The Duggars: In the Media and TLC

3girlsforus · September 19, 2015

If TLC had never come along, where would the Duggars be today? Would they be as famewhorish or would their lives had stayed the same?

Honestly I think it would have been worse. Not that TLC made it good, it just made it less bad in some key areas for the kids. I think all the girls over the age of 17 would be married by now whether they wanted to or not. To me if TLC prevented that then that's a good thing. I think JB is smart enough to know when the "courting" thing wandered a little too far into the 'selling your daughter' realm. I think Michelle would have been even more desperate to have more kids. With the show, she had her adoring fans telling her how amazing she is. That need would still have been there but would have had to come from and increasingly ridiculous family size. That's the only way she knows to be 'amazing'. I don't think much would have changed for Josh. He would still have married Anna and still cheated on her. Without the show it's possible he wouldn't have even gone to RU but I'm not sure if that falls under the bad or good category. Clearly RU isn't going to do diddly squat but at least Anna's getting time without him. Without the public eye my guess is she would have been told she was a lousy wife and Josh would continue to do what he wanted until she got better at it.

As scary as it sounds I think these repulsive things we see in the Duggars: JB arraigning marriage, poor education, uber control, etc, are actually tempered because of the public eye. Left to run amok it could have been worse.

Wasn't sure where to post this, but the Duggs are in the headline, in this story about Bill GotHard: Duggar Homeschool Leader's Facebook Page Bombarded With Sexual Abuse Allegations

This headline ticks me off. Gothard is a religious leader, not a homeschool leader. His organization based on his teaching may have developed a homeschool curriculum but his true evil lies in his religious teaching. This makes it sound like the sexual abuse has to do with homeschooling which isn't the case at all.

3girlsforus · September 19, 2015

"Homeschool Leader" seems an oxymoron.

I'm not sure why. There are homeschool leaders. For example, there is a woman who is a professor of writing and American literature at William and Mary. Over the years she has written books on classical homeschooling as well as history and writing curriculum for elementary and middle school children. She is considered a homeschool leader.

3girlsforus · September 19, 2015

I meant in the Duggar world of home schooling - no offense intended for homeschooling that actually educates children.

Ahh ok - I thought you meant because homeschoolers learn at home and aren't typically taught by outside people they don't have leaders.

If you think about it I guess Gothard is the Duggar's homeschool leader. He leads them into believing that education is pointless. Lemmings off the side of a cliff....

Chai · September 19, 2015

I'm in Boston and relieved they finally learned the identity of Baby Doe. In reading I learned the mother had two older children who were placed for adoption after her parental rights were terminated. That made me go looking up reasons for loosing parental rights. On the long sad list it included refusing to educate your child.

The Duggars have such low quality homeschooling I kind of wondered if they could loose their parental rights? Or it could be argued, they are giving them an education, no matter how poorly done it is.

(I wasnt sure where to put this post so i went with in the media. Please move it if it belongs elsewhere)

Tabbygirl521 · September 19, 2015

The Baby Doe story is so horrifying. I am not saying the Duggars are anything like these two "parents" but patriarchal systems are such welcoming atmospheres for a man who has abusive tendencies. Any time I read about a "father" or stepfather committing one of these atrocities, I wonder if they came from a patriarchal breeding ground. (I do realize that is not the only way such a person comes to be. But I do wonder about it - and about the "mothers" who aid and abet.)

Again, I am not accusing the Duggars of anything like this. And I have no idea about the perps in this poor baby's case.

I don't think they would ever lose parental rights. The kids, in my opinion, are woefully restricted. And a mind is a terrible thing to waste. But they certainly have a rudimentary education. I think the bigger problem is that virtually all ambition and curiosity seem to be squelched. Unless Jesus, of course.

JenCarroll · September 19, 2015

Wasn't sure where to post this, but the Duggs are in the headline, in this story about Bill GotHard: Duggar Homeschool Leader's Facebook Page Bombarded With Sexual Abuse Allegations

Bill Gothard is glad that God has been faithful to him. I couldn't make this sh*t up.

Julia · September 19, 2015

Bill Gothard is glad that God has been faithful to him. I couldn't make this sh*t up.

People commenting on Gawker are posting their deleted comments. I can't imagine how ol' Bill justifies the kind of thing he's exposing his mod to.

GeeGolly · September 19, 2015

Home schooling is much like public schooling, some are better than others. There is also a movement of unschooling. Each state has their own regulations on education, I believe Arkansas' are lax in comparison to other states, and I think I read that Massachusetts is somewhat stricter.

There is no way the Duggar children are at risk of being removed. And most of what bothers a lot of us posters is done within the Duggar's religion, and that gives them added protection.

Tabbygirl521 · September 19, 2015

People commenting on Gawker are posting their deleted comments. I can't imagine how ol' Bill justifies the kind of thing he's exposing his mod to.

No worries, it's just Satan. They can pray it away.

kokapetl · September 19, 2015

Duggars homeschooling and parenting is, at worst, subpar and negligent, but people, mainly sister moms, pick up that slack and keep it from devolving into outright abuse. It's massively unfair to the j'slaves, but they're adults at this point. CPS have cases that are far more urgent, they shouldn't be forced into diverting their limited resources because of tabloid attention on the Duggars. There's practically zero risk of the Duggars (JimChelle) losing their parental rights.

Edited September 19, 2015 by Kokapetl

Chai · September 19, 2015

I in no way meant any disrespect to the millons of families who work as hard and successfully as they do at their families homeschool.

I was speaking only about the Duggar woefully undereducated (from what ive seen on tv)children struggle with reading and learning multiplication tables etc years behind other children. Their level of education is so low that I was comparing it to parents who "refuse to educate"

Missy Vixen · September 19, 2015

We have a young friend who is now in grad school. She was homeschooled. Her mother has a teaching degree and her fifth year, which is necessary to teach in Washington State. She's also a reading specialist. Our young friend took the SAT all four years of her equivalent of high school and was also entered into the Running Start program, which is taking community college classes for one's last two years of high school. She's brilliant.

I am wondering what the effects on social services in the USA will be like over the next generation when the Quiverfull kids, with no appreciable education and "homeschooled", are unleashed on the workforce. I am also wondering if there will be legislation that can withstand the onslaught from the homeschoolers' legal organization stating that those who are being "homeschooled" or "unschooled" must take an equivalent of the SAT each year or be remanded to public school.

I believe it's safe to say that most of the Duggar children would not be able to make a living with the education they currently possess.

3girlsforus · September 19, 2015

We have a young friend who is now in grad school. She was homeschooled. Her mother has a teaching degree and her fifth year, which is necessary to teach in Washington State. She's also a reading specialist. Our young friend took the SAT all four years of her equivalent of high school and was also entered into the Running Start program, which is taking community college classes for one's last two years of high school. She's brilliant.

I am wondering what the effects on social services in the USA will be like over the next generation when the Quiverfull kids, with no appreciable education and "homeschooled", are unleashed on the workforce. I am also wondering if there will be legislation that can withstand the onslaught from the homeschoolers' legal organization stating that those who are being "homeschooled" or "unschooled" must take an equivalent of the SAT each year or be remanded to public school.

I believe it's safe to say that most of the Duggar children would not be able to make a living with the education they currently possess.

I think the percentage of Quiverfull families in this country is so small it won't really have much impact at all. Homeschooling is growing but not because there are more and more Quiverful families.

And I don't see the law changing to require SATs starting in the 9th grade. My daughters have done that but that isn't normal. Plus if you look at national averages for SAT scores in public school they are horrible so it would be very difficult to legislate that homeschoolers should all be above the national average.

Edited September 19, 2015 by 3girlsforus

frenchtoast · September 19, 2015

Don't forget there is a topic--The Duggars and Their World--to discuss how the Duggars homeschool. It's starting to get real off topic here in Duggars in the Media. More anecdotal homeschool discussion should go in the Small Talk topic.

Thanks!!

lookeyloo · September 19, 2015

http://www.people.com/article/duggar-family-dressed-pirates-krispy-kreme-free-doughnuts

Is this the right thread??

GeeGolly · September 19, 2015

http://www.people.com/article/duggar-family-dressed-pirates-krispy-kreme-free-doughnuts

Is this the right thread??

In another thread it said Anna is with her mom. If she is Mac & Mike aren't with her.

Churchhoney · September 19, 2015

Bill Gothard is glad that God has been faithful to him. I couldn't make this sh*t up.

Well, God gave him plenty of cash and a string of pretty young things to play footsie with, well into his creepy old age, and largely kept him from suffering any consequences at all for being such a dirty old manipulative dictator and hypocrite. And people give him special birthday cakes when he attends their weddings. Sounds like a pretty lucky life to me. I'm glad he was gracious enough to say "thank You."

Edited September 19, 2015 by Churchhoney

Zahdii · September 20, 2015

http://www.people.com/article/duggar-family-dressed-pirates-krispy-kreme-free-doughnuts

I'd be embarrassed to take 14 people to Krispy Kreme so we could walk away with 14 dozen free doughnuts.

JoanArc · September 20, 2015

Money's getting tighter than two coats of paint at Casa Duggar. That's probably everyone's next three meals. i wonder how much the pirate gear cost. Probably more than the doughnuts would've.

SomePity1066 · September 20, 2015

I'd be embarrassed to take 14 people to Krispy Kreme so we could walk away with 14 dozen free doughnuts.

Agreed 100%, Zahdii - there is something so smarmy, tacky, and bordering on dishonest about it that it makes my skin crawl ! I know all 19 Grifters and Counting aren't doing anything illegal here, per se, but it seems like a cheapskate cop out to converge en masse like that because they are, technically, obeying the rules.

They do the very same thing with "Kids Eat Free !" restaurants, and the embarrassment-by-proxy I felt made my face hot and my head swim. I'm sure the owner scrambled to make a sign reading "Limit Two Kids !" as soon as they left...

And, as someone noted before (sorry, can't seem to find it for some reason) are they really going to eat FOURTEEN dozen doughnuts ?!

Yes. Yes they are. "Kreme" is like "cream", which is kinda like milk, so it's good for your bones, y'all !

Loves2Dance · September 20, 2015

Amazing that they'll dress like pirates for doughnuts, but don't believe in costumes for Halloween. Duggar logic.

Without TLC, I think things would have been a million times worse for everyone but Josh. Without TLC and fame, Josh should have continues on with a scandal-free life and every side booty he wanted until the end of his life.

CofCinci · September 20, 2015

Amazing that they'll dress like pirates for doughnuts, but don't believe in costumes for Halloween. Duggar logic.

Without TLC, I think things would have been a million times worse for everyone but Josh. Without TLC and fame, Josh should have continues on with a scandal-free life and every side booty he wanted until the end of his life.

Without TLC Josh would still be working on the TTH.

Loves2Dance · September 20, 2015

Without TLC Josh would still be working on the TTH.

Very likely. But his scandal still wouldn't be out and he's still have a side piece.

Julia · September 20, 2015

The truly hilarious part of this is that Derick and the young Duggars just dressed up and invited People along while they celebrated one of the central mysteries of Pastafarianism.

SomePity1066 · September 20, 2015

The truly hilarious part of this is that Derick and the young Duggars just dressed up and invited People along while they celebrated one of the central mysteries of Pastafarianism.

You're KILLING me here, Julia ! Seriously, can I use that tomorrow ? I promise to give you proper credit. Pastafarianism - HA !!!

Amazing that they'll dress like pirates for doughnuts, but don't believe in costumes for Halloween. Duggar logic.

Loves2Dance, I KNOW, right ?!?! To me, I think JB (and maybe Michelle as well) would direct the J-Crew to do just about ANYTHING in order to score a payday. They can, as I've seen repeatedly over the last +/- decade, talk themselves into, out of, through, or around, just about anything. That's how I get to see a big ole' black bar across Michelle's KNEES, for Pete's sake, in the waterskiing episode, because it's just not modest enough that she's apparently wearing a turtleneck with a business suit, but we get the Full Monty, Triple-X treatment when poor Anna is filmed giving birth on the toilet. Jeez, that episode still gives me the willies...

Money's getting tighter than two coats of paint at Casa Duggar. That's probably everyone's next three meals. i wonder how much the pirate gear cost. Probably more than the doughnuts would've.

Again, it's Duggar Logic at work, Joan Arc ! Who wants to have, oh - I don't know... nutritious food, sheets for the beds, or shoes that no one else has worn, when you can have poorly put together, ill-conceived pirate costumes that you'll only use once !

http://www.people.com/article/duggar-family-dressed-pirates-krispy-kreme-free-doughnuts

Thank you very much for the link, lookeyloo ! Supremely snarkable pictures ! Extra special awesome bonus points for the J-Kid on the far left who appears to have dog shit on his face, the older J-Boy above him throwing out a Frank Stallone face that would scare Frank Stallone himself, the kid holding the "Arrr" sign on the right who seems to need an exorcism, and, finally, an underdressed, barefoot, and visibly constipated Josie at eight o'clock.

Star of the Day: Jill, giving her very best Animal House, "Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor ?!" toga party look without knowing it !

Julia · September 20, 2015

You're KILLING me here, Julia ! Seriously, can I use that tomorrow ? I promise to give you proper credit. Pastafarianism - HA !!!

Oh, hey, I couldn't make that up if I tried with both hands for a week. Derick Dillard, scourge of papal tyranny, just dressed a bunch of kids up and took part in a a holiday which has been adopted by people who oppose Creationism for a few pounds of fried dough.

http://www.venganza.org/2006/09/talk-like-a-pirate-day/

kandinski · September 20, 2015

I wonder if Michelle said Oh how precious I love Donuuuuutttss!and dug into the box lol

Edited September 20, 2015 by kandinski

Churchhoney · September 20, 2015

Without TLC, I think things would have been a million times worse for everyone but Josh.

On the other hand, after both a hot political career (ha) and a media-darling career fell through, maybe Jim Bob, Michelle and Jim Bob's mom (who I'm beginning to think is an equally guilty accomplice and enabler) might have been shocked into cleaning up their damn act and taking real steps to educate and support -- and maybe even limit the size of -- their family. ...... How long were the neighbors and fellow church members going to continue supporting the monstrous brood, anyway? Particularly knowing that JIm Bob had not only been a member of the state legislature but had been born into a business and some money? (I can dream, can't I?)

Edited September 20, 2015 by Churchhoney

BetyBee · September 20, 2015

http://www.people.com/article/duggar-family-dressed-pirates-krispy-kreme-free-doughnuts

Is this the right thread??

The comments are hysterical!

lookeyloo · September 20, 2015

Yes they are BetyBee. How do they even know what pirates allegedly wear if they just read the bible and don't watch tv?

Churchhoney · September 20, 2015

Yes they are BetyBee. How do they even know what pirates allegedly wear if they just read the bible and don't watch tv?

Jesus told them because he heard they intended to give 7 percent of the donuts to charity in his name. And post a photograph of it.

3girlsforus · September 20, 2015

It just amazes me how the Duggars can take what could have been perfectly fine and choose to do it the absolute worst way possible. They could have dressed up as a family and gotten 4 or 5 boxes of donuts. No problem. I'm not into pirates but I bet the kids had fun, especially since they don't normally get to dress up. I don't care that they can afford their own donuts. Krispy Kreme offers this and wants people to come and enjoy it. They could have gotten dressed up, gone to get 14 boxes of donuts, and gone to the nearest homeless shelter with them. It doesn't always have to be just healthy food. Just because you live in a shelter doesn't mean you don't want the occasional donut. When my daughter worked at Panera they donated to shelters nearly every evening and that stuff isn't any healthier than a donut. Again - this would have been fine. They could even have given the couple with the sign a box of donuts. They could have taken a picture of the family all dressed up. That would be fine too. But NO... they couldn't chose any of these combinations. They had to take a picture of themselves with the homeless people . Who does that?? I shutter to think what kind of pictures we are going to see from Derick and Jill when they get back on the mission field. Will they consider it off limits to post a picture of some poor woman's vagina as her baby emerges and Jill proclaims 'Look what I did'?

UGH

Edited September 20, 2015 by 3girlsforus

Liz Tudor · September 20, 2015

Will they consider it off limits to post a picture of some poor woman's vagina as her baby emerges and Jill proclaims 'Look what I did'?

no, because you pretty much just described Anna's delivery of Mackynzie!

3girlsforus · September 20, 2015

no, because you pretty much just described Anna's delivery of Mackynzie!

Very true - I almost responded that it was Anna's choice to allow it but let's face it. She didn't have any more of a choice than some woman in South America will if Jill wants to take a picture of her.

Churchhoney · September 20, 2015

For every family except the Duggars, I think film crews coming into the home and filming the family is very bad for the children involved.

I think that the Duggar children are the exception. I think that JB and Michelle do not think clearly and use very poor judgment. I think the film crew served as protection for the Duggar children. Left to their own devices JB and Michelle are free to make their horrible parenting decisions without any checks and balances at all. Poor kids.

Yeah, see, in my view, the television just worsened the dumb decisions. They wouldn't have educated any worse without it. They might even have been educated better, since Michelle might have had more time to be bored and spend on their schooling. And television certainly encouraged Boob to double down on his view that his family is a mission and to double down on hushing up and denying every potentially negative thing on the grounds that they needed good pr to get and keep the tv gig, in my opinion.

The only clear disadvantage I can see to having no tv cameras is that there likely would have been more whippings. But the world is full of and always has been full of people who grew up with far worse whippings than I expect any of the Duggar kids experienced, and it's truly not the worst thing that can happen to a kid. (Not that it's good. But compared to lousy to no schooling; indoctrination into a complete fantasy world that's utterly unfit for life in current society; indoctrination into the idea that your family and parents are, just as is, perfect because they get high tv ratings; and a near-total foreclosing of all real opportunities, it's not nearly as significant for the future, in my view.)

Plus, if the kids are being raised mainly by sister moms and there are just too many for the parents to chase after, that's going to limit the physical punishment. It might not, if the older boys had been put in charge, as happens in some families, because they can really knock you around. But I don't think Jana, Jill and even Jessa would have meted out anything worse than -- and quite possibly not even as bad as -- 90 percent of the population in every corner of the world was exposed to before 1900.

In my opinion, the worst thing that can happen to a kid is that it gets a completely screwed-up idea of what the world is like and that its parents' screwed-up ideas are encouraged to worsen with time. And this is what I think that reality tv did to them all. Michelle and Boob went from very little grasp of reality to zero grasp of reality, and the kids grew up having no grasp of reality from the starting gun. And the tv cameras also much heightened Boob's and Michelle's insistence that everyone in the family completely deny virtually all of their real feelings, thoughts and inclinations and thus completely falsify their lives. Everything they are, know and believe ends up phony with those tv cameras there, in my opinion.

Edited September 20, 2015 by Churchhoney

JenCarroll · September 20, 2015

Well, God gave him plenty of cash and a string of pretty young things to play footsie with, well into his creepy old age, and largely kept him from suffering any consequences at all for being such a dirty old manipulative dictator and hypocrite. And people give him special birthday cakes when he attends their weddings. Sounds like a pretty lucky life to me. I'm glad he was gracious enough to say "thank You."

It's more the word 'faithful' I have an issue with. Isn't he supposed to have faith in God, not the other way around?

Churchhoney · September 20, 2015

It's more the word 'faithful' I have an issue with. Isn't he supposed to have faith in God, not the other way around?

I think he means "faithful" in the sense that God always stuck by him and was there in his hour of need and so on, the way you're supposed to be faithful to your spouse and so on. Since he, BG, has faith in God, God has always in return been faithful to him. That's how I read it, anyway.

Edited September 20, 2015 by Churchhoney

zenme · September 20, 2015

Too bad the Duggars didn't coordinate Pirate Day with a wedding. Then all they would have to do is serve milk and coffee.

sometimesy · September 20, 2015

People (magazine) still romancing the Duggs. WTF. Is there a still a spinoff in the works?

Edited September 20, 2015 by sometimesy

queenanne · September 20, 2015

Disclaimer: I know nothing about this ministry and haven't evaluated the theology, and it's a trifle long; but as I'm all about education, here is a sermon on "the faithfulness of God":

http://www.pursuingthetruth.org/sermons/files/godsfaithfulness.htm

Churchhoney · September 20, 2015

People (magazine) still romancing the Duggs. WTF. Is there a still a spinoff in the works?

I think it may just be media inertia. 24 hours a day of potentially limitless online space to fill, and they've been doing the Duggars for a long time, so they can write those stories supercheaply. Takes about 10 minutes maybe. And it still gets hits.

To fill the same space with something different requires somebody to go look for something different and report on it and write it. .... And because it's different, it probably won't get as many clicks. And fewer clicks for an expenditure of more employee time and dollars is not good. .... That's what I'm telling myself anyway.

MonicaM · September 20, 2015

People (magazine) still romancing the Duggs. WTF. Is there a still a spinoff in the works?

I think it's kind of a circle affect. The Duggar's know they've lost a lot of public support, and that their fame and fortune is dwindling, so they make pathetic, laughable attempts to stay in the public eye. People magazine reports on their efforts to stay famous. The editors at People don't care if their readers love or hate the Duggar's, as long as they bring hits to their website or sales to their magazine.

Oldernowiser · September 20, 2015

Okay, so of all the things I really, really dislike about their whole schtick, their endless fuckery with the English language is way up there on the list. "God is faithful," like what, he's Gothard's Golden retriever?

If I were God, I would so smite his ass.

Edited September 20, 2015 by Oldernowiser

JenCarroll · September 20, 2015

I think it may just be media inertia. 24 hours a day of potentially limitless online space to fill, and they've been doing the Duggars for a long time, so they can write those stories supercheaply. Takes about 10 minutes maybe. And it still gets hits.

To fill the same space with something different requires somebody to go look for something different and report on it and write it. .... And because it's different, it probably won't get as many clicks. And fewer clicks for an expenditure of more employee time and dollars is not good. .... That's what I'm telling myself anyway.

I think this is essentially accurate. Sad, but true.

JoanArc · September 20, 2015

For every family except the Duggars, I think film crews coming into the home and filming the family is very bad for the children involved.

I think that the Duggar children are the exception. I think that JB and Michelle do not think clearly and use very poor judgment. I think the film crew served as protection for the Duggar children. Left to their own devices JB and Michelle are free to make their horrible parenting decisions without any checks and balances at all. Poor kids.

The crew didn't help Josh's kids.

CarolMK · September 20, 2015

I find it highly amusing that the Duggars dressed as pirates for free donuts ...do they even know the history or pirates and the horrible things they have done to people? Yet they feel women should wear skirts at all times to please God...what's pleasing to God in dressing like a pirate? The hypocrisy, it's just amazing.

3girlsforus · September 20, 2015

I find it highly amusing that the Duggars dressed as pirates for free donuts ...do they even know the history or pirates and the horrible things they have done to people? Yet they feel women should wear skirts at all times to please God...what's pleasing to God in dressing like a pirate? The hypocrisy, it's just amazing.

I get a lot of grief for not liking 'talk like a pirate' day. It's not like I go around telling people they shouldn't find it fun but it really bugs me that we continue to act like pirates are funny dressed guys who like to drink and talk funny. They were bad in history and they are horrible now. I have to wonder if the Duggars even realize there are modern day pirates.

JenCarroll · September 20, 2015

If I were God, I would so smite his ass.

Me too.

Aaaand this is probably why I never get to be God.

Tabbygirl521 · September 20, 2015

Okay, so of all the things I really, really dislike about their whole schtick, their endless fuckery with the English language is way up there on the list. "God is faithful," like what, he's Gothard's Golden retriever?

If I were God, I would so smite his ass.

Well, you know - if you endlessly yammer about God, he will reward you with stuff. Not peace or serenity or any of that bullshit. No. You will get ass-kissing and admiration and fame and influence and money. The best part for GotHard, since he is so sure of having God on the line and always knowing what's right, is that he doesn't even have to apologize for anything. He can just continue playing the martyr.

Churchhoney · September 20, 2015

I find it highly amusing that the Duggars dressed as pirates for free donuts ...do they even know the history or pirates and the horrible things they have done to people? Yet they feel women should wear skirts at all times to please God...what's pleasing to God in dressing like a pirate? The hypocrisy, it's just amazing.

My bet is that they don't know the history of much of anything. The main teacher in this family has been Michelle Duggar, for whom the term know-nothing might have been invented. And she was succeeded by incurious bonehead Jessa, who got her education mostly (or maybe entirely) from Michelle Duggar. Pretty sure they don't know or care about the history of pirates or anything else.

Sign In

The Duggars: In the Media and TLC

Recommended Posts

Link to comment

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Popular Posts

cmr2014

Churchhoney

WhitneyWhit

Posted Images

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment