]

Jacob Roloff from TLC's 'Little People, Big World':  “Man I wish it didn’t feel like I was getting f**ked out of the money from the show that was my childhood right now,”  

 

I look forward to the day that rando howlers start asking for their fair share.

[lulee]

From the presses across the Pond:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-3218507/Josh-Duggar-missing-mandatory-church-services-Christian-rehab-facility-mystery-shamed-reality-star-s-whereabouts-deepens.html

check the nearest topless/ bottomless gentleman's club.

[humbleopinion]

Having the plate lunch special and catching a show, no doubt.

Gotta eat lunch somewhere...

[charmed1]

John Piper says that a woman needs to be careful when giving directions to a man lest she inadvertently emasculate him and call into question his sense of manhood.

For Siri's sake, I hope John Piper has changed his iPhone settings.

[NextIteration]

The Radar Online version includes some sketchy flight info.

[Churchhoney]

Funding patterns for Family Research Council Action seem to be making some lefties wonder whether Koch brother dark money may have been the bucks and impetus behind Josh's hiring. Having one of the biggest political money powers out there supporting your hiring as a key tool for winning the 2016 election would certainly go to the head of an already arrogant little SOB like Duggar if he had any hint of it. At any rate, his hiring seems to have brought cash into FRC Action. I guess everybody figures that television celebrity can be an election game changer.

 

http://www.prwatch.org/node/12914

 

"In June 2013, Duggar was hired to work as the Executive Director of "Family Research Council Action."....According to newly reviewed tax filings, it turns out that Family Research Council Action first received funding from a little known entity called "EVANGCHR4 Trust" between June 2013 and May 2014.

That entity--which plainly refers to transferring money to evangelical Christian groups--is legally tied to a mysterious limited liability corporation called "ORRA LLC," which received more than $5 million from the Kochs' Freedom Partners operation, which was secretly launched in 2012 to replace a predecessor entity."

 

http://www.truth-out.org/buzzflash/commentary/koch-brother-claims-he-is-a-libertarian-but-he-wants-to-control-a-lot-of-our-choices

 

'There was quite a bit of pomp when the Family Research Council, a Washington, D.C.-based so-called traditional values lobbying outfit, announced that Josh Duggar would become Executive Director of Family Research Council Action, a 501©(4) political and lobbying arm of the FRC. During his brief tenure with the FRC, the organization boasted about Duggar’s relationships with several prominent GOP politicians, listed him as a featured speaker at its annual pro-life conference called ProLifeCon, and touted its “Values Bus Tour,” which Josh, his parents, sisters, and brothers participated in.

That was before revelations surfaced that Duggar’s parents, Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar – stars of the now-cancelled reality television show, “19 Kids and Counting” – covered up their son’s sexual molestation of five young girls, including four of his younger sisters, while he was a teenager....

'In 2012, the Koch Brother’s Freedom Partners threw more than $200 million into the election....While there are many unknowns about the Kochs’ political funding patterns, several things are clear: “Freedom Partners is their baby and it is run by their operatives to advance their vision for America, one election at a time,” and “Freedom Partners provided "general support" to ORRA/EVANGCHR4, which in turn provided "general support" to Family Research Council Action, although Freedom Partners told the IRS its grantees--like ORRA and David Koch's "Americans for Prosperity"--are barred from using the money for "electioneering purposes."'

[Darknight]

Maybe this question belongs in the religion thread, but how is it these men are so fragile and have such little self-control. Who'd want a "headship" like that?

I don't understand this. Men are in control yet can't control themselves

[Wellfleet]

Maybe this question belongs in the religion thread, but how is it these men are so fragile and have such little self-control. Who'd want a "headship" like that? 

 

The only women that want men like this are Gothardites and similar fundies. And as for why? A myriad of reasons, most of them psychological and stemming from childhood. But we're not supposed to be amateur psychoanalysts here so...

[Julia]

I don't understand this. Men are in control yet can't control themselves

 

Little (I assume) John Thomas must be a mighty opponent if they can't beat him. As it were.

Edited September 2, 2015 by Julia

[galax-arena]

The only women that want men like this are Gothardites and similar fundies. And as for why? A myriad of reasons, most of them psychological and stemming from childhood. But we're not supposed to be amateur psychoanalysts here so...

I'm going to respond in the Religion thread! 

[kandinski]

Is this true,my partner who was a fan of these dreadfull people swears there was a competition about five years ago,to spend the day with the Duggars following their daily routine?

[3 is enough]

From ET Online:

http://www.etonline.com/news/171148_jessa_seewald_publicly_sides_with_father_in_law_who_called_josh_duggar_a_pretender/

 

Pretty much just talking about Jessa re-tweeting her father-in-law's rant, but interestingly enough they said that Josh "allegedly" checked into rehab.

[BatmanBeatles]

Is this true,my partner who was a fan of these dreadfull people swears there was a competition about five years ago,to spend the day with the Duggars following their daily routine?

Doing what? Making laundry soap? listening to screechy violins?

[birkenstock]

I don't remember the Duggars having that competition. UPtv is having a be the 20th Bates for Bringing up Bates - idk what they would do with that either. I don't think that a loyal viewer would want a true look behind the Gothard curtain.  

[GeeGolly]

Jacob Roloff from TLC's 'Little People, Big World':  “Man I wish it didn’t feel like I was getting f**ked out of the money from the show that was my childhood right now,”  

 

I look forward to the day that rando howlers start asking for their fair share.

"This is a quote from TMZ, if there's any truth to it, the Duggar 19 would have some money from the show.

 

Sources connected to production tell us Jacob, like all minors on TLC programs, had his own bank account where his salary was regularly deposited during his 9 years on the show."

[Churchhoney]

"This is a quote from TMZ, if there's any truth to it, the Duggar 19 would have some money from the show.

 

Sources connected to production tell us Jacob, like all minors on TLC programs, had his own bank account where his salary was regularly deposited during his 9 years on the show."

 

I'm confused, though. If he had money being deposited in his own bank account for nine years, how could he be getting screwed out of it now? I'm missing something here. ....

[GeeGolly]

I'm confused, though. If he had money being deposited in his own bank account for nine years, how could he be getting screwed out of it now? I'm missing something here. ....

Good question. Unless it was a trust kind of an account, maybe his parents could access it? If that is true then the Duggar 19 is shit out of luck. I would like to know how the families of reality TV are paid. I wonder if they sign a non-disclosure about payment because I haven't read about it at all.

 

Or maybe every pair of pants, skateboard, movie ticket, etc, was purchased with those funds and he never knew it? Very curious.

Edited September 2, 2015 by GeeGolly

[Julia]

I found an academic paper about paying kids in reality TV where Jim Bob was quoted as saying that the kids were being filmed doing what they would ordinarily have been doing, and thus weren't being paid anything. That exemption, though, goes away when you turn 18, so I'm going to guess that one of the ways Jim Bob enabled Josh to support a wife was by getting TLC to pay for Josh.

[NewDigs]

Yes! If you keep them stupid, pregnant and occupied with children they can never, ever leave you. That's why I have said over and over I get why the men are attracted to this but what women, except those born into it would want to join?

And at the end of the day that could leave a pretty shallow sperm meets egg pool.

[cissyboo1]

I would guess it has something to do with how the account was set up.  Someone over the age of majority would either have to be the co-signatory on a savings account (or at least they do where I live), or the trustee of a trust for the benefit of the minor child.  If either Matt or Amy (or in the Duggar's case, JB or Michelle) has access to the funds, no telling where the money might go...

[GeeGolly]

This is part of an article written for The Squander on February 4th, 2015. The bolded part is funny.

 

"And TLC’s holier-than-you family, the Duggars, who are so religious that they don’t believe in contraception and therefore keep procreating (ew, we know) make a killing. They reportedly make around $25,000-$40,000 an episode, as of right now they have eight seasons and eighteen specials to date, equaling over 206 episodes. At minimum that’s over $5 million accumulated and at most about ten,so we can’t imagine they really need to make their own laundry soap every week out of financial strain.

Anyways, despite our obvious bias and dislike for the Duggar family, just a side note to any producer out there, although we’re positive you’re probably already working on it, you need to get one of those kids on Celebrity Rehab."

[Churchhoney]

I found an academic paper about paying kids in reality TV where Jim Bob was quoted as saying that the kids were being filmed doing what they would ordinarily have been doing, and thus weren't being paid anything. That exemption, though, goes away when you turn 18, so I'm going to guess that one of the ways Jim Bob enabled Josh to support a wife was by getting TLC to pay for Josh.

 

So that puts Jim Bob's respect for the personhood of children and teenagers right where it puts his respect for the personhood of women -- at zero. Predictable, I suppose.

 

What the hell did he do on that show that was different from what he ordinarily did? Oh, that's right. After hours of scriptwriting, reshooting and editing by the crew, he sounded almost like a sentient being.

[Vaysh]

I found an academic paper about paying kids in reality TV where Jim Bob was quoted as saying that the kids were being filmed doing what they would ordinarily have been doing, and thus weren't being paid anything. That exemption, though, goes away when you turn 18, so I'm going to guess that one of the ways Jim Bob enabled Josh to support a wife was by getting TLC to pay for Josh.

 

What is the title/author of the paper? Is it available online? I'd like to read it, it sounds interesting.

Edited September 2, 2015 by Vaysh

[Cherrio]

I'm confused, though. If he had money being deposited in his own bank account for nine years, how could he be getting screwed out of it now? I'm missing something here. ....

From what I have heard over the years, The parents are paid and that's it.      It is different in states where they have laws protecting children though.   Reality tv is a different ballgame and is usually not considered the same as a regular acting gig.

        In Texas for instance children have to be registered to work.  There is a special category for child performers.  I know that The Little Couple had to register their 3 and 5 year old as workers, so they probably under the law have to be paid.    Too bad they have no power to say no.

I found an academic paper about paying kids in reality TV where Jim Bob was quoted as saying that the kids were being filmed doing what they would ordinarily have been doing, and thus weren't being paid anything. That exemption, though, goes away when you turn 18, so I'm going to guess that one of the ways Jim Bob enabled Josh to support a wife was by getting TLC to pay for Josh.

Geez, lets hope she got paid for the toilet birth. Of course Josh probably does not let Anna have any say in money matters.

             Jim Bob?    NO ONE got a penny, except Jim Bob.    His actions prove it, his obnoxious personality says it all and how many people have come out saying he has always thought the show was about him?       

 

      Absolom knows a lot about this subject.

Edited September 2, 2015 by Cherrio

[Churchhoney]

From what I have heard over the years, The parents are paid and that's it.      It is different in states where they have laws protecting children though.   Reality tv is a different ballgame and is usually not considered the same as a regular acting gig.

       

 

Thanks. That's what I understood, too. And that's certainly where the law leaves it.

 

But then we have that TMZ thing up above, which quotes TLC sources as saying that all their reality-show kids get the money put into their own bank accounts. ... I mean, I can see this happening after the Kate Plus Eight mess -- that TLC might have instituted something like this on their own just to keep from further similar problems. But I never heard before that they did. And if they did do it, what the Roloff kid said couldn't be right unless the TLC policy were riddled with loopholes in favor of parental control of the money (which wouldn't be surprising)...or didn't grandfather in kids who were already on a show when the policy took effect (also possible). ....Anyway, I guess it remains a mystery. Too bad, since it's one of the most interesting questions about the fortunes of the Duggar kids.

Edited September 2, 2015 by Churchhoney

[Absolom]

OK.  Before the Gosselins, there is no proof TLC paid any of the minors on their reality shows.  The Roloffs pre-date the Gosselins so I think the TLC spokesperson probably means today not for the last 10 years.  Pennsylvania had to pass a law to get TLC to set aside money for the kids.  It was not a huge amount.  I think 18 to 20% of what was paid to the family had to be put in trust accounts for the kids.  That's a total for all of the children.  So not a lot for each child.  Also those trust accounts could be accessed for medical, educational, or living needs (food, clothing, and shelter) of the children.  So until the Gosselin mess I doubt TLC was putting anything in any minor's name and any money after that for Jacob could have been used to pay for the private school as long as he was attending there or other needs.  He could easily have nothing left in the account.  That is IF TLC immediately jumped on the wagon and began immediately paying minors into trust accounts.  Note - it seems the money goes into trust accounts not trusts. It's much easier for the parents to access.  I'm not sure that TLC has paid all the minors on its shows even after the Gosselins.  Although they do seem to suggest to the parents that they do set up accounts since even Mama June had accounts for the girls.

[Julia]

What is the title/author of the paper? Is it available online? I'd like to read it, it sounds interesting.

OK, you know what? It's like I fell off of a turnip truck onto a dial up modem in 1982. Did I know I should have just gone ahead and linked it because as soon as I shut down my desktop machine someone would ask? I absolutely did. Also, you wanna know how robust the Google interface is on my tablet? It is not freaking robust, is how robust it is not.

It's here. See footnote 42 on page 493.

Edited September 3, 2015 by Julia

[Quilt Fairy]

Little (I assume) John Thomas must be a mighty opponent if they can't beat him. As it were.

I don't think they're allowed to beat him.

[Julia]

I don't think they're allowed to beat him.

 

Doesn't seem to have stopped Josh.